March 13, 2021 • 34 mins
We've all been cooped up far too long. Let's get out and do some exploring! Today, Christine asks JJ to describe three Wonders of the World: Niagara Falls, the Taj Mahal, and Angkor Wat. Join us for some description-rich virtual travelling!
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Episode Transcript
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JJ Hunt (00:04):
Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashtag in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:46):
The idea for today's episode came from our
live event last December andthere was a huge interest in
talking about some of thewonders of the world. And it
being Spring, and experiencing acertain amount of restlessness
thinking about travel, wethought we would focus on three
today. And so we're going totalk about - I'll just give the
(01:09):
spoilers now - we're going totalk about Niagara Falls, the
Taj Mahal, and the temple ofAngkor Wat. Part of the reason I
wanted to name all three of themin one sentence is because JJ,
you've been to them all, whichis absolutely awesome. So we're
gonna start with Niagara Falls.
And it's funny because in theevent, a few of us, myself
included, said, okay, it'sembarrassing to admit it kind of
(01:32):
like, you know, jazz hands orsomething. But I don't actually
have the big picture of NiagaraFalls. And I always act like I
do, but the truth is, that Idon't, so we're gonna we're
going to tackle Niagara Falls,but we're not going over in a
barrel, we're just where shouldwe start?
JJ Hunt (01:49):
So Niagara Falls is actually three distinct
waterfalls, there's theHorseshoe Falls on the Niagara
Falls, Ontario side, that's theCanadian side. And then the
American falls and the BridalVeil Falls, which are side by
side, on the Niagara Falls, NewYork side. But really all of
them are best viewed from theCanadian side. So that's where
(02:11):
I've visited, that's been mypoint of view in the past. If
you look at a satellite image, Iwent to Google satellite images
so that I could get a solidunderstanding of the geography.
And there's a relatively narrowstrip of land that separates two
Great Lakes, Lake Erie in theSouth, and Lake Ontario in the
(02:33):
north. The Niagara Riverconnects those two lakes
bisecting that strip of land andthe from the satellite images,
it's pretty clear, you can seethat lake, pardon me that river,
connecting the two lakes, andthat's the border. So on the
east side of the Niagara Riveris the US, New York State. On
(02:56):
the west side is Canada, theprovince of Ontario. And the way
that that river, the NiagaraRiver travels, it actually
splits into two to go around alarge island that's on the US
side. And then when it comesback together, it's quite wide
and fairly powerful. You've gotthis split, it come back
(03:18):
together, it's wide, it'spowerful. And then it narrows
again, and comes to a verysignificant drop in the
landscape. This drop is anywherefrom 70 to 190 feet, that's
about like 20 to 60 meters,those are the falls. And right
at that drop in the landscape,there are a few more islands.
(03:39):
And so some of the water, justbefore it goes over the drop,
cuts to the right. And that's asmaller channel that leads to
the lower drop off of theAmerican falls. But most of the
water cuts to the left of theselast little islands. This is the
much higher much more dramaticHorseshoe Falls. And what's
(04:01):
interesting about the HorseshoeFalls is that the land has
eroded into a very distinctivehorseshoe shape or a U shape the
water in this distinctivehorseshoe or U shape instead of
just falling over a straightedge like it does in most
waterfalls. It falls over all ofthe sides of this U shape and
(04:24):
it's really significant. It's somuch large, the edge of the
waterfall is so much largerbecause of this shape. The
actual the mouth of the river atthis point is only about 1000
feet wide. But because of theway this U shaped cuts into the
land, you end up with 2700 feetof curved waterfall. It's so
(04:50):
much more dramatic because ofthe shape. A lot of water
pouring in. You can imaginewater pouring into a sink
rushing over the edges. Butinstead of just rushing over one
surface, it's rushing over onthree sides, this U shape. So
it's really that's why theHorseshoe Falls are so very
dramatic. So the water that'srushing over creates this very
(05:14):
smooth lip. And it's a neverending stream of water. So the
water comes over in sheets, aperpetual sheet. It just rolls
along the top, rolls over thatover the lip, and then comes
pounding down to the riverbelow. And that's how the water
(05:38):
travels right over the edgerolls over the lip crashes down
below. But it's it's the amountof water because of this U
shape. And it's the power withwhich it hits the the river
below is extremely dramatic. Themist is everywhere. This is a
(05:59):
roaring sound, it's incrediblypowerful.
Christine Malec (06:04):
As a spectator, where the best place to view
this from? Where's the popularviewing spot?
JJ Hunt (06:11):
So on the Canadian side, there's a footpath that's
all along the Niagara River andit extends a fair distance kind
of before and after the falls.
So you can kind of go before thefalls and watch and watch the
water approach. Or you can movea distance from the falls and
you can and then you can take inthe falls from a distance and
therefore see the whole thing alittle bit better. This footpath
(06:33):
is beside a major road. And onthe on the footpath, there's an
old stone wall that's maybewaist high, that's right along
the edge. And you know, afterthe falls, there's a fairly
steep drop off on the far sideof that waist high stone wall.
And in normal times this trailis footpath is packed with
(06:54):
tourists, like there's tons andtons of people, people sitting
on the wall leaning over to takepictures and whatnot. And so
this path comes very close tothe edge of the falls if you
want to position yourself it'sit's a it's a crowd, you kind of
have to wait your turn to getright to the edge. But you can
(07:14):
get yourself up to what feelslike only a few feet away from
the rushing edge of thewaterfall so you can get right
up there and experience theprecipice where the water rushes
over the edge. And then again,because it curves in it's
indented as you say. You can youcan feel surrounded by this
(07:39):
water even though you're not inthe middle of it. There's
something about the way itcurves around. It makes the
sound travel in a particularway. It makes the mist rise up
and gather in at the bottom inthe where all the waters
crashing down into the riverbelow. The mist that comes up
from there is really dramatic.
(07:59):
And I think it's because of thishorseshoe shape.
Christine Malec (08:03):
Let's move on to something a little less
natural, but equally grant theTaj Mahal I have zero sense of
what this looks like. So divein.
