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July 23, 2025 58 mins

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What happens when bad sex, emotional labor, and a complete lack of foreplay push you to swear off men altogether? In this spicy and unfiltered Pride Month episode, I’m joined by three of my closest queer friends to unpack a rising trend: women “coming out” after a string of terrible relationships with men.

We ask the big, controversial question: Can a man be so bad in bed that he turns you gay?
Spoiler: it’s not that simple.

From religious shame and lesbian bed death to strap-ons, sex toys, and how emotional safety impacts arousal, we dive deep into the raw realities of sexual identity, relationship fatigue, and the fluid nature of desire.

You’ll hear:

  • Why some women say “never again” to men—and mean it
  • The difference between being queer and just being tired of bullshit
  • One woman’s switch from dating only women to finding true safety with a man
  • How emotional intimacy and creativity in bed make or break attraction
  • And what men actually need to know if they’re worried about their partner leaving them for a woman

Whether you’re a man wondering what not to do, a queer woman navigating your own desires, or just someone curious about how love, lust, and fluidity collide—this episode is for you.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if

(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annettetopic is how my ex-boyfriend
turned me gay.
All right, folks, everybodyknows that, especially since the

(01:04):
pandemic, there has been a slew, if you will, of women coming
out late in life as lesbian,bisexual, queer basically, and
there is an idea going aroundthat the men that they dated
turned them gay.
And sometimes they'll say thisrelationship or the

(01:28):
relationships I've had with menhave turned me off so much that
I'm doing women now.
Well, today on this podcast, Ihave two women who have had such
experiences and we're going toget down to the bottom of the
truth.
Can a boyfriend be so shittythat he makes you gay?

(01:52):
But I've got a little twist onthis topic.
I actually also have a womanhere who has in the past,
identified as a lesbian and nowis dating a man.
So we're really attacking thistopic from all angles.

(02:12):
I'll also, of course, share myexperience, but we're going to
talk about can someone turn yougay or straight or whatever it
is you identify as, but has youfucking something different than
you used to?
I know you all want to know andwith me, I'm very lucky.
It is Pride Month here inPortland, oregon, and I've got

(02:35):
my closest friends with me andthese three ladies are going to
discuss this topic with you guystoday and I'm going to let them
tell you who they are.
And I'm going to start with oneof my very good friends, Lydia,
who's from Palm Springs.
I met her at the Dinah AquareWomen's Event Festival last year
and she is here with me today.

(02:56):
Lydia, do you want to tell mylisteners a little bit about you
?

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Hello, thank you so much for having me, annette.
I am so thrilled to be here.
My name is Lydia and, likeAnnette said, I am from Southern
California, raised there.
My pronouns are she, her, and Idefinitely identify as bisexual
, but I have a lot to share withhow my experiences with men

(03:20):
have led me to be more investedin women.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
And then another good friend of mine is here today
who has been on other pastpodcast episodes, especially in
our early days.
A flash to the past is Bubbles,aka Chrissy.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yes, I think I was on some Locker Room Talkin' Shots
podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Before the podcast became Talk Sex with Annette.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
I was MIA due to a relationship with said man that
turned me gay.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
And can you tell everybody a little bit about you
?
You?

Speaker 1 (03:51):
are.
I am, I guess, queer, queer, Idon't know, Leaning towards gay
Leaning towards lesbian Prettylesbian, although I still find
men attractive.
I just don't know if I want tofuck any of them.
Why do we call her bubbles foxybubbles?
If you will, I blow giantbubbles.
You can find me on all of themedias as foxy bubbles that's

(04:14):
right.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Oh, bubbles is now on the bubble of finding out
whether she is a lesbian orstill just queer.
And then my third friend, whohas joined us today and is
actually the lesbian turned Wellwe'll find out, Not lesbian
Erin.
Can you tell everybody aboutyou?

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Yeah, I'm Erin, she, her or they, them.
I identify as pansexual and didoriginally identify as bisexual
when I came out at 14, but feltmore lesbian because I hadn't
explored with men until my likemid-20s and so that's where that
kind of came from.
So I wouldn't say that I had agirlfriend.

(04:53):
That was so bad that I ran backto men necessarily, but it just
is.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
My attraction to people has very little to do
with their anatomy and so thisis just how it happened, right,
and we will be talking aboutthat journey.
So why do you want to stay tothe end, folks?
Well, first of all, if you're aguy, you probably want to know
how to not turn your girl gay,and we're going to help you with
that by maybe sharing lessonsthat got these gals to not want

(05:21):
to hook up with men anymore.
We're also going to be reallydiving into is it a myth?
What's the reality?
What's really happening here,through personal experience and
some facts, some science, if youwill as well.
So stay to the end.
Okay, guys, let's get ready totalk about how your exes turned
you gay or not, cheers hasturned you gay or not, cheers?

(05:48):
I'm going to start with my twofriends who started out
identifying maybe asheterosexual at some point, then
queer, then were with men andnow they're like no to the dick.
I want to start with you, lydia.
Can you tell me a little bitabout your experience at Venture
, if you will?

