Smut or Not? Separating Steam from Mist

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Oh my gosh.
It has been forever and a day.

Stacy (00:04):
You made a whole person and squeezed it out of your fun
hole.
Yes.
I, I'm sorry that I sent funhole that came out completely
uninvited by me.
I mean, and I think I've grossedmyself out.
It is usually a fun hole.
It had to be a work hole.
I don't know.
Yeah.
And this has not gotten anybetter.
The tunnel of fun.
A tunnel of love became the tunnel tunnel of, oh God,

(00:26):
where's my epidural?
Which was awesome, by the way.
I'm very team epidural.
Yeah.
But yeah, welcome back y'all.
This is exciting to be back.
Oh, we're back in the or den.
Ladies, welcome back to Do forthe Or Den.
Yes.
And also if you guys don't mindme doing a little shameless
plug, my friend Cindy and I alsostarted another podcast.

(00:47):
Called goat tropes or tropegoats.
I can't remember which one, butit's g oat t as in greatest of
all time.
So it's Cindy, me and ourco-host, Gertrude the Goat, who
gives her opinions on whatevertrope we're talking about.
This sounds like a joke, andit's not, we did actually start
this podcast, so I curious,

(01:08):
I will make sure the link is inour show notes so no one has to
Google and figure out which oneit is themselves.
Right.
Gay
goat tropes.
Goat tropes.
We're gonna look up goat smutand they're gonna see some
things.
Oh,
But I mean, sorry.
It means Seders, you know,
SERS, you know, you're not wrong.

(01:28):
You're not wrong.
Sader responds.
Mr.
Thomas.
Oh my, oh my.
Mm-hmm.
And sort of speaking of tropeswe're, we're, we're diving into
kind of a general ish topic.
I feel like in 2025, we gotta,we gotta get grounded now.
There's a lot of crazy stuffhappening in the world, and so

(01:50):
we're kind of, we're getting tosome basics for folks.
Gotta ground some folks.
Part of, and today we're goingto be, we, we wanna talk about
what the hell is smut and, andsussing out, at least from our
perspective.
What is as an, as other peoplemight put spicy books as opposed

(02:10):
to not actually spicy books.
And part of this came out fromus sharing articles.
And Amy, you had shared anarticle from a popular pa not
newspaper online magazine that Iam not thinking of the name
right now, but it was amainstream magazine talking
about here are spicy stuff.
And we're like, wow.

(02:32):
Huh.
But
once again traditional news is about a year and a half
behind the, the curve.
Mm-hmm.
Essentially is what I'm hearing.
Mm-hmm.

Amy (02:39):
Right, right.
No, I, I don't even rememberwhat magazine it was either,
Eugene.
I was
like, when did I share this article?
Oh, it was towards the beginningof the year.
Don't you worry.
Okay, gotcha.
You slept since
then.
Oh, stuff has happened.
Much, many, many things havehappened since then.
Yeah.

Stacy (02:58):
Yeah.
It just reminds me of when RubyDixon blew up on TikTok.
But those of us who really likedRuby Dixon, and, I mean, I hate
to be that asshole, but I hadread the entire fucking series
like three times by the time sheblew up.
And then after she blown up likefour months later, then the
magazines were like Blue Aliens.
You say like, it kind of, itkind of sounds like that,

(03:19):
right?
No.
Okay.
I found it Vulture.
The rise of Rebecca Yaros, themother of Dragon Smut
I'm gonna call shenanigans on phone.
That's a Understood thatwhatever.
Yes.
But that, and that was the wholepoint because especially,'cause
I was thinking of like, we, wehad gone down this this
conversation path especially,and I would remember like

(03:42):
ruminating on this seems to belike an issue for folks like
Sarah J Mass also has run intothe same issue.
Now, I will admit, like in someof her later stuff, she is
managed to be a lot moreexplicit.
But anyone who is like, wow, youknow, a quart of thorns and
roses, that is so S Muddy hasclearly never read that book.

(04:04):
Oh, sweetheart.
Sweetheart.
Or my, my
Precious jewel
or, or they don't quiteunderstand what SM is.
Yes.
To be clear, clear call a littlebit, call me.
Just to be clear, I have I have,I'm completely caught up on that
series.
I have not read the CrescentCity stuff'cause I, I, I have
other stuff on my TBR but I'vedabbled, but

(04:26):
I just, I, I don't, I don't care for Sarah J Mass and
that's not a, I'm not shittingon her, it's just not for me.
Yeah.
I.
I'm on the internet enough.
I feel like her, her major fanladies out there, they keep me
updated and informed plenty.
Mm-hmm.
Most definitely.
And

Amy (04:43):
the funny thing is, there are some in Finley's server
that, that are very much awareand Yep.
Yeah.
There is no shame to anyone whodoes enjoy them.
The hype train kills.
Oh, oh, it does.
It

Stacy (04:58):
can kill.
So if it's overdone and not, andthat happens with anybody, like
that's not a knock on like Yes.
Not at all.
Anybody who's over
hyped.
Yeah.
Yes.
Hell no.
Not at all.
No.
But I, I think it is useful forus to talk about, okay, so what,
what is smut, and I'm going tostart with an icebreaker
question.
What is the spiciest monsterromance you've read and most

(05:22):
specifically on a scale of bellpepper to ghost pepper, how
spicy was it?
Geez.
And go into the specifics of whyit was the way it was.
Like why are you calling itthat?
I think
for me, like that's, that's not an easily answered
question because it also dependson what you're going for.

(05:45):
Because like, I can name plentyof like porn without plot, sty
sty smu, but then.
There's also several books thatI've read where like, it edges
you the entire book.
So by the time they finallyfuck, even if the sex itself
isn't like they did it upsidedown in a swing with a, a Turkey
baster and a can of Vaselinethat you're still like, oh God,

(06:08):
yes, I need a cigarette by thetime they finally get to it.
So really, I context has a lotto do.
I mean,'cause it's kind of thesame idea of you can talk about
the exact same sex act, but ifyou're talking about it in a
psychology class versus gigglingabout it with your friends over
wine or something, that's anentirely different, you know, it
goes from clinical to hot andfrom hot to not depending on, on

(06:29):
setting and things like that.
So.
Right.
I'm over here thinking maybelike examples that are more for
the romantic girlies out there.
There.
Okay.
Romantic.
Lemme think because I, I mean because Ally, all of Finley
fence stuff would Yeah,definitely.
Mm-hmm.
I prefer because I prefer likefive alarm.

(06:52):
Like if you're gonna do it,fucking do it.
Do it, do it.
I want hair pulling, I wantscreaming orgasms, I want fluids
everywhere.
Mm-hmm.
But, but there is a lot to besaid for being edged.
Mm-hmm.
Like one of the best payoffs interms of that I think would be
Ruby Dixon.
I am a Ruby Dixon Stan.
I will not apologize for that.
Same here.
And if you wanna fight me,that's fine.
Let's go outside.
I have heavy shoes I kick but Ithink for me, like the best

(07:13):
payoff in terms of that wouldprobably be bound to the battle.
God.
When Faith and Aaron finally,fuck, you're probably like far
fifth into that book by the timeit finally happens and they have
been dancing.
That is a good point.
Yes.
Or because
most of that like
book is just edging.

(07:35):
Yeah, because I don't even thinkAaron and Faith Kiss until
probably past the halfway point,because it's not until they're
with the, I've forgotten thename of the people.
The the ones who share, shareeverything.
The naan, I think it is.
And Aaron Kisses Faith.
He pulls her to his lap andkisses her because the Lord of
the Keep wanted to partner swap,basically.

(07:56):
And Aaron essentially tells themthat anybody who touches or
loses their hand, but they stilldon't fuck for another, probably
fuck chapters and chapters afterthat.
But but when they finally havesex, like it's, it's raw, it's
primal, but it's notparticularly like shocking.
You know what I mean?
Like, it's not, it's penis andvagina.
There's not a whole lot of like,so I, so again, I think it also

(08:19):
depends on your parameters too.
Like what do you define as asspicy?
Like spicy for you?
Does it have to be weird Penisunusual Sex Act?
Or is it just like intensity?
It's primal.
Ergo it's hotter.
Does it, am I making sense or amI just word salad?
You guys, I, I think

(08:40):
I'm, I'm getting what, what?
What you're, you're trying toget at, I'm over here trying,
thinking like, you know, justamount and focus of like the
erotic stuff.
Like what am the first thingsthat I think of is Catherine
Moon and a Lady of Rooks GraveManor.
I was actually

Amy (09:00):
going to reference sanctuary of Kings, which is, I,
I finally, I finally read theLast of the Tempting Monsters
main story, which was Sanctuarywith Kings last month.
And oh my God, the way that itwas edged between Ivania and

(09:20):
Ester or Sterian, I'm like, I'mlike, took forever.
Please
just go for it.
And, and
I think like objectively too, ifwe were to like throw, we, we
were talk about like, here's,here's how like spicy it can get
like, so a Lady of Oaks, graveManor, you do have like a couple

(09:41):
of orgy scenes, quite frankly,they would be considered like
orgy scenes and in sanctuary forKings that the, the final book
of the Temping Monster seriesthat starts with a Lady of
Brooks Grave Manor.
There's like three differentorgies going on in one room, as
I recall.
Yes.

Amy (2) (10:03):
But then

Amy (10:03):
again, it's kind of the same

Amy (2) (10:04):
way in company of fiends too.
That's a good point.

Stacy (10:08):
Well, that kind of, so many couplings happening
everywhere.
I'm like, okay, that's kind ofher, her like signature, isn't
it?
Like Yeah.

Amy (10:15):
She's

Stacy (10:15):
like, it's just a big old sex party and God bless her for
it.
She's

Amy (10:18):
all about the reverse harem, which I will not say no
to, but I know it's noteveryone's cup of tea.
Mm-hmm.

Stacy (10:23):
Which is okay.
I mean, I'm not like, I, Ipersonally not my taste, but I'm
glad I will fight to the goddamnend to make sure that those
books are still publishedbecause other assholes don't get
to tell other people what theycan and can't read.
Agreed.
Yeah.
I I, I also acknowledge thatthere's there's dark romance as
well.
'cause you can go like reallydark on being sexually explicit.

