December 3, 2025 • 62 mins
Talking about kink doesn’t have to be awkward — in fact, when you do it right, the conversation itself becomes part of the turn-on.
In today’s episode of Talk Sex with Annette, we’re breaking down how to explore kink with a partner in a way that feels safe, connected, and genuinely exciting… long before anything physical happens.
I’m joined by Lisa Opel, pleasure coach at Joy Club, author, educator, and speaker who teaches people around the world how to navigate desire, boundaries, and curiosity with confidence. Together, we’re diving into why negotiation is one of the most misunderstood parts of kink, and how it can actually build trust, intimacy, and erotic tension.
You’ll learn:
• How to talk about new desires without making things uncomfortable
• What to say when you’re nervous to bring something up
• How to explore fantasies in a judgment-free way
• Why negotiation can become its own form of foreplay
• Tools for building trust, safety, and connection before you try something new
• How to start small, communicate clearly, and create a deeper, more playful dynamic
Whether you’re a beginner exploring kink for the first time or you’ve been curious for years, this episode gives you the exact language, mindset, and steps to talk about your desires in a way that brings you closer — not farther apart.
Use code EXPLORES15 for 15% off all Womanizer Products at Womanizer.com.
Experience the Pheromone Advantage at 15% off with my code LRT15
Use code LRT15 at Eyeoflove.com
And you'll get 15% off pheromone powered perfumes, colognes, and more.
Check out my Diaries on OF. Enjoy exclusive access to intimacy video how-tos, guided self-pleasure meditations, and more!
https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti
Get your intimacy questions answered, enjoy erotic audio readings and more.
https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@annettebenedetti
Connect with us
We are on all the socials:
- TikTok: @ LockerRoomTalkPodcast
- LRT's Insta: @Lockerroomtalkandshots
- Annette's Insta: @BeingBenedetti
- SEL Inst: @SheExplores_Life
- LRT's FB: @LockerRoomTalkandShots
- SEL FB: @ SheExploresLife
- Annette's YouTube: Annette Benedetti
Check Out More Sexy Content:
She Explores Life Website: sheexploreslife.com
Cheers!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast
formerly known as Locker RoomTalk and Shots.
The show has a new name, TalkSex with Annette.
But at its core, this is stillyour locker room.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious, and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink,dating, pleasure, and desire.
Around here, nothing's offlimits.
(01:52):
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends, and of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest, and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you.
And if you're new, welcome to mypodcast where desire meets
disruption and pleasure becomespower.
(02:14):
Now, let's talk about sex.
Cheers.
Right, Low.
Today's Talk Sex within it topicis how to negotiate kink like a
pro and make it hot, notawkward.
What if the sexiest part of kinkisn't the flogger or the rope,
(02:35):
but the conversation thathappens before?
Today we're diving into one ofthe most misunderstood but
crucial parts of BDSM and kinknegotiation.
This isn't just about safety,it's about trust, desire, and
building erotic tension longbefore you've ever even touched
(02:56):
each other.
And I have the perfect guest tobe our guide on learning how to
negotiate our kink and BDSMdesires.
My guest today is Lisa Opel, apleasure coach at Joy Club,
author of Erotic LiteratureExploring Kink and BDSM, TED
Talk Speaker, and educator whoteaches people around the world
(03:20):
how to negotiate scenes that arenot just consensual, but
electric.
Together, we're going to breakdown exactly how to talk about
your desires, limits, andboundaries in a way that makes
negotiation itself part of theturn-on.
But before we dive in, I want toremind you that I'm over on
OnlyFans, and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos,
(03:42):
demos, and audio guidedself-pleasure meditations.
I'm also offering coaching.
Basically, if you are not readyto dive into and commit to a
full coaching regimen, I'mgiving you the opportunity to
ask me one-off questions that Iwill answer for you there.
And you can find me there undermy handle at Talk Sex withinet.
(04:03):
You can find me on Substackdoing a whole lot of the same
minus the coaching and demosunder the same handle at Talk
Sex with the Net, or you canscroll down to the show notes
and find all the links towherever you want to find me.
I'm looking forward to seeingyou there.
But for now, Lisa, will you takea moment to tell my listeners a
little bit more about you?
SPEAKER_04 (04:24):
Hello, Annette, and thank you so much for having me
this evening.
And the way you introduced mewas already perfect.
I think what was actuallymissing, though, was the more
personal side, why I starteddoing it.
And that feeds seamlessly intothe topic this evening.
Because me writing, I have toadd realistic erotic literature.
(04:47):
What do I mean by realistic?
I mean I show all those perhapsawkward moments, all those
things that are not normallyshown in porn, in rom com,
whether it's the orgasmdifficulties, the menstruation
sex, the postpartum mum, becausethese are the things we don't
talk about and for which we'renot given language.
And I started writing when Irealized I don't have the
(05:11):
language to talk about mydesires, my needs, my wants, my
limits after becoming a mum.
So my journey into this wholeworld derived from a place of
utter desperation, which gave memaximum motivation to learn that
vocabulary pretty fast.
(05:31):
And nowadays, the wordnegotiation, it used to make me
itch.
Now I love it.
It's an integral part of myrelationship.
I've been with my husband for 18years, and we negotiate like
pros over big and small kinksand needs and wants.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
I love that.
I think something that peopledon't talk about a lot is that
real sex, real eroticism,including the awkward moments
and the things that aredifficult are what actually make
sex sexy.
The realness and the rawness andthe primal part of it is what
(06:15):
makes it yummy.
And a lot of that gets strippedaway in mainstream media and
porn, right?
Because they do the cleaned upversion of it.
And that's why people often lookfor amateur porn or, you know,
the unpolished is what reallycan turn them on.
And so I could see how thatwould be the same in erotica.
(06:37):
And this leads beautifully intohow we can take those moments
that pop up in our our sex life,especially when we're trying to
talk to a new or a long-termpartner about these desires for
kinks, fetishes, or just newexperiences and that we're
afraid they're gonna think areweird or that are gonna turn
(06:59):
them off or scare them away.
I get a lot of requests fromlisteners asking me, like, how
do I like talk to my partnerabout this?
Or I'm afraid I'm gonna talk tomy partner and they're gonna
leave me or they're gonna shutme down.
And then what if I don't everget to experience this thing I
want to experience?
(07:20):
Well, today we are gonna map howyou can start to have that
conversation with your partnerand how you can start having the
kind of anything that you wantto.
So by the end of this podcast,you guys are gonna have all of
you, and I know I have so manyunanswered emails out there with
this exact question.
(07:40):
All of you who have reached outto me, and all those of you out
there listening or watching onmy YouTube channel by the end of
this episode, you're gonna haveyour starter pack for the
conversations to get you to aplace of negotiating kinks, BDSM
desires, or even just anydifferent desire that you'd like
(08:01):
to bring into your bedroom withyour partner.
So stay to the end.
So you can take that step you'vebeen wanting to stop to take.
I'm ready.
I'm ready just to dive into it.
Absolutely.
All right, cheers.
Let's talk about getting kinky.
Cheers.
Cheers.
At the time of this recording,we are in the middle of
(08:23):
Kinktober, by the way.
So this is a fun time to havethe conversation.
But Kinktober just leads intocuffing season.
So this conversation is perfectbecause in cuffing season, we've
hooked up and we're ready to dothe kinky things through the
cold season to get us through tothe warm weather, right?
(08:44):
So what I want to start thisconversation with is why do you
think so many people think ofthe negotiation part of kink as
a buzzkill?
SPEAKER_04 (08:59):
When I got the invitation from you to come in
your podcast, the first thing Ilooked at was actually the word
negotiating.
And I took about a hundred stepsback and I remembered how I felt
when I didn't have the words forwhat I was feeling and what I
wanted to say.
And the word negotiation assuch, it sounds so stiff, so
(09:23):
hard.
We know it from the businessworld, and it's all about
contracts.
And I think the first thing weneed to be aware of is
negotiating and negotiations,they're not contracts, they're
conversations.
So we're leading theseconversations with curiosity,
we're leading with playfulness.
(09:43):
At the end of the day, we wantto negotiate with our partner
together in order to createsomething.
And instead of seeing it assomething where I need to
exactly put down black and whitewhat it is I want and what it is
I need, and create boundariesand limits and all these things,
to see it from a differentangle.
(10:05):
We want to create a safeenvironment.
We want emotional trust.
And this becomes our playground.
The negotiation for me isnothing other than a safe space
in which we get to explore whowe are, what we want to do, and
to fill this space with as muchlove and intimacy and connection
(10:27):
as we possibly can.
Now, where I notice all the timethat people who ask these
questions, where do I start?
What do I do?
What do I say?
Give me one sentence, Lisa, andI'm going to use that sentence
tonight with my partner, isagain to take a quick step back,
(10:47):
to consider our needs, first andforemost.
And I see it a bit likeself-prep or homework to say, if
you go into a business meeting,you know what you're
negotiating.
So first and foremost, what isit I want?
What is it I'm desiring?
And I can add a tip straightaway.
I'm a very practical person, myapproach.
(11:08):
What helped me enormously was tocreate a yes, maybe, no list.
So we throw the word kink in theroom, and it is so big, it's
like an elephant.
So for me, it was about thinkingwhat is it I'd really like to
do?
What is it I maybe want to do?
And what do I not want to do?
And even these things, they'restill up for negotiation, play
(11:31):
on words intended.
But again, it's not about havingthis clear idea of this is
exactly what I want to do, butto fill it playfully.
When I have found out what Iwant to be doing, I need to find
the language.
Now, for me, it was eroticliterature.
(11:51):
It helped.
And things like amateur porn,they can also help in finding
vocabulary.
And I think it's more than justsaying, I want to, and to find a
playful approach in thinking, doI want it to be intense?
Do I want it to be poetic?
And this inner mindset, itchanges the way we express
(12:14):
something.
So to find my language,journaling was something that
really helped me, something thatI still laugh about because I
imagine myself to be like adetective at a crime scene with
a little dictaphone.
I sent myself voice messages.
Because one of my biggeststruggles was it sounded so
silly coming out of my mouth.
(12:36):
So once I know what I'minterested in and what I'm
intrigued about and what I wouldlike to talk about, I try to
say, and you, I mean, you can doit in front of the mirror in the
morning or in any way, shape, orform, but to actually hear your
voice is quite empowering.
And so we become more embodiedin our desires.
(12:57):
And there's a plethora ofdifferent places you can find
this vocabulary and, you know,just research, put the private
browser history on, whatever.
But there are so many ways tofirst and foremost find out what
it is we want.
And this is already such a bigpart of meeting our partner in
(13:18):
the middle when we talk aboutthis, but it helps us regulate.
And what I actually neglectedwas I thought my partner was so
open.
And normally it's the other wayaround.
So you approach your partner andyou're perhaps expecting a no.
I wasn't.
And the idea of self-regulation,I hadn't considered at all.
(13:40):
What if my partner says no?
How do I regulate?
So I think in retrospect, Iwould also add to this little
homework to do before you eventalk to your partner is to say,
what if they say no off thecuff?
Is there perhaps wiggle room?
Is it, okay, would you like togo and think about it for two
days and then we can reconveneand revisit this conversation?