Speaker 3 (06:02):
All right.
So I was raised in anincredibly conservative church
family.
My father is still a pastor, soI was brought up being told
that really my body was to be inservice of a man and support my
husband and to have babies.
So when I found myselfattracted to women from a
younger age, I would justdismiss that because I was also

(06:24):
attracted to men.
But as I've gotten older I'verealized that a lot of the
things that didn't sit well withme with men women have
naturally that intimacy andthings like that.
I would say the number onething that made me want to go
more lesbian than away from menis that men's fear of using toys

(06:44):
in the bedroom.
Like you know, if your penisisn't a certain size, you know,
like, there I have one in thedrawer, you know, like, use it
on me.
And it was not anything that mypartners were ever open to.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
All right, let's dig in a little bit.
That was not what I thought youwere going to say,
interestingly enough.
So you're saying, basically,your sex life with the men is
what drove you to be like I wantto experiment with women, or?

Speaker 1 (07:13):
I want to be with women.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
I want to have sex with women because they were not
willing to use toys.
I mean, is that the root of it,or is it just that they aren't
willing to experiment and havesex in a way that goes beyond
the PNV?

Speaker 3 (07:31):
No, For me it was first of all like the intimacy
that women bring.
When you just have aconversation with a woman and
they look in your eyes andthey're listening, Like the men
weren't bringing that, and thenthe only thing they really were
bringing like I'm aself-financially sustained human
, so they're bringing the dick.
And if you're not willing tobring the other intimacy and

(07:52):
then you're not willing to alsobe willing to like give me what
I need sexually and whatever youcan, that's kind of what led me
to women, because women are somuch more open to like what do
you need?
How does that feel?
How can I make you feel better?

Speaker 2 (08:07):
So it sounds like it's a combination of the
emotional intimacy that youexperience with women and then
also the communication thattakes place in bed with a woman,
and the creativity that youfelt could come into the bedroom
easier, at least with a woman.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
in your experience it was also like safety in the
bedroom, because why a man wantsme to, you know, give him a
blow job and do all these thingswhich I'm supposed to be really
, really good at.
But then what about my needsand what about listening to what
I need?
And I just found that men werenot open to digging deeper into
that.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
So, yeah, so now she wants the pussy, I get it.
I get it, all right.
All right, chrissy, whatflipped your switch?
And I'm excited to talk aboutthis.
So, because, chrissy, this is anewer thing for you, and before
we move on to you, chrissy,lydia, how long ago did you make

(09:08):
this decision?
Move on from men to focus onprimarily on women?

Speaker 3 (09:13):
So I have not had sex in five years with a man.
I've had lots of sex by myselfand I fuck myself very well, but
it's it's.
I've always been bisexual, butI had to deconstruct that
indoctrination from religionbefore I felt healthy enough to
pursue a woman, because I didn'twant to be fucked up in my head
, you know, uh.

(09:33):
So now I'm finally at a pointwhere I'm able to do that do you
identify as a lesbian now orstill queer?

Speaker 2 (09:39):
did you set that at the beginning?

Speaker 3 (09:40):
so I can.
I, I'm queer, for sure.
I don't ever want to have sexwith a man again, especially not
so women have, uh, you know,autonomy over their body in
every fucking state.
So that's just something I'mnot gonna do.
You know, I'm more interestedin the female anatomy and I
never really I never likedgiving head, I never liked guys
like coming in my mouth oranything that just grossed me

(10:01):
out.
So yeah, I don't know if thatanswers your question.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's it.
Yeah, yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
So now, chrissy, this is newer for you feeling like I
might be gay, and your breakupwith your ex, who we've joked
about, but I think you also feela little bit like that
relationship might have been thecatapult if you will um, yes, I

(10:26):
was married for a long time andvery bisexual, and that
bisexuality lie dormant forquite a while and then, when it
resurfaced, I very much so hadtalks with my ex and he didn't
want to wrap his mind around it,even though he knew we got

(10:48):
divorced during COVID.
And then I was single for aboutnine months and I met this guy
on the river and was like alldickomatized for a while.
I mean, let's be real, the sexwas really good at first for a
while.
I mean, let's be real, the sexwas really good at first.

(11:09):
And then I moved him in andrealized that he was kind of a
narcissist and didn't reallycare about anybody but himself
and the sex wasn't good anymore.
And I did this for three years.
The last year was really shit.
There was a lot of emotionalabuse, zero intimacy.

(11:33):
Even when there was intimacy,he did not like to kiss,
foreplay was basicallynon-existent.
And I just kind of got to apoint to where I was kind of
like you, lydia, like what aboutme?
What about my needs?
Am I going to get to come?
Do I get a warm up before Imight potentially come?

(11:54):
No, and things got really badand we broke up.
I just I told him we got to areally bad fight probably two
months before we broke up and Ilooked at him dead in the eye
and I said I will never dateanother man after you.
And I just I don't look at menanymore and go, oh, I want to

(12:21):
fuck him.
Well, until kind of yesterday.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yesterday I was with Chrissy when a guy turned her
head and she lit up a little bit.
So it sounds to me, chrissy,like with you.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
I'm hearing some similar themes Lack of, let's
just say Creativity, dedication,dedication, intimacy, intimacy,
orgasm, orgasms of, let's justsay creativity dedication,
intimacy, orgasms, fun adventurelike any of it.
Anything that you're supposedto do with your partner was
non-existent, and what I did getwas very bare minimum.

