August 27, 2025 • 41 mins
Kinky couples are some of the most communicative, consent-savvy lovers out there—but that doesn’t mean their relationships are drama-free. Sometimes the same power dynamics that light you up in the bedroom can throw things off outside of it.
In this episode, I talk with Wendi L. Dumbroff, MA, LPC, a kink-affirming couples & sex therapist, about the struggles kinky couples don’t always see coming—like mismatched appetites, shame, or when D/s roles bleed into daily life.
What you’ll hear:
- The biggest red flags of a kink-shaming therapist
- Why mismatched kinks hit harder than mismatched libidos
- How neglecting aftercare can quietly damage connection
- Simple ways to keep your play hot and your relationship healthy
If you’ve ever felt like you had to shrink your desires to keep the peace, this one’s your permission slip: protect your intimacy and find support that actually gets you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annettetopic is when kink gets
complicated.
Relationship struggles no onetalks about.
(01:01):
Let's be honest.
Kinky couples are some of themost communicative,
consent-savvy, emotionallyin-tune lovers out there, but
that doesn't mean that theirrelationships don't hit rough
spots.
In fact, sometimes the powerdynamics that light you up in
the bedroom can start to messwith the balance outside of it,
(01:21):
and when that happens you can'tjust go to any old therapist and
hope they get it.
Too often, couples exploringBDSM or alternative dynamics get
pathologized, misunderstood or,worse, told that what turns
them on is the problem.
Today's guest is here to shiftthat narrative.
Wendy Dunbroff is a licensedprofessional counselor with
(01:45):
advanced training in couples andsex therapy.
Her practice is affirming,nonjudgmental and, yes, kink
positive.
She works with individuals,couples and families who want
deeper connection and bettercommunication without having to
hide or shrink the parts ofthemselves that don't fit the
vanilla box.
And today we are diving into therelationship issues kinky
(02:07):
couples don't always see coming.
We'll talk about what makespower play hot until it's not
the surprising emotional toll ofmismatched kinks, and how shame
internal or projected canquietly erode your dynamic,
whether you're a switch, a dom,a submissive or just kink
curious.
This episode is about learninghow to protect the intimacy that
(02:30):
makes your play possible andhow to find support when things
get complicated.
But before we dive in, I wantto remind you that I am over on
OnlyFans and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos
demonstrations and audio-guidedself-pleasure meditations, all
designed to help you starthaving better intimacy.
Tonight you can find me thereor on Substack doing a whole lot
(02:51):
of the same under the handle atTalkSexWithAnEye.
You can also scroll down to thenotes below, and you're going
to find links to find mewherever you want to find me.
I'll look forward to seeing youthere.
Now, wendy, I would like togive you an opportunity to tell
my listeners a little bit moreabout you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Sure, and first, thank you so much, Annette, for
having me here on your show.
It's an honor to be here and Iloved what you said about
shifting this narrative to kinkpositive and not pathologizing
people.
So, as you said, I am a coupleand sex therapist.
I have also training inmindfulness and meditation and I
(03:32):
infuse mindfulness and thatkind of awareness into all the
work that I do with people, withcouples, with individuals, and
counseling is a second careerfor me.
But here I am and I learnedmore about sex therapy because I
loved working with couples and,of course, when you work with
couples, you work with sex.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, welcome and I'm excited to have this
conversation.
I think it's going to be veryhelpful to a large portion of my
listenership.
I know you guys are all kinky.
I know because I see whichvideos you're looking at.
So whether you're kinky oryou're kink curious and you want
to bring that into your dynamic, this conversation is going to
(04:13):
be useful for you because you'regoing to find out what to do
when you hit those relationshiproad bumps which we all do.
We all do in our relationships.
So please stay to the end,because we are going to go over
common relationship issues thatshe sees in her practice and how
to navigate them, how shesuggests navigating them.
(04:36):
So by the end of this podcast,you're going to have a little go
bag for how to help yourrelationship be healthy and stay
healthy, regardless of whatpops up as you move through your
personal life and your intimatekinky life.
So I'm ready to talk aboutrelationships and kink.
(04:57):
How about you?
I'm all ready, All right, let'stalk about kink.
Cheers, Cheers, All right.
So I just want to start with.
What challenges do kinkycouples experience when issues
pop up in their relationship andthey want to find someone to
(05:18):
help them a therapist or acounselor or a coach.
What are some common issuesthey run into and what keeps
them from finding somebody thatwill work for them?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, it's a great question because I think
sometimes people in anyalternative sex world of their
choosing can often bepathologized by mainstream
therapists who are just, youknow, to no fault of their own.
They're just not aware, theydon't have the information.
(05:49):
I was one of them once.
I had a couple back when I wasdoing my couples training before
I did my sex therapy training,that I would have worked with
completely differently had Iknown more about kink.
So kink couples run into thesame problems that vanilla
couples run into.
It's usually relationshipproblems that they come to me
(06:12):
for, but part of the reason theycome to me is so they will come
to someone who gets it, whoknows who's not going to like
shudder when they talk about thethings they like to do and what
they enjoy.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So this is an interesting perspective.
You have this perspective ofbeing a therapist pre-becoming
kink-aware and post.
Can you talk to me about theshift in your view, the shift in
your approach that has takenplace from becoming more
educated on how to work withkink couples?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think one of the most important things is just
one not pathologizing in any waywhat somebody likes,
understanding what they like,and also that they don't have to
fit themselves into any box.
I think that's one of thebiggest things that I've,
especially people withalternative sexualities who may
(07:09):
not even know what they are andthey come to me like so obsessed
, like I'm not even sure what Iam.
I like this, but I like this,but I like this.
Go play, go practice.
You're a single person, you'reout in the world.
Go figure out what you like anddon't worry about fitting
yourself into a box.
And the same with kink couples,because there's different
(07:32):
flavors of kink, right?
Some people like one thing,some people like another thing.
So there's no box that you haveto fit yourself into, as long,
of course, as everything isconsensual.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Right and you talk a little bit about some of the
common ways that therapists whoaren't kink-informed might
pathologize a person coming inwho's kinky.
