Is Sex Addiction Even Real? What the Science Actually Says

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if

(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annettetopic is the truth about sex
addiction and hypersexuality.
Today we're shaking things upin the best way because this

(01:03):
episode is a collaboration.
I'm joining forces with Dr SueMilstein and her co-host,
charlie from Unzipping Taboosfor a raw, unfiltered
conversation about one of themost misunderstood and misused
terms in the sexuality world sexaddiction.
You can listen to thisconversation right here on Talk

(01:26):
Sex with Annette, or over onUnzipping Taboos.
Either way, buckle up.
We're diving into the bigquestions what actually counts
as sex addiction and who gets todecide?
Is hypersexuality just a labelslapped on people who want more
sex than society is comfortablewith?
Why is shame baked into thediagnosis and how does it hurt

(01:48):
more than help?
And finally, how do we supportpeople who are struggling with
compulsive sexual behaviorwithout pathologizing desire?
This one's packed with nuanceand plenty of real talk.
Whether you're skeptical,curious or personally impacted,
you're going to walk away with adeeper understanding of what's
really going on behind the label.

(02:11):
Let's end up the taboo and tellthe truth about sex desire and
the stories we tell about both.
But before we dive in, I wantto remind you I'm over on
OnlyFans and that is where I'msharing my sex and intimacy
how-tos, demonstrations andaudio guided self-pleasure
meditations.
You can also find me onSubstack doing a lot of the same
, and you can find me on bothwith my handle at

(02:34):
TalkSexWithAnette.
You can also scroll down to thedescription of this episode,
and you're going to find all thelinks that you need there,
including the link to myco-host's podcast.
Now, again, before we dive in,sue and Charlie, can you tell my

(02:54):
listeners just a little bitmore about you?

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Sure, so I am Dr Sue Milstein.
I am the co-host of UnzippingTaboos, cans and Conversations
About Sex, a podcast thatAnnette has been our guest on
before.
In addition to that, I amHeyDrSue on social media, so you
can find me on Substack, medium, youtube, instagram all the
places folks submit anonymoussex questions to me and I answer

(03:20):
them once a week.
But to give you a little bitmore about my background, so I
have a PhD in human sexualityeducation, I'm a certified
sexologist.
I've been doing research andwriting and teaching in this
area for a while.
I've also worked inreproductive health clinics and
done education in the community,and so Charlie is my co-host

(03:41):
and I will let you introduce him.

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Charlie is my co-host and I will let you introduce
him.
I am indeed, hi everyone.
I am Charlie.
I am the co-host of UnzippingTaboos, as Dr Sue said, and I am
someone who is generally, hasalways been generally curious
about the human condition,challenging societal norms,
especially as a woman in society, challenging taboos, talking
unashamedly about things thatI've been told I should feel

(04:08):
ashamed of or embarrassed totalk about openly, and then just
generally curious about andlike to talk about human
psychology as an amateur.
So that's me in a tiny littlenutshell.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, welcome both of you.
I'm excited about thisconversation and, listeners,
you're going to want to stay tothe end, because I think that
the word sex addiction getsthrown around a lot and I know
oftentimes when you hear it mostit can be when infidelities
take place in relationships,when we have partners who maybe
watch porn or want sex more thanwe do.

(04:47):
So it's really important thatwe get dialed into what the
truth is about sex addiction,and then difference between
different desire levels and whatthat means and how we navigate
it, especially in relationship.
And so by the end of thispodcast, you're going to have
more information and you'regoing to have some tools to

(05:07):
navigate desired differences asyou move forward in your
relationships.
And if you're someone who wantsto bang a lot, maybe we'll ease
some of your anxiety aroundwhether or not you have a sex
addiction or not.
So let's get ready to dive in.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Cheers, cheers.
All right, let's kick this off.
Sex addiction.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Sex addiction.
Let's talk about sex addiction.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Tricky way to modify that song.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
I kind of want to start with asking Sue in
particular, because you're the,you're the one with come on,
you're the doctor in the roomright Like is sex addiction an
actual diagnosis?
No, it's next right.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
It's made up kind of kind of it is and it's so funny
because my students that's whatI tell them I'm like there's no
such thing.
There is no diagnosablecondition known as sex addiction
.
And they stare at me and I'mlike I don't know how to tell
you that something doesn't exist.
Like when we talk aboutdiagnoses, most of the times in
the US, we go to the DSM, theDiagnostic and Statistical

(06:19):
Manual, and that's where we haveall the codes and that's where
we say this is what it is andhere's a diagnostic criteria.
There are no diagnosticcriteria for sex addiction.
It does not exist in the DSM.
Not that things that weassociate with it may not be
things that are diagnosable, andnot that it's not a problem for

(06:40):
some people.
But the answer to the questionis it an actual diagnosable
condition?
The answer is right now, in2025, it is not.
I think that's important.
There's your definitive answer.
That's the answer and that's theend of the podcast no.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
But I want to point out that the DSM is also an
involving manual.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, because up until 1973, being gay was in
there as being a mental healthcondition, a diagnosable
condition?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yes, absolutely so.
What are your thoughts on thepotential evolution of that?
Is there any kind of I don'tknow feeling or direction of the
wind that gives you animpression that it may become
one?
Or is that not even worthcontemplating?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
right now.
I mean I don't want to, I don'twant to upset anyone, but when
they write that thing they donot consult me.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
I mean they're missing a huge opportunity right
.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
I do know that it was proposed for inclusion in the
last one and and I would like tothink I don't know actually how
it's done, but I would like tothink I don't know actually how
it's done, but I would like tothink that professionals take a
look at these things and makedecisions, usually by committee.
It was actually proposed forinclusion and they chose not to
because of the lack ofdiagnostic criteria.
I think that, and even actuallyhypersexuality, which I know

(08:00):
we're going to because sometimesthey use those terms
interchangeably.
Annette, do you want to jump in?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I want.
I want you to explain thedifference to me between
hypersexuality and sex addictionand to be like completely
transparent with everyone.
I've definitely been called asex addict in my life and I've
definitely been accused of beinghypersexual.
I like sex.