(10:48):
And I admit I am not, I I am notsuper well-versed into that.
My, I darker romance.
Yeah.
My realm has like, at most likedubious ish mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sort of consent.
Whereas I can, I can suggest
a couple of titles that are full on non-consent.
So, yeah.
I mean, and again, if it's notyour, your like, don't people

(11:09):
don't take this as a dare.
Like, don't think, don't, oh,well this person thinks that.
They're like, I don't know,like.
They're a better smart readerbecause they're reading things
that upset them, leave themtraumatized.
It's like, no, there is nocompetition.
No, this

Amy (11:25):
is the context.
There is no competition here.
We've had this discussionnumerous times, not just here,
but in, in the server, in ourown personal chat.
And it's not a competition.
You find what you like, you

Stacy (11:37):
like, you don't

Amy (11:38):
like what you don't like.
Exactly.
And if you want to step out ofyour comfort zone, that's fine,
but if you need to step backinto it, go for it.
Don't finish a book you're notenjoying because we ain shit

Stacy (11:50):
writing.
Exactly.
Life's too short for writing orlooks too short to read.
I, I should say.
Yes.
Yes.
Pretty much.
So.
I, I guess too, like that alsokind of ties into it for, in
terms of smu, because I canthink of plenty of cozy romance
that is dirty, like HoneyPhillips, when she's on, can

(12:10):
give you some like fluffy,seriously raunchy mind without,
without using raunchyterminology I guess.
But, but at the same time,there's gonna be spanking,
there's gonna be penetration.
There could be butt sex.
Like she doesn't strike me assomebody who shies away from
stuff.
She just doesn't reallyparticularly do the dark stuff.
Right.
Yeah.
She's more Sweet Romance.

(12:31):
Yeah.
Or even Susan Trombley isanother one.
So I recently, I love SusanTrombleys.
I origin, I.
I'm just gonna say origin.
Yes.
A test subject series.
And she has a, she has theoriginal series, which is very
good, but gets dark.
And then, I mean, darkish like,you know, Twilight not in the

(12:55):
book.
You know what I'm getting in myown way here?
Verbally.
It's darkish as in you're in ashaded room.
Not dark as in the lights areout, if that makes sense.
Okay.
Anyway.
Sure.
There's some grim stuff in her,in her stuff, but it's not all
grim.
Dark super.
Correct?
Yes.
But then
she also has her sweet verse spinoff of the original

(13:16):
test series.
And I recently, my favorite inthat series is my Primal Mate.
And I recently got it on audioand I laughed my ass off.
But she's like, there are partsin that book, there's literally
laugh out loud, funny'causethere's a recurring joke where
this like seven foot tall scaledalien as up having to work fast

(13:39):
food.
And he has, okay, please enjoymy spicy wiener when he hands
them their hot dog.
And they all, like all of theemployees have like a tally that
they keep for the number oftimes where somebody makes a
lewd comment in response.
But it's, but, but at the sametime, like her, I can't remember

(14:02):
the name.
The species, God ara.
So her ara are her sort ofreptilian scaled species and
they have what's called a howlor a hunt where, where they go
into a mating hunt.
They do this howl that isabsolutely hair raising and
terrifying.
And he does it at a fuckingHalloween haunted maze.

(14:28):
Oh my goodness.
And chases his potential matethrough the maze and like shaves
part of her costume off thewhole time.
But at the same time, when hefinally gets her like the sex is
super fucking hot.
But this, the scenario is stillfucking hilarious that he
terrorizes an entire fuckinghaunted carnival by howling out

(14:48):
in the, the shit out every humanin, in like an 80 mile radius.
It's really great.
It is really too bad that thisis still just a podcast'cause I
feel like there it would begreat capturing like some
semblance of Amy and I's facialexpressions.

(15:10):
Oh yes.
I tell you, whatever weird shitI'm reading this week.
You should check out the seriesthough.
It's really fucking good.
I'll, it starts with like, it'smy chameleon mate is the first
one, and I can't remember theothers, but they're, excuse me,
very sweet.
Kind of more fluffy romance.
But Susan probably also issomebody who doesn't shy away
from s.
When the spot's pretty hard hotand she does weird pins and the

(15:34):
aian dick is called a matinghook'cause it's got a, a, a a,
an almost like prehensile tip,or I'm sorry, a mating claw.
'cause it's hooked like a claw.
And it has to do with like howit like stimulates the cervix to
open and I think it latches onand everything like that.
So like, it depends, I mean itreally does depend on like what
your definition..
Like basically we're talkingabout like shades of deviancy

(15:56):
here.
And so I guess it depends mean.
Well what is smut to you?
I mean, Stacy, you, what is smutto you?
I'm kind to me smut is on page
sex where everybody's having fun.
Especially me.
Yeah.
I actually, yeah.
I'm down with that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The door is open.
One would say

(16:16):
the car doesn't exist.
Right.
There's no door,

Amy (16:18):
two walls, it's just a bunch.

Stacy (16:21):
And the tickets were free and they gave you popcorn.

Amy (16:23):
And readers are the, the happy voyeurs.

Stacy (16:26):
Yes.

Amy (16:28):
Exactly.
Hopefully, hopefully happyvoyeurs.
If they're not happy, then theyshouldn't be reading it.

Stacy (16:33):
Yeah.
Smut is fun for me.
That's what it is.
It's open door and it's fun.
Mm-hmm.
And that can include like darkromance where it's dark if it's
dark.
Mm-hmm.
But I'm into it.
I'm still having fun.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Amy (16:44):
Honestly, I think one of the most prime examples I think
of for this is probably dovesand Demons by Cleo Evans.
Mm-hmm.
Because.
Again, another reverse here.
I'm sorry, Stacy, I really wish,wish you, I really wish you
could read because I'mfascinating because Mort is, you
would love Mort.
Yeah.
I believe you would love Mort.

(17:06):
I'm

Stacy (17:06):
pretty sure I, I have a fan Art of Mort somewhere on my
phone, so I can believe it.

Amy (17:11):
I mean, yes.
James and Charles are, they'retheir own, their own level of
sexy and spice, but there's justsomething about a shadow Daddy
just gets to you, God, a shadowmurder Daddy, I should say.
Yes.

Stacy (17:28):
Fuck yes.

Amy (17:29):
I mean, that's probably about as close to dubious
consent.
I have, I have gotten to withinwithin my reading so far.
Mm-hmm.
Because right
all scenes involve
Mort and and Amelia, I believe her name is Amelia, or I
can't, what is her name?
Irene.
That's her name.
Okay.
So Amelia, I was totally off thefirst time, but anyways, Irene

(17:52):
and Mort, their scenes are justtotal, like, total utter steam
fest, like mm-hmm.
Sauna in the jungle.
Right.
See in the jungle on a volcano.

Stacy (18:06):
I think that actually brings a piece into play for me
because for smut to besuccessful, for me, I need the
possessive piece.
Hmm.
And a reverse harem by its nature.
Like they might be possessive oflike, no one else is allowed to
touch'em, but I want the kind ofpossessive where it's like, if
anybody touches my significantother, that's it.
It's World War iii.
Yeah.

(18:26):
No, it sort of touches on like,well, that, that's like, it's
like character building.
Mm-hmm.
Like in some way.
Like there's got to be, it's notlike every character has to be
sexually oriented or, or, youknow, focused, but like, it's,
if it's, whether it's a romanceor erotica, it's got, there's

(18:48):
gotta be something in thatcharacter's personality that we,
the readers are allowed to seewhere we're like, wow, they are
horny as hell.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
I, I do think that's gotta be athing.
It needs to be, they're horny as hell and that talks to
me,
right?
Yes.
Right.
And, and, and it come, and thatcan come in many different ways,

(19:09):
like the possessive streak.
Mm-hmm.
Like meet your alpha holes andRight.
Shadow daddies and whatnot.
Well, and that's, God, I love,love
the words.
I do too.
I fucking love that.
I think my favorite terminologythat ever came out was when
Morning Glory Milking Farm cameout and the term brunch daddy
was coined to describe BrunchDaddy.

(19:30):
And I'm like, total brunchdaddy.
That's perfect.
Let never, you know, let itnever be said that language is
not alive and fluctuatingseriously.
But that's actually part of, soyou guys were tragically forced
to witness when my vaginaexploded and my cl turned into a

(19:51):
rocket when I went and saw anose Atu.
And that is sexy to me, but itwasn't designed to be sexy
because, or lock'spossessiveness and obsession is
what makes him sexy.
Mm-hmm.
And that is
a big piece for me.
For something to besuccessfully, like my preferred

(20:14):
spice, like for it to hit like,you know, ghost chili for me,
I've gotta have that possessivepiece in it.
That possessive, obsessivepiece.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Like, that's part of the reasontoo, why I love Amanda Milo's
Rocky so much her, her, her sortof dragon species is because
they will literally emulate aperceived romantic rival.
Now am I saying I actually wantmy significant other to go out

(20:36):
and light the bus boy on fire?
'cause he smiled at me.
No, but the fact that he'sthinking about it might get him
in HJ later on.
Hmm.
Just say, look at that.

Amy (20:45):
Yeah.
I gotta say, yeah.
Mo Mart is definitely one of myghost pepper.
Yeah.
And I can totally see thatinterest in, in there just
because he, yeah.
Yeah.
Sanctuary of Kings was kind ofthat way too because maybe,
maybe it had also been just,just a while that I'd read the

(21:06):
other two.
Because I, I, I, I think Iwaited like a year or so before
I act, I finally read Sanctuarywith Kings.
Mm-hmm.
Why?
Why I waited.
I have no idea.
Maybe I just didn't want thestory to end.
Yeah.
It needed to marinate in yourTERA little bit.
Maybe.
Maybe I did.
Granted, I will, I will admitthis.
I will admit this.

(21:26):
My favorite of that, of thattrilogy still is book two
company aphis.
And not just because of Hunter,though.
He is definitely a very nicebonus'cause he's an or, but,
right.
Sounds like it.
The way, the way they set it upwith Ivania and and the, her,
her men basically.

(21:46):
Oh man.
It just, it, she was alsorecovering from so much trauma
that she had endured under thebig bad from the entire trilogy.
And basically she's a daughterof the, the goddess of hedonism.

