May 12, 2022 • 48 mins
"I spent so much time as a child not being able to express my curiosity, I owe it to myself to put that into some form of words." - Shanta Lee Gander
During this conversation, Shanta Lee, Lisa, and Lauren chat about the multi-faceted levels of storytelling. From the stories we tell ourselves about our own lives, to history and what has been left out to the story we can create and become. From mythology to reality to to time travel to identity and taking back yourself, there's so much that's unpacked and still being processed. Witness this conversation as a all three women wander with one another into many aspects of being, writing, creating, art, and so much more. From the act of writing it all down and collecting memories in order to reflect or just doing it for the sake of doing it and all the in between, this conversation has something for everyone and is worth the deep dive, even into the fear and the unknown. You'll discover something new.
Check out her website here: https://www.shantalee.com/
Learn more about the Take an Art Break Movement on the Art is Moving website here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome.
We're here,
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We're here.
And Lisa and Lauren's there.
We're really excited today.
We have SHTA Lee Gander here.
Um, just tell us a little bitabout your passion for art,
creativity, poetry, and a scenein the unseen.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Thank you.
Um, it's pretty fitting, cuzlike I just shared before we got
started live, uh, my best friendand I were creeping around at
night, just looking at some ofthe bones and structures of
history here in Pennsylvania.
I love abandoned places.
Uh, I write across genres.
Um, I love exploring, especiallythe unseen within the south, but
(00:42):
also the unseen within thelandscape.
Um, actually very fitting theday before we were, uh, crawling
around, I was on my belly takingpictures of some tiny people's
village.
That was a part of an amusementpark crumbling structures.
So I find that on the page oreven if it's behind my camera,
like there are always thingsrevealed, you know, in
(01:05):
landscape.
Um, especially if we're talkingtopography of self and I just
all around love to create.
Um, recently I got into somelittle bit of film making, um,
for my exhibition, dark goddess,an exploration of the sacred
feminine that's up right now atthe filming museum of arts.
So yeah.
Um, here's actually my firstbook, ghetto claustrophobia
(01:29):
dream of mama while trying tospeak woman in Wil tongues and
my second book, um, blackmetamorphs, which is a
conversation with avid D iscoming out next year through a
TRUS skin press ghetto Clausphobias through odes.
So yeah, that's I, I love tocreate and I find, I love that
this is a dialogue like back andforth cuz that's a part of my
(01:52):
creation process too.
Oh,
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That's good.
Yeah.
I mean it's um, it's interestingbecause you know, you're you're
I was going across and lookingat all your work, I've read some
of your poetry and some of yourwritings and you would call it
multifaceted and it, but, but itmakes total sense given what
you're interested in doing, um,of course it would be
multifaceted because that'sexactly what you're talking
(02:15):
about.
You're talking about themultifaceted self identity,
multifaceted cultural identityrelationship with uh, history
and the future and the presenttime and things like that.
And I feel like, uh, when, whenLisa and I started to like dig
into your work and stuff, we, wethought a lot about storytelling
and the power of art to tellone's own story, but also to
(02:37):
tell the story of us.
Um, and so the question we sortof thought we would dive into is
how art can help someone, uh,share their story.
So how do you think art can dothat?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's funny because the whole idea or concept of
storytelling in and of itself,like if we take it off the
mantle, not to say sometimes Ithink we put a lot of things on
mantle art, you know, and artcarries this whole heavy weight
and then it implies that someonehas to be an artist and capital
(03:13):
artist and all that.
But I wanna step back and untillayer of story itself, story
itself.
Cause as I thought about thatquestion in preparation for
this, I thought is so bold andso human and we live for stories
and everybody does it.
Even for people who say I'm notcreative or I'm not an artist or
(03:40):
I don't, whatever things we liketo claim, we're not, but get
somebody on a good topic right.
Of a story.
And we learn it from ourfamilies.
And I, I think there's a wayit's funny because I think
stories also serve, um, theyserve different purposes.
I, I feel like storytellers andthat those we, um, share stories
(04:00):
with around the fire, they canbear as our witnesses, you know?
And it's also improv.
I was thinking about this, youknow, my best friend and I, we
were, we were actually plotting,oh, what stories are we gonna
tell around the table?
when it's dinner time,but it's time, you know, oh,
we're gonna, we gotta tell thisstory.
We gotta tell this story.
We gotta tell that story.
(04:21):
Cuz we do this co told narrativea lot.
And people do that.
People do that all the timewhere people will retell
something and they'll say, no,no, no, it happened like this.
Or I remember that, well weforgot this part.
And it, sometimes it can be apart of healing, but sometimes
the reason why I step back fromthat is I say, well, the other
(04:44):
question that becomes, doesheart heart have to take on that
responsibility of having to fixsomething?
Or is this because we're sharingbecause once you put a story out
into the universe and it becomescommunity pots and then we're,
we're getting something from it.
It's like, I always comparethings a lot to sculptures and
(05:06):
how different people, dependingon what they're seeing and
walking around, they will allsee different things.
Oh yeah.
And that's how it is with ourlives even and memory.
And so it all, I think it it'skey.
It's inherent to what we do ashuman beings.
It's not necessarily attached togiving it a time actually giving
(05:28):
it its title to say it's, eventhough it is, it is art, but to
make it accessible is just whatwe do.
If we think about it, it's justwhat we do because we also tell
stories to ourselves almost likeLua buys.
Right.
Um, we repeat things toourselves.
That's why we have to be carefulabout what we're telling
(05:48):
ourselves.
Great.
Right.
So it's like so key, it's alsokey in not recounting our lives,
but in making our lives.
And if we so wish on stitchingand stitching something back
together, we can change apattern with a story.
(06:12):
I feel like, I feel like IRamed, but I, my God,
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, that made what I really, what I really like.
Uh, I love that you used theword bio mythic.
Talk about that because I love,I love the idea of living her.
Life's like mythology, like abig story.
You were talking about creating
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Story,
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Like the heroes journey or the heroines journey,
right?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It was yeah.
Cause it it's okay.
So I was thinking about this ZNOHutten popped into my head the
other day.
And I was thinking about Jamie,their eyes were watching God.
I was like, wait a minute.
That was the heroines.
She was the heroines journeybefore we recognized.
Or we recognize that there wasthe hue missing or whoever the
(06:57):
individual's journey.
Right.
And mythology is huge as I, Imean, I just mentioned, um, so
my second book, black metamorphdisease is coming out through a
trust compressed next year atsome point.
And it just felt natural.
Now, even though I pick onmyself even and say, okay, the
(07:20):
Greek mythology, everybody andthe grand mama and their dog and
their cats done it, but how canI do it?
Right.
We know that's true.
But then how can we do it in away?
I mean, it still plays out inour headlines last year, it was
naked Athena.
I'm like Athena, you know, whichis hence my, you know, dark
(07:43):
goddess has been long beforethat for years just sitting in
my body.
But thinking about who else isin this Pantheon, what other
female energy feminine embodiesare in this Pantheon also beyond
just deifying or reifying?
What we say is the, the good orthe great, how do we look at
(08:06):
this also?
How do we, can we look at ourflaws through the lessons we get
from them?
And I think that's the bold mythand even fairy tales play.
It's like, how do we, how can wemine that?
And look at that and not turnaway from it.
Mm-hmm I'm notgonna close the there's a what
shadow work.
I, I don't it's like that.
That's so that's too like,whatever it is, but I've always
(08:28):
drilled into the, the balance ofthe dark, like all, all of that,
but the dark is the good and thejuicy and how can we take that?
And how can also that be a partof our story.
And I think we all have accessto mythmaking and it, we don't
have to beat anything.
(08:49):
We're not in order to access it.
Mm-hmm we are, wealready are the myth,
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right?
You, well, just like, just likeyou were saying, right.
Everybody has their own story.
Everybody has their ownperspective because they have
their own experience.
So of course everybody wouldhave their own myth.
My question is, is that, I feellike since we're talking about
storytelling, actually feel likea lot of stories that we are
told and then inevitably maybetell ourselves yes.
Are actually are packed withlessons that, that are maybe not
(09:23):
the thing we should actually belearning mm-hmm
Speaker 3 (09:26):
right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Mm-hmm
like, I would, I, I kind of
think about it as a learnedbehavior and I've been using the
word a lot in my own mind.
Like what kind of messaging didI receive as a child through
those stories, through thosemyths.
Right.
Um, right.
I mean, just any, any fairytalethat I, uh, let's just, let's
just talk about, you know, uh,Disney, uh, fairy tales when you
(09:48):
were younger and things likelittle
Speaker 3 (09:50):
There's there's a little mermaid, little mermaid
is very, literally, that's avery telling one actually, cuz
she gave up her tongue.
She, you remember that?
Yeah.
Where like she literally tradedfor some legs, Ursula shed.
(10:10):
I mean that's a whole yeah,right?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What kind of thing does thattell a young female?
When, because little mermaid, uh, if you can't tell she was my
FA because I could, I actuallyidentify with her, she's a red
head.
I was like, oh yeah, that's me.
And then I'm
Speaker 3 (10:29):
What,
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Um,
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Me,
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm not the
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Person I pump the brakes, like, wait a minute,
wait, pump the brakes.
I don't hold my tongue that way.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Right.
I don't hold my tongue.
And so right.
But, but that, but it's alsolike how is that not being, um,
ingested by me because I watchedit, I memorized it.
So of course it was beingingested by me.
Of course, course I, it wasimpacting me, even though I had
a separate person inside my ownbrain being like, no thanks.
(10:58):
So, right.
So I think we need to talk aboutthe, it's not only about using
art to tell your story, but it'sabout like what kind of story is
being like almost put on top ofyou through, you know, I mean, I
don't know how to,
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Well, no, that actually, it makes a lot of
sense because so my firstgraduate degree, when I was
wrapping up my MBA, I did somework around the grand narrative.
I looked at feminism cuz likenarrative in the business world
started to be something that waslike less woo, woo.
More viable.