(08:24):
I'm a 50-year-old woman and Iget horny, Like literally my
pussy talks to me and says youknow, take care of me.
Multiple times throughout theday.
I like sex.
I like all kinds of sex andI'll have it.
I have it often with myself,Like I like to masturbate.
Sometimes I have days where Ican masturbate a couple times a

(08:45):
day and then, if my partner ishere which I do not currently
live with a partner I will havesex in the evening, and I think
that throughout my life, peoplehave like classified that as oh,
you know, you have a sexaddiction, or like something was
wrong with me for liking sex.

(09:07):
So much so, and I've beencalled both hypersexual and a
sex addict.
So go ahead and let me knowwhich I am.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
So my one question for you do you feel like there's
something wrong with you?
Do you feel like your urges areuncontrollable?
Do you feel like it runs yourlife?
Wow.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
No, In a bad way.
I mean now it does it kind ofmakes me money, but am I upset
about it?
No, I mean, I guess that's thething is throughout my life like
the only did it cause problems?
Yes, but that was because peoplewere shaming me and because not
because it kept me from doinganything or because it felt bad

(09:47):
in my body, but because ofexternal factors that were
playing.
You know, even when I'd be in arelationship with somebody and
I just want to have sex withthem.
I had one boyfriend fresh outof college.
He should have been hot to goand he just didn't have much of
a sex drive and he would make mefeel like I was slutty because

(10:08):
I wanted to have sex with him alot Does it interrupt my day
sometimes, like if I have a taskI have to get done.
Sometimes I'm suddenly hornyand I'm like maybe I should go
masturbate instead.
But if I go masturbate then Icome back and I nail the
assignment.
So I would say maybe it'sactually helping me.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, and so that's that's.
The big thing is that whenwe're looking at some of the and
, interestingly, hypersexualityis is one that you can't always
find clear criteria on dependson where you look, and in
prepping for this I was I wantedto make sure like everything
was legit on what I I you know.
It's been a few years since Iwas in school and I was amazed
at the number of legitimatesites that would say

(10:46):
hypersexuality, sometimes calledsex addiction.
And I'm like you are alegitimate site referring to
something that does not actuallyexist.
So the thing withhypersexuality is that it's
you've got these urges and thesebehaviors and you feel like
you're out of control with them,which it doesn't sound like for
you, or there's regret, or youfeel them, which it doesn't
sound like for you, or there isregret, or you feel guilty,

(11:07):
which it doesn't sound likethere is for you.
If anything, if I were todiagnose anyone, it may have
been the rest of the society forcalling you a slut, but also
for that partner you weretalking about, that sounds more
like desire, discrepancy morethan anything else, so like

(11:30):
nothing.
And again, I can't.
I have a PhD.
I can't actually diagnose,though.
I diagnose people in my brainall the time.
Nothing you've described wouldever lead me to think it's
hypersexuality, because there'sno feeling of loss of control,
there's no guilt about the rolethis is playing.
If anything, you're super proudof it, which is, I think,
something most people shouldactually like, try to do.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
I guess.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
my question is, though if guilt is like part of
diagnosing it, that's fucked up,because the only reason why
someone's going to feel guiltyis if, like someone's shaming
them of it, unless it's like, oh, I feel guilty because I didn't
get my work done today becauseI was masturbating in the office
bathroom or you know whatever,seeking out sex instead um I

(12:14):
missed the deadline because Iwas I was masturbating too much,
or I missed the deadlinebecause I was trying so busily
to hook up, or I was supposed tobe at this family function and
I I didn't make it because I hadto go out and hook up with
somebody.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
And maybe that's a good decision, though Maybe
that's maybe missing the familyfunction to fuck.

Speaker 3 (12:31):
What if it?

Speaker 2 (12:32):
compromises your job.
Yeah, it's that kind of thing.
It's that's the kind of guilt.
I think that the guilt we shoveonto people, especially women,
for having a healthy sex drive,that's, that's society's problem
and that's what we're allworking to undo in our own ways.
Yeah, um, so I think it's aboutthe guilt in terms of the
negative ramifications for yourlife, rather than the negative

(12:54):
ramifications life is throwingat you.
And it's interesting because Ialways think about how we use it
differently for men versuswomen, because when I've heard
it used for men usuallycelebrities, usually, who've
been caught cheating multipletimes it's always like, oh, they
were a sex addict, they had nocontrol over what they were

(13:15):
doing.
And then when we talked aboutwomen, it's like, oh, those
women are just uncontrollableand they just have so many
sexual urges.
And there's definitely a tonedifference when we talk about
this thing with men versus women.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Yeah, that's something that popped out to me,
annette, when you were talkingand giving your story is that
you enjoy your desire and yourdrive and sex and pleasure.
But it was the externalfeedback based off of what they
grew up in and their judgments,and not necessarily anything

(13:52):
about you doing something wrong,right and and that's exactly
what popped in my mind was thedifference of using the either
one of these terms to classifysomeone's behavior, to put them
in a little bucket so that youcan judge them, so that you can
say, oh, don't engage with thisperson because they and

(14:16):
especially when it comes towomen, who are not ashamed that
they enjoy sex and seek sex andare fine having a lot of it.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
When you were talking about the difference between
how men and women are talkedabout in reference to sex
addiction and well, mostly sexaddiction, but hypersexuality,
it's like and always with womenit's like refers to us as using
sex and being so sexual in orderto get something too right, so

(14:49):
for guys it's like oh, they'readdicts, they can't control
their urges and they're brokenthat they the broken up about
the fact that when they slippedand put their dick into five
different women, it destroyedtheir families.
And if it's a woman who does thesame, it's like she's a whore
and she's using sex to get thisguy because she wants his money
or his fame.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Or it's like very it's a very different framework
yeah, and if we're talking aboutdiagnostic criteria, your
gender should not matter.
It should be yeah, so there doyou check the boxes of the thing
, and that's, and that's again,how we use it.

(15:30):
I do want to point out thatwhile I'm sitting here saying
there's no such thing as sexaddiction, I could get online in
about two seconds and find like20 different places that will
take all of my money to treat meof the sex addiction, and so
that's usually the follow-upquestion I get.
I'm like, oh well, if there'sno such thing, then why are
there all these treatmentcenters?

(15:50):
I'm like, yep, it's because ofmoney They've created a need and
if I especially if I'm a manand whoops I stuck my dick in so
many people and got busted andmy partner's threatening to
leave me and break up the family, okay, I'll go to treatment.
I'm showing that I'm doing thework and I'm putting my health

(16:15):
and my family in front ofeverything.
And handing over all this moneycouldn't diagnose you in the
first place.
We also can't prove that wecured you.
But that's not what thosecenters are.
Most of them, I think there arecenters that do help people deal
with the compulsivity piece ofit, because for some folks who
could fit that definition ofhypersexuality, there's
definitely a compulsivity pieceFor some people.