JJ Hunt (08:14):
Awesome. Okay, so it was a long time ago that I was
there I visited in my like,serious backpacking days in the
late 90s. So I don't remembermuch of the detail. So my
descriptions are based on imagesearches YouTube videos, and a
little bit of my memory. So theTaj Mahal is an ivory white
(08:34):
mausoleum. It's in the city ofAgra, which is just south of New
Delhi in northern India. And itwas commissioned in 1632 by the
Emperor Shah Jahan to house histhe body of his favorite wife,
Mumtaz Mahal. It's amazingbecause it's a piece of
architecture that seems to beaware of its own beauty. It was
(08:55):
built to be viewed from certainangles. It's so everything about
the Taj Mahal is brilliantlyplanned and brilliantly
executed. The landscape, thebackdrop, the approach, it
really is an architecturalmasterpiece. So the best way to
approach is through what theycall the great gate and the
(09:15):
great gate really is amasterpiece in its own right. It
is red sandstone with some whitemarble inlay. It's about 93 feet
tall. It's a gate with an openpassage through the center, but
it's also a building. It'sactually square with turrets on
each corner, so it's kind of gota castle like layout. And it's
(09:37):
symmetrical with two stories oflarge arches on either side of
the giant arch in the middle,and these arches all have
pointed tips, as if someone tookthe top and kind of the And
pinched them up very graceful.
It's a hint of the fanciful.
What this building does thisgate does is it blocks your view
(09:57):
of the Taj Mahal. So when you'restanding on the far side or on
the near side of the wall ofthis gate, I guess, and you're
approaching, you can't see theTaj Mahal behind it. And as you
walk into this giant archway,which is kind of carved out of
the inside of this gatebuilding, like if you took
(10:18):
imagine like a solid sandcastle, and then you scooped out
the entranceway, that's whatit's like, as you walk into this
giant archway, there are aseries of arches inside the
archway, and then right at thecenter at the bottom ground
level, there's an open archwaywith no closed door. And it also
(10:39):
has that pointed tip, and it'svery, very dark in there. And so
what you see is the light on thefar side, and as you walk
through this gateway, the TajMahal starts to come into view.
First, what you see through yourarchway is the arch of the Taj
Mahal, and it's perfectly inline with the main gate arch so
(11:00):
one door leads directly to theother. And then as you go
further through the your arch,the gate arch, then you get to
see the rest of the mainbuilding of the Taj Mahal, with
its bulb shaped dome in thecenter, flanked by two smaller
domes, then you keep goingthrough and then you see the
(11:20):
four minarets on the platform ofthe Taj Mahal, to at the front
corners to at the back. And thenyou exit this gate, and you find
yourself in this wide opengarden with green lawns. This
distant row of trees between youand the Taj Mahal, that it's cut
this this tree line is cut, sothat it frames the Taj Mahal it
(11:42):
breaks so that the Taj can standbetween these, you know, these
two rows of trees. There's along rectangular reflecting pool
that leads from the gatestraight to the base of the
mausoleum. And the exterior ofthe Taj Mahal is all white
marble. Everything is whitemarble, and so it has the effect
(12:03):
of making it look, solid marbleis solid, heavy material, but
it's also delicate, it's purewhite, so it's very solid and
yet delicate at the same time.
And the architecture, thelandscaping choices, they create
optical illusions, and everyelement of the design of this
space is used to absolutemaximum effect. So for example,
(12:24):
the minarets, there are four oneat each corner of the platform
on which the Taj Mahal stands.
Each one is about 40 metrestall. They're tapered, and
they're topped with open archedlookouts, and then a thin
ornamental finial at the top.
And an element of perspective isthat things that are far away
(12:45):
appear smaller than things thatare close to us. And so the two
minarets at the rear cornersappear smaller and closer
together than the two minaretsat the front. And what this does
when you take in the Taj Mahalfrom this gate, you can see the
elegant symmetry of the Taj andthese and these minarets, so the
(13:06):
outside corners have the tallestminarets and they're tapered,
tapered, minarets make them looktall and straight. In fact,
they're actually pointedoutwards to compensate for
another optical illusion, whichwould have them looking like
they were falling in. So they'retaking everything into account.
(13:27):
And then when you move from theoutside toward the center, you
have the you have the tallestminarets, what seemed like the
tallest minarets on the outside,and then what seemed like
smaller minarets on the inside.
And then in the center is themausoleum with its symmetrical
(13:48):
arches, the small corner domesflanking the large bulb bulb
dome in the middle, beautifullysymmetrical and designed to be
taken in from this oneperspective. It's it's really
remarkable architecture anddesign. And the other thing
that's amazing about this is itit's been built with nothing
(14:08):
behind it. There are nobuildings, there's no large
trees, there's nothing behind itbut wide open sky. And so it is
set off against whatever the skylooks like. If it's a beautiful
blue sky. If it's sunset of itssunrise, you've got pinks and
purples or yellows in the sky,even if it's cloudy, whatever it
(14:30):
is, it's a backdrop to thiswhite marble structure with the
minarets at the corners. It's Itis designed in such a way to be
presented to you to to whoever'staking it in, and then when you
get closer, then you can startto see some of the detail work
that they've done on it. So themarble that has, you know, that
(14:52):
the entire building is made outof is is carved, intricately
carved. So there are carvedvines and floral patterns around
the arches. There's red floralinlay on the plinth and coffins
inside. That densely packed withstraight lines and curved
strokes, right that all of thecarvings and some of its full
(15:13):
relief and some of its just inlace, that's when you know,
there's two materials, onematerial laid into the other all
marble, there's a lot of Islamiccalligraphy carved into the
facade. And again, this reallyinteresting thing they do with
the architects and designers didwith perspective. So you've got
(15:34):
this calligraphy on either sideof the of the doors, if you're
standing right at the arches,and you're looking at this
calligraphy, it's two stories upthat these, you know these
arches, so the calligraphy thatgoes all the way up the side of
the building, the front of thebuilding, it would be smaller at
(15:55):
the top than it is at thebottom, because it's farther
away. In order to compensate forthat they actually made the
inlaid calligraphy at the top,larger than the calligraphy at
the bottom. So when you'restanding and looking straight up
at this, at this calligraphy, itactually looks uniform, it looks
(16:16):
like it's all the same size.
This is the kind of attention todetail, that the designers and
artists that made this buildingput into it. So yes, from from a
distance, it's all about theshape. And then when you get
close up, it's all about thesecarved details.