(22:07):
Mm-hmm.
Oh, okay.
And so she, she is, she is ademi goddess.
I believe.
So.
Was

Stacy (22:12):
this like she.
Const because of thatconnection.
Like the idea, like she'll bethe
freakiest.
Yes.
Basically.
She's basically a succubus.

Amy (22:20):
Yeah.
She serves as a, as acornerstone, or you could say of
the house that Bia had prettymuch imprisoned her in for 200
years or so, and I'm just likebeing under that and the fact
that she did not know if shecould actually come to care
about anyone.

(22:42):
She had a lot of stuff to workthrough in such a short amount
of time with all four males thatare involved, which also
included a sleeping dragon knownas the king of dreams.
My God, that was also very hot.
That's a hot stuff going on inthere.
My goodness.
I'm even Catherine Moon.
I'm just saying I'm not gonnabutcher our dragon's name

(23:03):
because it is Welsh and I know Iwill mis pronounce it.
I wanna say it's Howell HowwellHoel.
How's it, how's it spelled?
Hoel?
Hoel.
But it's, it's like, it'sspelled Hewell, H-Y-W-E-L-L, but
I believe it's, I ain't touching
that
with
a 10 foot.

Stacy (23:22):
Yeah, it's John Tempe not here.
Tempe.
Well, she could tell us how topronounce it.
Hmm.
Because Howell and Howell'smoving Castle is Welsh, but it's
Howell, like we would spell itin in our world.
Yeah.
H-O-W-E-L-L.
WL in the, the book.

Amy (23:41):
She kind of, she kind of goes into the pronunciation in
the book itself, which I waskinda like, okay, try and stick
with that.
And sometimes I would have toflip back to them.
I'm like, okay, that's whatit's, man.
But, but anyway, anyways, I wasactually talking about this with
a friend who'd also read all ofthem.
This is my blogging friend.
Mm-hmm.
And she was thi she was sayingthat it was, the ending was kind

(24:02):
of, it kind of went off withouta bang.
But then I was, I was tellingher, well, maybe it really
wasn't about bha just, you know,being defeated.
It was about Ivania coming to,coming to realize that she was
somehow able to mostly overcomeher trauma, because that was a

(24:24):
lot of stuff that she went

Stacy (24:25):
through.
Right.
It sounds, it kind of soundslike the entire book was the big
bang and then there was no needfor a big bang at the end
because that was the entirestory.
I think so from the way you'redescribing

Amy (24:36):
it.
Mm-hmm.
And honestly, yeah.
Basically, but not everythinghas

Stacy (24:42):
to be, you know, explosions and lasers.
So, no, of course not.

Amy (24:47):
But it was, it was a really good ending.
I will say overall, this, thetrilogy, highly recommend it is
an average of four point,whatever.
'cause it's like, I gave fourstars to the first one and the
third one, and the, the, thesecond one, I, I think like
4.25, God bless you.
Story graph for letting me ableto give quarter stars, half

(25:09):
stars, three quarter stars andall that fun stuff.

Stacy (25:14):
I wish Amazon a little bit more.
Oh yeah.
Right.
Or it's just not quite to thatfull.
Like there are plenty of booksthat I would give a quarter star
to rather than a full star, so,oh yeah.
Yes.
You wanna give some nuance forsome stuff?
Mm-hmm.
Oh, something that I want to asky'all's opinion on, I have this

(25:34):
question down'cause I like, I'veactually been kind of curious.
I use these wordsinterchangeably.
Okay.
And I don't know if, and ifthere is actually like some sort
of like secret code out there.
What do y'all think is thedifference between s muddy,
steamy and spicy?
When do you one or the other?

(25:55):
I use'em interchangeably.
Steamy I would use as on the lighter end.

Amy (26:00):
Yeah.

Stacy (26:01):
Okay.
That's fair.
Steam.
But they're like, or, so it'd bemore along the, it would be more
akin to it's there's smoke, butthere's no fire.
Ah, yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
So steamy, I mean, granted, Iknow steam and smoke aren't the
same thing, but, you know, samekind of thinking of I guess like
tea.
Yeah.
Almost.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you're, you're you're notin a full boil yet.
Yeah.

(26:21):
That would, I can see that.
Honestly.
IS muddy and, and what was thethird one?
So was steamy Sy and Spicy.
Spicy.
Spicy and s mud orinterchangeable as far as I'm
concerned.

Amy (26:30):
Yeah, I think that's true too.
Like with steamy, it canactually go into the closed door
business if you ask me, because

Stacy (26:38):
Ooh,

Amy (26:38):
yeah, sure.
Yeah.

Stacy (26:39):
The that young adult series I was telling you guys
about a while ago, it's how toTrain Your Goblin King.
Ooh.
Is kind of that way wherethere's, there's, I don't think
anything really happens.
I don't even think that theytechnically have sex in the
book, if I remember correctly.
Mm.
But there again, there's a lotof that emotional edging and
then there's kissing at the endof it.
Yeah.
And, and I would say that thatwas steamy, but, but not

(27:01):
explicit basically.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I,

Amy (27:04):
yeah, I would put Bella, the Bella Donna Trilogy by
Adeline Grace.
There're definitely too, andthat one's definitely ya.
But I would also put the EmilyWild Series there as well,
because there is a level ofsteam in, at least in the first.
Yes, Emily Wild EncyclopediaFairies.
And then in Emily Wild's map ofthe other lands.
And now we're getting the thirdone, which might be the final

(27:26):
one.
I don't know for sure, but it'sEmily Wild and the compendium of
Lost Tails, which I'm stillwaiting for my copy to arrive
hopefully this week or this nextweek.

Stacy (27:36):
I had a copy of Good Fairy's, bad Fairies by Brian.
Proud that unfortunately didn'tmake it outta the fire.
No, and I got it.
I I autographed by him and hewalked really hard.
No, it's even worse.
I know.
I told him that I used it as adisciplinary measure with my
nieces and nephews.
And he goes, how do you mean?
I said, I hit him with it.
He says, that's exactly how Iwanted my book to be used.

(27:59):
Bless.
He was very nice.
He's also, we Tiny and Toby thebaby from Labyrinth is his son.
And made change when I bought myprint from him.
And he is also, we tiny, likethey're like five two max.
That's hilarious.
It was, I and my friend Cindyand I were g were giggling
afterwards'cause we're like, thebaby from Labyrinth just made

(28:21):
change from my fucking printfrom Brian Crowd.

Amy (2) (28:25):
So cute.
I love
that.
They were, they were

Stacy (28:27):
both very, very, very sweet.
As someone who's five three, Ilove a short king'cause.
Oh yeah.
I can actually look at'em in theeye.
It's nice, the vibe I get
as someone who's five nine, I just wanted to pet their
hair and tell'em how cute theywere.
Oh,
I should also be very upfront.
My father is a short king.
I did not appreciate growing up.

(28:48):
Like this is how confident heis.
In being short.
I did not realize that there islike a thing called like short
man syndrome or that a hundred

Amy (2) (28:56):
percent.
Mm-hmm.
Dudes
feel just uncomfortable.
Yes.
I had no damn clue.
Dudes feel uncomfortable beingshort because I was raised by my
dad.
Mm-hmm.
Who was always super confident.

Stacy (29:07):
Yeah.
But part of it too though, isyou're short.
Yeah.
People who were like Amy and Iheight who deal with assholes
like that, that's, yeah.
'cause they're, they're somehow,they somehow decided that
they're emasculated.
Yeah.
'cause I broke five nine.
Mm-hmm.
His opinion.
And so then it tries, they tryto turn it into a pissing
contest when you're just like,what the fuck is wrong with you?

Amy (29:28):
Yeah.
My thing was I would sometimesget crushes on some of my
classmates in, I in karate andthey were
all short me.
I remember they were, they asked me, they were in, they
were in high school.
I was 13, and they asked, orthey were like, I can't wait to
get my driver's license.
Don't you know Amy?
I'm like.

(29:48):
Few years?
No, because we're peers.
Yeah, because we

Stacy (29:51):
didn't realize that my lives No.
Like, I, I like being short doesnot have to be a deal breaker.
Like, did you guys ever seePlanet Terror and God Damnit,
what was the other one?
It was the Grindhouse yeah,duology.
That Robert Rodriguez and

Amy (30:05):
Yeah.

Stacy (30:06):
Quentin Tarran.
Tito did, it was Planet Terror.
Mm-hmm.
And what the, and I think theother one was just called, I
thought the other, I can'tremember.
Planet Terror is the one I'mtalking about.
Oh, whatever.
Well, the, the two together was,it was the Grindhouse double
feature, but each of them has,it has a, has a title.
I can't remember the name of, Ican't remember which one was
Planet Terror.
I think Planet Terror was RobertRodriguez's one.

(30:28):
And the actor did, did you guysever see that was she had the
machine gun leg?
Yes.
So the actor, but I am
intrigued.
Watch it.
It's so goddamn fun.
I cannot remember the name ofthe actor who plays Rose
Miguel's Love Interest in RobertRodriguez's.
Thing.
I wanna say it's his name's likeDavid Rodriguez or something,
and there's no relation, buthe's like five three.

(30:50):
And he is so goddamn hot in thatmovie that it's like, yeah, fuck
yeah.
I'd have fucked him and let himput a machine gun leg on my leg
when zombies ate my leg off.
Like legit.
He is so bad.
Damn hot in that movie.

Amy (31:01):
Ready?
Rodriguez.

Stacy (31:03):
Rodriguez.
That's it.
He is so fucking hot in thatmovie because he is all just
like swagger and dick.
That man is not intimidated byanybody.
And he makes these commentsabout, he says, I my first
shot's always a bullseye.
And then it becomes a euphemismfor why he knocked her up at the
end.
But he was so goddamn hot inthat.

(31:23):
And I am somebody who like, Ilike big burly fucking bruisers,
but if a guy is confident, itdoesn't fucking matter how tall
he's
there.
Is something about just havingthe straight up charisma, the, a
solid charisma role in life canget you so far.
Definitely.
Fucking sure.
There is nothing that's as muchof a turn on as confidence.

