March 12, 2025 • 32 mins
Are smart phones making our kids sick?
Join me in my interview withJoanna Bertken, student assistance coordinator and school psychologist for the Bozeman School District,
Johanna Bertken is a Nationally Credentialed School Psychologist and Student Assistance Coordinator for Bozeman Public Schools. She focuses on student mental health, bullying, violence, suicide, and substance use. Recently, she worked with the district’s Wellbeing Committee to assess local trends in depression and anxiety and develop strategies to support students. One key recommendation from the committee is a district-wide shift to entirely cell-phone-free schools from K-12.
Today, Joanna explains how smartphone use is directly linked to alarming increases in teen anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation since 2010.
In this episode, we mention the Wait Till 8th Campaign: https://www.waituntil8th.org/
Key Highlights from Today's Episode Include:
• Cell phones and social media target dopamine systems through intermittent reinforcement schedules similar to gambling addiction.
• Teenagers average 7 hours and 22 minutes daily on phones – equivalent to a full-time job.
• we are drastically underestimating the risks online, while overestimating the risks of free-play
• Major depression has increased 145% among teen girls and 161% among boys since 2010.
• Algorithms deliver gender-specific harmful content: violence for boys, appearance-based content for girls.
• Wait Until 8th campaign helps parents connect with others delaying smartphone access.
• Many teens themselves want adults to establish boundaries they struggle to set themselves.
• Parents should consider alternatives like limited-function watches instead of smartphones.
• Replace "phones" with "cigarettes" in conversations to recognize how abnormal our permissiveness has become!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So we're so lucky to have Joanna Birkin join us today
.
As the student assistancecoordinator here in the Bozeman
School District and as a schoolpsychologist, she is leading
efforts here in our communityaround cell phone use and being
on the ground floor working withfamilies and students.
Joanna, what's at risk here?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Joanna.
What's at risk here?
Well, I think it's not too muchto say that the cell phones are
making our kids sick.
We've seen increasing trends ofexacerbated anxiety, depression
, suicidal thinking, and I thinkthat this is something, a new
norm that we can either acceptor we can make a different
(00:49):
choice.
And if we continue on saying wehave no power over the way that
the role that technology playsin our lives, then that's what
will happen.
We won't have a role.
We're saying that that's whatwe're willing to accept and that
is kids' lives.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Can't wait to unpack this more.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at
the same time and give you theexact steps to be able to parent
(01:33):
in ways that are more realisticand effective and, for that
reason, finally feel sustainable.
Welcome.
So I'm super passionate aboutthis issue as a mom of a nine
(01:54):
and 10 year old.
We are luckily still in thatspace before having phones in
the hands of our kids, and soprevention feels like so
valuable and to think about howwe can crowdsource.
How can we start a movementthat is more informed, not just
more restrictive?
I know you're on the same pagewith me.
It's not about being morerestrictive, it's being more
(02:15):
informed about how to managephone use and phone ownership in
a way that is going to benefitour kids better and make sure
that we're not just handing thema ticking time bomb.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Absolutely.
I think right now we're in areally exciting period of time
where we are seeing publicopinion change on this issue
really rapidly really came to myattention in around 2017 with
(02:52):
the release of the book iGen byJean M Twenge.
I'm definitely pronouncing thatincorrectly, but that book came
out in 2017 and it was sort ofgetting started this
conversation around some of thechallenges that the younger
generations are facing,specifically with, you know,
regulating phone use and theimpact of phone use on social
skills and mental health andoverall well being.
(03:15):
That book and then that wasreally quickly followed up and
I'm not sure the year of thisone, but dopamine nation also
focuses on the ways in whichsocial media companies and
different products online aretargeting dopamine.
(03:36):
They're trying to act upon ourmore addictive tendencies, our
desire to get that feedbackreally readily and feel that
immediate, instant gratificationthat we get from our phones.
And then I also read theAnxious Generation as a
recommendation from our district, so that book was read by our
(03:59):
upper district administration,our superintendent was given out
to our board members to readand this book is actually
gaining some popularity in waysthat those other books never did
.
It's just a really excitingtime to be inspired about this
issue and talking about it withparents, who are all really
hoping to know you know what allthis information means and how
(04:23):
they can change their habits andexpectations at home, and what
schools can do to limit theimpact of smartphones on student
well-being.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Absolutely.
Here we are, 2025, like thecharts in the anxious generation
are just, hearts in the anxiousgeneration are just, frankly,
off the charts.
You know, they're just thematerial.
The statistics are so clearthat we cannot deny it and I
think we have enough anecdotalinformation.
Most people, whether it's theirown child or a niece or a
(04:58):
nephew or a cousin that we'vewatched, struggle with social
media use and that addictioncycle that you were talking
about, the dopamine that, likethis, isn't all for good.
It was maybe intended at firstand we had beliefs that it
connects us more, but now wealso see the flip side.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's really interesting, yeah,
because the conversations thatwere happening in 2017 were more
around like how do we utilizethis amazing tool that we have
at our disposal?
And we were actually talkingabout how to integrate cell
phones better into our schoolday and to how are we going to
integrate cell phones into ourassignments and teach kids how
(05:39):
to use these amazing tools thatwe have.
And the narrative has changedso much since then, largely
because of this the availabilityof longitudinal data, which we
didn't have available to us then, and this data shows.
It's pretty hard to see thisand not see the relationship
between the data that we'reseeing now and cell phone use.
(06:03):
Specifically, jonathan Haidt,who is the author of the Anxious
Generation, shows the dramaticincrease in anxiety and rates of
depression and suicide attemptsamong young people since 2010,
which is around the same time asthe iPhone's front-facing and
(06:25):
when Instagram was gainingpopularity.
So I know we had social mediabefore and we had cell phones
before, but really this timewhen it came together, in that
we have social media availableto us any given time and the
expectation is that we have topresent ourselves in a certain
way at any given time for anaudience of people.
(06:46):
It just is incredibly teenagersare already so vulnerable to
that perception.
You know, we know that they'vebeen targeted by this and it's
really impacting their mentalhealth really significantly.