Christine Malec (16:35):
So the the sort of tricks of perspective, and
architecture, what do they do toyour eye in mind? Is it
confusing? Or is there a oneoverall effect? Or is it a
series of many effects? Like Idon't, it's hard. That's a
really abstract one for, for tounderstand. So what's the effect
(16:55):
of those those tricks.
JJ Hunt (16:56):
So there are a couple of effects. I mean, some of them
I can explain. And some of themI can write like the first of
all, you arrive and your eye istold where to look all of these,
like these, the reflecting poolthat leads straight to the to
the Taj, the rows of conicalshrubs that leads straight
(17:17):
there, your eyes told where tolook. So some of the illusions
are just about pulling your eye,then there's a really
interesting thing. And I don'tknow how to explain this. But
when you approach when you thenwalk toward the Taj Mahal, it
starts off looking quite large.
And then as you get closer andcloser and closer, you would
expect it to look larger, but infact, it starts to look smaller.
(17:39):
Oh, I don't know how that'sdone. So really does mess with
you. And then there are elementsof it that I again, I don't I
don't understand, like the factthat the minarets at the corners
are actually pointing outwards.
(18:00):
You can't see that like that.
That's, I intellectuallyunderstand I've read that in
several from several reliablesources. But it's really hard to
take a picture of becausethey've done such a good it's an
illusion that they are they aretapered in such a way that they
look like they're straight,because you're the human eye
wants to imagine them leaninginward. And by tapering them
(18:21):
out. It makes them lookstraight. I don't.
Christine Malec (18:27):
But what's the point of that one? What's the
point of that one?
JJ Hunt (18:30):
Well, there were two one point was for safety, so
that if there was an earthquakein the minarets fell, they will
fall away from the mainbuilding. Oh, but the other side
of it is the designers didn'twant it to look like they were
pointing in, that would disruptthe perfection. They wanted them
to look straight. And so theonly way to get them to look
(18:50):
straight was to compensate forthis thing that the I did, which
is make it look like they wereall leaning in. So instead, they
made them actually lean out sothat they look straight, drippy.
And that's I think why this is awonder of the world. It's not
just because it's a beautifulbuilding. There's something
(19:10):
about the perfection of thedesign, and the attention to
detail and the framing of it.
And all of that, I think is whatmakes it a wonder of the world.
Christine Malec (19:23):
That's wild.
Are there any elements fromthere that show up in Angkor
Wat?
JJ Hunt (19:27):
Yeah, quite a few acts.
I mean, the approach very muchtakes that into account. There's
kind of some of the basic layoutand design with Angkor Wat with
the the corner towers and thenthe one tower in the middle.
Christine Malec (19:42):
That's Cambodia. Right. So completely
different.
JJ Hunt (19:45):
Totally different totally. Well, I mean, not that
totally different. They werestill there was a lot of you
know, Buddhist influence andIndia had very strong influence
in Southeast Asia. At that time.
the ruin of Angkor Wat looksdry. radically different than
the than the beauty the whitemarble the perfection, because
it's made, it's been maintainedand core was founded in 802, the
(20:08):
city of Ann core,
Christine Malec (20:13):
what was your experience of visiting there?
What's it like to be a touristthere?
JJ Hunt (20:16):
I was in Southeast Asia exactly a year ago just before
COVID went global. And we were,we visited Angkor for three
days. And honestly, it was oneof the highlights of my travel
life. So the anchor was thecapital city of the Khmer
Empire, again, founded 802. Andthe ruins are located near cm
(20:40):
rip, which is a in an areathat's largely forest and
farmland. And of course, youknow, most of us, we think of
Angkor Wat, we think of the onetemple, which is like a 12th
century temple. But ng corps asa city, as a complex is
infinitely more than just theone temple right, the site that
(21:04):
Angkor Wat is on is massive, 400square kilometers, like it's
comparable in size to modern dayLos Angeles. And there are like,
there are over 1000 temples onthis site that range from piles
of ancient rubble that are halfburied in the forest with trees
(21:25):
growing over them the roots oflike, you know, 200 year old
trees that are, you know,surrounding these crumbling
walls. And then there are othertemples that are significantly
restored, like Angkor Wat, whichis more restored. Obviously, I
can't possibly describe theentire site, frankly, even
(21:45):
trying to describe all of AngkorWat is way beyond the amount of
time that we've got today. Butit's important, I think, to keep
that scale in mind, because oneof the things that you're that
you're that is amazing aboutAngkor Wat, is the scale, you're
not just visiting one building,you're visiting a city and one
(22:05):
of unprecedented size, like ngCorps was the largest city in
the world until the IndustrialRevolution, like a population of
a million people in the MiddleAges. And it's just, wow,
unbelievably large. Hmm. So, forme, you know, getting there is
always half the experience. Andand it really is the case, I
(22:28):
think, to describe Angkor Watappropriately, you have to, you
have to imagine getting therebecause getting there is so
important. We hired what'scalled a remark, which is like
the Cambodian took to travelaround the site. It's such a
massive site, you can't justwalk you've got to have some
kind of vehicle and a remark isa is a small covered carriage
(22:51):
that hooks onto the back of amoped or a motorcycle. So
imagine a two wheeled carriagelike a horse and carriage.
Except this one has like vinylbench seats that are facing one
another like a diner booth thathas no table. And it's open on
the sides with you know armreststhat keep you in and there's a
canopy over top to protect youfrom the really blazing sun. And
(23:11):
the driver is on the front onhis moped and pulling you
around. And so you start yourday really early in the day as
the sun's coming up. And ittakes about 20 minutes to get
from town in you know, onto thesite. And first you travel on a
small highway. There are there'sfarmland on the outskirts of the
(23:31):
city. And then the farmlandbegins to fade away. And the
trees become taller, the canopygrows thicker, and pretty soon
you're in the forest, you knowwhat we often would call a
jungle on this long, quiet road.
And then when you come out ofthe forest, it's because you've
entered this series of enormousdirt parking lots, filled with
(23:53):
buses and rented cars. BecauseAngkor Wat is an incredibly
popular tourist site. And soyour driver drops you off. And
you have a bridge to cross.
Because Angkor Wat is surroundedby a moat. It's a squarish moat
(24:14):
almost square, and in the moatis 600 feet wide. It's about one
and a half kilometers long by1.3 kilometers deep. So the moat
has a perimeter of three and ahalf miles. Again, scale.
