June 17, 2025 • 58 mins
Think gender is just “man” or “woman”—and anything else is made up?
Then this conversation is for you.
Because understanding gender-expansive identities isn’t about being “woke” or politically correct—it’s about being human. About expanding your capacity for empathy, connection, and truth.
In this episode, I’m joined by Kate S. Logan, a Marriage & Family Therapist Associate at Gender Wellness Los Angeles. Kate specializes in working with gender-expansive clients and guiding people through identity, relationships, and radical self-expression.
We’re diving into:
🧠 What “gender-expansive” actually means—and why it’s different from trans, nonbinary, or queer
💥 The #1 thing people get wrong about gender (and how it hurts everyone—including straight men)
🌱 Real ways to support someone who’s transitioning—or exploring who they are.
Whether you’re questioning, curious, or just ready to stop sounding like your uncle in a Fox News comment section, this episode will open your mind and expand your world.
Take a breath, stay open, and let’s go.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Do the sex pleasure and desire around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's topic is still thinkthere are only two genders.
Let's fix that.
Why understanding genderexpansive identities will change
(01:03):
your life.
Do you think gender is simply abinary that is just man or
woman and anything else is madeup?
Well, if so, you are overduefor this conversation, because
understanding gender expansiveidentities isn't just about
being politically correct.
It's not about checking a boxor even just being woke.
(01:24):
It's about being politicallycorrect.
It's not about checking a boxor even just being woke.
It's about being human.
It's about listening,connecting and recognizing that
real people exist beyond thenarrow boxes we've been taught
to accept.
So today we are diving into thebeautifully complex, deeply
personal and often misunderstoodworld of gender expansive
identities.
And to help us do it right, Iam joined by Kate Logan, a
(01:47):
marriage and family therapist atGender Wellness Los Angeles.
Kate provides affirming,client-centered therapy that
honors each person's uniqueidentity and lived experience.
She specializes in genderidentity exploration,
relationship challenges and thekind of self-expression that can
(02:08):
change lives.
Kate doesn't just talk the talk, she helps people live it.
Whether you are gender expansive, supporting someone who is, or
simply tired of sounding likeyour incel uncle rage, posting
under Fox News thread or one ofmy videos, this episode is for
you.
Look, I constantly get commentsabout the language I use in my
(02:32):
podcast, which is inclusivelanguage.
I talk about penis owners,vulva owners.
I try to include everyone intoday in response to comments I
often get from typically men whoare unhappy about that.
I am having this conversationto help expand minds and maybe
(02:57):
change minds so that we can havea more inclusive community here
.
But before we dive into thisconversation, I want to remind
you all that I am over onOnlyFans.
That is where I am posting myintimacy and sex how-tos
demonstrations, audio-guidedself-pleasure content in an
effort to help you all have amore pleasure-filled life and
(03:18):
help you on your journey to ahealthier, happier sex life.
So you can find me over thereunder my handle at
TalkSexWithAnnette.
You can also find me onSubstack, where I'm doing a lot
of the same and my handle is thesame.
There you can also scroll downwhere you're going to find links
to wherever you want to find meand however you want to find me
.
But, kate, let's dive in.
(03:39):
I would love for you to tell mylisteners a little bit more
about you.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, hi, annette, it's so good to be here.
I'm Kate Logan, associateMarriage and Family Therapist,
working in Los Angeles, and Ireally came into wanting to be a
therapist, really wanting towork in sex therapy and gender
exploration.
I specialize in LGBTQaffirmative psychotherapy and my
(04:05):
master's degree program and Ialso am a second career person.
I came out to LA, like everyoneelse does, to work in
entertainment and worked indocumentary films for gosh, I
guess the better part of about15 plus years or so, and now
that I've kind of switched mycareer over to working as a
(04:27):
therapist, I'm really lovingthis work.
I love working with clients,individuals and couples on their
intimacy issues, issues of sex,issues around gender and all
the other things that just kindof come with life and that can
connect so much with ourrelationships and our
understanding of our bodies andidentities and sexuality.
(04:49):
So it's been a really funjourney so far and I'm really
excited to be here and talk moreabout that.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I appreciate you joining us for this conversation
.
I think it's an important one.
I definitely want mylistenership to have opportunity
to understand gender better.
I think it's very confusing to alot of people, and this is
going to add clarity andhopefully, by the end of this
conversation, dear listeners,you will understand why it's not
(05:16):
just important for you tounderstand what gender expansive
means for other people's sake.
Expansive means for otherpeople's sake.
It's important for your ownsake and your own understanding
of who you are as a person, ahuman and a sexual being.
And by the end of this episode,my hope is that not only this
conversation will help you bemore accepting and loving of
(05:38):
others, it's also going to helpyou understand yourself better
as a person, as a romanticpartner and as a sexual being.
So stay to the end.
We will give you our takeaways,like we always do, but get
ready to talk about genderexpansive identities.
Cheers, cheers.
So let's just.
(06:00):
Let's start from the top here.
What does gender expansiveactually mean?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, so basically the term gender expansive it can
be kind of an umbrella term toinclude everyone that is outside
of the what we would call thegender binary, meaning like
you're either a man or you're awoman and there's no in between
and there's no variation and anyof those things.
Those are just only the one,two categories you can fall into
(06:29):
.
Gender expansive identities areliterally, with the words,
expanding beyond that, beyondthat strict binary between two
kind of opposites.
So that can mean a lot ofdifferent things under that
umbrella term.
That might include terms folksmight have heard like non-binary
or genderqueer.
(06:50):
Some folks would even considerlike trans women, trans men or
trans feminine identified people, trans masculine identified
people.
Under the umbrella of likegender expansive identities,
you're just falling outside ofthe two kind of boxes that most
of us were taught that You'rejust falling outside of the two
kind of boxes that most of uswere taught that we have to fit
into one theater.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Perhaps an important thing to discuss here too is
what is the difference betweengender and sex, because I think
that's where people get confused.
Can you help my listenerunderstand the difference?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is something that does getreally confusing.
So sex usually refers to, like,medically and biologically,
what parts you have or whatbalance of hormones, things that
are how your body kind ofpresents itself, and what
medically and biologically we'reseeing there.
(07:50):
Granted, sometimes I think thatconcept is used to say, well
see, there's only two genders,because there's just people with
vaginas and people with penises, and that's men and women, and
that's the whole story.
And even within, like the ideaof sex, there's one.
There's people born with what'scalled sometimes we call
(08:11):
intersex or differences ofsexual development, meaning that
it is not entirely black orwhite or clear based on their
anatomy or hormones orchromosomes or any number of
other things, but that wouldfall under the category of sex.
We're talking about gender.
You'll hear people say genderis a social construct and, yes,
(08:35):
in a lot of ways that's whatdifferentiates it.
Gender is how you presentyourself to what you want, to
how you want to be perceived asfar as whether it's being
perceived and presenting as aman or a woman or a non-binary
person or something else in kindof the gender expansive
universe.
And gender really is soculturally bound, right, like we
(08:58):
think of what is consideredmen's clothes and women's
clothes, really based on ourculture and other cultures that
might be entirely different.
So gender expression and genderidentity are things that are a
lot more kind of how peopleperceive and how people present
themselves versus the actualphysical body they were born in
(09:19):
and the variations they're inthe variations they're in.
So it's the expression of yourgender is the expression of what
you identify as right, yeah,yeah, and how you would hope and
want people around you toperceive you as.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Correct and what you are saying is that between the
binary that we've been taught,man and woman, between when
you're younger, maybe there areboys and girls at school and as
(10:13):
they develop.
A boy might be teased aboutbeing girly or a girl might be
teased about looking like a boy.
It's like it's a difference intheir gender expression correct
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And gender, I mean I guess a gender expression
doesn't always necessarily haveto be congruent with gender
identity.
I mean, a really great exampleof this might be like we think
of a static, the late princethere was a lot of those prints
expressed himself that was moretypically feminine, but it was
also very clear, to the best ofmy knowledge, that he'd always
(10:52):
identified very firmly as, likea man.
That that was just because heexpressed himself in ways that
were maybe a little genderbending or considered more
feminine in our culture, didn'tnecessarily mean that he
identified outside of being maleagain, as far as I know.
Or like David Bowie is anothergood example.
We can come up with these allday Same.
On the other side, like youmight have a woman who
(11:15):
identifies as a woman andthere's kind of no question she
has, but she dresses more andpresents more typically in our
culture male, maybe shorter hair, wearing a suit instead of a
dress.
So the gender expression isn'tjust for, like, trans people or
non-binary people.
Like we all have genderexpression right, I'm wearing
makeup today.
