July 16, 2025 • 62 mins
Ever wonder why she’s not as turned on—or as fast—as you are?
You're not alone. And she's not broken.
In this episode, I’m joined by sociologist, intimacy coach, and TEDx speaker Dr. Jenn Gunsaullus to unpack one of the most misunderstood issues in sex and relationships: the arousal gap.
We’ll break down:
✅ Why men often feel ready in seconds—and women don’t
✅ What’s really going on when she “seems like she’s not into it”
✅ The difference between spontaneous and responsive desire
✅ How mental load, emotional safety, and shame kill arousal
✅ What you can do to actually close the gap—in bed and beyond
Whether you’re a man trying to better understand your partner, or a woman wondering “what happened to my libido?”—this episode is for you.
You can find my spicy site here. https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
My spicy OF handle is @talksexwithannette
My free spicy handle is @annettetalkssex
Subscribe to my e-newsletter: https://she-explores-life.ck.page/e9760c390c
Ask a question, Leave a Comment: https://www.speakpipe.com/LockerRoomTalkPodcast
My substack: https://talksexwithannette.substack.com/
Use code EXPLORES15 for 15% off all Womanizer Products at Womanizer.com.
Get 30% Off Sex Toys & Lube with code EXPLORES30
at thethruster.com: https://bit.ly/3Xsj5wY
Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti
Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti
Get your intimacy questions answered, enjoy erotic audio readings and more.
https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@annettebenedetti
Connect with us
We are on all the socials:
- TikTok: @ LockerRoomTalkPodcast
- LRT's Insta: @Lockerroomtalkandshots
- Annette's Insta: @BeingBenedetti
- SEL Inst: @SheExplores_Life
- LRT's FB: @LockerRoomTalkandShots
- SEL FB: @ SheExploresLife
- Annette's YouTube: Annette Benedetti
Check Out More Sexy Content:
She Explores Life Website: sheexploreslife.com
Cheers!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is the arousal gap whyshe's not turned on and how to
fix it.
Let's talk about that momentYou're naked, maybe making out
(01:06):
he's hard, about that momentYou're naked, maybe making out
he's hard in 30 seconds and youyou're still thinking about the
laundry or that annoying thinghe said three hours.
That just hit wrong.
Or maybe your body just hasn'tcaught up yet.
This is what we call thearousal gap, and if you've ever
felt broken because you couldn'tget there fast enough, this
episode is your reminder thatyou're not the problem.
(01:28):
Joining me today is thebrilliant Dr Jen Gonzalez, a
sociologist, intimacy coach,tedx speaker and host of Dr
Jen's Den.
She's here to break down thescience, the psychology and the
cultural bullshit that keepswomen disconnected from their
own desire.
So, whether you're the partnerwondering why isn't she into it?
(01:49):
Or the woman thinking whathappened to my libido.
This episode is for you, butbefore we dive in, I want to
remind you I'm over on OnlyFansand there I am sharing my sex
and intimacy how-tos,demonstrations and audio guided
self-pleasure meditations and somuch more to help you start
having better sex and intimacystarting tonight.
You can find me there and alsoover on Substack doing much of
(02:13):
the same under the handle atTalkSexWithAnEye.
You can also scroll down andyou're going to find all of the
links to anywhere you want tofind me below in the description
of this episode.
And now I want to hand the micover to Dr Jen Jen.
Can you tell my listeners moreabout?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, just in a nutshell.
The doctor part of it, like yousaid, is I'm a sociologist.
I have my PhD in sociologyspecializing in intimacy and sex
and sexual health andrelationships and communication,
and over the years, you know,my biggest passion has been
around reducing shame andrelationships and communication.
And over the years, you know,my biggest passion has been
around reducing shame and stigmaand misinformation, which there
(02:50):
is so much around still, whichis stunning to say in 2025.
So I've been doing this for 32years and increasing connection
and self-love and vulnerabilityand, you know, meaningful and
effective communication.
So I do that through.
I have a private practicerelationship and intimacy
coaching.
I travel around the world,public speaking to groups and
(03:13):
couples and retreats, writingvideo work, et cetera.
So cause there can never beenough of these conversations
out there.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
There can't.
And the more of us, the better.
And the more of us saying thesame things, the better.
So that some of you will startbelieving us, god damn it.
So I'm excited about thisconversation and folks, you know
why you need to stay to the end, because I am confident that
the vast majority of youlistening to me have encountered
(03:43):
this situation where, inparticular and this is for all
folks, I'm not just talkingabout heterosexual couples here.
You guys know I'm queer.
I have been in, I've been onthe side of not being able to
get excited soon enough.
I've been with partners whoidentify as women, who have had
a struggle getting that.
(04:04):
Y'all know I've got a heftysexual appetite, so we've all
kind of run into this issue.
But there is, in particular inheterosexual relationships
between men and women a moreextreme gap, especially at the
younger ages.
So we're going to help younavigate that, understand it, so
it's not personalized and feelslike an insult to one of you.
(04:26):
And we're going to give you ago pack, as always, by the end
of this podcast so that when youwant to get it on tonight
you're going to get closer tomaybe closing the arousal gap
and getting her off.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I'm in Cheers.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I got my Wonder Woman mug right.
So, dr Jen, what is the arousalgap and why is it such a
universal?
It's a universal experience.
Right In my intro I was likeI'm pretty sure everyone
listening to this hasexperienced this.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, the main thing is, I mean, I think still and I
can mainly speak to Americansociety, but this seems to be
across the board our standard ofquote unquote, normal or what
things should be in a sexualencounter still is the male
standard in many ways, and andthen therefore anything that's
different than that then seemswrong or broken, which is not
(05:38):
the case, because that would be.
Majority of women's bodies arequote unquote, wrong or broken
in some way.
And the main aspect of thearousal gap is that men in
general can quickly get arousedin that they are getting blood
flow to their genitals andthey're having an erection just
a more straightforward path.
And there is a particularlydirect path for men around that.
(05:59):
And not that men don't strugglewith erections at all ages and
for various reasons.
However, at least in general,and that can be quite fast.
And then men know they'rearoused also because they've got
like.
They can feel it, they can seeit, versus women's bodies can.
It's not unusual for it to takeup to 20 minutes to get enough
(06:22):
blood flow to the genitals thatthings start to feel good, that
you get, you know, because theblood flow and then the vaginal
lubrication, all of that makesthings feel good versus feeling
like too much friction or toorough or the blood flow create
the plumpness too, like ifyou've ever.
You look at your own vulvabefore arousal and then, like 20
minutes into arousal, you'relike, oh, that is like a
(06:44):
blossoming flower down there.
It is blooming, it's such.
It changes colors, it becomes adeeper color and all of that in
general takes more time.
For women.
It depends on your age, howhydrated you are, where you, how
long you know if you're withsomebody new or if you're in a
long term relationship, how safeyou feel could be perimenopause
, menopausal so many differentfactors.
(07:05):
But in general it takes longerand as women we can't see it per
se Like when we're just likemoving about our day or even in
bed, like you really need to belooking down and paying
attention, and most of us aren'tdoing that.
So there's a time that it takesfor that blood flow and that
vaginal lubrication, and therecan be a disconnect between even
(07:28):
realizing that our body isturned on some.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
What do you think that disconnect is between the
brain and the body for women,who maybe their bodies are
starting to respond, but theirbrain doesn't register it?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, some of it is.
I mean because it is.
It's so subtle, like if we'regetting, you know, experiencing
vaginal lubrication.
We can't necessarily feel thatunless we've practiced really a
depth of mindfulness, bodyawareness, to be able to even
feel those little shifts.
So there's a, there's adisconnect and I only say
disconnect, at least compared tomen who have a very blatant,
(08:10):
you know, sign of arousal.
So in that case.
But I also think and this iswhere desire comes in, and often
desire and arousal are put intothe same bucket, but they're
very different systems and ingeneral arousal is easier to
understand, some because it'smore physiological desire.
We still don't understand allthat well, but that's not like
(08:31):
yearning, that, yearning forsexual connection or sexual
release or to experiencesomething that feels erotic,
versus again that likephysiological blood flow.
So, but I think that's a piece.
We can get that physiologicalblood flow, maybe something is.
We're watching some pornographyor something that is creating a
physiological response in us ata, at a very sort of base
(08:53):
animal level, but our brainisn't turned on, our emotions
aren't turned on, we're not.
So there can be a disconnect inthat way.
If we don't maybe like whatwe're seeing or it, it upsets us
in some way, or we're withsomebody and even if we're
starting to make out some and,and you know, maybe our bodies
and they're touching us and ourbodies turning on, but like in
(09:15):
our head, we're just stilldistracted.
So I just there's manycomponents of it psychological,
emotional, emotional,physiological and a complex
interplay between them.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Right.
Do you think women experiencethat arousal and the connection
between the brain, the body, theemotional piece as a more
complex experience than men?
Complex?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
experience than men.
If I had to say yes or no in ageneralization, I would say yes,
that there is an experience ofmore complexity.
However, again, you know,everything's there's so much in
the broad range of normal andwhat's natural, but at least
statistically I would say yes, Ido think there's a distinct
(10:05):
difference.
And then again, which is whythen I mean, you know, I've been
in this field for so long thenumber of women of all ages that
I've talked to and worked withindividually or in groups, who
think that they are broken insome way, that there's something
wrong with them.
You know, I published a book,like six years ago, and that was
one of my main points.
Like hey, no, here's all theresearch.
Like you are absolutely normal,like you are not broken, like
(10:28):
this is how our bodies workdifferently, and then this is
the bullshit you know weinherited from society.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So, yeah, I think it's a combination of factors,
but there does seem to be agreater complexity about that
societal piece, how shame playsinto our lack of ability to
become aroused quickly, and alsosort of the messaging we were
(10:54):
given about our arousal andpleasure.
From a very young age Iremember being told, as soon as
sort of sex ed started, that itwas very normal for some women
to never have an orgasm, thatthat was the norm.
And it was even more normalthat while I might experience
(11:17):
external pleasure, it was verynormal to never, ever experience
internal pleasure, normal tonever, ever experience internal
pleasure.
And so for me I was like,because I didn't experience any
pleasure at first, except forwhen I was alone, I was like, oh
okay, so I'm just going to beone of the women who don't
(11:38):
experience this kind of pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Oh wow, that's so interesting because so often I
feel like the messaging goes inthe opposite way, that you're
like, if you're not experiencingorgasm or pleasure, like
there's something wrong with youand you got the opposite, Like
hey, no, you might not andthat's normal, but then that
also set up, you know, aproblematic expectation and then
(12:02):
for yourself, I guess then noteven realizing that it could be
different for you and maybeshould be different quote,
unquote for you.
Is that what was your journey?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I well.
I was frustrated because I alsohad a very high sexual appetite
from a very young age.
And so it was like why can I dothis with myself and not with a
partner?
I think there was also afeeling of, oh, I'm one of the
broken women who can't orgasm,and that's just like when I'm
(12:35):
with somebody and that's justhow it is Right.
And so good sex for me becamesomething else, and what it
became was sort of a scorecardof, oh, I can make him come the
fastest, or I like it wasperformative and it was almost
like a collection of I'm good inbed because I can please this
man so much, even though I'm notpleased by it.