(14:03):
Or was it too much all at once?
So to be prepared for thisconversation also means I need
to be able to take care ofmyself.
The last part that for me wasessential was self-consent.
Telling myself I'm allowed tohave desires, to have wants and
(14:24):
needs.
And, you know, that is that isshrouded in shame and taboo and
cultural conditioning and girls,good girls don't ask.
I mean, really good girls, theydo ask and they get.
But so that's that right.
(14:45):
But there is there are so manycliches also that men always
want.
So all of that, I mean, that isjust such a huge part of our
sexual history.
And for me, it was too.
I came from such a Disney fairytale kind of world, and I
thought, ah, you know, is itokay if my if I ask my partner
if he wants to be pegged?
Is that crazy for me to say?
(15:06):
And spoiler, it's not crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
There are several things you said that really do
tie in to negotiation, right?
Because the question is, how doI ask for and negotiate my
sexual needs?
And how do you ask for andnegotiate something that number
one, you don't feel the right towant?
If you still feel ashamed andconflicted about your own
(15:32):
desires, you're going tostruggle to be effective at
negotiating them.
If you don't fully understandyour desires in bed, it's going
to be hard to negotiate thembecause around most desires,
there are adjacent activitiesthat you can negotiate for.
(15:53):
So for instance, let's sayspanking, what you brought up,
that's very common.
Us curlies at least once arelike, hmm, what would end, you
know, maybe your desire is, hey,I want to be turned over a knee,
fully panties down, spanked witha butt plug in, and I want to
(16:14):
call you daddy.
Maybe that's the full desire.
And your partner has never liketalked about kink, seems pretty
like vanilla, and you're like,oh my gosh, how do I get this
fantasy to come true?
Well, if you haven't mapped outyour full fantasy, and if you
don't feel like, okay, this isnormal and a shame-free desire,
(16:34):
then you go into the negotiationand you're like, hey, I want to
be spanked, and I kind of wantthis thing.
I'd like it to look like this.
You're not using stronglanguage, you're not
self-assured, you'rewishy-washy, and you're like, I
kind of like to be every knee,and I don't know.
I know this sounds weird, butcould I call you daddy?
And he's whoa, whoa.
Now, if then if you don't reallyknow your desire, then you can't
(16:57):
be like, Hey, can we start withlike just adding, can you slap
my ass during sex?
I want to see what that feelslike.
You can like downgrade, like,you don't want that full scene
great, but could you just tryslapping my ass during sex?
SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
And what really helps sometimes is to reframe it
and to tell your partner,because that energy that you
just brought, I mean, it waspalpable, right?
It was like, I mean, anybody whodoesn't go, oh yeah, tell me
more.
Like, how how do you imagine itto be?
Where would you like to be?
Like, let's talk about thescene.
Where are you seated?
Where am I seated?
Is it night?
Is it day?
Let's talk about it.
(18:28):
And then you get invested inthis story, in this scene.
And if a partner doesn't feelthat fire, what often helps is
saying why you want to do it.
And that's where I notice,particularly for women, why do I
want to be spanked?
And this can be, and this iswhere my playfulness comes
(18:50):
through.
This can be something as simpleas I have decision fatigue.
I have been making decisions thewhole day.
I'm a mom of two.
I have had to make a milliondecisions.
Tonight, I just want to liethere, take it like a good girl,
and you have full control.
(19:11):
And you can do whatever you likewith me.
Preferably, it's my butt, I'mbeing spanked.
But this is why I want it.
Because it gives you thepersonal, the emotional side of
it again, which is morecomprehensible in a relationship
where love and intimacy andunderstanding is the foundation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
I just think the way you say I just want to lie there
like a good girl is is going tobe a winning line in almost any
situation.
I just want to lie there like agood girl for you.
Like I'm like and you can dothat.
SPEAKER_04 (19:49):
Oh, I'm I'm a switch.
So I can be good, but I can alsobe very bad.
But that's the magic in it.
I I believe this why, this fire,the essence, the why do I want
to do it?
Why do I want I'm bisexual?
So why do I want to peg you?
Because I want to be inside you.
(20:10):
I want to be as close aspossible.
I want your face in my face.
I want to be in you fully, and Iwant to hear you moan while we
are chest to chest.
This is the why, and it becomesa more emotional response.
And that is so much easier totalk about than I want my hand
(20:32):
to touch your bum.
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
I love the idea of really bringing that emotional
part and the sexy emotionalpart.
It's because what you're taughttelling them is the desire
behind the kink.
Here's the desire, and desire issexy and it's erotic.
And partners want that sexy andwant that erotic, and it's going
(20:57):
to be much more appeal.
You know, desire and eroticismbring fear down a little bit.
So maybe it's a little scary tothink about someone in your
butt.
Understandable, understandable,but then when it's expressed in
an erotic way, it's a littleless scary and a little bit more
(21:18):
sexy.
And you're sort of bring downthe fear, bring up the turn on,
bring down the fear, bring upthe turn on, right?
SPEAKER_04 (21:26):
That's it.
And at the end of the day, nomatter what it is, I mean, it
completely always depends onwhere are you in your
relationship, how's yourcommunication in general.
And I know for many people,really having a voice, having a
sexual voice is something thatI've been spending a lot of time
researching because, like wesaid at the beginning, we're not
(21:49):
taught how to speak in erotic,are we?
I write letters.
Now, this is the romantic in mespeaking, not the one who wants
to peg someone.
For many people, if if somethingfeels too big, like you just
said, sort of bringing the fearlevel down, I also love the idea
of writing a letter.
(22:09):
I once joked with a colleague,she said, yeah, yeah, do you
like a PowerPoint presentation?
Go all in.
Send your partner a PowerPointpresentation about, you know,
facts, statistics, why you wantto do it, your five top
motivations for doing it.
When we bring that playfulnessin, it stops being, I want to
(22:29):
stick a dildo up your bum hole.
And it starts being this is theconnection I'm craving for these
reasons.
And I mean, playfulness ingeneral is underrated in our
sexuality, but also in kink,there is so much potential in
kink and BDSM to use humor todiffuse certain situations.
(22:52):
And by humor, I'm not sayinglet's laugh about our boundaries
and our safe words, but it givesus a different approach in
ensuring we feel safe, becauseonly when we feel safe can we
then truly play.
I like to call it reverseengineering safety.
So we kind of start basicallywith aftercare.
(23:13):
So instead of saying, I want tospank your bum if if we go with
that example, maybe we'resaying, you know, when we're
finished, whatever it might be,let's just leave the act as it
is.
We don't know what the act isyet.
We don't know the scene.
We're gonna concentrate on theedges, on on making it safe,
like a sandwich.
So we're gonna start with how weare gonna do it?
(23:36):
Would you like me to ease you inwith words?
Perhaps role play could be anidea.
Maybe we wanna go a traditionalschool girl teacher scenario or
the office scenario.
And then we encapsule the actthat we've not spoken about yet
with the aftercare.
And I'm a big fan of using lovelanguages, not in a sense of we
(24:00):
all have one, but what is it youneed to soothe your nervous
system after?
So for me, for example, I lovewords.
I'm more of a go shower thanstay lying in bed.
I go shower, we have a drink, asnack, and we talk about it.
We're kind of framing whateverit is that might happen with
(24:21):
safety.
And that makes talking aboutthat scary thing a little bit
easier as well.
And the aftercare in particular,I put such a focus on because
for me, aftercare is foreplay.
Because that's when werecalibrate, like in that
conversation of I really enjoyedit when you were inside me and
(24:45):
you looked into my eyes and youtold me how much it meant to
you, or all these kinds, they'reforeplay.
It's already getting excited forthe next game.
So perhaps a different way tolook at it with a partner is to
create that safety net first andthen leap into it with a
(25:05):
parachute for the sake of abetter example right now.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
I love that you say that aftercare is foreplay for
the next time.
I I have a whole how-to onaftercare, folks.
I will tag that below.
But it is those conversationsare setting the stage for the
next time you're together.
I want to do something I'venever done before.
I want to invite you to askconsent for, if you will.
(25:32):
I think something fun we coulddo for listeners is you and I
could role-play negotiating akinker desire.
We can pretend like we'repartners and there is a kink
that you want to negotiate withme, and you can demonstrate in
(26:52):
this conversation how it wouldbe negotiated.
Are you are you down?
SPEAKER_03 (26:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
All right, uh, don't even tell me what which kink.
I want you to surprise me withwhat you're gonna ask me for.
Okay.
Surprise me.
SPEAKER_04 (27:10):
Yeah.
And I think it it deserves alittle extra mention to say,
because this is where theperformance-related aspect
always comes in, that people arenow expecting the perfect
conversation.
And I think that's the mostimportant bit because there is
no perfect negotiation.
And so I say to everyonelistening, enjoy because it it
(27:34):
might be hilariously wonky andwho knows what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Okay, wait, first of all, are we long-term partners
or are we new lovers?
SPEAKER_04 (27:43):
Maybe we're lovers.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Brand new lovers.
Okay, am I a penis owner or am Ijust who I am?
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Who would you like?
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
Like a man.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Would you like to?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Who would I?
I think I kind of want to be aguy.
SPEAKER_04 (27:58):
Can I be a guy for this conversation?
Okay.
Yes.
I often wish I had a penis, soit's very suitable.
I just want to know what itfeels like.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yeah, I just want to know what it feels like just
once to put my penis inside ofall the like so bad.
In uh inside of vagina, not ofall the sorry, folks.
I want I want to enter a womanwith a real penis.
God, I think it would feel realgood.
SPEAKER_04 (28:22):
Yeah, I think so too.
Yeah.
I my mind's already wanderingoff right now.
I need to think of somethingthat us lovers are gonna do.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Let me think.
And then where are we havingthis conversation?
It depends on I think we are Ithink we're in a no, we're not
in a cafe.
SPEAKER_04 (28:52):
I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I love to do
because it adds the extra levelof taboo for me.
For everybody listening, youknow, you can do that kind of
thing.
It already starts everything asvery, very sexy.
I think maybe we've actuallyjust had sex.
So intimacy is possibly at avery high level.
We feel trust, we feelconnected, we're we're really
(29:13):
there.
And yeah, and I feel safe enoughto open up to you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
This is fascinating.
This is a great tip, guys.
When you're already connected,you've just had orgasms, your
the bonding hormones are alreadylike in full force.
Adrenaline, everything's kind ofsounding yummy.
That's a good time.
All right, I like it.
Okay, I like it.
Let's go.
SPEAKER_04 (29:36):
I'm I'm not gonna give you a name, we're just
gonna roll with it.
Let's roll with it.
Okay.
Listen, there's something I'vebeen thinking about.
And I'd love for you to hear meout.
And it's up to you whether youwant to answer straight away.
(29:58):
Maybe you don't.
That's also totally fine.
If we could possibly talk about,you know, when you'd like to get
back to me, that would make mefeel safe and it wouldn't leave
me wondering or tense.
I'd like to talk to you aboutsomething I have imagined trying
in the bedroom.
How do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
All right, all right.
I'm interested.
SPEAKER_04 (30:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Nervous.