(11:34):
How do you tell the story ofyour organization?
How do you do it with funders?
How do you do it with investment?
And I started looking at well,what if the whole idea of
narrative, how would I look at awhole movement?
If it were an organization Idrew up this whole model got
lazy, never published it.
Mm-hmm I wrote it.
And it like for research and thewhole idea of the grand
(11:56):
narrative, which is big becausethere's, there are you're right.
You're bringing up these layers,right?
There's the layers of, well, youknow, I am the myth or I am the
one who's who can choose how Iperceive.
Then they're the layers of thenyour family or your friends or
work or whatever is going totell you how to perceive said
things.
So for example, this is a brief,quick example, Maggie Gillen
(12:19):
hall and the lost daughter.
What is that?
How is, how is that character inthat telling us about how we
should feel about the mother whoseems selfish, who seems
self-serving right.
So it's just like, there's alayer like a woman or, or a
female identifying person couldsay, okay, yeah, I'm a woman.
(12:40):
And then I'm a mother and thensociety, then the grand
narrative about what a mother issupposed to be.
Mm-hmm she'ssupposed to be self-sacrificing
she's supposed to look in themirror and say, get, go F off
girl, nobody got time for youbecause you're gonna get to
these kids.
And then if you're married, thenoh yep.
Stand back in the line, girl,you gotta get to X, Y, and Z
(13:02):
this.
And I think that's why I zonedin a little mermaid.
And so this narrative that isset up and also depending on how
your family roles, right.
This narrative of how you'resupposed to be, what's expected
and then how we then mediatebetween those things and those
gaps in addition to mediatingwith or against, or for
(13:26):
ourselves.
When we come in contact withthings that kind of challenge
what we've been tellingourselves about ourselves,
layered on what other peopletold us about ourselves or what
they said we should.
And then also then it makes itall the more greater
responsibility I think.
And then for myself, as someonewho is creating clean stuff in
the world, I personally wantpeople to be able to look at my
(13:49):
things or experience them andengage or go hopefully on their
own inquiry or own request insome way, shape or form or think
in some, some way and ask somequestion about what's beneath
the surf.
Um, mm-hmm cause itisn't about me and it stops
being mine or about me, themoment it's in a book or the
(14:12):
moment it's hanging on the wallor the moment I put something
out, then people are runningwith it and having their own
conversations hopefully, ordoing their own things with it.
And so therefore there and also,so, and then if we look at it
another, if we get out of mesounding semi woo, woo.
There is the area of what youstarted with what we're told.
(14:37):
So history, why example ofhistory, like looking at who and
what is missing in between thosegaps, what we repeat, what we
repeat about all sorts ofthings.
And it's easy to then say, oh,I'm just gonna repeat this.
And then when you look back atit, you're like, actually that
(14:59):
was that there's some missinginformation, right?
Like I'm sure that's both of youat certain points, right?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah.
I love it.
Well, you're really talkingabout is programming and
conditioning.
And what I love about this iswhat I'm, I'm taking from your
dark goddess series is the darkgoddess is like Lilith or
segment or HACA.
And they're like, usually they,the patriarchy is so afraid of
them.
Right.
and for me, yeah.
Right.
(15:26):
So it's like, for me, what Ithink is the dark goddess, like
shakes'em up and then, you know,they, they get scared.
And so I, I love the reclamationof the dark goddess within the
feminine, in the sacredfeminine, because we are
conditioned to think, you know,um, Camelot, you know, where the
Knight saves the, you know, ohyes,
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Saves
Speaker 2 (15:48):
The princess and you know, we're, we're, we're weak
and you know, and so we're thedark goddess is actually like,
no, you know, I have the powerhere and she's empowered and it
is
Speaker 3 (15:58):
The dark word.
She may, at times where her ownchildren, at times she may be
leaning back on her haunches,howling into the night.
, you know, she breaksyour vision and you will not
take her tongue.
She'll take yours before.
Exactly take.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah.
Right.
And it's also at the same timeas talking about going, I love
this.
I love this idea of goingbackwards in our historical
storytelling and filling inthose gaps and not being afraid
of what it might conjure upinside ourselves.
And, and, and that, you know, alot of your work is about fear,
(16:35):
but it's about fear of yourself.
And then it's a, it's a fear ofself and it's just like, I love,
I like the, all it, it is.
It's just across the board.
And so like, what if we did goback, what do you think would
happen if we actually startedtelling the whole story?
(16:55):
Cuz you are definitelyinterested in the whole, you're
a very holistic, right?
Yeah.
You're not like just the good,just the bad, just this you're
like, no, let's just the entiresuitcase and look at every piece
and then come up with an outfit.
Right.
So I
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Mean, I do that myself too.
I do that with myself.
It's not gonna like sell pitchmyself as, oh, I'm like this.
Nope.
They're all sorts of pieces allthere and I'm looking at them
and they're looking at me.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Right, right.
So how do you do that?
Do you do that through yourwriting?
Is that how you mm-hmm do that for
yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I do well for myself and also, I don't know.
I mean, it's different, right?
If I'm interviewing someone, mygoal is, you know, as a
journalist seek the truth,right?
Mm-hmm balanceneutral also though the extra
layer for me is always creatingthe space so that this person,
(17:59):
and I can have this space wherewe're creating something
together and then like it goesout, uh, poetry.
I don't always, I'm not incontrol of what, like even
actually sometimes my pros, likewhat's gonna come out or I think
about something, I keepsketchbook for 1,000,001 things.
And it's just like, what's gonnacome out.
(18:20):
And it is integrating thesepieces.
I think I'm not saying this isthe only reason why we're all
having a hard time right now.
I mean, there are layers, thereare so many layers, but in the
technical normal, before 2020,right.
(18:41):
Technical, technically normal,the normal that was working for
nobody.
right.
We, we know this true.
It's, there's a way that there'sa fear in not if you reveal
certain parts of yourself.
So we're always trading andnegotiating these masks.
(19:04):
If we don't do that verycarefully, we get punished.
And we've seen this some amongus who get punished for not
negotiating those masks verycarefully.
Mm-hmm for myself.
I've only lived in friggingboxes.
I'm over it.
I'm done with it.
Mm-hmm right.
I just, I can't do boxes.
I can't do.
Um, cuz I already put myself inenough of'em.
(19:25):
I don't I'm I'm trying to likeconstantly trying to free myself
from those.
Therefore I'm hoping, and thisis just based off what other
people have told me about mywork.
They said it was a sense ofpermission.
Hmm.
I'm hoping if people takenothing else, right.
Even if there's a poem, someonedoesn't understand or you know,
I'm telling these stories and mymemoir that I'm working on, I am
(19:46):
scared.
I am like coming up with stuffthat is when my family see, you
know, it's like, they're verysupportive and I'm also afraid
in terms of when I'm around,even certain poems have been
producing lately.
I'm afraid I'm looking at them.
I'm like who and what is thiswhat's going on here?
and I'm hoping, youknow, I like to say if I I'm a
(20:11):
patron Saint in my own head ofdifferent things and I don't
mean like, oh, patron, statepiece or patron Saint of the
unsaid, patron, Saint of themisbehaving.
Like I'd like to encouragepeople to do those things.
Cause I feel like a part of thereason why we have been having a
hard time as a species is tojust be, what would it look
(20:31):
like?
I, I posted one time as a wholerule questions.
Mm-hmm what wouldbe, what be like without
institutional GS, what would webe like without male GS?
What would we be like?
And it was riffing off of aquestion that is posed.
Like what would you do for 24hours without Mel gaze?
Like for about women.
And I think what it was attachedto something, but I said, no,
(20:54):
let's go down whole nine withoutfinancial gaze, without all
these waves and all these layersof seeing who would we be?
And like, what's the feralstate?
Like I'm not saying flawless.
It's just like some people blameHanta said no, no, no, I didn't
say that.
But it's like, how could we beright.
Our most seller love that.
(21:16):
And I do try to do that formyself and in doing it for
myself, I hope I can do it orhelp with somebody else's
pathway to that.
Yeah.
If that makes
Speaker 2 (21:24):
For me, sorry.
Oh yeah.
What I love the feral cuz whatwe are domesticated extremely
domesticated.
Right.
And you're, you're asking us tolook in the mirror and go, where
is that wild self?
Where is that fair itself?
I think that's really important.
And for me, what comes up rightnow with women's rights on the
chopping block?
I mean, that's huge.
(21:45):
It's big, it's a big time wherepeople, women and men have to
look in the mirror and reallyquestion themselves.
How can um, how can women whoare in the fear mode?
You know what I mean?
Express it now and then taketheir power back because we're
Speaker 3 (22:02):
We're, that's a good question.
That's a good question becauseI've been okay.
So I used to work inreproductive health several
years ago.
I used to work in public healthseveral years ago.
Very interesting thing isknowing what I know the rights
have always been on a choppingblock.
That's number one, they alwayshave been now for some people
who are just coming to andrealizing what's happening.
(22:25):
It's been now, it's gotten nowto a next level.
Like if we have level threelevel four, level five being the
highest it's gotten that theother thing is, so there are a
couple of things operating forme with that question.
I think of my answer from myfamilial perspective of how I
was raised.
I was raised by, I come from aline of women who never were
(22:47):
gonna hand themselves over toanybody, not even to their male
partners that was not happening.
And I was taught to be thatperson I was taught.
You are not handing yourselfer.
And so therefore take yourselfback now.
I, you know, early Tony'sthinking, ah, that doesn't seem
quite right.
(23:07):
That doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem nice.
It's like mm-hmm,that's not loving.
And then I've like turnedaround.
I was like, now actually there'slisten to that.
I'm gonna speak the language ofthe women upon whose shoulders I
stand on.
Mm-hmm.
And so I had just been sayingrecently over the past few years
to friends, you know, takeyourself back, but different
(23:27):
people, people take yourselfback.
I think we've given so much ofourselves over that.