Some of those charts I had thesame reaction to them that many
people do, which is like it'spretty indisputable that at
(07:08):
least there is a correlationbetween those changes in
technology and increased ratesof mental health challenges, and
not just here in the UnitedStates but across the world.
So, percentage of US teens withmajor depression there's been a
145% increase among girls since2010 and 161% increase among
(07:33):
boys since 2010 in self-reporteddepression rates, and I will
say that's a nationwide study.
Our data here locally is verysimilar.
It reflects those same sorts ofchanges here in our community
as are being seen around thenation.
Similarly, us teens admitted tohospitals for non-fatal
(07:58):
self-harm Since 2010, there'sbeen a 188% increase among girls
and 48% increase among boys.
And I'd love to say, oh good,only a 40% increase among boys.
But if you look at the suiciderate among young people aged 15
to 19, there's been a dramaticrise in suicide rates of young
(08:22):
boys and it's always beensomething that we're aware of
that boys, despite attemptingsuicide less frequently, will
die by suicide more often thangirls do because they use more
lethal means.
So it makes sense that we'd seean increase in non-fatal
self-harm among boys and thisreally dramatic and extremely
(08:46):
concerning rise in the suiciderate among boys.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
It's so disheartening , you know, having a
nine-year-old girl, an11-year-old boy and knowing
those numbers are true for theage that they're heading into,
you know every parent kind oftakes a sigh of like, just, you
know frustration.
And let's dive a little bitinto like what's the connection?
(09:13):
Because, like you said, it'scorrelational.
It's hard to prove causation,but I know there's definitely
some concrete thoughts about whythis is correlated, one being
the dopamine addiction like youtalked about.
It is just those.
There's been many reports thatshow how much, how good
technology companies have becomeat being able to prey on this
(09:37):
dopamine addiction cycle, andthat you know the fact that as
soon as you're about to possiblyturn off an app, it maybe gives
you a new alert, those littlepings they set you up to want to
get notifications so thatyou're enjoying this little hit
of like Ooh, someone wants tocontact me, someone has a
response to me, that and adesire to want to keep checking
(10:00):
in as things are offered liveand we don't want to miss out.
I mean, it's just, it's allintentional.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, and they've gotten so good at this.
They've they've fundedincredible research that has
given them information on howbest to keep people on the apps.
They operated on anintermittent reinforcement
schedule, which is the mostpowerful reinforcement schedule
there is.
It's like gambling.
Who knows when I could pick upmy phone and there'll be a like
(10:27):
on my last post or there'll be amessage from my friend.
And even though those thingsare, you know dopamine.
You know the addictivetendencies.
Those exist in adults too, butwe know, given brain development
, young people are far moresusceptible to the type of
dysregulating activities thatoperate on our dopamine system
(10:49):
that are present in these apps.
Autoscroll is a fairly newdevelopment.
That's the function onInstagram and TikTok that
requires very little action fromyou to keep scrolling through
content, the fact that there'smildly interesting content, and
then they'll throw somethinginto the algorithm that really
(11:13):
hits that dopamine.
So maybe the next one is goingto be the most interesting one.
Maybe the next one is going tobe the most interesting one.
Also, dangerously, a lot of thethings that keep people on
especially young people on theseapps is that the algorithm will
default to things that are forboys, tend to be more violent
content.
There's a lot of clips of caraccidents and people falling
(11:36):
over and you know bicycleaccidents and those escalate to
some pretty violent, disturbingcontent For some students.
Really quickly they can getaccess to those.
For girls it tends to be moreself-esteem based.
There's been a real uptick inthe markets for anti-aging
creams.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, and starting Botox in your twenties.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, I've been too.
I'm too old for preventativeBotox.
Preventative Botox, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Oh, and the makeup tutorials and all these things.
It's like this.
It just like furtherintensifies the focus on how you
look and how you appear toothers.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yep, and, and that kind of content is really
addictive, in addition todamaging self-esteem and
distorting a student's worldview.
And so, while we don't have asmuch information pointing to the
causality of phones impactingmental health, there have been
some studies more recently thatdefinitely suggest that's what's
(12:42):
going on.
So in 2019, there was a journalor an article in Pediatrics
that demonstrated that teensusing social media more
frequently over a two-yearperiod of time were more likely
to develop depressive symptoms.
And then there's another studythat was in Nature
Communications in 2022 thatidentified specific age windows,
(13:04):
specifically from age 12 to 14for girls, when social media is
particularly harmful.
They've also had some studiesthat show that limiting or
removing access to social mediaimproves mental health.
They've also had some studiesthat show that limiting or
removing access to social mediaimproves mental health.
So this was an article that waspublished in the Journal of
Social and Clinical Psychologyin 2018.
And reducing social media useto 30 minutes a day led to lower
(13:24):
anxiety, depression andloneliness.
And then they've also anotherstudy that I'd just like to
point to is that the more timestudents report spending on
social media correlates withgreater mental health symptoms.
So this was in psychiatry in2019.
, and it showed essentially thatteens using their phones for
five or more hours a day weretwice as likely to report
(13:45):
depressive symptoms compared tothose using phones less than one
hour a day.
So these are all suggestive ofa causal relationship between
smartphone use and mental healthissues.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So get this, joanna.
Just by Googling it, I couldsee that the actual the average
number of hours that a teen istypically on their phone is
seven hours and 22 minutes perday.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It's more than a full .
It's like a full-time job.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's a full-time job and they're doing it like it's a
full-time job, their commitmentto it, their dedication, and so
, yeah, if you have a full-timejob of school and a full-time
job on your phone, there's notspace for a lot of other things,
right?
This is starting to affectfriendships, dating, real life,
social skills, the desire to,you know, be in relationship in
(14:40):
real life, and what are?
What are we seeing in terms ofhow that's affecting our teens?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, I mean, it's really shocking to me, walking
through the halls of our highschools here in town, the way
that young people arecommunicating with one another.
It looks a lot different nowthan what I remember, and you
know what I remember wasn'talways.
You know the peak of socialskills.