That's part of my genderexpression as a woman, as a
(11:37):
cisgender female, and noteveryone wears makeup, but I
like to because it kind ofaffirms the way that I feel.
So that's really genderexpression.
Gender identity is okay.
I like to think of it as likewhen you're in the shower,
you've got no makeup, you've gotno clothes, you're just alone.
Like what gender are you?
What do you feel like in yourheart and your soul?
(11:59):
That you are and that's yourgender identity.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Okay, so what is the number one thing people get
wrong about gender?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think honestly that I mean the number
one thing I hear today is justthis idea that there are only
two genders, immutable fromhilariously conception, which is
?
Anyone who knows biology knowsthat at conception we're
actually technically all female,but that's you know.
Google it if you're sure whatthat's about.
(12:29):
But yeah, this idea thatthere's this natural quote,
unquote gender binary and peoplewho identify outside of that
are delusional or like it's justnot true or something's wrong.
And even if you strip away allthese notions of what you feel
like or what your genderidentity is in your heart, just
(12:50):
biologically there is not a neat, clean definition of gender at
all.
Not only are there differencesof sexual development that
happen in like a roughly 1% ofthe population, which is the
same amount of people as thereare redheads, so it's rare, but
it's not that rare we, which isthe same amount of people as
there are redheads, so it's rare, but it's not that rare.
(13:12):
We're still talking aboutmillions of people who are born
with either genitalia thataren't typically like male or
female, but born withchromosomes that are neither XX
nor XY, who are born withconditions that affect how their
hormones are, so you might havesomeone who grows a beard but
has a vagina and breasts, andthat is how they were born.
You know these intersex kind ofconditions.
(13:34):
So, just in the face of it,even if you get away all this
good with the quote-unquotegender ideology, it's like there
is not one biologicaldefinition of gender.
It's like there is not onebiological definition of gender.
There just is not.
And then if we expand outsideof things that maybe even
(13:58):
science doesn't quite fullyunderstand yet, the idea of,
okay, changes in fashion,changes in roles that people can
have, and that's nothing reallythat new.
It's never been that simple.
As man, woman, when you're born, we know what it is and that's
the end of the story.
And I think that's the biggestmisconception is one that this
(14:19):
is new.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And two, that this is some sort of immutable
scientific fact, because it'sjust not Well.
And not to mention that wedon't actually know the number
of people who don't adherebiologically to what people are
saying as man and woman, becauseyou don't always get your
hormones checked, you don'talways get your chromosomes
checked, and one thing I didfolks interview an intersex
(14:46):
person and one thing that theypointed out was that some people
aren't even discovered to beintersex until after they pass
and there's an autopsy and thenthey recognize oh, their
reproductive organs weren't whatwe thought they were.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
And then they recognize oh, their reproductive
organs weren't what we thoughtthey were.
So, yeah, yeah, and it's notuncommon too for people with
vaginas, or like externalgenitalia that appears typically
female, to discover that theyare intersex when they go to try
to get pregnant.
Or in some cases it'sdiscovering that there's
internal testes, because oftenthose can become cancer and
(15:28):
that's something that can affectpeople's health.
So, yeah, and you're right,it's absolutely not as if when
you're born, they get all of thedata about what, all the
different things that areassociated with gender.
We use terms people may haveheard of like assigned female at
birth or assigned male at birth.
That's because that's how theydo it.
The baby comes out, they seetheir genitalia and you kind of
(15:52):
go from there.
It's not like you'renecessarily chronotyped or
having hormone levels checked orall these different things, and
that might be well and good foran infant at the time, but it's
the end of the story and it'snot even all of the information
that might go into one's evenbiologicals.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So, to go back, over that, because I do use that
often assigned to female birth.
You might also hear it statedAFAB or AMAB, which is assigned
male at birth, and that justmeans after the child comes out
and you're, or maybe even beforeyou, take a look at them and
they're like here's what webelieve you to be, right?
(16:28):
Yeah, Looking at your body,right?
So just to clear up thoseterminology or terms for my
listeners who may not befamiliar with them how do you
think gender norms, meaning thebelief that it's just man and
woman, it's just him and her,screw all of us up, Even the
(16:50):
straight men in my comments whoget angry when I talk about
penis owners and vulva owners.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, oh gosh, that's like there are a lot of ways
that that kind of hurts everyone.
No-transcript.
(17:32):
We associate that withoppression of women and
minorities, because it is, andit also like robs men of the
chance to not just explore thequote-unquote feminine side but
just decide for themselves howthey want to feel.
Like a man, like what's manlyto you doesn't have to be what
(17:53):
you know is stereotypicallythought of and that might really
not resonate with a lot of men,and I mean I'm probably the
same as you in that.
I've certainly talked to plentyof like cisgender, meaning that
they identify with the gender oftheir birth.
They've never questioned it.
Cisgender straight men who evenmight have some more
traditional kind of beliefs, andthere's always something that
(18:16):
doesn't quite fit for them inthe strict rules around gender
roles and that hurts them justas much as it it hurts anyone
else who doesn't feel like, okay, this isn't quite right for me
Limits opportunities in life tohave wonderful experiences and
to learn about yourself.
So, yeah, I think the morerestrictive we get in these
(18:38):
gender roles and gender binaries, it just a lot of missed
opportunities for things outsideof that that can be really
wonderful and beautiful thateveryone can benefit from.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right.
I think a good example is a lotof cis men believe that if they
show too much emotion or theyaccess their feelings, or they
cry, or they allow themselves toget close to a woman and
express love and compassion thatthat's not manly.
(19:10):
And so their needs, theiremotional needs, go unmet right.
They can't get the connectionthat they need or they want.
That's just like an obvious way.
But I think also another thingto speak to here is it can also
be divisive between father andson or brothers or whatever it
(19:37):
is.
If you are so narrow minded inyour idea of what it means to be
a man and what that looks like,and then you have a child who
comes into being and maybe theydon't fit that, your son doesn't
fit that mold but stillidentifies as being a boy and
(20:01):
then the father's browbe beatinghim.
You've got to go and want tohunt and fish and don't cry.
And I also want to say we talk alot about the loneliness
epidemic I'd love to hear youspeak to that and gender norms,
because I don't think women arethe problem with men
experiencing the lonelinessepidemic.
(20:25):
I think that our society'sdefinition of what it is to be a
man is the problem, because menare not socialized or raised to
create connections with othermen, to bond and create
community.
That has typically been quote awoman's job.
(20:47):
So women, we aren't lonelybecause we know how to connect
with other women.
We know how to create a tribeRight and have that emotional
support.
We hug each other.
My girlfriends stay the nightand we like, hold each other and
have sleepovers.
But men are told you can't dothat or you're gay.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I would like could you speak to how these gender
norms are at the source of themen's loneliness epidemic?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah Now, and as a therapist like I see this all
the time with I mean with a lotof men, but in particular
millennials, gen X, boomers,where it's this idea that being
emotionally vulnerable isweakness and that if you need
anyone, that's bad and so likeyou can't.
(21:40):
How can you have closefriendships or relationships or
community without at least somelevel of vulnerability, like
letting people know who you areor seeing what's actually going
on in your life underneath thesurface, and so the more like
men are socialized to not nothave needs, to do everything on
their own which nobody can right, and to also, and not only just
(22:03):
to not have needs but to nothave emotions, to not need
support from other people and tolike that closeness is somehow
it's almost like oh, it'ssomehow like gay to have
close-nail friends, which is no,it's gay.
To be attracted to men, that'swhat gayness is.
And somehow like gay to haveclose-nail friends, which is no,
it's gay.
To be attracted to men, that'swhat gayness is, and to want to
have relationships with them.
Like that, having closefriendships should be universal.
(22:25):
I think I get a great example ofthis.
You were talking about how youhave your girlfriends over and
it's no big deal to sleep overand sleep all night and, like
most of them I know, are notlike in group having sleepovers
with their friends and thenwondering, oh, does this mean
I'm a lesbian?
Maybe they're wondering thatbecause they were attracted to
their female friends, in whichcase cool.
But I mean every man I don'tknow any man that I can think of
(22:50):
who is like straight, who wouldsleep in the same king size bed
with a friend.
If they only had, if there wasonly one hotel room open, like
one guy would be suffering onthe floor because why and I mean
, okay, that's your preferenceif you want to sleep in the bed
of someone else, but it's sortof these things that become
silly, like you're so afraid ofcloseness with someone of the
(23:12):
same gender and that it mustmean you're either too feminine
or you're too gay, which thingswhich are not inherently bad,
but we're told they're bad.
If you're a man, you're notsupposed to go in that direction
, and I think that hurts them alot.