We didn't realize how exhaustedwe were until there was a moment
that forced, again, those of uswho could afford to be at home
or not have jobs that forced usto be in public space where we,
it was a force, you have to besitting with yourself.
(23:48):
You have to realize how much ofyourself was at stake.
Yeah.
Always handing yourself over.
And so what would be my thoughtsabout that?
I say become a thief.
Am my that.
I mean go theft time, go thefttime for yourself.
(24:09):
Even if it's four or fiveminutes, maybe some might look
at me and say, it's easy for youto say you don't have kids.
Sure.
But I wear many roles in mypersonal life.
Theft time, if you cannot have ashe shed, if you cannot, you
know, you're not in that place,do it in your car.
If you can't do it in your car,go do it in a friend's house or
(24:32):
whatever theft time.
Whether it's five minutes.
What
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Argue for five.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think what you said about like, well you don't have kids.
I get, I have three kids and Iget really mad when people tell
people who don't have kids.
Well, you don't have kidsbecause I actually think
especially women who don't havekids will fill their lives to
the top.
Sort of like prove somethingbecause if they can't be a
(25:00):
mother, what can they be?
Um, because you it's
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Almost like they're trying to prove something.
That's a really
Speaker 1 (25:06):
They're and that, and I just, I usually what bothers
me the most about it, it's womensaying it to women and I'm just
like people we got, we got a lotof work to do.
And if we're, if we're up over
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Here, like each other, we do, we're beating each
other in a ship we do with that.
Yeah.
And it's funny because I didparent, I was a ified child.
I was in charge of my brotherwho has special needs and a two
family, a two parent home.
I was made to be in charge ofhim.
And so I kind of did mother andthen what I did, I architected
(25:47):
to take myself back from thathousehold.
Right.
But I was headed to collegelike, and I was like, I gotta
take myself back.
And so I feel like my whole lifehas been an act of taking myself
back.
But speaking to one of the, thepoints that, you know, both have
made, if we're in red alertmode, mm-hmm, if
we're in red alert mode andthat's going through your
nervous system, mm-hmm well then how
(26:09):
could you properly, properlytake yourself back?
And I think it also goes back tosurrounding ourself with some
kind of nourishment so that weare surrounding ourselves to
people who do give us thatpermission.
We're not telling each other,well, you're not a mother or you
are a mother and therefore, youknow, or you, you work or you
don't work or whatever that is.
(26:31):
And don't, and isn't, and is,shaming, all the things that we
do where we're like, well, so,and so's this.
And it's just like, yeah, well,you know what?
She charges for her time.
Can we learn from that?
I mean, I'm just beingreal.
Can we learn from that?
Mm-hmm and so it'sjust like, how cut each other
(26:53):
down, be like, I need to inviteyou to the table and let's share
some, uh, you know, ingredientsand figure it out.
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah.
What, what can I right.
Like approach it with eitherholding it every time you feel
yourself going this direction,either hold up a mirror or ask
yourself, what can I, what can Ilearn from them as opposed to,
how can I judge them?
What can I learn from them?
Can I take away from thisexperience?
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah.
We've been, I love that.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah.
I love your idea of taking time.
I mean, it's, it's so funny tome that that sounds
controversial and that's like,
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's a, actually, there's a thing.
I think I came across where Ithink it was for business ethics
class, where they were talkingabout a case involving theft of
time or something.
I'm like, so I thought of thewhole trope of a time thief.
there's nothing wrongwith being a time thief.
I love that.
Do it and do the hell out of it,by the way.
(27:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Cause you know what, because if you, if there is no
youth thief thieving your time,then people will take you
including people's jobs.
People will literally take youand squeeze you out like a
washcloth.
Then when they're done, theywon't even re-wash you anymore.
And lovingly dry you and put youback.
They'll just tos you aside andget another washcloth to ring
out theft time,
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Theft time it's well, theft time is self care, right?
Just
Speaker 3 (28:19):
It, it is.
It is.
And, and I don't mean that evenit it's so sad how all of these
things would come buzzy, likeself-care and I'm thinking,
yeah, I'd like that spa andstuff.
But if you don't have spa andstuff, right.
A phone call with somebody willhelp, you know, people, your
community.
I always say that when I'm doingworkshops and things, it's like
(28:39):
build your community, yoursupport system.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Well, yeah, we have a taken outbreak movement and
that's really, it's not, it'snot like going to the spa.
It's like just sit down anddraw, you know, or make a line.
Or if you're mad at hell, just,you know, walk in nature.
So that's really one of ourmissions as artists moving to
recontextualize what it does orwhat it means to do self care.
(29:06):
It's very simple on some level
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Completely.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah.
Right.
And it doesn't have to becompletely stolen by some
hashtag and stuff like that.
It's basically right.
A thing that, um, you doactually, and I believe that you
do have to take it back.
That is the part of you that youneed.
Right?
Like you're, you have to takeback so much of yourself, but
one of those things, um, and I'msure it's another culture, but
(29:29):
I've only lived in an Americanculture.
So I'm just gonna comment onthat.
Right.
I think American culturebasically is like that this, and
maybe the reason self-care hasto be a hashtag mm-hmm
is that peoplethink you're being lazy.
Or me, this is my personalexperience.
I think I have to work and likeearn my relaxation and I'm and
(29:53):
I'm over here.
Like it's, I'm trying you'rethat's that should just be part
of living.
That should just be part ofbeing.
Yeah.
And it's not
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Really.
Isn't great.
Well, no, it's true.
You, you have a point where itreminds me of the earn your
living.
Right?
What do you do to earn yourliving or I hate, I really hate
the question of, well, you mustpay the bills and I'm just like,
I wanna say, well, how are youpaying that mortgage on being a
human?
Now I never said that.
(30:23):
I'm not gonna say that toanybody.
Cuz that's really snarky.
But, it's one of thosethings where it's just like, I,
yes.
You know, I'm not.
So there are lots of movementshappening to challenge, all
sorts of things.
So for me, I'm not like anti I'mnot anti money.
For example, I'm not, I gottaeat.
(30:45):
I got, I got things to do.
I like things.
I like to go do things.
And that requires right money.
Um, but what I will say is the,the whole, the way we judge
people's busy or leisure, youknow, it's just like, are you
doing something?
And are you, I'm now the worstattitude because I am cursed
(31:08):
with over achievement.
So it's just like, you know, youasked me what I'm doing.
And I could like, oh, I'm doingthis, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this, this, this,this right.
Um, and we, in order to create,actually you do actually
sometimes need that space fornothing.
You need the space for that'sright.
To just, you know, no one'stalking to you or no, one's
(31:31):
asking you a question or you'renot beating yourself down.
If deadlines are real.
Yes.
I'm not gonna sit a parent andsay, they're fake you can't
mythologize deadline, unless youhave some powers.
But you know, it's like, it is athing.
It's a negotiation.
It is definitely a negotiation.
And thinking about how do we, itis that, that inquiry of, I, I
(31:55):
once read a quote, it wassomething about a woman who's on
her deathbed.
Now, sometimes you don't know ifthey're making this stuff up,
they make stuff up like this.
It's like, whatever, whether sheexisted or not.
Um, you know, a woman on adeathbed who basically at the
end of faith, wasn't thinking, Iwish I clocked in earlier.
Right.
I wish I paid that on time.
(32:16):
I wish I did X, Y, and Zinstead.
She's like, well, I wish I atemore ice cream.
I wish I did this.
I wish I did that because likeright now we do things like
we'll beat ourselves up.
Oh, I ate that.
I shouldn't have ate that, oh, Iwant to go do this thing.
I shouldn't have did that.
I shouldn't.
And it's just like, actually,you know, what, if something
were to happen when yournumber's called, are you gonna
(32:40):
be sitting there?
Really?
No, you're gonna wish you werelike, oh my God, I should have
gotten to some bigger trouble.
I should have gotten to biggertrouble.
Just go big.
Yes, go do it.
And I'm not saying harmony,anybody in the process of that,
but like go.
So I try to work backwards ofthe life.
I kind of wanna, if I'm luckyenough to have a deathbed in my
(33:02):
old age, I want to be able tosay, you know what?
I wanted to do those things.
And I did mm-hmm Idid, or I met the people I
wanted to meet.
I saw the places I wanted to seego.
I do go to abandoned places.
I, I wasn't allowed, I wasstrict childhood.
So, you know, I'm living myteenagehood kind of with some
(33:23):
adulting.
I just wanna warn everybody.
I'm I'm an adult.
I play one on TV.
I impersonate one as my bestfriend say she was like really,
really good at it.
Impersonating an adult.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
I love it.
I love
Speaker 2 (33:35):
It.
Wow.
Interesting.
I, I love the idea of bendingtime, cuz the time keeps on
coming up in this, in thisconversation and that time is
actually controlling us on somelevel.
Um, so how do we bend time andstorytelling?
And as we bend time, how do wetake ourselves back?
Do you know what I mean?
(33:55):
How, how can we, how can youguide somebody a listener right
now to, to be courageous andcurious and just,
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, that's what I was, that's what I was thinking
is like, how are you not afraidto do it?
How are, how, how did, okay.
How did you figure it out?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I, I grew up in a household where camp was in a
word that you used, you don'tsay you can't do something
mm-hmm.
So as I've been writing andstuff has been coming up,
instead of saying, God, thatsounds so scary.
That sounds horrible and hard.
I'm not gonna write it.
I just write it.
(34:37):
When it comes specifically tospending time, there is this one
chapter I'll never forget.
And my it's a working, I saymemoir ask, cuz I'm doing a lot
of bending with it.
And there was a chapter whereit's um, oh, I think I took it
from marque.
Um, one of the titles of hisbooks, blah, blah, blah,
(35:00):
melancholy, horrors.
But what I did is I turned itinto mama's melancholy men folk
or something.
I was talking about my motherand I embodied, I inter looped
some of her story with mine.
And what I did is I embodied theboys.
I came in contact with, I becamethem on the page and I went back
(35:26):
in time.
I was going back in time.
I became them.