Everything is massive Hmm. Andyou cross the bridge and then
(24:38):
you get to this main gate thatserves a very similar purpose as
the Taj Mahal gate. But in thiscase, it's not a giant building.
It's a moderate building, butit's got like corridors that
extend along the front of themoat on either side to the right
and to the left.
But you walk through thisthrough this gate and then
(25:00):
Angkor Wat comes into view. Andyou are inside a courtyard that
is not dissimilar in concept tothe Taj courtyard, this lush
landscape, sometimes it's insome parts, it's kind of
manicured. But mostly it's itsforests. It's this jungle all
around. And the watch the templebefore you really is enormous.
(25:23):
It's the largest singlereligious monument in the world.
So Vatican City, it's four timesas large as Vatican City. It's
the size of 300 football fields,it's enormous. And the temple
design is in Khmer architecture,is based on the idea of a temple
mountain. So these areconcentric near square
(25:46):
galleries, or like corridorshave connected rooms, one inside
the other inside the other. So anear square outer wall, with a
near square gallery inside ofthat, and then another near
square gallery inside of that,and then a perfectly square
gallery right at the heart ofthe building. And each one of
(26:10):
those galleries is built higherthan the last. So what you end
up with is this mountain effectwhere it gets smaller, but
taller, smaller, but taller. Andthat's how it builds up. And
again, it's got these Angkor Wathas four corner towers, and then
one central tower, whichrepresents Mount Meru, the five
(26:33):
peak mountain that's known inHindu and Buddhist cosmology.
And these, these towers wouldhave been really ornate when
they were first built, and theystill look ornate. But of
course, they're severelyweathered. So now what you see
are the layers of block thatbuild the towers, and you get
(26:56):
some idea of the carving that'son them. But But you don't get
the full grantor of when theywere first carved. And
everything in in Angkor Wat isbuilt out of sandstone and
laterite. Both materials havethis, this kind of rusty red,
this dusty, Rusty red color. Andeverything is built out of this.
(27:19):
It's in some cases, it's reallydark and weathered. So it's
blackened in some spots. Sothese towers, you know, on four
corners with the largest towerin the middle. So imagine a tall
woolly hat that comes to agentle point. But this is like a
chunky cable knit hat, not areally fine woven hat and chunky
(27:42):
cable knit hat. And that's kindof what these the tops of these
towers look like. Because it'schunky, everything's weathered.
Everything's knobbly. And whenyou get really, really close,
then you can start to see thatthere are carvings of deities in
their carvings of kings inthere. Maybe only partial, maybe
(28:06):
parts of them are broken away.
But it's still nobly becausethere are all these platforms
and places for these carvings tohave once been on now they're
just all weathered. You can seeevery block in the structure,
every block of sandstone everyblock of ladder, right. It's
kind of like a giant Legostructure. You can discern all
(28:29):
of those different blocks. Youcan feel them they feel like
they are they they are juststacked one on top of the other.
Christine Malec (28:41):
So when you say galleries are they connected at
the top at all
JJ Hunt (28:46):
The galleries are like, like square hallways, right. And
so sometimes it's like one roomlinking to another room linking
to another room, there's no,there's no other separate
corridor, the rooms themselvesform the corridors, and then you
would go you pass through them.
So either you're gonna walkaround in a square, or you
(29:08):
decide I'm just going to passright through and get to the
middle and if you pass rightthrough, you get to a courtyard
area inside. And then to get tothe next hallway or gallery,
you're gonna have to climb a fewsteps. That's how they're raised
his yard inside, and then a fewsteps and then a courtyard
inside and then a few steps andthat's how you get higher and
(29:30):
higher. these are these arecovered corridors covered
galleries. And in mostWashington say most in some
cases, the you know, they arestill covered, like the roof is
intact in some spots is not somespots, it's caved in and it's so
big, that some areas they willhave focused there are some
areas they have focused theirrestoration efforts in some
(29:52):
areas have kind of left it. Sowhat you're left with is a pile
of these amazing blocks. Arethese, you know, huge carved
blocks. And I mean, my kidsloved it because it was totally
open you you, in some cases wereencouraged to explore. And so
you could get, you could climball over some areas and you
(30:16):
could explore and feel wallsand, and get lost in the sea in
Angkor Wat it's a massivestructure. You know, it's super
organized, right?
Christine Malec (30:31):
Yeah,
JJ Hunt (30:33):
You would think it's easy to get around, right?
You're either going through themiddle and cutting across these
hallways, or you're walkingaround in a square, and you'll
come back to the same place. Butit's so massive, that it's
really easy to lose track ofwhere you are. So the way we
explored it was to, to get lost,we broke up into into pairs, and
we're like, okay, one parent,one kid, go get lost in one
(30:56):
direction, one parent, one kidget lost in the other direction.
And we'll try and find eachother by the end of the day.
Like, really a great place toexplore.
Christine Malec (31:04):
We so before we started recording, JJ, you were
saying that you talked to yourpartner and your kids about this
last night and said, What do youthink is worth describing? So
what did they have to say aboutthat
JJ Hunt (31:16):
It was interesting. S Lois, my wife, she said the ap
roach. The approach was so ke. Coming into the site, in in t
e remark and no matter where yu were going in an Corps, you a
e guaranteed to pass a dozen oher temples in various states o
(31:37):
Ruin, that you will Oh, we sould stop there. Or what about t
at we should stop there. It's lke the bounty of ruins and r
ches. That was for her what se really thought we should d
scribe, we should we should tlk about my youngest. For him, i
was this idea of getting lst, like being in a space that l
(31:59):
ke, you know, they talked aout it being like Indiana J
nes, right, like, you're in tese ruins and you can explore a
d you can get Lin you can find drk corners and and then you'll f
nd a half like a sculpture or, oa deity that is still being w
rshiped at. So there'll be a dity and there'll be the, you k
(32:20):
ow, a bowl with incense sticks ad people bringing fresh fruit a
d leaving it there. It's just ithe middle of this gallery t
at you didn't it's not a focal pint. It's just there. So he l
ked the exploring and getting lst idea. And then my teenager, o
course, he said, Oh, you rally have to describe the i
(32:40):
formation plaques dad, because tey always made fun of us for s
opping every single iflammation plaque. He's a teena
er, I mentioned that, right?
Christine Malec (32:50):
You did. Yeah,
JJ Hunt (32:51):
Yeah.
