February 27, 2021 • 27 mins
Responding to requests from several listeners, Christine and JJ take a look at flags from around the world and describe their symbols, colours, meanings, and histories. Can a simple design inspire patriotism and pride? How literal are the symbols? And can there ever be too many Welsh dragons?!
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Episode Transcript
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JJ Hunt (00:04):
Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashtag in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
We had an email request from David recently, and
other listeners have requestedthis too, to talk about flags.
And, of course, as blind people,we all know that flags are
multifaceted and they havedifferent things that they
represent. And for the mostpart, maybe we don't know all
(01:07):
that much about them. Well,okay, I'm speaking for myself
there. But when we startedtalking about it, it turned out
to be a lot more complex than Ihad had thought and who has
flags and and why and what theyactually represent. So, JJ,
maybe that's a good place tostart is what's the purpose of
flags? And why do they exist?
JJ Hunt (01:28):
Yeah it's really interesting. I mean, from a
design perspective, how do youconvey a sense of place a sense
of people identity, using afairly standardized set of
design principles and commonlyunderstood symbols? It's, it is
really quite fascinating. Rightoff the top? Which flags are we
(01:49):
going to be talking about whichflags that we're going to
describe? I mean, there are 200,almost 200 countries in the
world. Plus there are states andprovinces. And then there are
rallying flags for groupsseeking independence there at
all, a lot of different flagsout there. We talked about this,
Chris, obviously, we are anEnglish language podcasts so our
(02:10):
listeners are Canadian,American. They're from the UK.
They're from Australia. So we'regoing to talk a bit about those
flags. Because those are theflags of our listeners, but also
because those flags work welltogether. Because they're from
countries that share a commonhistory, common colors, common
(02:32):
symbols, common design elements,right? It's important to
acknowledge though, when we'retalking about those common
histories, that the commonhistory that those countries
share is colonialism. Theseflags are intentionally designed
to inspire nationalistic pridefor some people, but they can
also be symbols of oppression,too. So obviously, that's
(02:55):
getting into territory that'sbeyond the scope of this
podcast, but I did still, youknow, I did want to acknowledge
that.
Christine Malec (03:01):
And when we talked about it before, the
topic came up of are there flagsfor indigenous peoples? And it
JJ, you did a quick internetsearch. And apart from the
images, one of the things Ithought was most interesting is
that there are and they arequite recent, it's a very recent
phenomenon to have like, sothere's lots of reasons for
(03:24):
that. But that fact reallyhighlighted for me that it's
it's a lot more complex aspatriotism is much more complex
than you might think on thesurface.
JJ Hunt (03:34):
Yeah for sure. I mean, the use of flags has been around
for centuries, like I read thatit goes back as perhaps as far
as the Bronze Age that peoplehave been using flags,
particularly in militarysituations, flags were used as
military standards duringbattle, both on land and then
later at sea, you would haveflags to identify your group of
(04:00):
people. And so these flags aredesigned to be viewed from a
distance. They're designed toinspire and identify your
troops, and maybe evenintimidate your enemies. And so
these flags, they includeheraldry symbolism color
Association, and some of thesemight go back hundreds and
(04:22):
hundreds and hundreds of years.
So really quite fascinating. Alittle bit of technical
information. Before I go on withthe descriptions, that flags are
typically house flags that wesee in North America are
typically like three feet tallby five feet wide. So they
follow a three to five ratio,some follow a one to two ratio,
(04:44):
so they would be maybe two feettall and four feet wide. Roughly
speaking, that's more or lesslike a cell phone in landscape
mode, right? That's kind of whatwe're talking about for flag
dimensions. And I'm often goingto be describing To right and
left when I'm describing theflags, because that's how flags
are represented in drawings andphotos and illustrations. They
(05:06):
have a visual right and left.
But in fact, flags are viewedfrom both sides right when a
flag is on a flagpole, it'sdouble sided. So technically
there is no right and leftbecause it's flipped, it's
reversed on the other side. Soin technical terms, that's a
hoist side and a fly side. Sothe hoist side, that's the
(05:30):
flagpole that's the side thatthe flagpole is on. That's
always on the left in mydescriptions, and the fly side,
that's the unattached side.
That's on the right.
Christine Malec (05:40):
Awesome. So since we're in Canada, can we
start with Canada?
JJ Hunt (05:43):
Absolutely. Let's start with the Canadian flag. This is
the the flag known as the mapleleaf, it's a relatively young
flag was adopted in 1965.
Officially, it is considered avertical tri band of colors. So
that would be a one to two toone ratio. So that's equal
rectangular panels of bright redon either side. So on the right
(06:06):
side, in the left side, you'vegot these rectangular vertical
panels have very bright like ascarlet red. And then in the
middle, you have a double widthpanel of white, so red, white,
and then red. And right in themiddle on that white panel is a
stylized red maple leaf. And thered panels on the on the on the
(06:30):
sides. Those represent theoceans, the Pacific Ocean on the
left of the Atlantic Ocean onthe right. And the idea that
Canada stretches from sea tosea, that's been an important
one in our understanding ofself. But in fact, Canada
actually stretches from sea tosea to sea, right, we stretch
all the way to the Arctic Ocean.