Just in case there's anyonelistening right now who is kinky
and they're in therapy and thisis happening to them, so that
(08:06):
they kind of read those signs.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I think our clients read us as therapists as much as
we, you know, are reading themand they're going to see if you
have like an ick or someone isalmost shaming and saying so
tell me about this thing thatyou like, and they try and
(08:32):
pathologize it and make it a badthing.
Or let's say somebody's kink issexually pleasurable for them
and that it is also a repair of,perhaps, a childhood Not that
it always has to be, because itdoesn't.
That's another myth.
Some people are just naturallykinky and they've had kinky
(08:55):
fantasies for as long as theycan remember and it's not a
repair of abuse.
Sometimes it is a repair ofabuse.
So one thing is someone mightsay oh well, you like to be a
submissive and you like to bemolested before you go to bed or
something like that.
But you know you're justrepeating what happened to you
(09:17):
as a child and that's nothealthy.
Well, yes, it is right, Becausethis time I have the chance to
say no, you have to stop if Iwant you to stop and you're
going to stop.
And that's the person's sexualtemplate, that's what arouses
them.
And, as long as it's toconsenting adults, might have a
(09:39):
different view of that.
Someone who's into really hardkink right that involves blood
play.
Somebody might see that as ohno, no, you're self-mutilating
or you're allowing someone tomutilate you.
(10:00):
It's not okay and it's whatthey want, and it's consensual,
and it's safe and, you know,done in the right way.
That's my biggest concern.
Safety is always first, whetherit's a parent and a child
dynamic or whether it's a coupledynamic.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So you bring up this myth that some non-informed
therapists might believe, whichis that all kink stems from you
know whatever childhood trauma.
Are there any other prevalentmyths that a therapist who
hasn't gone through becomingkink-informed might be buying
(10:42):
into?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I think just that people are self-harming,
are allowing themselves to be,you know, re-abused.
I'm sure there's others outthere that I'm just not thinking
of, but I think that we have tolisten closely to what our
clients say and understand thisis what they like.
(11:04):
Oh, but you have scars on you,why?
Oh, my God, what are you doing?
You know?
No, I once had a I went to adermatologist, just for you know
, regular checkup, and I hadbeen cooking and a piece of hot
(11:25):
onion flipped out and burned meright here.
And the doctor said to mewhat's that?
And she's like, never mind, Idon't want to know.
And I thought to myself, wow.
Now I said no, I was cooking.
And a piece of onion popped outof the pan and it was almost
like she didn't believe me.
(11:46):
I don't want to know, you know.
And just doing something likethat, that I don't want to know,
can make someone feel so shamed, right?
Like, wow, they really think,whatever I did, was there
something wrong with it if theydon't want to know, right?
And so we have to be open andwe have to know our limits as
(12:08):
therapists, too, right?
Whether you're a kinkytherapist or not a kinky
therapist yourself.
You have to know your limitsand we go through trainings
called SAR, a sexual attitudereassessment, which you have to
do to become a sex therapist,and that is so you know what
your limits are.
(12:28):
So some people that come to me,you know if there's something
that gives me the ick too muchto work with them, then I need
to know that and tell them.
I need to refer you out becauseI don't want to do that.
So there's a lot of awarenessthat you have to have because I
don't want to do that.
So there's a lot of awarenessthat you have to have.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Right, so that's kind of a good thing to think about
too.
Is what are some signs forsomebody who's in therapy right
now that perhaps the therapistthey're with has got the ick and
isn't able to drive them in thedirection they need to solve
(13:14):
their relationship issues?
Common things that therapistsmight say, for example, with
that dermatologist just the?
I don't want to know.
That's clearly an issue thatwould make me feel shameful as
well, but what things like thatcould someone look for in their
(13:37):
connection with their therapist?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
no-transcript.
It's got to be someone that youcan open up to if they find
themselves holding back Like Idon't want to, I don't want to.
Maybe I shouldn't say thatthat's a sign that you're
feeling like you shouldn't feellike you have to hold back with
(14:30):
your therapist, and if you do,you can say listen, there's
something I wanted to talk about, but I don't know for some
reason.
I'm wondering if you're goingto judge this.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Are there certain trainings that you could ask a
therapist if they've had anadvance to be us to understand?
Have you ever been to a SAR?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
How many SARs have you been to?
(15:11):
What kind of training have youdone in sex therapy?
Do you work with couples likeme, like us, we're kinky.
Do you work with kinky couples?
Do you know what kink is?
What kind of?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
kinks do you know about?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What kind of kinks there's so many.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So now I want to shift to, assomeone who is a kink-informed
and kink-friendly therapist,what are some common issues that
couples come to you with?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So kinky couples that come to me, I think, as we've
talked about, are seekingsomeone who's not going to judge
, who understands, who they canspeak freely with about what
they enjoy and what they like,and they usually come with the
same issues that vanilla couplescome with.
You know, we get in thesearguments.
(16:04):
Here's what happened Her motheris, you know, too involved.
We're not communicating welloutside of sex, right, because
kinky couples communicate verywell around sex, but things like
that normal, regular, everydaythings that couples deal with
(16:27):
regular, everyday things thatcouples deal with Right.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
So folks, kinky couples have everyday arguments
too, about money, aboutcommunication, all of those
things, yeah, all of thosethings, yep.
And what are some common issuesthat come up in a kinky
relationship?
Let's say where it's yourstandard problem, but what is
(16:54):
the way in which oftentimes, akink life can tie into those
everyday problems?
I do know for some people theirkink life actually becomes sort
of a full-time lifestyle.
For instance, in a dom-subrelationship.
Some people like to keep it inthe bedroom, but some people
also like to continue thatdynamic outside of the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
That can be a problem when one wants to do that and
the other doesn't.
The other is happy to havetheir kinky play and or vanilla
play.
Sometimes the other kind ofwants a larger, broader
lifestyle and that, depending onhow they can negotiate that,
(17:45):
may or may not.
It may or may not be a longerlasting relationship Right With
couples that one is kinky butdidn't reveal that before the
marriage in this case marriedcouple, I'm talking about a
married couple and then it'ssort of kind of like new
information somewhere along theline.
(18:06):
And then so it's kind of likenew information somewhere along
the line and the other person isnot kinky and not really like.