(31:44):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (31:46):
Just don't let it go overboard into arrogance,
please.
Yes.
Right.
Although I,

Stacy (31:50):
I will say, I'm still fucking weirded out that even
though I loved, I ended uploving the book Lizzie Strong's
deal with the Devil.
Really good.
Highly recommend.
I'm definitely buying it.
Mm-hmm.
I just don't know why she had tomake a point of saying he was
five foot seven at the beginningof it, and I was just like,
well, okay.
Because it never became a thingin the book.
It was never like people lookeddown on him for his size or

(32:10):
anything like that.
It was just like that was afact.
That's
fine.
It was her big lip alligator moment, I guess.
I guess like if she had justsaid nothing, it would've been
fine, but instead Yeah.
I'm, I'm weirded out by that.
Anyway, really good book though.
I recommend it.
Especially if you have like domsub leaning.

(32:30):
It's very hot.
There's collar play.
Two thumbs up.
Oh, another like, basic questionI definitely wanna ask'cause
we've been like playing aroundwith, with like the, making a
difference between romance anderotica.
Mm-hmm.
And I want to also talk abouty'all's thoughts on where, where

(32:51):
is that line in, in the smartworld between erotica and
romance.
And most importantly, I don'tthink some people realize that
there is a difference.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I would say for me thedifference erotica doesn't have
to have a happy ending.
However, that being said, if itdoesn't have a happy ending, I'm

(33:12):
not reading it.
Yeah,
same here.
Yeah, no, I concur.
Like
have a happily ever after and I don't care what dumb bitch
comes along and thinks thatthey're gonna reinvent romance
by saying romance doesn't haveto have a happy ending.
Yes, it does.
Sit down, shut the fuck up yourtime Or your, your people have
come and gone.
We weren't interested before.
We're not interested now.

(33:32):
Yeah.
It's like having a mystery andyou don't figure out who done
it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's just mysterious

Amy (33:41):
that, that ambiguous never Oh my gosh.
Especially from mysteries.
You cannot have an ambiguousending.
It don't work.

Stacy (33:49):
And that's, that defeats the fucking purpose of a
mystery.
Yeah.
If, if I, if I wanted it unru orif I wanted to be remain
frustrated, we would just callit a frustration.
Um, I should also add anotherthing that I think is a
differentiator between eroticaand romance for me is what is
the plot arching, archingtowards?

(34:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Is it arching towards a.
Is it arching towards like that,that love, is it Right, that
couple focus?
Mm-hmm.
It like the emotion because likethere's an emotional element
Yeah.
To it as much sex as there isgoing on.
Like that's not really acompelling story to be like the

(34:34):
fucked and happily ever after.
Right.
The thing I would think of is like most of the books
that I like, not all of them,but, but a good chunk of them
could probably be classified aserotica.
Mm-hmm.
They're romances, but they couldprobably also be classified as
erotica because there is veryexplicit on scene sex.

(34:54):
And, and there tends to be a lotof it.
Mm-hmm.
Like, not overwhelmingly, butlike, you're gonna get more
than, usually more than onescene.
You know, like that kind ofthing.
Oh yeah.
Not, obviously not all eroticais romance.
And I do feel like though, to bequalified as erotica and not
just porn, there has to be anemotional component of some
kind.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe that there's a romantic

(35:15):
component between the twoparticipants, but there has to
be some kind of characterdevelopment or death, some kind
of an emotional response.
From the reader to what you'rereading other than this makes me
horny.
I, I, I think that is actually,I think qualify
the erotica.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because otherwise we still haveto like, follow roughly the

(35:36):
whole Right.
Save the cat beats.
Yeah.
Basically.
Because, because pornography isonly there to Tate and I'm not,
I have no issue withpornography.
I'm a fan of pornography if I'min the right mood.
But pornography is only there toget you off.
Whereas Erotic Feather has tohave more of a, a, there has to
be more than just your bitsinvolved,

(35:56):
right?
Is that right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Where was, where did thischaracter start?
Where did they end?
Or what are they,
what are they striving towards?
Because like, you could doerotica, like say you, you have
a story where it's like, maybe,and I'm just pulling this
wholesale outta my ass.
Speaking of erotica, anyway itcould be a case of like, let's

(36:16):
say we have a woman who just gotout of an unsuccessful marriage
and she's been sexuallyunfulfilled in that marriage,
and so she decides to have a onenight stand, and the whole focus
of her having a one night standis to help herself feel sexual
again.
Like that could be the entirearc of the story.
We don't even need to know thename of the person that she
partners with.
And, you know, you go with herthrough her sexual interaction

(36:39):
and she successfully has anorgasm or whatever it is that
she's seeking out of this.
And then the story ends with herhappy and more confident because
she feels like she's reclaimed apart of herself.
Like that could a hundredpercent be an example of erotica
That I give a shit about her.
Definitely.
Yeah.
I give a shit about her, her,her sexual in in, in

(36:59):
interactions are an integralpart of the story, but it's
still a story with a beginning,a middle, and an end.
Whereas porn, it doesn't reallyhave to have a beginning, a
middle, and an end.
You just need enough stimulationto be titillated, achieve your
own orgasm, because nobody hasever started watching or reading
like pornography and been like,well, now I'm invested.
I've already come, but now Igotta see own

(37:22):
end.
Mm-hmm.
It's always like, alright, Icame like three times, I'm done.
You know?
Yeah.
We'll save this for anothertime.
Right.
If you need to, you can pick upwhere you left off, you missed
nothing.
Right.
Right.
If you feel like you're gonna goagain, maybe you leave it up in
your browser.
Like for me, my go-to for pornis eroica.
And so it would be, yeah.
Like, it could be like, I don'tleave this story up.

(37:42):
This is, this is pretty good.
You know, I maybe I'm gonnawanna go again in a couple hours
or maybe tomorrow, so we'll justleave this here.
It's right there.
Then I don't have to gosearching for it when I'm in the
mood again.
Mm-hmm.
Speaking with you guys, Jesus Christ.
I let my vibrator and MichaelZucker die.
I didn't charge them for likethree days and by the time I got
them charged, I was so.

(38:02):
God damn horny that I, I think Ialmost like devolved into like
my sexual ID and I was just likegonna run around and just start
grinding on anything that heldstill for long enough.
Like seriously.
I have been horned up before,but this was bad'cause I also
think I was ovulating.

(38:23):
Oh.
And so, oh yeah, no, likeanything that was vaguely valid.
It was like, hold still, thiswon't take long.

Amy (2) (38:32):
Oh, I'm sorry.
I was gonna say that sanctuaryof kings could definitely fall
into the erotica thing too, butOh, for sure.
For
sure.
I would call it erotica romance.
Yes.
Erotic romance.
Romantic.

Stacy (38:45):
Yeah.
Romantic erotica.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it honestly sounds like aLady of R's great manner would
really fall under the header oferotica too.
Easily.
Easily agreed.
Agreed.
Easily.
Like, yeah.
If you took away the sex fromany of those books, there would
not be much of a story.
Right.
Really just
there's still emotional investment in characters that,

(39:09):
and, and I don't say I, and Idon't make that statement being
like, it's all porn and no plotor be any plot.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like, you really do needthose sex scenes in order to
appreciate character developmentand platforms.
Hundred percent.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Well, that's
part of
the reason why edging is so successful.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Like if you weren't invested ina character, then you wouldn't

(39:31):
give a shit that they weregetting horn up.
Yeah.
And you were getting horned upwith them.
Mm-hmm.
One of the best examples ofpayoff that I can think of in
recent memory is Dr.
Darko, a surgeon of London, or,or rather a sorcerer in London,
which was that book I told youguys about.
I think I read it.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
In December, maybe, maybe.
I'm pretty sure it was December,I think it was Christmas ish

(39:51):
that I was reading that.
And that's like a, that's achunk book, like, it's like 600
pages.
And they, the woman who wroteit, this was her first novel.
I can't think of the author'sname off the top of my head, but
I a hundred percent, 10000%recommend that you get this book
because I read it on KU andimmediately bought it.
But the payoff is so fuckinggood because they don't fuck

(40:15):
until, like, they don't evenkiss until probably the last a
hundred pages of the book.
And the woman who wrote itactually has, I think her
master's and maybe her PhD inlike Victorian literature.
So she, and like she's, I wannasay she's a.
And not just Victorian, but like19th century literature because
I wanna say she has some kind oflaurels for knowing shit about

(40:36):
pride and prejudice.
And she a hundred percent wrotethis book in that language.
And then when they fuck theyfuck.
And it was really fucking funnytoo, because I was reading the
reviews.
'cause I, I was in this book andI was like, well, you know,
she's going for like adeliberately Victorian vibe.
Maybe she's just like, it's justgonna be like closed door or
implied or something like that.

(40:57):
Because Victorian she's goingfor the whole Yeah, well, but,
but, but they're also not sayinglike, he slammed his cock into
her on page.
Yeah, that's fair.
Yeah, that's
what I was thinking.
Maybe she was going for that.
But there was definitely likeshe did the slow burn, you
combust with them.
Oh wow.
Chef's Kiss, honest to god.

(41:17):
One of my favorite reads in, in,in probably the last 10 years.
But the funny part was, was'cause I was, I was skimming
some of the reviews when I was alittle bit more than halfway
through.
'cause I was wondering are theygonna have on page sex?
And I was seeing a lot of peoplewho were like, you know, there's
a little scheme.
It's not much I skimmed, youknow, I started skimming towards

(41:38):
the end and I was just like, allright, well you're an idiot
because this language isdelicious and I wanna roll in
it, but whatever.
And then I read it and then youget to the part where they smash
and it is on fucking pagesmashing.
It's really fucking funny.
'cause it's like, well, youstarted skimming in exactly the
wrong point then person, becausethen for the last a hundred
pages they fuck a lot.