Christine Malec (32:54):
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touch with us. Our email addressis talk description to
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can follow us on Twitter at talkdescription.
Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashtag in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:46):
The idea for today's episode came from our
live event last December andthere was a huge interest in
talking about some of thewonders of the world. And it
being Spring, and experiencing acertain amount of restlessness
thinking about travel, wethought we would focus on three
today. And so we're going totalk about - I'll just give the
(01:09):
spoilers now - we're going totalk about Niagara Falls, the
Taj Mahal, and the temple ofAngkor Wat. Part of the reason I
wanted to name all three of themin one sentence is because JJ,
you've been to them all, whichis absolutely awesome. So we're
gonna start with Niagara Falls.
And it's funny because in theevent, a few of us, myself
included, said, okay, it'sembarrassing to admit it kind of
(01:32):
like, you know, jazz hands orsomething. But I don't actually
have the big picture of NiagaraFalls. And I always act like I
do, but the truth is, that Idon't, so we're gonna we're
going to tackle Niagara Falls,but we're not going over in a
barrel, we're just where shouldwe start?
JJ Hunt (01:49):
So Niagara Falls is actually three distinct
waterfalls, there's theHorseshoe Falls on the Niagara
Falls, Ontario side, that's theCanadian side. And then the
American falls and the BridalVeil Falls, which are side by
side, on the Niagara Falls, NewYork side. But really all of
them are best viewed from theCanadian side. So that's where
(02:11):
I've visited, that's been mypoint of view in the past. If
you look at a satellite image, Iwent to Google satellite images
so that I could get a solidunderstanding of the geography.
And there's a relatively narrowstrip of land that separates two
Great Lakes, Lake Erie in theSouth, and Lake Ontario in the
(02:33):
north. The Niagara Riverconnects those two lakes
bisecting that strip of land andthe from the satellite images,
it's pretty clear, you can seethat lake, pardon me that river,
connecting the two lakes, andthat's the border. So on the
east side of the Niagara Riveris the US, New York State. On
(02:56):
the west side is Canada, theprovince of Ontario. And the way
that that river, the NiagaraRiver travels, it actually
splits into two to go around alarge island that's on the US
side. And then when it comesback together, it's quite wide
and fairly powerful. You've gotthis split, it come back
(03:18):
together, it's wide, it'spowerful. And then it narrows
again, and comes to a verysignificant drop in the
landscape. This drop is anywherefrom 70 to 190 feet, that's
about like 20 to 60 meters,those are the falls. And right
at that drop in the landscape,there are a few more islands.
(03:39):
And so some of the water, justbefore it goes over the drop,
cuts to the right. And that's asmaller channel that leads to
the lower drop off of theAmerican falls. But most of the
water cuts to the left of theselast little islands. This is the
much higher much more dramaticHorseshoe Falls. And what's
(04:01):
interesting about the HorseshoeFalls is that the land has
eroded into a very distinctivehorseshoe shape or a U shape the
water in this distinctivehorseshoe or U shape instead of
just falling over a straightedge like it does in most
waterfalls. It falls over all ofthe sides of this U shape and
(04:24):
it's really significant. It's somuch large, the edge of the
waterfall is so much largerbecause of this shape. The
actual the mouth of the river atthis point is only about 1000
feet wide. But because of theway this U shaped cuts into the
land, you end up with 2700 feetof curved waterfall. It's so
(04:50):
much more dramatic because ofthe shape. A lot of water
pouring in. You can imaginewater pouring into a sink
rushing over the edges. Butinstead of just rushing over one
surface, it's rushing over onthree sides, this U shape. So
it's really that's why theHorseshoe Falls are so very
dramatic. So the water that'srushing over creates this very
(05:14):
smooth lip. And it's a neverending stream of water. So the
water comes over in sheets, aperpetual sheet. It just rolls
along the top, rolls over thatover the lip, and then comes
pounding down to the riverbelow. And that's how the water
(05:38):
travels right over the edgerolls over the lip crashes down
below. But it's it's the amountof water because of this U
shape. And it's the power withwhich it hits the the river
below is extremely dramatic. Themist is everywhere. This is a
(05:59):
roaring sound, it's incrediblypowerful.
Christine Malec (06:04):
As a spectator, where the best place to view
this from? Where's the popularviewing spot?
JJ Hunt (06:11):
So on the Canadian side, there's a footpath that's
all along the Niagara River andit extends a fair distance kind
of before and after the falls.
So you can kind of go before thefalls and watch and watch the
water approach. Or you can movea distance from the falls and
you can and then you can take inthe falls from a distance and
therefore see the whole thing alittle bit better. This footpath
(06:33):
is beside a major road. And onthe on the footpath, there's an
old stone wall that's maybewaist high, that's right along
the edge. And you know, afterthe falls, there's a fairly
steep drop off on the far sideof that waist high stone wall.
And in normal times this trailis footpath is packed with
(06:54):
tourists, like there's tons andtons of people, people sitting
on the wall leaning over to takepictures and whatnot. And so
this path comes very close tothe edge of the falls if you
want to position yourself it'sit's a it's a crowd, you kind of
have to wait your turn to getright to the edge. But you can
(07:14):
get yourself up to what feelslike only a few feet away from
the rushing edge of thewaterfall so you can get right
up there and experience theprecipice where the water rushes
over the edge. And then again,because it curves in it's
indented as you say. You can youcan feel surrounded by this
(07:39):
water even though you're not inthe middle of it. There's
something about the way itcurves around. It makes the
sound travel in a particularway. It makes the mist rise up
and gather in at the bottom inthe where all the waters
crashing down into the riverbelow. The mist that comes up
from there is really dramatic.
(07:59):
And I think it's because of thishorseshoe shape.
Christine Malec (08:03):
Let's move on to something a little less
natural, but equally grant theTaj Mahal I have zero sense of
what this looks like. So divein.