Even if they're willing to be alittle kinky, they are more.
One couple I worked with, thepartner who came out as kinky
was really a switch but wantedboth, kind of wanted to
(18:27):
experience both sides.
The other would only do Dom andso they could never get that
other side and even when theother partner did Dom they just
weren't as into it as theywished they were.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, I guess I hadn't thought about that.
What about when there is avanilla couple and one starts to
become interested in kink, sothey come to you just as a
couple and maybe discover downthe road that, oh, one of the
issues that's really popping upin our sexual relationship is
(19:06):
that I'm curious about kink.
I really feel like I need toexplore that.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, that can absolutely happen.
And again, it depends on thewillingness of the other partner
, the interest of the otherpartner, whether, if one partner
is not into it, are they opento letting their partner explore
it on their own and opening therelationship if it's not an
open relationship, and thenwhenever somebody opens a
(19:36):
relationship, there's also whatare the boundaries of the open
relationship.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So that's a whole other ball of wax to deal with
in helping people open theirrelationships because I think
(20:07):
what happens oftentimes too inrelationships, when one person
becomes curious about kink, isthat their partner starts
pathologizing them, orpathologizing them and thinking
oh, you want to do this onething.
That must mean you're X, Y andZ.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
You're a pervert, you're violent.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah.
And so having a sex therapistwho is informed and can say look
, no, your partner isn'tsuddenly becoming this awful
human being, this is normal, andbeing able to inform a partner
who's vanilla, I think thatwould be very important.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That is absolutely important.
And sometimes if they say well,why didn't they know this?
How could they not tell me?
Well, they may not haveexperienced it yet.
They may have just come acrossa video somewhere or heard
something, someone talking aboutsomething, or saw a movie and
it piqued their curiosity andthey just didn't know.
And there's nothing wrong withit, it is normal.
(21:15):
There is a whole world of thisand a whole community of folks
who love this.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, Well, and I think that many people don't
realize how fluid your sexualinterests can be and even your
sexuality.
And if you don't know aboutsomething, then you don't know
how your body and your mind andyour preferences are going to
react to it.
And exposure even, like yousaid in a movie, in an article
(21:46):
that pops up, because there'smore and more out there
explaining different kinks, whatthey are, you know who likes
them, how you can approach them,and that knowledge in and of
itself allows people to discoverparts of themselves they may
not have had access to before.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, I just saw a movie.
Actually, one of my clientsasked me to watch it because one
of my kinky clients asked me towatch it because she had seen
it.
Baby Girl.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Baby Girl I just watched it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, you did.
I just watched it a few weeksago and what I loved about it
was how her kink partner thatshe was with Nicole Kidman
normalized it for her becauseshe was feeling like there was
something wrong with her, andthen how eventually her husband
was able to join her in that andnot look at her like she was
(22:39):
crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, that was the ending was very interesting to
me because it was actually thekink partner.
Folks, if you haven't seen BabyGirl, I recommend it.
Maybe it's not a cinematicmasterpiece, but I thought it
was a really I think.
I saw it last week.
I'm still sort of processing itand what all took place in it
because, spoiler alert, ifyou're going to watch it right
now, I'm going to give you asecond to like fast forward.
So do that right now.
All right, I liked how at theend, actually the kink partner
helped the husband, helped thehusband, and so this kind of
(23:31):
goes back to you talking abouthelping partners if they have
mismatched interest in kink.
Talk about can you explore thisoutside of our relationship if
one person is a hard?
No, because sometimes even youcan explore kink without there
being real.
I want to say sexualinteraction, meaning fluid
exchange or penetrative sex witha kink partner.
(23:55):
There's a lot of kink you canexplore without it breaking
certain agreements you can makewithin your relationship about
kissing or PNV sex or whateverthat might be.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But it takes having someone that understands and is
informed, and so if you have atherapist, that's just like
something's wrong with you.
So it sounds to me like some ofthe primary issues that you see
from kink couples in youroffice are just everyday
relationship problems.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, for the most part they really are.
They really are just, you know,really any people in any
alternative sexual lifestyle.
I got a call recently fromsomeone who was poly but just
having desire discrepancy issueswith their primary partner, and
it happens.
(24:55):
The most common reason anycouple comes to therapy is
because of desire discrepancy.
One person wants more sex thanthe other, or one person is like
kind of dropped out of the sexgame and they don't want it and
they, you know they haven'treally wanted it at all and
whether they're kinky or poly oryou think, well, poly people
(25:20):
are, are having desire, butthere's, they're poly, they're
what they want so much.
No, look, there's still issuesaround desire.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So what are your?
The most common kink-relatedreasons that couples come to you
, the problems that they facespecifically having.
We've named a couple, but Ijust kind of want to list them
off so that these couples whoare out there might go.
Okay, these are common.
I can go find someone who willhelp guide us.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So a lot of the normal issues.
One somebody broke a boundaryright they were going to do
these were the boundaries of therelationship and they, they
broke a boundary of therelationship, whether that was
being with someone else orcommunicating with someone else,
even online.
(26:18):
That wasn't supposed to happen.
Or if it was supposed to happen, you were supposed to tell me
if you were going to be withanother dom online, then you
should have told me that.
You didn't tell me that.
So trust and you know trustissues, communication issues
outside of the sexual realm,just this you know I work very
(26:41):
much with people.
I, in their relationship, Ilook at their cycle, what
happens between them, how oneperson triggers another, what
the other person does, how thattriggers the other person and
the cycle they get into.
Every couple, whether kinky orvanilla, they come in and
they've got some cycle happening.
(27:03):
So I really work with that,with their son.
Of course there is desirediscrepancy, there is kink style
discrepancy, as we talked aboutone person into kink, the other
person not into kink.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah Right.
So for my listeners right now,if they are out there and they
are recognizing that they havesome issues and they want to
find someone, what are somethings they should look for?
They're looking for a therapist.
Can you give them kind of abulleted list?
As they go out into the worldor go out into the online world
(27:44):
and start looking to interviewtherapists or pick a therapist,
what are some things they canlook for to make sure that
they're picking the right person?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So if they're looking for couples work, I think it's
really important to find someonewho's trained in couples
therapy, and I think it's alsoimportant to find someone who's
trained in sex therapy and,interestingly, they have never
taught couple and sex therapytogether.