(13:03):
I mean just beyond.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Bare minimum, I mean just beyond bare minimum, and
then also to like, withtechnology just becoming what it
is and all these amazingvibrators and toys and strap-ons
and everything Like.
If you're not bringingsomething to the relationship
besides your penis, I don't needyour penis anymore.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
He said he didn't want to desensitize me.
That's why he didn't want touse toys in the bedroom.
I don't want you to getdesensitized.
My dick and I was like but whatabout my pussy?
What about my pussy?
My pussy needs love.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Also as your resident sex and intimacy coach.
That isn't a real thing, toysdon't really desensitize your
clitoris or your pussy, so Ijust have to put that in there.
But so I'm hearing repeatedthings.
I would also like to interjectChrissy, as Chrissy's friend who
was with her as she was goingthrough this, and Lydia, you did

(13:55):
not mention this, but withChrissy's ex I would say there
was a lot of feeling like youwere his mom and not his
girlfriend, like taking care ofhim.
He moved into your place.
He didn't help clean up.
He didn't really do that.
That was a complaint.
I heard a lot that you weredoing the emotional labor of
trying to get him to open upplus the physical labor of of

(14:19):
momming him.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
I was basically a trad wife and a mom.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, I was basically a trad wife and a mom.
Yeah, having to take care of aman at, especially after 40,
you're like, come on, that takesaway my boner faster than
anything.
Right.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, all right.
So Aaron is a different story,so what I think I'm going to do
is, aaron, before talking aboutmy experience, I would like for
you to come in and share alittle bit of your own story and
how you have actually gone frombeing with a woman to having

(14:56):
found a beautiful relationshipwith a man, just because I think
it's a really nicejuxtaposition of experiences and
adds, I think, balance to theconversation.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
As I had mentioned, I had only my first girlfriend.
I was almost 16.
And it wasn't a consciouschoice to be like I'm just, I
prefer women.
It just was that as I wasmoving through the world and
relationships would end and Iwould be available again, I just
found myself.
I think it's that intimacy,like that connection, and that

(15:31):
intimacy was stronger with women, and especially I started
college at 17.
A lot of teenage boys were werereally like I just, I just want
to have sex with you, um, andI'm like, nah, I'm good, I just
I wasn't feeling it and so Iended up being like, I think
like early 20s, mid 20s, beforeI even gave guys a chance, and I

(15:54):
it honestly was.
From being in Las Vegas and inthe nightclub industry, I
actually got to see probablyalcohol induced, like liquid
courage, but a lot morevulnerability from men and that
actually piqued my interest.
I was like, oh, there'ssomething going on in there,
great.

(16:14):
That was my first experience ofmen kind of opening up and being
more vulnerable and in offeringthat level of intimacy, and yet
I still was like like, as faras taking that anywhere sexually
, but I had a real mix withwomen, like a lot of the things
that women are known to be like.

(16:35):
Oh well, women will do this andwomen like I had.
I dated a few women that weremore like dudes in the bed, um,
and I didn't realize that untilbeing with guys.
And then I was like, oh, I'veexperienced this before.
I mean kind of what Chrissy wastalking about, about like the
lack of foreplay or you knowthis, that and whatever.
And I felt in and in the malerelationships that I had, there

(17:03):
was this weird like men tryingto get used to our dynamic.
And what we figured out,because we didn't know what was
going on at first, is that, asfar as dating women, I'm a
switch, came to men because Ifound them a little bit like
well, you're new and differentfor me and so I was taking this
more top, like role with men.

(17:24):
Oh, and they were like what areyou doing?
Because I found that in datingmen and having I hung out with a
lot of men, but I found thatthe way that sex was spoken
about with my guy friends andjust with the men that I was
exploring, maybe dating, it waslike if they were pleasing me,
if they went down on me and theygave me an orgasm, like that

(17:45):
was their bravado, that wastheir like when they did that
for me but on the flip side, ifI were, you know, giving them
head, that that was also they'restill like in this dominant
like.
You're on your knees in front ofme and I was like, so when am I
in control?
And so that I introduced thatinto my first relationships and

(18:06):
there was a lot of kind of pushpull with me trying to find like
my authenticity in the bedroomand have that not intimidate men
that I was with and and thepartner that I have right now.
I am really grateful for theways in which I can move really
fluidly between that kind ofmore dominant topping space and

(18:33):
also just being a total pillowprincess, like being exhausted
and being like pillow princess,like being exhausted and being
like, yes, please me, thank you,I love that.
I'm really really grateful forhim and I'm also grateful that
he happens to be a him, becauseI think that I have gone through
like the lesbian bed deathwhere I've been in long-term

(18:58):
relationships with women, andthen it just like things dwindle
and with one of my partnersthey did later transition and so
that made a little bit moresense.
I was like, okay, like this alltracks more that not wanting to
be touched, not wanting to beintimate if you're not feeling
right in the body that you're.
In that that makes sense.
But there were other patternsof things like that.

(19:19):
In my last relationship with awoman I had been through sexual
trauma.
She had been through sexualtrauma.
They were just things that wewere trying to work through, but
more and more she is always myfamily.
But it became very platonic andit became very we're the best
of friends, we are roommates.
We no longer really knew how toconnect sexually and intimately

(19:42):
together on no fault ofanyone's.
We just were like how do weeven?
What do we?
Where do we go from here?
Like when you've fallen so faraway from it?
And so I've gone through periodsof celibacy in my life.
That was like an involuntaryperiod of celibacy and I think
that helped just open me up alittle bit more to the
possibilities of being with mycurrent partner, because it

(20:05):
wasn't so much like I don't wantto date women anymore.
It was just well, let me be.
I think I was a little bit moreopen to him than I would have
been at another point in my lifebecause it was like, okay, I've
done, I've explored this.
Because it was like, okay, I'vedone, I've explored this.
What does it look like for meto open this other door and see?