It makes them really lonely.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So can gender identity evolveover time, or is it a set thing?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It can definitely evolve over time.
I mean, for some folks it isset and they don't really ever
question it.
I mean myself as a cisgenderwoman.
I, for whatever reason in mybiology and psychology I've
never really questioned I feelcomfortable as a woman, with all
the disadvantages it still maybring.
I don't feel like that'sdisconcordant.
(23:58):
Others might feel really earlyon that they are kind of in the
wrong body, that people aremisgendering them from a very
early age.
Their understanding of whatthat means might be different
depending on any number offactors.
But there are some trans folksthat from like their earliest
memories remember like justbeing drawn to the gender that
(24:21):
they weren't assigned kind oftoys or ways of dressing or
whatever.
And then it's really consistentand they just sort of know
something is off.
They get, they understand aword for it at some point.
Okay, there's a thing calledbeing trans.
Usually it's okay, that is whatI am, and for other people it's
not that clear.
It might be something thatcomes up at any kind of point in
(24:43):
their life that they'restarting to notice.
Okay, the way that maybe I'mexpressing myself or the way
that people perceive me doesn'tquite feel right or doesn't
really align with my values andbeliefs and what does, and that
can be something that somepeople never kind of settle,
like okay, this is what I'mgoing to be till the end of time
(25:04):
.
And that might be people thatfeel like they're more gender
fluid or non-binary, becausethey just want to opt out of the
idea of the gender binaryaltogether.
It's sort of like, okay,instead of choosing which
football team you're going toplay on, you're not in the
stadium.
You're just like, no, I'm notinto football, so everyone else
can go play, that's fine, butI'm going to go do something
else, yeah, and so that's.
(25:25):
It's definitely not something Ithink is ever set, in the same
way that our sexual orientationscan sometimes be like,
completely clear to us from thevery beginning and never shift,
and for other people thingsmight be a little bit more fluid
and like all those things Ithink are just as fine and valid
(25:45):
as anything.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Can you clearly explain what gender fluidity is?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, good question.
So people who identify asgender fluid basically are
saying that they do not identifyas the same gender or vice
versa, the male they mightidentify as not binary but sort
(26:17):
of feeling like their expressionor their kind of sense of of
internal gender identity shifts.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat it's like bouncing back and
forth between two binaries ofman and woman.
For some people it might feelthat way, but for others it
might just kind of be more oflike okay, it's a there's like
(26:37):
feminine vibe times and malevibe time and or just something
all together outside of thebinary that maybe we don't quite
have the language for.
But the idea of the fluid isthat it's they don't feel like
it's set still right now.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Not all people know right off the bat, or are
willing to know right off thebat, that they don't identify as
the gender they've beenassigned, and sometimes,
(27:18):
especially for older generations.
Now, I think Gen Z is a lotmore on top of this, but there
are millennials, gen Xers even,who are just now realizing oh, I
don't really identify as female, I think maybe I'm non-binary
or whatever it might be.
Yeah, or whatever it might be,yeah.
What would you say to thepeople around them who love them
(27:42):
and then find out that they'requestioning that?
How could they react to that?
To be as supportive as possible, even if they might be a little
bit like the guy in my commentssection who's like yeah, not is
like it's only man and a woman.
(28:02):
Quit using that other language,because that man might someday
have someone he loves come outand say I don't think I am a
woman or a man and say I don'tthink I am a woman or a man.
What are some things you can doin that moment?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
even if it's something you don't fully
understand.
What an absolutely greatquestion One, I mean.
I think the number one thing isto listen to the person.
You can ask questions, but alsorespect that some questions
might be too personal, forexample, depending on how close
the relationship is like.
Don't ask someone about whatthey may or may not want to do
with their genitals, like youwouldn't ask anyone else that
(28:44):
unless you were very, very closewith them.
So same thing here.
But also it's really just aboutnot making assumptions and
being like patient and justtalking to the person and seeing
what they need.
And a lot for a lot of people,especially if the person telling
them that they feel like theymight be trans or non-binary or
(29:07):
gender fluid if it's, say, afamily member or someone that's
very close, they've known for areally long time there can be a
real like kind of mourningperiod where they're kind of
mourning the loss of the versionof that person that they've
known for however many years.
So it's a very real thing andit doesn't necessarily mean that
(29:30):
you're being transphobic or notaccepting it's a big change and
all change involves some levelof grief, even if it's change
for the better.
Especially like to parents,recognize that it's okay to
grieve the loss of the genderversion of the child that you
had and to also, at the sametime, be open and embrace, like
(29:52):
who they're becoming and people.
Contrary to a lot of themessages in the media, a lot of
people do want to take a lot oftime and really explore and
experiment with things and learnabout themselves and at the end
of that journey they may circleback to being like cisgender
and identifying gender resent atbirth.
(30:14):
They may not.
There may be something else,but you know.
So that's all valid and theagenda is not to be like, okay,
if you have these feelings, youhave to immediately go get a
surgery and get a hormone.
Like no, not at all, it mightbe a really healthy especially
for younger people type ofexperimentation that we all do
to understand kind of who we arein the world.
(30:35):
So that just because someone'squestioning doesn't mean that
there's a foregone conclusionone way or another.
And to be patient and likeopen-minded with that.
Yeah, try being curious yeahwhat is?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
that.
What does that feel like foryou?
You know what does that meanabsolutely?
What are you feeling?
Approaching things withcuriosity, especially when I
think it's normal to feel fearwhen something that is foreign
to you or steps outside of yourquote belief system is presented
(31:09):
.
But if you can take a moment tobe curious, instead of angry or
hateful or shutting your minddown like what is the harm
that's going to come from that,yeah, absolutely, and I'll share
that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
One of my siblings is trans and non-binary and this
is just my experience.
When they came out, it was sortof like this wonderful moment
and we were like, oh, that makessense.
They were someone that is orwas assigned female at birth.
We would probably describe themas like a tomboy growing up,
(31:48):
and when they finally came outas non-binary it was almost like
, oh, this is more of theirauthentic identity, that like
we're all missing and didn'thave the language for at the
time and at least for me,watching kind of their
transition, both socially andmedically, was so much.
Oh, this is the same personI've always known.
(32:11):
I'm just really glad they're ina time and a place when they can
be kind of the most them thatthey can be, that they're their
own most authentic self and thatthey're perceived by the world
the way that they want to be.
They can dress and look the waythat feels best to them and at
the end of the day, even ifsomeone thinks that there's
(32:31):
something morally wrong withthat, it's like you know what my
sibling does every day.
There's something morally wrongwith that.
It's like you know what mysibling does every day.
They get up, they walk the dog,they say goodbye to their
partner and they go to work andthey come home and they buy
groceries.
And they're not here to convertanyone or to bother anyone.
They're just existing in theworld the way that they feel
(32:52):
most authentic and mostcomfortable, and I think that
they're certainly a less anxious, better person for that,
because they can be comfortablein their own skin.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Well, and let's talk about gender affirming care.
You spoke about people's firstquestions being what are you
going to do with your genitals?
Are you going to get topsurgery?
But the same people who arefreaked out by that are okay
with women cutting open theirboobs and adding size in.
(33:25):
That's gender affirming care.
That's a woman feeling morefeminine, more womanly by adding
size to her boobs, becausethat's again what society has
said makes a woman womanly.
Liposuction to make her stomachflat, the PBLs to make that
(33:46):
booty round, I mean, and samefor men, right?
That's all gender affirmingcare and you're okay with that.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
It's all gender affirming care and you're okay
with that.
Yeah, yeah, now this is.
That is definitely a reallygood point and something you say
all the time is like one, and Ilove the like oh, I'm against
pronouns.
Like we all have pronouns, it'sjust a feature of our language
and like and gender affirmingmedical care is for everyone,
not just trans folks ornon-binary folks.
(34:18):
Like exactly what you said.
And the idea of like genderexpression is also something we
all do.
Like we all express what genderwe feel like.
We are in different ways andthat can even vary widely
between people who do identifyas a man or a woman.
There's not one version ofthose things that would be so
boring if there was, but it'slike the slap the word trans on
(34:42):
it and all of a sudden peoplereally start to freak out and I
think it's honestly.
It's a lot of fear mongeringover a very small percentage of
the population is reallyessentially not doing anything
that different from what many ofpeople do To feel, like I said,
more feminine, more masculine,in a way that feels right to
them.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right.
So getting back to pronouns,what would you say to the guy
talking to out there who is soadamant about pronouns and the
use of pronouns being a certainway him and her and nothing in
(35:27):
between?
What would you say to thatperson?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
yeah, there's a lot of things I would say.