(16:40):
I've had a couple of folks in mylife that I feel like I could
throw that label on, but oneperson standing out very
specifically.
He was using sex with folks as away of not confronting his own
past sexual trauma.
So he had been raped andmolested as a small child and
because he didn't understandthat it was bad and it was not

(17:02):
handled well as a child, he grewup as an adult believing that
unless someone was physicallyloving him, that he was
unlovable, and so for him itwasn't about sex addiction and
it wasn't about hypersexuality,it was about unresolved sexual
trauma, and so I think there areplaces that can help folks deal

(17:22):
with the real underlying rootof what it is, unless you're
just an asshole who likes tocheat on your wife or your
partner.
But I think there are timeswhere there is a legitimate
thing going on underneath, but Ithink that gets lost when we
just go yeah, sex, you know, sexaddiction treatment center,
come to our place, stay here forX number of weeks, pay us lots
of money, and I think that makesit harder to have a

(17:45):
conversation about thatunderneath stuff.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
And I think that's an important piece to consider.
When you do Google sexaddiction, the first page of
results is treatment centers andtreatment groups.
But the important thing toremember with that, though, is
that, if they first, if theytake insurance, if they are

(18:08):
going to submit a claim to getmoney for you, they're not
sending a diagnosis in of sexaddiction because they can't,
because they would not get moneythey have.
The diagnosis is something likeyou were just talking about
some other unresolveddiagnosable condition, so that's
something to keep in mind outthere, listeners, if you Google

(18:30):
sex addiction, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Sex addiction and hypersexuality are often brought
up in reference to a couple ofthings.
So, again, something that canoccur after someone experiences
a sexual assault.
So I'm going to refer you backto my listeners, especially to
listen to the podcast I did withthese two.

(18:53):
I will place a link for itbelow as well, because it was a
podcast about sex after sexualassault in which I shared my
personal experience, and one ofthe things that we did talk
about there very specificallywas hypersexuality and how it's
sometimes connected with post-SAsurvivors.

(19:17):
So how much validity is to that, is there, to that?
And also, I want tosimultaneously wrap up in that
adhd so I've also because I alsohave adhd.
I'm a double hitter over here.
Um, that there's, uh, thehypersexuality is often thrown

(19:40):
in with sort of the symptoms ofADHD for some people.
What do you think?
What do you think about allthat?

Speaker 2 (19:51):
So I think that there is a part of hyper compulsivity
, hypersexuality Sorry, I'vedecided to create my own thing
there.
There is a part abouthypersexuality which does talk
about, which does talk aboutusing that term for folks who
are using sex to avoid somethingelse.
So, whether it's depression orconfronting other aspects of

(20:17):
their life that they're notready to, or some other mental
health, and in the case ofsexual assault, I think you can
use it in that capacity, withthe idea as if I'm trying to
avoid dealing with the trauma,avoid dealing with depression,
avoid dealing with all thatpiece of it and not really
moving forward and hiding behindsexual activity.
I think there is a part of thatdiagnosis for hypersexuality

(20:40):
that works, and this is one ofthe reasons I'm not really a fan
of sex addiction as a term, incase you haven't realized it,
not a fan of the term.
What I know from people who areaddicts and when I'm thinking
about addicts, I'm thinkingabout alcoholics and drug
addicts what I know about myfriends who are addicts is that

(21:02):
their big thing is that they arealways addicts.
Whether they are drinking,whether they are using, whether
it's been decades since they'vetouched a substance, their
feeling is that they are alwaysan addict, they are always in
recovery, that they will nevermove past that and that is why I
don't like another reasonoutside there's no diagnostic
criteria.
I want to see how many times Ican say that episode because I
think it's really important.
But what I like about the titleof hypersexuality is that you

(21:26):
can move past it and I think,especially for folks who are
coming out of dealing withsexual assault or depression or
whatever other mental healthcondition is they're using to
kind of hide behind the sexualactivity label, it's like, oh,
that's it, you're an addictforever.
But if we give you a, this ishyper sexuality, let's talk

(21:46):
about how to move you forward.
Then it's a part of yourjourney.
It is not you forever and Ithink that's a really important
distinction, especially forfolks who've gone through
assault or rape.
It gives you a light that youyou're going to move past it at
some point and we don't see thatwith the word addiction.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
So, okay, but how does that fall in line with
no-transcript, especially withyourself?
I'm a real big promoter ofself-sex sex with self, making
yourself your own best lover andmasturbating a lot and
frequently and whenever you can.

(22:27):
But I also believe that sexwith yourself and with someone
else can be super healing andspecifically for things like
anxiety and depression and in mycase I would even say trauma.
I think that the orgasm andthat the release and sort of the

(22:48):
layers that having sex, orespecially with yourself, and
becoming orgasmic andintegrating back into your body
after being separated from itthrough something like a sexual
assault, using sex to do thatand pleasure to do that, is a
really powerful healing tool,right?
So you see, what I'm getting tohere is if it is a problem to

(23:14):
cover up the stuff from sexualassault, and how does that
somehow sit with my assertion,my belief that it can be healing
for things like that.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I think it's how you're using it.
So if you're like I'm justgonna have lots of sex and feel
an instant connection and it'sgonna give me what I need to
give me and then I'm gonna moveon, like and just that's it,
that's the end of my dealingwith it, I think that's where it
becomes more problematic thanI'm going to use sex to
reconnect with my body, whetherit's sex with myself or sex with
someone else.

(23:49):
I'm going to engage in sex playas a way of connecting with my
body and I'm going to feel thefeelings and I'm going to deal
with the feelings and I'm goingto process the feelings and I'm
probably going to cry a bitduring the feelings and all the
feelings.
But if it's part of the processof healing and an
acknowledgement of what happenedand an acknowledgement of how I
move forward, to me that's verydifferent from I'm just going

(24:11):
to be hooking up randomly toavoid feeling anything, does
that make sense?
Yeah, so I think it's how it'sbeing used, because I think
you're absolutely right.
I think I think learning how tobe a sexual person after trauma
, I think, whether that traumais rape or sexual assault or
being raised in a culture thattells you you shouldn't enjoy

(24:31):
sex especially if you're a womanwho's ever been told that this
feeling is bad to learn how tohave pleasure from it and
acknowledge this process for you.
I think it's the process thatmakes it different from just
hiding behind it and what aboutadhd?