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Can I ask what I feel is an obvious question?

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, Do you miss fucking women?
I have to ask.
I have to ask.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
It's funny because Lydia just asked me that the
other day and my answer to thatis, at the moment, no.
No, I'm not going to tell youthat's not in my spank bank,
because it is, and my partnerlike knows and is fine with that
.
I'm like I can't control whatjust pops in here and what does
it for me.
But, I think that what's soawesome about my current partner
is that he really lets meexplore the different facets of

(20:58):
me, and so that part of me thatseems to come out more with
women, I'm allowed to explorebeing her and being that.
So do I miss women's body?
Absolutely.
Women are gorgeous, they aredelicious, they're amazing.
However, I think that in thistime in my life, I feel so

(21:19):
deeply satisfied and heard andsafe to just explore anywhere I
want to go, and there is thislike fluidity of our more
feminine traits, like what isconsidered more feminine, what
is considered more masculine,and a lot of just erasing those
expectations, and so I thinkthat that I don't want to say

(21:42):
curbs my appetite, but kind oflike that's a little bit.
Yeah, no, I think that in thismoment I'm always like can we
just check in later and see whatthis looks like for us in the
future?

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Right.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
But for now I just I feel more than content and
satisfied and heard and able toreally express those like when
you were saying, chrissy, likewell, what about my pussy?
Like there were definitelyrelationships that I was in
where I was like oh okay, we'redone like you don't care.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yeah, you don't care about what's happening with me,
right?

Speaker 4 (22:14):
and that's both men and women.
I felt like that occurred with.
So I feel like in, in being ina relationship where it's like
we don't even have intercourseuntil I've already come.
That just feels really honoring, like I don't.
There were other situationswith men where I felt like, oh,
you're basically using my bodyto get off right now.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Not cool.
What I think is kind of coolabout this conversation and the
word I heard you say that Ireally want to grab onto is
fluidity, and there are a highernumber of women going from
being heterosexual, seeming evenmaybe in their own mind, to
being like I suddenly think I'mqueer, and then becoming quote

(22:58):
late in life lesbians or late inlife queer women.
So I have known several womenwho identified as lesbians.
I only one, that is, you, whois now with a man, but I know
quite a few who let a dick slipin every now and then.

(23:18):
They don't admit to it either,but they do.
But I think this is you broughtup fluidity and I think that
what we're seeing here it ismaybe a little bit of a joke and
for some of us the whole myex-boyfriend turned me gay Some
of us really feel like it kickedoff that fluid change from I

(23:44):
like men, I'm attracted men tolike ugh, and if you think about
it in my mind from sort of apsychological standpoint, if
you're looking at like classicalconditioning right, the idea of
classical conditioning and ifyou are with someone who
identifies as man, who and youcontinually have bad experiences

(24:05):
, I can see how that then yourlikelihood of wanting to or
feeling good about the idea ofhaving sex with a man is going
to go down.
You're going to connect man withnegative feelings, whether it's
bad sex that was painfulbecause he didn't listen to you,
or heartache because of the wayhe treated you and so on, right

(24:29):
.
So I can see that actuallybeing something that might take
someone who's more fluid intheir sexuality whether they
know it or not or have admittedit to themselves or not, or have
explored it or not and kind ofkick them in the direction of
like.
I think I just want some pussyright now.
I think I just want to beintimate with women.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
I totally agree on it .
And something else I would liketo say to your listeners if
you're a guy and you're worriedabout losing your girl to a
lesbian, show up for her.
I really didn't need that much,you know.
But also taking into accountthat, for women like me who grew
up bisexual but in aconservative environment and
then now in my 40s I'veunlearned all that and now I'm

(25:15):
in my sexuality Like I'm notsaying I wouldn't have stayed
with one of my exes if theywouldn't have, you know, been
the way that they were.
However, like women andlesbians, like they've upped
their game with technology,right, they already knew how to
like, please a woman with mouth,oral and fingers and all that,
but then you have now all thistechnology to add to that.
Like, I think, women who arefluid, like you're're saying, in

(25:39):
it, once they get into their40s, we're going to even see a
rise, a continued rise, of womenfinding women.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
Because if I can go out and make my own money and
bring home my own food and payfor my car and pay my own bills
and do all the things and fuckmyself, then what do I need you
for if you can't be emotionallyavailable and bring something
else to the table for meStraight up, and that goes for a
man or a woman Also.

(26:08):
Erin, I just want to say I'mvery happy for you that you have
somebody, especially a man, whosees and hears you and
validates your needs as well aswhat it is that he wants, and I
think that that's very beautiful.
And I don't want to take awayfrom anyone's heterosexual
relationships and I'm not manbashing.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
Or hetero, hetero facing relationship, because
Erin is not heterosexual but, Ijust want to make sure the
listeners understand I wouldlike to also add with Erin that,
like her partner shows it'spossible, like she has been with
women and then is now with aman, and you know he shows it's

(26:52):
possible, that you can be allthe things you know.
It's like he lets go of his egoso that she can be more
dominant if she wants to, andI'm sure that improves their sex
life as well.
So do you think that he wasbrought up that way or why is he
like that?
Do you think, karen, why is helike that?