(06:53):
But that's not represented onthe flag just the two panels
right and left representing theoceans. The leaf, the red maple
leaf has actually been used torepresent Canada since the 18th
century. It's on the coat ofarms for Ontario and Quebec, and
was later put on the coat ofarms for Canada itself. It's
been on all coins since 1901.
And it's actually a regimentalsymbol, going back to the 1860s
(07:17):
and is used in regimentalsymbols in the First World War
and Second World War. So theleaf has been associated with
Canada for quite a while theleaf as it appears on the
Canadian flag has precisely 11points. So three of those points
are pointing to the upper left,three of them are at the center
(07:40):
pointing up, and three of themare pointing to the upper right.
And then there are two points atthe bottom one on either side of
the stem. Now some people tryand squeeze some symbolism out
of those 11 points, right? Those11 points represent unity and
confidence and blah, blah, blah.
(08:01):
It's actually not true.
Christine Malec (08:02):
Ha ha!
JJ Hunt (08:03):
In truth the 11 points are there because they did some
wind tunnel tests with differentflags with different Maple Leafs
on it. And the 11 pointconfiguration was the one that
was least blurry in high windsituations.
Christine Malec (08:16):
Perfect.
JJ Hunt (08:17):
So I kind of like that.
Canada, the evidence basedcountry.
Christine Malec (08:21):
Ha ha! Oooh, science! Shall we move on to the
US?
JJ Hunt (08:27):
Yeah, absolutely. So the American flag, and a lot of
my information on the Americanflag comes right from the US
government website. I mean,everyone knows the red, white
and blue as an idea. This is afield of 13, alternating red and
white horizontal stripes. Sothese represent the original 13
(08:48):
colonies. The red representsvalor and bravery. And the white
represents purity and innocence.
In the upper left, so that's onthe hoist side, there's a
rectangular panel of white starson a blue background, and the
blue that represents vigilance,perseverance, and justice. And
(09:11):
the stars. They represent thenumber of states in the union.
And so that number has changed.
That's the that is the classicAmerican flag. And then there's
the Confederate flag, whichshould only be discussed because
it's in the news a lot of late,right? This has been discussed,
(09:34):
this has been brought to theCapitol building as part of the
insurgency. And actually it wasspecifically referenced, I
think, in the request [for thistopic]. So the Confederate flag,
what we know is the Confederateflag is, of course, widely
recognized as a symbol of theConfederacy. But I learned as
part of my research, that it wasnever actually adopted as their
(09:58):
official flag. It was proposed,but it was rejected. This is not
the flag of the ConfederateStates of America. It's a battle
flag that was used during theCivil War. This is a war flag.
It's a red background. It's gota blue corner, the corner X with
(10:19):
a thin white border. And thenthere are 13 white stars that
are spaced out inside that bluex. So red background, blue
corner, the corner x, whitestars inside the blue x, that's
the Confederate flag.
Christine Malec (10:37):
Let's talk Australia, what is Australia's
look like?
JJ Hunt (10:40):
So the Australian flag has a dark blue background. And
it's actually got a full unionjack in the upper left, that's
on the hoist side. And the restof the flag is six white stars.
In the field of blue in thisdark blue background, the
largest star is directly belowthe union jack on the left, this
(11:04):
is a seven point star, this isthe Commonwealth star. And then
there are four mid size sevenpoint stars and one five point
star that are on the right side.
And they're arranged like thethe Southern Cross
constellation, the four mid sizestars are the points of the
cross. And then the little guyis kind of down and off to the
(11:24):
center of the to the center,right? That's where the little
guy is in that constellation isa very distinctive constellation
that's visible in the southernhemisphere. And it's apparently
been used to represent Australiasince the early days of British
settlement.
Christine Malec (11:42):
So let's talk union jack. Let's break that
down.
JJ Hunt (11:44):
Yeah, the union jack really is kind of like the
grandfather of all of the flagswe've already been talking
about, right? This is the colorsyou'll repeated over and over
again. Of course, the Australianflag actually has the union jack
in it. But the Union, the unionjack is the flag of the United
Kingdom. It's not the flag ofEngland. This is an important
(12:06):
point, that the whole idea ofthe union jack is that it takes
the symbols of multiplecountries their crosses, and
puts them together in a unitedflag, a Union Flag, the union
jack, the English flag is a redcross that centered on a white
background. So one vertical bandof red one horizontal band of
(12:30):
red that cross that meet in thecenter. This is the Cross of St.
George, who's the patron saintof England since I think
something like the 1270s. TheScottish flag is a white X on a
blue background. So this is acorner to corner x. White on a
blue background. This is the StAndrew's cross. This was adopted
(12:53):
in the 16th century. The formerIrish flag is a thin red X on a
white background. So again, acorner to corner x in red on a
white background. This is theCross of St. Patrick. And it
dates back to like the 15th or16th century. So this is not the
(13:13):
Irish flag that we know todaywith the green, the white and
the orange tricolour flag thatwas adopted in 1916 the that
that flag is not part of theunion jack. When you take those
three flags, the English, theScottish and the Irish, and you
put them all together, you startwith the blue background and the
white x from Scotland. And thenyou take the thin red X from
(13:37):
Ireland and you layer it insideScotland's white x. So now
you've got a red X inside awhite X on a blue background.