(24:53):
so I have to admit, I'm not aswell versed in adhd.
Um, I'm not, as, yeah, I thinkI need to sit there for a second
I am not as well versed in adhdand I especially.
I love the fact that you're Iwas gonna sound like a weird
sentence I love the fact you'rediagnosed, because we so often
don't diagnose women when theyshould have had that diagnosis.
Um, but I'm not sure how thatrelates to.

(25:15):
I think you might be a betterexpert on how it might play into
hypersexuality.
Well, I think.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
I use hypersexuality, but I think what they say is
that women, specifically women,not men, of course with ADHD,
because part of ADHD in womenand I'm specifically talking
about women here is impulsivebehaviors.
I certainly struggle withimpulse control, which is fine,

(25:45):
it's fine folks.
But and then what I think theydo is apply that to sex.
So someone with ADHD may bemore likely to engage in risky
sexual behavior or impulsive.
You know, you're out, you'rehanging out, you meet a guy or a
girl or a couple and it'sgetting sexy and instead of
being like, ah, maybe I shouldsleep on this and then revisit

(26:08):
whether or not I want to havesex with him, you're like, fuck
it, let's go do it.
You know, maybe that's morelikely with someone with ADHD.
Supposedly I'm not blaminganything on my ADHD.
I think I make these choicesout of my own preference for

(26:30):
life and how I'm going to liveit.
But that is sort of theconnection, and I have
interviewed somebody on thistopic.
You know how someone with ADHDmight have sex differently than
someone who doesn't.
And some of it rings true withme just being like, like, I'm
kind of ready to do this stuff.

(26:51):
I'm ready to like jump in andtry new things.
I'm not, as you know,restrained, and I don't know if
that is more about just.
You know, I'm like we're alllike-minded women.
We're more likely to be open toideas of what sex can be like
and having fun with it, whereassomeone who's not where we're at

(27:11):
is more likely to you know.
Hit pause before they whip outall the toys and tie each other
to the walls, consent toengaging with them.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I mean I feel like what you were describing
before about the just kind ofjumping into doing the things.
I feel like that's more ADHDfrom the diagnosis than
hypersexuality.
But for the folks who arelistening, I think if you have a
poor mental health practitioneror one who subscribes to the
idea that women should not behaving open, happy sex lives,
they are way more likely to slapthat label of hypersexuality on

(27:43):
you, and I don't think it wouldbe appropriate in that
situation.
So I think that's part of it.
So many times when people arelike, whatever the topic is, I
know I'm different and I don'tknow why, and you get a label,
it's like I have a label andthat validates that what you're
going through is real, and theproblem is when you get put with

(28:04):
the wrong label.
So for someone who's doingimpulsive behavior, I feel like
that would be more an impulsivebehavior thing than
hypersexuality.
But I think that we're morelikely to label especially women
with it because it's a way ofcontrolling them to label
especially women with it,because it's a way of
controlling them.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
I think that's also a very important piece of this
conversation is who is tellingyou that it's too much and who
is telling you who isstigmatizing it in your circle?
Is it a healthcare professional?
Is it a mental healthprofessional?
Is it your family?
Is it what you grew up with?
Did you grow up in a religioushousehold that for lack of a

(28:50):
better term demonized sex andpleasure and desire?
And so how is that kind ofinforming, a readiness to accept
a label of addiction orhypersexuality?
Because, as you say, dr Sue,you get that nice little term,
nice air quote, you get thatterm, that succinct term that
gives you an answer, but then italso limits you and kind of

(29:15):
boxes you in in a way.
And then for many people, ifit's, if that's what they're
pointing to, there areunresolved, untreated things in
the background that you justsort of accept this as a
characteristic of yourself andyou don't have an opportunity to
go any further or dig anydeeper to really understand.

(29:39):
Is it, is it hyper sexuality,or is it that I?
I'm impulsive and I have anopenness and and I enjoy it?
I those aren't inherently badthings right, and is it, is it?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
because this is a very specific situation, with
someone I worked with after acommunity event.
She and her husband had beengoing to couples counseling and
to what she was describing to mewas desire discrepancy.
He was just kind of like meh,whatever, had no interest in
trying new things, like you know, same old, same old crap, like
same time every week.

(30:17):
It felt like from what she wasdescribing, and so he would go
to therapy and be like there'ssomething wrong with my wife.
She wants sex too much.
There's a problem with her.
We need to diagnose this, andthe therapist did use a term
like hypersexuality, and when Iwas talking to her about oh like
, is the therapist trained insex?
The answer was no, and you canbecome a mental health
professional with zero trainingin sex.

(30:38):
So you have this place wherethe fact that the mental health
professional was taking cuesfrom the husband was a little
discouraging for me.
But you know, there she and herhusband are actively trying to
work on an issue.
She gets slapped with this labelby someone who may or may not
know what they're talking about,and now it's become her problem
instead of.
He was just really boring inbed and didn't want to do

(30:59):
anything else.
And that's like you were sayinglike that's a label and okay, I
can do something with it.
Instead of he was just reallyboring in bed and didn't want to
do anything else.
And that's like you were sayinglike that's a label and okay, I
can do something with it, butwhat about all the crap that
comes with that label?

Speaker 3 (31:11):
And that it was an inappropriate label.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
So do you find both of you.
What comes to mind with me withthese terms is that it becomes
a way to gatekeep sex andpleasure For women, yes, for men
no Well for men.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
I feel like it gives them an excuse.
Yep, and then it's a way to,especially if it's men who have
cheated with women.
It still is a way to make thewoman responsible for his
infidelity when she didn't makeany commitments to fidelity with
that man's partner.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
So that's a whole other episode.
I jumped right in there.
Annette, did you want to giveyour two cents on that?
I jumped right over you.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I'm going to take a moment to flip the script
gender-wise here, becauseanother thing I've seen a lot of
, so a lot, of women, and Ithink we all can agree here that
there are many, many, many morewomen and I'm being very
heteronormative in thisconversation but who don't want

(32:13):
to have sex, don't enjoy sex,have had really bad sex, are in
marriages and they're trying toget out of sex with their spouse
, right, because of the waywe've been taught to have sex
and of course, sex.
You know.
Look at the orgasm gap.
You know the, the.