(41:58):
But, but that's, you know,that's, that's, that could
almost be its own form oferotica, even though if you took
all of the sexual stuff out ofthe book.
It's this fascinating,compelling, like supernatural
mystery.
And there's even a couple ofpoints in it where I was reading
it and it genuinely scared theshit out of me.
'cause there's like a, there'sthis whole recurring thing where

(42:19):
there's these tunnels underLondon that the sorcerers use as
shortcuts to get around.
And there's this scene wherepeople are being hunted by this
ghost white entity through it.
And it was absolutely hairraising.
But but by the time they cometogether, like it was one of the
most like, erotic things that Ihad read because you were so
fucking invested in it.
And then when they finally didit, like it was that

(42:41):
conflagration, you know what Imean?
Where you went from nothing tolike full fucking bonfire
because this fire, you know,like, like the kindling for this
fire was laid so perfectly thatby the time the match was put to
it, that it had been smolderingand then it burst into flames.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Man, that sounds, it sounds likea very ideal, like slow burn.

(43:06):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Oh no, this is, this is, this isthe gold standard of slow burns.
Like sincerely
damn.
And
again, it's a chunky book, but it's.
But the whole book isn't justyou going, oh, for the love of
fuck, are they gonna smash?
Mm-hmm.
No, the whole time you're like,what do the fairies have to do
with it?
What about this?
What about that?
Oh my gosh, that's pretty good.
No, it's so good.
That is nice.
It's good.
She comes up with like, her ownsort of take on magic and like

(43:30):
the, the, the fair folk playinto it.
And the one of the antagonistsis a very scary representation
of the fa folk who are also,some of them are tied to hell.
And so, like, there's a wholething with that and it's, it's,
it's so goddamn good, you guys.
It's so fucking good.
Hey, this is one of the reasonswhy I do love it when like when

(43:50):
authors will combine likemonster romance, but then add in
more like thrilling bits.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Well this
one, this I, you could classify this as a monster
romance, but he is, or at leastoriginally was human, so she's
not getting with the fairy guy,the fairy guy's a bad guy.
Horse face, I believe is thedelightful insult that they come

(44:13):
up with for him through the, thecourse of the book horse face.
But the guy that she does end upwith is very much a human
monster, and he deliberatelymade himself that way.
So, but it's so, it's so, it'sso fascinating.
It's so fucking good.
Very heavy themes of like.
The underworld, sort of a Hadesand Persephone, except

(44:34):
Persephone goes looking for kindof her own undoing.
Mm.
It's not the the virgin snatched from the field of
wildflowers.
It's the woman searching.
I mean,'cause Elizabeth, themain character is she's after
revenge, basically.
Mm.
And it's, it's, and her rationale for seeking revenge is
completely like Ian andcompletely understandable.

(44:57):
Her dickhead husband getshimself killed by something
magical and his will is shittilywritten, and so she's left with
nothing.
Yeah.
Oh,
delightful.
And so she wants revenge on the,the assholes who blew up her
comfortable, if not romanticlife, basically.
Yeah.
You know, it's funny, like, soone of the questions I had are,

(45:18):
are there tropes that lendthemselves to more smut than
others?
And, you know, kind ofinterestingly like the, the slow
burn, it's actually, I'm overhere thinking like breeding kink
and size difference.
And I'm like, slow burn.
But yeah.
Where's the lie?
Yeah.
Where's the lie?

(45:38):
Yeah.
It's, it's, but again, becausehonestly what human sexuality is
so fluid.
That you really can't havestrict parameters on what is the
hottest thing you've ever read.
Yeah, yeah.
'cause if you're edge enoughthat by the time they finally
like, what?
I was like, like that, how totrain your goin king, like
there's no on-page sex, but bythe time they kiss you're like,

(45:59):
fucking yes.
Thank you.
Finally.
Or like either of you guys everread the Amelia Peabody
Mysteries?
No.
Oh, they're so, they're so fun.
I know of them.
I was, I was legit obsessed withthem about 20 years ago.
And they're just this greatmystery series and it's based
the woman who writes them as anactual Egyptologist.
And it's set, the first booksare set in like eight to 1880s.

(46:23):
And it's a young woman, AmeliaPeabody, whose father dies and
leaves her his fortune.
And so she decides that becauseshe's been the dutiful,
submissive, obedient daughter.
She's the spinster.
And she decides, fuck it, I'mgoing to Egypt.
And this is during that craze,you know, when Europeans became
fixated on Egypt and you know,they have like lu and wrapping
parties and, you know, find allkinds of ways to, to face

(46:46):
corpses.
And she goes to Egypt and sheends up meeting an Egyptologist
named Emerson, who's a completeasshole.
And they fall in love with eachother and eventually end up
getting married.
But the thing is, is whileillusions are made to them
having sex, there's never onpage sex with them.
So it's, it gets to the pointwhere it's, you're so invested

(47:07):
in this couple and you love themso much.
That when it implies thatthey're gonna smack because
it's, it's gonna be, there'sgonna be a, a paragraph break,
then they go to the nextchapter.
'cause again, there's never onpage facts, but those last like
three sentences before you getto that, you're just like, oh
yeah, that's good stuff.
Like, yeah.
Like it's that it really dependson like what you have going into

(47:29):
it, to what will trigger beingthe most, like arousing,
intoxicating aspects of it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah.
No, I'm just actually over herethinking of I was over here
thinking of the breeding kinkmost specifically.
Mm-hmm.
And like, I'm, I'm just overhere in my, my little A DHD mind
and being like, I can't get ridof this focus.

(47:53):
Like, oh, hey, I have
a huge breeding kink, so I'm down.
Oh, yeah.
But like, I, I'm thinking oflike, yeah, actually.
I'm thinking of moon moon bloodbreeding clinic csa.
Yeah.
C ssa.
Yeah.
And like, yeah, there isbreeding kink in there, but I'm
like, you know what?
That's actually not even the,the I most, I don't really think

(48:13):
that qualifies
as, as actual breeding kink.
Yes.
For me.
Yeah.
So you No, that's actually agood point.
Yeah.
It's not, I I'm like, and that'snot a, again, that's not, I love
c Kosta.
Yeah.
But that's, that's not a, shedoes not like the breeding
thing, I don't think is her bag,honestly.
No.
I'm trying to think of the, theMino tar book that I was telling
you guys about the, Oh, escapingthe friend zone.

(48:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
I've gotta read that one.
It's great.
Loved it.
I'm absolutely gonna buy it.
That is actually great becausea, they do a great job of sort
of explaining the emotional needbehind a daddy character.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not, it's not, so it's daddy don little girl,
but there's no age play, so youdon't have to worry about
anything weird about like that.
Right, right.
Like when I say I'm looking fora daddy, this is what I want.

(48:57):
Basically, like, this is atextbook example of it, but he
talks like, like he talks in theWesley, the, the, the Mita talks
in the book about how he'sambivalent towards being a
father, but the idea of knockingher up is like this huge turn
on.
And so like they do have abreeding kink, even though
they're actually takingprecautions so that she doesn't

(49:19):
actually get pregnant.
But like, you know, they talkabout, you know, he talks about
how he's gonna, you know, likeuse his fat bull, his, his daddy
Bullock to, you know, fuck ababy into her.
You know, like that kind ofstuff.
Mm-hmm.
Like that to me qualifies asbreeding kink.
Or I also really like whenthere's a breeding kink where
they think it's not possiblebetween the two characters.

(49:40):
Mm-hmm.
And then she ends up knocked up.
That, that's one of my fuckingfavorites.

Amy (49:44):
That is a fun one.
See, that's the funny thingthough, I think, okay, so I have
pregnancy aversion.
Y'all, y'all know this.
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and there's nothing wrongwith that.
That's someone who's been
pregnant.
I get it.
Actually, that is a hundred
percent viable.
But anyways the idea that, thatthe whole breeding kink doesn't
necessarily have to have the endresult of actually being bred

(50:08):
and impregnated.
That is actually a huge reliefto me because I, I, I actually
think of the meme.
Basically.
There's this character's like,it's like, breed me.
No pregnant, just breed.
I'm like, okay, I'm down withthis.
Yeah.
I have like, I'm down with thisbecause I don't want to get
pregnant, but I don't mind ifyou go at it to where it's, you

(50:31):
want me to, but we don't.
There we go.

Stacy (50:33):
Well, and, and I think I like, like everything else we're
talking about, I think thatthere is a sliding scale because
I think I'm at like the extremeend because I love the whole,
like, like I was talking earlierto you with ej, like I think
lactation play is super hot.
I think pregnancy, sex on inbooks can be super hot.
I love when and in fact in myown stuff that I'm writing,

(50:55):
pregnancy obsession is kind ofbuilt in because there's a whole
thing where it's like, in mystuff, it's like 90% of the
universe is male.
I won't go into it.
Because it's really goddamnboring to listen to somebody
else hijacking conversations,talk about their own shit.
I'll tell you off camera how Iknow anyway.
But I have like, I think I havelike the extreme end of it where
I find everything that has to dowith it super duper fucking hot.

(51:17):
There's a, a book by NancyCummings called the Warlord's
Baby in the Mod Felt series.
Mm-hmm.
Where I think one of the hottest sex scenes I've read is
her post delivery by, I, I thinka couple weeks, and maybe it's
just a couple of days.
And obviously she can't havepenetrative sex, but there's a
very sweet scene where heperforms oral on her very

(51:40):
carefully in the shower.
Hmm.
And, and
I would, I think that, that, that, and it's kind of his
way, like, he's like, like shefeels gross.
Like she's just had a baby.
Parts of her are still stitchedtogether, you know, and he makes
a point of like loving on her,like post pregnancy, bo a belly
and tells her how beautiful sheis and then performs oral on

(52:00):
her.
And it was this incredibly sexy,but also just incredibly
touching scene.
And it was a great way for thetwo characters to reconnect
because the whole.
Thrust of the book is Mercy isfeeling further and further and
further away from pacs, likehe's leaving her behind.
Mm-hmm.
And and so like, I find thatkind of thing hot, but I think

(52:21):
you can absolutely have abreeding kink where it's just
like the threat of, you know,I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know,
breathe my, my little submissivewhatever with my dominant daddy
dick.
Like, like that.
Or I'm gonna fuck you until youput a baby in me.
Like, if, if your personal kinkgoes the other way.
Or it could just be, maybeneither of you are dom sub and

(52:42):
maybe you're just like, turnedon by fluid.
I mean like, like think aboutFinley's books.
Yeah.
Like, like there's a lot offluid in that buckets.
So you can honestly tie thatinto of income or seed.
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Seed.
I mean, semen worship is athing.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, but I think, Ifeel like you could kind of like
maybe tie that a little bit intoit too.