(13:08):
And and then you know,entertaining myself in my head
while I was performing, because,because I wasn't enjoying it
Right, I was like, ok, and itwas yeah, and for me that was
good sex.
Oh, I made him come this fast.
Or oh, he thinks I'm so good inbed because I did X, y and Z.
It wasn't because this isbringing my body.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Right, but it was like disembodied good sex in one
direction.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's actually reallyinteresting.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for sharing that andsharing those details, because I
think you know, the longer I'min this field, the more sort of
endless nuances that I find, andthat even sometimes with the
best intent of educationalapproaches if you're really not
(13:42):
getting into the details ofteaching, like a woman, how to
know our body and like our bodyand explore our own bodies and
that the fundamental bottom linemessage is like you have a
right to your desire, you have aright to your arousal, you have
a right to your pleasure andnormalizing all of that.
And then each young woman andthen aging woman that always
knows at each stage of life thatlike, oh, yeah, this might
(14:05):
shift and change, but I have aright to this.
It's not going to look likeother people's because I'm
unique and but I could keepexploring this and that should
be the gold standard, but, yeah,it always still ends up in a
black and white, I think, evenwhen people are trying to give
space for flexibility.
It's interesting anddisheartening.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Another message that and a lot of my listeners have
this idea and thought andquestion there's a general
belief, especially from men whoare older, and I'm going to, so
I'm going to say I'm going topush the limit on this and say,
35 and up certainly 40 and upthat women, once they're past 35
(14:45):
or 40, no longer have a libido,no longer want sex and no
longer enjoy sex and just don'tget turned on.
And and I, like studies don'tactually show that that's true.
I don't believe that's true.
I certainly am not experiencingthat myself.
(15:07):
I'm like, fucking turned on allthe time.
Body is a little out of controlthese days.
I work hard for it though.
I work hard for it.
All right, guys, my job's tough, my job stuff, but I do put a
(15:28):
lot of effort into, likeenjoying and maintaining my
sexual self and and then usingit to empower the rest of my
life.
But can you talk about that?
Can you talk to my listenersabout women's arousal ability to
get aroused libido?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Later in life.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, and so I mean I would say the main big factors
that we're more likely to see 40and beyond is one, folks are
more likely in long-termrelationships.
And two, you've gotperimenopause and menopause.
So one is a very like you know,relational, sociological, but
(16:05):
also physiological that when weare with the same person time
and time again in a monogamousrelationship, women more likely
statistically are to see adecline in their desire.
And then if you have a declinein desire that can go hand in
hand with the decline in arousal, or it's just harder to even
get to the arousal part becauseyou're not interested in sex and
(16:26):
all.
So that's a very real thingthat can be at that time period.
And then the other piece is theperimenopause and menopause,
which are very real hormonalshifts and hormonal shifts
specifically that impact thevulva and the vagina, the
urethra.
That is, the shift in thetissue that it becomes much
thinner and more brittle andyou're not getting blood flow in
the same way You're not getting, with the drop in estrogen,
(16:49):
you're not getting vaginallubrication on your own also.
So those are very realphysiological shifts.
And then sort of emotionalrelational shifts that can lead
to physiological shifts.
That can lead to physiologicalshifts.
You take though one of thosewomen maybe out of her regular
life and plop her into a contextwhere she, you know, is relaxed
(17:10):
and getting sleep and doesn'thave kids around and is enjoying
herself, or is on vacation andhas hot young things hitting on
her, like the likelihood ofexperiencing some desire and
arousal is absolutely stillthere.
So I do think there's very real, you know, contextual factors
that impact women in midlife.
(17:32):
I also think you know, the morethat we're talking about
consent and boundaries, the lesswomen are willing to put up
with bullshit and going along todo things just for obligation
sake.
So, yeah, and then I'd throwinto also, like I said, it's not
uncommon for one or both peoplein a long-term relationship to
experience a drop in theirdesire, and I think we just we
(17:57):
don't know what to do with thatbecause we're never.
we only have the Hollywoodversion of of desire and
overwhelming arousal and orgasmand everybody's easily orgasmic
and none of that is real in mostlong term relationships, let
alone with how our lives aredesigned, with so much work and
(18:17):
driving kids everywhere andgoing to school and making ends
meet and taking care of a houseand not getting enough sleep,
and then basically, technologyinterferes with everything.
So there's so much about likeour lifestyle factors of also
the nuclear family that's justone family taking care of a
whole household and all the kidsand everything that doesn't at
(18:38):
all aid in desire and, frankly,even closeness for couples,
again with your contexts thatare necessary to be able to jump
into things and then give yourbody a chance to get aroused and
turned on.
So does that answer yourquestion?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It sounds like context is a big piece for women
.
What their surrounding is whattheir lifestyle is like, how
their partner treats intimacyand approaches intimacy.
It should not be that a womanhas to be on vacation in order
(19:16):
to have the space to light updesire.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I was just going to say but that is, that is our,
that is our current life andtechnology, while it's supposed
to make things easier,absolutely makes it more hectic.
And we're just on call 24-7.
That's not good for our nervoussystems, that's not good for
our relationships, it's not goodfor marriages, it's not good
for parenting, it's just notRight.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, but men still are able to maintain sort of a
quick arousal.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
men don't necessarily have the same problem, correct,
right, and I do.
Some men, some men, if they'reunder high stress, you know, or
they've drank a lot, and thenoften then, once you've crossed
50, you know, because you'll getless blood flow, there'll be
some hormonal shifts, so, but ingeneral, men do tend to keep
higher desire levels and thenmore quick arousal.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, in their bodies , because we are wired, men tend
to prioritize their sexualappetite and I think that that
has a lot to do with our societyputs a lot of value on a
(21:11):
sexually virile man who has sexwith lots of women and it makes
him like a desirable man,whereas you know, and I'd like
to think, things are shifting.
For Gen Z and youngergenerations, but certainly
millennials and beyond, womenwho desired sex and have sex
(21:35):
with lots of people or go aftersex or have sex with younger
people are considered horrorsand dirty and to lose value.
Right, that's the message atleast the red pill men out there
are trying to push that a womanwho loves sex and wants to have
sex or at least enjoy sex withmultiple people loses her value.
(21:58):
And so you know, it only makessense that if you are getting
that message and then you'restruggling with context and in
your life, all the crazy thingsyou have to take care of, and
then a long-term relationshipwith a partner who doesn't know
how to build space in forarousal, that you would devalue
(22:20):
even trying to address it as youget older, and it would feel
like relief to throw the wholefucking thing out the door and
say I'm done with this part ofmy life.
It's been so stressful, I justdon't want to deal with it
anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yes, and I think that's important, that you're
saying that hopefully we reallyare seeing generational changes
around that, that with theyounger generations and at least
on social media, that there ismore of a normalization that
everybody's sexual, everybodyhas a right to be sexual,
everybody has a right to put upboundaries, to ask for what you
want, to say yes, to say no, toexplore, regardless of gender.
(22:54):
We are seeing shifts in that,although, frankly, that stuff
never seems to stick for women,not in a way that's actually
embodied and empowering forwomen, right, it still can often
be that sort of performanceaspect of it.
So, but certainly, yeah, theolder generations, and I would
say particularly maybe 40 womenthat are 45 or 50 and older,
(23:15):
really did grow up with the youknow, the biggest stigma you
could have in high school, whichis probably still there that
was to be labeled a slut or awhore, and it didn't matter if
you were actually even sexual atall, it would just be.
If it's attached to you, thenyou are belittled and degraded
and people feel like they have aright to treat you badly.
So that is still, and that issomething that, as women, we
(23:38):
tend to carry throughout ourlifetimes and I do think that
absolutely, those societalmessaging and that shame around
it and that right there's,there's shame if you're not
sexual enough and their shame ifyou're too sexual, and then
there really is no you knowright middle place.
It's only defined by otherpeople and how they judge us.
So, yes, those, I think thosesocietal factors are massive.
(24:01):
I think those societal factorsare massive.
One thing that's a shift that,particularly around menopause
for women, maybe early to mid50s, if, depending on how the
hormonal shifts, where a womansort of ends up around her, her
desire, there can be a shift inthe opposite direction.
(24:21):
I see this with so many womenthat they're like I'm, I'm, I've
taken care of all y'all.
My whole life I prioritizedyour need, I've cooked you meals
, I've driven you places.
You're off to college.
Now I don't want to take careof any children.
They get divorced or theyseparate and just sort of get
their own home and live theirown lives.
Or they start traveling morewith girlfriends and they might
(24:44):
be and they're trying vibratorsfor the first time and they're
grabbing lube and they arefeeling a freedom to explore,
even though that was nevertaught to them growing up.
But there's something, and Itruly think it's a shift of like
that you're not.
You know you aren't.
Mainly women aren't mainlydefined through their familial
roles.
But I also think it's a shift,and it's the drop in estrogen
(25:06):
that that makes us more want tobe caretakers and connect, and
that women are like F you.
It's not about you anymore,it's about me, and for some
women that can be then startingsexual exploration in a way
they've never done before.
And there's and there's so muchwell, there's so much Well,
(25:32):
there's so much.
That's changed in decades sincemaybe before, when they were
exploring at all but there'sjust this new like you know, I'm
not, I'm not.
I don't want to deal withsocietal bullshit, standards
anymore, or judgment of my body,or my body doesn't look good
enough, or I gain some weightand that means I'm less valuable
.
You know F you.
This is about me.
This is about me taking care ofme.
It's about not about me lookingpretty for you or taking care
(25:53):
of you or doing anything for you.
So that shift is an interestingthing to watch, especially now
that menopause and perimenopausetruly have become hot topics
pun intended and that we're justgetting so much more education
around it and normalization ofthese topics and the shifts for
women's bodies and the aspect ofhow important sexual health is.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I think there is a shift.
I think that people in our agerange, I would say and 40 and up
, maybe late 30s even, are womenare waking up to 30s.
Even our women are waking up toI want my life, I want to feel
sexy again, I want to have goodsex again, I want to do some
crazy kinky things.
You know, I want to do thethings and they're hearing more
(26:36):
about it because theseconversations are becoming more
mainstream, whether societywants them to or not, and I know
right now in America, this isnot what America wants to hear
happening.
But fuck you, we're going to doit anyways.
Right, and I'm certainly.
I feel very blessed.
I'm in a sex positive community.
(26:57):
I have been given sort of thekeys to the golden gate of like
fun sexual experimentation, anda lot of that is facilitated by
age and being like oh, now I'mdisregarded because I'm 40.
Well, I guess I can do whateverthe fuck I want.
I've gone and done it and thensome right, yeah, and then also
(27:17):
I think it's great.
This is a great segue into whatdo we do about the arousal gap?
And you bring up menopause andlook, the arousal gap can happen
really at any time in life.
But something to help us segueinto like, what do we do about
it?
Obviously, there's a big partof that that happens in the 40s.
(27:38):
There's a significant shift andfortunately, menopause and the
studies and the work and thetreatments for it are finally
being addressed in a big way.
It's a hot topic.
There's a lot of pressure tofigure it out for women.
Women are like why has nobodyhelped us with this?