(32:33):
The number of women havingorgasms during sex, heterosexual
sex with men, is abysmal.
It's terrible, terrible,terrible.
I can't even remember thenumbers, but like 90 something
percent of men are coming andwhereas like just a massively
lower percent of women aren't.
So a lot of women think theydon't want sex.

(32:56):
I argue that they do.
Once they start experiencingpleasure, then they're like me,
then they can't get enough of it, right.
But what happens oftentimes whenthe term sex addiction comes up
this is when I've heard it themost is when a woman who is
married and avoiding, you know,doling out the once a week or

(33:17):
once every other week or once amonth sex.
Catches her husband on thecomputer and finds all the porn
he's looking at, or that he'shiring webcam girls, or that
he's going to the strip club andsuddenly he's a sex addict,
they go straight to likesomething's wrong with him.
He's addicted to porn, he's asex addict.
And they just dig down if they,if they find like little porn

(33:40):
magazines or whatever.
And I would argue that it'seasier for them to accuse the
husband of being a sex addictthan to look at the relationship
and the the intimacy issue.
They're having their pleasurelist life, that they're maybe
feeling filling up withsomething else, like wine nights

(34:01):
with girlfriends or you knowwhatever else the relationship
may be.
Maybe it provides financialstability.
So it's like, okay, I'll doleout the bad sex once a week, but
I get to have the house and thecar and the vacations, right?
I'm just going to argue thatthat is oftentimes wives in

(34:22):
heteronormative relationships orin, even if not married,
partnered.
It's easier to throw down theaccusation of sex addiction,
porn addiction, whatever in menthan to go.
I hate having sex with myhusband because it sucks and I
don't enjoy it and and but yetit makes me feel like less of a
woman if I see him looking atporn that has women who are

(34:45):
enjoying sex in it.
So this is the only way I canhandle it and I don't feel like.
Catching someone watching pornor masturbating a lot or going
to the strip club equals sexaddiction.
It equals someone trying tofill their own need some other
way.
I know I'm sorry, ladies, I ama woman's woman, but I just need

(35:09):
you to like.
I want you to have more orgasmsand be more pleasure filled, so
that you don't have to dealwith that, am I?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
in the wrong or right here, I agree with you.
I would actually argue that'sanother desire discrepancy issue
, because he wants a lot moresex than she does.
But desire discrepancy makes itsound like there's something
wrong with me, so it's wayeasier to say my husband's a sex
addict.
But I absolutely do think thereare women who use that term to
describe their husband orpartner who is having what we

(35:40):
might consider a normal sexdrive and just not having their
needs met.
And I, yeah, go for it.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
But an important part of this and I just want to know
what you guys think about thatis I don't.
I think that a lot of thedesire discrepancy between men
and women is there because womenaren't experiencing pleasure
from sex.
Every time a man sticks hisdick in something, he's very

(36:10):
likely to have an orgasm.
Women oftentimes experiencepain because the guy who's
sticking their dick in hervagina she's not wet, he's
shoving his dry dick in thereand from day one it hurts, right
, and there's no orgasm.
There's no pleasure.
Why would you develop desire?

(36:31):
You're being conditioned to sexequals pain or discomfort,
whereas men are beingconditioned to sex equals
pleasure.
Of course they're going to wantmore of that.
So I have this issue withdesire discrepancy.
So, may I real quick yeah I justwant to.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
I want to, yes, and that because I think it's not
that the experience of sex couldbe something that informs that
lack of desire, but it is alsohow we, as women in this society
, are conditioned to think aboutour sex and sexuality, and it's
something that we're meant tokeep, and keep a hold of and

(37:12):
gatekeep ourselves, and then menget to take it in this
heteronormative sense, and so alot of that, I think, is are
that those are the roots of theissue.
One of the roots of the issueleading to you know this well,
my husband's a sex addict, or my, my partner's a sex addict,

(37:35):
because I like, because I foundall these things, but the thing
with the desire discrepancythere's no ownership, there's no
one person that that it.
It owns that it is.
It makes it conversational inin many ways, and I think it
goes back to what we've beentalking about, this, this

(37:56):
episode is that that is the.
It's not the outcome, but it isa symptom of all of these other
things, and so, and those arethe symptoms that we can
actually point to and and helppeople navigate through to get
to their desired desire stateand pleasure state and and have

(38:17):
an understanding of what that is.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, I was actually also going to go down the mental
load idea.
Like you want me to take careof the house, you want me to do
the cooking, you want me to dothe cleaning.
If there are kids involved, youwant me to take care of the
kids.
And oh, now you want sex andI'm fucking exhausted and I
haven't gotten a break and I'mgoing to need a little bit more
than you going, I'm hard.
You know, we know that I don'twant to say all women, because I

(38:42):
definitely know women whoaren't like this.
Women tend to need more of aramp up time, like unless
they're already ready to go.
Usually it's more of a likethey need to be able to relax
and feel safe and feel like theycan have this moment and enjoy
it.
And when you're just like let'sdo this in the five minutes we
have before we go to bed, orlike you were saying, and when
you're just like let's do thisin the five minutes we have

(39:03):
before we go to bed, or like youwere saying, annette, every
other time we've done this, ithurts and or I'm not and or I'm
not having an orgasm, so like,fine, let's just do it and get
it over with.
So I think in either of thosecases using that term, I think
it I think the desirediscrepancy sometimes it should
be neutral, but I think a lot oftimes we do kind of put more of
it on the person who wants sex.
More or less I think it goestowards one way or the other,

(39:24):
depending on who's in theconversation.
But I do think it's easier totalk about desire discrepancy
and be like hey, there's aproblem here, like and it may
take us a while to figure outthat it's because you don't
bother paying attention to meuntil you want sex.
That's still, in a lot of ways,easier to have conversations,
work and work towards dealingwith and going well, he's an

(39:46):
addict, I'm an addict, you knowit's that addict just kind of
gives up that like well, there'snothing we can do.
And so the desire discrepancyat least opens that door to have
more conversations about likehey, you want sex later.
Why not send me a text duringthe day?
Send me some dirty text duringthe day, call me and leave me a
dirty message, let me know thatI'm.