(53:03):
Hmm.
So really I think breeding kinkas a term covers a much wider
sort of pasture than what we're,what maybe what we initially
think of out the gate.
Like, it doesn't have to end inpenis, goes in vagina.
Vagina, it ends up impregnated.
Right.
Am I making sense or am I justlike talking to myself in

(53:24):
circles?
No, no.
I'm,
I'm like sitting
and being like, this is all very good points if you
wanna see it actually.
An awesome, and at the time,completely, I think.
Known to the public at largeexample of a breeding kink.
They did it in scrubs.
Huh?
One of the characters gotpregnant.
I think it was when JD was with,I think it was when Elizabeth

(53:46):
Banks was on the show.
There was a whole thing whereshe had a pregnancy and then
lied and told him she miscarriedthe baby and then moved and had
the baby.
I don't remember what happenedfrom that,'cause I think I was
tuning out by that point, butthere is a recurring thing where
Elliot and her boyfriend she'stelling him to, to fuck a baby
into her.
And he's just like, but you toldme wear a condom.

(54:08):
She's like, yeah, we're acondom.
I don't actually want a baby.
I just wanna pretend.
And, and I, and the whole thinglike, like, that's like, it's
the, like the c story that RINsthrough the entire episode, but
it's very obvious from today'sperspective that Elliott had a
breeding kink.

Liz (54:24):
Wow.
The stuff I would've neverguessed.
Huh.
Holy shit.
Anyway, today I
learned there is breeding kink

Stacy (54:34):
in scrubs.
Yep.
I mean, I, I'm sure that thepeople of Scrubs when they wrote
it were just like, this would befunny.
They weren't like, let's sneakin a breeding kink.
You know what I Right, right.
Almost
certainly.
They were not like, this is forthe book Talk girl.
Right.
Exactly.
Not at all.
It's, it's didn't exist at that point.

Amy (54:52):
Right.
Well, honestly, remember MonsterRomance has been around for also
much longer than nowadays.
It's just a much more popularnow.
Yes.

Stacy (55:02):
The entire fucking thrust of the original UR of Crete
story is Monster fuckingRomance.
Except they gave it a downerending because I don't think
they realized they could give ita happy ending.

Amy (2) (55:14):
Yeah.
Because it was supposed to.
Well, that's why now we do giveit a happy

Stacy (55:17):
ending.
Yep, sure do.
Damn straight.
That specific miniature hasgotten a happy ending so many
fucking times that Oh
my gosh.
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I fucking support the hell out of it.

Amy (55:28):
I agree.
I am so with you.
Now, Stacy, you had also broughtup in the Mod Fell book how
basically she couldn't havepenetrated sex.
That actually brought to mindone of my other favorite books,
and I have read it twice.
I've absolutely loved it.
I will continue to reread itbecause it is a comfort read.
And that is Barry and Greed byLily Maine, and probably one of
the few books by heard that I,that I was reading.

(55:50):
Yeah, I remember you.

Stacy (55:51):
That really like, like resonated with you.

Amy (55:54):
Yes, it did.
Because I mean, it's basicallydarl ha for, for the, for the
listeners, Darryl has vaginismusin which she cannot have
penetrative sex.
Right.
Vagina ultimately hurt her.
Yeah.
And greed, who is, I forget whatthey are, but they're, they're

(56:14):
pretty much underworld, demontype character.
Yeah.
He's like a demon.
Yeah.
But they're, he's, he's verysweet and he is very
understanding and he's willingto work with her and find out
how he is able to please her.
But it's just, it's so hilarioushow their relationship started.

Stacy (56:31):
Isn't he?
Isn't he like an, like anincubus or something?
Some,
some,
I thought there was a sexual component, but maybe not.
Maybe I'm misremembering.

Amy (56:40):
Well, no, no.
The sexual component isbasically, she's from a cult
compound where they worship themas se as sex.
Oh, that's what it is.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he is completely weirded outby that shit.
So he picked, picked, he pickedthe one, the one cult member
would not have viewed him assuch.
Yes.

(57:00):
A weird, but the way they goabout it, the way they go about
their intimate moments is just,just watching their friendship
go from, you know, roommates tofriends and then to ultimately
lovers and oh my gosh, it's justso

Amy (2) (57:16):
good.
It's such a good story.

Stacy (57:18):
Well, and that's something that's so sweet too.
Like that's why friends tolovers, if it's done right, can
be absolutely.
Like, just make your heart feellike it's gonna explode in your
chest.
Mm-hmm.
Because you're so root for thesepeople.
Yeah.
And then when they finally like,start to, to like put two and
two together.
Yes.

Amy (57:37):
I love.
That's such good.
I will always highly recommendthat one.
I still haven't read shots onBarbs yet, but I have heard good
things.

Stacy (57:47):
Is that in the same series?

Amy (57:48):
Yes.
It actually features Greed's BigBrother Uni.
Oh, okay.

Stacy (57:52):
Super cool.
I don't think I read anything

Amy (57:55):
though in first book, so I'm kind of like e So

Stacy (57:58):
we might be kind of

Amy (57:59):
the alpha hole maybe.

Stacy (58:00):
Yeah.
Milana Jackson is really theonly person who could land the
Alpha hole well, for me, as faras I'm concerned.
Mm-hmm.
And Loki Renard.
But I also think both of themare potentially insane, and I
mean that in all the best wayspossible.

Amy (58:16):
Mm-hmm.

Stacy (58:16):
Because I fucking love their books.

Amy (58:18):
Yeah.
That act.
Okay.
So various and greed actuallymade me think, I finally read my
first Regina Bay book.
I told you guys Oh, yeah, yeah,yeah.
I read, I married E Van.
Mm-hmm.
Loved name

Stacy (58:30):
is Abe.

Amy (58:32):
I have no idea.
That's, I, I thought that that'swas how y'all pronounced it.

Stacy (58:37):
I just call her Regina Bell, but I, now that you
mentioned it, I thought I, shemight, is she French Canadian?
She is Canadian,

Amy (58:43):
but I don't know if she's French Canadian.
Regina Bell, she's bilingual,

Stacy (58:47):
so she, I think she, if it's who I'm thinking of, she is
French Canadian.
I don't know how she pronouncesher last name though.

Amy (58:52):
I also know she's coming to the Monster erotica book
calling.
Yes, I know.
That's one of the main reasonswhy I wanted to read more of
her.
I gotta send, I wanted to readher stuff too.
Money to, so I'm gonna try

Stacy (59:03):
next month, Amy, to get that money to you so you can get
the omnibus for me.
I'm so I'll definitely,

Amy (59:10):
I wanna get it for myself too.
But anyways though, because ofhow this one is set up, it's
basically set up as strangers,you know, joining.
Yeah.
It's like an arranged, it's anarranged marriage basically.
It's an arranged marriage.
And to see it in the monsterromance world is fascinating.

Stacy (59:29):
Yeah.

Amy (59:29):
cause there's, I love that differences between humans and
whatever their monster slushie.
I love,

Stacy (59:36):
I love in the, the wedding scene where like, she's
supposed to be naked and she'slike, I can't do that.
So she wears the flesh coloredbody suit.
I thought that was great.

Amy (59:45):
Yes.
Well, she did the research.
He didn't get the chance to forall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a doll though.
Oh my God.

Stacy (59:51):
Yeah.
Alex is an absolute love.
And I love his sister too.

Amy (59:54):
Yes.
She was adorable.
I, I love, I just love, I lovepeople.

Stacy (59:58):
Love

Amy (59:58):
all of

Stacy (59:58):
them.
Were great.
And I can't

Amy (01:00:00):
wait to read the next

Amy (2) (01:00:01):
one.

Stacy (01:00:01):
I think you'll really is the second one I married in nga.
Yes.
You'll love it.
That one's really fucking good.
She also does excellentepilogues.
I love her Epilogues.
Her epilogues give you likeeverything that you wanted from
those characters.

Amy (01:00:15):
I cannot wait.
I cannot wait.
It's gonna be so much.
Yeah.
I married to Naga is excellent.

Stacy (01:00:19):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (01:00:20):
What I really love about her Naga is that he looks like
a, a snake.

Stacy (01:00:24):
Yes.
He looks like a snake.
He looks like a snake.
She did a, she did a really coolthing too with it where,'cause
they all have hoods.
Mm-hmm.
But the hood can, the hood isonly extended if they're like
agitated, otherwise it drapeslike hair, which I thought was
kind of a cool touch.
That is neat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's kind of the same thing thatI mean, not the same thing, but
in a, in a similar vein as whatAlexis B.

(01:00:45):
Osborne did in my porn star ormade for the alien porn star,
where they're his, I shouldn'tsay his, because they're
non-binary.
Their species is, they're ixiopioids.
So they're fish based.
Yes.
And so they don't have hair, butthey do have a fin on their head
and the fin drapes to one side.
So they look like they've gotthis like, super cool, sexy
undercut.

Amy (01:01:04):
Nice.
I fucking love that book.
I need to reread it.
Oh my goodness.
So what,
so one segment, I do want to besure that we bring into this
discussion,'cause I think itwould round it out really nicely
mm-hmm.
Is to talk about smut shaming.