I was the one asking for mynumber Uhhuh.
I was the one doing certainthings and, and breaking certain
boundaries.
Mm I was the one that instead ofme having the crush on this boy
going, I'm the one that's theboy who's being watched.
(35:48):
And I did that and it wow.
The, the way also there is sucha thing in, in writing of time
control, it comes down to, in avery practical sense, your
tenses past present, future, howyou're navigating it.
Um, how you're doing that all ina paragraph, how you're doing
(36:10):
that all in one sentence, um,memento.
Um, was it Christopher Nolandirected by Christopher Nolan?
If you look at that movie andthere's a video, I forget the
video on YouTuber.
He describes how he did thestoryline.
I think certain parts of thestoryline are in black and white
and then the other parts movingin another way are in color to
(36:30):
look at that and to look at, um,lost order.
I know I keep referencingthanking one of my students.
They, they suggested that andit, the way it does, we, we do
it already, right?
The way we do it, if we justthink of something simple,
right?
How many people have been on thezoom call or in a meeting mm-hmm
(36:51):
they need to scrapa paper.
Why?
Because they need to write downthings like milk, sugar, flour,
they are in a meeting.
And they're thinking aboutwhat's gonna happen at the end
of that day mm-hmmand then something said, or
someone may even do something.
And then you're taking back tobeing 12 years old.
So what you just did, we're allwalking time machines.
(37:13):
And we do that.
We're already to do it inwriting mm-hmm or
you know, people may do it on acanvas, right?
You may capture something as itwas, or you may put something in
the landscape that wasn't there.
Um, we do it and it's looking atsomething in space and time.
(37:33):
And it's looking carefully aboutthe, with the language that's
being used with the vernacular,how something being said, is
there, um, something that, ametaphor that stands for the
thing of when it's about tohappen, like a movie something's
about to happen?
What's the, what's the music?
(37:55):
What is the color?
What is the angle that is goingto give that?
What I did with my short film,dark goddess that goes with the
exhibition of the photographyand the, the archives that I dug
in.
And, um, for museum's collectionthere, I took a mash up of all
(38:16):
these different things, likefound footage of previous film
and things.
Some of my original stuff that Ishot mixed with, you know, how
is Carrie Carol?
How is one of the scenes fromCarrie?
Very reminiscent to what arecent director did with Ari's
the short series on Netflix andlook, and I did it, I put'em
(38:37):
right next by side by side and Idid this, you know, we're always
doing it and right.
Technically it's going back andlooking at the language, um,
point of view.
Mm-hmm the first,second, third, is it gonna be
OmniGen storyteller like in TonyMorrison's jazz.
Who is that speaking?
(38:58):
Mm-hmm thistimeless voice, right?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah.
I feel like a cool like exercisefor someone to do, like at the
end of their day would to be, tosearch for the times during that
day that they did that, wherethey were somewhere, but
somewhere else at the same time,I think that would be a really
(39:23):
interesting sort of reflectionon your day.
And it might get people tounderstand that they're cuz
you're, you're like you'realready doing it.
You just need to accept it andthen use it.
You know?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I love did SHTA freeze up.
Maybe
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I might have left.
We might have lost her.
Yep.
Oh, okay.
I know
Speaker 2 (39:50):
it's such a
great conversation.
I know.
I love, um, she'll be comingback.
I love the idea of what she wastalking about, about taking a
memory.
May it be a trauma and look itfrom the perspective of say the,
the person that you felt did itto you.
You know what I mean?
So say in, say in like gradeschool, I had a crush on a boy
(40:12):
and he didn't like me, but Ibecame so traumatized for my,
you know what I mean?
And what if I was that boy?
Like she said,,
Speaker 1 (40:20):
You know, oh, I did you mean
Speaker 2 (40:22):
How that would mean story?
Like recontextualize yourmemories and your life story
through that?
Wouldn't that be powerful that Ithink writing that down.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah.
I also, yeah, it's this, um, youknow, she plays a lot with
perspective and identity and whoyou think you are, who you think
everybody else wants you to be.
Mm-hmm who you arein present time, but also who
are you in?
Um, current time.
(40:54):
Hello?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
we were just
riffing
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Off I'm can you, oh, I can't hear you.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
You can't hear us.
Can you hear us
Speaker 3 (41:07):
See here?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Technology
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Difficulties?
Well, maybe should on again, goahead.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh, just, uh, yeah, I think it's a beautiful exercise
to really look at memories andtrauma.
And I never thought of thatlooking at through the eyes of
the person, not yourself, butthat person that you think did
it to you, you think did it toyou you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah.
I think there's a lot of, um, Ithink there's a lot of sort of,
um, taking your right, like shewas saying, taking yourself back
into that, but also what can youlearn from this situation?
Um, right.
She's definitely not playing thevictim role she's taking.
Right.
And I love that.
(41:52):
Okay.
Can you hear, can you hear usnow?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yes.
Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.
Yes.
We were just,
Speaker 2 (41:57):
We were just riffing.
I love, I love the idea of whatyou said.
Like, I love the idea of likethe memoir going back into your
life and bending time.
And actually, so I love like mymetaphor would be, so I had a
crush on this boy when I was in,you know, elementary school and
he didn't like me and I thoughtI was the victim.
Right, right.
But what if, if I'm the boy, doyou know what I mean?
And what is he, did he feel andhow that, that is healing and
(42:21):
that is, it's amazing.
I think it's profound.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
It gives you, it gives you, it gives you some
freedom.
Yeah.
And it also, it's one of thosethings where you memory in and
of itself is a time trick.
Anyway, anytime they found thatanytime the more we retell
something, the less accurate itbecomes.
(42:46):
Right.
That's true.
Versus the memory that we leavealone until we surface it.
Right.
So it's not going back in like afile cabinet, untouched, their
fingerprints all over it.
That's yeah.
And you know, maybe it's notnecessarily a memoir, maybe it's
through verse.
Maybe it's through, I'm a, I'vebeen journaling since I was 12
(43:10):
years old, you know, I keep, youknow, record, you know, how do
we, you know, how are we bearingwitness?
How are we thinking about thosethings?
And even if it's not forhealing, maybe it's just
something that's a part of thetapestry that we just wanna
recognize and say, I'm justgonna put this here.
It's a, you know, excavating.
(43:30):
I often use that term of theexcavating and playing in my own
seller hole.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I was thinking the word archeology for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, yeah.
And I also, I, yeah, I gottaappreciate, um, you kind of
brought me off on my ownpedestal for a minute there and
I appreciate that it's that you,it didn't, you're suggesting it
doesn't have to be anything.
It just is.
It's this thing.
And, and I think there's a lotof power in that.
A lot of people would assumethat that is taking away from
(44:00):
the experience, but I actuallythink you're inviting a lot more
people to it.
And, um, you know what I mean?
Because like I'm over herebecause you know, I want
everybody to take an art break.
I'm kind of obsessed with it.
And so I get on that train oflike, you should do it because
of this.
You should do it because ofthat.
And you're over here, like youshould just do it.
And I think just
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
That's also like, there's, there's,
Speaker 3 (44:22):
I'm better than Nike.
I'm better than Nike with Nike,the sweat shops.
Like, even though I'm guilty, Ihave some Nike shoes, but it's
like,, I'm like, betterthan that.
Like, like just do it, just godo it.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Just go do it.
I mean, that's like sometimes,you know, cuz I'm like, I'm, I'm
holding people's hands and I,and I want them because I want
them to do it.
Right.
Because I know what happens whenyou do it.
I've you know, I know whathappens when you take in our
break, I've done it severaltimes.
I've watched everybody do it.
And so I, I wanna find thatright.
Language like you weresuggesting and maybe some people
(44:55):
just need to hear that.
Just go do it, just go do it.
It doesn't need to be anything.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Um, don't don't put it, put a thing on it because
once you put a thing on it, likemy, I would say like
relationships, you start how,and it's this thing.
And then it has to be courtshipand then it has to be a thing.
Then we have to call itsomething.
No, we don't just cuz then itgoes into that realm of
justifying.
Mm.
And then you need to account fortime.
(45:20):
Nope.
Nope.
Even if you're just picking upaudio files on your, I do this a
lot.
Pick up the phone, hit record,speak into it.
Doesn't have to be anything.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I have a lot of stuff that's like not necessarily on
route to being published.
I don't know what, what I'mgonna do with it.
It's just there just hangingout.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
It's like the human being versus the human doing.
But you know, I mean that that'salways said, right.
And this is all about being,just being, but also like, I
mean, what I'm, when we'retalking to you, I'm thinking
like if you're being and youjump on that magic carpet,
there's, there's a ride you'regonna go on.
I mean it's unlimitedimagination when I look at you,
(46:03):
your pure imagination.
Right?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Thank you.
Well, I mean, I hope, I mean,this is, I mean prime example,
mm-hmm uh, youknow, my best friend was like
this, you know, I get to herplace and she's like, oh, you
know, we were due to leave thenext day.
We didn't know what time we'regonna leave.
We're just gonna figure it out.
No rushing.
I was like, wow, you mean like,what am I gonna, this is so
(46:25):
cool.
We check out this abandonedplace that looked really looked
like it had no path.
We did that.
Then we just, you know, got toour destination.
And then we're like, what do wewanna do?
We'll just drive around.
Let's see what's nearby.
Let's just do that.
I used to always, um, when I'dgo to DC for conferences years,
(46:47):
I loved nothing more than aditch in my bags and just walk
around like mm-hmmDuPont circle or whatever.
I didn't know where I was goingand I'm not from there.
I didn't have any agenda.
I just walked.
I was just like, I'm just gonnawalk.
I'm just gonna see what'saround.
I want a nose around.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah.
Nose around.
I mean let's nose around life.
I mean, thank you very much.
I think that's great.
I appreciate you taking the timeto talk to us.
I feel like honestly, I couldtalk to you all day.
Yeah.
Um, so, I hope we canspeak to you again in the
future, but for now.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Thank you.