JJ Hunt (08:14):
Awesome. Okay, so it was a long time ago that I was
there I visited in my like,serious backpacking days in the
late 90s. So I don't remembermuch of the detail. So my
descriptions are based on imagesearches YouTube videos, and a
little bit of my memory. So theTaj Mahal is an ivory white
(08:34):
mausoleum. It's in the city ofAgra, which is just south of New
Delhi in northern India. And itwas commissioned in 1632 by the
Emperor Shah Jahan to house histhe body of his favorite wife,
Mumtaz Mahal. It's amazingbecause it's a piece of
architecture that seems to beaware of its own beauty. It was
(08:55):
built to be viewed from certainangles. It's so everything about
the Taj Mahal is brilliantlyplanned and brilliantly
executed. The landscape, thebackdrop, the approach, it
really is an architecturalmasterpiece. So the best way to
approach is through what theycall the great gate and the
(09:15):
great gate really is amasterpiece in its own right. It
is red sandstone with some whitemarble inlay. It's about 93 feet
tall. It's a gate with an openpassage through the center, but
it's also a building. It'sactually square with turrets on
each corner, so it's kind of gota castle like layout. And it's
(09:37):
symmetrical with two stories oflarge arches on either side of
the giant arch in the middle,and these arches all have
pointed tips, as if someone tookthe top and kind of the And
pinched them up very graceful.
It's a hint of the fanciful.
What this building does thisgate does is it blocks your view
(09:57):
of the Taj Mahal. So when you'restanding on the far side or on
the near side of the wall ofthis gate, I guess, and you're
approaching, you can't see theTaj Mahal behind it. And as you
walk into this giant archway,which is kind of carved out of
the inside of this gatebuilding, like if you took
(10:18):
imagine like a solid sandcastle, and then you scooped out
the entranceway, that's whatit's like, as you walk into this
giant archway, there are aseries of arches inside the
archway, and then right at thecenter at the bottom ground
level, there's an open archwaywith no closed door. And it also
(10:39):
has that pointed tip, and it'svery, very dark in there. And so
what you see is the light on thefar side, and as you walk
through this gateway, the TajMahal starts to come into view.
First, what you see through yourarchway is the arch of the Taj
Mahal, and it's perfectly inline with the main gate arch so
(11:00):
one door leads directly to theother. And then as you go
further through the your arch,the gate arch, then you get to
see the rest of the mainbuilding of the Taj Mahal, with
its bulb shaped dome in thecenter, flanked by two smaller
domes, then you keep goingthrough and then you see the
(11:20):
four minarets on the platform ofthe Taj Mahal, to at the front
corners to at the back. And thenyou exit this gate, and you find
yourself in this wide opengarden with green lawns. This
distant row of trees between youand the Taj Mahal, that it's cut
this this tree line is cut, sothat it frames the Taj Mahal it
(11:42):
breaks so that the Taj can standbetween these, you know, these
two rows of trees. There's along rectangular reflecting pool
that leads from the gatestraight to the base of the
mausoleum. And the exterior ofthe Taj Mahal is all white
marble. Everything is whitemarble, and so it has the effect
(12:03):
of making it look, solid marbleis solid, heavy material, but
it's also delicate, it's purewhite, so it's very solid and
yet delicate at the same time.
And the architecture, thelandscaping choices, they create
optical illusions, and everyelement of the design of this
space is used to absolutemaximum effect. So for example,
(12:24):
the minarets, there are four oneat each corner of the platform
on which the Taj Mahal stands.
Each one is about 40 metrestall. They're tapered, and
they're topped with open archedlookouts, and then a thin
ornamental finial at the top.
And an element of perspective isthat things that are far away
(12:45):
appear smaller than things thatare close to us. And so the two
minarets at the rear cornersappear smaller and closer
together than the two minaretsat the front. And what this does
when you take in the Taj Mahalfrom this gate, you can see the
elegant symmetry of the Taj andthese and these minarets, so the
(13:06):
outside corners have the tallestminarets and they're tapered,
tapered, minarets make them looktall and straight. In fact,
they're actually pointedoutwards to compensate for
another optical illusion, whichwould have them looking like
they were falling in. So they'retaking everything into account.
(13:27):
And then when you move from theoutside toward the center, you
have the you have the tallestminarets, what seemed like the
tallest minarets on the outside,and then what seemed like
smaller minarets on the inside.
And then in the center is themausoleum with its symmetrical
(13:48):
arches, the small corner domesflanking the large bulb bulb
dome in the middle, beautifullysymmetrical and designed to be
taken in from this oneperspective. It's it's really
remarkable architecture anddesign. And the other thing
that's amazing about this is itit's been built with nothing
(14:08):
behind it. There are nobuildings, there's no large
trees, there's nothing behind itbut wide open sky. And so it is
set off against whatever the skylooks like. If it's a beautiful
blue sky. If it's sunset of itssunrise, you've got pinks and
purples or yellows in the sky,even if it's cloudy, whatever it
(14:30):
is, it's a backdrop to thiswhite marble structure with the
minarets at the corners. It's Itis designed in such a way to be
presented to you to to whoever'staking it in, and then when you
get closer, then you can startto see some of the detail work
that they've done on it. So themarble that has, you know, that
(14:52):
the entire building is made outof is is carved, intricately
carved. So there are carvedvines and floral patterns around
the arches. There's red floralinlay on the plinth and coffins
inside. That densely packed withstraight lines and curved
strokes, right that all of thecarvings and some of its full
(15:13):
relief and some of its just inlace, that's when you know,
there's two materials, onematerial laid into the other all
marble, there's a lot of Islamiccalligraphy carved into the
facade. And again, this reallyinteresting thing they do with
the architects and designers didwith perspective. So you've got
(15:34):
this calligraphy on either sideof the of the doors, if you're
standing right at the arches,and you're looking at this
calligraphy, it's two stories upthat these, you know these
arches, so the calligraphy thatgoes all the way up the side of
the building, the front of thebuilding, it would be smaller at
(15:55):
the top than it is at thebottom, because it's farther
away. In order to compensate forthat they actually made the
inlaid calligraphy at the top,larger than the calligraphy at
the bottom. So when you'restanding and looking straight up
at this, at this calligraphy, itactually looks uniform, it looks
(16:16):
like it's all the same size.
This is the kind of attention todetail, that the designers and
artists that made this buildingput into it. So yes, from from a
distance, it's all about theshape. And then when you get
close up, it's all about thesecarved details.
Christine Malec (16:35):
So the the sort of tricks of perspective, and
architecture, what do they do toyour eye in mind? Is it
confusing? Or is there a oneoverall effect? Or is it a
series of many effects? Like Idon't, it's hard. That's a
really abstract one for, for tounderstand. So what's the effect
(16:55):
of those those tricks.