(40:07):
Give me something that lets meknow I exist in your world until
you just want the bad sex.
And so I think that there'smore room to work.
I think the problem is againwith the label.
We stick the label on peopleand go desire discrepancy and
then we don't go.
Okay, how do we move past it?

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Right.
Or we don't even get to thatlabel and we're stuck at.
He's a sex addict.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Right, labeled as a sex addict and then, depending
on the resources available toyou or your understanding, or
even buy into the sex addictlabel, because it's not a
diagnosis, so it's a label theresources around you, are they

(40:52):
going to be quality?
Are they going to actuallyidentify that?
Well, no, this isn't addiction.
This is not diagnosableaddiction.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
This is Well, no, this isn't addiction.
This is not diagnosableaddiction.
This is compulsive behaviorbased off of unresolved XYZ.
So they've kind of tapered offtheir sex life with you, so
you're turning anywhere else toget it.

(41:20):
Yeah, and that's.
The problem is that while wesay people are in treatment,
unless they're actually gettinginto that stuff, it's never
going to be addressed.
And I think that once we put alabel on it, depending on the
label, sometimes that label isfree reign.
Now I'm an addict, I have nocontrol, I'm not responsible for
my behavior, whereas I'm notbeing a great partner.
That's something I can probablywork on, and so part of it is

(41:43):
also the ownership behind theconcept that we're laying on
them.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
I just like cheating.
I like the taboo and the thrillof cheating, and whether or not
I'm going to get caught, that'snot to me that's not addiction.
That's almost a kink in a way.
You know.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
That's where swinging comes in.
But I do have a question.
Yeah, cause you can do it, butit's not cheating.
Yes, so there are fixes forthat, folks, all right.
So here's a good question atthis point in the episode If sex
addiction isn't a realdiagnosis, then then how the

(42:24):
fuck are they treating it?
What are the treatments?
And are those treatments goingto do more harm than good?
Because, like in this case of,let's say, the husband gets
caught with, like, all the pornsites he's been checking out, I
would be in so much trouble ifanybody got on my computer,
jesus Christ, computer, jesusChrist.

(42:47):
And so, or he's had an affairbecause you know his wife, just
you know, no one wants to havesex with someone who doesn't
want to have sex with them.
But if you can't have sex withanybody else because you've
promised your life to someonewho's refusing to have sex with
you, like well, it's kind oflike there you are right.

(43:07):
So now he's cheated, but hedoesn't want his family to fall
apart.
So he's like, yes, I'm a sexaddict, right.
And then he goes and they treathim for it.
Which means what?
Now he learns how to desire sexand intimacy less.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Or he's learned that I get to pay this money and go
off into a nice, you know,rehabilitation center that's
somewhere lovely and have mymeals cooked for me and be able
to do the social stuff, but thenhe comes back to real life
eventually.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
He comes back to real life eventually, yeah.
So he's got to either learn howto hide it better or leave the
relationship, or it just it'sgoing to be, it's going to
happen again, or he learns howto, you know, push down his
desire, which also is a terriblething.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Right, that's not.
We don't want people pushingdown desire.
We want people enjoying what'shappening.
But it's yeah, from my what amI very limited.
What was?

Speaker 1 (44:11):
that I'm sorry.
What is the treatment?
Do you know what the treatmentis?

Speaker 2 (44:15):
no.
So for my very limited I wasgonna say for my very limited
experience with this, I hadsomeone actually do a project on
this and like call a center andbe like, oh, my husband has,
you know, totally fake, myhusband has sex addiction.
Like what?
Totally fake, my husband hassex addiction.
Like what's going to happen?
It's like, oh, we're going todo like behavioral and cognitive
behavioral therapy and lots ofgroup sessions and talking and

(44:36):
they'll be in a place where theycan meditate and refine their
center and I'm like they'regoing on vacation.
They're going on vacation witha little group chat.
Now it could be that when theygot there I don't want to say
that every treatment center isbad If the label sex addiction
is what gets you into a centerand there are issues with, like,
overcoming trauma, or there areissues of not knowing how to

(44:59):
deal with the desire,discrepancy, or like I'm a
shitty lover, if there are waysof addressing that.
So let's go with someone who'sbeen through trauma, you know,
and they do do the counselingand they do do the therapy and
they do look at how people mayhave been using sex to avoid
dealing and coping and they workthrough that.
That's great.
But unless you lay out a reallygood treatment plan for a thing

(45:22):
that does not exist, I don'treally think a lot's happening
at most of these treatmentcenters.
I'm sure we're going to get awhole lot of hate mail now from
so many of these treatmentcenters yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Well, what is the treatment for people with
hypersexuality or compulsive?

Speaker 2 (45:36):
sexuality.
So what that's going to be isreally having people look at
what is it if you're having alot of sex to avoid something.
What is it that you're tryingto avoid?
What is it that you're tryingto avoid?
And then, once we can name it,how can we work through it?
If it's you don't feelconnected to humans unless
you're physically having sexwith them, where did that come

(45:57):
from?
How do we work through that?
How do we move you on to aplace where sex isn't being used
to cover a negative emotion?
And I think there's somelegitimate work that can be done
there.
If it's I'm having all this sexbecause I don't want to deal
with the guilt that I experiencewhen I'm having, you know, I
have all these thoughts aboutsex and then I feel guilty about
it.
Well, let's talk about why youfeel guilty about it.
Why are these urges making youfeel guilty?

(46:18):
Because hypersexuality isn'tjust about sexual behavior.
It's also about fantasies andurges that feel uncontrollable.
So why does it feeluncontrollable?
Why do you feel guilt?
How do you know?
Is this because of the way youwere raised?
Is this because of something apartner said to you that has
absolutely changed the way youinternalize yourself and how you

(46:40):
view sex.
So I think for some of that,depending on what it is, I think
there is some work that can bedone.
But unless you lay out thatplan for someone and you can't
know it until you talk to them,you know, unless you have this
conversation be like, okay, youknow, I've talked to you two or
three times and what I'm hearingis that you're having what

(47:00):
feels like uncontrollable urges,or these fantasies just get in
the way of you functioning.
So let's talk about how to getyou to a place where you can
function, still have fantasy,but function.
It's going to be very differentfrom someone who's using this
to not cope with their anxietyor not cope with the lingering
effects of whatever trauma theywent through.
So I think there are ways oftreating someone for

(47:21):
hypersexuality, but it's muchmore individualized.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
It's almost like what I'm hearing is that the
hypersexuality is the symptom ofsomething.
So for treatment centers tolabel a sex addiction treatment
plan, well, you, to your point,you can't really have a plan if
the addiction a treatment planif the addiction doesn't exist.
But if I have a friend that I'mconcerned about because I'm

(47:48):
just noticing this risky sexplay behavior, then if I'm
noticing these behaviors, thesecompulsive or impulsive
behaviors that are endangeringyour life, that's a different
conversation than saying I thinkyou're a sex addict.
Than saying I think you're asex addict, it's.
I think it opens.
Ideally it would open the doorto.