Thanks for
Speaker 2 (47:19):
We get on so many things.
You know what I mean?
It's almost like we have toexcavate what we were talking
about.
cause
Speaker 3 (47:25):
I
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Know,
Speaker 3 (47:27):
I know, like I find that with a lot of conversations
where I step back and I'm like,wow, let me think about this.
Like I'm just sitting there, myfriends do this to me all the
time.
I have awesome friends.
They'll say something.
They'll like, oh, I wanna justdrop this question in your ear.
What do you think of this?
And then I take that questionand sometimes I ask other
friends oh, and this islike this whole string.
(47:50):
And I'm just like, what do youthink about this?
I was thinking about blah, blah,blah.
Some, I mean it's out.
Some of it's like really outthere and I'm like, oh yeah,
like.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Well, thank you very much.
Um, I'm gonna go ahead and signoff for now and we'll maybe
we'll be talking to
Speaker 3 (48:06):
You again in future.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Welcome.
We're here,
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We're here.
And Lisa and Lauren's there.
We're really excited today.
We have SHTA Lee Gander here.
Um, just tell us a little bitabout your passion for art,
creativity, poetry, and a scenein the unseen
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Thank you.
Um, it's pretty fitting, cuzlike I just shared before we got
started live, uh, my best friendand I were creeping around at
night, just looking at some ofthe bones and structures of
history here in Pennsylvania.
I love abandoned places.
Uh, I write across genres.
Um, I love exploring, especiallythe unseen within the south, but
(00:42):
also the unseen within thelandscape.
Um, actually very fitting theday before we were, uh, crawling
around, I was on my belly takingpictures of some tiny people's
village.
That was a part of an amusementpark crumbling structures.
So I find that on the page oreven if it's behind my camera,
like there are always thingsrevealed, you know, in
(01:05):
landscape.
Um, especially if we're talkingtopography of self and I just
all around love to create.
Um, recently I got into somelittle bit of film making, um,
for my exhibition, dark goddess,an exploration of the sacred
feminine that's up right now atthe filming museum of arts.
So yeah.
Um, here's actually my firstbook, ghetto claustrophobia
(01:29):
dream of mama while trying tospeak woman in Wil tongues and
my second book, um, blackmetamorphs, which is a
conversation with avid D iscoming out next year through a
TRUS skin press ghetto Clausphobias through odes.
So yeah, that's I, I love tocreate and I find, I love that
this is a dialogue like back andforth cuz that's a part of my
(01:52):
creation process too.
Oh,
Speaker 1 (01:54):
That's good.
Yeah.
I mean it's um, it's interestingbecause you know, you're you're
I was going across and lookingat all your work, I've read some
of your poetry and some of yourwritings and you would call it
multifaceted and it, but, but itmakes total sense given what
you're interested in doing, um,of course it would be
multifaceted because that'sexactly what you're talking
(02:15):
about.
You're talking about themultifaceted self identity,
multifaceted cultural identityrelationship with uh, history
and the future and the presenttime and things like that.
And I feel like, uh, when, whenLisa and I started to like dig
into your work and stuff, we, wethought a lot about storytelling
and the power of art to tellone's own story, but also to
(02:37):
tell the story of us.
Um, and so the question we sortof thought we would dive into is
how art can help someone, uh,share their story.
So how do you think art can dothat?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's funny because the whole idea or concept of
storytelling in and of itself,like if we take it off the
mantle, not to say sometimes Ithink we put a lot of things on
mantle art, you know, and artcarries this whole heavy weight
and then it implies that someonehas to be an artist and capital
(03:13):
artist and all that.
But I wanna step back and untillayer of story itself, story
itself.
Cause as I thought about thatquestion in preparation for
this, I thought is so bold andso human and we live for stories
and everybody does it.
Even for people who say I'm notcreative or I'm not an artist or
(03:40):
I don't, whatever things we liketo claim, we're not, but get
somebody on a good topic right.
Of a story.
And we learn it from ourfamilies.
And I, I think there's a wayit's funny because I think
stories also serve, um, theyserve different purposes.
I, I feel like storytellers andthat those we, um, share stories
(04:00):
with around the fire, they canbear as our witnesses, you know?
And it's also improv.
I was thinking about this, youknow, my best friend and I, we
were, we were actually plotting,oh, what stories are we gonna
tell around the table?
we're gonna, we gotta tell thisstory.
We gotta tell this story.
We gotta tell that story.
(04:21):
Cuz we do this co told narrativea lot.
And people do that.
People do that all the timewhere people will retell
something and they'll say, no,no, no, it happened like this.
Or I remember that, well weforgot this part.
And it, sometimes it can be apart of healing, but sometimes
the reason why I step back fromthat is I say, well, the other
(04:44):
question that becomes, doesheart heart have to take on that
responsibility of having to fixsomething?
Or is this because we're sharingbecause once you put a story out
into the universe and it becomescommunity pots and then we're,
we're getting something from it.
It's like, I always comparethings a lot to sculptures and
(05:06):
how different people, dependingon what they're seeing and
walking around, they will allsee different things.
Oh yeah.
And that's how it is with ourlives even and memory.
And so it all, I think it it'skey.
It's inherent to what we do ashuman beings.
It's not necessarily attached togiving it a time actually giving
(05:28):
it its title to say it's, eventhough it is, it is art, but to
make it accessible is just whatwe do.
If we think about it, it's justwhat we do because we also tell
stories to ourselves almost likeLua buys.
Right.
Um, we repeat things toourselves.
That's why we have to be carefulabout what we're telling
(05:48):
ourselves.
Great.
Right.
So it's like so key, it's alsokey in not recounting our lives,
but in making our lives.
And if we so wish on stitchingand stitching something back
together, we can change apattern with a story.
(06:12):
I feel like, I feel like IRamed, but I, my God,
Speaker 2 (06:16):
No, that made what I really, what I really like.
Uh, I love that you used theword bio mythic.
Talk about that because I love,I love the idea of living her.
Life's like mythology, like abig story.
You were talking about creating
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Story,
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Like the heroes journey or the heroines journey,
right?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It was yeah.
Cause it it's okay.
So I was thinking about this ZNOHutten popped into my head the
other day.
And I was thinking about Jamie,their eyes were watching God.
I was like, wait a minute.
That was the heroines.
She was the heroines journeybefore we recognized.
Or we recognize that there wasthe hue missing or whoever the
(06:57):
individual's journey.
Right.
And mythology is huge as I, Imean, I just mentioned, um, so
my second book, black metamorphdisease is coming out through a
trust compressed next year atsome point.
And it just felt natural.
Now, even though I pick onmyself even and say, okay, the
(07:20):
Greek mythology, everybody andthe grand mama and their dog and
their cats done it, but how canI do it?
Right.
We know that's true.
But then how can we do it in away?
I mean, it still plays out inour headlines last year, it was
naked Athena.
I'm like Athena, you know, whichis hence my, you know, dark
(07:43):
goddess has been long beforethat for years just sitting in
my body.
But thinking about who else isin this Pantheon, what other
female energy feminine embodiesare in this Pantheon also beyond
just deifying or reifying?
What we say is the, the good orthe great, how do we look at
(08:06):
this also?
How do we, can we look at ourflaws through the lessons we get
from them?
And I think that's the bold mythand even fairy tales play.
It's like, how do we, how can wemine that?
And look at that and not turnaway from it.
Mm-hmm
shadow work.
I, I don't it's like that.
That's so that's too like,whatever it is, but I've always
(08:28):
drilled into the, the balance ofthe dark, like all, all of that,
but the dark is the good and thejuicy and how can we take that?
And how can also that be a partof our story.
And I think we all have accessto mythmaking and it, we don't
have to beat anything.
(08:49):
We're not in order to access it.
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Right?
You, well, just like, just likeyou were saying, right.
Everybody has their own story.
Everybody has their ownperspective because they have
their own experience.
So of course everybody wouldhave their own myth.
My question is, is that, I feellike since we're talking about
storytelling, actually feel likea lot of stories that we are
told and then inevitably maybetell ourselves yes.
Are actually are packed withlessons that, that are maybe not
(09:23):
the thing we should actually belearning mm-hmm
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Mm-hmm
think about it as a learnedbehavior and I've been using the
word a lot in my own mind.
Like what kind of messaging didI receive as a child through
those stories, through thosemyths.
Right.
Um, right.
I mean, just any, any fairytalethat I, uh, let's just, let's
just talk about, you know, uh,Disney, uh, fairy tales when you
(09:48):
were younger and things likelittle
Speaker 3 (09:50):
There's there's a little mermaid, little mermaid
is very, literally, that's avery telling one actually, cuz
she gave up her tongue.
She, you remember that?
Yeah.
Where like she literally tradedfor some legs, Ursula shed.
(10:10):
I mean that's a whole yeah,right?
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
What kind of thing does thattell a young female?
When, because little mermaid, uh, if you can't tell she was my
FA because I could, I actuallyidentify with her, she's a red
head.
I was like, oh yeah, that's me.
And then I'm
Speaker 3 (10:29):
What,
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Um,
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Me,
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I'm not the
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Person I pump the brakes, like, wait a minute,
wait, pump the brakes.
I don't hold my tongue that way.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Right.
I don't hold my tongue.
And so right.
But, but that, but it's alsolike how is that not being, um,
ingested by me because I watchedit, I memorized it.
So of course it was beingingested by me.
Of course, course I, it wasimpacting me, even though I had
a separate person inside my ownbrain being like, no thanks.
(10:58):
So, right.
So I think we need to talk aboutthe, it's not only about using
art to tell your story, but it'sabout like what kind of story is
being like almost put on top ofyou through, you know, I mean, I
don't know how to,
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Well, no, that actually, it makes a lot of
sense because so my firstgraduate degree, when I was
wrapping up my MBA, I did somework around the grand narrative.
I looked at feminism cuz likenarrative in the business world
started to be something that waslike less woo, woo.
More viable.
(11:34):
How do you tell the story ofyour organization?
How do you do it with funders?