(28:00):
You know, it gives you a littlemore compassion for our mothers
and grandmothers who are like apain in the ass at this time in
their life right.
Because they didn't get the help.
Like I was miserable whenmenopause kicked in but I was
aggressive in figuring out likehow I was.
Like I cannot function likethat.
There are treatments for it.
There are multiple avenues withhormone regulation, hrt, all
(28:26):
sorts of different treatmentsthat women can seek now to find
balance, and in that balance youcan even kind of knock up your
libido, potentially get a littlekick to your sex drive and
arousal.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I'm a little spicy these days.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You've got the arousal gap, guys, you know what
we're talking about.
You are wanting to get some.
She is doing everything she canto avoid you.
She is doling out obligatorysex once a month, maybe once
every other month, because sheknows she has to.
She looks away while you poundaway at her and it makes you die
a little inside every time.
(29:00):
I understand this is horriblefor everybody.
So how do we start to addressthe arousal gap?
Can we start knocking off someof the things women can do,
couples can do to address ittogether?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean the first two places my head went is
one I feel like we still don't,particularly for women in
long-term relationships.
We're not necessarily talkingabout pleasure and really at the
core, and how pleasure?
Because if our bodies arealways changing and our hormones
are always changing, and ifyou've given births and let
(29:37):
alone perimenopause andmenopause, that means our
physiology is always changing.
So then our access to desirewill shift and change and
sometimes there's a grievingprocess that what used to be
easy or fun or would easilybring you to orgasm, like
doesn't work anymore.
It doesn't work in the same way.
So my first thought is like,well, if you're not experiencing
(30:00):
much pleasure, then right,you're not going to want to keep
seeking out a sexual encounter,let alone if you're
experiencing pain.
There's a whole nother levelbecause you know it is wired in
our bodies as animals that ifsomething brings about physical
pain generally we want to avoidit because you know it doesn't
seem right for us.
(30:20):
So that piece of justnormalizing that like yeah, what
feels pleasurable shifts andchanges over time and maybe it's
a little like harder to accessor create, requires more
creativity.
So that's one thought and youknow, treat your body like a
playground, like going a littlenooks and crannies and move
(30:40):
around and try different toys.
Like I said, try differentlubes and different body parts,
from your neck to your nipplesto you know your mouth and your
tongue and you know your innerthighs and your vulva and all
around and the entrance to yourvagina and around your clitoris
and the entrance to your anusand inside, like all of that,
(31:02):
has so many nerve endings andmaybe what used to work doesn't
work anymore.
But if you can be exploratoryand open minded to that of
playing with your body in newways, you might find new ways
that bring pleasure.
So one that's, and that's thephysical pleasure.
But the other aspect ofpleasure is like our brains
still really are our biggest sexorgans in so many ways.
(31:23):
So do play with listening toaudio erotic apps and those
amazing stories that are verysexy, and you could choose them
in genres that you want so thatyour, your brain's getting
kicked in and releasing some ofthose neurochemicals.
That's kicking off some desireand kicking off some arousal for
yourself.
So the first one is is awarenessand creativity around pleasure.
(31:44):
And then the second one is likewe need to be talking about
these things and with ourpartners.
So you know, specifically in along-term relationship, the
number of couples.
You know, I heard a gentleman awhile ago.
He was maybe in his early 60sand I was talking about
menopause and menopausal changesto women's bodies and that it's
common that if they're notgetting any sort of hormone
(32:06):
replacement that they mayexperience pain during
intercourse.
He was stunned like didn't knowit, didn't know that was a
thing, and they didn't know thathis wife was probably silently
suffering.
And so I was like, oh like, andthen felt terrible, you know,
and it felt terrible and thenwas like did I not create a safe
space for her to talk aboutthat?
I didn't even ask, I didn'tknow to ask.
(32:27):
I mean, I'm a big fan of weeklycheck-ins and monthly check-ins
for couples, like when I docoaching with couples and it's
different for each couple.
But if you have some topic thatyou've been avoiding and it's
(32:50):
just getting brushed under therug, brushed under the rug, make
sure you create little chunksof time, even just 15 minutes
once a week, to be talking aboutthese things.
And I, you know, and it couldbe, you know, make up a list of
10 different components of yourbody that maybe sometimes feels
pleasure or used to, and justdiscuss how it's changed.
You know, just or get one ofthose boxes of questions around
sexual questions, or there's somany ways.
There's a lot of tools outthere to help structure a
conversation, but just starthaving the conversation and
(33:12):
normalize that.
You are talking about your body,you're talking about these
vulnerable topics that maybe youfeel shame about or you're
afraid of being judged for,you're afraid of being rejected
for, or you're afraid of notdoing it right and you're going
to make your partner feel shamedor rejected.
We just these these hardconversations about vulnerable
topics, but they're generally atthe at the core of them.
(33:34):
Why they're so important isthat there's some need that's
not being met and it could beemotional, mental, physical,
sexual.
But start creating a contextwhere you are normalizing the
discomfort of having theseconversations so over time, you
start to feel more comfortablewith it.
So just start by havingconversations and then, by bit
by bit, you're going to becreating this ongoing space that
(33:56):
you can bring up these topicsand then figure out how to be a
team together, because that is Imean if you want to be one of
those couples that in your 50s,60s, 70s, 80s, you look back and
you're like.
Well, our bodies don't looklike they used to and they don't
function in the same way, but Ifeel closer to you and more
loved by you and more seen andunderstood and connected and
(34:17):
intimate with you than everbefore.
You need to be talking andworking as a team to get there.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Right, I think one of the coolest things I've really
learned in the last year and ahalf is how like turned on
compassion from my partner andsweetness and interest in seeing
my not only my pleasure.
(34:46):
I think sometimes men especiallyget focused on I want to see
you have pleasure.
But what turns me on as apartner who is like I want to
see you have peace and to feelsecure and to know that I'm here
and boy, and to know that I'mhere and boy, she gets wet like
(35:08):
that when I have a conversationwith a partner.
I recently was able to just sayto a partner after kind of a it
wasn't a hard conversation, itwas something that triggered
anxiety in me.
I was able to say I know thisis my stuff, but I'm feeling
kind of anxious right now aboutsecurity in our relationship and
I'm like would you be willingto help me feel more secure?
(35:32):
And he was like right there.
He was like, yeah, I'mabsolutely like I could hear him
lock in.
He just locked right in and waslike yeah, let's talk.
And there like seriously, itcould have brought tears to my
eyes.
It wasn't that it could have,it did.
It brought tears to my eyes andmy heart to swell.
(35:52):
Because it's like that's thekind of stuff that really
connects a woman to you andgives her starts.
Talking about context, givesher the space Peace will give
her the space to open up, andI'm saying open up everywhere
we're talking about all holesopening up right.
Seriously, and I don't think alot of guys know that.
(36:14):
I think at a young age we getinto this idea that arousal and
interest is in this cat andmouse push and pull like keep
her on the edge, so she'sinterested.
Keeping someone on the edge isanxiety.
Anxiety may be exciting atfirst but it's depleting and
(36:35):
eventually it does the opposite.
Right Anxiety not a libidobooster.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
No, I think it's yes.
I think you've stated that sowell, and every once in a while,
I get on a soapbox for myselfif I'm talking to a man in my
life and I'd be like I don'tthink you guys understand how,
from such a young age, mostwomen gosh.
This makes me want to cry.
Saying this most women movethrough this world in a way that
(37:02):
people are trying to takesomething from our bodies and or
they are trying to hurt us orthey're trying to take something
sexually, that it is somethingthat they want from us or that
they want to harm us in some way.
And so the lack of safety ofwalking at nighttime or being
able to have a job that has youout, you know, doing public
transportation late at night,like how much, how many
(37:24):
limitations so many women haveto put on our lives to try to
just keep our bodies safe andour bodies not target for others
.
And then that the place that itmost shows up and is our most
intimate interactions withothers, or specifically in this
case, with men and men notrealizing it's such a basic
level.
What a freaking gift that is Ifwe are in that moment and are
(37:47):
trusting them with our bodiesand with our naked bodies, and
to be able to share thisexperience together.
Like, please, like.
Take it to heart, like whatthat means if she's trusting in
this moment and that you play amassive role in deserving the
respect of that level of trust.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Right, it is something where you should feel
honored, right, like honored toget to go there and to not be
taken for granted.
And the other thing men need tohear, like talking about that
guardedness, that women alwayshave a certain level, and you
didn't bring up and I know thatpart of that is many, if not I
(38:31):
would venture to say most of ushave been sexually assaulted or
sexually traumatized in some wayacross our life, if not once,
multiple times on multiplelevels.
A big part of lack of arousalis our bodies are guarded right
down to our vagina.
When the vagina doesn't want toget aroused, turned on, open up
(38:56):
or wet, it's because it'strying to protect anything from
entering it, including sexualassault.
So your job, if you want her tobe turned on, is to create that
safety and security and space.
Yeah, and that's not an easyjob.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
No, it requires a lot of mindfulness and appreciation
and space of patience and weknow the difference.
When somebody says, oh no, no,like this is all fun, we'll only
do what you want, and versus.
Really, when somebody's like,oh no, we'll only do what you
(39:37):
want, like you could feel thatdifference.
If somebody starts sort ofpushing or trying to take versus
, they really are just creatingthis container for you to be
together and let it floworganically.
One point I do want to make sureI make, just for anybody out
there who's listening, just tomake sure, like sometimes, when
folks experience sexual assaultor rape, their bodies do turn on
(40:00):
, their body physiologically,will respond to sensations.
That does not mean you want it.
That does not mean you'reasking for it.
That does not mean you want it.
That does not mean you'reasking for it.
That does not mean that you'rethere.
None of that.
None of that Like.
Sometimes our bodies do justrespond on our own, even though
the rest of it not at all.
So I just I feel like that getsused against women sometimes,
or even men sometimes that havebeen raped.
(40:20):
You'd be like you know what hegot a heart on, like he must
have really wanted it.
That's horrible and talking,walking around with folks and
then who feel like their bodybetrayed them or they can't
trust their own body, or maybethey really did want it or they
really did cause it.
I just I want to dispel anymisinformation around that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Right, and then because then there's also a lot
of guilt.
So another thing that is alibido killer for women is most
women are walking around withsome amount of guilt, whether
it's from sexual trauma, whetherit's from religious sexual
trauma, and there is so much ofthat.
That's a whole different topic,different topic Most women who
(41:05):
are involved in any kind ofreligion that's relatively
strict, which most of them are,are going to have a complicated
relationship with sex because ofall of the messaging around
there.
So all of those things, shameis definitely going to kill the
mood If you know your body getsturned on and then you're like
(41:25):
I'm a bad person because my bodyis turned on, which is a
message that's given to us.
So for partners, to women,whether it's you know, you're a
woman with a woman, or a man,especially a man, who's living a
totally different reality thanwomen, right, reality than women
(41:49):
, right, understand all of thesethings are in the way and if
you want to know how to light upher desire and we're not
talking about an instant fix, Ithink a lot of you just want
like a you know, give her a pillso she gets horny.
I want it now.
You know that's not going to.
That is not going to be the fix.