Stacy (01:01:26):
Oh
yes.
Here we go.
Oh yeah, they did.
So first of all, I would justlike to say it as somebody
who's, sorry, lemme climb up onmy fucking soapbox here.
As somebody who's been readingromance novel, literally since
the eighties, I started way toogoddamn damn young.
Going to high school, trying toread a romance novel meant that

(01:01:49):
you always had a piece of foldedpaper with you that you held
over the cover.
So nobody gave you a fuckinghard time because there was
always a clinch on the cover.
You might get lucky and have astep back cover, but usually the
clinch was on, like if it was aJoanna Lindsay, it was on the
fucking front cover and thenumber of times, and it was

(01:02:13):
always high school boys, highschool girls were like, I got
you.
'cause I'm probably doing thesame thing.
The number of high school boyswho tried to come over and like
poke fun at me or sear at mebecause I was reading a fucking
romance novel.
Just makes me to this day.
I wanna go back into my fuckingsenior year algebra, tri class

(01:02:38):
and Rage flip that desk that Iwas sitting in because fucking
Brian from eight rows over hadto come over and see what I was
quietly reading by myself beforeschools before class started and
make fun of me for it.
So smut shaming is nothing new.
And we're going to get throughwhat the dip shits are trying to

(01:02:58):
pull now.
Just like we got through the dipshits back then.
Thank you for coming to my Tedtalk.
Same dip shits different shit.
Oh yeah,
same dip shits different location.
I, yeah, it, I, I think it'slike ultimately I, I view it as,

(01:03:18):
I, I think a lot of people feeluncomfortable with a, because,
because, let's, let's be frank,like there, there are some'cause
of puritans
tell the truth and shame the devil.
Some goddamn puritans stillfucking up everybody's party 300
years later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There, it, it's, there's apuritan aspect I think to

(01:03:38):
American culture.
There's, yep.
And like, man, there is nothingmakes a small man feel more
intimidated than women.
Taking control of their ownsexuality.
Oh, fuck yes.
Mm-hmm.

(01:03:59):
In any, any aspect, this is justone tiny way that they're like,
Nope.
Can't have that.
Nope.
Well, if you look, look at itthrough the lens of history,
like, so much of history hasbeen about controlling women's
sexuality.
Like always the church tried tocontrol women's sexuality.

(01:04:20):
The idea of chivalric love wascontrolling women's sexuality
because that was supposed to benonsexual and purely romantic.
Pre Christianity coming in andsmothering the joy out of
everyone.
The fucking Greeks and Romansdid it too, where women were
either licentious, half-formedmen who couldn't control their

(01:04:41):
sexuality.
And let's not forget the oldroaming uterus thing.
And that true love was onlybetween two dudes because you
couldn't get pregnant from it.
Sure.
Okay.
Why not?
And like, just on and on and onand on through history today,
we're still battling the goddamnMadonna whore syndrome and so
many fucking people.

(01:05:01):
And I'm over it.
I'm fucking over it.
Leave me alone to read myfucking smut and peace.
I ain't reading it out loud toyou, but if you keep fucking
pushing it, I'm gonna, and thenyou'll have a reason to bitch.
God, I love you, Stacy.
Yeah, me too.
Thank you.
I love you too.

(01:05:22):
Oh, thank you for listening tome, bitch.
I, I, I, I, I'm just really, Iam appreciative of your Valkyrie
cry over there.
Mm-hmm.
I'm
just
tired of mind, don't you?
Goddamn, damn business.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That's the boil down.
That is the boil down toeverything that makes me angry
is mind your goddamn business.

Amy (01:05:38):
Yes.
I mean, you're not okay.
Me reading my, my romance novel,my, my smut novel or whatever is
not hurting you.
Exactly.
Why are you trying to make outthat?
It is?
Because it is not

Stacy (01:05:52):
clearly, it's the same shit.
It's just me.
Yes.
When people were melting downbecause gay marriage was
legalized, because, you know, wehave to be up in, in, in the
business of two people livingtheir own fucking lives in their
own fucking homes.
It was this, somebody used the,the, the perfect euphemism,
which was the idea of you goinginto subway and getting what you
wanted on your sandwich, and theguy behind you yelling at you

(01:06:14):
that you weren't allowed to doit because he doesn't like it.
Yeah.
It's the same fucking shit with romance novels.
And part of it too is, again,it's that whole idea of if it's
for women, it has to be secondclass citizen, because, I mean,
think about how roundly mockedromance has been as a genre,
essentially.
Essentially from its inception.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
That's not When are you gonna read a real book?

(01:06:35):
When are you gonna write a realbook?
Mm-hmm.
My friend Cindy is a, so myfriend Cindy Diamond is her
writing name.
I hundred percent recommendeverybody read her shit because
it's so goddamn good.
She's also Amy.
I think you would love her.
She's very consent heavy.
Mm-hmm.
But she has had so many fuckingpeople ask her, well, when are
you gonna write a real book?
Well, I don't know, bitch, thesehave pages and it, it hurt if I

(01:06:57):
hit you upside the head with it,so I'm gonna go out.
Actually,

Amy (01:07:01):
it's like, please.

Stacy (01:07:03):
Oh, it's not a real book.
How real is it now?
Exactly.
No, you can't press charges.
It's not a real book, he said.
So
yeah, I'm thinking of this oneinfluencer I follow.
I think a lot of people doromantically inclined, she does
a lot of reels.
Mm-hmm.
On Instagram.
She might be on on TikTok, but Idon't, I think's on

Amy (01:07:22):
the server, isn't she?
I think.
I think so.
She's a fan of Thin.
I think I follow her onInstagram.

Stacy (01:07:27):
I'm pretty sure I do.
I definitely follow her onInstagram.
And I think one of thecreepiest, weirdest critiques
that she gets as a romancereader is, was your husband.
Think of this.
Oh,
yeah.
Or you get the rando strangerwho's like, I'll show you what
real sex is like.
No thanks.
I can be disappointed on my own.

(01:07:48):
Right.
I think, well, I just think it'sabsolutely fascinating whenever
people bring in your spouse toit.
Yeah, yeah.
When you're a woman, andespecially in, they're assuming
that your spouse is a man.
Yeah.
Because it's very much like,
oh, I'm just looking.
You must be sexually unfulfilledbecause you're reading this,
right?
Mm-hmm.

(01:08:09):
And yeah.
You know, you're, you clearlydon't care about your husband.
I'm over here.
Like, he never asked you topolice me.
Right.
Well, and the other thing too isdudes who are secure themselves,
no, no buyer the book.
'cause she's gonna fuck yourbrains out after she
finishes up.
Actually, yes, this is actuallytrue.
True.
Is
this is in your best interest.
Yeah,

(01:08:29):
yeah.
No,
Well, and Cindy made the point years ago, years before
she became a published writer,that she was so happy when she
finally got a Kindle because shecould quietly read her romance
novel.
At the time, she was working areceptionist job for a museum in
La Jolla, and she could quietlyread her romance novel and her
downtime without sun creepcoming over and seeing it as

(01:08:50):
like an excuse to Lear at herbecause she's reading a romance
novel.
Ergo she must just want sometotal gross fucking 70-year-old
yuppie to come and try and grindup on her hip because she's
reading a romance novel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I could see that.
It's so weird.
Oh yeah.
Just like the comments peoplewould like, like, you know, like

(01:09:12):
as a, a teenager, like reading aromance novel, like waiting for
my bus stop, like just thecomments.
People would like random fuckingstrangers, like adult fucking
men would say to like a15-year-old girl quietly waiting
for her bus to come pick her up.
Like the shit they would say isvile.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
And it's, I think it, it tiesinto that whole, like, there's

(01:09:34):
this wave like very frighteningwave of like entitled assholes,
you know, the, the same ones whodid the whole, your body My
choice bullshit.
Yeah.
Online until he got his assdocked, which is still the
funniest fucking thing I've everseen.
Mm-hmm.
But it's, it's that same shitwhere women can't own their
sexuality because theirsexuality only belongs to men.
You know, it's, it's the samething.

(01:09:54):
It, it's the same reason why I'mso critical of the male gaze and
shit that isn't malespecifically aims.
Like, I'm not interested in,like, for example, and this is
the dumbest example, but I'mstill gonna give it because it
just fucking sets my tits off,is like I'm playing my, my, my,
my fucking animal restaurantgame right on my phone.

(01:10:14):
And it's literally a game whereit is a restaurant run by
animals.
That's it.
It's cute, it's adorable.
You can do little, little queststo help gmy the cat chef run the
best restaurant that he can do.
Right.
And you have little, littlegoals that you have to meet.
And a lot of it is, Hey, youknow, here, here's your coins
that you earned for the day, butif you watch this ad, we'll

(01:10:37):
double it.
Right?
So then you're subjected to, Godonly knows whatever bullshit
comes up in their string.
And one of them is, and it, it'scalled like AKA Slow Life or
something like that.
And I have seen.
Footage of this like demon wife,demon ish demon s demon
adjacent, zipping up the zipperover her butt crack so many

(01:10:58):
fucking times.
And it's like, that is enough totell me this game is not for me.

Amy (01:11:04):
Yeah.

Stacy (01:11:05):
Because that is so goddamn male gaze that it could
be the fucking picture of it inthe dictionary.
And I'm not saying that youcan't have sexy stuff, like
honestly, she's very sexylooking.
I would love a pair of thosepants just to wear around the
house, but I don't, I don'twanna play a game where the
comfort of the character isn'ttaken into consideration.

(01:11:29):
Because if we put her in thisuncomfortable act outfit, it'll
make the boys who play this getget a boner.
Yeah.
And that whole thing ties intothe whole thing where, but, but
now it's not just a game, it'sassholes trying to do it to
women in real life.
Mm-hmm.
And a dog will not fucking hunt Monsignor.
Yes, yes.

Amy (01:11:48):
Yeah.
Actually, you bring up a goodpoint, Stacy.
There's that's something that I,I try to pay attention to.
I used to not be quite so choosylike with my anime that I would
watch, though there are someanime that I'm like.
I've tried to watch it now, andI'm like, oh hell no.
Why?
I fucking watched that the firsttime.

(01:12:08):
Right.
Who was I when I watched this?
Seriously?
Who was I?
But anyways, but nowadays it'sactually nice because you get
the the cover of, of what theanime focuses.
And I look at the ratio.
And the ratio is if there's nota good balance between male and

(01:12:28):
female characters mm-hmm.
It's most likely not for me.

Stacy (01:12:32):
Hugely.
Hugely.
Well, and even like,'cause Idon't wanna be take to be taken
as I'm saying.
Like, when could only wearburlap acts, you know what I
mean?
Like, my favorite at all time isthe Slay.
Right.
No, I get that.
And Naga, the, the Lena'ssidekick before she meets
gallery is a walking cheesecakemodel.