How do you do it with investment?
And I started looking at well,what if the whole idea of
narrative, how would I look at awhole movement?
If it were an organization Idrew up this whole model got
lazy, never published it.
Mm-hmm
And it like for research and thewhole idea of the grand
(11:56):
narrative, which is big becausethere's, there are you're right.
You're bringing up these layers,right?
There's the layers of, well, youknow, I am the myth or I am the
one who's who can choose how Iperceive.
Then they're the layers of thenyour family or your friends or
work or whatever is going totell you how to perceive said
things.
So for example, this is a brief,quick example, Maggie Gillen
(12:19):
hall and the lost daughter.
What is that?
How is, how is that character inthat telling us about how we
should feel about the mother whoseems selfish, who seems
self-serving right.
So it's just like, there's alayer like a woman or, or a
female identifying person couldsay, okay, yeah, I'm a woman.
(12:40):
And then I'm a mother and thensociety, then the grand
narrative about what a mother issupposed to be.
Mm-hmm
she's supposed to look in themirror and say, get, go F off
girl, nobody got time for youbecause you're gonna get to
these kids.
And then if you're married, thenoh yep.
Stand back in the line, girl,you gotta get to X, Y, and Z
(13:02):
this.
And I think that's why I zonedin a little mermaid.
And so this narrative that isset up and also depending on how
your family roles, right.
This narrative of how you'resupposed to be, what's expected
and then how we then mediatebetween those things and those
gaps in addition to mediatingwith or against, or for
(13:26):
ourselves.
When we come in contact withthings that kind of challenge
what we've been tellingourselves about ourselves,
layered on what other peopletold us about ourselves or what
they said we should.
And then also then it makes itall the more greater
responsibility I think.
And then for myself, as someonewho is creating clean stuff in
the world, I personally wantpeople to be able to look at my
(13:49):
things or experience them andengage or go hopefully on their
own inquiry or own request insome way, shape or form or think
in some, some way and ask somequestion about what's beneath
the surf.
Um, mm-hmm
being mine or about me, themoment it's in a book or the
(14:12):
moment it's hanging on the wallor the moment I put something
out, then people are runningwith it and having their own
conversations hopefully, ordoing their own things with it.
And so therefore there and also,so, and then if we look at it
another, if we get out of mesounding semi woo, woo
There is the area of what youstarted with what we're told.
(14:37):
So history, why example ofhistory, like looking at who and
what is missing in between thosegaps, what we repeat, what we
repeat about all sorts ofthings.
And it's easy to then say, oh,I'm just gonna repeat this.
And then when you look back atit, you're like, actually that
(14:59):
was that there's some missinginformation, right?
Like I'm sure that's both of youat certain points, right?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah.
I love it.
Well, you're really talkingabout is programming and
conditioning.
And what I love about this iswhat I'm, I'm taking from your
dark goddess series is the darkgoddess is like Lilith or
segment or HACA.
And they're like, usually they,the patriarchy is so afraid of
them.
Right.
Right.
(15:26):
So it's like, for me, what Ithink is the dark goddess, like
shakes'em up and then, you know,they, they get scared.
And so I, I love the reclamationof the dark goddess within the
feminine, in the sacredfeminine, because we are
conditioned to think, you know,um, Camelot, you know, where the
Knight saves the, you know, ohyes,
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Saves
Speaker 2 (15:48):
The princess and you know, we're, we're, we're weak
and you know, and so we're thedark goddess is actually like,
no, you know, I have the powerhere and she's empowered and it
is
Speaker 3 (15:58):
The dark word.
She may, at times where her ownchildren, at times she may be
leaning back on her haunches,howling into the night.
take her tongue.
She'll take yours before.
Exactly take.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah.
Right.
And it's also at the same timeas talking about going, I love
this.
I love this idea of goingbackwards in our historical
storytelling and filling inthose gaps and not being afraid
of what it might conjure upinside ourselves.
And, and, and that, you know, alot of your work is about fear,
(16:35):
but it's about fear of yourself.
And then it's a, it's a fear ofself and it's just like, I love,
I like the, all it, it is.
It's just across the board.
And so like, what if we did goback, what do you think would
happen if we actually startedtelling the whole story?
(16:55):
Cuz you are definitelyinterested in the whole, you're
a very holistic, right?
Yeah.
You're not like just the good,just the bad, just this you're
like, no, let's just the entiresuitcase and look at every piece
and then come up with an outfit.
Right.
So I
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Mean, I do that myself too.
I do that with myself.
It's not gonna like sell pitchmyself as, oh, I'm like this.
Nope.
They're all sorts of pieces allthere and I'm looking at them
and they're looking at me.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Right, right.
So how do you do that?
Do you do that through yourwriting?
Is that how you mm-hmm
yourself?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I do well for myself and also, I don't know.
I mean, it's different, right?
If I'm interviewing someone, mygoal is, you know, as a
journalist seek the truth,right?
Mm-hmm
layer for me is always creatingthe space so that this person,
(17:59):
and I can have this space wherewe're creating something
together and then like it goesout, uh, poetry.
I don't always, I'm not incontrol of what, like even
actually sometimes my pros, likewhat's gonna come out or I think
about something, I keepsketchbook for 1,000,001 things.
And it's just like, what's gonnacome out.
(18:20):
And it is integrating thesepieces.
I think I'm not saying this isthe only reason why we're all
having a hard time right now.
I mean, there are layers, thereare so many layers, but in the
technical normal, before 2020,right.
(18:41):
Technical, technically normal,the normal that was working for
nobody.
We, we know this true.
It's, there's a way that there'sa fear in not if you reveal
certain parts of yourself.
So we're always trading andnegotiating these masks.
(19:04):
If we don't do that verycarefully, we get punished.
And we've seen this some amongus who get punished for not
negotiating those masks verycarefully.
Mm-hmm
I've only lived in friggingboxes.
I'm over it.
I'm done with it.
Mm-hmm
I just, I can't do boxes.
I can't do.
Um, cuz I already put myself inenough of'em.
(19:25):
I don't I'm I'm trying to likeconstantly trying to free myself
from those.
Therefore I'm hoping, and thisis just based off what other
people have told me about mywork.
They said it was a sense ofpermission.
Hmm.
I'm hoping if people takenothing else, right.
Even if there's a poem, someonedoesn't understand or you know,
I'm telling these stories and mymemoir that I'm working on, I am
(19:46):
scared.
I am like coming up with stuffthat is when my family see, you
know, it's like, they're verysupportive and I'm also afraid
in terms of when I'm around,even certain poems have been
producing lately.
I'm afraid I'm looking at them.
I'm like who and what is thiswhat's going on here?
(20:11):
patron Saint in my own head ofdifferent things and I don't
mean like, oh, patron, statepiece or patron Saint of the
unsaid, patron, Saint of themisbehaving.
Like I'd like to encouragepeople to do those things.
Cause I feel like a part of thereason why we have been having a
hard time as a species is tojust be, what would it look
(20:31):
like?
I, I posted one time as a wholerule questions.
Mm-hmm
institutional GS, what would webe like without male GS?
What would we be like?
And it was riffing off of aquestion that is posed.
Like what would you do for 24hours without Mel gaze?
Like for about women.
And I think what it was attachedto something, but I said, no,
(20:54):
let's go down whole nine withoutfinancial gaze, without all
these waves and all these layersof seeing who would we be?
And like, what's the feralstate?
Like I'm not saying flawless.
It's just like some people blameHanta said no, no, no, I didn't
say that.
But it's like, how could we beright.
Our most seller love that.
(21:16):
And I do try to do that formyself and in doing it for
myself, I hope I can do it orhelp with somebody else's
pathway to that.
Yeah.
If that makes
Speaker 2 (21:24):
For me, sorry.
Oh yeah.
What I love the feral cuz whatwe are domesticated extremely
domesticated.
Right.
And you're, you're asking us tolook in the mirror and go, where
is that wild self?
Where is that fair itself?
I think that's really important.
And for me, what comes up rightnow with women's rights on the
chopping block?
I mean, that's huge.
(21:45):
It's big, it's a big time wherepeople, women and men have to
look in the mirror and reallyquestion themselves.
How can um, how can women whoare in the fear mode?
You know what I mean?
Express it now and then taketheir power back because we're
Speaker 3 (22:02):
We're, that's a good question.
That's a good question becauseI've been okay.
So I used to work inreproductive health several
years ago.
I used to work in public healthseveral years ago.
Very interesting thing isknowing what I know the rights
have always been on a choppingblock.
That's number one, they alwayshave been now for some people
who are just coming to andrealizing what's happening.
(22:25):
It's been now, it's gotten nowto a next level.
Like if we have level threelevel four, level five being the
highest it's gotten that theother thing is, so there are a
couple of things operating forme with that question.
I think of my answer from myfamilial perspective of how I
was raised.
I was raised by, I come from aline of women who never were
(22:47):
gonna hand themselves over toanybody, not even to their male
partners that was not happening.
And I was taught to be thatperson I was taught.
You are not handing yourselfer.
And so therefore take yourselfback now.
I, you know, early Tony'sthinking, ah, that doesn't seem
quite right.
(23:07):
That doesn't seem right.
That doesn't seem nice.
It's like mm-hmm,
And then I've like turnedaround.
I was like, now actually there'slisten to that.
I'm gonna speak the language ofthe women upon whose shoulders I
stand on.
Mm-hmm
And so I had just been sayingrecently over the past few years
to friends, you know, takeyourself back, but different
(23:27):
people, people take yourselfback.
I think we've given so much ofourselves over that.
We didn't realize how exhaustedwe were until there was a moment
that forced, again, those of uswho could afford to be at home
or not have jobs that forced usto be in public space where we,
it was a force, you have to besitting with yourself.
(23:48):
You have to realize how much ofyourself was at stake.
Yeah.
Always handing yourself over.
And so what would be my thoughtsabout that?
I say become a thief.
Am my that.
I mean go theft time, go thefttime for yourself.