The fix is to begin to create asafe, shame-free place where
(42:09):
she can feel invited in by youand like she can enjoy things
with you without being punishedfor or judged for, guilted or
guilted for it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, and that's the starting point, and I think that
speaks to a lot of my publicspeaking.
That I do is on a big picture ofintimacy and like really what
that intimacy is, that we can,at its at its core is that we
can let our walls down, ourarmor down that we all have up
to protect ourselves, and we candismantle that and be our raw,
(42:44):
messy, beautiful humans that weall are and that we create the
space for someone to do the same, like that level of intimacy
that you're not being shamed,you're not being judged, you're
being seen and accepted andloved for who you are.
And I think that's at the coreof being able to be again in a
human body that's alwaysshifting and changing, but still
(43:04):
wanting to connect sexually.
We need that level of intimacyand creating that safety for
each other.
And that doesn't just start,you know, when you're climbing
into bed together, but that'sall day long.
You know, because if you'veshamed or judged your partner
for something else ordisrespected them or yell, you
know we're yelling at them.
All of those things,particularly for women, like you
said it just it shuts us down.
(43:25):
It shuts us down from our headdown to our vaginal openings.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, all of it.
Yeah, I was just sitting herethinking that kind of another
place that partners can helpwomen, because women really have
been taught not to prioritizetheir sexual, their sensuality,
especially after having children.
But generally speaking, that'ssupposed to be put in a corner.
(43:52):
If you want to start, you know,creating a more mutual,
mutually aroused, you know,relationship with your partner
is supporting her inprioritizing her sexual energy,
her relationship with hersexuality, her like value of
(44:16):
pleasure, experiencing pleasure,chasing it, learning about it.
You know, having starting thoseconversations like how do you
feel, do you feel sexy?
How do you feel about gettingsexy?
What can I do to support that?
Yeah, what does sex mean to you?
Yes, like simple conversationslike that.
(44:36):
Yes, and make them fun.
Conversations Like sex talkwith your partner is fun.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Ideally.
But if you've had years ofresentment, hurt feelings,
rejection, guilt, feeling brokenself-worth and self-esteem,
concerns, feeling pushed,feeling obligated, all of that
makes it not fun.
Sensual intimacy or sexualintimacy is once a week schedule
(45:08):
, something I like to call ahappy naked fun time, where you
block off just 45 minutes.
But you know, once a weekyou've got this blocked off time
and you're very intentionalabout making it a time that you
aren't interrupted by technology, aren't interrupted by kids,
ideally don't have pets in theroom, because the number of
people whose dogs interfere withtheir sex lives seems really
high.
(45:29):
So you've blocked it off asthis time for you guys to
connect with each other, becauseso often for women right, first
of all, there's just not thespace dedicated to it and the
intentional space to be presentin her body and to be connecting
with her partner in that way.
But the and so you can planyour day around it too.
(45:51):
Like, let me, I feel betterafter I go for a jog, so I'm
going to make sure I block offsome time to make sure I
exercise today, and I feelbetter when I'm well hydrated,
so I'm going to make sure I takecare of myself.
I'm actually going to do alittle meditation.
So I feel grounded in my body,like all of those things are big
picture things that help womentake care of themselves, and
then sleep is a massive one.
(46:12):
So if women are able to takecare of themselves in all of
these ways, it's a lot easier tobe present in the moment and in
their body and open to sexualexperiences with their partners
and open to sexual experienceswith their partners.
But if their only time fortheir body each day is like the
quick shower you know that theytake, that they squeeze in
(46:32):
between things and then they're,you know, expected to spend 20
minutes with you of sexual time,so many women would rather be
like I would like those 20minutes of extra sleep.
I would like to read a pleasurebook for myself so I can
decompress.
So I would say so often,especially if a woman is the
lower desire person, if she'snot getting the self-care in
these other ways that really arenurturing and grounding and
(46:56):
good for her body, it's going tobe really hard then to take the
leap, the thing that's hard todo to try to get your body
feeling sexual when it feelslike you're doing it for someone
else, when you haven't eventaken care of yourself first.
So there's it, and that's goingto differ by each woman, but
yeah, so I would say, make surethere's other components, be
(47:28):
naked, fun time.
That really is about bringingyour bodies together to connect
and to relax and talk some aboutyour day and start touching
each other and massaging eachother then to allow the desire
or the arousal to start kickingin in your body, like creating
the space for it.
But it's a real fine line ofthen having the expectation,
because if the expectation isfor you to feel turned on and
aroused, that's performanceanxiety for men and women and
(47:51):
that can cause just a shutdownin our body, naturally knowing
what it's doing and taking overin those moments.
So, as the partner of somebodyin that situation, as the higher
desire person, as much as youcan do to really create, like we
said, these safe spaces withoutexpectations or taking anything
, so that her body can start toopen up and experience some
(48:15):
pleasure and connection and thenmove forward, then you know,
with your sexy time.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
So I love that idea.
I love that idea, all right.
So let's give, take the lastbit of time here to give our
listeners sort of a go pack.
They're going home tonight theyare having, after this
conversation, of a better ideaof what the arousal experience
is like for the woman in theirlife and maybe a better little
(48:45):
peek in at why she's just notgetting into the mood.
What are some things that youwould say my listeners can do
tonight to start shifting andchanging that arousal, closing
the gap and helping theirpartner get in the mood more
often?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, Well, I would look at and whether you're yeah,
whether you're the higherdesire higher arousal person or
lower, lower desire lowerarousal person, look at it in
three categories emotional,mental and physical.
And so because that's an easylittle, you know buckets to put
things in.
So the first place is like what?
What emotions are you feelingaround this?
(49:24):
Are you feeling guilty?
Are you around this?
Are you feeling guilty?
Are you feeling broken?
Are you feeling rejected?
Because if we have unidentifiedand unowned emotions, they will
wreak havoc under the surfaceof any conversation we're trying
to have or any relationship.
So first, shine a bright lighton that and I encourage folks
with the somatic aspect ofmindfulness to really figure out
(49:45):
where you feel those emotionsin your body, because often they
feel terrible and we've beenavoiding them.
So start there and do somebreathing into those emotions
and just build comfort withdiscomfort.
And then, in terms of themental component, I would start
writing down First of all, doyou have beliefs that you're
still carrying from childhood orteen years that are interfering
(50:06):
, like that you're not goodenough or women don't deserve
pleasure, and get clear on that.
So some journaling on that andthen write a list of questions
like what topics.
Am I avoiding?
What am I not facing?
What am I afraid to?
What do I want?
To ask my partner that Ihaven't, and just start getting
clear on all of that.
And then, in terms of thephysical aspect of it, we both
(50:27):
have components where we talk toour partner about what we like
or how we, like you know, wantthings to be initiated, or how
our pleasure may be changing.
And then we have components ofwhat I like to call priming our
own pump.
So, in particular with women,some of us have been taught that
it's someone else'sresponsibility to turn us on.
And so what does it look likeif we start priming our own pump
, which is listening to audioerotic stories to get things
(50:50):
turned on, or grabbing avibrator?
Or you know, I'm here as arepresentative, the sex and
relationship expert for PureLubricants that's been around
for 30 years with high qualitylubricants, and they've come out
with a new woman lust orgasmgel that they call, and it's
something you put on your vulvaor on your clitoris.
(51:11):
It kicks in very fast and youget this like tingling, warmth
sensation and only lasts for 15minutes gap between arousal and
the sensations in our genitalsand feeling turned on and
pleasurable sensations with ourbrain of being.
You know, because we talkedabout that early on, that we can
(51:31):
have that disconnect.
So playing with products likethat can help us feel more
centered around our vulva andour vagina and our clit and tune
into those sensations so thatwe do know that I am a sexual
woman.
This does feel good.
I have a right to experiencepleasure, but sometimes that,
you know, takes some creativityto be able to explore that in
(51:53):
new ways.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
There you go, guys.
You got a nice big go pack forgetting started tonight.
It's.
You know there isn't a quickfix to this.
I mean there are some littlethings you can do.
You know there isn't a quickfix to this.
I mean there are some littlethings you can do, like you've
got the arousal gels that giveyou that sort of give you that
you know, window of time toreally work, work, some magic.
(52:15):
And I've got a lot of how to'son that and toy recommendations
for that.
But there is a bigger picturehere, picture here, and the only
way that arousal gap is goingto close is if everybody,
regardless of gender, starts towork on it together.
Yeah, I mean, that's got tohappen.
So, guys, if you want to getlaid and I know you do I know
(52:40):
you got to pitch in here right,because when you do meet and get
to be with a woman who is ableto really embrace and embody her
pleasure and sexual energy,that's a different experience
and one you're going to want tohave again and again, and every
woman has a right to that.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, I, yeah.
I think you summarized itbeautifully that we're we're in
this together, but that meanshonoring that everybody's
different and things areshifting and that's not bad or
wrong.
How do you be a compassionate,creative team around it?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Is there something in it for everybody?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Also remember.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I hear oftentimes, and I see comments oftentimes
from men who are like why is itall about the women's pleasure,
why is it all about what womenwant?
And it's really not right.
The reality is men get arousedeasier.
The reality is men get offeasier.
Yeah, it's all about making anequal pleasure-filled situation
(53:48):
experience and the benefit isfor everybody, right, everybody
gets something out of it.
This is a win-win.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
I promise you a win-win for everybody, right and
if we're not intentional aroundwomen's desire and and pleasure
and arousal and orgasm, it'smuch less likely to happen, like
that's just a physiological,societal reality.
Yeah, and most sexualencounters, heterosexual
(54:16):
encounters, still revolve aroundintercourse with penetration by
a penis and a penis that has anorgasm.
That is still how we define sexin general in a mainstream
definition.
So if we are not payingattention to how women
experience arousal and pleasuredifferently than men and how
(54:37):
it's such a variety within women, it's way way less likely to
happen.
So intentionality andcommunication, and we can't make
assumptions and we need to bewilling to have these awkward
conversations because they canbe awkward but embrace the
awkward.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Right, and you know you could make it a less awkward
conversation to just send yourpartner this episode.
There you go.
We did all the work for you,that's right.
Just have her start writingdown which things apply to her
and then you've got your go.
You got your little go list andknow what to start working on.
You're welcome, our job is donehere, that's right.
(55:15):
And on that note, will you tellmy listeners where they can
find out more about you, reachyou, listen to you after they
finish this episode?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, my main hub for all my stuff is my Dr Jen's Den
website, so it's drjennsdencom.
But what I tell folks, just gointo Google, type any version of
spelling of Dr Jen's Den andsex and you will find me.
And so you'll find my website.
And that's my hub for podcasts,two TEDx talks, my book that
came out about five, six yearsago just tons, tons of articles
(55:48):
and materials and videos.
So much from over the years.
I've been at this for a while.
And then please, finally, onsocial media, in particular
Instagram, dr Jen's Den, pleasejoin the conversations.
We started this in thebeginning.
We can never be talking aboutthese topics enough to normalize
and destigmatize and reduceshame and increase connection
(56:10):
and accurate information.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
That's right.
So if you've ever sat therethinking why can't I just want
sex like I used to, or why doesit feel like I'm always trying
to catch up, this is yourreminder that arousal is not a
light switch.