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Why is he?

Speaker 4 (27:15):
exceptional, I think that.
So I'm his first partner.
He just turned 30 this week andI think that that time with
himself to really considerhimself, to really see himself,
to really know himself Iactually think that that is a

(27:37):
huge part of it.
I really feel like he isextremely sensitive, extremely
inquisitive and I think thatthat is a huge part of it and
has like a it pleases him toplease me.
Like it doesn't ever feel likelike there was a bravado with

(27:59):
other men that I was with.
That he doesn't bring there'spride.
He literally can give memultiple orgasms in minutes and
so, yeah, of course there's apride that he has in that, but
it never feels like he's doingit for the pride of it.
It's centered on me and on whatI like, and so I can't really I

(28:20):
don't think it's one thing, butI think the biggest part is
just his open-mindedness and hissensitivity and his ability.
And it's not to say thatanytime that I've been like, oh,
I actually need this, thatthey're like all of us get
triggered and have our egobruised a little bit sometimes,
but like our recovery fromthings like that is really quick

(28:40):
because we're just willing tobe really emotionally vulnerable
together and just put thingsright on the table right away
and I think that that like kindof just helps that grow what
makes him as exceptional as heis.
I'm not quite sure, or else wewould have workshops and be
teaching other men.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Right.
So what I'd like to point out?
Also, he's cute, also he is ahandsome, a handsome man.
But you also brought up which Ithink is important that in
woman on woman sexualrelationships there is something
that is known as lesbiandeathbed, which is basically
where the sex, the excitementand the sex just trickles.

(29:19):
And I think, especially forwomen who are new to having sex
with women, at first it's soexciting.
Some of it is because of thetaboo, the you're not supposed
to be doing this according toour puritanical society.
And then, of course, as I thinkyou start owning your sexuality
and you start realizing all ofthat's bullshit, that taboo is

(29:41):
going to drop right.
That taboo kick, that littlekinky like oh, I'm fucking a
woman, that kick is going tocome down.
It's kind of like when youstart any new little kink right,
like at first it's like holyshit, this gets me off.
And then it's like I've beengetting spanked for five years
now.
It's like old, old hat, you gotit, I need a twist, let's throw
something else in.

(30:02):
So I think there's some aspectof that.
But it's important to point outthat also women with women
relationships or womenidentifying people, also have
their, their issues.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
So Well, I think that part of what ends up happening
is there is a comfortability.
Sometimes there can be kind oflike chrissy, I think, what you
were talking about at first, themothering, like the roles get
kind of blurry and and there isthis.
It just becomes really youdon't even realize how much time

(30:36):
has passed, and I have a reallyhigh sex drive, so I even
realize how much time has passedand I have a really high sex
drive, so I would realize howmuch time is passing and I think
that it becomes this littledance of like who seduces who.
You know who is taking thislike lead role and if nobody
takes it, then just thinghappens.
And I know that that can happenin heterosexual relationships

(30:58):
too.
I do love to seduce my partnereven now, but like I feel I feel
like in lesbian relationshipsthat has a tendency to happen
more because you just becomekind of buddies and just hanging
out as well is that you havetwo women who have been
conditioned in a certain way,and that is, women in our

(31:23):
society are conditioned to havea lot of shame around sex.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
So also bringing the experimentation into bed, the
creativity into bed, oftentimesfor women and two women together
is difficult because you havetwo people who are trying to
strip that shame, the sex shame,away, to feel okay, doing
something like look, I'm alreadybeing a lesbian, that's already
a bad thing.
Now you're wanting me to getkinky, are you fucking kidding?

(31:47):
I'm going to burn in hell,right, like that's a lot.
And so I think that that issome of the stuff that comes in
with a lesbian deathbed.
But here this is all to justsay you can see how on both
sides and I say both sidesbecause, like, look, we've got a
lot of genders and sexualitiesbetween our you know, our
heterosexual and then ourlesbian identities here.

(32:10):
And that's where I want to justtake a moment to interject my
experience, because everybodywho has been listening to me for
a while knows that a year andwell now, we're almost we're
getting close to two years ago Iwent through a really painful
breakup and I had been in areally difficult and painful
relationship and I came out ofthat.

(32:31):
I mean, y'all know, especiallyChrissy Chrissy has seen me at
my lowest.
I came out of that and I waslike I can't fucking do this
again, like this is so painful.
And I was right away I was likeI can't deal with, I can't deal
with a dude, like I'm not, Ican't.
I couldn't imagine beingintimate with a man again and

(32:53):
sort of my first experienceswere then with women after that
and I very quickly was likeexperiences were then with women
after that and I very quicklywas like this is a fucking shit
show.
I was like this is also likewomen can also be very hurtful.
It's hard in a different way.

(33:20):
People say that dating men ishard, dating women is hard.
You're choosing your heart.
Of course, now we have datingmen, dating women, dating
non-binary people, and thereality is, as most of my
listeners know, I am attractedto all people, regardless of
gender.

