June 19, 2021 • 32 mins
Toppling a statue is a powerful, emotional and symbolic act. Often celebratory, sometimes angry and vengeful, the removal of a statue -- whether by lawful means or mob rule -- is an event rife with potent and dramatic visuals. In this episode, Christine asks JJ how statues are brought down, and what it looks like when they fall.
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Episode Transcript
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JJ Hunt (00:04):
Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashed-out in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
Now, we've given some content warnings in
the past, but this one is isunique and textured because
we're going to be talking todayabout statues. And they're the
bringing down of statues inpublic places. And so the reason
that it's complex to frame thisis that the dismantling of a
(01:12):
statue often has a celebratoryfeel, and is often a good thing
seen as a good mark of socialchange. But the truth is, it is
a symbolically violent act, itis a kind of Van revengeful act
that is not purely happy. Sowe're approaching this topic
(01:36):
from a bit of a sense of fun,and trying to get at the visuals
of what for me at least has beena completely mysterious process.
So the last year has seen a lotof this. And so we just want to
say that even though we may seemlight hearted in our approach,
or our reactions, we're clear,we're as clear as we can be that
(02:01):
this is, in many ways, not alaughing matter. And it's a bit
like the kind of laughter thatcan happen after a funeral or,
or a traumatic event where lot,being able to laugh at something
is a way of taking a deep breathafter something traumatic. So no
disrespect in any way is meanttowards the process involved and
(02:24):
people who have suffered genuineharm from the the people or the
monuments under discussion.
However, there does kind of comea moment where in the public
consciousness, we take powerback. And one of the ways we do
that is to laugh at somethingwhen it's appropriate. So this
got started for me by somethingthat happened in Toronto
(02:48):
recently, which is where JJ andI both live. And it was the
dismantling of a statue ofEdgerton Ryerson, who was a
historic figure in Canada. He'sthe founder of university and he
was instrumental in thebeginnings of the residential
school system, which was anappalling part of of the
(03:09):
Canadian story. And so hisstatue came down. And it's a,
it's a story of what happenedsince as well. But it got me
thinking about how I don'treally get how a statue is, is
is brought down. And I don'tknow what they're made of. And I
feel like that's kind of anemblematic visual in the world
(03:29):
that when a regime or a tyrantor the someone who was honored
is no longer honored. There's avery much a symbolism and a
theater to how that changehappens in the public mind. And
so I wanted us to talk aboutthat. And JJ, you are you're
(03:49):
totally on board.
JJ Hunt (03:52):
Yeah, for sure. And you're absolutely right. These
statues are symbols, right.
They're symbols when they wereerected. They are symbols as
they stand, and they are symbolswhen they come down. So it's not
surprising that there are somewild and dramatic visuals that
are associated with thosemoments when the statues are
being felled. And, you know, Ithink as we're talking about
(04:13):
this, as we're describing this,we're going to try largely to
steer clear of the politics ofthese moments and stick to
describing the visuals. That's,that's why we're here. But
there's going to be somebackground information that will
be necessary. So some of thepolitics are unavoidable. But
you know, we're going to try notto linger on that. And just to
reiterate your your warning,Chris. I'm not going to be
(04:36):
describing moments of actualgore or bloodshed. But you are
absolutely right, that there isa violence embodied in many of
these statues, and the storiesbehind them, but there's also a
violence in the way thesestatues are pulled down. That
might be disturbing as well. Soeven though we're not going to
(04:57):
be describing moments ofphysical gore and bloodshed.
Some of these descriptions mightbe disturbing in and of
themselves.
Christine Malec (05:07):
I was following the protest that was happening
near Ryerson statue and thingswere just fine and people were
there as a kind of visual or aprotest, and then quite a bit
later in the evening, there wasthe Ryerson statue has been
toppled and has been sent intoLake Ontario. And I was quite
(05:27):
shocked. I'm, I'm not sure.
Actually, JJ have we had astatue toppling in Toronto
before? And what is so what Iwanted to know was, What did it
look like? How did they do it?
They didn't just spontaneous a123 shove, like surely that's
not enough to topple a statue?
JJ Hunt (05:43):
So this statue was in downtown Toronto, right at
Ryerson University. TheUniversity that bears Egerton
Ryerson name is right downtownand this statue which has been
under threat for a number ofyears, there have been a number
of groups that have you know,very loudly shouted that they
want this statue down. It hasbeen the focus of attention it
(06:06):
has been the focus of protest.
And when the mass gravecontaining the remains of the
215 residential school childrenwas discovered in late May, this
statue became the focus of moreprotests, it was covered in
graffiti. So just a little bitof visual background here. The
statue itself is a larger thanlife statue. It's a metal with a
(06:30):
green patina. I'm not sure ifit's bronze, or copper or even
zinc, but it's a metal with agreen patina. So it looks like a
green statue. And Ryerson, theman is standing atop of this
pedestal, the pedestal is alsometal. And he's about 10 feet
off the ground facing thestreet, backed by a wall of IV.
Ryan's right hand his extendedpalm up and open. In his left
(06:55):
hand, there's a book and he'swearing what I believe is like
an open academic robe, which isdraped over his arms. So that's
what the statue normally lookslike. And then it got covered
with graffiti, and it wassevere. So the pedestal was
covered in spray paintedphrases, the phrases were
covering the wall behind him thestreet in front of them the
(07:15):
curb, if there were phrases like"dig them up", "215",
"genocide", "go home", all over.
And then the side of the head ofthe statue was covered in a
thick red paint which wasdripping down onto his chest
(07:35):
dripping down onto the pedestal,it looked like the statue was
maybe hit with a with a can offull open can of paint. And then
as the week went on, dozens ofpairs of children's shoes had
been placed at the base of thepedestal. This was like we
discussed that this memorial tothe children all around the
statue. And then last week, inthe videos that I saw, it looked
(08:02):
relatively calm. There werethese protests around there were
gatherings around the statue.
And people started to film inthe videos that I've seen again,
a relatively common subduedprotest, where a single rope was
tied around the neck of thestatue, and the statue was
pulled off of its pedestal. Nowthere was no filming of the of
(08:24):
the individuals who were doingthe polling, but it was it was a
relatively straightforwardpulling off of the pedestal that
the statue tipped forward. Andthe head that it fell off the
metal statue of Ryerson fell offof the metal pedestal, his head
hit the curb with a with ahollow clang. And then it
(08:49):
toppled onto the street on itsside so very much intact, but
broken off at the at the feet.