It's a process, a build, adance between your body, your
brain and your boundaries, andyou're allowed to take your time
(56:34):
.
Dr Jen, thank you so much forjoining me.
I know that my listeners aregoing to get a lot out of this
episode, and, listeners, if youhave any questions or comments
for me or Dr Jen, you know whatto do.
You can head over to my YouTubechannel at TalkSexWithAnnette
and you can drop a comment belowthe video.
If you are a listener on mypodcast, you can also just send
me an email at Annette atTalkSexWithAnnettecom.
(56:57):
You can scroll down to thespeak pipe link below and send
me a voicemail.
And if you are looking for awing woman, a cheerleader, if
you will, in your own pleasurejourney you know that my
coaching books are open you canget ahold of me the same way.
So hopefully tonight y'all willgo home and turn each other on
(57:18):
a little bit quicker, a littlebit more.
Tonight You're welcome anduntil next time, listeners, I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers, cheers.
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is the arousal gap whyshe's not turned on and how to
fix it.
Let's talk about that momentYou're naked, maybe making out
(01:06):
he's hard, about that momentYou're naked, maybe making out
he's hard in 30 seconds and youyou're still thinking about the
laundry or that annoying thinghe said three hours.
That just hit wrong.
Or maybe your body just hasn'tcaught up yet.
This is what we call thearousal gap, and if you've ever
felt broken because you couldn'tget there fast enough, this
episode is your reminder thatyou're not the problem.
(01:28):
Joining me today is thebrilliant Dr Jen Gonzalez, a
sociologist, intimacy coach,tedx speaker and host of Dr
Jen's Den.
She's here to break down thescience, the psychology and the
cultural bullshit that keepswomen disconnected from their
own desire.
So, whether you're the partnerwondering why isn't she into it?
(01:49):
Or the woman thinking whathappened to my libido.
This episode is for you, butbefore we dive in, I want to
remind you I'm over on OnlyFansand there I am sharing my sex
and intimacy how-tos,demonstrations and audio guided
self-pleasure meditations and somuch more to help you start
having better sex and intimacystarting tonight.
You can find me there and alsoover on Substack doing much of
(02:13):
the same under the handle atTalkSexWithAnEye.
You can also scroll down andyou're going to find all of the
links to anywhere you want tofind me below in the description
of this episode.
And now I want to hand the micover to Dr Jen Jen.
Can you tell my listeners moreabout?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, just in a nutshell.
The doctor part of it, like yousaid, is I'm a sociologist.
I have my PhD in sociologyspecializing in intimacy and sex
and sexual health andrelationships and communication,
and over the years, you know,my biggest passion has been
around reducing shame andrelationships and communication.
And over the years, you know,my biggest passion has been
around reducing shame and stigmaand misinformation, which there
(02:50):
is so much around still, whichis stunning to say in 2025.
So I've been doing this for 32years and increasing connection
and self-love and vulnerabilityand, you know, meaningful and
effective communication.
So I do that through.
I have a private practicerelationship and intimacy
coaching.
I travel around the world,public speaking to groups and
(03:13):
couples and retreats, writingvideo work, et cetera.
So cause there can never beenough of these conversations
out there.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
There can't.
And the more of us, the better.
And the more of us saying thesame things, the better.
So that some of you will startbelieving us, god damn it.
So I'm excited about thisconversation and folks, you know
why you need to stay to the end, because I am confident that
the vast majority of youlistening to me have encountered
(03:43):
this situation where, inparticular and this is for all
folks, I'm not just talkingabout heterosexual couples here.
You guys know I'm queer.
I have been in, I've been onthe side of not being able to
get excited soon enough.
I've been with partners whoidentify as women, who have had
a struggle getting that.
(04:04):
Y'all know I've got a heftysexual appetite, so we've all
kind of run into this issue.
But there is, in particular inheterosexual relationships
between men and women a moreextreme gap, especially at the
younger ages.
So we're going to help younavigate that, understand it, so
it's not personalized and feelslike an insult to one of you.
(04:26):
And we're going to give you ago pack, as always, by the end
of this podcast so that when youwant to get it on tonight
you're going to get closer tomaybe closing the arousal gap
and getting her off.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
I'm in Cheers.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I got my Wonder Woman mug right.
So, dr Jen, what is the arousalgap and why is it such a
universal?
It's a universal experience.
Right In my intro I was likeI'm pretty sure everyone
listening to this hasexperienced this.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, the main thing is, I mean, I think still and I
can mainly speak to Americansociety, but this seems to be
across the board our standard ofquote unquote, normal or what
things should be in a sexualencounter still is the male
standard in many ways, and andthen therefore anything that's
different than that then seemswrong or broken, which is not
(05:38):
the case, because that would be.
Majority of women's bodies arequote unquote, wrong or broken
in some way.
And the main aspect of thearousal gap is that men in
general can quickly get arousedin that they are getting blood
flow to their genitals andthey're having an erection just
a more straightforward path.
And there is a particularlydirect path for men around that.
(05:59):
And not that men don't strugglewith erections at all ages and
for various reasons.
However, at least in general,and that can be quite fast.
And then men know they'rearoused also because they've got
like.
They can feel it, they can seeit, versus women's bodies can.
It's not unusual for it to takeup to 20 minutes to get enough
(06:22):
blood flow to the genitals thatthings start to feel good, that
you get, you know, because theblood flow and then the vaginal
lubrication, all of that makesthings feel good versus feeling
like too much friction or toorough or the blood flow create
the plumpness too, like ifyou've ever.
You look at your own vulvabefore arousal and then, like 20
minutes into arousal, you'relike, oh, that is like a
(06:44):
blossoming flower down there.
It is blooming, it's such.
It changes colors, it becomes adeeper color and all of that in
general takes more time.
For women.
It depends on your age, howhydrated you are, where you, how
long you know if you're withsomebody new or if you're in a
long term relationship, how safeyou feel could be perimenopause
, menopausal so many differentfactors.
(07:05):
But in general it takes longerand as women we can't see it per
se Like when we're just likemoving about our day or even in
bed, like you really need to belooking down and paying
attention, and most of us aren'tdoing that.
So there's a time that it takesfor that blood flow and that
vaginal lubrication, and therecan be a disconnect between even
(07:28):
realizing that our body isturned on some.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
What do you think that disconnect is between the
brain and the body for women,who maybe their bodies are
starting to respond, but theirbrain doesn't register it?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, some of it is.
I mean because it is.
It's so subtle, like if we'regetting, you know, experiencing
vaginal lubrication.
We can't necessarily feel thatunless we've practiced really a
depth of mindfulness, bodyawareness, to be able to even
feel those little shifts.
So there's a, there's adisconnect and I only say
disconnect, at least compared tomen who have a very blatant,
(08:10):
you know, sign of arousal.
So in that case.
But I also think and this iswhere desire comes in, and often
desire and arousal are put intothe same bucket, but they're
very different systems and ingeneral arousal is easier to
understand, some because it'smore physiological desire.
We still don't understand allthat well, but that's not like
(08:31):
yearning, that, yearning forsexual connection or sexual
release or to experiencesomething that feels erotic,
versus again that likephysiological blood flow.
So, but I think that's a piece.
We can get that physiologicalblood flow, maybe something is.
We're watching some pornographyor something that is creating a
physiological response in us ata, at a very sort of base
(08:53):
animal level, but our brainisn't turned on, our emotions
aren't turned on, we're not.
So there can be a disconnect inthat way.
If we don't maybe like whatwe're seeing or it, it upsets us
in some way, or we're withsomebody and even if we're
starting to make out some and,and you know, maybe our bodies
and they're touching us and ourbodies turning on, but like in
(09:15):
our head, we're just stilldistracted.
So I just there's manycomponents of it psychological,
emotional, emotional,physiological and a complex
interplay between them.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Right.
Do you think women experiencethat arousal and the connection
between the brain, the body, theemotional piece as a more
complex experience than men?
Complex?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
experience than men.
If I had to say yes or no in ageneralization, I would say yes,
that there is an experience ofmore complexity.
However, again, you know,everything's there's so much in
the broad range of normal andwhat's natural, but at least
statistically I would say yes, Ido think there's a distinct
(10:05):
difference.
And then again, which is whythen I mean, you know, I've been
in this field for so long thenumber of women of all ages that
I've talked to and worked withindividually or in groups, who
think that they are broken insome way, that there's something
wrong with them.
You know, I published a book,like six years ago, and that was
one of my main points.
Like hey, no, here's all theresearch.
Like you are absolutely normal,like you are not broken, like
(10:28):
this is how our bodies workdifferently, and then this is
the bullshit you know weinherited from society.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So, yeah, I think it's a combination of factors,
but there does seem to be agreater complexity about that
societal piece, how shame playsinto our lack of ability to
become aroused quickly, and alsosort of the messaging we were
(10:54):
given about our arousal andpleasure.
From a very young age Iremember being told, as soon as
sort of sex ed started, that itwas very normal for some women
to never have an orgasm, thatthat was the norm.
And it was even more normalthat while I might experience
(11:17):
external pleasure, it was verynormal to never, ever experience
internal pleasure, normal tonever, ever experience internal
pleasure.
And so for me I was like,because I didn't experience any
pleasure at first, except forwhen I was alone, I was like, oh
okay, so I'm just going to beone of the women who don't
(11:38):
experience this kind of pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Oh wow, that's so interesting because so often I
feel like the messaging goes inthe opposite way, that you're
like, if you're not experiencingorgasm or pleasure, like
there's something wrong with youand you got the opposite, Like
hey, no, you might not andthat's normal, but then that
also set up, you know, aproblematic expectation and then
(12:02):
for yourself, I guess then noteven realizing that it could be
different for you and maybeshould be different quote,
unquote for you.
Is that what was your journey?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
I well.
I was frustrated because I alsohad a very high sexual appetite
from a very young age.
And so it was like why can I dothis with myself and not with a
partner?
I think there was also afeeling of, oh, I'm one of the
broken women who can't orgasm,and that's just like when I'm
(12:35):
with somebody and that's justhow it is Right.
And so good sex for me becamesomething else, and what it
became was sort of a scorecardof, oh, I can make him come the
fastest, or I like it wasperformative and it was almost
like a collection of I'm good inbed because I can please this
man so much, even though I'm notpleased by it.
(13:08):
And and then you know,entertaining myself in my head
while I was performing, because,because I wasn't enjoying it
Right, I was like, ok, and itwas yeah, and for me that was
good sex.
Oh, I made him come this fast.
Or oh, he thinks I'm so good inbed because I did X, y and Z.
It wasn't because this isbringing my body.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Right, but it was like disembodied good sex in one
direction.
Yeah, yeah, that's.
That's actually reallyinteresting.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for sharing that andsharing those details, because I
think you know, the longer I'min this field, the more sort of
endless nuances that I find, andthat even sometimes with the
best intent of educationalapproaches if you're really not
(13:42):
getting into the details ofteaching, like a woman, how to
know our body and like our bodyand explore our own bodies and
that the fundamental bottom linemessage is like you have a
right to your desire, you have aright to your arousal, you have
a right to your pleasure andnormalizing all of that.
And then each young woman andthen aging woman that always
knows at each stage of life thatlike, oh, yeah, this might
(14:05):
shift and change, but I have aright to this.