SPEAKER_04 (30:23):
All right, okay, don't be nervous.
Don't be nervous.
It's quite playful and it'ssomething I've never done
before.
I have never been handcuffedbefore and blindfolded, and then
had somebody have their way withme.
(30:47):
And the reason I'm interested indoing this is because I'm
normally quite active in thebedroom and I really trust you,
and I feel like I would be ableto let go, feel safe, and that
we could have quite an intimateand touching time together.
(31:10):
And I'm completely open as towhat have your way means, and
I'd love to talk to you aboutwhether that's toys or maybe
something different or sex orforeplay.
But I really like the idea ofbeing restrained and entirely at
your mercy.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so yeah, I guess I want totalk more about what have my way
means.
Like you said it's up to me, butwhat is what's your fantasy
about this?
Because I'm not clear on that.
SPEAKER_04 (31:48):
I that's great.
Thank you.
And thank you for being open andlistening.
I guess I would I love words, soI would love for you to build
anticipation because I'mblindfolded, I don't really know
what's going on yet.
And like I said, maybe it is sexand playing and oral and all the
(32:10):
things we've been doing untilnow, but in a different space,
so that I don't really knowwhat's going on.
And I'd love perhaps if youcould lead with words so that
you're teasing me.
And maybe because I don't knowwhat's happening, it would feel
different for me.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
So you want me to say what I'm gonna do?
What does teasing mean?
SPEAKER_04 (32:37):
Because maybe we can even yeah, maybe we can even
build up to it before.
Maybe we could roleplay into it.
So maybe there's something thathappens before, so that we get
in the mood.
Maybe you could be more dominantand I would feed into that.
(32:58):
And perhaps it would mean mebeing on my knees or something
happening.
You like that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
I like that.
I like that.
SPEAKER_04 (33:06):
Okay, okay.
Well, that's good.
We've found found something incommon.
I like that very much.
Maybe you tell me to get on myknees too.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
I could do that, I absolutely could do that.
So I like that.
I like that.
I love the idea of playing.
With restraint and giving it atry.
I've done it twice before.
So you have?
Who opened that?
I think uh where I s might needmore direction is I'm not great
(33:38):
at necessarily role play or sextalk.
Maybe like the around thelanguage.
Like I sometimes feel awkward.
So they're like maybe if wecould figure out what you want
there, so I don't make it so itdoesn't feel awkward in the
moment.
SPEAKER_04 (33:58):
So I did my homework a little bit, and I'd be lying
if I said I didn't look intothese things and research a
little bit.
And I found a couple of pornosthat have great language.
Perhaps we could watch themtogether.
Done.
SPEAKER_00 (34:19):
We're there.
You are a tied up.
I am watching porn.
I don't know, feeding youpopcorn or or or strawberries.
Well, you're restrained and I'mwatching your porn.
Is that what you want me to say?
Done.
SPEAKER_04 (34:35):
You know, what I was thinking actually was perhaps we
should have done it the otherway around.
Because I I'm not always notsure whether it's the women that
have all the fantasies anddesires or whether it's the men
and who meets who in the middle.
But I guess the same can applyin any direction.
I think the way I did it wasvery representative of any
gender in which direction itshould go.
(34:58):
And I guess if we were tocontinue the conversation, I'd
also include in the aftercareperhaps something like, you
know, I'm a bit worried abouthow my wrists will feel.
I'm worried about the effect itmight have on my body, because
another thing, particularly inKing Speedy SM, that we need to
be aware of is, and I'm notgoing to dive into it too far
(35:20):
because I'm not a specialist inthat area, but trauma responses.
So that if we are doing thingsthat cross boundaries, of
course, in the safe frame ofsafe words, it still might have
an effect.
And so aftercare is essentialphysically, verbally,
emotionally, so that it's notjust the glass of water and a
(35:40):
blanket.
Maybe sometimes it's it'stalking about whatever's come up
as well.
So a lot of the emotions thatcome up.
And if it has been restraints,maybe there's something there
that you want to talk about andsay to your partner, listen,
when you put them on, I feltthis and this, and it made me a
little uncomfortable.
Maybe next time we can, and youdon't need to make a therapist
(36:01):
session out of it, but to beaware that in our aftercare
conversations, those tiny littleelements, they also help
recalibrate then for the nextsession.
That's how we gain our languageand that's how we evolve in our
conversations also as a couple.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
And how the kink evolves, right?
So let's say you've negotiated arestraint, being restrained at
first.
And and what you it was kind ofa in my life, what you
negotiated there was kind ofsoft kink, like I'd like to
absolutely know how hard to go.
Could have been harder.
(36:38):
Yeah, sure.
But let's say your ultimatedesire maybe is bigger.
Maybe you're like, okay, this islike I'd like to start with you
restraining, and but deep downyou're like, eventually I want
X, Y, and Z, and it's moreintense.
This is a great way to starttowards that.
Hey, let's just start with somerestraining and get that down
(36:59):
and normalize that in ourrelationship so that whipping
out the ham cut handcuffs islike, well, we do that every
other week for fun, right?
And then from there in theseaftercare conversations, you can
recalibrate and say, Hey, howwould you feel about next time
including this thing?
And then building on it, almostset the foundation and then
(37:22):
start building up with you know,adding on.
Next thing you know, you've gothandcuffs hanging from the
ceiling and floggers in yourcloud.
SPEAKER_03 (37:32):
You got wax play, you got all sorts of full gags.
Yeah, the full shebang.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
I think what's interesting in that role play
for me is I realized something.
So we're having theconversation.
And for me, believe it or not,and I've mentioned this in this
podcast before, I talk about sexfor a living, but when I'm with
a partner, where I struggle withmost is like talking about sex,
(38:01):
either durings, the dirty talk,role play.
I can seize up like that, andI'm getting better and better at
it, but it's difficult for me.
And so as you brought in, I'dlike you to tease me with talk,
I was like, oh, yeah, let's talkabout that.
But then you hooked me with Icould be down on my knees, and
I'm like, all right, let's go.
Now I can figure out the rest.
(38:22):
You just gave me, you justhooked me with something that I
desire.
SPEAKER_04 (38:27):
Yeah, no, because that's why that yes, maybe no
list is so crucial.
And on that point, that's alsoreally interesting when you
mentioned about the differentstages of the relationship.
Obviously, yes, we did a moresoft thing because I thought
we're lovers.
Maybe that's then in thatscenario, more practical.
How the language evolves thefurther down the line you get.
(38:49):
You can also be playful in yourlanguage outside of the bedroom.
I always find it really good tolearn that language fully
clothed.
A tip that I have in my course,The Joy Club, that came out this
year about spicing up yourlong-term relationship.
It's exactly that.
It's a hat.
You write down fantasies, eachof you, and it can be a fantasy
(39:12):
you want to have.
It can be anything, superrandom, super weird as well.
And you check them in the hat,and instead of date night in a
traditional sense, you pickthese fantasies out of the hat
and you talk about themhypothetically.
Now, neither of you know whetherthat's the fantasy you want to
(39:33):
have, but you end up havingthese conversations with words
neither of you really have.
But it becomes funny, it becomesfun, it becomes lighthearted,
and that helps you then progressinto something more intense
because then it's exactly whatyou just said.
If I then say, let's talk aboutwhat's a good example, something
(39:56):
a little bit more down the line.
Pegging.
For a lot of heterosexualcouples, that comes much, much
later.
And pegging is something wherethere will be a lot of
hesitation often from the maleside, or not, but let's assume
it's that.
And if you pull that fantasy outof the hat, you notice quite
(40:17):
quickly what language you'representing.
And then it's interesting.
Do I question my language?
If I've grown up, I don't, Igrew up in a Catholic country.
For me, something like that,even though I'm very open, at
first will be like, oh, can't dothat though, can you?
Like, no, no, no, no, no.
And to find those words witheach other and to meet in the
(40:41):
middle and find compromises, andit might not be pegging at
first, it might literally justbe anal play.
Becomes magical.
And you've got somethingphysical in your hand, and you
don't have to have this ominousfantasy between you to actually
have a conversation about it.
So there are so many differentways in, depending on where you
(41:03):
are in your relationship, but tokeep it light and playful is
essential.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
Yeah, for sure.
Being able to laugh at thething, and even if it's nervous
laughter at first, right?
And then to slowly be able toget into the language and turn
it from joking to something moreserious, which is usually what
happens, right?
After the nervous laughter getsout of the way and you start to
(41:29):
get a handle on it, and it'salready out in the open between
the two of you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:34):
Then you know, by the time I'm on my knees, things
get more intense most of thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
So you could start by asking well on your knees,
and that might go very well.
I'm just saying something I wasthinking in this conversation.
We've covered a lot, but puttingit in a package, thinking about
the timing, right, and thelocation.
And it can look like differentthings.
(42:00):
It can't look like you're at acoffee shop in a corner.
Maybe especially if you knowthat the two of you are kind of
voyeuristic and you know havinglittle sex to come.
Like that could be a hot time tobring up something, something
new, a new kink or somethingdirty, if you will.
I air quoted that from mylisteners because you know me.
(42:23):
I don't think of a lot as dirty,or it can be during aftercare
when your bodies are alreadysort of lit up, or it can be
during foreplay as you'regetting aroused and like talking
again when you already have thatbonding hormone like bringing
(43:39):
you together.
But you definitely don't want todrop it cold on someone.
They walk in from work andyou're like, Hey, I'd like to
peg your ass tonight.
How'd you feel about that?
That's funny.
Or I'd like to have a male,male, female threesome.
How do you feel about that,honey?
SPEAKER_04 (43:59):
Yeah.
And there's, I mean, I'm all foropen, honest communication.
And yes, 100% with you.
Time and place is essential andmood of your partner.
I'm also a fan of yeah, morecheeky approaches.
I'll throw two more things inthe pot if none of those worked
(44:21):
for anybody.
One thing I love to do with myhusband is to text each other.
So at first, it might not be Iwant an FFM or MMF or however,
but it might be starting theconversation because via text, I
can really be selective.
Sometimes it backfires, but Ican be very selective about what
(44:41):
I'm saying.
And I give my partner theopportunity to reflect and not
instantly react.
So I love that as well.
And like I said, you know, oryou can write a letter and
express what's on your mind.
That's more of an emotionalapproach, really.
So text messages are really goodto go for.
Or another favorite of mine isoh my god, darling.
(45:02):
So I was with my friend Susantoday, and she told me that her
husband, what do you think ofthat?
That's a way to still keep yourfantasy locked up in your heart
and your brain for a moment, butto get some sort of feeling or
inkling.
Now, if your partner reactswith, oh, well, that's
(45:24):
interesting, well, then itdoesn't matter the time or the
place.
And sometimes the kids arerunning around or the dogs just
pooped in the kitchen, but thenyour partner will want to have
that conversation all of asudden, and then you are all
there.
So for me, those are two moreapproaches that sort of take the
flame a little lower and giveyou a better opportunity to
gauge your partner's reaction.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Oh my God, I fucking love that.
Husband did it and loved it.
What a man! How do you feelabout it?
I like the idea of kind ofseeding, seeding fantasies, like
saying, Oh, I was listening tothis podcast the other day, and
they covered this thing that I'dnever heard of before.