JJ Hunt (16:56):
So there are a couple of effects. I mean, some of them
I can explain. And some of themI can write like the first of
all, you arrive and your eye istold where to look all of these,
like these, the reflecting poolthat leads straight to the to
the Taj, the rows of conicalshrubs that leads straight
(17:17):
there, your eyes told where tolook. So some of the illusions
are just about pulling your eye,then there's a really
interesting thing. And I don'tknow how to explain this. But
when you approach when you thenwalk toward the Taj Mahal, it
starts off looking quite large.
And then as you get closer andcloser and closer, you would
expect it to look larger, but infact, it starts to look smaller.
(17:39):
Oh, I don't know how that'sdone. So really does mess with
you. And then there are elementsof it that I again, I don't I
don't understand, like the factthat the minarets at the corners
are actually pointing outwards.
(18:00):
You can't see that like that.
That's, I intellectuallyunderstand I've read that in
several from several reliablesources. But it's really hard to
take a picture of becausethey've done such a good it's an
illusion that they are they aretapered in such a way that they
look like they're straight,because you're the human eye
wants to imagine them leaninginward. And by tapering them
(18:21):
out. It makes them lookstraight. I don't.
Christine Malec (18:27):
But what's the point of that one? What's the
point of that one?
JJ Hunt (18:30):
Well, there were two one point was for safety, so
that if there was an earthquakein the minarets fell, they will
fall away from the mainbuilding. Oh, but the other side
of it is the designers didn'twant it to look like they were
pointing in, that would disruptthe perfection. They wanted them
to look straight. And so theonly way to get them to look
(18:50):
straight was to compensate forthis thing that the I did, which
is make it look like they wereall leaning in. So instead, they
made them actually lean out sothat they look straight, drippy.
And that's I think why this is awonder of the world. It's not
just because it's a beautifulbuilding. There's something
(19:10):
about the perfection of thedesign, and the attention to
detail and the framing of it.
And all of that, I think is whatmakes it a wonder of the world.
Christine Malec (19:23):
That's wild.
Are there any elements fromthere that show up in Angkor
Wat?
JJ Hunt (19:27):
Yeah, quite a few acts.
I mean, the approach very muchtakes that into account. There's
kind of some of the basic layoutand design with Angkor Wat with
the the corner towers and thenthe one tower in the middle.
Christine Malec (19:42):
That's Cambodia. Right. So completely
different.
JJ Hunt (19:45):
Totally different totally. Well, I mean, not that
totally different. They werestill there was a lot of you
know, Buddhist influence andIndia had very strong influence
in Southeast Asia. At that time.
the ruin of Angkor Wat looksdry. radically different than
the than the beauty the whitemarble the perfection, because
it's made, it's been maintainedand core was founded in 802, the
(20:08):
city of Ann core,
Christine Malec (20:13):
what was your experience of visiting there?
What's it like to be a touristthere?
JJ Hunt (20:16):
I was in Southeast Asia exactly a year ago just before
COVID went global. And we were,we visited Angkor for three
days. And honestly, it was oneof the highlights of my travel
life. So the anchor was thecapital city of the Khmer
Empire, again, founded 802. Andthe ruins are located near cm
(20:40):
rip, which is a in an areathat's largely forest and
farmland. And of course, youknow, most of us, we think of
Angkor Wat, we think of the onetemple, which is like a 12th
century temple. But ng corps asa city, as a complex is
infinitely more than just theone temple right, the site that
(21:04):
Angkor Wat is on is massive, 400square kilometers, like it's
comparable in size to modern dayLos Angeles. And there are like,
there are over 1000 temples onthis site that range from piles
of ancient rubble that are halfburied in the forest with trees
(21:25):
growing over them the roots oflike, you know, 200 year old
trees that are, you know,surrounding these crumbling
walls. And then there are othertemples that are significantly
restored, like Angkor Wat, whichis more restored. Obviously, I
can't possibly describe theentire site, frankly, even
(21:45):
trying to describe all of AngkorWat is way beyond the amount of
time that we've got today. Butit's important, I think, to keep
that scale in mind, because oneof the things that you're that
you're that is amazing aboutAngkor Wat, is the scale, you're
not just visiting one building,you're visiting a city and one
(22:05):
of unprecedented size, like ngCorps was the largest city in
the world until the IndustrialRevolution, like a population of
a million people in the MiddleAges. And it's just, wow,
unbelievably large. Hmm. So, forme, you know, getting there is
always half the experience. Andand it really is the case, I
(22:28):
think, to describe Angkor Watappropriately, you have to, you
have to imagine getting therebecause getting there is so
important. We hired what'scalled a remark, which is like
the Cambodian took to travelaround the site. It's such a
massive site, you can't justwalk you've got to have some
kind of vehicle and a remark isa is a small covered carriage
(22:51):
that hooks onto the back of amoped or a motorcycle. So
imagine a two wheeled carriagelike a horse and carriage.
Except this one has like vinylbench seats that are facing one
another like a diner booth thathas no table. And it's open on
the sides with you know armreststhat keep you in and there's a
canopy over top to protect youfrom the really blazing sun. And
(23:11):
the driver is on the front onhis moped and pulling you
around. And so you start yourday really early in the day as
the sun's coming up. And ittakes about 20 minutes to get
from town in you know, onto thesite. And first you travel on a
small highway. There are there'sfarmland on the outskirts of the
(23:31):
city. And then the farmlandbegins to fade away. And the
trees become taller, the canopygrows thicker, and pretty soon
you're in the forest, you knowwhat we often would call a
jungle on this long, quiet road.
And then when you come out ofthe forest, it's because you've
entered this series of enormousdirt parking lots, filled with
(23:53):
buses and rented cars. BecauseAngkor Wat is an incredibly
popular tourist site. And soyour driver drops you off. And
you have a bridge to cross.
Because Angkor Wat is surroundedby a moat. It's a squarish moat
(24:14):
almost square, and in the moatis 600 feet wide. It's about one
and a half kilometers long by1.3 kilometers deep. So the moat
has a perimeter of three and ahalf miles. Again, scale.
Everything is massive Hmm. Andyou cross the bridge and then
(24:38):
you get to this main gate thatserves a very similar purpose as
the Taj Mahal gate. But in thiscase, it's not a giant building.
It's a moderate building, butit's got like corridors that
extend along the front of themoat on either side to the right
and to the left.