(48:11):
I'm here by your side.
Let you know I could help you.
I'm here to help you find amental health professional.
Let's figure out what's goingon.
So you at late, if you'refeeling out of control and this
is one thing you can controllet's figure out what's
contributing to that, whathaven't you been able, what can
control.
Let's figure out what.
What's contributing to that,what haven't you been able, what
haven't you been given space toheal from right.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
And the only reason I would like the term sex
addiction if I had to pick areason why I like the term is
it's something people have heardwhere if you go, you know
something like you've been doinga lot of hooking up, like no
judgment, you want to hook up,hook up but you're not going to
work or you're feeling so muchguilt afterwards that you're
having problems functioning.
I don't.

(48:52):
Most people aren't going to beable to be like I think it's
hypersexuality or they're goingto say, hey, I think you're
coping, it's going to be sexaddiction and if that's the term
they use to find a way to gethelp that's the only reason, I'd
be OK with it, and I I'mdefinitely going to get hate
mail after this.
I'm not a fan of the idea of a12-step program for sex

(49:15):
addiction Because, again, it'slike this idea that you can use
a 12-step program to help youwith this thing.
That does not really exist andthere are so many other things
underneath it.
So I think that the term can behelpful if it gives me a
launching point to learn more,but I think we have to be really
careful about like treatmentcenters and 12 step programs

(49:35):
when it comes to this.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
It's almost like it keeps it at the surface level,
right For some of thosetreatment centers and those 12
step programs.
Is that it?

Speaker 2 (49:45):
it is a band-aid, it it doesn't get to the root of
what is leading to your desireto engage in that, in that
behavior yeah, and I think Idon't want to get too much down
the 12-step route, because I Iknow some people whose lives
were changed by alcoholicsanonymous absolutely changed and

(50:07):
they've been sober for decades.
I also know people who reallyit didn't work because it wasn't
getting at the underlyingissues usually depression and
anxiety, but not always and so Ithink it's just.
I think it's hard to just sayhere's the thing that's going to
work for everyone, but I thinkwhen we go treatment center for
sex addiction, I think we'reprobably losing more people than
we're helping.

(50:27):
And if you've got numbers andyou're from a treatment center,
send me your data.
I'd be happy to take a look atthat.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yeah, yeah, I worry about anything, especially when
it comes to women and sexualityand women enjoying and embracing
their pleasure and sex,anything that might steer women
away from that.
You know not that.
I don't know, and I absolutelyhave known women who had some

(50:58):
compulsivity around theirchoices with sex.
But I don't think that theanswer to that is to turn off
the desire and turn off the wantfor sex.
I really think that the fix tothat is to reconnect with your
body and be in your body and bepresent with each decision

(51:23):
you're making around sex.
I think one of the reasonsespecially why women who have
been through sexual trauma keepseeking another partner and
another partner and more sex andmore sex is because then they
get into bed and they go out oftheir body and they're not
feeling it and so they get donewith it and they don't feel
satisfied and it just feels likeanother bad interaction.

(51:43):
And it's when you trulyreconnect with yourself and you
get to be present and and yourbody, the sensation wakes up and
and you feel it, um, that it'sempowering and you can start to
heal that.
But if someone's telling youyou're something's wrong with
you because you want a lot ofsex, then that's's, if anything,

(52:07):
that's going to throw you evenfurther, right away outside of
your body and and and make ityou so much further away from
any kind of healing yeah, and wedon't want anyone to feel
ashamed of their sexual behavior.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
We don't want anyone to feel well, unless it's not
consensual which I know wealways say no judgment at the
top of the show and then we'relike judgment.
If it's not consensual which Iknow we always say no judgment
at the top of the show and thenwe're like judgment.
If it's not consensual, that'snot them.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
No, we can't judge that.
We can judge non-consentAbsolutely.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Yeah, yeah, but.
But what we're saying is thatjust and I love that I was
actually thinking the words bepresent right before you said it
the idea of being present andunderstanding and why you're
doing what you're doing and notlike you have to do a deep,
meaningful, like I'm about tohook up with this person a whole
self-psycho analysis.
Yeah, let me do some fiveminutes of reflection and figure
out what it is.
But I know one of the things Irun across with my college

(52:56):
students is that they tell methat they're kind of sick of
hooking up, which is it'sfascinating, because the hookup
culture thing didn't reallyexist, but whatever.
Um, but they, they, they don'tfeel good after because they
were doing it to feel likesomeone wanted them and so they
got that validation in themoment and that afterwards it
didn't feel good.

(53:17):
So they're swearing off sex andI'm like whoa, like those are
two so you can still enjoy sex.
But you should probably look atthat validation piece a little
bit.
But there's no reason why, likethe last thing I want these
folks doing is walking out,going.
Sex is bad, I hate sex and sexis no good for me.
Like that's the last message.
If that's what you're gettingfrom the show, start again,

(53:39):
because that is absolutely notthe message we want you getting.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Right?
No, I think sex can, can, belike just as incredible.
Like for me, for sure, it'sonce I stepped away from the
shameful aspect of it andembraced the yeah, I like to
have sex, I like to have it alot.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
I like to have it in a lot of different ways.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
I've enjoyed having it with many people, yeah, and

(54:29):
I've enjoyed having it with manypeople, different genders and
once I stopped being afraid ofthat and what it meant to the
rest of the world and stoppedlike it's a very healing thing
and it's just so hard.
It's like to teach people thatwhen they're like in a society
that really weaponizes sexualityand pleasure and sex for
anything other than procreation,like it's really Like it's
really hard.
It's really hard to teachpeople that.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Yeah, and it's go ahead, charlie.
That's the other exception Itake to this term of sex
addiction is that it itcontinues to reinforce that
shame to want to engage indesire or feel unashamed about
desire.
It's a way to try and say, well, you don't feel ashamed, are
you sure?
Because I think you're anaddict, you know, and ashamed.