Why, I don't know, and I thinkit's starting to blend a little.
(28:12):
The place where I did my coupleand family therapy training at
the Ackerman Institute in NewYork now does have a sex therapy
training program, but I thinkit's separate so I don't think
it gets incorporated.
I think you have to do likeboth of them.
So look for someone who isknowledgeable in sex therapy.
(28:33):
I think most sex therapists areknowledgeable in kink, like all
our conferences and everything.
Everything is very affirming,and so I think a good couples
therapist and someone who hassex therapy training is probably
the most important thing.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And you give a couple questions that are absolute
musts for a kinky couple to askwhen they're interviewing a
therapist to ask that therapistto make sure that that therapist
is going to be a good fit forthem.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, to let them know.
My partner and I are kinky.
Are you familiar with kink?
Are you kink aware?
Have you worked with otherkinky couples?
How do you feel about that?
I think you just have to bevery forthright and honest about
that.
And if they're like, well, whatdo you mean by kinky?
(29:28):
Say well, we, you know, I don'tthink you know, so then you
know.
Then they might want to move on.
And I've had people call me andsay you know, we're going to a
few people, we're calling a fewpeople, we're interviewing
around, we'll get back to you.
It's okay to do that.
(29:49):
It's okay to go to one couplestherapist and you know, go to
another couples therapist andsee which one you like better.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Do you recommend them asking about their specific
dynamic?
Are you familiar like theirspecific dynamic?
Are you familiar, like if it'sDOM-SUB or if it's into a
certain kind of play, primal or,you know, animalistic, whatever
it might be?
Is it important to ask yourtherapist in advance?
(30:20):
Are you familiar with thisspecific dynamic?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
with this specific dynamic.
I think it could be a veryuseful question.
Yeah, because there are peoplethat specialize and there's some
things like probably that Iwould say you know what, if
that's your kink, you might bebetter served with this person
who's an expert in that.
Or let me find you someonebecause I have access to the
community of therapists.
(30:50):
Let me go on my listserv andfind you someone who really
specializes in and understandsthat more than I do.
Yeah, I think that is a fairand useful question.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
So for my listeners right now who are going to start
looking for a therapist or whoare experiencing problems.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
What are maybe your three top piece of advices?
Little takeaways right now.
That is, listen closely to eachother, listen to hear, not to
respond Right, listen to hear,so, and even if you just reflect
back what the other person issaying before you give your take
on it or before you getdefenses.
(31:44):
So you are saying that when Ido X, y and Z, you feel like
really upset about that.
Yes, I do right.
Listening to hear and thenunderstanding.
Well, okay, it's not my, it wasnever my intention to make you
(32:04):
feel that way and I hear thatyou felt that way.
Validating a person.
Validating does not mean thatyou agree, like I always use the
example of if our kid doesn'twant to do their homework and we
say to them yeah, I get it, itsucks doing homework, you know,
it's like you'd rather beplaying your game or talking to
(32:25):
your friends or doing somethingelse, and you still have to do
your homework.
Right, you're still going totell them that, but you're going
to see them where they are.
So just validating just means Isee you where you are and
that's just a really good andpowerful tool so that you all
(32:46):
feel heard.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I love that.
Two more little pieces ofadvice takeaways for my
listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
To hear and validate each other.
Pause.
Pause before you react andnotice.
Well, every time I get upset, Istart attacking, and that's
never useful.
What always happens is theother person shuts down.
(33:16):
Well, if it didn't work timeone or two, or 734, it's not
going to work this time.
It's not going to work thistime.
So let me just pause and trysomething different.
Pause, open space before you gointo that usual, habitual
(33:38):
pattern.
As the Buddhist nun, pemaChodron says and you know, with
my studies in mindfulness, I'velearned this beautiful word,
equanimity which is best definedby its opposite, which is
reactivity.
So can I be with thisuncomfortable feeling?
Can I honor that it's here andnot be reactive to it?
And that's this pausing,creating a space, taking a
(34:04):
breath, taking some time away ifyou need it in order not to do
the thing that you usually do.
Yeah, that's that.
Causing is a good one, and ifyou find yourself really in that
space where you can't seem toget out of whatever keeps
(34:25):
happening between, seek help.
It is a strength to put up yourhand and say I can't do this
myself.
I need to bring in some helpand find someone who is
well-trained in doing that, thatyou feel comfortable in
relating to that.
(34:46):
You feel comfortable relatingto who is kink aware if you're
kinky.
Who is kink aware if you'rekinky, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I love that.
I love that.
So for my listeners, I thinkyou have a really good overview
of if you're kinky and you havenormal everyday relationship
issues still, find a therapistwho's kink aware and positive
Still, because you never knowhow that part of your life is
feeding into the out of thebedroom part of your life.
(35:15):
And if you do discover that,you want someone who gets it and
doesn't pathologize you wenever want that to happen, right
.
And also, wendy has done awonderful job of illustrating
some of the common kinky issuesthat can cause problems in a
relationship too.
And then what to look for whenyou're looking for that
(35:39):
therapist.
And what to look for if youcurrently have a couple's
therapist you're working withwho might be making you feel
more shameful or pathologizingyou because of your preference,
you might need to find a newtherapist right?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, because they just don't know how to do it
right.
They just haven't learned.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Thank you so much.
Can you tell my listeners whereto find you if they want to
find out more about you orfollow you on socials?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
a Y, but I spell it with an.
I wendydumbrofftherapycom.
I think I have a Twitter pageor X or whatever it is.
Now we don't know?
Yeah, we don't know.
(36:36):
I have a Facebook page, buthonestly I'm not personally, I
just don't post a lot on that,but everything I've done is on
my website, so it's all there.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Fantastic, so you can go to her website and find out
more about her and connect withher if you are looking for
someone who will understand you.
Thank you so much.
Listeners, If you havequestions on this topic things
that I haven't covered pleasefeel free to either head over to
the YouTube channel atTalkSexForTheette and drop your
question in the comment sectionbelow, and we will do our best
(37:11):
to get back to you and get thatanswered.