One is I would say like, nomatter what your beliefs are,
when you don't use someone'spreferred pronouns or the
pronouns that they use, it'sjust disrespect that, regardless
of what you believe, you needto know that you're
communicating to that person.
I don't respect you and I'mgoing to use words to describe
(35:58):
you that you have specificallytold me not to, and I think we
can all relate to how that wouldfeel bad, even if, let's say,
you're a woman that got marriedand changed your last name
because you wanted to.
If someone who is like I, don'tbelieve in marriage, I don't
think women should take theirhusband's last name.
It's patriarchal and this andthat I'm just going to keep
calling you your maiden name.
(36:19):
That would be reallydisrespectful, even if they
sincerely held that belief.
And so it goes both ways, right?
Regardless of what you believe,it's about showing the other
person respect, and for peoplethat say, okay, well, you know,
they them is grammaticallyincorrect.
The literal dictionary hastweeted I think that it's not
(36:40):
grammatically incorrect, sothey're losing on that battle.
And it's not about grammar,right?
It's hard to learn new thingsand to feel like you might mess
them up and someone might be mador offended.
I get it.
When I was trying to remembermy siblings' new pronouns, it
took me three years to stopmaking mistakes.
It takes practice and that'sokay.
(37:00):
I think the vast majority offolks that have pronouns that
you wouldn't naturally want touse for them understand that
people are not going to beperfect and that we're kind of.
You know.
We're conditioned to usepronouns for people that present
a certain way.
It's okay to make mistakes,just be respectful.
It's just about like basicrespect.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, you're being a bully.
I mean, if you're okay withthat, if that's who you want to
be in this world and in thislife, certainly that's your
choice, but it's bullying.
And that brings me to what isthe emotional toll of being
misgendered over and over andover again.
And how can we betterunderstand that pain that these
(37:48):
people, these folks, areexperiencing?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, I would say for someone that maybe feels like
they're not quite sure why thisis a big deal.
Imagine if, everywhere you went, everyone misgendered you, that
mistook you for the gender thatyou're not, if you're a man,
and if, everywhere you went,people are like oh excuse me,
(38:12):
ma'am All right, she needs helpover here referring to you.
Like imagine how that wouldbother you to constantly be like
I hear people doing this, don'tI look like a man.
I want to be perceived as a man.
I need to correct people overand over again.
This is disrespectful, all thosethings you might feel, and if
(38:33):
that's not fine, you can imagine.
It's just sort of imagine likesomebody if you were somewhere
and people kept using your wrongname or mispronouncing your
name constantly or anything elsethat is just infused in our
daily lives and our speech andcommunicating with each other.
It's like it can be like kindof like a little paper cut each
time, a reminder that eitheryou're being disrespected by the
(38:55):
people around you who you mightjust be interacting with
throughout the course of yourday you have no choice to
interact with them or be thatyou're reminded that you're not
being perceived in the way thatyou really want to be, and that
can be so painful, especiallywhen it happens over and over
again, and so I think that'sreally the importance of doing
(39:16):
our best with respectingpeople's pronouns, because it is
like a death by a thousand cutsfor a lot of folks and that
adds a lot of stress and anxietyto their day.
That's not necessarily helpinganyone.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Right, do you really want to be that person?
I'm like, do you really want tobe that person?
And I want to say I had thisreally recently, this really
beautiful moment where a transperson reached out to me and
thanked me for doing my best toalways use inclusive language
and expressed how it made adifference for them and it gave
(40:09):
them the opportunity toparticipate in the conversation
and learn the things they neededto learn and trans non-binary
people to exist right now inthis country, in this time when
it's so dangerous and they'rebeing treated so horribly by our
(40:30):
own government, right and forme to do even a tiny bit to
create some sort of safe space,some acknowledgement of their
existence and their humanity,like just by using words.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's so simple, absolutely absolutely.
And it it signals that, likeyou're, I mean a safe person in
the sense that one I mean.
The reality is a lot like transfolks or like anyone kind of an
lgbtq identity has a legitimatefear of violence in a lot of
situations that, like straightor cis people just aren't going
(41:14):
to think about because we don'thave to experience that, and so
I think that communicating thatjust hey, I'm not going to say
something overtly hurtful, I'mnot going to try to beat you up,
I'm not going to fire you fromyour job, I'm not going to
whatever it is is reallypowerful, right, and it doesn't
take a lot of work.
(41:34):
It takes a little bit of okay,I'm going to sort of retrain how
I phrase some things, but notthat big of a deal at the end of
the day.
And I think you know, like ifsomeone, let's say, if you were
one of the only people who was aChristian in your town, that
everyone else followed someother religion and went to a
different temple or a differentplace, and if every time someone
(41:57):
talked about religion and howimportant it was, or faith, they
never referred to Christianityor they never acknowledged your
holidays or they never put thatup, like eventually you really
start to feel isolated and thenadd in what if there was a bunch
of rhetoric saying it's wrongto be Christian and these people
should are sick in the head andI'm not going to respect if
(42:18):
someone wears a cross, I'm notgoing to let them into my
establishment, like you couldimagine.
It's like that.
And look, these are things thathave happened in places in the
world, whereas it's notsomething that is fictitious and
like that would be awful andthat would be unfair and that's
not the kind of world I wouldwant to live in.
And so, when it comes to transand non-binary, like respecting
(42:40):
those rights, like again, it'slike you don't have to alter
your beliefs but you shouldtreat everyone with respect,
because that's what you wouldwant for yourself and isn't,
like the golden rule, somethingmaybe we all can think about a
little bit more these days.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, I'll tell you.
what I have done is I've juststarted using they, them for
everybody and it's been reallynice for me because what I've
also found is when people knowthat the gender of the person
I'm hanging out with or spendingtime with, they'll make
assumptions.
When I use they them, theydon't know the gender.
(43:16):
They'll make assumptions.
When I use they them, theydon't know the gender.
They can't make assumptions,you know.
Yeah, it's so true.
I love using that in theworkspace, I love using that in
my personal space and it reallyit works.
It works well and it's a quickway to learn to and include
everyone.
So if there is someone rightnow who is looking to explore
(43:40):
their gender for the first time,what are some things they
should know and what can helpthem on their journey?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah well, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, if
they're in California, they canlook at gender wellness.
We have several very goodtherapists who have a lot of
experience in this.
That can kind of help justexplore and answer questions and
guide people through theprocess of understanding their
gender identity or transitioning, if that's what they decide to
do.
But outside of therapy, which,of course, I'm biased towards, I
(44:11):
would say getting out into thecommunity can be so helpful, and
that can also be online.
There's a lot of great onlinecommunities.
But ideally, if you're in aplace where there's LGBTQ events
or communities or they'retrans-specific or just kind of
queer gatherings generally, thatcan be a great place to explore
(44:33):
, to talk to other people whomay have gone through the same
things, to try presenting adifferent way in an environment
where it is safe and that, if itdoesn't feel right for you,
it's like it's okay.
Most of the people there aregoing to know what that's like
and then that's really importantand almost can't be replaced by
anything else.
There's a lot of greatresources in books and things
(44:53):
like that.
That can be very helpful, butat the end of the day, I think
it's like reaching out andconnecting to other people who
have gone through what you mightbe going through and are either
on the other side of it or alsogoing through it at the same
time.
Out of the isolation that oftenyou can feel we're going
(45:18):
through hard things or afraidthat we're going to be
discriminated against if we talkabout what we're thinking
that's getting us place.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
And what are some micro moments of gender
affirmation that can have a bigimpact on someone's day?
So for a parent who's justfound out that their child
thinks they might be non-binaryor trans, or even if you're just
a friend or a sibling orwhatever, what are some micro
(45:47):
moments you can make sure happenin your loved one's day that
can make a big difference?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
I would say one thing right off the top of my head
that I know I'm personallyworking on doing more for myself
is when I introduce myself tonew people, I generally just say
my pronouns to normalize it.
I know most people are going tosee me and assume she, her, and
they're correct.
I, she, her are my pronouns.
But I had this experience alittle while ago with my sibling
who's.
I had this experience a littlewhile ago with my sibling who's,
(46:17):
now in binary at a gatheringwhere we didn't know most of the
people there and it was almostlike they had to.
It was this awkward okay,people are misgendering them,
but then you just met them.
Do you want to be like?
Oh, actually, my pronouns arethis.
It's almost like coming out andmaking it a thing when we're
just making chit chat at a party, like nobody is necessarily
(46:38):
wanting to talk about genderidentity or their gender.
You know it's just introducingyourself.
So I think for me, like to,because it's low stakes, right,
I'm not going to likely bemisgendered.