(46:08):
And even if your partner'sthat's fucking weird, you can be
like, wait a second, why are youbeing judgmental about that?
That was kind of weird to you,but is it like I you can like,
and then it's not personalbecause if they say that's weird
when it's something it's yourdesire, and you're saying, I
want to do this thing, and theyhave that reaction, then it
(46:29):
becomes personal.
But if you're like, I heardabout this thing, and they react
that way to something you heardabout somewhere else, it doesn't
feel as personal.
And it gives you the opportunityto not challenge their feelings,
but to say, hey, maybe thinkabout why you feel that way,
because I actually think it'sinteresting, right?
(46:51):
Then you start to enter aconversation and it's not it's
not so personal, it doesn't feellike someone's saying something
about you, right?
SPEAKER_04 (47:00):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And then you have to Google itjust to show your partner.
If it's the octopus fantasy, myGod, Google it.
Yeah.
Yeah, there are there are lotsof different ways in wow, that
came out just the way I intendedit to.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
You could say, okay, you feel judgmental about it,
but I'm gonna handcuff you andturn on some porn with this
fantasy, and we'll watch ittogether and then tell me what
you think.
SPEAKER_04 (47:30):
Yeah.
And I there there's also so muchmagic because understanding your
partner, if it's not your loverand you've only just met and
you're you're going forsomething where you know it
might blow their mind and you'reusing this approach.
But if you know your partner,then you'll also know how they
might want it presented.
And in the way that thiscolleague of mine joked about
(47:52):
the PowerPoint presentation, ifwe're talking alien role play,
you'll have your motivations onthat PowerPoint presentation.
But if your partner's moreemotional, you might say, I
watched Gillian Anderson in TheX-Files my entire childhood, and
I really enjoyed the way the twoof them kind of played and the
(48:12):
alien app it's a completelydifferent in.
It's an emotional in.
And, you know, this bleeds intohow you then negotiate your
scene or what you're playing,because using metaphors, it sets
a tone.
I mean, I'm an author, so thisis my daily business.
Using metaphors like theweather.
(48:32):
So with the weather, I mean likewhen we enter this game, or if
we if we want to do this scene,are we thinking it's more like a
storm, a hurricane, it'sintense, or are we going with a
light breeze and we we kind ofevolve and we move
homogeneously?
What kind of scene are weentering into?
Or I mean, I love using food.
(48:55):
Are we going for somethingreally spicy, or is it going to
be more bitter?
Or all these kinds of tastes andflavors and ideas and scenes,
they change the way we speakabout it.
They change the way we approachour partner.
And the better we know eachother, the easier we can catch
them.
You know, for me, when I said onmy knees, your reaction showed
(49:19):
me, okay, I can work with that,right?
You know, I can exactly gaugewhat the weather needs to be
like with you on most days.
You know, if you're a switch,that changes, but I can work
with that.
And it sounds sneaky, but it'san easier way to have a
conversation if you know yourpartner will definitely jump on
(49:40):
board if you present it in acertain way.
SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
Right, right.
Side note, Jillian Anderson.
Do you have the same crush Ihave?
SPEAKER_04 (49:52):
Oh my god.
Stop.
Which which I mean, which womandoesn't?
Honestly, I don't know.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (50:03):
She just keep getting better.
SPEAKER_04 (50:05):
She just gets better.
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Just gets better.
What supplement is this womantaking?
And I'm like, I fall more deeplyin love with her every time I
stalk her on Instagram.
SPEAKER_04 (50:20):
Yeah.
See, but you know, that would beyour why.
That would be like, Annette, Iwant to be Gillian Anderson for
you.
Yes.
How can we meet in the middle?
What is it I need to be doing?
I want to fulfill that dream foryou.
You know, it's also so muchabout compromise as well,
because I love my partner and Iwant them to be happy.
(50:42):
And if that means finding a wayto fulfill their fantasy, then I
want to talk about it.
I always give the example, youknow, one of us wants to have
Thai, the other one wants tohave Indian.
Well, let's compromise.
Maybe we say today we do Thai,next week we do Indian, if we
have lots of money, becausetakeaway is really expensive
nowadays.
Or we say, why do we get both?
(51:03):
And then I'll try some of yoursand you can try some of mine.
And like finding, again, it's aconversation, it's not a
contract.
And we want to feel safe and wewant to feel trust.
And all of that just leads intoall the safe words.
And it's actually funny becauseI'm talking about food now.
We have a let me take it back asecond.
(51:24):
Daily life.
We spoke about having thislanguage in the bedroom, but
also outside of the bedroom.
And negotiating kinks also meansnegotiating our our traffic
light system, we are green,yellow, red in our game, in our
play, and having a safe word.
And when people choose theirsafe words, sometimes it's just
(51:45):
really random.
I like to do things that you canuse in daily life.
So that might be basil orparsley.
And what we then do is we carryit into every day.
So we're with we're in thesupermarket, or it doesn't even
need to be the supermarket.
(52:05):
We can be with friends and we'llsay, hmm, darling, I really
fancy some basil today.
And suddenly we've moved thewhole conversation out of the
bedroom, and we again feel moreenticed to talk about it out in
the open.
I don't know how I got therejust now, but Gillian Anderson.
SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
It evolved into food.
It started with how you could bemy Gillian Anderson.
That's what that's how itstarted.
I like the idea of creatingwords around intimacy that you
can then throw out in a sexyway.
And when you're around otherpeople too.
SPEAKER_04 (52:39):
So I might call you Scully, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (52:42):
That might be that might be the daily, daily
routine.
Well you can combine all ofthese elements because I can
then send you a voice messagelater on.
I can say, I'm gonna be sendingyou a voice message later on,
Scully.
We'll we'll talk.
And you can combine all theseelements and it builds up that
anticipation at the end of theday.
SPEAKER_00 (53:02):
Right.
And that is how negotiationbecomes hot.
It becomes the foreplay forfuture sex, right?
So let's put this in a littlepackage.
I would like you to put this ina little package for my
listeners who have been likelistening and getting ideas and
seeing our little role play, butnow they're like, okay, well,
(53:24):
but where do I start when I gohome tonight or this afternoon
or whatever?
Give them a little package ofthe things to consider and how
to set themselves up for successin their conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (53:39):
First of all, know that there's no right way to do
it.
There's just your way.
And your desires are valid andyour needs are great the way
they are.
Whatever it is that's bubblingup inside you, be sure that
you've done your research, doneyour homework.
(53:59):
You're not blurting out with onesentence and you don't know what
to say anymore.
I like to say, have the five W'sat hand, which is who, what,
where, when, why.
And you can write it down if youlike.
I'm a big fan of just jottingdown a couple of notes before
you go into a conversation likethat.
Your motivation.
I love to connect beforehand.
(54:21):
So you can write something downlike, I really value our
connection.
I feel so much trust toward youand with you.
I feel safe with you.
And only then do we enter theconversation.
When you enter the conversation,be open, make sure time and
(54:42):
place, like we said before, areappropriate.
And find a way that's not toomuch.
Don't load too much on yourpartner at once.
Give a little glimpse into yourworld, what you've been
thinking.
Try and make it picturesque.
I always say take your partnerby the hand and lead them
through what's been goingthrough your brain.
(55:04):
Because you're more likely touse descriptive words, you're
more likely to paint them apicture that feels like you
because it is you.
And then be patient.
Be patient.
Give your partner space.
A lot of things might come up.
It might be shame, it might becultural conditioning, it might
(55:24):
be resistance, there might bequite a lot of negative
emotions.
If they're positive emotions,then this, you know, quick tip
guide stops right here.
But if there are negativeemotions, try to self-regulate,
still set a time when you'd liketo reconvene and speak about it.
Because I can tell you, if youdon't, it will keep bubbling
(55:46):
inside you until it bursts, andthen you will start feeling
resent.
And no relationship has ever wonwith a huge amount of resent.
So hold your space, but givethem time.
And if you then find your waytogether, and this is the
beautiful part where itcontinues, start writing a
script.
Start asking questions.
(56:08):
Start you can even do it fullyclothed, playing out what you'd
like to do.
When we're clothed, we're lessvulnerable.
So just start playing it out.
You can be in the kitchen duringbroad daylight, what you'd like
to do, and use language.
And if you're struggling to findwords, like we said before, you
know, you can find it in diversemedia, or try and just say out
(56:32):
loud your senses.
I feel hesitation.
I sense resistance in my body,or, and this is where it gets
nice and playful, I can smellyour aftershave.
That makes me feel secure again.
I can feel your body on mine,makes me feel safe again.
(56:56):
So that you're always stayingwith you in any kind of
situation, even if you're justrole-playing it out loud.
And last but not least, ifyou've managed to do all of
these things, don't forgetthat's not how it's then gonna
go every single time.
So talk about it.
Talk about what you liked, whatyou perhaps didn't like.
Have a brainstorm.
(57:17):
What could you imagine doing thenext time?
And it evolves, it changes, andbe aware of that and invite that
kind of playfulness into yourrelationship, and you can only
win from there.
SPEAKER_00 (57:30):
All right, guys, there you got it.
You've got you are set up forsuccess.
We have talked you through thedifferent parts.
We have role-played, I thoughtvery successfully and
realistically.
And now you've got it all in alittle go bag.
So go go forth and get yourkinks and fantasies fulfilled.
(57:54):
That's what I'm wishing for you.
And what I would like now is foryou to take a moment to tell my
listeners where they can findyou also, where they can read
your erotica.
I'm I'm going to go read someerotica.
I'm very curious now.
But where they can find all ofthe things you do and get in
touch with you.
SPEAKER_04 (58:15):
So my webpage is pleasepinchmehard.com.
Consensually always, first andforemost.
And there I have a wholepotpourri of blog posts, but you
can also already read some of myshort stories for free.
There are lots of articles allabout pleasure and kinks and
(58:35):
also more holistic things aboutmental health and things that
feed into our sexuality andrelationships.
You can buy my book.
It's called Give It to Me,short, naughty, short, naughty
stories.
And you can buy that on Amazon.
And you can also listen to itread by me on all podcast
(58:58):
platforms.
So if you prefer me in yourears, then I can centrally say
yes.
And then there's also my secondpractical book, which is your
complete sexuality workbook thathas, oh my goodness, over 100
exercises.
It's very project manager, andit's everything from our mind,
(59:20):
our body, our sexual voicerelationships.
It's got lots of inspirationabout kinks.
It's also got how to talk aboutkinks, and it's for solo and
partnered use.
That's available in German andEnglish.
And on top of that, obviously,there's my Instagram where I
share lots of random, filthystuff, which is also please
pinch me hard.
(59:40):
And there's my podcast, which isdeep and dirty.
That's bilingual.
And it's a whole mix, all sortsof experts, Shibari, Cervix,
Femdom.
I've had porn performers.
It's a bit of everything.
And I absolutely love it.
And of course, on Joy Club.
So for anybody who does want todo a workshop with me, I have
(01:00:04):
one coming up in November.
So check out Joy Club.
I always find it's also a reallygood place to learn language,
exactly what we've been speakingabout.
Because there you have so manypeople who are already in the
scene who you can talk to.