(15:06):
Yeah, but a lot of what they donow is show each other what's
on their phones.
Yeah, of what they do now isshow each other what's on their
phones.
How they're communicating is.
Look at this funny video I saw,or look at these photos I took,
and you know, some of thatmight be healthy, but it is
seeming like it replaces a lotof the more natural
(15:26):
conversations that people havethat aren't mediated by cell
phones.
So even when they're I meanthey're communicating all the
time via, you know, social media, but then when they're together
they're not even able to bethere with each other.
They still have to have thoseconversations mediated by some
sort of technology.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So what can be done?
What do you recommend for thoseof us that are parents of the
kids eight to 10?
And what do you recommend ofthe parents of junior, high or
high schoolers?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, I wish I knew the answer.
I know that.
You know parenting takes abalance, and you know being the
title of your podcast isprobably hinting at this
sustainable parenting.
There was a parenting crisisdeclared in 2024 by the Surgeon
General about how hard it is andhow bad it is for your health,
(16:19):
so I hate to be another personbeing like oh, you're doing it
wrong or you should do it thisway.
I don't have any majorrecommendations like that.
I will say, though, that ingeneral, we way overestimate the
dangers in regular life,in-person interactions.
(16:39):
For years and years, we've hadconcerns about stranger danger,
and the idea of a kid out atnight is a scary concept or
doing independent things thereare dangerous people in our
neighborhoods, those sort ofnarratives and then so we we way
overestimate that the danger isthere, and we way underestimate
(17:00):
the dangers online.
A lot of the things that evenyou know mental health issues
and the addictive tendenciesaside the predators have found
out where the kids are, andthey're not out on the streets,
they're not playing in the parks, they're on the phones, and
having easy access to them is.
(17:22):
It's really scary, and we'restill learning how, what kind of
protections are needed andpushing companies to put in
those protections.
But I would encourage parentsto try to flip that narrative.
There are more dangers onlinethan I think a lot of people
know and there are a lot ofbenefits of being independent
(17:45):
and having opportunities to playand socialize in the real world
that a lot of people are, youknow.
Because of our fears andanxieties about the dangers,
we've been maybe perhaps toorestrictive and the pendulum has
swung too far in the otherdirection.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, and of course those go together.
Right, If you're like, well,you can't go outside, but I need
to work from home or I need tocook dinner, then it's easy to
think of just putting a child onan iPad or give them a phone
earlier and so, or give them thephone to think that's the only
way they can have moreindependence also.
But we live in a space wherethere there are a lot of other
(18:25):
alternatives.
If we can seek watches orthings like that, that's one
thing we've opted for in ourfamily is just a Fitbit watch
that can call or text just theadults we have put on the phone,
not even other friends that itis.
There are some alternatives tostill having them, so we're not
(18:47):
so worried when they're awayfrom us and I guess, yeah, just
back to and then seeking waysthat they can.
They don't have to be insidethe house on an iPad, Can they
be outside and having a littlemore old school childhood play.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, one of the recommendations from the anxious
generation is not only morerestrictions on cell phone use,
but greater opportunities forrisky play, which is something
we're struggling with as a, as aschool district.
What does it look like to haveunsupervised play at school?
(19:24):
It's something that, you know,has been the opposite of what
we've been trying to accomplishfor many years, but the
opportunity for kids to solvetheir own problems, for them to
have conflict and get through it, for them to, you know, find
out how much they can actuallydo on their own, is a really
(19:47):
positive thing for childhooddevelopment.
So we're just trying to findsome balance.
I think one of the majorbarriers that parents are up
against is the social norm ofproviding kids with cell phones
at an early age.
Phones at an early age.
(20:09):
If your child is the only onewithout a cell phone, it is very
hard to have to have thatongoing battle every day of but
mom.
I'm all my friends have it.
I'm getting left out of myfriends' social connections
because I'm the only one whodoesn't have a cell phone.
So I think that the realsolutions are, unfortunately,
you know, those broader socialand cultural changes and
(20:31):
expectations that are both hardto accomplish but can allow an
individual parent to make adifferent choice for their child
, because right now it almostdoesn't feel like a choice.
I think for a lot of parentsyou know, as long as they have
that argument of I'm the onlyone it feels like you know
you're, by choosing somethingdifferent, you're isolating your
(20:54):
kid.
So there's a there's a campaigncalled Wait Until Eighth that I
would recommend that parentslook into.
It's you sign a pledge thatsays that your child will not
have access to social media or asmartphone until eighth grade,
(21:17):
and it allows you to enter yourschool that you attend and
connect you to other parentsthat have signed the pledge.
It also allows you to send outa message to other parents in
your student's classroom sayinghey, I've signed this pledge,
would you like to?
(21:37):
So it's really an effort to tryto reestablish control over the
social expectations of when acell phone is appropriate,
because that wasn't a decisionthat we ever made very
thoughtfully.
It's a decision that seems likewe all fell into, and so it's
giving us an opportunity to kindof get back ahead of it and say
(21:58):
this is when is a time that wecan feel more comfortable giving
our child access to this.
And there is some research.
I mean, eighth grade is not youknow.
All of a sudden they shouldhave the whole thing.
You know, I think I hear backfrom a lot of parents who say
you know well, how are theygoing to regulate on a
smartphone if they've neverlearned how?
(22:21):
If I just give them asmartphone in eighth grade,
aren't they going to have issuesmanaging that responsibility?
And the answer is absolutelyyes.
So again, even though you knowwe're waiting until eighth grade
, you still need to kind ofscaffold usage so that the child
learns how to use itresponsibly and manage their own
(22:42):
time on it responsibly andmanage their own time on it.
And because they're in eighthgrade and their brains are not
fully developed, there stillneeds to be some parent
oversight and restrictions onthe way that they're using those
devices.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, I went to a local parent night where some
local police officers werespeaking on this topic and one
of the things that the mainpolice officer kept saying again
and again and again was like,be a nosy parent Like you can't.
It is not.
Like you said, if we're lookingat dangers, like there are so
many possible dangers here, youwould not just send your kid you
(23:19):
know out with a gun and be likeI guess you're gonna figure it
out as you go.