And it had suffered a little bitof damage when it hit the curb,
but it was a relatively solidpiece of metal. I mean, it was
hollow but but thick enough thatit didn't take too much damage
(09:11):
and then and then it lay in thestreet. on its side. That that
point, the statue was drapedwith a flag. This is a flag
that's well known to manyCanadians who are familiar with
indigenous protest movements.
I'm not confident that I havethe most accurate or appropriate
name for it. But in most newsreports, it's commonly called
the Mohawk Warrior Flag. This isa flag that features the head of
(09:33):
an indigenous man and profile atthe center and it's surrounded
by a golden yellow sun withpointed shafts of light that's
against a red backdrop. So thisflag was draped over this statue
which had you know, the redpaint that was dripping down it
and then had some some scrawledgraffiti on it and then several
(09:55):
pairs of tan lines moccasinswere placed on to the flag
draped statue. And photos weretaken. Some of these photos
appeared in newspapers and on TVand across social media. And
this was all happening in thedaylight. But then when night
fell as you said, Chris, it gotmore violent. Again the group
seemed to be relatively smalland relatively calm. But more
(10:18):
graffiti was scrawled on to thestatue as it was lying on its
side it was rolled down thestreet, it was streaked with
more paint, including somebright pink paint, which I found
oddly disturbing. I'm notentirely sure why something
about the how bright this pinkcolor was against the green
tinted metal and the light wasvery harsh because it was all
(10:41):
light from people cell phoneslike bright it was just
something about it that I foundreally disturbing. And then some
of the protesters, the peoplewho were involved in this scene,
they took hammers, and theywedged the claw parts of the
hammers into the statues necklike chisels, and then they beat
(11:01):
on the on the hammers with withsmall sledge hammers, trying to
use them like a chisel and thenonce they had broken holes in
the sides of the neck, they gota grinder out and they cut the
metal all around the neck, andthey severed the head from the
neck when it was about halfwayoff. And it was just kind of
(11:22):
dangling, frankly kind of like aloose tooth. They took sledge
hammers and they bashed theirhead off of the body. And I saw
a photo of this on the on theCBC News website. Have a photo
of this this head this bashedoff head on the sidewalk and
there are three feet stepping ontop of it. One foot is is
(11:45):
wearing a Birkenstock stylesandal. One of the feet is in a
running shoe, and then one iswearing this furred-top sandal,
a fuzzy furry sandal. And thehead is completely bashed in on
one side there are gaping holesin on that one side what was
bashed the green patina is gone.
(12:09):
So it's a kind of just a rustybrown metal and there are a
drips of orange paint thatstreak this bashed inside and
then on the other side that wasgreen. It's mostly now this
thick red paint that's drippingdown over the statue. And
because of the light this wastaken at night, there were heavy
shadows that cover the from thefrom the statues brow that cover
(12:31):
the eyes. And then you're right.
A few days later, this the headof the statue starts to move
around, it spent some time inLake Ontario. And then a few
days later, the head turned upin news photos 100 kilometers
away on a metal pike. And thiswas on a piece of land in
Caledonia, Ontario, which is thesite of a longtime land battle
(12:52):
between six nations of the GrandRiver and local developers. And
the head now stands on a metalpike with a strip of torn black
electrical tape over its mouth.
Christine Malec (13:07):
Now maybe this is already newly minted urban
legend but I read that the headwent into the lake and just
coincidentally fetched up on thebeach of indigenous land. I
don't even need to comment onthat. But I don't know how I got
there. It but from what Ithought I read was it was by
(13:28):
chance. Now that seemsimprobable. But I like the idea.
I like the legend.
JJ Hunt (13:32):
Yeah, I think there are going to be lots of lots of
stories being told about thehead of Ryerson. And I think
they've offered to pass itaround the people who currently
have it are offering to send itto other indigenous communities
who are having their own landbattles so that this head of
Ryerson can be put on display.
Christine Malec (13:52):
Get in line, get in line.
JJ Hunt (13:54):
Ya, tales will be told.
Christine Malec (13:56):
Oh it's an instant legend. And yeah, that's
very violent the way youdescribe it an eerie looking.
And yet there's a satisfactionthere's a certain satisfaction
there. So this is, you know, ourlocal story of statue toppling,
but there's been much topplingof statues in this past year.
(14:18):
And I think, JJ, you'd beenlooking at some images from the
US.
JJ Hunt (14:22):
Yeah, I read a stat somewhere that 168 Confederate
symbols were removed from acrossthe US in 2020. And all but one
of them were following themurder of George Floyd. So this
was a huge movement followingthe murder of George Floyd. 94
of these symbols, were monumentswere statues. And some of these
(14:44):
were removed in a in a lawfuland organized manner. So city
officials, town officials, stateofficials, whatever listened to
the populace made their owndecisions and and took these
statues down in an organizedway. So typically what that
means cranes and cherry pickersare used, depending on the size
(15:04):
of the statue. So the crane willwill lift a basket with some
workers up to the statue andthey will wrap straps around the
statue. If it's a person on ahorse, they'll put the straps
under the belly of the horse, ifit's an individual, they'll put
straps under the arms, whateveris required, they'll strap this
the statue, and then attachthose straps to a crane. And
(15:26):
then the crane will lift thestatue off of its base l
unbolted or some severed in someway from the base or platform or
whatever, they'll pick it up bythe crane. And then they'll set
it down the lie down usuallyflat on a flatbed truck, strap
it down, and they'll drive away.
And that's usually there's athere's a crowd around or this
media round, sometimes there'scheering sometimes or protest by
(15:49):
both sides. That's what it lookslike when it's official and
organized. But sometimes thesestatues don't get pulled down in
an official and organized way.
Sometimes they get pulled downby mobs of angry people.
Generally speaking, at somepoint, someone climbs up to the
statue with a rope, or a heavyduty strap like a winch strap.
(16:10):
And often a loop is placedaround the head of the statue.