(33:44):
Turnaround for me in that Istarted to really realize what
it was that I needed had littleto do with the gender and had
everything to do with the personand the relationship, and that
I had to identify those things.
And then, in the people I wasmeeting, figure out real quick
like I was not willing to doanother spin around on, like you
know, getting another partnerwith the same traits who's going

(34:05):
to treat me the same way andbreak my heart in the same way,
and what I learned and what Ifeel like I'm hearing,
especially from you, erin, asfar as what you found in your
partner, and from Chrissy andLydia and what they're looking
is something that I find superattractive, that I don't think I
had up high on my list beforeis like kindness and security

(34:27):
and consistency, you know, andwhat package that comes in for
me doesn't fucking matter.
But the minute and boy, you canfeel lack of kindness, meanness
poking in men and I certainlyhave had that in many
relationships, especially mylast one but also women.
Women can be pretty fuckingbrutal and I'll tell you what

(34:49):
the minute I get like I'm datingsomeone and I get that feeling
from them.
I'm like my clit shrivels.
But if someone is sweet to me,wet, and it really can be in any
gender.
I want to ask you each do youreally think that being with a

(35:11):
man or a woman can turn someonequeer?
Let's start there, Lydia.
Do you think being with someoneof a certain gender and having
just really bad experiences canturn a person queer?

Speaker 3 (35:28):
I was saying no, I can only speak for personal
experience.
Everybody has their own journey, but for me I was always
attracted to women and to men,so it was always there.
I just know that I never wouldhave gone to women if I had been
treated correctly by a man Atleast that's what I feel like

(35:54):
completely heterosexual.
And then, because they have badsex or even sexual assault,
change their sexual.
Then they might need to take alot of time to self-reflect and
heal.
I can only really speak frompersonal experience because I
have had experience with sexualassault so let me be clear.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
you are saying that you you're like maybe he didn't
turn me, but I would have stayedwith a man if and not sought
out exploring with women if Ihad been getting what I needed
in that relationship.
So I want to.
That is what Can you confirm?

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Well, yes, but that's only because of the strong
religious indoctrination for mepersonally that I had.
It was much easier to presentas a straight woman than deal
with the shit of being queer, soI would have taken that
sacrifice and I'm glad I canexperience now being my
authentic self.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
But I'm just being honest, like okay, erin, do you
feel the same as Lydia, that ifyou had been getting what you
needed in your relationship witha woman sexually, that you
would have just stayed in thatlane?

Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's a little more complicated than that and so far
as, like I also was raised inChristianity, but I also I feel
like my mom was superopen-minded at one point in my
life, like I remember seeing TooWong Fu, things for Everything
or the Bird Cave just having shereally liked Katie Ling.
I remember at a pretty youngage not really understanding

(37:24):
what gayness was, what queer was, what definitely not what bi
was, but that there were otheroptions.
But I didn't really get thatand as I got older I didn't
realize that everybody didn'tfeel this way.
And when I was 14 and had aword for it, like when I met a
woman who was bisexual she was20 something and we were having

(37:44):
a conversation I was like, oh,that's what I think I am and
that was the closest that Icould identify.
I'm like I like both men andwomen.
I didn't know about differentgender identities and things
like that at 14.
But as soon as I had a name forit I was like this is what I am
and I didn't have like thetraditional big coming out thing
.
My mom asked me if I likedanybody in school and I said one

(38:06):
of my girlfriends no-transcript.

(38:38):
That didn't appeal to me.
I didn't like that feeling.
That weighed on me heavy.
I dated Catholic girls who wewould have amazing multiple
orgasmic sex and then they'd belike, oh my.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
God, I'm going to hell.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
I have to go pray about it.
It was just a lot to be ateenager and kind of figuring
that out and I felt more taboowhen I finally started
experimenting with men, Like I'mlike oh my God, touching a
penis for the first time.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
This is weird.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
And I knew a lot of my quote unquote straight
friends were like oh, I hategiving head, oh I hate when they
want me to swallow, I hate that.
I'm like I had no context ofwhat that was like and then,
going into it, I didn't have anyof those feelings towards male
bodies.
I didn't feel like, oh, this isyou're weird or different.
I was just like what do I dowith this?
What do you like being donewith this?

(39:26):
I don't know what to do withthis.
And it was such a creative andfree space.
I think that my lastrelationship it was more than
just that.
We had kind of fell apart fromeach other sexually and
intimately.
There was a lot of layers andfacets going on.
So I wouldn't in any way saythat it swayed me one way or

(39:48):
another, except that I wassurprised and judging myself
quite a bit how quickly I gotinto my current relationship
from my 11-year relationship.
But I ended up talking throughit in therapy and realizing like
, well, I had beenunintentionally celibate for a
lot of that time period and so,seeing it from that lens, so I

(40:13):
think, it's yes, in that myneeds weren't being met, but not
necessarily because it was awoman, but just because there
had been this gap.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
So Chrissy, after this conversation and listening
to other people, somebody who'salso very much in a situation
like you, are coming from thatperspective of you and Aaron, do
you feel that this relationshipwith your ex?

Speaker 1 (40:39):
No.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
You don't feel like it's what.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
No, I don't feel like it turned me gay.
I feel like there was alwaystendencies.
I was looking at my dad'sPlayboys when I was a little kid
.
I found women attractive.
I always have, like WonderWoman, I mean like the original
Wonder Woman, like let's be realanyway.
So no, I don't think henecessarily turned me gay.