You would say you know, bereally supervising and teaching
and guiding, and I think thesame is true certainly here of
just it's okay to be nosy.
This is not a privacy thingthat they're just entitled to
have.
You never look at havingagreements about how you're able
(23:39):
to look at what might be ontheir phone and what they're
texting.
And obviously with the caveatthat there's so many ways kids
know how to get around theirparents being able to see, you
know, being on apps that arehidden under calculator, the
calculator on the phone, and youknow.
So parents, beware, you maythink that you know what's going
on in the phone, but you also,your kids, they're, they're so
(24:03):
clever they can just Google andthey find out from their friends
all these workarounds, ways toget around, even time blockers
that you put on there.
So it's a challenging kind ofwhack-a-mole.
I've heard a lot of parents sayas soon as you figure out one
way to stop how they got aroundyour boundary, there may be a
new way they've found.
So again, I think that justbacks it up to like so why put
(24:25):
this challenge in our handsbefore we absolutely have to?
You know, I think if there'sany other possible solution to
the thing you want for your kid,let's try to pursue those
routes, because it's just sochallenging to monitor, to keep
having boundaries with um withwhen it is in their hands.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, and they keep pushing it, in large part
because of you know theaddictive nature of these apps.
And because they are notdevelopmentally ready for this
particular challenge.
So when I talk to parent groups, a lot of what I hear back is,
first of all, a lot of supportfor the ideas in the anxious
(25:11):
generation and for solving thisproblem, but then also the
question like well, why don't wethen, knowing that these are,
you know it's hard toself-regulate around these
devices why don't we spend moretime investing in teaching kids
how to self-regulate?
And I'm all for that.
I think that could happen intandem with more restrictions
(25:35):
and more supervision.
But it does seem to me likesaying you know, okay, that
plate of cocaine in front ofyour child like they should
learn more self-regulationaround the cocaine and you're
like well, they're not.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
their brains are not capable of of you know right
Once you've sniffed it, likeyour, your chemistry is driving
you.
It's not always a consciouschoice to still keep going back
to the thing.
Completely, joanna, I can't.
I couldn't agree more.
I think it's it's expecting toomuch of them too soon.
And so I can tell you in mytherapy work with with families
(26:13):
that I'll hear that too, likedon't, we need to start soon
Because this is going to be apart of their lives.
They need to know how to manageit and it's like, yes, but
they're going to need to learnhow to manage a lot of really
adult things in their lives,like sex and drugs and alcohol.
And that doesn't mean you startit early so that they can get
there.
You wait until their brains aremore developmentally able to
(26:35):
have the brain function to evenpotentially take in self-control
.
You know the whole back toprefrontal lobe isn't fully
developed till your late 20s orearly 30s.
So if we're looking for them tohave better self control with a
highly addictive substancereally what it is in our phones
that's not really fair to them.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Because of that brain development and lack of a fully
developed prefrontal cortex,they're predisposed to risk.
And what does risk look like inthe real world versus what does
risk look like on a phone, on asocial media website?
What risk looks like on socialmedia is talking to dangerous
(27:21):
people, it's sending nakedpictures, it's asking for
illicit substances.
Risk online is because youdon't know who else is, who
you're talking to and what theirmotivations are.
It carries a lot more risk thanI think a lot of people believe
(27:42):
and kids are not.
They're not faced with that allthe time in the real world
without adult support and I feellike a lot of the things that
happen online because of theprivacy around it, people like
the kids, when something happens, they seem very hesitant to
reach out to adults for supportwith stuff that's happening
online.
Online that's, I mean,certainly something that we can
(28:05):
work on in tandem, but again,because they're not necessarily
developmentally ready for theresponsibilities of these phones
and the types of conversationsthey're having about sex and
drugs, and those things are nothappening with kids their same
age, which would be if they were, you know, having them with
their peers that were less ableto support than we would be in a
(28:30):
typical situation.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, so besides the directive of getting involved in
a wait till eighth campaign,which I know people can do
anywhere nationally, any otherpoints of action you want to
direct listeners to?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So my advice to those folks that have older kids is
you know, yes, we can.
You know, treat this with some.
You know we're going to try torationalize with them.
Here's why we're doing whatwe're doing what we're doing,
(29:09):
and I would even use some of theinformation and data from the
anxious generation to guidethose conversations I shared
with you.
We had some high schoolstudents with us on the
well-being committee.
We had four students from twofrom each high school that both
genders represented somedifferent age groups.
It was unanimous among thatgroup that they wanted relief
from the phones.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
They feel the addiction and the negative sides
of it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, I think that they can tell that it's
anxiety producing.
They can tell that it's notgood for their social
interactions.
But because this has been inthe same way that we've
interpreted it, this is a socialnorm.
We don't really have a choice.
They feel the same way.
My social life is on my phone,so they're asking us for help.
(29:54):
I'm going to quote one of thestudents, and I'm going to quote
her poorly, but at the boardmeeting she shared with the
board members there's adifference between peacekeepers
and peacemakers, and we need youto be peacemakers, so because
we can't do it on our own, andso we need you to make the rules
(30:16):
to help us.
And so I think that, whilethat's a hard ask, and sometimes
you need to go slow to gofaster, however that quote goes,
they want our help and that'sour responsibility right now.
As for younger kids just goingback to what you were saying
(30:37):
about, like you know, we've cometo depend on them for
convenience.
We have examples of cellphone-free schools.
Most of our elementary schoolsare cell phone-free.
Very few kids have those and westill get the kids the cleats
when they need them.
You're still able to accessyour kid if you need to, we can
replicate those same models inhigh school and in middle school
(30:57):
and you know whatever.
To work with your schools,because I again think that the
building trust part is soessential in this to be partners
with parents and help thisbecome the new norm.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yes, well, thank you so much.
I am just so grateful for yourefforts for our kids to have the
peacemakers, like you're saying, be able to say we are going to
do that parental role to giveyou that safer environment so
you can thrive.