And yeah, my workshops there arealso in English.
So you can catch me there andalso ask questions.
(01:00:25):
I think that's it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:27):
There you go, guys.
You're not going to get boredanytime soon.
There's plenty of Lisa to goaround.
How exciting.
So make sure to go and check herout.
Do some reading.
It's going to be good for you.
Do some listening.
It's going to be better for you.
And thank you so much forjoining me for this conversation
and for being willing torole-play with me a little bit.
(01:00:49):
I think that this is going to bevery useful to all of my
listeners who have reached outoften with this specific
question and problem.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:00:59):
Thank you so much.
And just don't forget, if itsounds silly, that's fine.
Laugh about it.
I do it on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:08):
Me too.
SPEAKER_04 (01:01:09):
Thank you, Annette.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:10):
Thank you.
And to my listeners, until nexttime.
I'll see you in the locker room.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:15):
Cheers.
Thank you.
I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast
formerly known as Locker RoomTalk and Shots.
The show has a new name, TalkSex with Annette.
But at its core, this is stillyour locker room.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious, and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink,dating, pleasure, and desire.
Around here, nothing's offlimits.
(01:52):
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends, and of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest, and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you.
And if you're new, welcome to mypodcast where desire meets
disruption and pleasure becomespower.
(02:14):
Now, let's talk about sex.
Cheers.
Right, Low.
Today's Talk Sex within it topicis how to negotiate kink like a
pro and make it hot, notawkward.
What if the sexiest part of kinkisn't the flogger or the rope,
(02:35):
but the conversation thathappens before?
Today we're diving into one ofthe most misunderstood but
crucial parts of BDSM and kinknegotiation.
This isn't just about safety,it's about trust, desire, and
building erotic tension longbefore you've ever even touched
(02:56):
each other.
And I have the perfect guest tobe our guide on learning how to
negotiate our kink and BDSMdesires.
My guest today is Lisa Opel, apleasure coach at Joy Club,
author of Erotic LiteratureExploring Kink and BDSM, TED
Talk Speaker, and educator whoteaches people around the world
(03:20):
how to negotiate scenes that arenot just consensual, but
electric.
Together, we're going to breakdown exactly how to talk about
your desires, limits, andboundaries in a way that makes
negotiation itself part of theturn-on.
But before we dive in, I want toremind you that I'm over on
OnlyFans, and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos,
(03:42):
demos, and audio guidedself-pleasure meditations.
I'm also offering coaching.
Basically, if you are not readyto dive into and commit to a
full coaching regimen, I'mgiving you the opportunity to
ask me one-off questions that Iwill answer for you there.
And you can find me there undermy handle at Talk Sex withinet.
(04:03):
You can find me on Substackdoing a whole lot of the same
minus the coaching and demosunder the same handle at Talk
Sex with the Net, or you canscroll down to the show notes
and find all the links towherever you want to find me.
I'm looking forward to seeingyou there.
But for now, Lisa, will you takea moment to tell my listeners a
little bit more about you?
SPEAKER_04 (04:24):
Hello, Annette, and thank you so much for having me
this evening.
And the way you introduced mewas already perfect.
I think what was actuallymissing, though, was the more
personal side, why I starteddoing it.
And that feeds seamlessly intothe topic this evening.
Because me writing, I have toadd realistic erotic literature.
(04:47):
What do I mean by realistic?
I mean I show all those perhapsawkward moments, all those
things that are not normallyshown in porn, in rom com,
whether it's the orgasmdifficulties, the menstruation
sex, the postpartum mum, becausethese are the things we don't
talk about and for which we'renot given language.
And I started writing when Irealized I don't have the
(05:11):
language to talk about mydesires, my needs, my wants, my
limits after becoming a mum.
So my journey into this wholeworld derived from a place of
utter desperation, which gave memaximum motivation to learn that
vocabulary pretty fast.
(05:31):
And nowadays, the wordnegotiation, it used to make me
itch.
Now I love it.
It's an integral part of myrelationship.
I've been with my husband for 18years, and we negotiate like
pros over big and small kinksand needs and wants.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
I love that.
I think something that peopledon't talk about a lot is that
real sex, real eroticism,including the awkward moments
and the things that aredifficult are what actually make
sex sexy.
The realness and the rawness andthe primal part of it is what
(06:15):
makes it yummy.
And a lot of that gets strippedaway in mainstream media and
porn, right?
Because they do the cleaned upversion of it.
And that's why people often lookfor amateur porn or, you know,
the unpolished is what reallycan turn them on.
And so I could see how thatwould be the same in erotica.
(06:37):
And this leads beautifully intohow we can take those moments
that pop up in our our sex life,especially when we're trying to
talk to a new or a long-termpartner about these desires for
kinks, fetishes, or just newexperiences and that we're
afraid they're gonna think areweird or that are gonna turn
(06:59):
them off or scare them away.
I get a lot of requests fromlisteners asking me, like, how
do I like talk to my partnerabout this?
Or I'm afraid I'm gonna talk tomy partner and they're gonna
leave me or they're gonna shutme down.
And then what if I don't everget to experience this thing I
want to experience?
(07:20):
Well, today we are gonna map howyou can start to have that
conversation with your partnerand how you can start having the
kind of anything that you wantto.
So by the end of this podcast,you guys are gonna have all of
you, and I know I have so manyunanswered emails out there with
this exact question.
(07:40):
All of you who have reached outto me, and all those of you out
there listening or watching onmy YouTube channel by the end of
this episode, you're gonna haveyour starter pack for the
conversations to get you to aplace of negotiating kinks, BDSM
desires, or even just anydifferent desire that you'd like
(08:01):
to bring into your bedroom withyour partner.
So stay to the end.
So you can take that step you'vebeen wanting to stop to take.
I'm ready.
I'm ready just to dive into it.
Absolutely.
All right, cheers.
Let's talk about getting kinky.
Cheers.
Cheers.
At the time of this recording,we are in the middle of
(08:23):
Kinktober, by the way.
So this is a fun time to havethe conversation.
But Kinktober just leads intocuffing season.
So this conversation is perfectbecause in cuffing season, we've
hooked up and we're ready to dothe kinky things through the
cold season to get us through tothe warm weather, right?
(08:44):
So what I want to start thisconversation with is why do you
think so many people think ofthe negotiation part of kink as
a buzzkill?
SPEAKER_04 (08:59):
When I got the invitation from you to come in
your podcast, the first thing Ilooked at was actually the word
negotiating.
And I took about a hundred stepsback and I remembered how I felt
when I didn't have the words forwhat I was feeling and what I
wanted to say.
And the word negotiation assuch, it sounds so stiff, so
(09:23):
hard.
We know it from the businessworld, and it's all about
contracts.
And I think the first thing weneed to be aware of is
negotiating and negotiations,they're not contracts, they're
conversations.
So we're leading theseconversations with curiosity,
we're leading with playfulness.
(09:43):
At the end of the day, we wantto negotiate with our partner
together in order to createsomething.
And instead of seeing it assomething where I need to
exactly put down black and whitewhat it is I want and what it is
I need, and create boundariesand limits and all these things,
to see it from a differentangle.
(10:05):
We want to create a safeenvironment.
We want emotional trust.
And this becomes our playground.
The negotiation for me isnothing other than a safe space
in which we get to explore whowe are, what we want to do, and
to fill this space with as muchlove and intimacy and connection
(10:27):
as we possibly can.
Now, where I notice all the timethat people who ask these
questions, where do I start?
What do I do?
What do I say?
Give me one sentence, Lisa, andI'm going to use that sentence
tonight with my partner, isagain to take a quick step back,
(10:47):
to consider our needs, first andforemost.
And I see it a bit likeself-prep or homework to say, if
you go into a business meeting,you know what you're
negotiating.
So first and foremost, what isit I want?
What is it I'm desiring?
And I can add a tip straightaway.
I'm a very practical person, myapproach.
(11:08):
What helped me enormously was tocreate a yes, maybe, no list.
So we throw the word kink in theroom, and it is so big, it's
like an elephant.
So for me, it was about thinkingwhat is it I'd really like to
do?
What is it I maybe want to do?
And what do I not want to do?
And even these things, they'restill up for negotiation, play
(11:31):
on words intended.
But again, it's not about havingthis clear idea of this is
exactly what I want to do, butto fill it playfully.
When I have found out what Iwant to be doing, I need to find
the language.
Now, for me, it was eroticliterature.
(11:51):
It helped.
And things like amateur porn,they can also help in finding
vocabulary.
And I think it's more than justsaying, I want to, and to find a
playful approach in thinking, doI want it to be intense?
Do I want it to be poetic?
And this inner mindset, itchanges the way we express
(12:14):
something.
So to find my language,journaling was something that
really helped me, something thatI still laugh about because I
imagine myself to be like adetective at a crime scene with
a little dictaphone.
I sent myself voice messages.
Because one of my biggeststruggles was it sounded so
silly coming out of my mouth.
(12:36):
So once I know what I'minterested in and what I'm
intrigued about and what I wouldlike to talk about, I try to
say, and you, I mean, you can doit in front of the mirror in the
morning or in any way, shape, orform, but to actually hear your
voice is quite empowering.
And so we become more embodiedin our desires.
(12:57):
And there's a plethora ofdifferent places you can find
this vocabulary and, you know,just research, put the private
browser history on, whatever.
But there are so many ways tofirst and foremost find out what
it is we want.
And this is already such a bigpart of meeting our partner in
(13:18):
the middle when we talk aboutthis, but it helps us regulate.
And what I actually neglectedwas I thought my partner was so
open.
And normally it's the other wayaround.
So you approach your partner andyou're perhaps expecting a no.
I wasn't.
And the idea of self-regulation,I hadn't considered at all.
(13:40):
What if my partner says no?
How do I regulate?
So I think in retrospect, Iwould also add to this little
homework to do before you eventalk to your partner is to say,
what if they say no off thecuff?
Is there perhaps wiggle room?
Is it, okay, would you like togo and think about it for two
days and then we can reconveneand revisit this conversation?
(14:03):
Or was it too much all at once?
So to be prepared for thisconversation also means I need
to be able to take care ofmyself.
The last part that for me wasessential was self-consent.
Telling myself I'm allowed tohave desires, to have wants and
(14:24):
needs.
And, you know, that is that isshrouded in shame and taboo and
cultural conditioning and girls,good girls don't ask.
I mean, really good girls, theydo ask and they get.
But so that's that right.
(14:45):
But there is there are so manycliches also that men always
want.
So all of that, I mean, that isjust such a huge part of our
sexual history.
And for me, it was too.
I came from such a Disney fairytale kind of world, and I
thought, ah, you know, is itokay if my if I ask my partner
if he wants to be pegged?
Is that crazy for me to say?
(15:06):
And spoiler, it's not crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (15:09):
There are several things you said that really do
tie in to negotiation, right?
Because the question is, how doI ask for and negotiate my
sexual needs?
And how do you ask for andnegotiate something that number
one, you don't feel the right towant?
If you still feel ashamed andconflicted about your own
(15:32):
desires, you're going tostruggle to be effective at
negotiating them.