So there's a very practical sideto this, which is that the the
head is what is exposed. And youcan make a loop in advance when
you're on the ground and thenfling it over the head. So
that's easy, and it'll cincharound tight. And so there's
practical reasons for that. Butyou know, I have to think
(16:31):
there's a violent symbolism tolooping a rope around a statues
neck right like, certainly, froma visual standpoint, it is a
very potent image to have a ropeput around the neck of a statue.
And then for the most part, inmost of the videos that I've
seen, most of the footage I'veseen, the pulling down of the
statues is done by members ofthe crowd, not by vehicles. So
(16:55):
it's not like these statues, ifthey're, you know, if they're
modest in size, if they are lifesize, or just a little larger
than life size. A group ofpeople like as if they're
participating in a tug of warwill hold on to the rope or
cable or whatever, and pull,they won't use vehicles, which
is not necessarily what I wouldhave imagined before going
through the footage. So youknow, people hold the rope and
(17:16):
yell "1-2-3 heave!" and they allpull in unison. And sometimes it
only takes a couple of poles toget these things down. Because
this is some interestinghistory, there's some
interesting history to the waythe Confederate statues went up.
So one of the narratives aboutConfederate statues is that
(17:37):
these are important works ofhistorical art that date back to
the Civil War. And that might betrue in some cases. But the fact
is, many of these statues wereactually mass produced a half
century after the war. So theseare, in fact, cheaply built,
they're poorly built. They wereavailable by catalog from
(18:00):
companies that made or ornatelawn ornaments and grave
markers. And I'm not trying tocomment on the politics of these
statues or the movements thatput them up. If you're
interested in that. There's somefantastic reporting on that out
there. But I just want tocomment on the material of the
build. The physical constructionof a lot of these Confederate
(18:21):
statues is that they are cheap,they are poorly made. And what
happens when they get toppledfrom a height. So if they're
standing on a pedestal, andsomeone yells heave and everyone
pulls on the rope, what happensis, they tumble forward, they
hit the ground, and they oftencave in, they get totally
smushed. These are not like big,strong metal statues, they
(18:46):
crumble. And there's a greatexample. There's some videos
online of 1926 Civil Warmonument in Durham, North
Carolina, this was a few yearsback, that the statue was pulled
down. And it's a pretty simplestatue, slightly larger than
life size. It's a standingConfederate soldier wearing a
wide brimmed hat. And this thesoldier has a you know, a musket
(19:10):
in front of him with the butt onthe ground in the in the barrel
of the musket standing straightup parallel to his body. And,
and what happens is there's athere's a group of people,
several people filming the largecheering group of people,
someone climbs a ladder that'sleaning against the back of the
concrete pedestal on which thisstatue stands. So the pedestals
maybe 15 feet off the ground,and a bright yellow winch strap.
(19:36):
So like a it's a flat strap istossed over the head of this
statue and the person gets downoff the ladder. The crowd starts
to pull, you know he he heaveand when the statue tips
forward, it brings a slab of theconcrete base with it so it
doesn't snap at the feet or theankles. It's the the actual top
(19:58):
of the pedestal that comes off.
So the the slab of concretecomes attached to the feet of
the statue, and the statute tipsforward and lands headfirst in a
garden bed. So it lands on dirtnot on concrete and lands in a
garden bed at the base of thepedestal, and it gets crushed
like tinfoil, the weight of theconcrete slab behind it, that
(20:21):
cheap metal, which was probablyzinc, and it's hollow, like a,
like an Easter Bunny, you know?
You get those chocolate EasterBunnies?
Christine Malec (20:31):
Um hum, um hm.
JJ Hunt (20:31):
It's that kind of flimsy and hollow, and it
completely crushes it. So thestatue is doubled over, it's
crushed, it's left completelyunrecognizable, just from
falling down, the head and theneck of the statue are
compressed into the torso.
Christine Malec (20:48):
Gasp!
JJ Hunt (20:48):
The legs are twisted, and they're flattened, they're
completely bent into. So when itlands ultimately lands the slab
is actually facing up. So if thestatue wasn't damaged, it would
be standing straight up. But thestatue is bent completely in
half, and the shoulder isresting on the grass. It's
(21:09):
completely bent. And at thispoint, some people move in some
people, you know, give thestatue the finger a few people
kick and stomp on it and thecrowd starts cheering. Totally
wild, get totally outrageous.
But that's what these statuessome of these statues a large
percentage are like when theycome down. They are cheaply
(21:29):
built and built and they getthey get crushed.
Christine Malec (21:35):
That sounds kind of more satisfying even I
think there'll be a certainsatisfaction Look, it was hollow
all along.
JJ Hunt (21:42):
Exactly. The symbolism certainly works. If you are if
you are in a frame of mind tothink that this was just a
hollow statue all along. Thiswas cheaply built... The
symbolism is there for thetaking.
Christine Malec (21:58):
Can you give some visuals of the crowd
response when it comes down?
Like I get the people are happy.
But can you say a bit more aboutthe expressiveness of that what
it looks like?
JJ Hunt (22:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's obviously it's different in
every situation, but it getsspecifically in this in this. A
lot of the Confederate monumentsthat come down, lots of people
cheering, right, it's a bigcelebratory moment, lots of
cheering, lots of chanting,usually a handful of people rush
in, and they want to kick orthey want to spit, or they want
(22:32):
to, you know, hit it with ahammer or something. There are
those moments. So there'sthere's a funny interplay
between a handful of people whowant to continue the violence
who want to continue the, youknow, who wanted to seek
vengeance, and in the hammer,right, this thing, right. And
then there are some who arewanting to just be part of the
moment in history and are maybecaught up in the moment, and
(22:55):
they are cheering and screamingand applauding. Some people are
laughing, you're right to saythat it's like there's a
celebratory feel there,generally speaking, is
celebration. But that's notalways the case, right? Some of
these things like this, thiswhole scene that I just
described was in the middle ofwhat looked like the middle of
an afternoon, it was bright andsunny and whatnot. I think when
(23:16):
some of these things happenlater at night, if they happen
in direct response to an event,as opposed to just like it is
bloody well, time to get rid ofthis, you know, yeah, that makes
it feel a little more violent,it's a little more fresh. And so
the people who are there aremaybe angrier, and they're
yelling indirectly into eachother's cameras, like someone
(23:40):
will be filming and there'll bekicking the, you know, the
downed monument, the felledmonument, maybe there'll be
cutting off its head that islike, you know, we described
with Ryerson, that's a thingthat often happens. Those are
the moments when it's obviouslyangrier, it's obviously more
violent. And, and there's aclear tension. And often the,
(24:03):
from a visual standpoint, thefact that it's being filmed at
night, with spotlights from cellphones and things like that, it
just adds to the drama and thetension in the videos.