And certainly that falls inline with everything I'm about
(31:37):
here.
You know, sustainable parentingis about kindness and firmness
at the same time, and kids arewanting those safe, protective,
loving boundaries from us, andthis is one more place that it's
important to do so.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I think anytime you're talking about phones.
If you just replace phones withthe word cigarettes or some
other sort of addictivesubstance, a lot of the way we
talk about them suddenly seemsvery strange.
They really like it.
They really like it.
They really need it.
All their friends are doing it.
Yeah right, so it's time wetake away the cigarettes.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, I could not agree more.
Thank you for that.
We need that dose of reality.
I really appreciate it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, Joanne.
I really, really am so grateful.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me and for getting
this message out.
So we're so lucky to have Joanna Birkin join us today
.
As the student assistancecoordinator here in the Bozeman
School District and as a schoolpsychologist, she is leading
efforts here in our communityaround cell phone use and being
on the ground floor working withfamilies and students.
Joanna, what's at risk here?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Joanna.
What's at risk here?
Well, I think it's not too muchto say that the cell phones are
making our kids sick.
We've seen increasing trends ofexacerbated anxiety, depression
, suicidal thinking, and I thinkthat this is something, a new
norm that we can either acceptor we can make a different
(00:49):
choice.
And if we continue on saying wehave no power over the way that
the role that technology playsin our lives, then that's what
will happen.
We won't have a role.
We're saying that that's whatwe're willing to accept and that
is kids' lives.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Can't wait to unpack this more.
Hello and welcome to theSustainable Parenting Podcast.
Let me tell you, friend, thisplace is different.
We fill that gap between gentleparenting and harsh discipline
that's really missing to parentwith kindness and firmness at
the same time and give you theexact steps to be able to parent
(01:33):
in ways that are more realisticand effective and, for that
reason, finally feel sustainable.
Welcome.
So I'm super passionate aboutthis issue as a mom of a nine
(01:54):
and 10 year old.
We are luckily still in thatspace before having phones in
the hands of our kids, and soprevention feels like so
valuable and to think about howwe can crowdsource.
How can we start a movementthat is more informed, not just
more restrictive?
I know you're on the same pagewith me.
It's not about being morerestrictive, it's being more
(02:15):
informed about how to managephone use and phone ownership in
a way that is going to benefitour kids better and make sure
that we're not just handing thema ticking time bomb.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Absolutely.
I think right now we're in areally exciting period of time
where we are seeing publicopinion change on this issue
really rapidly really came to myattention in around 2017 with
(02:52):
the release of the book iGen byJean M Twenge.
I'm definitely pronouncing thatincorrectly, but that book came
out in 2017 and it was sort ofgetting started this
conversation around some of thechallenges that the younger
generations are facing,specifically with, you know,
regulating phone use and theimpact of phone use on social
skills and mental health andoverall well being.
(03:15):
That book and then that wasreally quickly followed up and
I'm not sure the year of thisone, but dopamine nation also
focuses on the ways in whichsocial media companies and
different products online aretargeting dopamine.
(03:36):
They're trying to act upon ourmore addictive tendencies, our
desire to get that feedbackreally readily and feel that
immediate, instant gratificationthat we get from our phones.
And then I also read theAnxious Generation as a
recommendation from our district, so that book was read by our
(03:59):
upper district administration,our superintendent was given out
to our board members to readand this book is actually
gaining some popularity in waysthat those other books never did
.
It's just a really excitingtime to be inspired about this
issue and talking about it withparents, who are all really
hoping to know you know what allthis information means and how
(04:23):
they can change their habits andexpectations at home, and what
schools can do to limit theimpact of smartphones on student
well-being.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Absolutely.
Here we are, 2025, like thecharts in the anxious generation
are just, hearts in the anxiousgeneration are just, frankly,
off the charts.
You know, they're just thematerial.
The statistics are so clearthat we cannot deny it and I
think we have enough anecdotalinformation.
Most people, whether it's theirown child or a niece or a
(04:58):
nephew or a cousin that we'vewatched, struggle with social
media use and that addictioncycle that you were talking
about, the dopamine that, likethis, isn't all for good.
It was maybe intended at firstand we had beliefs that it
connects us more, but now wealso see the flip side.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's really interesting, yeah,
because the conversations thatwere happening in 2017 were more
around like how do we utilizethis amazing tool that we have
at our disposal?
And we were actually talkingabout how to integrate cell
phones better into our schoolday and to how are we going to
integrate cell phones into ourassignments and teach kids how
(05:39):
to use these amazing tools thatwe have.
And the narrative has changedso much since then, largely
because of this the availabilityof longitudinal data, which we
didn't have available to us then, and this data shows.
It's pretty hard to see thisand not see the relationship
between the data that we'reseeing now and cell phone use.
(06:03):
Specifically, jonathan Haidt,who is the author of the Anxious
Generation, shows the dramaticincrease in anxiety and rates of
depression and suicide attemptsamong young people since 2010,
which is around the same time asthe iPhone's front-facing and
(06:25):
when Instagram was gainingpopularity.
So I know we had social mediabefore and we had cell phones
before, but really this timewhen it came together, in that
we have social media availableto us any given time and the
expectation is that we have topresent ourselves in a certain
way at any given time for anaudience of people.
(06:46):
It just is incredibly teenagersare already so vulnerable to
that perception.
You know, we know that they'vebeen targeted by this and it's
really impacting their mentalhealth really significantly.
Some of those charts I had thesame reaction to them that many
people do, which is like it'spretty indisputable that at
(07:08):
least there is a correlationbetween those changes in
technology and increased ratesof mental health challenges, and
not just here in the UnitedStates but across the world.
So, percentage of US teens withmajor depression there's been a
145% increase among girls since2010 and 161% increase among
(07:33):
boys since 2010 in self-reporteddepression rates, and I will
say that's a nationwide study.
Our data here locally is verysimilar.
It reflects those same sorts ofchanges here in our community
as are being seen around thenation.
Similarly, us teens admitted tohospitals for non-fatal
(07:58):
self-harm Since 2010, there'sbeen a 188% increase among girls
and 48% increase among boys.