(55:14):
Yeah, yeah, we really should,because I mean, you should feel
so ashamed.
Look how many programs are outthere for this.
You should, you know.
So I think that's why I takeexception to it as well, as I
just want to keep honing in onthis piece of it doesn't address
the causes.

(55:34):
It doesn't get to.
If you're someone who has beentold that you're a sex addict
and maybe you're going to, maybeyou're doing group work You're
only ever talking.
I imagine I don't haveexperience so I will throw that
out there but I imagine you'reonly ever talking about it in

(55:54):
that, about the addiction levelin a group setting, and that it
because perhaps you've been,you're doing that and you aren't
really getting to the.
I had affection withdrawn fromme at a young age and so I
equate sex with affection and soI constantly seek sex and I

(56:17):
make certain decisions to dothat and it's impacted me in a
way.
Whatever it's really just thatthat sex addiction continues to
reinforce shame around sex andit just feels like more another
avenue to continue to reinforcethe purity culture that we have
here in America.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And if we had more people whowere like trained on how to deal
with the underlying issues.
But again, we don't.
You can become a mental healthprofessional in this country
with zero training in anythingrelated to sex, and so it's much
easier to be like, well, you'vegot an addiction and I can't
really treat that, so I'm goingto send you on to an addict
specialist.
But if we had more people whoare well-versed and like, let's

(57:02):
talk about the stuff behind it.
And so I think it's.
I think absolutely it ties intothe purity culture.
I think absolutely it's tyinginto let's just throw out all
the things like it's trying intothe the double standard for men
versus women, and I I thinkit's just playing into this idea
that we have a system thatdoesn't openly talk about sex
and doesn't help you.
If you legitimately need helparound the subject, you don't

(57:25):
know how to like pleasure yourpartner.
There there are people who havevideos on only fans who can
help you learn technique.
But then you've got to be okaywith the idea that you're going
on only fans and we have a wholeculture that tells you that if
you know, you've got somethingwrong with you if you're going
on only fans, and if you're ononly fans, as a creator,
obviously there's, you know,some unresolved childhood issues

(57:47):
.
So I think it's just this wholeI mean not not to point fingers,
but I I think it, I think itjust.
It just shows like the biggerissues that exist in this
culture that aren't going awayanytime soon right.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
I think that this, also this topic, has been a
really beautiful way toillustrate how the patriarchy,
how purity culture and thepatriarchy as is the woman who
is, you know, is going to sufferas much as perhaps her partner,
who can't understand why, eventhough he's trying to meet her

(58:54):
needs, she's going out andseeking out more.
Like it hurts just everybody,everybody, and you can look at
it from whatever gender youidentify, as you can see a way
in which this is not helpinganyone get their needs met and
lead a fulfilling life.

(59:14):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
And heal, right.
Yeah, and that's really what wewant.
I mean, we want people to havethe sex lives that they want, or
the ones that they imagine theycan have and they've never
actually experienced.
It's like we want people tohave those sex lives that make
them feel whole, and I think alot of times, this conversation,
the conversation about sexaddiction, just slams down the
conversation and stops it, andthat's the problem.

(59:39):
Yeah, and the fact that there'sno diagnostic criteria, because
I don't think I've said thatfor 20 minutes.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
I was wondering.
I think that's an importantlike let's put that stamp on it,
so folks, we know it's.
This is not a legitimizeddiagnosis.
Sometimes, let's just be real,Some diagnoses, even though they
are really like calledillnesses, are bullshit anyways.

(01:00:05):
But I will not digress.
But this is a totally differentepisode, but this one really
isn't, and and it can cause harm, so much harm, so much harm
when, when sex is weaponized, itharms everybody, sometimes
mostly women, but everybody.
And I think that the label sexaddiction is a great

(01:00:29):
illustration of that.
Yep, yep, so orgies foreverybody.
There we go.
I'm just joking.
Sex is good, sex is good, okay,folks.
Well, I think if you are notyet convinced that sex addiction
isn't real, I don't know whatto tell you.

(01:00:52):
But here's what I do want tosay If you are concerned about
being a sex addict or that youare dating a sex addict, or you
know a sex addict, take time tosit with the information you
just had.
Perhaps instead you've got afriend or a loved one who's
struggling with something deeperand needs help, so you can
support them in that way.

(01:01:12):
I want to thank my guests forbeing here and, before we go, dr
Sue and Charlie, can you let mylisteners know where they can
find you?
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Do you want to take this one?
Go for it, dr Sue.
So you can find us both atUnzipping Taboos, candid
Conversations About Sex, whichis our podcast that's available
on Spotify and Apple Podcastsand probably everywhere else you
can find a podcast.
And if you just want to submita question to me, a sex question
that you want answered, you canfind me at HeyDrSue on

(01:01:47):
Instagram, medium Substack.
Just put in HeyDrSue and seewhat comes up.
I think that's all of it for us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Yeah, and we're on Instagram as well.
I'm Unzipping Taboos, charlie.
The podcast is on Instagram, soyou can engage with us there.
And Dr Sue, I think what's yourname?
Heydrsue?
There you go, there you go.
So yeah, you can engage with usthere and Dr Sue, I think
what's your name.
Hey, dr Sue, there you go,there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
So, yeah, you can engage with us there too.
Now, if you think you're a sexaddict, or that you're with one,
or you've listened to thispodcast and you've had some
feelings about it, you know howto get in touch with me.
You can go.
If you're a listener, you canhead over to my YouTube channel
where you can watch this and seeour beautiful faces, and you
can drop a comment below thevideo and that way we'll know

(01:02:38):
that you want to say somethingspecific about this episode.
You can drop a comment or aquestion.
We will try to get it answered.
You can also reach out to me atAnnette, at
TalkSexWithAnnettecom.
You can scroll down to the notesection below and hit my speak
pipe and send me a question.
Again, I will do my best to getback to you and answer that

(01:03:00):
question.
Until next time, folks, thanksfor joining us and we'll see you
in the locker room.
Cheers, cheers, cheers room,cheers.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Cheers, cheers, cheers.

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