Christine Malec (24:14):
Obviously, dismantling of statues is not a
new is not a new thing. And I'mthinking of Saddam Hussein. And
that was a very big moment thatwas highly publicized was when
his statue came down around herstand. There was maybe a bit of
planning around that.
JJ Hunt (24:31):
Yeah, that was a huge moment. And you're right that
this has been going on forever.
As long as there have beenstatues going up, people have
been tearing them down. That'sbeen since the beginning of
history.
But this is one of the morefamous moments in recent
history, the 2003 topplingtoppling of this 39 foot tall
(24:53):
statue of Saddam Hussein thatwas promoted as the symbolic end
to the Battle of Baghdad. Andthe videos and images that came
out and were shown in in the USand in Canada by CNN and BBC and
whatnot. The way they focusedtheir footage, the way they
(25:15):
focus that, you know, their lenson this event was very
interesting. So now you can goback and you can look at all of
the footage, you aren't justgetting that same seven minute
reel replayed over and overagain. Now you can go back and
look at all the footage and it'spretty interesting. So the first
images and video clips fromthis, this time this moment show
(25:38):
crowds of Iraqi men gathering atthe base of a large cement
pedestal upon which this metalstatue stands and it's a big
statue like as a 39 foot tallthe pedestals probably close to
the same height. And thepedestals you know, maybe as
thick as a as a great Redwoodit's a great big, thick,
(26:00):
concrete looking pedestal. Andin a ladder is set up against
the side of the pedestal. And,and a few men climb up and they
and they take a thick rope andthey loop it around the neck of
the statue, it's a noose andthey throw this rope around the
neck of the statue. And thenthey these men start passing
around a sledge hammer, and theystart chopping away at the
(26:21):
pedestal like they're choppingdown a tree, but it's big, it's
really thick, so they pass thesledgehammer around, they're
hammering away, but they'rebarely chipping it. It's really
solid, they would never ever beable to take this thing down by
hitting it with a sledge hammer.
So then what happens is anAmerican armored Recovery
Vehicle -- basically, picture atank, but instead of a big gun
(26:43):
pointing off the front of it,it's got a crane off the front
of it. This armored vehiclerolls through what is clear at
this point to be a relativelysmall crowd of men. So when the
camera pulls back, and you seethis whole square with the
statue standing in it, you cansee in this moment, that it's
not a massive crowd of people.
(27:05):
But the armored vehicle goesright through the middle of it.
And then the camera angleschange and we get back to close
ups and in the close ups thecrowd looks much more...
excitable and engaged and itlooks like a thicker crowd of
people when you're filming fromright in the heart of it. So the
armored vehicle rolls up. Andthe the crane arm is extended
(27:26):
toward the statue. And a few USMarines climb the crane arm and
they basically get themselvesjust about face to face with the
statue of Saddam Hussein. And,and one of them takes an
American flag and drapes it overthe face of the statue. And the
wind is such that it keeps thisflag in place for a few seconds.
(27:49):
It's just completely covered. Soagain, lots of cameras shooting
this moment. You've got SaddamHussein standing there, the
statue's right arm is extendedup toward the sky, very grand
gesture, but he's got anAmerican flag covering his face
and there's a rope around hisneck and the crowd is cheering.
And then, you know, some timegoes by they're trying to figure
(28:12):
out how to get the statue down.
And ultimately what they come upwith is a chain that's wrapped
around the statues neck so notthis rope, not this the the
noose that's put around hisneck, there's no way that would
be effective. They take a chainfrom the armored vehicle, they
wrap that around the statue'sneck, they attach that to the
crane, and then the crowd is allbacked away, the flag is gone.
And the footage, for the mostpart doesn't show the vehicle.
(28:36):
They only show the statue somostly what you get is a close
up of the statue. The chain goestaut, and the statue slowly
begins to tip forward. And evenover the cheering of this
relatively small crowd but youknow, excited crowd you can hear
the metal crunching as thestatue slowly pitches forward.
(28:58):
Now then the left knee on thestatue goes it snaps should
severs and then the right kneesnaps. But somehow the statue
stays more or less upright. It'stipping over but it's still
standing because there areinternal supports beyond the
hollow shell and they keeppulling on this thing and
(29:19):
finally what happens is it tipsforward but it doesn't fall
completely to the ground itremains rooted to the pedestal.
It's basically parallel to theground sticking straight out
from this pedestal but the thearm that was grandly reaching
for the sky is now you knowpointing on an angle down toward
the ground. Ultimately the youknow the armored vehicle pulled
(29:41):
back to yanked it to the ground.
Then the crowd moved in and theycut the head off and they
dragged the head around thecity. All told, it took like two
hours for this to happen and CNNcovered the entire thing. They
had the cameras on the wholetime. And then after they edited
(30:03):
it down into a small tightpackage, and they were very
careful about what they showed,right? Honestly, people teach
entire media classes based onhow this was how this was
presented by mass media. How bigwas the crowd? You know? Well,
if you show a lot of those, youknow, just those those big shots
(30:26):
from far away, you can see thatthe crowd wasn't very big. So
mostly they use tight shots fromwithin the group. How many
people were locals? And how manypeople were medium members and
military high? You know, howmuch time did the media spend
showing the moment of theAmerican flag on the face of the
statue, which really onlyhappened to for a few seconds.
(30:46):
But, you know, according to thefront page newspapers, that was
the image that was everywhere,but it only took a few seconds,
compared to the hours that werespent with the American
military, trying to figure outhow to take this thing down in a
relatively safe manner. It was areally fascinating, both from
just like, how do you get thishonkin statue to come down? And
(31:08):
also how do you film it? How doyou use this on TV? It looked
like the triumphant end of awar. But was that the moment
Was that the end of the war? Obiously that is well beyond o
r scope. What I can say is thatt was really juicy footage
(31:29):
t made for great front page phoos. And like I said at the begi
ning, these statues are powerfulsymbols, whether they're
oing up whether they're left stading or being torn down.