(24:09):
Even if it's four or fiveminutes, maybe some might look
at me and say, it's easy for youto say you don't have kids.
Sure.
But I wear many roles in mypersonal life.
Theft time, if you cannot have ashe shed, if you cannot, you
know, you're not in that place,do it in your car.
If you can't do it in your car,go do it in a friend's house or
(24:32):
whatever theft time.
Whether it's five minutes.
What
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Argue for five.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think what you said about like, well you don't have kids.
I get, I have three kids and Iget really mad when people tell
people who don't have kids.
Well, you don't have kidsbecause I actually think
especially women who don't havekids will fill their lives to
the top.
Sort of like prove somethingbecause if they can't be a
(25:00):
mother, what can they be?
Um, because you it's
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Almost like they're trying to prove something.
That's a really
Speaker 1 (25:06):
They're and that, and I just, I usually what bothers
me the most about it, it's womensaying it to women and I'm just
like people we got, we got a lotof work to do.
And if we're, if we're up over
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Here, like each other, we do, we're beating each
other in a ship we do with that.
Yeah.
And it's funny because I didparent, I was a ified child.
I was in charge of my brotherwho has special needs and a two
family, a two parent home.
I was made to be in charge ofhim.
And so I kind of did mother andthen what I did, I architected
(25:47):
to take myself back from thathousehold.
Right.
But I was headed to collegelike, and I was like, I gotta
take myself back.
And so I feel like my whole lifehas been an act of taking myself
back.
But speaking to one of the, thepoints that, you know, both have
made, if we're in red alertmode, mm-hmm
we're in red alert mode andthat's going through your
nervous system, mm-hmm
(26:09):
could you properly, properlytake yourself back?
And I think it also goes back tosurrounding ourself with some
kind of nourishment so that weare surrounding ourselves to
people who do give us thatpermission.
We're not telling each other,well, you're not a mother or you
are a mother and therefore, youknow, or you, you work or you
don't work or whatever that is.
(26:31):
And don't, and isn't, and is,shaming, all the things that we
do where we're like, well, so,and so's this.
And it's just like, yeah, well,you know what?
She charges for her time.
Can we learn from that?
Can we learn from that?
Mm-hmm
(26:53):
down, be like, I need to inviteyou to the table and let's share
some, uh, you know, ingredientsand figure it out.
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah.
What, what can I right.
Like approach it with eitherholding it every time you feel
yourself going this direction,either hold up a mirror or ask
yourself, what can I, what can Ilearn from them as opposed to,
how can I judge them?
What can I learn from them?
Can I take away from thisexperience?
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah.
We've been, I love that.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah.
I love your idea of taking time.
I mean, it's, it's so funny tome that that sounds
controversial and that's like,
Speaker 3 (27:29):
It's a, actually, there's a thing.
I think I came across where Ithink it was for business ethics
class, where they were talkingabout a case involving theft of
time or something.
I'm like, so I thought of thewhole trope of a time thief.
I love that.
Do it and do the hell out of it,by the way.
(27:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Speaker 3 (27:53):
Cause you know what, because if you, if there is no
youth thief thieving your time,then people will take you
including people's jobs.
People will literally take youand squeeze you out like a
washcloth.
Then when they're done, theywon't even re-wash you anymore.
And lovingly dry you and put youback.
They'll just tos you aside andget another washcloth to ring
out theft time,
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Theft time it's well, theft time is self care, right?
Just
Speaker 3 (28:19):
It, it is.
It is.
And, and I don't mean that evenit it's so sad how all of these
things would come buzzy, likeself-care and I'm thinking,
yeah, I'd like that spa andstuff.
But if you don't have spa andstuff, right.
A phone call with somebody willhelp, you know, people, your
community.
I always say that when I'm doingworkshops and things, it's like
(28:39):
build your community, yoursupport system.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Well, yeah, we have a taken outbreak movement and
that's really, it's not, it'snot like going to the spa.
It's like just sit down anddraw, you know, or make a line.
Or if you're mad at hell, just,you know, walk in nature.
So that's really one of ourmissions as artists moving to
recontextualize what it does orwhat it means to do self care.
(29:06):
It's very simple on some level
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Completely.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah.
Right.
And it doesn't have to becompletely stolen by some
hashtag and stuff like that.
It's basically right.
A thing that, um, you doactually, and I believe that you
do have to take it back.
That is the part of you that youneed.
Right?
Like you're, you have to takeback so much of yourself, but
one of those things, um, and I'msure it's another culture, but
(29:29):
I've only lived in an Americanculture.
So I'm just gonna comment onthat.
Right.
I think American culturebasically is like that this, and
maybe the reason self-care hasto be a hashtag mm-hmm
Or me, this is my personalexperience.
I think I have to work and likeearn my relaxation and I'm and
(29:53):
I'm over here.
Like it's, I'm trying you'rethat's that should just be part
of living.
That should just be part ofbeing.
Yeah.
And it's not
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Really.
Isn't great.
Well, no, it's true.
You, you have a point where itreminds me of the earn your
living.
Right?
What do you do to earn yourliving or I hate, I really hate
the question of, well, you mustpay the bills and I'm just like,
I wanna say, well, how are youpaying that mortgage on being a
human?
Now I never said that.
(30:23):
I'm not gonna say that toanybody.
Cuz that's really snarky.
But
yes.
You know, I'm not.
So there are lots of movementshappening to challenge, all
sorts of things.
So for me, I'm not like anti I'mnot anti money.
For example, I'm not, I gottaeat.
(30:45):
I got, I got things to do.
I like things.
I like to go do things.
And that requires right money.
Um, but what I will say is the,the whole, the way we judge
people's busy or leisure, youknow, it's just like, are you
doing something?
And are you, I'm now the worstattitude because I am cursed
(31:08):
with over achievement.
So it's just like, you know, youasked me what I'm doing.
And I could like, oh, I'm doingthis, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this, this, this,this right.
Um, and we, in order to create,actually you do actually
sometimes need that space fornothing.
You need the space for that'sright.
To just, you know, no one'stalking to you or no, one's
(31:31):
asking you a question or you'renot beating yourself down.
If deadlines are real.
Yes.
I'm not gonna sit a parent andsay, they're fake you can't
mythologize deadline, unless youhave some powers.
But you know, it's like, it is athing.
It's a negotiation.
It is definitely a negotiation.
And thinking about how do we, itis that, that inquiry of, I, I
(31:55):
once read a quote, it wassomething about a woman who's on
her deathbed.
Now, sometimes you don't know ifthey're making this stuff up,
they make stuff up like this.
It's like, whatever, whether sheexisted or not.
Um, you know, a woman on adeathbed who basically at the
end of faith, wasn't thinking, Iwish I clocked in earlier.
Right.
I wish I paid that on time.
(32:16):
I wish I did X, Y, and Zinstead.
She's like, well, I wish I atemore ice cream.
I wish I did this.
I wish I did that because likeright now we do things like
we'll beat ourselves up.
Oh, I ate that.
I shouldn't have ate that, oh, Iwant to go do this thing.
I shouldn't have did that.
I shouldn't.
And it's just like, actually,you know, what, if something
were to happen when yournumber's called, are you gonna
(32:40):
be sitting there?
Really?
No, you're gonna wish you werelike, oh my God, I should have
gotten to some bigger trouble.
I should have gotten to biggertrouble.
Just go big.
Yes, go do it.
And I'm not saying harmony,anybody in the process of that,
but like go.
So I try to work backwards ofthe life.
I kind of wanna, if I'm luckyenough to have a deathbed in my
(33:02):
old age, I want to be able tosay, you know what?
I wanted to do those things.
And I did mm-hmm
wanted to meet.
I saw the places I wanted to seego.
I do go to abandoned places.
I, I wasn't allowed, I wasstrict childhood.
So, you know, I'm living myteenagehood kind of with some
(33:23):
adulting.
I just wanna warn everybody.
I'm I'm an adult.
I play one on TV.
I impersonate one as my bestfriend say she was like really,
really good at it.
Impersonating an adult.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
I love it.
I love
Speaker 2 (33:35):
It.
Wow.
Interesting.
I, I love the idea of bendingtime, cuz the time keeps on
coming up in this, in thisconversation and that time is
actually controlling us on somelevel.
Um, so how do we bend time andstorytelling?
And as we bend time, how do wetake ourselves back?
Do you know what I mean?
(33:55):
How, how can we, how can youguide somebody a listener right
now to, to be courageous andcurious and just,
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, that's what I was, that's what I was thinking
is like, how are you not afraidto do it?
How are, how, how did, okay.
How did you figure it out?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I, I grew up in a household where camp was in a
word that you used, you don'tsay you can't do something
mm-hmm
So as I've been writing andstuff has been coming up,
instead of saying, God, thatsounds so scary.
That sounds horrible and hard.
I'm not gonna write it.
I just write it.
(34:37):
When it comes specifically tospending time, there is this one
chapter I'll never forget.
And my it's a working, I saymemoir ask, cuz I'm doing a lot
of bending with it.
And there was a chapter whereit's um, oh, I think I took it
from marque.
Um, one of the titles of hisbooks, blah, blah, blah,
(35:00):
melancholy, horrors.
But what I did is I turned itinto mama's melancholy men folk
or something.
I was talking about my motherand I embodied, I inter looped
some of her story with mine.
And what I did is I embodied theboys.
I came in contact with, I becamethem on the page and I went back
(35:26):
in time.
I was going back in time.
I became them.
I was the one asking for mynumber Uhhuh.
I was the one doing certainthings and, and breaking certain
boundaries.
Mm I was the one that instead ofme having the crush on this boy
going, I'm the one that's theboy who's being watched.
(35:48):
And I did that and it wow.
The, the way also there is sucha thing in, in writing of time
control, it comes down to, in avery practical sense, your
tenses past present, future, howyou're navigating it.
Um, how you're doing that all ina paragraph, how you're doing
(36:10):
that all in one sentence, um,memento.
Um, was it Christopher Nolandirected by Christopher Nolan?