I can say hi, I'm Kate, she,her are my pronouns, and then if
someone around me has pronounsthat people are not, naturally
going to think oh, okay, thoseare the pronouns, I think go
(47:00):
with that person, they mightfeel a lot safer and kind of
have permission, or they have anally to back them up, to be
like oh hi, I'm, you knowso-and-so, I go by, they, them,
or he, him or whatever it is forthem.
Just normalizing that is likejust a thing that doesn't have
to be a big deal and thatdoesn't even have to be a whole
(47:22):
discussion.
It's just letting people knowlike the same thing is kind of
like your name, like this isjust how I want you to refer to
me.
So I think that's a big thing.
And also, I think just likecommunicating that you love and
support them, without alsofocusing so much on the gender
identity and forgetting that,like they're whole people with
the rest, their whole otherlives going on and a lot of
(47:43):
times nothing to do with genderidentity.
That's just one aspect of theirlives.
So like acknowledging it butnot centering it so much that it
feels like that's the onlything that you see right, you
can see them as a whole person.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Are there any last things?
You want to leave my listenerswith Any last pieces of advice,
things you think they reallyneed to know or that will help
them understand the idea ofgender being more than this
binary more than this binary.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
yeah, it's part of me honestly really wants to like
speak to kind of all the thehaters out there at the same
time.
I don't know that I'm you know,me like a liberal who is a
therapist or for transgenderpeople in Los Angeles is gonna
convince anyone.
So I'm not sure I'll go downthat road, although, believe me,
it's tempting, because I havearguments with my computer and
my TV about this stuff all day.
So I think what I will leavewith is that you know if you are
(48:49):
someone that is feeling unsureabout your gender identity or
you're feeling really sure, butthe pathway there is really
scary and difficult and maybefeels like it's impossible, but
right now, these times can makepeople feel like to make a
choice one way or another.
Right now you have to justdecide.
So you know like what teamyou're on, and I just encourage
(49:12):
those folks to slow down.
There's no rush.
If you're absolutely sure, jumpin and do what is right for you
.
If you're not sure, that's alsookay.
And this idea that the peopleare rushing and making rash
decisions, I think a lot oftimes actually makes people feel
like they need to do that andthat's, you know, with any big
(49:33):
shift.
It's like take your time,listen to yourself, find
community, talk to a therapist,talk to someone else who's gone
through it, and give yourselfthat space to just be curious
about yourself and then, nomatter what the outcome, you'll
know yourself better andprobably just be a more
reflective, humble person in theworld.
(49:56):
And couldn't we use more ofthat these days?
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, I love that, and I think I would like to sum
this up with I do have a coupleand out of all of the people
that listen and comment, it istruly only a couple of cis men
at least that's how they'representing themselves who come
to my comments to make angrycomments every time I use a
(50:21):
language that is inclusive, andwhat I want to say is I know
that you keep coming back to mycontent because there's
something that you want to getout of it, and I create content
for every person because I thinkeveryone benefits from learning
more about their sexuality,their sex life, intimacy, how to
(50:44):
connect with and love eachother, which is really what it
all comes down to.
And I honor cis men, I honor ciswomen, I honor trans people and
I just encourage you keepcoming back.
I know it makes you angry whenI talk about penis owners and
vulva owners and AFAB people andAMAB people, but keep coming
(51:05):
back, even if it makes you angry, because I think what you'll
find is, the more that youlisten, the more you hear that
your brain is, your mind isgoing to open itself, whether
you want it to or not, and amore inclusive world is going to
be a better world in the end.
So thank you for taking time tohelp my listeners understand
this a little bit more.
(51:26):
I know that it's confusing.
We have not been taught thisstuff.
We're having to unlearn, whichis much harder in some cases
than learning, and then we'rehaving to relearn.
It's scary, it's frustrating,it's confusing, I get it, but
it's a work worth doing.
I would love it if you couldtell my listeners and viewers
(51:47):
where they can find out moreabout you.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, well, first place to go is gender wellness
website, which is genwellorg.
You can also find us onInstagram and actually let me
make sure that I'm giving youthe right handle.
So we are at gender wellness LAall one word on Instagram and
(52:10):
socials, and so you can see Ihave a little bit of content on
there.
I'm not the best at I'm anelder millennials.
I'm not used to making all thevideos and stuff, but I'm
getting better at it.
I give little self-care tipsand other fun things like that,
hoping to do more kind ofeducational things around there.
But yeah, you can learn aboutme at genderwell or genwellorg,
(52:33):
our website, or on Instagram and, my sorry, I can cut that out
of my Instagram handle, but I'lljust stick to.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Jeff Gwalt as well.
Perfect, perfect, all rightguys.
And if you have any questions,comments about this topic and
you are on my YouTube channel,which is at TalkSex with Annette
, you can drop it right into thecomments section below the
video.
You can also email me atAnnette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom
.
You can scroll down to the linkin the description of this
(53:03):
podcast and send me a voice noteon my speak pipe as well.
There's lots of ways to getyour comments to me and I will
do the best I can to get thosequestions answered.
If you're looking for asidekick in your intimacy
journey, a cheerleader, if youwill, I have my books open right
now for intimacy coaching andyou can find out more about that
(53:24):
at TalkSexWithAnettecom.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I appreciate all theinformation you've shared.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
It's been awesome to be here here.
I love talking about the sexand I look forward to hopefully
talking to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Perfect and to my listeners until next time I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers ring loop.
Do the sex pleasure and desire around here.
Nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
(00:40):
you're new, welcome to mypodcast.
Where desire meets disruptionand pleasure becomes power.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's topic is still thinkthere are only two genders.
Let's fix that.
Why understanding genderexpansive identities will change
(01:03):
your life.
Do you think gender is simply abinary that is just man or
woman and anything else is madeup?
Well, if so, you are overduefor this conversation, because
understanding gender expansiveidentities isn't just about
being politically correct.
It's not about checking a boxor even just being woke.
(01:24):
It's about being politicallycorrect.
It's not about checking a boxor even just being woke.
It's about being human.
It's about listening,connecting and recognizing that
real people exist beyond thenarrow boxes we've been taught
to accept.
So today we are diving into thebeautifully complex, deeply
personal and often misunderstoodworld of gender expansive
identities.
And to help us do it right, Iam joined by Kate Logan, a
(01:47):
marriage and family therapist atGender Wellness Los Angeles.
Kate provides affirming,client-centered therapy that
honors each person's uniqueidentity and lived experience.
She specializes in genderidentity exploration,
relationship challenges and thekind of self-expression that can
(02:08):
change lives.
Kate doesn't just talk the talk, she helps people live it.
Whether you are gender expansive, supporting someone who is, or
simply tired of sounding likeyour incel uncle rage, posting
under Fox News thread or one ofmy videos, this episode is for
you.
Look, I constantly get commentsabout the language I use in my
(02:32):
podcast, which is inclusivelanguage.
I talk about penis owners,vulva owners.
I try to include everyone intoday in response to comments I
often get from typically men whoare unhappy about that.
I am having this conversationto help expand minds and maybe
(02:57):
change minds so that we can havea more inclusive community here
.
But before we dive into thisconversation, I want to remind
you all that I am over onOnlyFans.
That is where I am posting myintimacy and sex how-tos
demonstrations, audio-guidedself-pleasure content in an
effort to help you all have amore pleasure-filled life and
(03:18):
help you on your journey to ahealthier, happier sex life.
So you can find me over thereunder my handle at
TalkSexWithAnnette.
You can also find me onSubstack, where I'm doing a lot
of the same and my handle is thesame.
There you can also scroll downwhere you're going to find links
to wherever you want to find meand however you want to find me
.
But, kate, let's dive in.
(03:39):
I would love for you to tell mylisteners a little bit more
about you.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, hi, annette, it's so good to be here.
I'm Kate Logan, associateMarriage and Family Therapist,
working in Los Angeles, and Ireally came into wanting to be a
therapist, really wanting towork in sex therapy and gender
exploration.
I specialize in LGBTQaffirmative psychotherapy and my
(04:05):
master's degree program and Ialso am a second career person.
I came out to LA, like everyoneelse does, to work in
entertainment and worked indocumentary films for gosh, I
guess the better part of about15 plus years or so, and now
that I've kind of switched mycareer over to working as a
(04:27):
therapist, I'm really lovingthis work.
I love working with clients,individuals and couples on their
intimacy issues, issues of sex,issues around gender and all
the other things that just kindof come with life and that can
connect so much with ourrelationships and our
understanding of our bodies andidentities and sexuality.