And then on top of that, you adda thick Red Cross that's
bordered by white you take thatfrom the English flag, and then
you've got a united flag withthe English, the Scottish and
(14:00):
the Irish. But I have to say, asthe grandson of Glyndwr, I have
to ask, where's my red dragon?
Christine Malec (14:08):
Where is the Welsh?! Where is Wales! Ha ha.
JJ Hunt (14:10):
Where is the Welsh dragon? The Welsh flag is
gorgeous. It's fantastic. Ahorizontal band of white atop a
band of green. A giant reddragon with scales and an
arrowhead tongue and tail I meantheir details in this dragon
claws and scales and wings it'sglorious. I want my dragon! Give
(14:32):
me a dragon!
Christine Malec (14:32):
How dare they! No imagination at all, eh?
JJ Hunt (14:35):
Oh my goodness. Just put a giant dragon on the whole
thing. Ha ha!
Christine Malec (14:38):
Really they should just replace the whole
union jack with a dragon. Imean, come on. It's obvious.
JJ Hunt (14:44):
Ha ha ha!
Christine Malec (14:47):
I'm interested in the union jack in in a sense
of bringing things together. Andwhen we were talking about this
episode, I was wondering aboutflags like the the EU, the
European Union, or the AfricanUnion and whether they come up
with something new or do theylike the union jack try to
(15:08):
incorporate some though not allof their component parts.
JJ Hunt (15:13):
So the the European flag that the the EU uses is a
blue background with a ring, acircle of 12 gold stars. And the
idea here is that those stars,they stand for the ideals of
unity, solidarity and harmonyamong the peoples of Europe. So
(15:36):
I don't think... There werejust so many countries that were
coming into the European Union,they couldn't do the same type
of thing from a designperspective that the union jack
did taking elements from all ofthese flags, it just would have
been chaos. So instead, theytook the concept of a whole
being made up of parts; a circlemade up of these individual
(16:01):
stars. It's golden stars on ablue background, that's the
European Union Flag, the EUflag. So the flag of the African
Union, the most recent one, wasadopted only 11 years ago in in
2010. And it's got a ratio oftwo to three. So it's a bit
squat. And it is a dark greenbackground, a ring of gold
(16:28):
stars, again, this ring of goldstars. And then in the center,
you've got a map of the Africancontinent, plus some offshore
islands. And this silhouette ofthe continent is backed by a
white sun with lots of shafts oflight. So you get this white,
(16:52):
brilliant sun with shafts oflight in white, bursting forth.
And then on top of that, you'vegot the silhouette of the
African continent, and that isall encircled by 53 five point
gold stars, that's the flag thathas been used since 2010 for the
(17:13):
African Union.
Christine Malec (17:14):
Lovely. Is there a United Nations flag?
JJ Hunt (17:17):
There is. So the United Nations flag is the emblem of
the United Nations in white onwhat they call a smoke blue. So
this is kind of like a sky bluebackground. And so this is a
view of the earth of thecontinents of Earth, but with
the North Pole at the center.
And then there are someconcentric circles around that,
that kind of look a little bitlike a bull's eye. But those are
(17:41):
really like latitudinal lines, Isuppose from a map makers
perspective. So you're lookingdown on the on a stylized
version of the planet, with theNorth Pole at the center. And
then around the outside of thiscircle, you have olive branches
that cross at the bottom. Sothese are stylized olive
(18:04):
branches that cross at thebottom, and they're kind of like
cupping this representation ofthe map of the earth in the
middle. So that's the UnitedNations logo, and flag.
Christine Malec (18:22):
All of branches are as many people no symbol of
peace. And I wonder in thegeneral sense, what proportion
of flags are a simplearrangement of vertical or
horizontal stripes of differentcolors? And and what proportion
of flags are representational orsymbolic?
JJ Hunt (18:41):
That's a really good question. So, I mean, it's a
very, very, very broad mix. Sothere are lots of flags that are
just vertical bands of color,lots of flags that are
horizontal bands of color,usually threes, sometimes twos
and with different ratios,right? Often they are equal, but
sometimes they are not. And thensometimes you have flags that
(19:05):
have that as a background, andthen you put a specific symbol
or a coat of arms or somethingon it, either centered or in the
upper left or sometimes offcenter as well. So it really is
quite varied, but drawing on alot of the same symbolism. So
sometimes the colors mean asimilar thing from one country
(19:29):
to another, sometimes they meansomething very specific to the
region that they arerepresenting. And then sometimes
the symbols are themselvesdensely packed with, with
symbols that go back hundredsand hundreds of years. So if
you've got a coat of arms, likeI'm thinking of the flag of
(19:50):
Portugal, that's got a coat ofarms that is quite dense, quite
rich. The symbols there could beunpacked and you could probably
spend half an hour decoding justthat.
Christine Malec (20:07):
When you talk about the union jack, there was
lots of Christian imagery. Arethere other parts of the world
where you see differentreligious symbols?