Christine Malec (31:42):
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(32:06):
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Talk description to me with Christine Malec and JJ
Hunt.
Christine Malec (00:29):
Hi, I'm Christine Malec.
JJ Hunt (00:30):
And I'm JJ Hunt. This is talk description to Me where
the visuals of current eventsand the world around us get
hashed-out in description richconversations.
Christine Malec (00:47):
Now, we've given some content warnings in
the past, but this one is isunique and textured because
we're going to be talking todayabout statues. And they're the
bringing down of statues inpublic places. And so the reason
that it's complex to frame thisis that the dismantling of a
(01:12):
statue often has a celebratoryfeel, and is often a good thing
seen as a good mark of socialchange. But the truth is, it is
a symbolically violent act, itis a kind of Van revengeful act
that is not purely happy. Sowe're approaching this topic
(01:36):
from a bit of a sense of fun,and trying to get at the visuals
of what for me at least has beena completely mysterious process.
So the last year has seen a lotof this. And so we just want to
say that even though we may seemlight hearted in our approach,
or our reactions, we're clear,we're as clear as we can be that
(02:01):
this is, in many ways, not alaughing matter. And it's a bit
like the kind of laughter thatcan happen after a funeral or,
or a traumatic event where lot,being able to laugh at something
is a way of taking a deep breathafter something traumatic. So no
disrespect in any way is meanttowards the process involved and
(02:24):
people who have suffered genuineharm from the the people or the
monuments under discussion.
However, there does kind of comea moment where in the public
consciousness, we take powerback. And one of the ways we do
that is to laugh at somethingwhen it's appropriate. So this
got started for me by somethingthat happened in Toronto
(02:48):
recently, which is where JJ andI both live. And it was the
dismantling of a statue ofEdgerton Ryerson, who was a
historic figure in Canada. He'sthe founder of university and he
was instrumental in thebeginnings of the residential
school system, which was anappalling part of of the
(03:09):
Canadian story. And so hisstatue came down. And it's a,
it's a story of what happenedsince as well. But it got me
thinking about how I don'treally get how a statue is, is
is brought down. And I don'tknow what they're made of. And I
feel like that's kind of anemblematic visual in the world
(03:29):
that when a regime or a tyrantor the someone who was honored
is no longer honored. There's avery much a symbolism and a
theater to how that changehappens in the public mind. And
so I wanted us to talk aboutthat. And JJ, you are you're
(03:49):
totally on board.
JJ Hunt (03:52):
Yeah, for sure. And you're absolutely right. These
statues are symbols, right.
They're symbols when they wereerected. They are symbols as
they stand, and they are symbolswhen they come down. So it's not
surprising that there are somewild and dramatic visuals that
are associated with thosemoments when the statues are
being felled. And, you know, Ithink as we're talking about
(04:13):
this, as we're describing this,we're going to try largely to
steer clear of the politics ofthese moments and stick to
describing the visuals. That's,that's why we're here. But
there's going to be somebackground information that will
be necessary. So some of thepolitics are unavoidable. But
you know, we're going to try notto linger on that. And just to
reiterate your your warning,Chris. I'm not going to be
(04:36):
describing moments of actualgore or bloodshed. But you are
absolutely right, that there isa violence embodied in many of
these statues, and the storiesbehind them, but there's also a
violence in the way thesestatues are pulled down. That
might be disturbing as well. Soeven though we're not going to
(04:57):
be describing moments ofphysical gore and bloodshed.
Some of these descriptions mightbe disturbing in and of
themselves.
Christine Malec (05:07):
I was following the protest that was happening
near Ryerson statue and thingswere just fine and people were
there as a kind of visual or aprotest, and then quite a bit
later in the evening, there wasthe Ryerson statue has been
toppled and has been sent intoLake Ontario. And I was quite
(05:27):
shocked. I'm, I'm not sure.
Actually, JJ have we had astatue toppling in Toronto
before? And what is so what Iwanted to know was, What did it
look like? How did they do it?
They didn't just spontaneous a123 shove, like surely that's
not enough to topple a statue?
JJ Hunt (05:43):
So this statue was in downtown Toronto, right at
Ryerson University. TheUniversity that bears Egerton
Ryerson name is right downtownand this statue which has been
under threat for a number ofyears, there have been a number
of groups that have you know,very loudly shouted that they
want this statue down. It hasbeen the focus of attention it
(06:06):
has been the focus of protest.
And when the mass gravecontaining the remains of the
215 residential school childrenwas discovered in late May, this
statue became the focus of moreprotests, it was covered in
graffiti. So just a little bitof visual background here. The
statue itself is a larger thanlife statue. It's a metal with a
(06:30):
green patina. I'm not sure ifit's bronze, or copper or even
zinc, but it's a metal with agreen patina. So it looks like a
green statue. And Ryerson, theman is standing atop of this
pedestal, the pedestal is alsometal. And he's about 10 feet
off the ground facing thestreet, backed by a wall of IV.
Ryan's right hand his extendedpalm up and open. In his left
(06:55):
hand, there's a book and he'swearing what I believe is like
an open academic robe, which isdraped over his arms. So that's
what the statue normally lookslike. And then it got covered
with graffiti, and it wassevere. So the pedestal was
covered in spray paintedphrases, the phrases were
covering the wall behind him thestreet in front of them the
(07:15):
curb, if there were phrases like"dig them up", "215",
"genocide", "go home", all over.
And then the side of the head ofthe statue was covered in a
thick red paint which wasdripping down onto his chest
(07:35):
dripping down onto the pedestal,it looked like the statue was
maybe hit with a with a can offull open can of paint. And then
as the week went on, dozens ofpairs of children's shoes had
been placed at the base of thepedestal. This was like we
discussed that this memorial tothe children all around the
statue. And then last week, inthe videos that I saw, it looked
(08:02):
relatively calm. There werethese protests around there were
gatherings around the statue.
And people started to film inthe videos that I've seen again,
a relatively common subduedprotest, where a single rope was
tied around the neck of thestatue, and the statue was
pulled off of its pedestal. Nowthere was no filming of the of
(08:24):
the individuals who were doingthe polling, but it was it was a
relatively straightforwardpulling off of the pedestal that
the statue tipped forward. Andthe head that it fell off the
metal statue of Ryerson fell offof the metal pedestal, his head
hit the curb with a with ahollow clang. And then it
(08:49):
toppled onto the street on itsside so very much intact, but
broken off at the at the feet.