(04:49):
So it's been a really funjourney so far and I'm really
excited to be here and talk moreabout that.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
I appreciate you joining us for this conversation
.
I think it's an important one.
I definitely want mylistenership to have opportunity
to understand gender better.
I think it's very confusing to alot of people, and this is
going to add clarity andhopefully, by the end of this
conversation, dear listeners,you will understand why it's not
(05:16):
just important for you tounderstand what gender expansive
means for other people's sake.
Expansive means for otherpeople's sake.
It's important for your ownsake and your own understanding
of who you are as a person, ahuman and a sexual being.
And by the end of this episode,my hope is that not only this
conversation will help you bemore accepting and loving of
(05:38):
others, it's also going to helpyou understand yourself better
as a person, as a romanticpartner and as a sexual being.
So stay to the end.
We will give you our takeaways,like we always do, but get
ready to talk about genderexpansive identities.
Cheers, cheers.
So let's just.
(06:00):
Let's start from the top here.
What does gender expansiveactually mean?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, so basically the term gender expansive it can
be kind of an umbrella term toinclude everyone that is outside
of the what we would call thegender binary, meaning like
you're either a man or you're awoman and there's no in between
and there's no variation and anyof those things.
Those are just only the one,two categories you can fall into
(06:29):
.
Gender expansive identities areliterally, with the words,
expanding beyond that, beyondthat strict binary between two
kind of opposites.
So that can mean a lot ofdifferent things under that
umbrella term.
That might include terms folksmight have heard like non-binary
or genderqueer.
(06:50):
Some folks would even considerlike trans women, trans men or
trans feminine identified people, trans masculine identified
people.
Under the umbrella of likegender expansive identities,
you're just falling outside ofthe two kind of boxes that most
of us were taught that You'rejust falling outside of the two
kind of boxes that most of uswere taught that we have to fit
into one theater.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Perhaps an important thing to discuss here too is
what is the difference betweengender and sex, because I think
that's where people get confused.
Can you help my listenerunderstand the difference?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
This is something that does getreally confusing.
So sex usually refers to, like,medically and biologically,
what parts you have or whatbalance of hormones, things that
are how your body kind ofpresents itself, and what
medically and biologically we'reseeing there.
(07:50):
Granted, sometimes I think thatconcept is used to say, well
see, there's only two genders,because there's just people with
vaginas and people with penises, and that's men and women, and
that's the whole story.
And even within, like the ideaof sex, there's one.
There's people born with what'scalled sometimes we call
(08:11):
intersex or differences ofsexual development, meaning that
it is not entirely black orwhite or clear based on their
anatomy or hormones orchromosomes or any number of
other things, but that wouldfall under the category of sex.
We're talking about gender.
You'll hear people say genderis a social construct and, yes,
(08:35):
in a lot of ways that's whatdifferentiates it.
Gender is how you presentyourself to what you want, to
how you want to be perceived asfar as whether it's being
perceived and presenting as aman or a woman or a non-binary
person or something else in kindof the gender expansive
universe.
And gender really is soculturally bound, right, like we
(08:58):
think of what is consideredmen's clothes and women's
clothes, really based on ourculture and other cultures that
might be entirely different.
So gender expression and genderidentity are things that are a
lot more kind of how peopleperceive and how people present
themselves versus the actualphysical body they were born in
(09:19):
and the variations they're inthe variations they're in.
So it's the expression of yourgender is the expression of what
you identify as right, yeah,yeah, and how you would hope and
want people around you toperceive you as.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Correct and what you are saying is that between the
binary that we've been taught,man and woman, between when
you're younger, maybe there areboys and girls at school and as
(10:13):
they develop.
A boy might be teased aboutbeing girly or a girl might be
teased about looking like a boy.
It's like it's a difference intheir gender expression correct
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And gender, I mean I guess a gender expression
doesn't always necessarily haveto be congruent with gender
identity.
I mean, a really great exampleof this might be like we think
of a static, the late princethere was a lot of those prints
expressed himself that was moretypically feminine, but it was
also very clear, to the best ofmy knowledge, that he'd always
(10:52):
identified very firmly as, likea man.
That that was just because heexpressed himself in ways that
were maybe a little genderbending or considered more
feminine in our culture, didn'tnecessarily mean that he
identified outside of being maleagain, as far as I know.
Or like David Bowie is anothergood example.
We can come up with these allday Same.
On the other side, like youmight have a woman who
(11:15):
identifies as a woman andthere's kind of no question she
has, but she dresses more andpresents more typically in our
culture male, maybe shorter hair, wearing a suit instead of a
dress.
So the gender expression isn'tjust for, like, trans people or
non-binary people.
Like we all have genderexpression right, I'm wearing
makeup today.
That's part of my genderexpression as a woman, as a
(11:37):
cisgender female, and noteveryone wears makeup, but I
like to because it kind ofaffirms the way that I feel.
So that's really genderexpression.
Gender identity is okay.
I like to think of it as likewhen you're in the shower,
you've got no makeup, you've gotno clothes, you're just alone.
Like what gender are you?
What do you feel like in yourheart and your soul?
(11:59):
That you are and that's yourgender identity.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Okay, so what is the number one thing people get
wrong about gender?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think honestly that I mean the number
one thing I hear today is justthis idea that there are only
two genders, immutable fromhilariously conception, which is
?
Anyone who knows biology knowsthat at conception we're
actually technically all female,but that's you know.
Google it if you're sure whatthat's about.
(12:29):
But yeah, this idea thatthere's this natural quote,
unquote gender binary and peoplewho identify outside of that
are delusional or like it's justnot true or something's wrong.
And even if you strip away allthese notions of what you feel
like or what your genderidentity is in your heart, just
(12:50):
biologically there is not a neat, clean definition of gender at
all.
Not only are there differencesof sexual development that
happen in like a roughly 1% ofthe population, which is the
same amount of people as thereare redheads, so it's rare, but
it's not that rare we, which isthe same amount of people as
there are redheads, so it's rare, but it's not that rare.
(13:12):
We're still talking aboutmillions of people who are born
with either genitalia thataren't typically like male or
female, but born withchromosomes that are neither XX
nor XY, who are born withconditions that affect how their
hormones are, so you might havesomeone who grows a beard but
has a vagina and breasts, andthat is how they were born.
You know these intersex kind ofconditions.
(13:34):
So, just in the face of it,even if you get away all this
good with the quote-unquotegender ideology, it's like there
is not one biologicaldefinition of gender.
It's like there is not onebiological definition of gender.
There just is not.
And then if we expand outsideof things that maybe even
(13:58):
science doesn't quite fullyunderstand yet, the idea of,
okay, changes in fashion,changes in roles that people can
have, and that's nothing reallythat new.
It's never been that simple.
As man, woman, when you're born, we know what it is and that's
the end of the story.
And I think that's the biggestmisconception is one that this
(14:19):
is new.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And two, that this is some sort of immutable
scientific fact, because it'sjust not Well.
And not to mention that wedon't actually know the number
of people who don't adherebiologically to what people are
saying as man and woman, becauseyou don't always get your
hormones checked, you don'talways get your chromosomes
checked, and one thing I didfolks interview an intersex
(14:46):
person and one thing that theypointed out was that some people
aren't even discovered to beintersex until after they pass
and there's an autopsy and thenthey recognize oh, their
reproductive organs weren't whatwe thought they were.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
And then they recognize oh, their reproductive
organs weren't what we thoughtthey were.
So, yeah, yeah, and it's notuncommon too for people with
vaginas, or like externalgenitalia that appears typically
female, to discover that theyare intersex when they go to try
to get pregnant.
Or in some cases it'sdiscovering that there's
internal testes, because oftenthose can become cancer and
(15:28):
that's something that can affectpeople's health.
So, yeah, and you're right,it's absolutely not as if when
you're born, they get all of thedata about what, all the
different things that areassociated with gender.
We use terms people may haveheard of like assigned female at
birth or assigned male at birth.
That's because that's how theydo it.
The baby comes out, they seetheir genitalia and you kind of
(15:52):
go from there.
It's not like you'renecessarily chronotyped or
having hormone levels checked orall these different things, and
that might be well and good foran infant at the time, but it's
the end of the story and it'snot even all of the information
that might go into one's evenbiologicals.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So, to go back, over that, because I do use that
often assigned to female birth.
You might also hear it statedAFAB or AMAB, which is assigned
male at birth, and that justmeans after the child comes out
and you're, or maybe even beforeyou, take a look at them and
they're like here's what webelieve you to be, right?
(16:28):
Yeah, Looking at your body,right?