(01:12:56):
Yes.
And it's fucking hilarious.
It's great.
Like you can hear Naga comingbecause her ts go boying, bling
boying as she's walking.
Like, it's great.
It's a really funny, and Nagahas a personality though,
outside of her mad Max Bikinithat she's wearing.
Yes.
And so I don't have issue withsexuality or even, Hey, I'm
dressing sexual because I likethe attention from whatever

(01:13:17):
gender it is that I'm attemptingto attract in this encounter.
I just don't like it when it's.
The idea is, is that the onlygaze that matters is the male
gaze and fuck what anybody elsethinks or what anybody else is
into.

Amy (01:13:31):
Correct.
But the thing with that, I canget with that.
Yeah.
The thing of for me though, is the ones that they, when I'm
looking at the ratio, I'm alsolooking at who the main
character is.
Right.
The main is a male and I see himsurrounded by women.
I'm like, ah, obviously this isintended for the male gazes.
It is not.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
Whereas slayers, because it'sfocusing on Lena as the main

(01:13:52):
character.
Right.
And you've got Amelia, it'sbeing put as more for both
gazes.
It's

Stacy (01:13:58):
Boths.
Mm-hmm.
And the romance when it happensis sporadic, but very sweet.
It's another one of those whereyou have to, you have to look
for the undercurrent to find theromance and slay.
Yes.
And so when you find it, you'rejust like, oh, that's, that's,
that's good stuff.
Mm-hmm.
That's good stuff.

Amy (01:14:13):
Yes.
And there's nothing wrong withit.
I'm like, if you like that, ifthat's your thing, go for it.
But sure.
I'm not saying don't watch it.

Stacy (01:14:20):
Right.
I'm not saying burn love heatedto the ground, but at the same
time, like address it for whatit is.
Yes.
We made this because we wantteenage boys to watch it.
Okay.
No shame in that man.
That is a viable fuckingdemographic.
But don't make something andthen claim it's for the female
gaze when it very clearly is notcorrect.
Or make it something like that.

(01:14:42):
When fucking My Little Ponyfriendship is magic came out and
it was this adorable thing andall these little kids were
having a good time watching it.
And then a bunch of gross maleperverts.
Mm.
Decided to fucking ruin it forlittle kids anyway.
But it, it's just the, it has tobe male gaze or it's crap is
what mm-hmm.

(01:15:03):
Just mm-hmm.
Just turns me and just afrothing.
Goddamn.
Like, I wanna bite my ownshoulder because I'm so fucking
angry.
Yeah.
And it's the closest thing athand that I can get my teeth
into.

Amy (01:15:13):
To that, to that.
I do have a fun fact.
The first actual novel composedwas by a woman.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course, it was The Tale ofGenji.
Mm-hmm.

Stacy (01:15:26):
Of course it was, it was a long fucking book too.
It's Tale Genji is reallyfucking long.
I, if, if I were stuck in, inthe Japanese court as a, as an
overly educated woman withpretty much nothing to do, I too
might write a long ass book.
Yeah.
Blame,
don't blame
her.

(01:15:46):
I think I would just become an epic poisoner and just
start killing people for fun,quite frankly.
Find other ways to
Stacy,
Hey, look, if you're gonna fucking fence me in, then
you get to deal with the endresult, It ain't the hurricane's
fault.
Then it trashes the city.
You know what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And actually on a similar note,so like the opposite of smut

(01:16:09):
and, you know, dirty or spicy orsteamy romance.
Mm-hmm.
Would be clean romance.
It's not, I hate that term.
Closed door.
Yeah.
It's a weird term bucket.
It's a weird term.

Amy (01:16:22):
It's a very weird term, but it unfortunately it is being
applied and even in the libraryworld.
Mm-hmm.
It's just how it is.
I have, I refuse to use it.
We have had some, some patronsthat have asked for clean teen
romance.
It's like, most of it is

Stacy (01:16:40):
right.
Lemme show you our vastcollection, much on the page.
And you shouldn show see much onthe page, right?
Our vast collection of JanetOakley, Puritan Romance.
Here's your Amish romance.
Go to town.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That I I am more of a closeddoor phrase fan personally.

(01:17:00):
Yeah.
I refuse
to use clean because it implies there's so wrong, wrong
with onscreen.
Yeah.
Also, if you're gonna write closed door romance,
fucking warn me if I getinvested and then the, they're
just about to bang and the doorcloses, bitch, I will.
DNF So goddamn fast.

Amy (2) (01:17:17):
I think bio

Stacy (01:17:17):
has said the same thing.
Oh, like, have you warned me?
I'm fine with it.
I can go in like, I, not everystory has to have graphics sex
in it.
It should, but I understand thatnot every story needs it.
I, that would be kind of ahilarious content warning.
I mean, content warning
closed door.
I think there should be, let'sbe honest, little women would've

(01:17:39):
been way more fun with on pagesex anyway.
Don't mind closed dorm.
Like, again, like what I wassaying before, that just makes
you more fearful for the littlesnippets of it that you get.
I still maintain, one of themost romantic things I ever read
was in fucking WeatheringHeights.
When Keith Cliff talks about howhe bribed the sex stint to open

(01:18:00):
the side of Kathy's casket.
So that when he was buried nextto her, they would decay into
each other.
I still maintain that.
And, and I mean, and that isvery much like, that's, that's
it.
That's as graphic on page as youget.
I don't even think they kiss inweathering heights.
No.
So it doesn't ha You don't haveto have fun.
They just angrily long at eachother.

(01:18:21):
The mo biggest, the two biggestassholes in Yorkshire found each
other, or was it Cornwall?
I can't remember if it'sYorkshire.
I think it's Yorkshire, isn'tit?
Yeah, it's Yorkshire,
because Yeah.
Yeah.
You gotta go up into theMoorlands and Yeah.
The two most a like, like just the two biggest douche
bags, it should have gottenmarried and just screamed at

(01:18:42):
each other in their own housefor the rest of their life.
Instead decided to blow up thespot of every person that they
even peripherally Encount had anencounter with.
But, but part of the appeal ofthat is Heath, cliff and Kathy
are terrible.
They have no redeemingqualities.
I honestly, I think Kathy'sworse than Heath Cliff.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
But no, she is the worst.

(01:19:03):
Yes.
But Heath, most of withering
heights, I kept on thinking,Heath Cliff, you dumb ass.
Yeah, totally.
But
his longing for her after she dies is genuine.
Mm-hmm.
And you can fucking feel it whenyou're reading it.
And that I think is, is honestlywhat makes the book so
compelling.
And, and like you, you, eventhough he's a fucking monster

(01:19:25):
and he admits he's a monster andhe made the deliberate choice to
become a monster, you still achefor him as he aches for her like
a hundred percent.
That's why I really recommend,if you ever wanna read what's
essentially weathering heightswith a happy, happy ending and
without Kathy being a bitch,there's a book called Upon a
Moon Narc More by RebeccaBranwin that was written in the

(01:19:46):
eighties.
I think it's way out of printnow, but you can get a copy of
the book for like pennies andit's essentially Weathering
Heights, fanfic, but with aHappily Ever after.
And it, Maggie, the maincharacter is nowhere near the
bitch that Catherine is, butit's but Draco, the main male
character is fucking Heath Cliffto the nth degree, except he's

(01:20:09):
actually their cousin.
'cause you know, there's thatwhole, that's something we could
talk about too, actually, isthat streak of incest that shows
up in a lot of, especiallyeighties romance where his
cousins marrying each other.
Oh yeah.
It was too fair.
It was, it was legal at thetime.
Like they're not doing anythingthat wouldn't have been done in
the timeframe.
But I think because so many ofus grew up with it, that we've
kind of normalized it in ourheads.

(01:20:29):
But then you read Romance noveland you're like, well, yeah, of
course.
Like he's the hot cousin andshe's the hot cousin, and like,
yeah, like Family Dynasty, blah,blah, blah.
I, I appreciate how we startedwith, with a question on clean
romance and now we are Yeah,
yeah.
Talking about cousin fucking,although, you know because I
think, can't you technicallymarry your first cousin in the

(01:20:52):
us?
Like I think some
states that required to have
like genetic counseling or something like that?
No, but as long as you're notplanning to reproduce, I think
it's legal or if you're going toreproduce, it's like with
careful genetic considerationtaking any hand.
Oh
my gosh.
But
why
would

Amy (01:21:09):
you, yeah, I know, but I don't care how hot your cousin
is.
It's your cousin.

Stacy (01:21:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
I know we still have to, we weneed to talk about tropes, which
is a, a spoiler alert, everyone.
That's our, that's our nextepisode.
Yay.
We're gonna trope it up.
Did you, did, did you, like I ifyou were like, man, we, I wish
you could have talked more aboutbreeding kinks or size

(01:21:35):
difference.
Guess what?
I'm down for it.
What?
Bitches.
Yeah.
Keep listening.
We keep listening.
So I, I'm gonna say more
disturbing, upsetting things in your ears in the next
episode too.
We, yeah, we do batch recordingsof this stuff.
So there's your spoiler alert.
In the meantime, for those whoare listening to this tell us,

(01:21:56):
tell us your thoughts.
What, what is smut to you?
What, Yeah.
Are your weird content warningsthat you wouldn't think are
content warnings and yeah, theyreally should be.
Yes.
You can go to our website talesfrom the orden.com.
Mm-hmm.
Really, really creative there.
You can find me on MonsterRomance reviews on Instagram and

(01:22:20):
Substack.
And yeah let us know what youthink and oh, please, please.
Like, like Review star, letother people know that we exist.
Yeah.

Amy (01:22:31):
Oh, we will.
If you I will.
I I just wanted to plug, there'sa couple of episodes definitely
related to this that it's likeyou might wanna, you know, have
a listen the great book, panicand Honor Thy Bookish Limits.
Yes, please have a look atthose.
Have a listen to those episodesbecause we went into a lot of
information there and it'sdefinitely relative to now,

(01:22:53):
right.
And more so to what's going onin the world, right?
Yeah.

Stacy (01:22:55):
The political scope that we're currently battling at the
moment, roughly one year later.
I'm just gonna say it, I'm justgonna say it out loud.
You can have my fucking on pagesm when you pry it from my cold
dead hands, motherfucker.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amy (01:23:09):
I'm right there with you, Stacy.
Well, cheers dear readers.
Embrace the DNF.

Stacy (01:23:18):
There
you go.
Let go of
fomo.
Let go of fomo.
And
life is too short to read Shi.

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