If you don't fully understandyour desires in bed, it's going
to be hard to negotiate thembecause around most desires,
there are adjacent activitiesthat you can negotiate for.
(15:53):
So for instance, let's sayspanking, what you brought up,
that's very common.
Us curlies at least once arelike, hmm, what would end, you
know, maybe your desire is, hey,I want to be turned over a knee,
fully panties down, spanked witha butt plug in, and I want to
(16:14):
call you daddy.
Maybe that's the full desire.
And your partner has never liketalked about kink, seems pretty
like vanilla, and you're like,oh my gosh, how do I get this
fantasy to come true?
Well, if you haven't mapped outyour full fantasy, and if you
don't feel like, okay, this isnormal and a shame-free desire,
(16:34):
then you go into the negotiationand you're like, hey, I want to
be spanked, and I kind of wantthis thing.
I'd like it to look like this.
You're not using stronglanguage, you're not
self-assured, you'rewishy-washy, and you're like, I
kind of like to be every knee,and I don't know.
I know this sounds weird, butcould I call you daddy?
And he's whoa, whoa.
Now, if then if you don't reallyknow your desire, then you can't
(16:57):
be like, Hey, can we start withlike just adding, can you slap
my ass during sex?
I want to see what that feelslike.
You can like downgrade, like,you don't want that full scene
great, but could you just tryslapping my ass during sex?
SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
And what really helps sometimes is to reframe it
and to tell your partner,because that energy that you
just brought, I mean, it waspalpable, right?
It was like, I mean, anybody whodoesn't go, oh yeah, tell me
more.
Like, how how do you imagine itto be?
Where would you like to be?
Like, let's talk about thescene.
Where are you seated?
Where am I seated?
Is it night?
Is it day?
Let's talk about it.
(18:28):
And then you get invested inthis story, in this scene.
And if a partner doesn't feelthat fire, what often helps is
saying why you want to do it.
And that's where I notice,particularly for women, why do I
want to be spanked?
And this can be, and this iswhere my playfulness comes
(18:50):
through.
This can be something as simpleas I have decision fatigue.
I have been making decisions thewhole day.
I'm a mom of two.
I have had to make a milliondecisions.
Tonight, I just want to liethere, take it like a good girl,
and you have full control.
(19:11):
And you can do whatever you likewith me.
Preferably, it's my butt, I'mbeing spanked.
But this is why I want it.
Because it gives you thepersonal, the emotional side of
it again, which is morecomprehensible in a relationship
where love and intimacy andunderstanding is the foundation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
I just think the way you say I just want to lie there
like a good girl is is going tobe a winning line in almost any
situation.
I just want to lie there like agood girl for you.
Like I'm like and you can dothat.
SPEAKER_04 (19:49):
Oh, I'm I'm a switch.
So I can be good, but I can alsobe very bad.
But that's the magic in it.
I I believe this why, this fire,the essence, the why do I want
to do it?
Why do I want I'm bisexual?
So why do I want to peg you?
Because I want to be inside you.
(20:10):
I want to be as close aspossible.
I want your face in my face.
I want to be in you fully, and Iwant to hear you moan while we
are chest to chest.
This is the why, and it becomesa more emotional response.
And that is so much easier totalk about than I want my hand
(20:32):
to touch your bum.
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
I love the idea of really bringing that emotional
part and the sexy emotionalpart.
It's because what you're taughttelling them is the desire
behind the kink.
Here's the desire, and desire issexy and it's erotic.
And partners want that sexy andwant that erotic, and it's going
(20:57):
to be much more appeal.
You know, desire and eroticismbring fear down a little bit.
So maybe it's a little scary tothink about someone in your
butt.
Understandable, understandable,but then when it's expressed in
an erotic way, it's a littleless scary and a little bit more
(21:18):
sexy.
And you're sort of bring downthe fear, bring up the turn on,
bring down the fear, bring upthe turn on, right?
SPEAKER_04 (21:26):
That's it.
And at the end of the day, nomatter what it is, I mean, it
completely always depends onwhere are you in your
relationship, how's yourcommunication in general.
And I know for many people,really having a voice, having a
sexual voice is something thatI've been spending a lot of time
researching because, like wesaid at the beginning, we're not
(21:49):
taught how to speak in erotic,are we?
I write letters.
Now, this is the romantic in mespeaking, not the one who wants
to peg someone.
For many people, if if somethingfeels too big, like you just
said, sort of bringing the fearlevel down, I also love the idea
of writing a letter.
(22:09):
I once joked with a colleague,she said, yeah, yeah, do you
like a PowerPoint presentation?
Go all in.
Send your partner a PowerPointpresentation about, you know,
facts, statistics, why you wantto do it, your five top
motivations for doing it.
When we bring that playfulnessin, it stops being, I want to
(22:29):
stick a dildo up your bum hole.
And it starts being this is theconnection I'm craving for these
reasons.
And I mean, playfulness ingeneral is underrated in our
sexuality, but also in kink,there is so much potential in
kink and BDSM to use humor todiffuse certain situations.
(22:52):
And by humor, I'm not sayinglet's laugh about our boundaries
and our safe words, but it givesus a different approach in
ensuring we feel safe, becauseonly when we feel safe can we
then truly play.
I like to call it reverseengineering safety.
So we kind of start basicallywith aftercare.
(23:13):
So instead of saying, I want tospank your bum if if we go with
that example, maybe we'resaying, you know, when we're
finished, whatever it might be,let's just leave the act as it
is.
We don't know what the act isyet.
We don't know the scene.
We're gonna concentrate on theedges, on on making it safe,
like a sandwich.
So we're gonna start with how weare gonna do it?
(23:36):
Would you like me to ease you inwith words?
Perhaps role play could be anidea.
Maybe we wanna go a traditionalschool girl teacher scenario or
the office scenario.
And then we encapsule the actthat we've not spoken about yet
with the aftercare.
And I'm a big fan of using lovelanguages, not in a sense of we
(24:00):
all have one, but what is it youneed to soothe your nervous
system after?
So for me, for example, I lovewords.
I'm more of a go shower thanstay lying in bed.
I go shower, we have a drink, asnack, and we talk about it.
We're kind of framing whateverit is that might happen with
(24:21):
safety.
And that makes talking aboutthat scary thing a little bit
easier as well.
And the aftercare in particular,I put such a focus on because
for me, aftercare is foreplay.
Because that's when werecalibrate, like in that
conversation of I really enjoyedit when you were inside me and
(24:45):
you looked into my eyes and youtold me how much it meant to
you, or all these kinds, they'reforeplay.
It's already getting excited forthe next game.
So perhaps a different way tolook at it with a partner is to
create that safety net first andthen leap into it with a
(25:05):
parachute for the sake of abetter example right now.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
I love that you say that aftercare is foreplay for
the next time.
I I have a whole how-to onaftercare, folks.
I will tag that below.
But it is those conversationsare setting the stage for the
next time you're together.
I want to do something I'venever done before.
I want to invite you to askconsent for, if you will.
(25:32):
I think something fun we coulddo for listeners is you and I
could role-play negotiating akinker desire.
We can pretend like we'repartners and there is a kink
that you want to negotiate withme, and you can demonstrate in
(26:52):
this conversation how it wouldbe negotiated.
Are you are you down?
SPEAKER_03 (26:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
All right, uh, don't even tell me what which kink.
I want you to surprise me withwhat you're gonna ask me for.
Okay.
Surprise me.
SPEAKER_04 (27:10):
Yeah.
And I think it it deserves alittle extra mention to say,
because this is where theperformance-related aspect
always comes in, that people arenow expecting the perfect
conversation.
And I think that's the mostimportant bit because there is
no perfect negotiation.
And so I say to everyonelistening, enjoy because it it
(27:34):
might be hilariously wonky andwho knows what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
Okay, wait, first of all, are we long-term partners
or are we new lovers?
SPEAKER_04 (27:43):
Maybe we're lovers.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Brand new lovers.
Okay, am I a penis owner or am Ijust who I am?
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
Who would you like?
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
Like a man.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Would you like to?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Who would I?
I think I kind of want to be aguy.
SPEAKER_04 (27:58):
Can I be a guy for this conversation?
Okay.
Yes.
I often wish I had a penis, soit's very suitable.
I just want to know what itfeels like.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yeah, I just want to know what it feels like just
once to put my penis inside ofall the like so bad.
In uh inside of vagina, not ofall the sorry, folks.
I want I want to enter a womanwith a real penis.
God, I think it would feel realgood.
SPEAKER_04 (28:22):
Yeah, I think so too.
Yeah.
I my mind's already wanderingoff right now.
I need to think of somethingthat us lovers are gonna do.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Let me think.
And then where are we havingthis conversation?
It depends on I think we are Ithink we're in a no, we're not
in a cafe.
SPEAKER_04 (28:52):
I mean, this is the kind of stuff that I love to do
because it adds the extra levelof taboo for me.
For everybody listening, youknow, you can do that kind of
thing.
It already starts everything asvery, very sexy.
I think maybe we've actuallyjust had sex.
So intimacy is possibly at avery high level.
We feel trust, we feelconnected, we're we're really
(29:13):
there.
And yeah, and I feel safe enoughto open up to you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
This is fascinating.
This is a great tip, guys.
When you're already connected,you've just had orgasms, your
the bonding hormones are alreadylike in full force.
Adrenaline, everything's kind ofsounding yummy.
That's a good time.
All right, I like it.
Okay, I like it.
Let's go.
SPEAKER_04 (29:36):
I'm I'm not gonna give you a name, we're just
gonna roll with it.
Let's roll with it.
Okay.
Listen, there's something I'vebeen thinking about.
And I'd love for you to hear meout.
And it's up to you whether youwant to answer straight away.
(29:58):
Maybe you don't.
That's also totally fine.
If we could possibly talk about,you know, when you'd like to get
back to me, that would make mefeel safe and it wouldn't leave
me wondering or tense.
I'd like to talk to you aboutsomething I have imagined trying
in the bedroom.
How do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
All right, all right.
I'm interested.
SPEAKER_04 (30:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
Nervous.
SPEAKER_04 (30:23):
All right, okay, don't be nervous.
Don't be nervous.
It's quite playful and it'ssomething I've never done
before.
I have never been handcuffedbefore and blindfolded, and then
had somebody have their way withme.
(30:47):
And the reason I'm interested indoing this is because I'm
normally quite active in thebedroom and I really trust you,
and I feel like I would be ableto let go, feel safe, and that
we could have quite an intimateand touching time together.
(31:10):
And I'm completely open as towhat have your way means, and
I'd love to talk to you aboutwhether that's toys or maybe
something different or sex orforeplay.
But I really like the idea ofbeing restrained and entirely at
your mercy.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
Okay, all right.
Yeah, so yeah, I guess I want totalk more about what have my way
means.
Like you said it's up to me, butwhat is what's your fantasy
about this?
Because I'm not clear on that.
SPEAKER_04 (31:48):
I that's great.
Thank you.
And thank you for being open andlistening.
I guess I would I love words, soI would love for you to build
anticipation because I'mblindfolded, I don't really know
what's going on yet.
And like I said, maybe it is sexand playing and oral and all the
(32:10):
things we've been doing untilnow, but in a different space,
so that I don't really knowwhat's going on.