So just to clear up thoseterminology or terms for my
listeners who may not befamiliar with them how do you
think gender norms, meaning thebelief that it's just man and
woman, it's just him and her,screw all of us up, Even the
(16:50):
straight men in my comments whoget angry when I talk about
penis owners and vulva owners.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, oh gosh, that's like there are a lot of ways
that that kind of hurts everyone.
No-transcript.
(17:32):
We associate that withoppression of women and
minorities, because it is, andit also like robs men of the
chance to not just explore thequote-unquote feminine side but
just decide for themselves howthey want to feel.
Like a man, like what's manlyto you doesn't have to be what
(17:53):
you know is stereotypicallythought of and that might really
not resonate with a lot of men,and I mean I'm probably the
same as you in that.
I've certainly talked to plentyof like cisgender, meaning that
they identify with the gender oftheir birth.
They've never questioned it.
Cisgender straight men who evenmight have some more
traditional kind of beliefs, andthere's always something that
(18:16):
doesn't quite fit for them inthe strict rules around gender
roles and that hurts them justas much as it it hurts anyone
else who doesn't feel like, okay, this isn't quite right for me
Limits opportunities in life tohave wonderful experiences and
to learn about yourself.
So, yeah, I think the morerestrictive we get in these
(18:38):
gender roles and gender binaries, it just a lot of missed
opportunities for things outsideof that that can be really
wonderful and beautiful thateveryone can benefit from.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right.
I think a good example is a lotof cis men believe that if they
show too much emotion or theyaccess their feelings, or they
cry, or they allow themselves toget close to a woman and
express love and compassion thatthat's not manly.
(19:10):
And so their needs, theiremotional needs, go unmet right.
They can't get the connectionthat they need or they want.
That's just like an obvious way.
But I think also another thingto speak to here is it can also
be divisive between father andson or brothers or whatever it
(19:37):
is.
If you are so narrow minded inyour idea of what it means to be
a man and what that looks like,and then you have a child who
comes into being and maybe theydon't fit that, your son doesn't
fit that mold but stillidentifies as being a boy and
(20:01):
then the father's browbe beatinghim.
You've got to go and want tohunt and fish and don't cry.
And I also want to say we talk alot about the loneliness
epidemic I'd love to hear youspeak to that and gender norms,
because I don't think women arethe problem with men
experiencing the lonelinessepidemic.
(20:25):
I think that our society'sdefinition of what it is to be a
man is the problem, because menare not socialized or raised to
create connections with othermen, to bond and create
community.
That has typically been quote awoman's job.
(20:47):
So women, we aren't lonelybecause we know how to connect
with other women.
We know how to create a tribeRight and have that emotional
support.
We hug each other.
My girlfriends stay the nightand we like, hold each other and
have sleepovers.
But men are told you can't dothat or you're gay.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I would like could you speak to how these gender
norms are at the source of themen's loneliness epidemic?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah Now, and as a therapist like I see this all
the time with I mean with a lotof men, but in particular
millennials, gen X, boomers,where it's this idea that being
emotionally vulnerable isweakness and that if you need
anyone, that's bad and so likeyou can't.
(21:40):
How can you have closefriendships or relationships or
community without at least somelevel of vulnerability, like
letting people know who you areor seeing what's actually going
on in your life underneath thesurface, and so the more like
men are socialized to not nothave needs, to do everything on
their own which nobody can right, and to also, and not only just
(22:03):
to not have needs but to nothave emotions, to not need
support from other people and tolike that closeness is somehow
it's almost like oh, it'ssomehow like gay to have
close-nail friends, which is no,it's gay.
To be attracted to men, that'swhat gayness is.
And somehow like gay to haveclose-nail friends, which is no,
it's gay.
To be attracted to men, that'swhat gayness is, and to want to
have relationships with them.
Like that, having closefriendships should be universal.
(22:25):
I think I get a great example ofthis.
You were talking about how youhave your girlfriends over and
it's no big deal to sleep overand sleep all night and, like
most of them I know, are notlike in group having sleepovers
with their friends and thenwondering, oh, does this mean
I'm a lesbian?
Maybe they're wondering thatbecause they were attracted to
their female friends, in whichcase cool.
But I mean every man I don'tknow any man that I can think of
(22:50):
who is like straight, who wouldsleep in the same king size bed
with a friend.
If they only had, if there wasonly one hotel room open, like
one guy would be suffering onthe floor because why and I mean
, okay, that's your preferenceif you want to sleep in the bed
of someone else, but it's sortof these things that become
silly, like you're so afraid ofcloseness with someone of the
(23:12):
same gender and that it mustmean you're either too feminine
or you're too gay, which thingswhich are not inherently bad,
but we're told they're bad.
If you're a man, you're notsupposed to go in that direction
, and I think that hurts them alot.
It makes them really lonely.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So can gender identity evolveover time, or is it a set thing?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It can definitely evolve over time.
I mean, for some folks it isset and they don't really ever
question it.
I mean myself as a cisgenderwoman.
I, for whatever reason in mybiology and psychology I've
never really questioned I feelcomfortable as a woman, with all
the disadvantages it still maybring.
I don't feel like that'sdisconcordant.
(23:58):
Others might feel really earlyon that they are kind of in the
wrong body, that people aremisgendering them from a very
early age.
Their understanding of whatthat means might be different
depending on any number offactors.
But there are some trans folksthat from like their earliest
memories remember like justbeing drawn to the gender that
(24:21):
they weren't assigned kind oftoys or ways of dressing or
whatever.
And then it's really consistentand they just sort of know
something is off.
They get, they understand aword for it at some point.
Okay, there's a thing calledbeing trans.
Usually it's okay, that is whatI am, and for other people it's
not that clear.
It might be something thatcomes up at any kind of point in
(24:43):
their life that they'restarting to notice.
Okay, the way that maybe I'mexpressing myself or the way
that people perceive me doesn'tquite feel right or doesn't
really align with my values andbeliefs and what does, and that
can be something that somepeople never kind of settle,
like okay, this is what I'mgoing to be till the end of time
(25:04):
.
And that might be people thatfeel like they're more gender
fluid or non-binary, becausethey just want to opt out of the
idea of the gender binaryaltogether.
It's sort of like, okay,instead of choosing which
football team you're going toplay on, you're not in the
stadium.
You're just like, no, I'm notinto football, so everyone else
can go play, that's fine, butI'm going to go do something
else, yeah, and so that's.
(25:25):
It's definitely not something Ithink is ever set, in the same
way that our sexual orientationscan sometimes be like,
completely clear to us from thevery beginning and never shift,
and for other people thingsmight be a little bit more fluid
and like all those things Ithink are just as fine and valid
(25:45):
as anything.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Can you clearly explain what gender fluidity is?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, good question.
So people who identify asgender fluid basically are
saying that they do not identifyas the same gender or vice
versa, the male they mightidentify as not binary but sort
(26:17):
of feeling like their expressionor their kind of sense of of
internal gender identity shifts.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat it's like bouncing back and
forth between two binaries ofman and woman.
For some people it might feelthat way, but for others it
might just kind of be more oflike okay, it's a there's like
(26:37):
feminine vibe times and malevibe time and or just something
all together outside of thebinary that maybe we don't quite
have the language for.
But the idea of the fluid isthat it's they don't feel like
it's set still right now.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Not all people know right off the bat, or are
willing to know right off thebat, that they don't identify as
the gender they've beenassigned, and sometimes,
(27:18):
especially for older generations.
Now, I think Gen Z is a lotmore on top of this, but there
are millennials, gen Xers even,who are just now realizing oh, I
don't really identify as female, I think maybe I'm non-binary
or whatever it might be.
Yeah, or whatever it might be,yeah.
What would you say to thepeople around them who love them
(27:42):
and then find out that they'requestioning that?
How could they react to that?
To be as supportive as possible, even if they might be a little
bit like the guy in my commentssection who's like yeah, not is
like it's only man and a woman.
(28:02):
Quit using that other language,because that man might someday
have someone he loves come outand say I don't think I am a
woman or a man and say I don'tthink I am a woman or a man.
What are some things you can doin that moment?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
even if it's something you don't fully
understand.
What an absolutely greatquestion One, I mean.
I think the number one thing isto listen to the person.
You can ask questions, but alsorespect that some questions
might be too personal, forexample, depending on how close
the relationship is like.
Don't ask someone about whatthey may or may not want to do
with their genitals, like youwouldn't ask anyone else that
(28:44):
unless you were very, very closewith them.
So same thing here.
But also it's really just aboutnot making assumptions and
being like patient and justtalking to the person and seeing
what they need.