It's not going to look likeother people's because I'm
unique and but I could keepexploring this and that should
be the gold standard, but, yeah,it always still ends up in a
black and white, I think, evenwhen people are trying to give
space for flexibility.
It's interesting anddisheartening.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Another message that and a lot of my listeners have
this idea and thought andquestion there's a general
belief, especially from men whoare older, and I'm going to, so
I'm going to say I'm going topush the limit on this and say,
35 and up certainly 40 and upthat women, once they're past 35
(14:45):
or 40, no longer have a libido,no longer want sex and no
longer enjoy sex and just don'tget turned on.
And and I, like studies don'tactually show that that's true.
I don't believe that's true.
I certainly am not experiencingthat myself.
(15:07):
I'm like, fucking turned on allthe time.
Body is a little out of controlthese days.
I work hard for it though.
I work hard for it.
All right, guys, my job's tough, my job stuff, but I do put a
(15:28):
lot of effort into, likeenjoying and maintaining my
sexual self and and then usingit to empower the rest of my
life.
But can you talk about that?
Can you talk to my listenersabout women's arousal ability to
get aroused libido?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Later in life.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, and so I mean I would say the main big factors
that we're more likely to see 40and beyond is one, folks are
more likely in long-termrelationships.
And two, you've gotperimenopause and menopause.
So one is a very like you know,relational, sociological, but
(16:05):
also physiological that when weare with the same person time
and time again in a monogamousrelationship, women more likely
statistically are to see adecline in their desire.
And then if you have a declinein desire that can go hand in
hand with the decline in arousal, or it's just harder to even
get to the arousal part becauseyou're not interested in sex and
(16:26):
all.
So that's a very real thingthat can be at that time period.
And then the other piece is theperimenopause and menopause,
which are very real hormonalshifts and hormonal shifts
specifically that impact thevulva and the vagina, the
urethra.
That is, the shift in thetissue that it becomes much
thinner and more brittle andyou're not getting blood flow in
the same way You're not getting, with the drop in estrogen,
(16:49):
you're not getting vaginallubrication on your own also.
So those are very realphysiological shifts.
And then sort of emotionalrelational shifts that can lead
to physiological shifts.
That can lead to physiologicalshifts.
You take though one of thosewomen maybe out of her regular
life and plop her into a contextwhere she, you know, is relaxed
(17:10):
and getting sleep and doesn'thave kids around and is enjoying
herself, or is on vacation andhas hot young things hitting on
her, like the likelihood ofexperiencing some desire and
arousal is absolutely stillthere.
So I do think there's very real, you know, contextual factors
that impact women in midlife.
(17:32):
I also think you know, the morethat we're talking about
consent and boundaries, the lesswomen are willing to put up
with bullshit and going along todo things just for obligation
sake.
So, yeah, and then I'd throwinto also, like I said, it's not
uncommon for one or both peoplein a long-term relationship to
experience a drop in theirdesire, and I think we just we
(17:57):
don't know what to do with thatbecause we're never.
we only have the Hollywoodversion of of desire and
overwhelming arousal and orgasmand everybody's easily orgasmic
and none of that is real in mostlong term relationships, let
alone with how our lives aredesigned, with so much work and
(18:17):
driving kids everywhere andgoing to school and making ends
meet and taking care of a houseand not getting enough sleep,
and then basically, technologyinterferes with everything.
So there's so much about likeour lifestyle factors of also
the nuclear family that's justone family taking care of a
whole household and all the kidsand everything that doesn't at
(18:38):
all aid in desire and, frankly,even closeness for couples,
again with your contexts thatare necessary to be able to jump
into things and then give yourbody a chance to get aroused and
turned on.
So does that answer yourquestion?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It sounds like context is a big piece for women
.
What their surrounding is whattheir lifestyle is like, how
their partner treats intimacyand approaches intimacy.
It should not be that a womanhas to be on vacation in order
(19:16):
to have the space to light updesire.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
I was just going to say but that is, that is our,
that is our current life andtechnology, while it's supposed
to make things easier,absolutely makes it more hectic.
And we're just on call 24-7.
That's not good for our nervoussystems, that's not good for
our relationships, it's not goodfor marriages, it's not good
for parenting, it's just notRight.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Right, but men still are able to maintain sort of a
quick arousal.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
men don't necessarily have the same problem, correct,
right, and I do.
Some men, some men, if they'reunder high stress, you know, or
they've drank a lot, and thenoften then, once you've crossed
50, you know, because you'll getless blood flow, there'll be
some hormonal shifts, so, but ingeneral, men do tend to keep
higher desire levels and thenmore quick arousal.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, in their bodies , because we are wired, men tend
to prioritize their sexualappetite and I think that that
has a lot to do with our societyputs a lot of value on a
(21:11):
sexually virile man who has sexwith lots of women and it makes
him like a desirable man,whereas you know, and I'd like
to think, things are shifting.
For Gen Z and youngergenerations, but certainly
millennials and beyond, womenwho desired sex and have sex
(21:35):
with lots of people or go aftersex or have sex with younger
people are considered horrorsand dirty and to lose value.
Right, that's the message atleast the red pill men out there
are trying to push that a womanwho loves sex and wants to have
sex or at least enjoy sex withmultiple people loses her value.
(21:58):
And so you know, it only makessense that if you are getting
that message and then you'restruggling with context and in
your life, all the crazy thingsyou have to take care of, and
then a long-term relationshipwith a partner who doesn't know
how to build space in forarousal, that you would devalue
(22:20):
even trying to address it as youget older, and it would feel
like relief to throw the wholefucking thing out the door and
say I'm done with this part ofmy life.
It's been so stressful, I justdon't want to deal with it
anymore.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yes, and I think that's important, that you're
saying that hopefully we reallyare seeing generational changes
around that, that with theyounger generations and at least
on social media, that there ismore of a normalization that
everybody's sexual, everybodyhas a right to be sexual,
everybody has a right to put upboundaries, to ask for what you
want, to say yes, to say no, toexplore, regardless of gender.
(22:54):
We are seeing shifts in that,although, frankly, that stuff
never seems to stick for women,not in a way that's actually
embodied and empowering forwomen, right, it still can often
be that sort of performanceaspect of it.
So, but certainly, yeah, theolder generations, and I would
say particularly maybe 40 womenthat are 45 or 50 and older,
(23:15):
really did grow up with the youknow, the biggest stigma you
could have in high school, whichis probably still there that
was to be labeled a slut or awhore, and it didn't matter if
you were actually even sexual atall, it would just be.
If it's attached to you, thenyou are belittled and degraded
and people feel like they have aright to treat you badly.
So that is still, and that issomething that, as women, we
(23:38):
tend to carry throughout ourlifetimes and I do think that
absolutely, those societalmessaging and that shame around
it and that right there's,there's shame if you're not
sexual enough and their shame ifyou're too sexual, and then
there really is no you knowright middle place.
It's only defined by otherpeople and how they judge us.
So, yes, those, I think thosesocietal factors are massive.
(24:01):
I think those societal factorsare massive.
One thing that's a shift that,particularly around menopause
for women, maybe early to mid50s, if, depending on how the
hormonal shifts, where a womansort of ends up around her, her
desire, there can be a shift inthe opposite direction.
(24:21):
I see this with so many womenthat they're like I'm, I'm, I've
taken care of all y'all.
My whole life I prioritizedyour need, I've cooked you meals
, I've driven you places.
You're off to college.
Now I don't want to take careof any children.
They get divorced or theyseparate and just sort of get
their own home and live theirown lives.
Or they start traveling morewith girlfriends and they might
(24:44):
be and they're trying vibratorsfor the first time and they're
grabbing lube and they arefeeling a freedom to explore,
even though that was nevertaught to them growing up.
But there's something, and Itruly think it's a shift of like
that you're not.
You know you aren't.
Mainly women aren't mainlydefined through their familial
roles.
But I also think it's a shift,and it's the drop in estrogen
(25:06):
that that makes us more want tobe caretakers and connect, and
that women are like F you.
It's not about you anymore,it's about me, and for some
women that can be then startingsexual exploration in a way
they've never done before.
And there's and there's so muchwell, there's so much Well,
(25:32):
there's so much.
That's changed in decades sincemaybe before, when they were
exploring at all but there'sjust this new like you know, I'm
not, I'm not.
I don't want to deal withsocietal bullshit, standards
anymore, or judgment of my body,or my body doesn't look good
enough, or I gain some weightand that means I'm less valuable
.
You know F you.
This is about me.
This is about me taking care ofme.
It's about not about me lookingpretty for you or taking care
(25:53):
of you or doing anything for you.
So that shift is an interestingthing to watch, especially now
that menopause and perimenopausetruly have become hot topics
pun intended and that we're justgetting so much more education
around it and normalization ofthese topics and the shifts for
women's bodies and the aspect ofhow important sexual health is.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I think there is a shift.
I think that people in our agerange, I would say and 40 and up
, maybe late 30s even, are womenare waking up to 30s.
Even our women are waking up toI want my life, I want to feel
sexy again, I want to have goodsex again, I want to do some
crazy kinky things.
You know, I want to do thethings and they're hearing more
(26:36):
about it because theseconversations are becoming more
mainstream, whether societywants them to or not, and I know
right now in America, this isnot what America wants to hear
happening.
But fuck you, we're going to doit anyways.
Right, and I'm certainly.
I feel very blessed.
I'm in a sex positive community.
(26:57):
I have been given sort of thekeys to the golden gate of like
fun sexual experimentation, anda lot of that is facilitated by
age and being like oh, now I'mdisregarded because I'm 40.
Well, I guess I can do whateverthe fuck I want.
I've gone and done it and thensome right, yeah, and then also
(27:17):
I think it's great.
This is a great segue into whatdo we do about the arousal gap?
And you bring up menopause andlook, the arousal gap can happen
really at any time in life.
But something to help us segueinto like, what do we do about
it?
Obviously, there's a big partof that that happens in the 40s.
(27:38):
There's a significant shift andfortunately, menopause and the
studies and the work and thetreatments for it are finally
being addressed in a big way.
It's a hot topic.
There's a lot of pressure tofigure it out for women.
Women are like why has nobodyhelped us with this?
(28:00):
You know, it gives you a littlemore compassion for our mothers
and grandmothers who are like apain in the ass at this time in
their life right.
Because they didn't get the help.
Like I was miserable whenmenopause kicked in but I was
aggressive in figuring out likehow I was.
Like I cannot function likethat.
There are treatments for it.
There are multiple avenues withhormone regulation, hrt, all
(28:26):
sorts of different treatmentsthat women can seek now to find
balance, and in that balance youcan even kind of knock up your
libido, potentially get a littlekick to your sex drive and
arousal.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I'm a little spicy these days.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You've got the arousal gap, guys, you know what
we're talking about.
You are wanting to get some.
She is doing everything she canto avoid you.
She is doling out obligatorysex once a month, maybe once
every other month, because sheknows she has to.
She looks away while you poundaway at her and it makes you die
a little inside every time.
(29:00):
I understand this is horriblefor everybody.
So how do we start to addressthe arousal gap?