(41:06):
I think I was always gay.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
I think we'd all be lying if we said you couldn't
look at another man if you're aman or a woman if you're a woman
, and go, oh, they're attractiveor right but do you feel like
it sort of like turned you offto the dick for a while and made
you like, really, I, reallyjust I want to be in my most
queer.
Yes, that's what turns me on,that's what gets me wet.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yes, I'm not saying I'm never going to be with
another man.
I cannot predict the future,but right now I'm very much so
leaning in a queer direction.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Right.
So I think this has been agreat conversation.
Guys, what I learned from this?
Do I think it's a myth thatbeing with a man can turn you
gay?
Yes, I don't think.
I don't think there's anyscientific evidence out there to
say that being with someone ofa certain gender is going to

(42:01):
turn you queer Not that I knowof.
Look, if you have the researchand I'm wrong, you know what to
do.
Guys, go over to my YouTubechannel at TalkSexWithAnette and
drop it in the comment section.
I want to see it and I willcome back and I will eat my
words.
But what I do think this reallypoints to is the fluidity of

(42:24):
sexuality, especially in peoplewho already identify as being
queer.
Whether you know especially onthe bi spectrum, queer spectrum,
pan spectrum that how youexperience a relationship with
someone of a specific gender canaffect what you want in your
next relationship.

(42:45):
Right, there are a lot offactors that play into it and
every experience you havesexually is going to affect sort
of what you learn about, whatyou want and what you're going
to look for in future partnersif you don't stay with the
current partner.
What I do think you can takeaway from this conversation is

(43:06):
that, whether you are, let's say, a lesbian in a relationship
with a bi or pan woman, or aheterosexual man in a
relationship with a bi or panwoman oftentimes bi, pan, queer
woman you know people don't wantto date them.

(43:27):
I would say this happens evenmore when you're dating a
lesbian.
In my experience they'll say oh, I don't want to date a bi
woman because they always deferto the dick Right, and sometimes
with men, oftentimes they'relike I want to date a bi woman
because I want to have athreesome.
Leave you for the other gender.

(43:52):
What I would say you can takefrom this conversation is it's
not about by women deferring tothe dick or leaving you for a
woman.
What we do really is a reactionof how we're being treated.
Who we decide to be with in ournext relationship.
If it's not with you isdirectly related to how you've
treated us and what we'relooking for.

(44:13):
Right, if we're constantly withmen who treat us like shit,
then we're going to be like hey,what is it going to be like if
I'm with a woman or a non-binaryperson, or if I'm with a
lesbian who's like shaming mefor being bisexual which has
happened or that I'm havinglesbian deathbed with.
I'm going to be like.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
I'm going to try and find me a kinky guy.
Are they them Erin thoughts?
Any final thoughts?
I was going to say that mythoughts on that when you were
saying that, is that I'veactually found in both dating
men and women that I've had moredifficulty with men being not
wanting to at all have athreesome because they were
concerned that I would leavethem for a woman because that
has always like you.
You keep referring to me aslesbian.
Most of my friends refer to meas lesbian, even though I
identify as pansexual.

(44:59):
I've been lesbian, presentingmore of my life.
That has actually been thereverse for me.
I didn't really have womenbeing worried that I would leave
them for a man so much as whenI dated men they were like well,
your preference up to thispoint has mostly been women, so
who knows?
if I get bored of me and run off.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
So that that makes sense as well.
If you early on, did you everidentify as a lesbian?

Speaker 4 (45:25):
I know people assume, people assumed, and I think it
just was like in, like it wasjust kind of on the back burner
of my mind Like, yeah, at somepoint I'd like to see what it's
like to be with men, but it justhadn't happened.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Right.
So it sounds to me like becauseyou started with women and
people made assumptions aboutyour sexuality, it makes sense
that I definitely have had menlike.
When I've been sort of likelifestyle or in the swinger
situation where I came in andhad sex with a couple and I,
like had sex with a woman, I'vedefinitely had men afterwards

(45:58):
worry about me trying to nagtheir ladies.
So it's interesting I wonder ifthen that's part of the thing.
If someone who starts outdating mostly men then dates a
woman, a lesbian, they're likeoh, you've mostly been with guys
, you're going to leave me to goback to a guy.
But the bottom line is, I thinkwhat you can take away from
this podcast is it's reallyabout what you're bringing to

(46:23):
the table.
You're not turning anybody, butwomen are trying something else
if they aren't getting theirneeds met with the previous
gender of the person they'vebeen with, whether it's a man or
a woman or a non-binary personor whatever.
Any last thoughts from you,lydia?

Speaker 3 (46:45):
So this is a vulva.
I encourage all of you tofigure out what it is and where
things are located For mylisteners.
Go to the YouTube channel.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I encourage all of you to figure out what it is and
where things are located For mylisteners.
Go to the YouTube channel.
We are all wearing necklaceswith giant vulvas on them that
Lydia actually made for us.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think that the guys who are listening heterosexual
men especially know the vulva,worship it the way that you want
a woman to worship your cock.
It is not just this little beadright here, this is actually a
huge thing.
So do due diligence to know thepleasure spots of the woman

(47:24):
that you are with, because ifyou don't, someone else is going
to going to say, right, also,bring toys into the room.
Bring toys into the room.
Don't be threatened.
If you have like a six inchpenis and your girl wants to get
down with a big, old, thickshaft, like she's with you,
because you're the human right,don't feel less than if you know

(47:46):
she wants to use a toy, she'sgonna just love you so much more
for being vulnerable and forputting her needs above your own
ego.
So even if you gotta fake itfor a while, like really get
into it and and worship hervulva and her vagina the way
that you want her to worshipyour cock love it.