And it had suffered a little bitof damage when it hit the curb,
but it was a relatively solidpiece of metal. I mean, it was
hollow but but thick enough thatit didn't take too much damage
(09:11):
and then and then it lay in thestreet. on its side. That that
point, the statue was drapedwith a flag. This is a flag
that's well known to manyCanadians who are familiar with
indigenous protest movements.
I'm not confident that I havethe most accurate or appropriate
name for it. But in most newsreports, it's commonly called
the Mohawk Warrior Flag. This isa flag that features the head of
(09:33):
an indigenous man and profile atthe center and it's surrounded
by a golden yellow sun withpointed shafts of light that's
against a red backdrop. So thisflag was draped over this statue
which had you know, the redpaint that was dripping down it
and then had some some scrawledgraffiti on it and then several
(09:55):
pairs of tan lines moccasinswere placed on to the flag
draped statue. And photos weretaken. Some of these photos
appeared in newspapers and on TVand across social media. And
this was all happening in thedaylight. But then when night
fell as you said, Chris, it gotmore violent. Again the group
seemed to be relatively smalland relatively calm. But more
(10:18):
graffiti was scrawled on to thestatue as it was lying on its
side it was rolled down thestreet, it was streaked with
more paint, including somebright pink paint, which I found
oddly disturbing. I'm notentirely sure why something
about the how bright this pinkcolor was against the green
tinted metal and the light wasvery harsh because it was all
(10:41):
light from people cell phoneslike bright it was just
something about it that I foundreally disturbing. And then some
of the protesters, the peoplewho were involved in this scene,
they took hammers, and theywedged the claw parts of the
hammers into the statues necklike chisels, and then they beat
(11:01):
on the on the hammers with withsmall sledge hammers, trying to
use them like a chisel and thenonce they had broken holes in
the sides of the neck, they gota grinder out and they cut the
metal all around the neck, andthey severed the head from the
neck when it was about halfwayoff. And it was just kind of
(11:22):
dangling, frankly kind of like aloose tooth. They took sledge
hammers and they bashed theirhead off of the body. And I saw
a photo of this on the on theCBC News website. Have a photo
of this this head this bashedoff head on the sidewalk and
there are three feet stepping ontop of it. One foot is is
(11:45):
wearing a Birkenstock stylesandal. One of the feet is in a
running shoe, and then one iswearing this furred-top sandal,
a fuzzy furry sandal. And thehead is completely bashed in on
one side there are gaping holesin on that one side what was
bashed the green patina is gone.
(12:09):
So it's a kind of just a rustybrown metal and there are a
drips of orange paint thatstreak this bashed inside and
then on the other side that wasgreen. It's mostly now this
thick red paint that's drippingdown over the statue. And
because of the light this wastaken at night, there were heavy
shadows that cover the from thefrom the statues brow that cover
(12:31):
the eyes. And then you're right.
A few days later, this the headof the statue starts to move
around, it spent some time inLake Ontario. And then a few
days later, the head turned upin news photos 100 kilometers
away on a metal pike. And thiswas on a piece of land in
Caledonia, Ontario, which is thesite of a longtime land battle
(12:52):
between six nations of the GrandRiver and local developers. And
the head now stands on a metalpike with a strip of torn black
electrical tape over its mouth.
Christine Malec (13:07):
Now maybe this is already newly minted urban
legend but I read that the headwent into the lake and just
coincidentally fetched up on thebeach of indigenous land. I
don't even need to comment onthat. But I don't know how I got
there. It but from what Ithought I read was it was by
(13:28):
chance. Now that seemsimprobable. But I like the idea.
I like the legend.
JJ Hunt (13:32):
Yeah, I think there are going to be lots of lots of
stories being told about thehead of Ryerson. And I think
they've offered to pass itaround the people who currently
have it are offering to send itto other indigenous communities
who are having their own landbattles so that this head of
Ryerson can be put on display.
Christine Malec (13:52):
Get in line, get in line.
JJ Hunt (13:54):
Ya, tales will be told.
Christine Malec (13:56):
Oh it's an instant legend. And yeah, that's
very violent the way youdescribe it an eerie looking.
And yet there's a satisfactionthere's a certain satisfaction
there. So this is, you know, ourlocal story of statue toppling,
but there's been much topplingof statues in this past year.
(14:18):
And I think, JJ, you'd beenlooking at some images from the
US.
JJ Hunt (14:22):
Yeah, I read a stat somewhere that 168 Confederate
symbols were removed from acrossthe US in 2020. And all but one
of them were following themurder of George Floyd. So this
was a huge movement followingthe murder of George Floyd. 94
of these symbols, were monumentswere statues. And some of these
(14:44):
were removed in a in a lawfuland organized manner. So city
officials, town officials, stateofficials, whatever listened to
the populace made their owndecisions and and took these
statues down in an organizedway. So typically what that
means cranes and cherry pickersare used, depending on the size
(15:04):
of the statue. So the crane willwill lift a basket with some
workers up to the statue andthey will wrap straps around the
statue. If it's a person on ahorse, they'll put the straps
under the belly of the horse, ifit's an individual, they'll put
straps under the arms, whateveris required, they'll strap this
the statue, and then attachthose straps to a crane. And
(15:26):
then the crane will lift thestatue off of its base l
unbolted or some severed in someway from the base or platform or
whatever, they'll pick it up bythe crane. And then they'll set
it down the lie down usuallyflat on a flatbed truck, strap
it down, and they'll drive away.
And that's usually there's athere's a crowd around or this
media round, sometimes there'scheering sometimes or protest by
(15:49):
both sides. That's what it lookslike when it's official and
organized. But sometimes thesestatues don't get pulled down in
an official and organized way.
Sometimes they get pulled downby mobs of angry people.
Generally speaking, at somepoint, someone climbs up to the
statue with a rope, or a heavyduty strap like a winch strap.
(16:10):
And often a loop is placedaround the head of the statue.
So there's a very practical sideto this, which is that the the
head is what is exposed. And youcan make a loop in advance when
you're on the ground and thenfling it over the head. So
that's easy, and it'll cincharound tight. And so there's
practical reasons for that. Butyou know, I have to think
(16:31):
there's a violent symbolism tolooping a rope around a statues
neck right like, certainly, froma visual standpoint, it is a
very potent image to have a ropeput around the neck of a statue.