You can always email me toAnnette at TalkSexWithAnettecom
and tell me your thoughts, yourquestions about common issues
that kinky couples have and howto get the help you need,
because everybody deserves to beseen, heard, understood and
(37:33):
helped in their own relationshipand sexual journey.
Thank you so much for joiningme, Wendy.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Thank you, Annette, so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And to my listeners until next time I'll see you in
the locker room.
Cheers.
Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annettetopic is when kink gets
complicated.
Relationship struggles no onetalks about.
(01:01):
Let's be honest.
Kinky couples are some of themost communicative,
consent-savvy, emotionallyin-tune lovers out there, but
that doesn't mean that theirrelationships don't hit rough
spots.
In fact, sometimes the powerdynamics that light you up in
the bedroom can start to messwith the balance outside of it,
(01:21):
and when that happens you can'tjust go to any old therapist and
hope they get it.
Too often, couples exploringBDSM or alternative dynamics get
pathologized, misunderstood or,worse, told that what turns
them on is the problem.
Today's guest is here to shiftthat narrative.
Wendy Dunbroff is a licensedprofessional counselor with
(01:45):
advanced training in couples andsex therapy.
Her practice is affirming,nonjudgmental and, yes, kink
positive.
She works with individuals,couples and families who want
deeper connection and bettercommunication without having to
hide or shrink the parts ofthemselves that don't fit the
vanilla box.
And today we are diving into therelationship issues kinky
(02:07):
couples don't always see coming.
We'll talk about what makespower play hot until it's not
the surprising emotional toll ofmismatched kinks, and how shame
internal or projected canquietly erode your dynamic,
whether you're a switch, a dom,a submissive or just kink
curious.
This episode is about learninghow to protect the intimacy that
(02:30):
makes your play possible andhow to find support when things
get complicated.
But before we dive in, I wantto remind you that I am over on
OnlyFans and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos
demonstrations and audio-guidedself-pleasure meditations, all
designed to help you starthaving better intimacy.
Tonight you can find me thereor on Substack doing a whole lot
(02:51):
of the same under the handle atTalkSexWithAnEye.
You can also scroll down to thenotes below, and you're going
to find links to find mewherever you want to find me.
I'll look forward to seeing youthere.
Now, wendy, I would like togive you an opportunity to tell
my listeners a little bit moreabout you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Sure, and first, thank you so much, Annette, for
having me here on your show.
It's an honor to be here and Iloved what you said about
shifting this narrative to kinkpositive and not pathologizing
people.
So, as you said, I am a coupleand sex therapist.
I have also training inmindfulness and meditation and I
(03:32):
infuse mindfulness and thatkind of awareness into all the
work that I do with people, withcouples, with individuals, and
counseling is a second careerfor me.
But here I am and I learnedmore about sex therapy because I
loved working with couples and,of course, when you work with
couples, you work with sex.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, welcome and I'm excited to have this
conversation.
I think it's going to be veryhelpful to a large portion of my
listenership.
I know you guys are all kinky.
I know because I see whichvideos you're looking at.
So whether you're kinky oryou're kink curious and you want
to bring that into your dynamic, this conversation is going to
(04:13):
be useful for you because you'regoing to find out what to do
when you hit those relationshiproad bumps which we all do.
We all do in our relationships.
So please stay to the end,because we are going to go over
common relationship issues thatshe sees in her practice and how
to navigate them, how shesuggests navigating them.
(04:36):
So by the end of this podcast,you're going to have a little go
bag for how to help yourrelationship be healthy and stay
healthy, regardless of whatpops up as you move through your
personal life and your intimatekinky life.
So I'm ready to talk aboutrelationships and kink.
(04:57):
How about you?
I'm all ready, All right, let'stalk about kink.
Cheers, Cheers, All right.
So I just want to start with.
What challenges do kinkycouples experience when issues
pop up in their relationship andthey want to find someone to
(05:18):
help them a therapist or acounselor or a coach.
What are some common issuesthey run into and what keeps
them from finding somebody thatwill work for them?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, it's a great question because I think
sometimes people in anyalternative sex world of their
choosing can often bepathologized by mainstream
therapists who are just, youknow, to no fault of their own.
They're just not aware, theydon't have the information.
(05:49):
I was one of them once.
I had a couple back when I wasdoing my couples training before
I did my sex therapy training,that I would have worked with
completely differently had Iknown more about kink.
So kink couples run into thesame problems that vanilla
couples run into.
It's usually relationshipproblems that they come to me
(06:12):
for, but part of the reason theycome to me is so they will come
to someone who gets it, whoknows who's not going to like
shudder when they talk about thethings they like to do and what
they enjoy.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So this is an interesting perspective.
You have this perspective ofbeing a therapist pre-becoming
kink-aware and post.
Can you talk to me about theshift in your view, the shift in
your approach that has takenplace from becoming more
educated on how to work withkink couples?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
I think one of the most important things is just
one not pathologizing in any waywhat somebody likes,
understanding what they like,and also that they don't have to
fit themselves into any box.
I think that's one of thebiggest things that I've,
especially people withalternative sexualities who may
(07:09):
not even know what they are andthey come to me like so obsessed
, like I'm not even sure what Iam.
I like this, but I like this,but I like this.
Go play, go practice.
You're a single person, you'reout in the world.
Go figure out what you like anddon't worry about fitting
yourself into a box.
And the same with kink couples,because there's different
(07:32):
flavors of kink, right?
Some people like one thing,some people like another thing.
So there's no box that you haveto fit yourself into, as long,
of course, as everything isconsensual.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Right and you talk a little bit about some of the
common ways that therapists whoaren't kink-informed might
pathologize a person coming inwho's kinky.
Just in case there's anyonelistening right now who is kinky
and they're in therapy and thisis happening to them, so that
(08:06):
they kind of read those signs.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I think our clients read us as therapists as much as
we, you know, are reading themand they're going to see if you
have like an ick or someone isalmost shaming and saying so
tell me about this thing thatyou like, and they try and
(08:32):
pathologize it and make it a badthing.
Or let's say somebody's kink issexually pleasurable for them
and that it is also a repair of,perhaps, a childhood Not that
it always has to be, because itdoesn't.
That's another myth.