Can we start knocking off someof the things women can do,
couples can do to address ittogether?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean the first two places my head went is
one I feel like we still don't,particularly for women in
long-term relationships.
We're not necessarily talkingabout pleasure and really at the
core, and how pleasure?
Because if our bodies arealways changing and our hormones
are always changing, and ifyou've given births and let
(29:37):
alone perimenopause andmenopause, that means our
physiology is always changing.
So then our access to desirewill shift and change and
sometimes there's a grievingprocess that what used to be
easy or fun or would easilybring you to orgasm, like
doesn't work anymore.
It doesn't work in the same way.
So my first thought is like,well, if you're not experiencing
(30:00):
much pleasure, then right,you're not going to want to keep
seeking out a sexual encounter,let alone if you're
experiencing pain.
There's a whole nother levelbecause you know it is wired in
our bodies as animals that ifsomething brings about physical
pain generally we want to avoidit because you know it doesn't
seem right for us.
(30:20):
So that piece of justnormalizing that like yeah, what
feels pleasurable shifts andchanges over time and maybe it's
a little like harder to accessor create, requires more
creativity.
So that's one thought and youknow, treat your body like a
playground, like going a littlenooks and crannies and move
(30:40):
around and try different toys.
Like I said, try differentlubes and different body parts,
from your neck to your nipplesto you know your mouth and your
tongue and you know your innerthighs and your vulva and all
around and the entrance to yourvagina and around your clitoris
and the entrance to your anusand inside, like all of that,
(31:02):
has so many nerve endings andmaybe what used to work doesn't
work anymore.
But if you can be exploratoryand open minded to that of
playing with your body in newways, you might find new ways
that bring pleasure.
So one that's, and that's thephysical pleasure.
But the other aspect ofpleasure is like our brains
still really are our biggest sexorgans in so many ways.
(31:23):
So do play with listening toaudio erotic apps and those
amazing stories that are verysexy, and you could choose them
in genres that you want so thatyour, your brain's getting
kicked in and releasing some ofthose neurochemicals.
That's kicking off some desireand kicking off some arousal for
yourself.
So the first one is is awarenessand creativity around pleasure.
(31:44):
And then the second one is likewe need to be talking about
these things and with ourpartners.
So you know, specifically in along-term relationship, the
number of couples.
You know, I heard a gentleman awhile ago.
He was maybe in his early 60sand I was talking about
menopause and menopausal changesto women's bodies and that it's
common that if they're notgetting any sort of hormone
(32:06):
replacement that they mayexperience pain during
intercourse.
He was stunned like didn't knowit, didn't know that was a
thing, and they didn't know thathis wife was probably silently
suffering.
And so I was like, oh like, andthen felt terrible, you know,
and it felt terrible and thenwas like did I not create a safe
space for her to talk aboutthat?
I didn't even ask, I didn'tknow to ask.
(32:27):
I mean, I'm a big fan of weeklycheck-ins and monthly check-ins
for couples, like when I docoaching with couples and it's
different for each couple.
But if you have some topic thatyou've been avoiding and it's
(32:50):
just getting brushed under therug, brushed under the rug, make
sure you create little chunksof time, even just 15 minutes
once a week, to be talking aboutthese things.
And I, you know, and it couldbe, you know, make up a list of
10 different components of yourbody that maybe sometimes feels
pleasure or used to, and justdiscuss how it's changed.
You know, just or get one ofthose boxes of questions around
sexual questions, or there's somany ways.
There's a lot of tools outthere to help structure a
conversation, but just starthaving the conversation and
(33:12):
normalize that.
You are talking about your body,you're talking about these
vulnerable topics that maybe youfeel shame about or you're
afraid of being judged for,you're afraid of being rejected
for, or you're afraid of notdoing it right and you're going
to make your partner feel shamedor rejected.
We just these these hardconversations about vulnerable
topics, but they're generally atthe at the core of them.
(33:34):
Why they're so important isthat there's some need that's
not being met and it could beemotional, mental, physical,
sexual.
But start creating a contextwhere you are normalizing the
discomfort of having theseconversations so over time, you
start to feel more comfortablewith it.
So just start by havingconversations and then, by bit
by bit, you're going to becreating this ongoing space that
(33:56):
you can bring up these topicsand then figure out how to be a
team together, because that is Imean if you want to be one of
those couples that in your 50s,60s, 70s, 80s, you look back and
you're like.
Well, our bodies don't looklike they used to and they don't
function in the same way, but Ifeel closer to you and more
loved by you and more seen andunderstood and connected and
(34:17):
intimate with you than everbefore.
You need to be talking andworking as a team to get there.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Right, I think one of the coolest things I've really
learned in the last year and ahalf is how like turned on
compassion from my partner andsweetness and interest in seeing
my not only my pleasure.
(34:46):
I think sometimes men especiallyget focused on I want to see
you have pleasure.
But what turns me on as apartner who is like I want to
see you have peace and to feelsecure and to know that I'm here
and boy, and to know that I'mhere and boy, she gets wet like
(35:08):
that when I have a conversationwith a partner.
I recently was able to just sayto a partner after kind of a it
wasn't a hard conversation, itwas something that triggered
anxiety in me.
I was able to say I know thisis my stuff, but I'm feeling
kind of anxious right now aboutsecurity in our relationship and
I'm like would you be willingto help me feel more secure?
(35:32):
And he was like right there.
He was like, yeah, I'mabsolutely like I could hear him
lock in.
He just locked right in and waslike yeah, let's talk.
And there like seriously, itcould have brought tears to my
eyes.
It wasn't that it could have,it did.
It brought tears to my eyes andmy heart to swell.
(35:52):
Because it's like that's thekind of stuff that really
connects a woman to you andgives her starts.
Talking about context, givesher the space Peace will give
her the space to open up, andI'm saying open up everywhere
we're talking about all holesopening up right.
Seriously, and I don't think alot of guys know that.
(36:14):
I think at a young age we getinto this idea that arousal and
interest is in this cat andmouse push and pull like keep
her on the edge, so she'sinterested.
Keeping someone on the edge isanxiety.
Anxiety may be exciting atfirst but it's depleting and
(36:35):
eventually it does the opposite.
Right Anxiety not a libidobooster.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
No, I think it's yes.
I think you've stated that sowell, and every once in a while,
I get on a soapbox for myselfif I'm talking to a man in my
life and I'd be like I don'tthink you guys understand how,
from such a young age, mostwomen gosh.
This makes me want to cry.
Saying this most women movethrough this world in a way that
(37:02):
people are trying to takesomething from our bodies and or
they are trying to hurt us orthey're trying to take something
sexually, that it is somethingthat they want from us or that
they want to harm us in some way.
And so the lack of safety ofwalking at nighttime or being
able to have a job that has youout, you know, doing public
transportation late at night,like how much, how many
(37:24):
limitations so many women haveto put on our lives to try to
just keep our bodies safe andour bodies not target for others
.
And then that the place that itmost shows up and is our most
intimate interactions withothers, or specifically in this
case, with men and men notrealizing it's such a basic
level.
What a freaking gift that is Ifwe are in that moment and are
(37:47):
trusting them with our bodiesand with our naked bodies, and
to be able to share thisexperience together.
Like, please, like.
Take it to heart, like whatthat means if she's trusting in
this moment and that you play amassive role in deserving the
respect of that level of trust.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Right, it is something where you should feel
honored, right, like honored toget to go there and to not be
taken for granted.
And the other thing men need tohear, like talking about that
guardedness, that women alwayshave a certain level, and you
didn't bring up and I know thatpart of that is many, if not I
(38:31):
would venture to say most of ushave been sexually assaulted or
sexually traumatized in some wayacross our life, if not once,
multiple times on multiplelevels.
A big part of lack of arousalis our bodies are guarded right
down to our vagina.
When the vagina doesn't want toget aroused, turned on, open up
(38:56):
or wet, it's because it'strying to protect anything from
entering it, including sexualassault.
So your job, if you want her tobe turned on, is to create that
safety and security and space.
Yeah, and that's not an easyjob.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
No, it requires a lot of mindfulness and appreciation
and space of patience and weknow the difference.
When somebody says, oh no, no,like this is all fun, we'll only
do what you want, and versus.
Really, when somebody's like,oh no, we'll only do what you
(39:37):
want, like you could feel thatdifference.
If somebody starts sort ofpushing or trying to take versus
, they really are just creatingthis container for you to be
together and let it floworganically.
One point I do want to make sureI make, just for anybody out
there who's listening, just tomake sure, like sometimes, when
folks experience sexual assaultor rape, their bodies do turn on
(40:00):
, their body physiologically,will respond to sensations.
That does not mean you want it.
That does not mean you'reasking for it.
That does not mean you want it.
That does not mean you'reasking for it.
That does not mean that you'rethere.
None of that.
None of that Like.
Sometimes our bodies do justrespond on our own, even though
the rest of it not at all.
So I just I feel like that getsused against women sometimes,
or even men sometimes that havebeen raped.
(40:20):
You'd be like you know what hegot a heart on, like he must
have really wanted it.
That's horrible and talking,walking around with folks and
then who feel like their bodybetrayed them or they can't
trust their own body, or maybethey really did want it or they
really did cause it.
I just I want to dispel anymisinformation around that.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Right, and then because then there's also a lot
of guilt.
So another thing that is alibido killer for women is most
women are walking around withsome amount of guilt, whether
it's from sexual trauma, whetherit's from religious sexual
trauma, and there is so much ofthat.
That's a whole different topic,different topic Most women who
(41:05):
are involved in any kind ofreligion that's relatively
strict, which most of them are,are going to have a complicated
relationship with sex because ofall of the messaging around
there.
So all of those things, shameis definitely going to kill the
mood If you know your body getsturned on and then you're like
(41:25):
I'm a bad person because my bodyis turned on, which is a
message that's given to us.
So for partners, to women,whether it's you know, you're a
woman with a woman, or a man,especially a man, who's living a
totally different reality thanwomen, right, reality than women
(41:49):
, right, understand all of thesethings are in the way and if
you want to know how to light upher desire and we're not
talking about an instant fix, Ithink a lot of you just want
like a you know, give her a pillso she gets horny.
I want it now.
You know that's not going to.
That is not going to be the fix.
The fix is to begin to create asafe, shame-free place where
(42:09):
she can feel invited in by youand like she can enjoy things
with you without being punishedfor or judged for, guilted or
guilted for it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, and that's the starting point, and I think that
speaks to a lot of my publicspeaking.
That I do is on a big picture ofintimacy and like really what
that intimacy is, that we can,at its at its core is that we
can let our walls down, ourarmor down that we all have up
to protect ourselves, and we candismantle that and be our raw,
(42:44):
messy, beautiful humans that weall are and that we create the
space for someone to do the same, like that level of intimacy
that you're not being shamed,you're not being judged, you're
being seen and accepted andloved for who you are.
And I think that's at the coreof being able to be again in a
human body that's alwaysshifting and changing, but still
(43:04):
wanting to connect sexually.
We need that level of intimacyand creating that safety for
each other.
And that doesn't just start,you know, when you're climbing
into bed together, but that'sall day long.
You know, because if you'veshamed or judged your partner
for something else ordisrespected them or yell, you
know we're yelling at them.