JJ Hunt (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
There are lots of crosses usedaround the world. And if you
trace those back, historicallythose would be decidedly
Christian. There are other partsof the world where crescents are
used. And and I'm sure you cantrace those back to religious
roots in in in many, many cases.
Christine Malec (20:37):
I think we had lined up a little Tick Tock type
version of a flag rundown. Canwe do that? I can clap, you
know, if you want me to. Ha ha!
JJ Hunt (20:48):
You know, I was looking at all these flags, and there
are some fantastic flags outthere, some really wonderful
ones that that just didn't fitinto the kind of breakdown we
were doing with the union jackas the as the grandfather and
all the other flags that kind ofcame from that. So I did want to
do a shout out to some othercool flags. So why don't I just
riff, I'll just throw them outthere kind of quickly. Some
Why is that your favorite?
(21:10):
of these are kind of fun. Oky, so Bhutan has a white Thunder
dragon on a gold and orange backround that split diagonally from
lower left to the upper rightCambodia has a blue horizontal
panels. So these are blue horizotal panels on the top and bot
om with a red panel across thmiddle. And then there's a
(21:32):
hite illustration ofAngkor Wat the world famous Kh
er temple, right in the center.
ebanon, has a thin stripe ofed at the top and the bottom.
And then there's a green cedar tee on a white background to s
mbolize immortality, tht's right in the middle of this
reen cedar tree. On the white wih a red stripe at the top of b
ttom Nepal has non-quadrangulaflags. So this is not a rectan
(21:55):
ular flag. As far as I know te only one that's like thi
, it's in fact to flat back trangles. So pennants, there
s a slightly smaller one, aop, a larger one. These are
ed pennants with blue borders. Ad there's a white symbol of
a star inside the bottom flagthat represents the sun, and th
n a white symbol of a star insidof a crescent moon. This is t
(22:18):
e crescent moon as seen from Neal, so it's shaped like a s
ile. And that represents theoon, then my favorite, the f
ag from Kenya. So these are hoizontal stripes of black, red a
d green. These are separated bthin white lines. And all
f this is symbolic. The back represents the people of t
(22:39):
e country. The red representshe blood spilled while fighting
olonialism. And the green repreents the natural wealth of the c
untry. And then the fact that tey are separated by these thin w
ite lines is very intentiona. The white lines seal the
lag with peace. And right in thcenter of this flag is a red M
asai shield that is backed bcross spears. And that represe
(23:00):
ts the defense of freedom.
I just love that it's not onlythe three colors, the black, red
and green, they're veryspecific. Like the black to
represent the people, the red torepresent not only blood
spilled, which is very common,but blood spilled fighting
(23:22):
colonialism. I liked howspecific that was. But then the
fact that they're separated bywhite lines, which is quite
unusual in most flags that justhave bars of color. It's just
one bar beside the other besidethe other, there's nothing
separating them. And this onehaving the thin white lines
that, in there in the mind ofthe the designers who came up
(23:44):
with this flag, they're notseparating them, they're sealing
them. These white lines seal theflag with peace. I quite liked
that. And then the shield andcrossed Spears, representing the
defense of freedom quitespecifically, I just loved the
ideals that were being putforward with this flag. I loved
the the the symbolism and andit's just a beautifully designed
(24:08):
flag. There's something veryaesthetically appealing and
clear to have a shield likethis. It is clear and easily
identifiable without being sointricate that it's no longer a
good flag when seen at adistance. You know, that's
that's really important in aflag. It's just beautifully
designed. Lovely symbolism. Ijust found it really appealing.
Christine Malec (24:33):
This may be impossible to answer. But in
general, as you know, youraverage sighted person - I'm
making air quotes - how manyflags do you think you would
know by sight before you didthis research?
JJ Hunt (24:47):
Great question. I would probably know and could clearly
identify, easily identify, adozen. I would just know at a
glance, that's a union jack,that's the flag of the UK.
That's the American flag, I knowall of those. And then there'll
(25:10):
be a tier where I'd be like "Ah,okay, is that one? Is that is
that France? Or is thatIreland?" You know what I mean?
They're like three bands ofcolor, and I'm pretty sure it's
one of the two. But it might bethe other one, because there are
a lot that are very similar. Sothere'll be a whole group that
are recognizable, but I wouldn'tbe 100% confident walking up to
(25:34):
someone and saying"Hey, you'reGerman!" I wouldn't do that. An
then there are a whole bunch tht I could guess, but would pr
bably be wrong on. I mean, 15 countries plus things like th
United Nations and the AfricanUnion.... there are a lo
of flags out there.
Christine Malec (25:55):
I could be totally out in the weeds here.
But if you saw a flag that youdidn't recognize, couldn't
identify, would you have a guessat what part of the world it
JJ Hunt (26:04):
Oh, interesti g. There would be some, but
most you wouldn't be able to ientify unless it had a v
ry specific symbol on it. Lik, for example, this shield on th
on the flag from Kenya. Thehe shape of the shield, the des
gn of the shield... Frankl, I'm gonna guess that's from an
(26:25):
African country. I might be wong, but I'm not gonna think th
t it's from Sweden, right? Theshape of it is is a shape tha
is recognizable. But if it's jut three or four bands of color
who knows?!