And then for the most part, inmost of the videos that I've
seen, most of the footage I'veseen, the pulling down of the
statues is done by members ofthe crowd, not by vehicles. So
(16:55):
it's not like these statues, ifthey're, you know, if they're
modest in size, if they are lifesize, or just a little larger
than life size. A group ofpeople like as if they're
participating in a tug of warwill hold on to the rope or
cable or whatever, and pull,they won't use vehicles, which
is not necessarily what I wouldhave imagined before going
through the footage. So youknow, people hold the rope and
(17:16):
yell "1-2-3 heave!" and they allpull in unison. And sometimes it
only takes a couple of poles toget these things down. Because
this is some interestinghistory, there's some
interesting history to the waythe Confederate statues went up.
So one of the narratives aboutConfederate statues is that
(17:37):
these are important works ofhistorical art that date back to
the Civil War. And that might betrue in some cases. But the fact
is, many of these statues wereactually mass produced a half
century after the war. So theseare, in fact, cheaply built,
they're poorly built. They wereavailable by catalog from
(18:00):
companies that made or ornatelawn ornaments and grave
markers. And I'm not trying tocomment on the politics of these
statues or the movements thatput them up. If you're
interested in that. There's somefantastic reporting on that out
there. But I just want tocomment on the material of the
build. The physical constructionof a lot of these Confederate
(18:21):
statues is that they are cheap,they are poorly made. And what
happens when they get toppledfrom a height. So if they're
standing on a pedestal, andsomeone yells heave and everyone
pulls on the rope, what happensis, they tumble forward, they
hit the ground, and they oftencave in, they get totally
smushed. These are not like big,strong metal statues, they
(18:46):
crumble. And there's a greatexample. There's some videos
online of 1926 Civil Warmonument in Durham, North
Carolina, this was a few yearsback, that the statue was pulled
down. And it's a pretty simplestatue, slightly larger than
life size. It's a standingConfederate soldier wearing a
wide brimmed hat. And this thesoldier has a you know, a musket
(19:10):
in front of him with the butt onthe ground in the in the barrel
of the musket standing straightup parallel to his body. And,
and what happens is there's athere's a group of people,
several people filming the largecheering group of people,
someone climbs a ladder that'sleaning against the back of the
concrete pedestal on which thisstatue stands. So the pedestals
maybe 15 feet off the ground,and a bright yellow winch strap.
(19:36):
So like a it's a flat strap istossed over the head of this
statue and the person gets downoff the ladder. The crowd starts
to pull, you know he he heaveand when the statue tips
forward, it brings a slab of theconcrete base with it so it
doesn't snap at the feet or theankles. It's the the actual top
(19:58):
of the pedestal that comes off.
So the the slab of concretecomes attached to the feet of
the statue, and the statute tipsforward and lands headfirst in a
garden bed. So it lands on dirtnot on concrete and lands in a
garden bed at the base of thepedestal, and it gets crushed
like tinfoil, the weight of theconcrete slab behind it, that
(20:21):
cheap metal, which was probablyzinc, and it's hollow, like a,
like an Easter Bunny, you know?
You get those chocolate EasterBunnies?
Christine Malec (20:31):
Um hum, um hm.
JJ Hunt (20:31):
It's that kind of flimsy and hollow, and it
completely crushes it. So thestatue is doubled over, it's
crushed, it's left completelyunrecognizable, just from
falling down, the head and theneck of the statue are
compressed into the torso.
Christine Malec (20:48):
Gasp!
JJ Hunt (20:48):
The legs are twisted, and they're flattened, they're
completely bent into. So when itlands ultimately lands the slab
is actually facing up. So if thestatue wasn't damaged, it would
be standing straight up. But thestatue is bent completely in
half, and the shoulder isresting on the grass. It's
(21:09):
completely bent. And at thispoint, some people move in some
people, you know, give thestatue the finger a few people
kick and stomp on it and thecrowd starts cheering. Totally
wild, get totally outrageous.
But that's what these statuessome of these statues a large
percentage are like when theycome down. They are cheaply
(21:29):
built and built and they getthey get crushed.
Christine Malec (21:35):
That sounds kind of more satisfying even I
think there'll be a certainsatisfaction Look, it was hollow
all along.
JJ Hunt (21:42):
Exactly. The symbolism certainly works. If you are if
you are in a frame of mind tothink that this was just a
hollow statue all along. Thiswas cheaply built... The
symbolism is there for thetaking.
Christine Malec (21:58):
Can you give some visuals of the crowd
response when it comes down?
Like I get the people are happy.
But can you say a bit more aboutthe expressiveness of that what
it looks like?
JJ Hunt (22:08):
Yeah, I mean, it's obviously it's different in
every situation, but it getsspecifically in this in this. A
lot of the Confederate monumentsthat come down, lots of people
cheering, right, it's a bigcelebratory moment, lots of
cheering, lots of chanting,usually a handful of people rush
in, and they want to kick orthey want to spit, or they want
(22:32):
to, you know, hit it with ahammer or something. There are
those moments. So there'sthere's a funny interplay
between a handful of people whowant to continue the violence
who want to continue the, youknow, who wanted to seek
vengeance, and in the hammer,right, this thing, right. And
then there are some who arewanting to just be part of the
moment in history and are maybecaught up in the moment, and
(22:55):
they are cheering and screamingand applauding. Some people are
laughing, you're right to saythat it's like there's a
celebratory feel there,generally speaking, is
celebration. But that's notalways the case, right? Some of
these things like this, thiswhole scene that I just
described was in the middle ofwhat looked like the middle of
an afternoon, it was bright andsunny and whatnot. I think when
(23:16):
some of these things happenlater at night, if they happen
in direct response to an event,as opposed to just like it is
bloody well, time to get rid ofthis, you know, yeah, that makes
it feel a little more violent,it's a little more fresh. And so
the people who are there aremaybe angrier, and they're
yelling indirectly into eachother's cameras, like someone
(23:40):
will be filming and there'll bekicking the, you know, the
downed monument, the felledmonument, maybe there'll be
cutting off its head that islike, you know, we described
with Ryerson, that's a thingthat often happens. Those are
the moments when it's obviouslyangrier, it's obviously more
violent. And, and there's aclear tension. And often the,
(24:03):
from a visual standpoint, thefact that it's being filmed at
night, with spotlights from cellphones and things like that, it
just adds to the drama and thetension in the videos.