Some people are just naturallykinky and they've had kinky
(08:55):
fantasies for as long as theycan remember and it's not a
repair of abuse.
Sometimes it is a repair ofabuse.
So one thing is someone mightsay oh well, you like to be a
submissive and you like to bemolested before you go to bed or
something like that.
But you know you're justrepeating what happened to you
(09:17):
as a child and that's nothealthy.
Well, yes, it is right, Becausethis time I have the chance to
say no, you have to stop if Iwant you to stop and you're
going to stop.
And that's the person's sexualtemplate, that's what arouses
them.
And, as long as it's toconsenting adults, might have a
(09:39):
different view of that.
Someone who's into really hardkink right that involves blood
play.
Somebody might see that as ohno, no, you're self-mutilating
or you're allowing someone tomutilate you.
(10:00):
It's not okay and it's whatthey want, and it's consensual,
and it's safe and, you know,done in the right way.
That's my biggest concern.
Safety is always first, whetherit's a parent and a child
dynamic or whether it's a coupledynamic.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So you bring up this myth that some non-informed
therapists might believe, whichis that all kink stems from you
know whatever childhood trauma.
Are there any other prevalentmyths that a therapist who
hasn't gone through becomingkink-informed might be buying
(10:42):
into?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Well, I think just that people are self-harming,
are allowing themselves to be,you know, re-abused.
I'm sure there's others outthere that I'm just not thinking
of, but I think that we have tolisten closely to what our
clients say and understand thisis what they like.
(11:04):
Oh, but you have scars on you,why?
Oh, my God, what are you doing?
You know?
No, I once had a I went to adermatologist, just for you know
, regular checkup, and I hadbeen cooking and a piece of hot
(11:25):
onion flipped out and burned meright here.
And the doctor said to mewhat's that?
And she's like, never mind, Idon't want to know.
And I thought to myself, wow.
Now I said no, I was cooking.
And a piece of onion popped outof the pan and it was almost
like she didn't believe me.
(11:46):
I don't want to know, you know.
And just doing something likethat, that I don't want to know,
can make someone feel so shamed, right?
Like, wow, they really think,whatever I did, was there
something wrong with it if theydon't want to know, right?
And so we have to be open andwe have to know our limits as
(12:08):
therapists, too, right?
Whether you're a kinkytherapist or not a kinky
therapist yourself.
You have to know your limitsand we go through trainings
called SAR, a sexual attitudereassessment, which you have to
do to become a sex therapist,and that is so you know what
your limits are.
(12:28):
So some people that come to me,you know if there's something
that gives me the ick too muchto work with them, then I need
to know that and tell them.
I need to refer you out becauseI don't want to do that.
So there's a lot of awarenessthat you have to have because I
don't want to do that.
So there's a lot of awarenessthat you have to have.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Right, so that's kind of a good thing to think about
too.
Is what are some signs forsomebody who's in therapy right
now that perhaps the therapistthey're with has got the ick and
isn't able to drive them in thedirection they need to solve
(13:14):
their relationship issues?
Common things that therapistsmight say, for example, with
that dermatologist just the?
I don't want to know.
That's clearly an issue thatwould make me feel shameful as
well, but what things like thatcould someone look for in their
(13:37):
connection with their therapist?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
no-transcript.
It's got to be someone that youcan open up to if they find
themselves holding back Like Idon't want to, I don't want to.
Maybe I shouldn't say thatthat's a sign that you're
feeling like you shouldn't feellike you have to hold back with
(14:30):
your therapist, and if you do,you can say listen, there's
something I wanted to talk about, but I don't know for some
reason.
I'm wondering if you're goingto judge this.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Are there certain trainings that you could ask a
therapist if they've had anadvance to be us to understand?
Have you ever been to a SAR?
Speaker 1 (14:51):
How many SARs have you been to?
(15:11):
What kind of training have youdone in sex therapy?
Do you work with couples likeme, like us, we're kinky.
Do you work with kinky couples?
Do you know what kink is?
What kind of?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
kinks do you know about?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
What kind of kinks there's so many.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So now I want to shift to, assomeone who is a kink-informed
and kink-friendly therapist,what are some common issues that
couples come to you with?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
So kinky couples that come to me, I think, as we've
talked about, are seekingsomeone who's not going to judge
, who understands, who they canspeak freely with about what
they enjoy and what they like,and they usually come with the
same issues that vanilla couplescome with.
You know, we get in thesearguments.
(16:04):
Here's what happened Her motheris, you know, too involved.
We're not communicating welloutside of sex, right, because
kinky couples communicate verywell around sex, but things like
that normal, regular, everydaythings that couples deal with
(16:27):
regular, everyday things thatcouples deal with Right.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
So folks, kinky couples have everyday arguments
too, about money, aboutcommunication, all of those
things, yeah, all of thosethings, yep.
And what are some common issuesthat come up in a kinky
relationship?
Let's say where it's yourstandard problem, but what is
(16:54):
the way in which oftentimes, akink life can tie into those
everyday problems?
I do know for some people theirkink life actually becomes sort
of a full-time lifestyle.
For instance, in a dom-subrelationship.
Some people like to keep it inthe bedroom, but some people
also like to continue thatdynamic outside of the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
That can be a problem when one wants to do that and
the other doesn't.
The other is happy to havetheir kinky play and or vanilla
play.
Sometimes the other kind ofwants a larger, broader
lifestyle and that, depending onhow they can negotiate that,
(17:45):
may or may not.
It may or may not be a longerlasting relationship Right With
couples that one is kinky butdidn't reveal that before the
marriage in this case marriedcouple, I'm talking about a
married couple and then it'ssort of kind of like new
information somewhere along theline.
(18:06):
And then so it's kind of likenew information somewhere along
the line and the other person isnot kinky and not really like.
Even if they're willing to be alittle kinky, they are more.
One couple I worked with, thepartner who came out as kinky
was really a switch but wantedboth, kind of wanted to
(18:27):
experience both sides.
The other would only do Dom andso they could never get that
other side and even when theother partner did Dom they just
weren't as into it as theywished they were.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, I guess I hadn't thought about that.