Christine Malec (26:46):
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Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashtag in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
We had an email request from David recently, and
other listeners have requestedthis too, to talk about flags.
And, of course, as blind people,we all know that flags are
multifaceted and they havedifferent things that they
represent. And for the mostpart, maybe we don't know all
(01:07):
that much about them. Well,okay, I'm speaking for myself
there. But when we startedtalking about it, it turned out
to be a lot more complex than Ihad had thought and who has
flags and and why and what theyactually represent. So, JJ,
maybe that's a good place tostart is what's the purpose of
flags? And why do they exist?
JJ Hunt (01:28):
Yeah it's really interesting. I mean, from a
design perspective, how do youconvey a sense of place a sense
of people identity, using afairly standardized set of
design principles and commonlyunderstood symbols? It's, it is
really quite fascinating. Rightoff the top? Which flags are we
(01:49):
going to be talking about whichflags that we're going to
describe? I mean, there are 200,almost 200 countries in the
world. Plus there are states andprovinces. And then there are
rallying flags for groupsseeking independence there at
all, a lot of different flagsout there. We talked about this,
Chris, obviously, we are anEnglish language podcasts so our
(02:10):
listeners are Canadian,American. They're from the UK.
They're from Australia. So we'regoing to talk a bit about those
flags. Because those are theflags of our listeners, but also
because those flags work welltogether. Because they're from
countries that share a commonhistory, common colors, common
(02:32):
symbols, common design elements,right? It's important to
acknowledge though, when we'retalking about those common
histories, that the commonhistory that those countries
share is colonialism. Theseflags are intentionally designed
to inspire nationalistic pridefor some people, but they can
also be symbols of oppression,too. So obviously, that's
(02:55):
getting into territory that'sbeyond the scope of this
podcast, but I did still, youknow, I did want to acknowledge
that.
Christine Malec (03:01):
And when we talked about it before, the
topic came up of are there flagsfor indigenous peoples? And it
JJ, you did a quick internetsearch. And apart from the
images, one of the things Ithought was most interesting is
that there are and they arequite recent, it's a very recent
phenomenon to have like, sothere's lots of reasons for
(03:24):
that. But that fact reallyhighlighted for me that it's
it's a lot more complex aspatriotism is much more complex
than you might think on thesurface.
JJ Hunt (03:34):
Yeah for sure. I mean, the use of flags has been around
for centuries, like I read thatit goes back as perhaps as far
as the Bronze Age that peoplehave been using flags,
particularly in militarysituations, flags were used as
military standards duringbattle, both on land and then
later at sea, you would haveflags to identify your group of
(04:00):
people. And so these flags aredesigned to be viewed from a
distance. They're designed toinspire and identify your
troops, and maybe evenintimidate your enemies. And so
these flags, they includeheraldry symbolism color
Association, and some of thesemight go back hundreds and
(04:22):
hundreds and hundreds of years.
So really quite fascinating. Alittle bit of technical
information. Before I go on withthe descriptions, that flags are
typically house flags that wesee in North America are
typically like three feet tallby five feet wide. So they
follow a three to five ratio,some follow a one to two ratio,
(04:44):
so they would be maybe two feettall and four feet wide. Roughly
speaking, that's more or lesslike a cell phone in landscape
mode, right? That's kind of whatwe're talking about for flag
dimensions. And I'm often goingto be describing To right and
left when I'm describing theflags, because that's how flags
are represented in drawings andphotos and illustrations. They
(05:06):
have a visual right and left.
But in fact, flags are viewedfrom both sides right when a
flag is on a flagpole, it'sdouble sided. So technically
there is no right and leftbecause it's flipped, it's
reversed on the other side. Soin technical terms, that's a
hoist side and a fly side. Sothe hoist side, that's the
(05:30):
flagpole that's the side thatthe flagpole is on. That's
always on the left in mydescriptions, and the fly side,
that's the unattached side.
That's on the right.
Christine Malec (05:40):
Awesome. So since we're in Canada, can we
start with Canada?
JJ Hunt (05:43):
Absolutely. Let's start with the Canadian flag. This is
the the flag known as the mapleleaf, it's a relatively young
flag was adopted in 1965.
Officially, it is considered avertical tri band of colors. So
that would be a one to two toone ratio. So that's equal
rectangular panels of bright redon either side. So on the right
(06:06):
side, in the left side, you'vegot these rectangular vertical
panels have very bright like ascarlet red. And then in the
middle, you have a double widthpanel of white, so red, white,
and then red. And right in themiddle on that white panel is a
stylized red maple leaf. And thered panels on the on the on the
(06:30):
sides. Those represent theoceans, the Pacific Ocean on the
left of the Atlantic Ocean onthe right. And the idea that
Canada stretches from sea tosea, that's been an important
one in our understanding ofself. But in fact, Canada
actually stretches from sea tosea to sea, right, we stretch
all the way to the Arctic Ocean.
(06:53):
But that's not represented onthe flag just the two panels
right and left representing theoceans. The leaf, the red maple
leaf has actually been used torepresent Canada since the 18th
century. It's on the coat ofarms for Ontario and Quebec, and
was later put on the coat ofarms for Canada itself. It's
been on all coins since 1901.