And I'd love perhaps if youcould lead with words so that
you're teasing me.
And maybe because I don't knowwhat's happening, it would feel
different for me.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
So you want me to say what I'm gonna do?
What does teasing mean?
SPEAKER_04 (32:37):
Because maybe we can even yeah, maybe we can even
build up to it before.
Maybe we could roleplay into it.
So maybe there's something thathappens before, so that we get
in the mood.
Maybe you could be more dominantand I would feed into that.
(32:58):
And perhaps it would mean mebeing on my knees or something
happening.
You like that?
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
I like that.
I like that.
SPEAKER_04 (33:06):
Okay, okay.
Well, that's good.
We've found found something incommon.
I like that very much.
Maybe you tell me to get on myknees too.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
I could do that, I absolutely could do that.
So I like that.
I like that.
I love the idea of playing.
With restraint and giving it atry.
I've done it twice before.
So you have?
Who opened that?
I think uh where I s might needmore direction is I'm not great
(33:38):
at necessarily role play or sextalk.
Maybe like the around thelanguage.
Like I sometimes feel awkward.
So they're like maybe if wecould figure out what you want
there, so I don't make it so itdoesn't feel awkward in the
moment.
SPEAKER_04 (33:58):
So I did my homework a little bit, and I'd be lying
if I said I didn't look intothese things and research a
little bit.
And I found a couple of pornosthat have great language.
Perhaps we could watch themtogether.
Done.
SPEAKER_00 (34:19):
We're there.
You are a tied up.
I am watching porn.
I don't know, feeding youpopcorn or or or strawberries.
Well, you're restrained and I'mwatching your porn.
Is that what you want me to say?
Done.
SPEAKER_04 (34:35):
You know, what I was thinking actually was perhaps we
should have done it the otherway around.
Because I I'm not always notsure whether it's the women that
have all the fantasies anddesires or whether it's the men
and who meets who in the middle.
But I guess the same can applyin any direction.
I think the way I did it wasvery representative of any
gender in which direction itshould go.
(34:58):
And I guess if we were tocontinue the conversation, I'd
also include in the aftercareperhaps something like, you
know, I'm a bit worried abouthow my wrists will feel.
I'm worried about the effect itmight have on my body, because
another thing, particularly inKing Speedy SM, that we need to
be aware of is, and I'm notgoing to dive into it too far
(35:20):
because I'm not a specialist inthat area, but trauma responses.
So that if we are doing thingsthat cross boundaries, of
course, in the safe frame ofsafe words, it still might have
an effect.
And so aftercare is essentialphysically, verbally,
emotionally, so that it's notjust the glass of water and a
(35:40):
blanket.
Maybe sometimes it's it'stalking about whatever's come up
as well.
So a lot of the emotions thatcome up.
And if it has been restraints,maybe there's something there
that you want to talk about andsay to your partner, listen,
when you put them on, I feltthis and this, and it made me a
little uncomfortable.
Maybe next time we can, and youdon't need to make a therapist
(36:01):
session out of it, but to beaware that in our aftercare
conversations, those tiny littleelements, they also help
recalibrate then for the nextsession.
That's how we gain our languageand that's how we evolve in our
conversations also as a couple.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
And how the kink evolves, right?
So let's say you've negotiated arestraint, being restrained at
first.
And and what you it was kind ofa in my life, what you
negotiated there was kind ofsoft kink, like I'd like to
absolutely know how hard to go.
Could have been harder.
(36:38):
Yeah, sure.
But let's say your ultimatedesire maybe is bigger.
Maybe you're like, okay, this islike I'd like to start with you
restraining, and but deep downyou're like, eventually I want
X, Y, and Z, and it's moreintense.
This is a great way to starttowards that.
Hey, let's just start with somerestraining and get that down
(36:59):
and normalize that in ourrelationship so that whipping
out the ham cut handcuffs islike, well, we do that every
other week for fun, right?
And then from there in theseaftercare conversations, you can
recalibrate and say, Hey, howwould you feel about next time
including this thing?
And then building on it, almostset the foundation and then
(37:22):
start building up with you know,adding on.
Next thing you know, you've gothandcuffs hanging from the
ceiling and floggers in yourcloud.
SPEAKER_03 (37:32):
You got wax play, you got all sorts of full gags.
Yeah, the full shebang.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
I think what's interesting in that role play
for me is I realized something.
So we're having theconversation.
And for me, believe it or not,and I've mentioned this in this
podcast before, I talk about sexfor a living, but when I'm with
a partner, where I struggle withmost is like talking about sex,
(38:01):
either durings, the dirty talk,role play.
I can seize up like that, andI'm getting better and better at
it, but it's difficult for me.
And so as you brought in, I'dlike you to tease me with talk,
I was like, oh, yeah, let's talkabout that.
But then you hooked me with Icould be down on my knees, and
I'm like, all right, let's go.
Now I can figure out the rest.
(38:22):
You just gave me, you justhooked me with something that I
desire.
SPEAKER_04 (38:27):
Yeah, no, because that's why that yes, maybe no
list is so crucial.
And on that point, that's alsoreally interesting when you
mentioned about the differentstages of the relationship.
Obviously, yes, we did a moresoft thing because I thought
we're lovers.
Maybe that's then in thatscenario, more practical.
How the language evolves thefurther down the line you get.
(38:49):
You can also be playful in yourlanguage outside of the bedroom.
I always find it really good tolearn that language fully
clothed.
A tip that I have in my course,The Joy Club, that came out this
year about spicing up yourlong-term relationship.
It's exactly that.
It's a hat.
You write down fantasies, eachof you, and it can be a fantasy
(39:12):
you want to have.
It can be anything, superrandom, super weird as well.
And you check them in the hat,and instead of date night in a
traditional sense, you pickthese fantasies out of the hat
and you talk about themhypothetically.
Now, neither of you know whetherthat's the fantasy you want to
(39:33):
have, but you end up havingthese conversations with words
neither of you really have.
But it becomes funny, it becomesfun, it becomes lighthearted,
and that helps you then progressinto something more intense
because then it's exactly whatyou just said.
If I then say, let's talk aboutwhat's a good example, something
(39:56):
a little bit more down the line.
Pegging.
For a lot of heterosexualcouples, that comes much, much
later.
And pegging is something wherethere will be a lot of
hesitation often from the maleside, or not, but let's assume
it's that.
And if you pull that fantasy outof the hat, you notice quite
(40:17):
quickly what language you'representing.
And then it's interesting.
Do I question my language?
If I've grown up, I don't, Igrew up in a Catholic country.
For me, something like that,even though I'm very open, at
first will be like, oh, can't dothat though, can you?
Like, no, no, no, no, no.
And to find those words witheach other and to meet in the
(40:41):
middle and find compromises, andit might not be pegging at
first, it might literally justbe anal play.
Becomes magical.
And you've got somethingphysical in your hand, and you
don't have to have this ominousfantasy between you to actually
have a conversation about it.
So there are so many differentways in, depending on where you
(41:03):
are in your relationship, but tokeep it light and playful is
essential.
SPEAKER_00 (41:08):
Yeah, for sure.
Being able to laugh at thething, and even if it's nervous
laughter at first, right?
And then to slowly be able toget into the language and turn
it from joking to something moreserious, which is usually what
happens, right?
After the nervous laughter getsout of the way and you start to
(41:29):
get a handle on it, and it'salready out in the open between
the two of you.
SPEAKER_04 (41:34):
Then you know, by the time I'm on my knees, things
get more intense most of thetime.
SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
So you could start by asking well on your knees,
and that might go very well.
I'm just saying something I wasthinking in this conversation.
We've covered a lot, but puttingit in a package, thinking about
the timing, right, and thelocation.
And it can look like differentthings.
(42:00):
It can't look like you're at acoffee shop in a corner.
Maybe especially if you knowthat the two of you are kind of
voyeuristic and you know havinglittle sex to come.
Like that could be a hot time tobring up something, something
new, a new kink or somethingdirty, if you will.
I air quoted that from mylisteners because you know me.
(42:23):
I don't think of a lot as dirty,or it can be during aftercare
when your bodies are alreadysort of lit up, or it can be
during foreplay as you'regetting aroused and like talking
again when you already have thatbonding hormone like bringing
(43:39):
you together.
But you definitely don't want todrop it cold on someone.
They walk in from work andyou're like, Hey, I'd like to
peg your ass tonight.
How'd you feel about that?
That's funny.
Or I'd like to have a male,male, female threesome.
How do you feel about that,honey?
SPEAKER_04 (43:59):
Yeah.
And there's, I mean, I'm all foropen, honest communication.
And yes, 100% with you.
Time and place is essential andmood of your partner.
I'm also a fan of yeah, morecheeky approaches.
I'll throw two more things inthe pot if none of those worked
(44:21):
for anybody.
One thing I love to do with myhusband is to text each other.
So at first, it might not be Iwant an FFM or MMF or however,
but it might be starting theconversation because via text, I
can really be selective.
Sometimes it backfires, but Ican be very selective about what
(44:41):
I'm saying.
And I give my partner theopportunity to reflect and not
instantly react.
So I love that as well.
And like I said, you know, oryou can write a letter and
express what's on your mind.
That's more of an emotionalapproach, really.
So text messages are really goodto go for.
Or another favorite of mine isoh my god, darling.
(45:02):
So I was with my friend Susantoday, and she told me that her
husband, what do you think ofthat?
That's a way to still keep yourfantasy locked up in your heart
and your brain for a moment, butto get some sort of feeling or
inkling.
Now, if your partner reactswith, oh, well, that's
(45:24):
interesting, well, then itdoesn't matter the time or the
place.
And sometimes the kids arerunning around or the dogs just
pooped in the kitchen, but thenyour partner will want to have
that conversation all of asudden, and then you are all
there.
So for me, those are two moreapproaches that sort of take the
flame a little lower and giveyou a better opportunity to
gauge your partner's reaction.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Oh my God, I fucking love that.
Husband did it and loved it.
What a man! How do you feelabout it?
I like the idea of kind ofseeding, seeding fantasies, like
saying, Oh, I was listening tothis podcast the other day, and
they covered this thing that I'dnever heard of before.
(46:08):
And even if your partner'sthat's fucking weird, you can be
like, wait a second, why are youbeing judgmental about that?
That was kind of weird to you,but is it like I you can like,
and then it's not personalbecause if they say that's weird
when it's something it's yourdesire, and you're saying, I
want to do this thing, and theyhave that reaction, then it
(46:29):
becomes personal.
But if you're like, I heardabout this thing, and they react
that way to something you heardabout somewhere else, it doesn't
feel as personal.
And it gives you the opportunityto not challenge their feelings,
but to say, hey, maybe thinkabout why you feel that way,
because I actually think it'sinteresting, right?
(46:51):
Then you start to enter aconversation and it's not it's
not so personal, it doesn't feellike someone's saying something
about you, right?
SPEAKER_04 (47:00):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And then you have to Google itjust to show your partner.
If it's the octopus fantasy, myGod, Google it.
Yeah.