Christine Malec (24:14):
Obviously, dismantling of statues is not a
new is not a new thing. And I'mthinking of Saddam Hussein. And
that was a very big moment thatwas highly publicized was when
his statue came down around herstand. There was maybe a bit of
planning around that.
JJ Hunt (24:31):
Yeah, that was a huge moment. And you're right that
this has been going on forever.
As long as there have beenstatues going up, people have
been tearing them down. That'sbeen since the beginning of
history.
But this is one of the morefamous moments in recent
history, the 2003 topplingtoppling of this 39 foot tall
(24:53):
statue of Saddam Hussein thatwas promoted as the symbolic end
to the Battle of Baghdad. Andthe videos and images that came
out and were shown in in the USand in Canada by CNN and BBC and
whatnot. The way they focusedtheir footage, the way they
(25:15):
focus that, you know, their lenson this event was very
interesting. So now you can goback and you can look at all of
the footage, you aren't justgetting that same seven minute
reel replayed over and overagain. Now you can go back and
look at all the footage and it'spretty interesting. So the first
images and video clips fromthis, this time this moment show
(25:38):
crowds of Iraqi men gathering atthe base of a large cement
pedestal upon which this metalstatue stands and it's a big
statue like as a 39 foot tallthe pedestals probably close to
the same height. And thepedestals you know, maybe as
thick as a as a great Redwoodit's a great big, thick,
(26:00):
concrete looking pedestal. Andin a ladder is set up against
the side of the pedestal. And,and a few men climb up and they
and they take a thick rope andthey loop it around the neck of
the statue, it's a noose andthey throw this rope around the
neck of the statue. And thenthey these men start passing
around a sledge hammer, and theystart chopping away at the
(26:21):
pedestal like they're choppingdown a tree, but it's big, it's
really thick, so they pass thesledgehammer around, they're
hammering away, but they'rebarely chipping it. It's really
solid, they would never ever beable to take this thing down by
hitting it with a sledge hammer.
So then what happens is anAmerican armored Recovery
Vehicle -- basically, picture atank, but instead of a big gun
(26:43):
pointing off the front of it,it's got a crane off the front
of it. This armored vehiclerolls through what is clear at
this point to be a relativelysmall crowd of men. So when the
camera pulls back, and you seethis whole square with the
statue standing in it, you cansee in this moment, that it's
not a massive crowd of people.
(27:05):
But the armored vehicle goesright through the middle of it.
And then the camera angleschange and we get back to close
ups and in the close ups thecrowd looks much more...
excitable and engaged and itlooks like a thicker crowd of
people when you're filming fromright in the heart of it. So the
armored vehicle rolls up. Andthe the crane arm is extended
(27:26):
toward the statue. And a few USMarines climb the crane arm and
they basically get themselvesjust about face to face with the
statue of Saddam Hussein. And,and one of them takes an
American flag and drapes it overthe face of the statue. And the
wind is such that it keeps thisflag in place for a few seconds.
(27:49):
It's just completely covered. Soagain, lots of cameras shooting
this moment. You've got SaddamHussein standing there, the
statue's right arm is extendedup toward the sky, very grand
gesture, but he's got anAmerican flag covering his face
and there's a rope around hisneck and the crowd is cheering.
And then, you know, some timegoes by they're trying to figure
(28:12):
out how to get the statue down.
And ultimately what they come upwith is a chain that's wrapped
around the statues neck so notthis rope, not this the the
noose that's put around hisneck, there's no way that would
be effective. They take a chainfrom the armored vehicle, they
wrap that around the statue'sneck, they attach that to the
crane, and then the crowd is allbacked away, the flag is gone.
And the footage, for the mostpart doesn't show the vehicle.
(28:36):
They only show the statue somostly what you get is a close
up of the statue. The chain goestaut, and the statue slowly
begins to tip forward. And evenover the cheering of this
relatively small crowd but youknow, excited crowd you can hear
the metal crunching as thestatue slowly pitches forward.
(28:58):
Now then the left knee on thestatue goes it snaps should
severs and then the right kneesnaps. But somehow the statue
stays more or less upright. It'stipping over but it's still
standing because there areinternal supports beyond the
hollow shell and they keeppulling on this thing and
(29:19):
finally what happens is it tipsforward but it doesn't fall
completely to the ground itremains rooted to the pedestal.
It's basically parallel to theground sticking straight out
from this pedestal but the thearm that was grandly reaching
for the sky is now you knowpointing on an angle down toward
the ground. Ultimately the youknow the armored vehicle pulled
(29:41):
back to yanked it to the ground.
Then the crowd moved in and theycut the head off and they
dragged the head around thecity. All told, it took like two
hours for this to happen and CNNcovered the entire thing. They
had the cameras on the wholetime. And then after they edited
(30:03):
it down into a small tightpackage, and they were very
careful about what they showed,right? Honestly, people teach
entire media classes based onhow this was how this was
presented by mass media. How bigwas the crowd? You know? Well,
if you show a lot of those, youknow, just those those big shots
(30:26):
from far away, you can see thatthe crowd wasn't very big. So
mostly they use tight shots fromwithin the group. How many
people were locals? And how manypeople were medium members and
military high? You know, howmuch time did the media spend
showing the moment of theAmerican flag on the face of the
statue, which really onlyhappened to for a few seconds.
(30:46):
But, you know, according to thefront page newspapers, that was
the image that was everywhere,but it only took a few seconds,
compared to the hours that werespent with the American
military, trying to figure outhow to take this thing down in a
relatively safe manner. It was areally fascinating, both from
just like, how do you get thishonkin statue to come down? And
(31:08):
also how do you film it? How doyou use this on TV? It looked
like the triumphant end of awar. But was that the moment
Was that the end of the war? Obiously that is well beyond o
r scope. What I can say is thatt was really juicy footage
(31:29):
t made for great front page phoos. And like I said at the begi
ning, these statues are powerfulsymbols, whether they're
oing up whether they're left stading or being torn down.
Christine Malec (31:42):
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that's pa t ar e o n.com slashtalk description to me have
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