What about when there is avanilla couple and one starts to
become interested in kink, sothey come to you just as a
couple and maybe discover downthe road that, oh, one of the
issues that's really popping upin our sexual relationship is
(19:06):
that I'm curious about kink.
I really feel like I need toexplore that.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, that can absolutely happen.
And again, it depends on thewillingness of the other partner
, the interest of the otherpartner, whether, if one partner
is not into it, are they opento letting their partner explore
it on their own and opening therelationship if it's not an
open relationship, and thenwhenever somebody opens a
(19:36):
relationship, there's also whatare the boundaries of the open
relationship.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So that's a whole other ball of wax to deal with
in helping people open theirrelationships because I think
(20:07):
what happens oftentimes too inrelationships, when one person
becomes curious about kink, isthat their partner starts
pathologizing them, orpathologizing them and thinking
oh, you want to do this onething.
That must mean you're X, Y andZ.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
You're a pervert, you're violent.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah.
And so having a sex therapistwho is informed and can say look
, no, your partner isn'tsuddenly becoming this awful
human being, this is normal, andbeing able to inform a partner
who's vanilla, I think thatwould be very important.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
That is absolutely important.
And sometimes if they say well,why didn't they know this?
How could they not tell me?
Well, they may not haveexperienced it yet.
They may have just come acrossa video somewhere or heard
something, someone talking aboutsomething, or saw a movie and
it piqued their curiosity andthey just didn't know.
And there's nothing wrong withit, it is normal.
(21:15):
There is a whole world of thisand a whole community of folks
who love this.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Yeah, Well, and I think that many people don't
realize how fluid your sexualinterests can be and even your
sexuality.
And if you don't know aboutsomething, then you don't know
how your body and your mind andyour preferences are going to
react to it.
And exposure even, like yousaid in a movie, in an article
(21:46):
that pops up, because there'smore and more out there
explaining different kinks, whatthey are, you know who likes
them, how you can approach them,and that knowledge in and of
itself allows people to discoverparts of themselves they may
not have had access to before.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, I just saw a movie.
Actually, one of my clientsasked me to watch it because one
of my kinky clients asked me towatch it because she had seen
it.
Baby Girl.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Baby Girl I just watched it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, you did.
I just watched it a few weeksago and what I loved about it
was how her kink partner thatshe was with Nicole Kidman
normalized it for her becauseshe was feeling like there was
something wrong with her, andthen how eventually her husband
was able to join her in that andnot look at her like she was
(22:39):
crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, that was the ending was very interesting to
me because it was actually thekink partner.
Folks, if you haven't seen BabyGirl, I recommend it.
Maybe it's not a cinematicmasterpiece, but I thought it
was a really I think.
I saw it last week.
I'm still sort of processing itand what all took place in it
because, spoiler alert, ifyou're going to watch it right
now, I'm going to give you asecond to like fast forward.
So do that right now.
All right, I liked how at theend, actually the kink partner
helped the husband, helped thehusband, and so this kind of
(23:31):
goes back to you talking abouthelping partners if they have
mismatched interest in kink.
Talk about can you explore thisoutside of our relationship if
one person is a hard?
No, because sometimes even youcan explore kink without there
being real.
I want to say sexualinteraction, meaning fluid
exchange or penetrative sex witha kink partner.
(23:55):
There's a lot of kink you canexplore without it breaking
certain agreements you can makewithin your relationship about
kissing or PNV sex or whateverthat might be.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
But it takes having someone that understands and is
informed, and so if you have atherapist, that's just like
something's wrong with you.
So it sounds to me like some ofthe primary issues that you see
from kink couples in youroffice are just everyday
relationship problems.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, for the most part they really are.
They really are just, you know,really any people in any
alternative sexual lifestyle.
I got a call recently fromsomeone who was poly but just
having desire discrepancy issueswith their primary partner, and
it happens.
(24:55):
The most common reason anycouple comes to therapy is
because of desire discrepancy.
One person wants more sex thanthe other, or one person is like
kind of dropped out of the sexgame and they don't want it and
they, you know they haven'treally wanted it at all and
whether they're kinky or poly oryou think, well, poly people
(25:20):
are, are having desire, butthere's, they're poly, they're
what they want so much.
No, look, there's still issuesaround desire.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
So what are your?
The most common kink-relatedreasons that couples come to you
, the problems that they facespecifically having.
We've named a couple, but Ijust kind of want to list them
off so that these couples whoare out there might go.
Okay, these are common.
I can go find someone who willhelp guide us.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So a lot of the normal issues.
One somebody broke a boundaryright they were going to do
these were the boundaries of therelationship and they, they
broke a boundary of therelationship, whether that was
being with someone else orcommunicating with someone else,
even online.
(26:18):
That wasn't supposed to happen.
Or if it was supposed to happen, you were supposed to tell me
if you were going to be withanother dom online, then you
should have told me that.
You didn't tell me that.
So trust and you know trustissues, communication issues
outside of the sexual realm,just this you know I work very
(26:41):
much with people.
I, in their relationship, Ilook at their cycle, what
happens between them, how oneperson triggers another, what
the other person does, how thattriggers the other person and
the cycle they get into.
Every couple, whether kinky orvanilla, they come in and
they've got some cycle happening.
(27:03):
So I really work with that,with their son.
Of course there is desirediscrepancy, there is kink style
discrepancy, as we talked aboutone person into kink, the other
person not into kink.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah Right.
So for my listeners right now,if they are out there and they
are recognizing that they havesome issues and they want to
find someone, what are somethings they should look for?
They're looking for a therapist.
Can you give them kind of abulleted list?
As they go out into the worldor go out into the online world
(27:44):
and start looking to interviewtherapists or pick a therapist,
what are some things they canlook for to make sure that
they're picking the right person?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So if they're looking for couples work, I think it's
really important to find someonewho's trained in couples
therapy, and I think it's alsoimportant to find someone who's
trained in sex therapy and,interestingly, they have never
taught couple and sex therapytogether.
Why, I don't know, and I thinkit's starting to blend a little.
(28:12):
The place where I did my coupleand family therapy training at
the Ackerman Institute in NewYork now does have a sex therapy
training program, but I thinkit's separate so I don't think
it gets incorporated.
I think you have to do likeboth of them.