All of those things,particularly for women, like you
said it just it shuts us down.
(43:25):
It shuts us down from our headdown to our vaginal openings.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, all of it.
Yeah, I was just sitting herethinking that kind of another
place that partners can helpwomen, because women really have
been taught not to prioritizetheir sexual, their sensuality,
especially after having children.
But generally speaking, that'ssupposed to be put in a corner.
(43:52):
If you want to start, you know,creating a more mutual,
mutually aroused, you know,relationship with your partner
is supporting her inprioritizing her sexual energy,
her relationship with hersexuality, her like value of
(44:16):
pleasure, experiencing pleasure,chasing it, learning about it.
You know, having starting thoseconversations like how do you
feel, do you feel sexy?
How do you feel about gettingsexy?
What can I do to support that?
Yeah, what does sex mean to you?
Yes, like simple conversationslike that.
(44:36):
Yes, and make them fun.
Conversations Like sex talkwith your partner is fun.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Ideally.
But if you've had years ofresentment, hurt feelings,
rejection, guilt, feeling brokenself-worth and self-esteem,
concerns, feeling pushed,feeling obligated, all of that
makes it not fun.
Sensual intimacy or sexualintimacy is once a week schedule
(45:08):
, something I like to call ahappy naked fun time, where you
block off just 45 minutes.
But you know, once a weekyou've got this blocked off time
and you're very intentionalabout making it a time that you
aren't interrupted by technology, aren't interrupted by kids,
ideally don't have pets in theroom, because the number of
people whose dogs interfere withtheir sex lives seems really
high.
(45:29):
So you've blocked it off asthis time for you guys to
connect with each other, becauseso often for women right, first
of all, there's just not thespace dedicated to it and the
intentional space to be presentin her body and to be connecting
with her partner in that way.
But the and so you can planyour day around it too.
(45:51):
Like, let me, I feel betterafter I go for a jog, so I'm
going to make sure I block offsome time to make sure I
exercise today, and I feelbetter when I'm well hydrated,
so I'm going to make sure I takecare of myself.
I'm actually going to do alittle meditation.
So I feel grounded in my body,like all of those things are big
picture things that help womentake care of themselves, and
then sleep is a massive one.
(46:12):
So if women are able to takecare of themselves in all of
these ways, it's a lot easier tobe present in the moment and in
their body and open to sexualexperiences with their partners
and open to sexual experienceswith their partners.
But if their only time fortheir body each day is like the
quick shower you know that theytake, that they squeeze in
(46:32):
between things and then they're,you know, expected to spend 20
minutes with you of sexual time,so many women would rather be
like I would like those 20minutes of extra sleep.
I would like to read a pleasurebook for myself so I can
decompress.
So I would say so often,especially if a woman is the
lower desire person, if she'snot getting the self-care in
these other ways that really arenurturing and grounding and
(46:56):
good for her body, it's going tobe really hard then to take the
leap, the thing that's hard todo to try to get your body
feeling sexual when it feelslike you're doing it for someone
else, when you haven't eventaken care of yourself first.
So there's it, and that's goingto differ by each woman, but
yeah, so I would say, make surethere's other components, be
(47:28):
naked, fun time.
That really is about bringingyour bodies together to connect
and to relax and talk some aboutyour day and start touching
each other and massaging eachother then to allow the desire
or the arousal to start kickingin in your body, like creating
the space for it.
But it's a real fine line ofthen having the expectation,
because if the expectation isfor you to feel turned on and
aroused, that's performanceanxiety for men and women and
(47:51):
that can cause just a shutdownin our body, naturally knowing
what it's doing and taking overin those moments.
So, as the partner of somebodyin that situation, as the higher
desire person, as much as youcan do to really create, like we
said, these safe spaces withoutexpectations or taking anything
, so that her body can start toopen up and experience some
(48:15):
pleasure and connection and thenmove forward, then you know,
with your sexy time.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
So I love that idea.
I love that idea, all right.
So let's give, take the lastbit of time here to give our
listeners sort of a go pack.
They're going home tonight theyare having, after this
conversation, of a better ideaof what the arousal experience
is like for the woman in theirlife and maybe a better little
(48:45):
peek in at why she's just notgetting into the mood.
What are some things that youwould say my listeners can do
tonight to start shifting andchanging that arousal, closing
the gap and helping theirpartner get in the mood more
often?
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, Well, I would look at and whether you're yeah,
whether you're the higherdesire higher arousal person or
lower, lower desire lowerarousal person, look at it in
three categories emotional,mental and physical.
And so because that's an easylittle, you know buckets to put
things in.
So the first place is like what?
What emotions are you feelingaround this?
(49:24):
Are you feeling guilty?
Are you around this?
Are you feeling guilty?
Are you feeling broken?
Are you feeling rejected?
Because if we have unidentifiedand unowned emotions, they will
wreak havoc under the surfaceof any conversation we're trying
to have or any relationship.
So first, shine a bright lighton that and I encourage folks
with the somatic aspect ofmindfulness to really figure out
(49:45):
where you feel those emotionsin your body, because often they
feel terrible and we've beenavoiding them.
So start there and do somebreathing into those emotions
and just build comfort withdiscomfort.
And then, in terms of themental component, I would start
writing down First of all, doyou have beliefs that you're
still carrying from childhood orteen years that are interfering
(50:06):
, like that you're not goodenough or women don't deserve
pleasure, and get clear on that.
So some journaling on that andthen write a list of questions
like what topics.
Am I avoiding?
What am I not facing?
What am I afraid to?
What do I want?
To ask my partner that Ihaven't, and just start getting
clear on all of that.
And then, in terms of thephysical aspect of it, we both
(50:27):
have components where we talk toour partner about what we like
or how we, like you know, wantthings to be initiated, or how
our pleasure may be changing.
And then we have components ofwhat I like to call priming our
own pump.
So, in particular with women,some of us have been taught that
it's someone else'sresponsibility to turn us on.
And so what does it look likeif we start priming our own pump
, which is listening to audioerotic stories to get things
(50:50):
turned on, or grabbing avibrator?
Or you know, I'm here as arepresentative, the sex and
relationship expert for PureLubricants that's been around
for 30 years with high qualitylubricants, and they've come out
with a new woman lust orgasmgel that they call, and it's
something you put on your vulvaor on your clitoris.
(51:11):
It kicks in very fast and youget this like tingling, warmth
sensation and only lasts for 15minutes gap between arousal and
the sensations in our genitalsand feeling turned on and
pleasurable sensations with ourbrain of being.
You know, because we talkedabout that early on, that we can
(51:31):
have that disconnect.
So playing with products likethat can help us feel more
centered around our vulva andour vagina and our clit and tune
into those sensations so thatwe do know that I am a sexual
woman.
This does feel good.
I have a right to experiencepleasure, but sometimes that,
you know, takes some creativityto be able to explore that in
(51:53):
new ways.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
There you go, guys.
You got a nice big go pack forgetting started tonight.
It's.
You know there isn't a quickfix to this.
I mean there are some littlethings you can do.
You know there isn't a quickfix to this.
I mean there are some littlethings you can do, like you've
got the arousal gels that giveyou that sort of give you that
you know, window of time toreally work, work, some magic.
(52:15):
And I've got a lot of how to'son that and toy recommendations
for that.
But there is a bigger picturehere, picture here, and the only
way that arousal gap is goingto close is if everybody,
regardless of gender, starts towork on it together.
Yeah, I mean, that's got tohappen.
So, guys, if you want to getlaid and I know you do I know
(52:40):
you got to pitch in here right,because when you do meet and get
to be with a woman who is ableto really embrace and embody her
pleasure and sexual energy,that's a different experience
and one you're going to want tohave again and again, and every
woman has a right to that.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, I, yeah.
I think you summarized itbeautifully that we're we're in
this together, but that meanshonoring that everybody's
different and things areshifting and that's not bad or
wrong.
How do you be a compassionate,creative team around it?
Speaker 1 (53:20):
Is there something in it for everybody?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Also remember.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I hear oftentimes, and I see comments oftentimes
from men who are like why is itall about the women's pleasure,
why is it all about what womenwant?
And it's really not right.
The reality is men get arousedeasier.
The reality is men get offeasier.
Yeah, it's all about making anequal pleasure-filled situation
(53:48):
experience and the benefit isfor everybody, right, everybody
gets something out of it.
This is a win-win.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
I promise you a win-win for everybody, right and
if we're not intentional aroundwomen's desire and and pleasure
and arousal and orgasm, it'smuch less likely to happen, like
that's just a physiological,societal reality.
Yeah, and most sexualencounters, heterosexual
(54:16):
encounters, still revolve aroundintercourse with penetration by
a penis and a penis that has anorgasm.
That is still how we define sexin general in a mainstream
definition.
So if we are not payingattention to how women
experience arousal and pleasuredifferently than men and how
(54:37):
it's such a variety within women, it's way way less likely to
happen.
So intentionality andcommunication, and we can't make
assumptions and we need to bewilling to have these awkward
conversations because they canbe awkward but embrace the
awkward.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Right, and you know you could make it a less awkward
conversation to just send yourpartner this episode.
There you go.
We did all the work for you,that's right.
Just have her start writingdown which things apply to her
and then you've got your go.
You got your little go list andknow what to start working on.
You're welcome, our job is donehere, that's right.
(55:15):
And on that note, will you tellmy listeners where they can
find out more about you, reachyou, listen to you after they
finish this episode?
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Yeah, my main hub for all my stuff is my Dr Jen's Den
website, so it's drjennsdencom.
But what I tell folks, just gointo Google, type any version of
spelling of Dr Jen's Den andsex and you will find me.
And so you'll find my website.
And that's my hub for podcasts,two TEDx talks, my book that
came out about five, six yearsago just tons, tons of articles
(55:48):
and materials and videos.
So much from over the years.
I've been at this for a while.
And then please, finally, onsocial media, in particular
Instagram, dr Jen's Den, pleasejoin the conversations.
We started this in thebeginning.
We can never be talking aboutthese topics enough to normalize
and destigmatize and reduceshame and increase connection
(56:10):
and accurate information.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
That's right.
So if you've ever sat therethinking why can't I just want
sex like I used to, or why doesit feel like I'm always trying
to catch up, this is yourreminder that arousal is not a
light switch.
It's a process, a build, adance between your body, your
brain and your boundaries, andyou're allowed to take your time
(56:34):
.
Dr Jen, thank you so much forjoining me.
I know that my listeners aregoing to get a lot out of this
episode, and, listeners, if youhave any questions or comments
for me or Dr Jen, you know whatto do.
You can head over to my YouTubechannel at TalkSexWithAnnette
and you can drop a comment belowthe video.
If you are a listener on mypodcast, you can also just send
me an email at Annette atTalkSexWithAnnettecom.
(56:57):
You can scroll down to thespeak pipe link below and send
me a voicemail.
And if you are looking for awing woman, a cheerleader, if
you will, in your own pleasurejourney you know that my
coaching books are open you canget ahold of me the same way.
So hopefully tonight y'all willgo home and turn each other on
(57:18):
a little bit quicker, a littlebit more.
Tonight You're welcome anduntil next time, listeners, I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers, cheers.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.