And I'd love to say, oh good,only a 40% increase among boys.
But if you look at the suiciderate among young people aged 15
to 19, there's been a dramaticrise in suicide rates of young
(08:22):
boys and it's always beensomething that we're aware of
that boys, despite attemptingsuicide less frequently, will
die by suicide more often thangirls do because they use more
lethal means.
So it makes sense that we'd seean increase in non-fatal
self-harm among boys and thisreally dramatic and extremely
(08:46):
concerning rise in the suiciderate among boys.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
It's so disheartening , you know, having a
nine-year-old girl, an11-year-old boy and knowing
those numbers are true for theage that they're heading into,
you know every parent kind oftakes a sigh of like, just, you
know frustration.
And let's dive a little bitinto like what's the connection?
(09:13):
Because, like you said, it'scorrelational.
It's hard to prove causation,but I know there's definitely
some concrete thoughts about whythis is correlated, one being
the dopamine addiction like youtalked about.
It is just those.
There's been many reports thatshow how much, how good
technology companies have becomeat being able to prey on this
(09:37):
dopamine addiction cycle, andthat you know the fact that as
soon as you're about to possiblyturn off an app, it maybe gives
you a new alert, those littlepings they set you up to want to
get notifications so thatyou're enjoying this little hit
of like Ooh, someone wants tocontact me, someone has a
response to me, that and adesire to want to keep checking
(10:00):
in as things are offered liveand we don't want to miss out.
I mean, it's just, it's allintentional.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, and they've gotten so good at this.
They've they've fundedincredible research that has
given them information on howbest to keep people on the apps.
They operated on anintermittent reinforcement
schedule, which is the mostpowerful reinforcement schedule
there is.
It's like gambling.
Who knows when I could pick upmy phone and there'll be a like
(10:27):
on my last post or there'll be amessage from my friend.
And even though those thingsare, you know dopamine.
You know the addictivetendencies.
Those exist in adults too, butwe know, given brain development
, young people are far moresusceptible to the type of
dysregulating activities thatoperate on our dopamine system
(10:49):
that are present in these apps.
Autoscroll is a fairly newdevelopment.
That's the function onInstagram and TikTok that
requires very little action fromyou to keep scrolling through
content, the fact that there'smildly interesting content, and
then they'll throw somethinginto the algorithm that really
(11:13):
hits that dopamine.
So maybe the next one is goingto be the most interesting one.
Maybe the next one is going tobe the most interesting one.
Also, dangerously, a lot of thethings that keep people on
especially young people on theseapps is that the algorithm will
default to things that are forboys, tend to be more violent
content.
There's a lot of clips of caraccidents and people falling
(11:36):
over and you know bicycleaccidents and those escalate to
some pretty violent, disturbingcontent For some students.
Really quickly they can getaccess to those.
For girls it tends to be moreself-esteem based.
There's been a real uptick inthe markets for anti-aging
creams.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, and starting Botox in your twenties.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, I've been too.
I'm too old for preventativeBotox.
Preventative Botox, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Oh, and the makeup tutorials and all these things.
It's like this.
It just like furtherintensifies the focus on how you
look and how you appear toothers.
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yep, and, and that kind of content is really
addictive, in addition todamaging self-esteem and
distorting a student's worldview.
And so, while we don't have asmuch information pointing to the
causality of phones impactingmental health, there have been
some studies more recently thatdefinitely suggest that's what's
(12:42):
going on.
So in 2019, there was a journalor an article in Pediatrics
that demonstrated that teensusing social media more
frequently over a two-yearperiod of time were more likely
to develop depressive symptoms.
And then there's another studythat was in Nature
Communications in 2022 thatidentified specific age windows,
(13:04):
specifically from age 12 to 14for girls, when social media is
particularly harmful.
They've also had some studiesthat show that limiting or
removing access to social mediaimproves mental health.
They've also had some studiesthat show that limiting or
removing access to social mediaimproves mental health.
So this was an article that waspublished in the Journal of
Social and Clinical Psychologyin 2018.
And reducing social media useto 30 minutes a day led to lower
(13:24):
anxiety, depression andloneliness.
And then they've also anotherstudy that I'd just like to
point to is that the more timestudents report spending on
social media correlates withgreater mental health symptoms.
So this was in psychiatry in2019.
, and it showed essentially thatteens using their phones for
five or more hours a day weretwice as likely to report
(13:45):
depressive symptoms compared tothose using phones less than one
hour a day.
So these are all suggestive ofa causal relationship between
smartphone use and mental healthissues.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So get this, joanna.
Just by Googling it, I couldsee that the actual the average
number of hours that a teen istypically on their phone is
seven hours and 22 minutes perday.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It's more than a full .
It's like a full-time job.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
It's a full-time job and they're doing it like it's a
full-time job, their commitmentto it, their dedication, and so
, yeah, if you have a full-timejob of school and a full-time
job on your phone, there's notspace for a lot of other things,
right?
This is starting to affectfriendships, dating, real life,
social skills, the desire to,you know, be in relationship in
(14:40):
real life, and what are?
What are we seeing in terms ofhow that's affecting our teens?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, I mean, it's really shocking to me, walking
through the halls of our highschools here in town, the way
that young people arecommunicating with one another.
It looks a lot different nowthan what I remember, and you
know what I remember wasn'talways.
You know the peak of socialskills.
(15:06):
Yeah, but a lot of what they donow is show each other what's
on their phones.
Yeah, of what they do now isshow each other what's on their
phones.
How they're communicating is.
Look at this funny video I saw,or look at these photos I took,
and you know, some of thatmight be healthy, but it is
seeming like it replaces a lotof the more natural
(15:26):
conversations that people havethat aren't mediated by cell
phones.
So even when they're I meanthey're communicating all the
time via, you know, social media, but then when they're together
they're not even able to bethere with each other.
They still have to have thoseconversations mediated by some
sort of technology.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So what can be done?
What do you recommend for thoseof us that are parents of the
kids eight to 10?