If you look at that movie andthere's a video, I forget the
video on YouTuber.
He describes how he did thestoryline.
I think certain parts of thestoryline are in black and white
and then the other parts movingin another way are in color to
(36:30):
look at that and to look at, um,lost order.
I know I keep referencingthanking one of my students.
They, they suggested that andit, the way it does, we, we do
it already, right?
The way we do it, if we justthink of something simple,
right?
How many people have been on thezoom call or in a meeting mm-hmm
(36:51):
Why?
Because they need to write downthings like milk, sugar, flour,
they are in a meeting.
And they're thinking aboutwhat's gonna happen at the end
of that day mm-hmm
someone may even do something.
And then you're taking back tobeing 12 years old.
So what you just did, we're allwalking time machines.
(37:13):
And we do that.
We're already to do it inwriting mm-hmm
you know, people may do it on acanvas, right?
You may capture something as itwas, or you may put something in
the landscape that wasn't there.
Um, we do it and it's looking atsomething in space and time.
(37:33):
And it's looking carefully aboutthe, with the language that's
being used with the vernacular,how something being said, is
there, um, something that, ametaphor that stands for the
thing of when it's about tohappen, like a movie something's
about to happen?
What's the, what's the music?
(37:55):
What is the color?
What is the angle that is goingto give that?
What I did with my short film,dark goddess that goes with the
exhibition of the photographyand the, the archives that I dug
in.
And, um, for museum's collectionthere, I took a mash up of all
(38:16):
these different things, likefound footage of previous film
and things.
Some of my original stuff that Ishot mixed with, you know, how
is Carrie Carol?
How is one of the scenes fromCarrie?
Very reminiscent to what arecent director did with Ari's
the short series on Netflix andlook, and I did it, I put'em
(38:37):
right next by side by side and Idid this, you know, we're always
doing it and right.
Technically it's going back andlooking at the language, um,
point of view.
Mm-hmm
OmniGen storyteller like in TonyMorrison's jazz.
Who is that speaking?
(38:58):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yeah.
I feel like a cool like exercisefor someone to do, like at the
end of their day would to be, tosearch for the times during that
day that they did that, wherethey were somewhere, but
somewhere else at the same time,I think that would be a really
(39:23):
interesting sort of reflectionon your day.
And it might get people tounderstand that they're cuz
you're, you're like you'realready doing it.
You just need to accept it andthen use it.
You know?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I love did SHTA freeze up.
Maybe
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I might have left.
We might have lost her.
Yep.
Oh, okay.
I know
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I know.
I love, um, she'll be comingback.
I love the idea of what she wastalking about, about taking a
memory.
May it be a trauma and look itfrom the perspective of say the,
the person that you felt did itto you.
You know what I mean?
So say in, say in like gradeschool, I had a crush on a boy
(40:12):
and he didn't like me, but Ibecame so traumatized for my,
you know what I mean?
And what if I was that boy?
Like she said,
Speaker 1 (40:20):
You know, oh, I did you mean
Speaker 2 (40:22):
How that would mean story?
Like recontextualize yourmemories and your life story
through that?
Wouldn't that be powerful that Ithink writing that down.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah.
I also, yeah, it's this, um, youknow, she plays a lot with
perspective and identity and whoyou think you are, who you think
everybody else wants you to be.
Mm-hmm
are you in?
Um, current time.
(40:54):
Hello?
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Off I'm can you, oh, I can't hear you.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
You can't hear us.
Can you hear us
Speaker 3 (41:07):
See here?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Technology
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Difficulties?
Well, maybe should on again, goahead.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh, just, uh, yeah, I think it's a beautiful exercise
to really look at memories andtrauma.
And I never thought of thatlooking at through the eyes of
the person, not yourself, butthat person that you think did
it to you, you think did it toyou
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah.
I think there's a lot of, um, Ithink there's a lot of sort of,
um, taking your right, like shewas saying, taking yourself back
into that, but also what can youlearn from this situation?
Um, right.
She's definitely not playing thevictim role she's taking.
Right.
And I love that.
(41:52):
Okay.
Can you hear, can you hear usnow?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yes.
Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.
Yes.
We were just,
Speaker 2 (41:57):
We were just riffing.
I love, I love the idea of whatyou said.
Like, I love the idea of likethe memoir going back into your
life and bending time.
And actually, so I love like mymetaphor would be, so I had a
crush on this boy when I was in,you know, elementary school and
he didn't like me and I thoughtI was the victim.
Right, right.
But what if, if I'm the boy, doyou know what I mean?
And what is he, did he feel andhow that, that is healing and
(42:21):
that is, it's amazing.
I think it's profound.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
It gives you, it gives you, it gives you some
freedom.
Yeah.
And it also, it's one of thosethings where you memory in and
of itself is a time trick.
Anyway, anytime they found thatanytime the more we retell
something, the less accurate itbecomes.
(42:46):
Right.
That's true.
Versus the memory that we leavealone until we surface it.
Right.
So it's not going back in like afile cabinet, untouched, their
fingerprints all over it.
That's yeah.
And you know, maybe it's notnecessarily a memoir, maybe it's
through verse.
Maybe it's through, I'm a, I'vebeen journaling since I was 12
(43:10):
years old, you know, I keep, youknow, record, you know, how do
we, you know, how are we bearingwitness?
How are we thinking about thosethings?
And even if it's not forhealing, maybe it's just
something that's a part of thetapestry that we just wanna
recognize and say, I'm justgonna put this here.
It's a, you know, excavating.
(43:30):
I often use that term of theexcavating and playing in my own
seller hole.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I was thinking the word archeology for you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, yeah.
And I also, I, yeah, I gottaappreciate, um, you kind of
brought me off on my ownpedestal for a minute there and
I appreciate that it's that you,it didn't, you're suggesting it
doesn't have to be anything.
It just is.
It's this thing.
And, and I think there's a lotof power in that.
A lot of people would assumethat that is taking away from
(44:00):
the experience, but I actuallythink you're inviting a lot more
people to it.
And, um, you know what I mean?
Because like I'm over herebecause you know, I want
everybody to take an art break.
I'm kind of obsessed with it.
And so I get on that train oflike, you should do it because
of this.
You should do it because ofthat.
And you're over here, like youshould just do it.
And I think just
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Do it.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
That's also like, there's, there's,
Speaker 3 (44:22):
I'm better than Nike.
I'm better than Nike with Nike,the sweat shops.
Like, even though I'm guilty, Ihave some Nike shoes, but it's
like,
Like, like just do it, just godo it.
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah.
Just go do it.
I mean, that's like sometimes,you know, cuz I'm like, I'm, I'm
holding people's hands and I,and I want them because I want
them to do it.
Right.
Because I know what happens whenyou do it.
I've you know, I know whathappens when you take in our
break, I've done it severaltimes.
I've watched everybody do it.
And so I, I wanna find thatright.
Language like you weresuggesting and maybe some people
(44:55):
just need to hear that.
Just go do it, just go do it.
It doesn't need to be anything.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Um, don't don't put it, put a thing on it because
once you put a thing on it, likemy, I would say like
relationships, you start how,and it's this thing.
And then it has to be courtshipand then it has to be a thing.
Then we have to call itsomething.
No, we don't just cuz then itgoes into that realm of
justifying.
Mm.
And then you need to account fortime.
(45:20):
Nope.
Nope.
Even if you're just picking upaudio files on your, I do this a
lot.
Pick up the phone, hit record,speak into it.
Doesn't have to be anything.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I have a lot of stuff that's like not necessarily on
route to being published.
I don't know what, what I'mgonna do with it.
It's just there just hangingout.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
It's like the human being versus the human doing.
But you know, I mean that that'salways said, right.
And this is all about being,just being, but also like, I
mean, what I'm, when we'retalking to you, I'm thinking
like if you're being and youjump on that magic carpet,
there's, there's a ride you'regonna go on.
I mean it's unlimitedimagination when I look at you,
(46:03):
your pure imagination.
Right?
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Thank you.
Well, I mean, I hope, I mean,this is, I mean prime example,
mm-hmm
this, you know, I get to herplace and she's like, oh, you
know, we were due to leave thenext day.
We didn't know what time we'regonna leave.
We're just gonna figure it out.
No rushing.
I was like, wow, you mean like,what am I gonna, this is so
(46:25):
cool.
We check out this abandonedplace that looked really looked
like it had no path.
We did that.
Then we just, you know, got toour destination.
And then we're like, what do wewanna do?
We'll just drive around.
Let's see what's nearby.
Let's just do that.
I used to always, um, when I'dgo to DC for conferences years,
(46:47):
I loved nothing more than aditch in my bags and just walk
around like mm-hmm
I didn't know where I was goingand I'm not from there.
I didn't have any agenda.
I just walked.
I was just like, I'm just gonnawalk.
I'm just gonna see what'saround.
I want a nose around.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah.
Nose around.
I mean let's nose around life.
I mean, thank you very much.
I think that's great.
I appreciate you taking the timeto talk to us.
I feel like honestly, I couldtalk to you all day.
Yeah.
Um, so
future, but for now.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Thank you.
Thanks for
Speaker 2 (47:19):
We get on so many things.
You know what I mean?
It's almost like we have toexcavate what we were talking
about.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
I
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Know,
Speaker 3 (47:27):
I know, like I find that with a lot of conversations
where I step back and I'm like,wow, let me think about this.
Like I'm just sitting there, myfriends do this to me all the
time.
I have awesome friends.
They'll say something.
They'll like, oh, I wanna justdrop this question in your ear.
What do you think of this?
And then I take that questionand sometimes I ask other
friends
(47:50):
And I'm just like, what do youthink about this?
I was thinking about blah, blah,blah.
Some, I mean it's out.
Some of it's like really outthere and I'm like, oh yeah,
like
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Well, thank you very much.
Um, I'm gonna go ahead and signoff for now and we'll maybe
we'll be talking to
Speaker 3 (48:06):
You again in future.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
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