But you walk through thisthrough this gate and then
(25:00):
Angkor Wat comes into view. Andyou are inside a courtyard that
is not dissimilar in concept tothe Taj courtyard, this lush
landscape, sometimes it's insome parts, it's kind of
manicured. But mostly it's itsforests. It's this jungle all
around. And the watch the templebefore you really is enormous.
(25:23):
It's the largest singlereligious monument in the world.
So Vatican City, it's four timesas large as Vatican City. It's
the size of 300 football fields,it's enormous. And the temple
design is in Khmer architecture,is based on the idea of a temple
mountain. So these areconcentric near square
(25:46):
galleries, or like corridorshave connected rooms, one inside
the other inside the other. So anear square outer wall, with a
near square gallery inside ofthat, and then another near
square gallery inside of that,and then a perfectly square
gallery right at the heart ofthe building. And each one of
(26:10):
those galleries is built higherthan the last. So what you end
up with is this mountain effectwhere it gets smaller, but
taller, smaller, but taller. Andthat's how it builds up. And
again, it's got these Angkor Wathas four corner towers, and then
one central tower, whichrepresents Mount Meru, the five
(26:33):
peak mountain that's known inHindu and Buddhist cosmology.
And these, these towers wouldhave been really ornate when
they were first built, and theystill look ornate. But of
course, they're severelyweathered. So now what you see
are the layers of block thatbuild the towers, and you get
(26:56):
some idea of the carving that'son them. But But you don't get
the full grantor of when theywere first carved. And
everything in in Angkor Wat isbuilt out of sandstone and
laterite. Both materials havethis, this kind of rusty red,
this dusty, Rusty red color. Andeverything is built out of this.
(27:19):
It's in some cases, it's reallydark and weathered. So it's
blackened in some spots. Sothese towers, you know, on four
corners with the largest towerin the middle. So imagine a tall
woolly hat that comes to agentle point. But this is like a
chunky cable knit hat, not areally fine woven hat and chunky
(27:42):
cable knit hat. And that's kindof what these the tops of these
towers look like. Because it'schunky, everything's weathered.
Everything's knobbly. And whenyou get really, really close,
then you can start to see thatthere are carvings of deities in
their carvings of kings inthere. Maybe only partial, maybe
(28:06):
parts of them are broken away.
But it's still nobly becausethere are all these platforms
and places for these carvings tohave once been on now they're
just all weathered. You can seeevery block in the structure,
every block of sandstone everyblock of ladder, right. It's
kind of like a giant Legostructure. You can discern all
(28:29):
of those different blocks. Youcan feel them they feel like
they are they they are juststacked one on top of the other.
Christine Malec (28:41):
So when you say galleries are they connected at
the top at all
JJ Hunt (28:46):
The galleries are like, like square hallways, right. And
so sometimes it's like one roomlinking to another room linking
to another room, there's no,there's no other separate
corridor, the rooms themselvesform the corridors, and then you
would go you pass through them.
So either you're gonna walkaround in a square, or you
(29:08):
decide I'm just going to passright through and get to the
middle and if you pass rightthrough, you get to a courtyard
area inside. And then to get tothe next hallway or gallery,
you're gonna have to climb a fewsteps. That's how they're raised
his yard inside, and then a fewsteps and then a courtyard
inside and then a few steps andthat's how you get higher and
(29:30):
higher. these are these arecovered corridors covered
galleries. And in mostWashington say most in some
cases, the you know, they arestill covered, like the roof is
intact in some spots is not somespots, it's caved in and it's so
big, that some areas they willhave focused there are some
areas they have focused theirrestoration efforts in some
(29:52):
areas have kind of left it. Sowhat you're left with is a pile
of these amazing blocks. Arethese, you know, huge carved
blocks. And I mean, my kidsloved it because it was totally
open you you, in some cases wereencouraged to explore. And so
you could get, you could climball over some areas and you
(30:16):
could explore and feel wallsand, and get lost in the sea in
Angkor Wat it's a massivestructure. You know, it's super
organized, right?
Christine Malec (30:31):
Yeah,
JJ Hunt (30:33):
You would think it's easy to get around, right?
You're either going through themiddle and cutting across these
hallways, or you're walkingaround in a square, and you'll
come back to the same place. Butit's so massive, that it's
really easy to lose track ofwhere you are. So the way we
explored it was to, to get lost,we broke up into into pairs, and
we're like, okay, one parent,one kid, go get lost in one
(30:56):
direction, one parent, one kidget lost in the other direction.
And we'll try and find eachother by the end of the day.
Like, really a great place toexplore.
Christine Malec (31:04):
We so before we started recording, JJ, you were
saying that you talked to yourpartner and your kids about this
last night and said, What do youthink is worth describing? So
what did they have to say aboutthat
JJ Hunt (31:16):
It was interesting. S Lois, my wife, she said the ap
roach. The approach was so ke. Coming into the site, in in t
e remark and no matter where yu were going in an Corps, you a
e guaranteed to pass a dozen oher temples in various states o
(31:37):
Ruin, that you will Oh, we sould stop there. Or what about t
at we should stop there. It's lke the bounty of ruins and r
ches. That was for her what se really thought we should d
scribe, we should we should tlk about my youngest. For him, i
was this idea of getting lst, like being in a space that l
(31:59):
ke, you know, they talked aout it being like Indiana J
nes, right, like, you're in tese ruins and you can explore a
d you can get Lin you can find drk corners and and then you'll f
nd a half like a sculpture or, oa deity that is still being w
rshiped at. So there'll be a dity and there'll be the, you k
(32:20):
ow, a bowl with incense sticks ad people bringing fresh fruit a
d leaving it there. It's just ithe middle of this gallery t
at you didn't it's not a focal pint. It's just there. So he l
ked the exploring and getting lst idea. And then my teenager, o
course, he said, Oh, you rally have to describe the i
(32:40):
formation plaques dad, because tey always made fun of us for s
opping every single iflammation plaque. He's a teena
er, I mentioned that, right?
Christine Malec (32:50):
You did. Yeah,
JJ Hunt (32:51):
Yeah.
Christine Malec (32:54):
We hope you're loving the show. We really enjoy
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That's where you come in, helpspread the word. Maybe send a
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(33:17):
you think might like it, or showyour love by becoming a patron.
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(33:38):
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