And what do you recommend ofthe parents of junior, high or
high schoolers?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, I wish I knew the answer.
I know that.
You know parenting takes abalance, and you know being the
title of your podcast isprobably hinting at this
sustainable parenting.
There was a parenting crisisdeclared in 2024 by the Surgeon
General about how hard it is andhow bad it is for your health,
(16:19):
so I hate to be another personbeing like oh, you're doing it
wrong or you should do it thisway.
I don't have any majorrecommendations like that.
I will say, though, that ingeneral, we way overestimate the
dangers in regular life,in-person interactions.
(16:39):
For years and years, we've hadconcerns about stranger danger,
and the idea of a kid out atnight is a scary concept or
doing independent things thereare dangerous people in our
neighborhoods, those sort ofnarratives and then so we we way
overestimate that the danger isthere, and we way underestimate
(17:00):
the dangers online.
A lot of the things that evenyou know mental health issues
and the addictive tendenciesaside the predators have found
out where the kids are, andthey're not out on the streets,
they're not playing in the parks, they're on the phones, and
having easy access to them is.
(17:22):
It's really scary, and we'restill learning how, what kind of
protections are needed andpushing companies to put in
those protections.
But I would encourage parentsto try to flip that narrative.
There are more dangers onlinethan I think a lot of people
know and there are a lot ofbenefits of being independent
(17:45):
and having opportunities to playand socialize in the real world
that a lot of people are, youknow.
Because of our fears andanxieties about the dangers,
we've been maybe perhaps toorestrictive and the pendulum has
swung too far in the otherdirection.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, and of course those go together.
Right, If you're like, well,you can't go outside, but I need
to work from home or I need tocook dinner, then it's easy to
think of just putting a child onan iPad or give them a phone
earlier and so, or give them thephone to think that's the only
way they can have moreindependence also.
But we live in a space wherethere there are a lot of other
(18:25):
alternatives.
If we can seek watches orthings like that, that's one
thing we've opted for in ourfamily is just a Fitbit watch
that can call or text just theadults we have put on the phone,
not even other friends that itis.
There are some alternatives tostill having them, so we're not
(18:47):
so worried when they're awayfrom us and I guess, yeah, just
back to and then seeking waysthat they can.
They don't have to be insidethe house on an iPad, Can they
be outside and having a littlemore old school childhood play.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, one of the recommendations from the anxious
generation is not only morerestrictions on cell phone use,
but greater opportunities forrisky play, which is something
we're struggling with as a, as aschool district.
What does it look like to haveunsupervised play at school?
(19:24):
It's something that, you know,has been the opposite of what
we've been trying to accomplishfor many years, but the
opportunity for kids to solvetheir own problems, for them to
have conflict and get through it, for them to, you know, find
out how much they can actuallydo on their own, is a really
(19:47):
positive thing for childhooddevelopment.
So we're just trying to findsome balance.
I think one of the majorbarriers that parents are up
against is the social norm ofproviding kids with cell phones
at an early age.
Phones at an early age.
(20:09):
If your child is the only onewithout a cell phone, it is very
hard to have to have thatongoing battle every day of but
mom.
I'm all my friends have it.
I'm getting left out of myfriends' social connections
because I'm the only one whodoesn't have a cell phone.
So I think that the realsolutions are, unfortunately,
you know, those broader socialand cultural changes and
(20:31):
expectations that are both hardto accomplish but can allow an
individual parent to make adifferent choice for their child
, because right now it almostdoesn't feel like a choice.
I think for a lot of parentsyou know, as long as they have
that argument of I'm the onlyone it feels like you know
you're, by choosing somethingdifferent, you're isolating your
(20:54):
kid.
So there's a there's a campaigncalled Wait Until Eighth that I
would recommend that parentslook into.
It's you sign a pledge thatsays that your child will not
have access to social media or asmartphone until eighth grade,
(21:17):
and it allows you to enter yourschool that you attend and
connect you to other parentsthat have signed the pledge.
It also allows you to send outa message to other parents in
your student's classroom sayinghey, I've signed this pledge,
would you like to?
(21:37):
So it's really an effort to tryto reestablish control over the
social expectations of when acell phone is appropriate,
because that wasn't a decisionthat we ever made very
thoughtfully.
It's a decision that seems likewe all fell into, and so it's
giving us an opportunity to kindof get back ahead of it and say
(21:58):
this is when is a time that wecan feel more comfortable giving
our child access to this.
And there is some research.
I mean, eighth grade is not youknow.
All of a sudden they shouldhave the whole thing.
You know, I think I hear backfrom a lot of parents who say
you know well, how are theygoing to regulate on a
smartphone if they've neverlearned how?
(22:21):
If I just give them asmartphone in eighth grade,
aren't they going to have issuesmanaging that responsibility?
And the answer is absolutelyyes.
So again, even though you knowwe're waiting until eighth grade
, you still need to kind ofscaffold usage so that the child
learns how to use itresponsibly and manage their own
(22:42):
time on it responsibly andmanage their own time on it.
And because they're in eighthgrade and their brains are not
fully developed, there stillneeds to be some parent
oversight and restrictions onthe way that they're using those
devices.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, I went to a local parent night where some
local police officers werespeaking on this topic and one
of the things that the mainpolice officer kept saying again
and again and again was like,be a nosy parent Like you can't.
It is not.
Like you said, if we're lookingat dangers, like there are so
many possible dangers here, youwould not just send your kid you
(23:19):
know out with a gun and be likeI guess you're gonna figure it
out as you go.
You would say you know, bereally supervising and teaching
and guiding, and I think thesame is true certainly here of
just it's okay to be nosy.
This is not a privacy thingthat they're just entitled to
have.
You never look at havingagreements about how you're able
(23:39):
to look at what might be ontheir phone and what they're
texting.
And obviously with the caveatthat there's so many ways kids
know how to get around theirparents being able to see, you
know, being on apps that arehidden under calculator, the
calculator on the phone, and youknow.
So parents, beware, you maythink that you know what's going
on in the phone, but you also,your kids, they're, they're so
(24:03):
clever they can just Google andthey find out from their friends
all these workarounds, ways toget around, even time blockers
that you put on there.