And it's actually a regimentalsymbol, going back to the 1860s
(07:17):
and is used in regimentalsymbols in the First World War
and Second World War. So theleaf has been associated with
Canada for quite a while theleaf as it appears on the
Canadian flag has precisely 11points. So three of those points
are pointing to the upper left,three of them are at the center
(07:40):
pointing up, and three of themare pointing to the upper right.
And then there are two points atthe bottom one on either side of
the stem. Now some people tryand squeeze some symbolism out
of those 11 points, right? Those11 points represent unity and
confidence and blah, blah, blah.
(08:01):
It's actually not true.
Christine Malec (08:02):
Ha ha!
JJ Hunt (08:03):
In truth the 11 points are there because they did some
wind tunnel tests with differentflags with different Maple Leafs
on it. And the 11 pointconfiguration was the one that
was least blurry in high windsituations.
Christine Malec (08:16):
Perfect.
JJ Hunt (08:17):
So I kind of like that.
Canada, the evidence basedcountry.
Christine Malec (08:21):
Ha ha! Oooh, science! Shall we move on to the
US?
JJ Hunt (08:27):
Yeah, absolutely. So the American flag, and a lot of
my information on the Americanflag comes right from the US
government website. I mean,everyone knows the red, white
and blue as an idea. This is afield of 13, alternating red and
white horizontal stripes. Sothese represent the original 13
(08:48):
colonies. The red representsvalor and bravery. And the white
represents purity and innocence.
In the upper left, so that's onthe hoist side, there's a
rectangular panel of white starson a blue background, and the
blue that represents vigilance,perseverance, and justice. And
(09:11):
the stars. They represent thenumber of states in the union.
And so that number has changed.
That's the that is the classicAmerican flag. And then there's
the Confederate flag, whichshould only be discussed because
it's in the news a lot of late,right? This has been discussed,
(09:34):
this has been brought to theCapitol building as part of the
insurgency. And actually it wasspecifically referenced, I
think, in the request [for thistopic]. So the Confederate flag,
what we know is the Confederateflag is, of course, widely
recognized as a symbol of theConfederacy. But I learned as
part of my research, that it wasnever actually adopted as their
(09:58):
official flag. It was proposed,but it was rejected. This is not
the flag of the ConfederateStates of America. It's a battle
flag that was used during theCivil War. This is a war flag.
It's a red background. It's gota blue corner, the corner X with
(10:19):
a thin white border. And thenthere are 13 white stars that
are spaced out inside that bluex. So red background, blue
corner, the corner x, whitestars inside the blue x, that's
the Confederate flag.
Christine Malec (10:37):
Let's talk Australia, what is Australia's
look like?
JJ Hunt (10:40):
So the Australian flag has a dark blue background. And
it's actually got a full unionjack in the upper left, that's
on the hoist side. And the restof the flag is six white stars.
In the field of blue in thisdark blue background, the
largest star is directly belowthe union jack on the left, this
(11:04):
is a seven point star, this isthe Commonwealth star. And then
there are four mid size sevenpoint stars and one five point
star that are on the right side.
And they're arranged like thethe Southern Cross
constellation, the four mid sizestars are the points of the
cross. And then the little guyis kind of down and off to the
(11:24):
center of the to the center,right? That's where the little
guy is in that constellation isa very distinctive constellation
that's visible in the southernhemisphere. And it's apparently
been used to represent Australiasince the early days of British
settlement.
Christine Malec (11:42):
So let's talk union jack. Let's break that
down.
JJ Hunt (11:44):
Yeah, the union jack really is kind of like the
grandfather of all of the flagswe've already been talking
about, right? This is the colorsyou'll repeated over and over
again. Of course, the Australianflag actually has the union jack
in it. But the Union, the unionjack is the flag of the United
Kingdom. It's not the flag ofEngland. This is an important
(12:06):
point, that the whole idea ofthe union jack is that it takes
the symbols of multiplecountries their crosses, and
puts them together in a unitedflag, a Union Flag, the union
jack, the English flag is a redcross that centered on a white
background. So one vertical bandof red one horizontal band of
(12:30):
red that cross that meet in thecenter. This is the Cross of St.
George, who's the patron saintof England since I think
something like the 1270s. TheScottish flag is a white X on a
blue background. So this is acorner to corner x. White on a
blue background. This is the StAndrew's cross. This was adopted
(12:53):
in the 16th century. The formerIrish flag is a thin red X on a
white background. So again, acorner to corner x in red on a
white background. This is theCross of St. Patrick. And it
dates back to like the 15th or16th century. So this is not the
(13:13):
Irish flag that we know todaywith the green, the white and
the orange tricolour flag thatwas adopted in 1916 the that
that flag is not part of theunion jack. When you take those
three flags, the English, theScottish and the Irish, and you
put them all together, you startwith the blue background and the
white x from Scotland. And thenyou take the thin red X from
(13:37):
Ireland and you layer it insideScotland's white x. So now
you've got a red X inside awhite X on a blue background.