Speaker 4 (48:05):
I think that a key component to being a good lover
is from the entire spectrum ofgender and sexuality is knowing
yourself and knowing what youlike and being willing to
experiment with that, and notonly knowing yourself sexually,
but like being really intimatewith yourself.
It's so much easier to beintimate with someone else when

(48:27):
you are letting yourself beintimate with yourself and that
I teach yoga and meditation, andI think that that time with
yourself and getting to knowyourself will create more space
for that exploration in allaspects of your life, including
how you're showing up for yourpartners.
It's a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
So one thing that Erin was saying that really
struck a chord with me thatbrings it all together is like
the person that she's with rightnow.
Now she doesn't feel like he isusing her body to please
himself.
He's not using her vagina toget himself off, and I think
that's where the big differencecomes in yeah, christy.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Any final thoughts for our listeners?

Speaker 1 (49:06):
I just think we should all not be so lazy in the
bedroom or emotionally.
Just stop being so fucking lazy.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I think that's actually a really great way to
wrap this up.
The reality is relationshipsare work right, but the workload
is lesser when two people aredoing it together equally lesser
when two people are doing ittogether equally.
And when I say workload, thereis work that's not fun in life
and there's work that's fun inlife and a relationship can be

(49:42):
and should be fun work, meaningit's fun to get to know someone
and be intimate with someone.
It's pleasureful to connectwith someone and have that
intimate connection.
It's pleasureful to connectwith someone and have that
intimate connection.
It can be hard to get past yourown blocks, your own trauma,
and to understand how to do that.
That's the work, but it's workthat can be fun when done

(50:05):
together.
Sex is work, being good at it,having good sex for both people.
It's not easy, it takes work,but I think we can all agree it
can be fun work.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
For sure.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
But it is work both people have to do, and work is
less worky and more fun whenboth people are doing it Right.
I think that's sort of what I'mhearing.
Well, guys like listeners, youstuck through it.
I think what you can take fromthis podcast is that if your

(50:40):
woman has left you whetheryou're a lesbian or a queer
woman whose woman has left themfor a man, or a man whose woman
has left him and now is havingsex with more women than he is
you did not turn them.
They were queer and oursexuality is fluid and they
decided to flow the oppositedirection.
And if you don't want to seethat in the future, start

(51:03):
looking at what role did youplay in the relationship.
What were the things she wasasking for?
Figure out why you didn't wantto give them.
Obviously, there's a reason whyyou didn't want to give them.
I'm not saying that that wasthe person for you, but maybe
when you find your next person,try doing things a little
different, and I like the ideaof starting out with learning

(51:24):
about the vulva.
You can go listen to myintimacy how-tos.
I will have you ready to blowher mind the next time you hop
in bed with her.
I want to remind you that I'mover on OnlyFans and there I am
sharing my sex and intimacy tips, how-tos and demonstrations,
along with audio guidedself-pleasure meditations,
masturbation meditation.
You can find me there with myhandle at TalkSexWithAnette.

(51:47):
I'm doing a lot of the sameover on Substack.
You can find me there with myhandle at TalkSexWithANet, and
if you want an intimacy coachsex and intimacy coach head over
to TalkSexWithANetcom and youcan find out all about that, or
you can email me at Annette atTalkSexWithANetcom.
I want to thank my friends fortaking time to do that.

(52:08):
We are sitting in my very hotplace.
We had to turn off the airconditioning to it's 95 degrees
outside to have thisconversation, but I know that it
was very vulnerable for each ofyou who came here and shared
today and can I say something?
Yeah, Chrissy.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I just want to say that if you want the big love,
if you want the big adventure,the big O, I don't care if
you're a man or a woman you'regonna have to do the work.
Relationships, but it's work,love is work, it's all work.
If you're not willing to do thework, then step to the rear.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
I think that a reoccurring theme in my own life
is safety is really importantHuge and I think that a big part
of my previous relationship wasthat we didn't know how to
return to safety together.
And so it's not just about thework that you're bringing into

(53:04):
the bedroom.
There's also those little sweetgestures and those little
pauses and those little momentswhere you're creating and
reinforcing safety safety to beheard, safety to disagree safely
and we all come from thebackgrounds we come from and
have to learn that together andlearn each other's language of

(53:24):
being, and that safetytranslates into the bedroom as
well.
So feeling like you can setyour ego aside so that she can
explore with her toys, that iscreating a sense of safety and a
container for deeperexploration and then deeper
pleasure for everyone.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
A bunch of great advice, guys.
I feel like you guys got somefantastic advice today, so take
it, implement it.
If you're in a relationshipright now, do the sex Start
doing the things.
Thanks so much.
If you're in a relationshipright now, do the sex Start
doing the things.
Thanks so much.
Happy pride to my girlies.
Happy pride Cheers, happy pride.
Until next time, folks, we'llsee you in the locker room.
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