So it's a challenging kind ofwhack-a-mole.
I've heard a lot of parents sayas soon as you figure out one
way to stop how they got aroundyour boundary, there may be a
new way they've found.
So again, I think that justbacks it up to like so why put
(24:25):
this challenge in our handsbefore we absolutely have to?
You know, I think if there'sany other possible solution to
the thing you want for your kid,let's try to pursue those
routes, because it's just sochallenging to monitor, to keep
having boundaries with um withwhen it is in their hands.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, and they keep pushing it, in large part
because of you know theaddictive nature of these apps.
And because they are notdevelopmentally ready for this
particular challenge.
So when I talk to parent groups, a lot of what I hear back is,
first of all, a lot of supportfor the ideas in the anxious
(25:11):
generation and for solving thisproblem, but then also the
question like well, why don't wethen, knowing that these are,
you know it's hard toself-regulate around these
devices why don't we spend moretime investing in teaching kids
how to self-regulate?
And I'm all for that.
I think that could happen intandem with more restrictions
(25:35):
and more supervision.
But it does seem to me likesaying you know, okay, that
plate of cocaine in front ofyour child like they should
learn more self-regulationaround the cocaine and you're
like well, they're not.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
their brains are not capable of of you know right
Once you've sniffed it, likeyour, your chemistry is driving
you.
It's not always a consciouschoice to still keep going back
to the thing.
Completely, joanna, I can't.
I couldn't agree more.
I think it's it's expecting toomuch of them too soon.
And so I can tell you in mytherapy work with with families
(26:13):
that I'll hear that too, likedon't, we need to start soon
Because this is going to be apart of their lives.
They need to know how to manageit and it's like, yes, but
they're going to need to learnhow to manage a lot of really
adult things in their lives,like sex and drugs and alcohol.
And that doesn't mean you startit early so that they can get
there.
You wait until their brains aremore developmentally able to
(26:35):
have the brain function to evenpotentially take in self-control
.
You know the whole back toprefrontal lobe isn't fully
developed till your late 20s orearly 30s.
So if we're looking for them tohave better self control with a
highly addictive substancereally what it is in our phones
that's not really fair to them.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Because of that brain development and lack of a fully
developed prefrontal cortex,they're predisposed to risk.
And what does risk look like inthe real world versus what does
risk look like on a phone, on asocial media website?
What risk looks like on socialmedia is talking to dangerous
(27:21):
people, it's sending nakedpictures, it's asking for
illicit substances.
Risk online is because youdon't know who else is, who
you're talking to and what theirmotivations are.
It carries a lot more risk thanI think a lot of people believe
(27:42):
and kids are not.
They're not faced with that allthe time in the real world
without adult support and I feellike a lot of the things that
happen online because of theprivacy around it, people like
the kids, when something happens, they seem very hesitant to
reach out to adults for supportwith stuff that's happening
online.
Online that's, I mean,certainly something that we can
(28:05):
work on in tandem, but again,because they're not necessarily
developmentally ready for theresponsibilities of these phones
and the types of conversationsthey're having about sex and
drugs, and those things are nothappening with kids their same
age, which would be if they were, you know, having them with
their peers that were less ableto support than we would be in a
(28:30):
typical situation.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, so besides the directive of getting involved in
a wait till eighth campaign,which I know people can do
anywhere nationally, any otherpoints of action you want to
direct listeners to?
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So my advice to those folks that have older kids is
you know, yes, we can.
You know, treat this with some.
You know we're going to try torationalize with them.
Here's why we're doing whatwe're doing what we're doing,
(29:09):
and I would even use some of theinformation and data from the
anxious generation to guidethose conversations I shared
with you.
We had some high schoolstudents with us on the
well-being committee.
We had four students from twofrom each high school that both
genders represented somedifferent age groups.
It was unanimous among thatgroup that they wanted relief
from the phones.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
They feel the addiction and the negative sides
of it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah, I think that they can tell that it's
anxiety producing.
They can tell that it's notgood for their social
interactions.
But because this has been inthe same way that we've
interpreted it, this is a socialnorm.
We don't really have a choice.
They feel the same way.
My social life is on my phone,so they're asking us for help.
(29:54):
I'm going to quote one of thestudents, and I'm going to quote
her poorly, but at the boardmeeting she shared with the
board members there's adifference between peacekeepers
and peacemakers, and we need youto be peacemakers, so because
we can't do it on our own, andso we need you to make the rules
(30:16):
to help us.
And so I think that, whilethat's a hard ask, and sometimes
you need to go slow to gofaster, however that quote goes,
they want our help and that'sour responsibility right now.
As for younger kids just goingback to what you were saying
(30:37):
about, like you know, we've cometo depend on them for
convenience.
We have examples of cellphone-free schools.
Most of our elementary schoolsare cell phone-free.
Very few kids have those and westill get the kids the cleats
when they need them.
You're still able to accessyour kid if you need to, we can
replicate those same models inhigh school and in middle school
(30:57):
and you know whatever.
To work with your schools,because I again think that the
building trust part is soessential in this to be partners
with parents and help thisbecome the new norm.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yes, well, thank you so much.
I am just so grateful for yourefforts for our kids to have the
peacemakers, like you're saying, be able to say we are going to
do that parental role to giveyou that safer environment so
you can thrive.
And certainly that falls inline with everything I'm about
(31:37):
here.
You know, sustainable parentingis about kindness and firmness
at the same time, and kids arewanting those safe, protective,
loving boundaries from us, andthis is one more place that it's
important to do so.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I think anytime you're talking about phones.
If you just replace phones withthe word cigarettes or some
other sort of addictivesubstance, a lot of the way we
talk about them suddenly seemsvery strange.
They really like it.
They really like it.
They really need it.
All their friends are doing it.
Yeah right, so it's time wetake away the cigarettes.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yes, I could not agree more.
Thank you for that.
We need that dose of reality.
I really appreciate it.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, Joanne.
I really, really am so grateful.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me and for getting
this message out.
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