And then on top of that, you adda thick Red Cross that's
bordered by white you take thatfrom the English flag, and then
you've got a united flag withthe English, the Scottish and
(14:00):
the Irish. But I have to say, asthe grandson of Glyndwr, I have
to ask, where's my red dragon?
Christine Malec (14:08):
Where is the Welsh?! Where is Wales! Ha ha.
JJ Hunt (14:10):
Where is the Welsh dragon? The Welsh flag is
gorgeous. It's fantastic. Ahorizontal band of white atop a
band of green. A giant reddragon with scales and an
arrowhead tongue and tail I meantheir details in this dragon
claws and scales and wings it'sglorious. I want my dragon! Give
(14:32):
me a dragon!
Christine Malec (14:32):
How dare they! No imagination at all, eh?
JJ Hunt (14:35):
Oh my goodness. Just put a giant dragon on the whole
thing. Ha ha!
Christine Malec (14:38):
Really they should just replace the whole
union jack with a dragon. Imean, come on. It's obvious.
JJ Hunt (14:44):
Ha ha ha!
Christine Malec (14:47):
I'm interested in the union jack in in a sense
of bringing things together. Andwhen we were talking about this
episode, I was wondering aboutflags like the the EU, the
European Union, or the AfricanUnion and whether they come up
with something new or do theylike the union jack try to
(15:08):
incorporate some though not allof their component parts.
JJ Hunt (15:13):
So the the European flag that the the EU uses is a
blue background with a ring, acircle of 12 gold stars. And the
idea here is that those stars,they stand for the ideals of
unity, solidarity and harmonyamong the peoples of Europe. So
(15:36):
I don't think... There werejust so many countries that were
coming into the European Union,they couldn't do the same type
of thing from a designperspective that the union jack
did taking elements from all ofthese flags, it just would have
been chaos. So instead, theytook the concept of a whole
being made up of parts; a circlemade up of these individual
(16:01):
stars. It's golden stars on ablue background, that's the
European Union Flag, the EUflag. So the flag of the African
Union, the most recent one, wasadopted only 11 years ago in in
2010. And it's got a ratio oftwo to three. So it's a bit
squat. And it is a dark greenbackground, a ring of gold
(16:28):
stars, again, this ring of goldstars. And then in the center,
you've got a map of the Africancontinent, plus some offshore
islands. And this silhouette ofthe continent is backed by a
white sun with lots of shafts oflight. So you get this white,
(16:52):
brilliant sun with shafts oflight in white, bursting forth.
And then on top of that, you'vegot the silhouette of the
African continent, and that isall encircled by 53 five point
gold stars, that's the flag thathas been used since 2010 for the
(17:13):
African Union.
Christine Malec (17:14):
Lovely. Is there a United Nations flag?
JJ Hunt (17:17):
There is. So the United Nations flag is the emblem of
the United Nations in white onwhat they call a smoke blue. So
this is kind of like a sky bluebackground. And so this is a
view of the earth of thecontinents of Earth, but with
the North Pole at the center.
And then there are someconcentric circles around that,
that kind of look a little bitlike a bull's eye. But those are
(17:41):
really like latitudinal lines, Isuppose from a map makers
perspective. So you're lookingdown on the on a stylized
version of the planet, with theNorth Pole at the center. And
then around the outside of thiscircle, you have olive branches
that cross at the bottom. Sothese are stylized olive
(18:04):
branches that cross at thebottom, and they're kind of like
cupping this representation ofthe map of the earth in the
middle. So that's the UnitedNations logo, and flag.
Christine Malec (18:22):
All of branches are as many people no symbol of
peace. And I wonder in thegeneral sense, what proportion
of flags are a simplearrangement of vertical or
horizontal stripes of differentcolors? And and what proportion
of flags are representational orsymbolic?
JJ Hunt (18:41):
That's a really good question. So, I mean, it's a
very, very, very broad mix. Sothere are lots of flags that are
just vertical bands of color,lots of flags that are
horizontal bands of color,usually threes, sometimes twos
and with different ratios,right? Often they are equal, but
sometimes they are not. And thensometimes you have flags that
(19:05):
have that as a background, andthen you put a specific symbol
or a coat of arms or somethingon it, either centered or in the
upper left or sometimes offcenter as well. So it really is
quite varied, but drawing on alot of the same symbolism. So
sometimes the colors mean asimilar thing from one country
(19:29):
to another, sometimes they meansomething very specific to the
region that they arerepresenting. And then sometimes
the symbols are themselvesdensely packed with, with
symbols that go back hundredsand hundreds of years. So if
you've got a coat of arms, likeI'm thinking of the flag of
(19:50):
Portugal, that's got a coat ofarms that is quite dense, quite
rich. The symbols there could beunpacked and you could probably
spend half an hour decoding justthat.
Christine Malec (20:07):
When you talk about the union jack, there was
lots of Christian imagery. Arethere other parts of the world
where you see differentreligious symbols?
JJ Hunt (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
There are lots of crosses usedaround the world. And if you
trace those back, historicallythose would be decidedly
Christian. There are other partsof the world where crescents are
used. And and I'm sure you cantrace those back to religious
roots in in in many, many cases.