Yeah, there are there are lotsof different ways in wow, that
came out just the way I intendedit to.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
You could say, okay, you feel judgmental about it,
but I'm gonna handcuff you andturn on some porn with this
fantasy, and we'll watch ittogether and then tell me what
you think.
SPEAKER_04 (47:30):
Yeah.
And I there there's also so muchmagic because understanding your
partner, if it's not your loverand you've only just met and
you're you're going forsomething where you know it
might blow their mind and you'reusing this approach.
But if you know your partner,then you'll also know how they
might want it presented.
And in the way that thiscolleague of mine joked about
(47:52):
the PowerPoint presentation, ifwe're talking alien role play,
you'll have your motivations onthat PowerPoint presentation.
But if your partner's moreemotional, you might say, I
watched Gillian Anderson in TheX-Files my entire childhood, and
I really enjoyed the way the twoof them kind of played and the
(48:12):
alien app it's a completelydifferent in.
It's an emotional in.
And, you know, this bleeds intohow you then negotiate your
scene or what you're playing,because using metaphors, it sets
a tone.
I mean, I'm an author, so thisis my daily business.
Using metaphors like theweather.
(48:32):
So with the weather, I mean likewhen we enter this game, or if
we if we want to do this scene,are we thinking it's more like a
storm, a hurricane, it'sintense, or are we going with a
light breeze and we we kind ofevolve and we move
homogeneously?
What kind of scene are weentering into?
Or I mean, I love using food.
(48:55):
Are we going for somethingreally spicy, or is it going to
be more bitter?
Or all these kinds of tastes andflavors and ideas and scenes,
they change the way we speakabout it.
They change the way we approachour partner.
And the better we know eachother, the easier we can catch
them.
You know, for me, when I said onmy knees, your reaction showed
(49:19):
me, okay, I can work with that,right?
You know, I can exactly gaugewhat the weather needs to be
like with you on most days.
You know, if you're a switch,that changes, but I can work
with that.
And it sounds sneaky, but it'san easier way to have a
conversation if you know yourpartner will definitely jump on
(49:40):
board if you present it in acertain way.
SPEAKER_00 (49:44):
Right, right.
Side note, Jillian Anderson.
Do you have the same crush Ihave?
SPEAKER_04 (49:52):
Oh my god.
Stop.
Which which I mean, which womandoesn't?
Honestly, I don't know.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (50:03):
She just keep getting better.
SPEAKER_04 (50:05):
She just gets better.
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (50:08):
Just gets better.
What supplement is this womantaking?
And I'm like, I fall more deeplyin love with her every time I
stalk her on Instagram.
SPEAKER_04 (50:20):
Yeah.
See, but you know, that would beyour why.
That would be like, Annette, Iwant to be Gillian Anderson for
you.
Yes.
How can we meet in the middle?
What is it I need to be doing?
I want to fulfill that dream foryou.
You know, it's also so muchabout compromise as well,
because I love my partner and Iwant them to be happy.
(50:42):
And if that means finding a wayto fulfill their fantasy, then I
want to talk about it.
I always give the example, youknow, one of us wants to have
Thai, the other one wants tohave Indian.
Well, let's compromise.
Maybe we say today we do Thai,next week we do Indian, if we
have lots of money, becausetakeaway is really expensive
nowadays.
Or we say, why do we get both?
(51:03):
And then I'll try some of yoursand you can try some of mine.
And like finding, again, it's aconversation, it's not a
contract.
And we want to feel safe and wewant to feel trust.
And all of that just leads intoall the safe words.
And it's actually funny becauseI'm talking about food now.
We have a let me take it back asecond.
(51:24):
Daily life.
We spoke about having thislanguage in the bedroom, but
also outside of the bedroom.
And negotiating kinks also meansnegotiating our our traffic
light system, we are green,yellow, red in our game, in our
play, and having a safe word.
And when people choose theirsafe words, sometimes it's just
(51:45):
really random.
I like to do things that you canuse in daily life.
So that might be basil orparsley.
And what we then do is we carryit into every day.
So we're with we're in thesupermarket, or it doesn't even
need to be the supermarket.
(52:05):
We can be with friends and we'llsay, hmm, darling, I really
fancy some basil today.
And suddenly we've moved thewhole conversation out of the
bedroom, and we again feel moreenticed to talk about it out in
the open.
I don't know how I got therejust now, but Gillian Anderson.
SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
It evolved into food.
It started with how you could bemy Gillian Anderson.
That's what that's how itstarted.
I like the idea of creatingwords around intimacy that you
can then throw out in a sexyway.
And when you're around otherpeople too.
SPEAKER_04 (52:39):
So I might call you Scully, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (52:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (52:42):
That might be that might be the daily, daily
routine.
Well you can combine all ofthese elements because I can
then send you a voice messagelater on.
I can say, I'm gonna be sendingyou a voice message later on,
Scully.
We'll we'll talk.
And you can combine all theseelements and it builds up that
anticipation at the end of theday.
SPEAKER_00 (53:02):
Right.
And that is how negotiationbecomes hot.
It becomes the foreplay forfuture sex, right?
So let's put this in a littlepackage.
I would like you to put this ina little package for my
listeners who have been likelistening and getting ideas and
seeing our little role play, butnow they're like, okay, well,
(53:24):
but where do I start when I gohome tonight or this afternoon
or whatever?
Give them a little package ofthe things to consider and how
to set themselves up for successin their conversation.
SPEAKER_04 (53:39):
First of all, know that there's no right way to do
it.
There's just your way.
And your desires are valid andyour needs are great the way
they are.
Whatever it is that's bubblingup inside you, be sure that
you've done your research, doneyour homework.
(53:59):
You're not blurting out with onesentence and you don't know what
to say anymore.
I like to say, have the five W'sat hand, which is who, what,
where, when, why.
And you can write it down if youlike.
I'm a big fan of just jottingdown a couple of notes before
you go into a conversation likethat.
Your motivation.
I love to connect beforehand.
(54:21):
So you can write something downlike, I really value our
connection.
I feel so much trust toward youand with you.
I feel safe with you.
And only then do we enter theconversation.
When you enter the conversation,be open, make sure time and
(54:42):
place, like we said before, areappropriate.
And find a way that's not toomuch.
Don't load too much on yourpartner at once.
Give a little glimpse into yourworld, what you've been
thinking.
Try and make it picturesque.
I always say take your partnerby the hand and lead them
through what's been goingthrough your brain.
(55:04):
Because you're more likely touse descriptive words, you're
more likely to paint them apicture that feels like you
because it is you.
And then be patient.
Be patient.
Give your partner space.
A lot of things might come up.
It might be shame, it might becultural conditioning, it might
(55:24):
be resistance, there might bequite a lot of negative
emotions.
If they're positive emotions,then this, you know, quick tip
guide stops right here.
But if there are negativeemotions, try to self-regulate,
still set a time when you'd liketo reconvene and speak about it.
Because I can tell you, if youdon't, it will keep bubbling
(55:46):
inside you until it bursts, andthen you will start feeling
resent.
And no relationship has ever wonwith a huge amount of resent.
So hold your space, but givethem time.
And if you then find your waytogether, and this is the
beautiful part where itcontinues, start writing a
script.
Start asking questions.
(56:08):
Start you can even do it fullyclothed, playing out what you'd
like to do.
When we're clothed, we're lessvulnerable.
So just start playing it out.
You can be in the kitchen duringbroad daylight, what you'd like
to do, and use language.
And if you're struggling to findwords, like we said before, you
know, you can find it in diversemedia, or try and just say out
(56:32):
loud your senses.
I feel hesitation.
I sense resistance in my body,or, and this is where it gets
nice and playful, I can smellyour aftershave.
That makes me feel secure again.
I can feel your body on mine,makes me feel safe again.
(56:56):
So that you're always stayingwith you in any kind of
situation, even if you're justrole-playing it out loud.
And last but not least, ifyou've managed to do all of
these things, don't forgetthat's not how it's then gonna
go every single time.
So talk about it.
Talk about what you liked, whatyou perhaps didn't like.
Have a brainstorm.
(57:17):
What could you imagine doing thenext time?
And it evolves, it changes, andbe aware of that and invite that
kind of playfulness into yourrelationship, and you can only
win from there.
SPEAKER_00 (57:30):
All right, guys, there you got it.
You've got you are set up forsuccess.
We have talked you through thedifferent parts.
We have role-played, I thoughtvery successfully and
realistically.
And now you've got it all in alittle go bag.
So go go forth and get yourkinks and fantasies fulfilled.
(57:54):
That's what I'm wishing for you.
And what I would like now is foryou to take a moment to tell my
listeners where they can findyou also, where they can read
your erotica.
I'm I'm going to go read someerotica.
I'm very curious now.
But where they can find all ofthe things you do and get in
touch with you.
SPEAKER_04 (58:15):
So my webpage is pleasepinchmehard.com.
Consensually always, first andforemost.
And there I have a wholepotpourri of blog posts, but you
can also already read some of myshort stories for free.
There are lots of articles allabout pleasure and kinks and
(58:35):
also more holistic things aboutmental health and things that
feed into our sexuality andrelationships.
You can buy my book.
It's called Give It to Me,short, naughty, short, naughty
stories.
And you can buy that on Amazon.
And you can also listen to itread by me on all podcast
(58:58):
platforms.
So if you prefer me in yourears, then I can centrally say
yes.
And then there's also my secondpractical book, which is your
complete sexuality workbook thathas, oh my goodness, over 100
exercises.
It's very project manager, andit's everything from our mind,
(59:20):
our body, our sexual voicerelationships.
It's got lots of inspirationabout kinks.
It's also got how to talk aboutkinks, and it's for solo and
partnered use.
That's available in German andEnglish.
And on top of that, obviously,there's my Instagram where I
share lots of random, filthystuff, which is also please
pinch me hard.
(59:40):
And there's my podcast, which isdeep and dirty.
That's bilingual.
And it's a whole mix, all sortsof experts, Shibari, Cervix,
Femdom.
I've had porn performers.
It's a bit of everything.
And I absolutely love it.
And of course, on Joy Club.
So for anybody who does want todo a workshop with me, I have
(01:00:04):
one coming up in November.
So check out Joy Club.
I always find it's also a reallygood place to learn language,
exactly what we've been speakingabout.
Because there you have so manypeople who are already in the
scene who you can talk to.
And yeah, my workshops there arealso in English.
So you can catch me there andalso ask questions.
(01:00:25):
I think that's it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:27):
There you go, guys.
You're not going to get boredanytime soon.
There's plenty of Lisa to goaround.
How exciting.
So make sure to go and check herout.
Do some reading.
It's going to be good for you.
Do some listening.
It's going to be better for you.
And thank you so much forjoining me for this conversation
and for being willing torole-play with me a little bit.
(01:00:49):
I think that this is going to bevery useful to all of my
listeners who have reached outoften with this specific
question and problem.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (01:00:59):
Thank you so much.
And just don't forget, if itsounds silly, that's fine.
Laugh about it.
I do it on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:08):
Me too.
SPEAKER_04 (01:01:09):
Thank you, Annette.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:10):
Thank you.
And to my listeners, until nexttime.
I'll see you in the locker room.
Cheers.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:15):
Cheers.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.