So look for someone who isknowledgeable in sex therapy.
(28:33):
I think most sex therapists areknowledgeable in kink, like all
our conferences and everything.
Everything is very affirming,and so I think a good couples
therapist and someone who hassex therapy training is probably
the most important thing.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And you give a couple questions that are absolute
musts for a kinky couple to askwhen they're interviewing a
therapist to ask that therapistto make sure that that therapist
is going to be a good fit forthem.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, to let them know.
My partner and I are kinky.
Are you familiar with kink?
Are you kink aware?
Have you worked with otherkinky couples?
How do you feel about that?
I think you just have to bevery forthright and honest about
that.
And if they're like, well, whatdo you mean by kinky?
(29:28):
Say well, we, you know, I don'tthink you know, so then you
know.
Then they might want to move on.
And I've had people call me andsay you know, we're going to a
few people, we're calling a fewpeople, we're interviewing
around, we'll get back to you.
It's okay to do that.
(29:49):
It's okay to go to one couplestherapist and you know, go to
another couples therapist andsee which one you like better.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Do you recommend them asking about their specific
dynamic?
Are you familiar like theirspecific dynamic?
Are you familiar, like if it'sDOM-SUB or if it's into a
certain kind of play, primal or,you know, animalistic, whatever
it might be?
Is it important to ask yourtherapist in advance?
(30:20):
Are you familiar with thisspecific dynamic?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
with this specific dynamic.
I think it could be a veryuseful question.
Yeah, because there are peoplethat specialize and there's some
things like probably that Iwould say you know what, if
that's your kink, you might bebetter served with this person
who's an expert in that.
Or let me find you someonebecause I have access to the
community of therapists.
(30:50):
Let me go on my listserv andfind you someone who really
specializes in and understandsthat more than I do.
Yeah, I think that is a fairand useful question.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
So for my listeners right now who are going to start
looking for a therapist or whoare experiencing problems.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
What are maybe your three top piece of advices?
Little takeaways right now.
That is, listen closely to eachother, listen to hear, not to
respond Right, listen to hear,so, and even if you just reflect
back what the other person issaying before you give your take
on it or before you getdefenses.
(31:44):
So you are saying that when Ido X, y and Z, you feel like
really upset about that.
Yes, I do right.
Listening to hear and thenunderstanding.
Well, okay, it's not my, it wasnever my intention to make you
(32:04):
feel that way and I hear thatyou felt that way.
Validating a person.
Validating does not mean thatyou agree, like I always use the
example of if our kid doesn'twant to do their homework and we
say to them yeah, I get it, itsucks doing homework, you know,
it's like you'd rather beplaying your game or talking to
(32:25):
your friends or doing somethingelse, and you still have to do
your homework.
Right, you're still going totell them that, but you're going
to see them where they are.
So just validating just means Isee you where you are and
that's just a really good andpowerful tool so that you all
(32:46):
feel heard.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I love that.
Two more little pieces ofadvice takeaways for my
listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
To hear and validate each other.
Pause.
Pause before you react andnotice.
Well, every time I get upset, Istart attacking, and that's
never useful.
What always happens is theother person shuts down.
(33:16):
Well, if it didn't work timeone or two, or 734, it's not
going to work this time.
It's not going to work thistime.
So let me just pause and trysomething different.
Pause, open space before you gointo that usual, habitual
(33:38):
pattern.
As the Buddhist nun, pemaChodron says and you know, with
my studies in mindfulness, I'velearned this beautiful word,
equanimity which is best definedby its opposite, which is
reactivity.
So can I be with thisuncomfortable feeling?
Can I honor that it's here andnot be reactive to it?
And that's this pausing,creating a space, taking a
(34:04):
breath, taking some time away ifyou need it in order not to do
the thing that you usually do.
Yeah, that's that.
Causing is a good one, and ifyou find yourself really in that
space where you can't seem toget out of whatever keeps
(34:25):
happening between, seek help.
It is a strength to put up yourhand and say I can't do this
myself.
I need to bring in some helpand find someone who is
well-trained in doing that, thatyou feel comfortable in
relating to that.
(34:46):
You feel comfortable relatingto who is kink aware if you're
kinky.
Who is kink aware if you'rekinky, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I love that.
I love that.
So for my listeners, I thinkyou have a really good overview
of if you're kinky and you havenormal everyday relationship
issues still, find a therapistwho's kink aware and positive
Still, because you never knowhow that part of your life is
feeding into the out of thebedroom part of your life.
(35:15):
And if you do discover that,you want someone who gets it and
doesn't pathologize you wenever want that to happen, right
.
And also, wendy has done awonderful job of illustrating
some of the common kinky issuesthat can cause problems in a
relationship too.
And then what to look for whenyou're looking for that
(35:39):
therapist.
And what to look for if youcurrently have a couple's
therapist you're working withwho might be making you feel
more shameful or pathologizingyou because of your preference,
you might need to find a newtherapist right?
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, because they just don't know how to do it
right.
They just haven't learned.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Thank you so much.
Can you tell my listeners whereto find you if they want to
find out more about you orfollow you on socials?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
a Y, but I spell it with an.
I wendydumbrofftherapycom.
I think I have a Twitter pageor X or whatever it is.
Now we don't know?
Yeah, we don't know.
(36:36):
I have a Facebook page, buthonestly I'm not personally, I
just don't post a lot on that,but everything I've done is on
my website, so it's all there.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Fantastic, so you can go to her website and find out
more about her and connect withher if you are looking for
someone who will understand you.
Thank you so much.
Listeners, If you havequestions on this topic things
that I haven't covered pleasefeel free to either head over to
the YouTube channel atTalkSexForTheette and drop your
question in the comment sectionbelow, and we will do our best
(37:11):
to get back to you and get thatanswered.
You can always email me toAnnette at TalkSexWithAnettecom
and tell me your thoughts, yourquestions about common issues
that kinky couples have and howto get the help you need,
because everybody deserves to beseen, heard, understood and
(37:33):
helped in their own relationshipand sexual journey.
Thank you so much for joiningme, Wendy.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Thank you, Annette, so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
And to my listeners until next time I'll see you in
the locker room.
Cheers.
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