Christine Malec (20:37):
I think we had lined up a little Tick Tock type
version of a flag rundown. Canwe do that? I can clap, you
know, if you want me to. Ha ha!
JJ Hunt (20:48):
You know, I was looking at all these flags, and there
are some fantastic flags outthere, some really wonderful
ones that that just didn't fitinto the kind of breakdown we
were doing with the union jackas the as the grandfather and
all the other flags that kind ofcame from that. So I did want to
do a shout out to some othercool flags. So why don't I just
riff, I'll just throw them outthere kind of quickly. Some
Why is that your favorite?
(21:10):
of these are kind of fun. Oky, so Bhutan has a white Thunder
dragon on a gold and orange backround that split diagonally from
lower left to the upper rightCambodia has a blue horizontal
panels. So these are blue horizotal panels on the top and bot
om with a red panel across thmiddle. And then there's a
(21:32):
hite illustration ofAngkor Wat the world famous Kh
er temple, right in the center.
ebanon, has a thin stripe ofed at the top and the bottom.
And then there's a green cedar tee on a white background to s
mbolize immortality, tht's right in the middle of this
reen cedar tree. On the white wih a red stripe at the top of b
ttom Nepal has non-quadrangulaflags. So this is not a rectan
(21:55):
ular flag. As far as I know te only one that's like thi
, it's in fact to flat back trangles. So pennants, there
s a slightly smaller one, aop, a larger one. These are
ed pennants with blue borders. Ad there's a white symbol of
a star inside the bottom flagthat represents the sun, and th
n a white symbol of a star insidof a crescent moon. This is t
(22:18):
e crescent moon as seen from Neal, so it's shaped like a s
ile. And that represents theoon, then my favorite, the f
ag from Kenya. So these are hoizontal stripes of black, red a
d green. These are separated bthin white lines. And all
f this is symbolic. The back represents the people of t
(22:39):
e country. The red representshe blood spilled while fighting
olonialism. And the green repreents the natural wealth of the c
untry. And then the fact that tey are separated by these thin w
ite lines is very intentiona. The white lines seal the
lag with peace. And right in thcenter of this flag is a red M
asai shield that is backed bcross spears. And that represe
(23:00):
ts the defense of freedom.
I just love that it's not onlythe three colors, the black, red
and green, they're veryspecific. Like the black to
represent the people, the red torepresent not only blood
spilled, which is very common,but blood spilled fighting
(23:22):
colonialism. I liked howspecific that was. But then the
fact that they're separated bywhite lines, which is quite
unusual in most flags that justhave bars of color. It's just
one bar beside the other besidethe other, there's nothing
separating them. And this onehaving the thin white lines
that, in there in the mind ofthe the designers who came up
(23:44):
with this flag, they're notseparating them, they're sealing
them. These white lines seal theflag with peace. I quite liked
that. And then the shield andcrossed Spears, representing the
defense of freedom quitespecifically, I just loved the
ideals that were being putforward with this flag. I loved
the the the symbolism and andit's just a beautifully designed
(24:08):
flag. There's something veryaesthetically appealing and
clear to have a shield likethis. It is clear and easily
identifiable without being sointricate that it's no longer a
good flag when seen at adistance. You know, that's
that's really important in aflag. It's just beautifully
designed. Lovely symbolism. Ijust found it really appealing.
Christine Malec (24:33):
This may be impossible to answer. But in
general, as you know, youraverage sighted person - I'm
making air quotes - how manyflags do you think you would
know by sight before you didthis research?
JJ Hunt (24:47):
Great question. I would probably know and could clearly
identify, easily identify, adozen. I would just know at a
glance, that's a union jack,that's the flag of the UK.
That's the American flag, I knowall of those. And then there'll
(25:10):
be a tier where I'd be like "Ah,okay, is that one? Is that is
that France? Or is thatIreland?" You know what I mean?
They're like three bands ofcolor, and I'm pretty sure it's
one of the two. But it might bethe other one, because there are
a lot that are very similar. Sothere'll be a whole group that
are recognizable, but I wouldn'tbe 100% confident walking up to
(25:34):
someone and saying"Hey, you'reGerman!" I wouldn't do that. An
then there are a whole bunch tht I could guess, but would pr
bably be wrong on. I mean, 15 countries plus things like th
United Nations and the AfricanUnion.... there are a lo
of flags out there.
Christine Malec (25:55):
I could be totally out in the weeds here.
But if you saw a flag that youdidn't recognize, couldn't
identify, would you have a guessat what part of the world it
JJ Hunt (26:04):
Oh, interesti g. There would be some, but
most you wouldn't be able to ientify unless it had a v
ry specific symbol on it. Lik, for example, this shield on th
on the flag from Kenya. Thehe shape of the shield, the des
gn of the shield... Frankl, I'm gonna guess that's from an
(26:25):
African country. I might be wong, but I'm not gonna think th
t it's from Sweden, right? Theshape of it is is a shape tha
is recognizable. But if it's jut three or four bands of color
who knows?!
Christine Malec (26:46):
We hope you're loving the show. We really enjoy
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That's where you come in, helpspread the word. Maybe send a
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