And a lot for a lot of people,especially if the person telling
them that they feel like theymight be trans or non-binary or
(29:07):
gender fluid if it's, say, afamily member or someone that's
very close, they've known for areally long time there can be a
real like kind of mourningperiod where they're kind of
mourning the loss of the versionof that person that they've
known for however many years.
So it's a very real thing andit doesn't necessarily mean that
(29:30):
you're being transphobic or notaccepting it's a big change and
all change involves some levelof grief, even if it's change
for the better.
Especially like to parents,recognize that it's okay to
grieve the loss of the genderversion of the child that you
had and to also, at the sametime, be open and embrace, like
(29:52):
who they're becoming and people.
Contrary to a lot of themessages in the media, a lot of
people do want to take a lot oftime and really explore and
experiment with things and learnabout themselves and at the end
of that journey they may circleback to being like cisgender
and identifying gender resent atbirth.
(30:14):
They may not.
There may be something else,but you know.
So that's all valid and theagenda is not to be like, okay,
if you have these feelings, youhave to immediately go get a
surgery and get a hormone.
Like no, not at all, it mightbe a really healthy especially
for younger people type ofexperimentation that we all do
to understand kind of who we arein the world.
(30:35):
So that just because someone'squestioning doesn't mean that
there's a foregone conclusionone way or another.
And to be patient and likeopen-minded with that.
Yeah, try being curious yeahwhat is?
Speaker 1 (30:48):
that.
What does that feel like foryou?
You know what does that meanabsolutely?
What are you feeling?
Approaching things withcuriosity, especially when I
think it's normal to feel fearwhen something that is foreign
to you or steps outside of yourquote belief system is presented
(31:09):
.
But if you can take a moment tobe curious, instead of angry or
hateful or shutting your minddown like what is the harm
that's going to come from that,yeah, absolutely, and I'll share
that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
One of my siblings is trans and non-binary and this
is just my experience.
When they came out, it was sortof like this wonderful moment
and we were like, oh, that makessense.
They were someone that is orwas assigned female at birth.
We would probably describe themas like a tomboy growing up,
(31:48):
and when they finally came outas non-binary it was almost like
, oh, this is more of theirauthentic identity, that like
we're all missing and didn'thave the language for at the
time and at least for me,watching kind of their
transition, both socially andmedically, was so much.
Oh, this is the same personI've always known.
(32:11):
I'm just really glad they're ina time and a place when they can
be kind of the most them thatthey can be, that they're their
own most authentic self and thatthey're perceived by the world
the way that they want to be.
They can dress and look the waythat feels best to them and at
the end of the day, even ifsomeone thinks that there's
(32:31):
something morally wrong withthat, it's like you know what my
sibling does every day.
There's something morally wrongwith that.
It's like you know what mysibling does every day.
They get up, they walk the dog,they say goodbye to their
partner and they go to work andthey come home and they buy
groceries.
And they're not here to convertanyone or to bother anyone.
They're just existing in theworld the way that they feel
(32:52):
most authentic and mostcomfortable, and I think that
they're certainly a less anxious, better person for that,
because they can be comfortablein their own skin.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Well, and let's talk about gender affirming care.
You spoke about people's firstquestions being what are you
going to do with your genitals?
Are you going to get topsurgery?
But the same people who arefreaked out by that are okay
with women cutting open theirboobs and adding size in.
(33:25):
That's gender affirming care.
That's a woman feeling morefeminine, more womanly by adding
size to her boobs, becausethat's again what society has
said makes a woman womanly.
Liposuction to make her stomachflat, the PBLs to make that
(33:46):
booty round, I mean, and samefor men, right?
That's all gender affirmingcare and you're okay with that.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
It's all gender affirming care and you're okay
with that.
Yeah, yeah, now this is.
That is definitely a reallygood point and something you say
all the time is like one, and Ilove the like oh, I'm against
pronouns.
Like we all have pronouns, it'sjust a feature of our language
and like and gender affirmingmedical care is for everyone,
not just trans folks ornon-binary folks.
(34:18):
Like exactly what you said.
And the idea of like genderexpression is also something we
all do.
Like we all express what genderwe feel like.
We are in different ways andthat can even vary widely
between people who do identifyas a man or a woman.
There's not one version ofthose things that would be so
boring if there was, but it'slike the slap the word trans on
(34:42):
it and all of a sudden peoplereally start to freak out and I
think it's honestly.
It's a lot of fear mongeringover a very small percentage of
the population is reallyessentially not doing anything
that different from what many ofpeople do To feel, like I said,
more feminine, more masculine,in a way that feels right to
them.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right.
So getting back to pronouns,what would you say to the guy
talking to out there who is soadamant about pronouns and the
use of pronouns being a certainway him and her and nothing in
(35:27):
between?
What would you say to thatperson?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
yeah, there's a lot of things I would say.
One is I would say like, nomatter what your beliefs are,
when you don't use someone'spreferred pronouns or the
pronouns that they use, it'sjust disrespect that, regardless
of what you believe, you needto know that you're
communicating to that person.
I don't respect you and I'mgoing to use words to describe
(35:58):
you that you have specificallytold me not to, and I think we
can all relate to how that wouldfeel bad, even if, let's say,
you're a woman that got marriedand changed your last name
because you wanted to.
If someone who is like I, don'tbelieve in marriage, I don't
think women should take theirhusband's last name.
It's patriarchal and this andthat I'm just going to keep
calling you your maiden name.
(36:19):
That would be reallydisrespectful, even if they
sincerely held that belief.
And so it goes both ways, right?
Regardless of what you believe,it's about showing the other
person respect, and for peoplethat say, okay, well, you know,
they them is grammaticallyincorrect.
The literal dictionary hastweeted I think that it's not
(36:40):
grammatically incorrect, sothey're losing on that battle.
And it's not about grammar,right?
It's hard to learn new thingsand to feel like you might mess
them up and someone might be mador offended.
I get it.
When I was trying to remembermy siblings' new pronouns, it
took me three years to stopmaking mistakes.
It takes practice and that'sokay.
(37:00):
I think the vast majority offolks that have pronouns that
you wouldn't naturally want touse for them understand that
people are not going to beperfect and that we're kind of.
You know.
We're conditioned to usepronouns for people that present
a certain way.
It's okay to make mistakes,just be respectful.
It's just about like basicrespect.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, you're being a bully.
I mean, if you're okay withthat, if that's who you want to
be in this world and in thislife, certainly that's your
choice, but it's bullying.
And that brings me to what isthe emotional toll of being
misgendered over and over andover again.
And how can we betterunderstand that pain that these
(37:48):
people, these folks, areexperiencing?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, I would say for someone that maybe feels like
they're not quite sure why thisis a big deal.
Imagine if, everywhere you went, everyone misgendered you, that
mistook you for the gender thatyou're not, if you're a man,
and if, everywhere you went,people are like oh excuse me,
(38:12):
ma'am All right, she needs helpover here referring to you.
Like imagine how that wouldbother you to constantly be like
I hear people doing this, don'tI look like a man.
I want to be perceived as a man.
I need to correct people overand over again.
This is disrespectful, all thosethings you might feel, and if
(38:33):
that's not fine, you can imagine.
It's just sort of imagine likesomebody if you were somewhere
and people kept using your wrongname or mispronouncing your
name constantly or anything elsethat is just infused in our
daily lives and our speech andcommunicating with each other.
It's like it can be like kindof like a little paper cut each
time, a reminder that eitheryou're being disrespected by the
(38:55):
people around you who you mightjust be interacting with
throughout the course of yourday you have no choice to
interact with them or be thatyou're reminded that you're not
being perceived in the way thatyou really want to be, and that
can be so painful, especiallywhen it happens over and over
again, and so I think that'sreally the importance of doing
(39:16):
our best with respectingpeople's pronouns, because it is
like a death by a thousand cutsfor a lot of folks and that
adds a lot of stress and anxietyto their day.
That's not necessarily helpinganyone.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Right, do you really want to be that person?
I'm like, do you really want tobe that person?
And I want to say I had thisreally recently, this really
beautiful moment where a transperson reached out to me and
thanked me for doing my best toalways use inclusive language
and expressed how it made adifference for them and it gave
(40:09):
them the opportunity toparticipate in the conversation
and learn the things they neededto learn and trans non-binary
people to exist right now inthis country, in this time when
it's so dangerous and they'rebeing treated so horribly by our
(40:30):
own government, right and forme to do even a tiny bit to
create some sort of safe space,some acknowledgement of their
existence and their humanity,like just by using words.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
It's so simple, absolutely absolutely.
And it it signals that, likeyou're, I mean a safe person in
the sense that one I mean.
The reality is a lot like transfolks or like anyone kind of an
lgbtq identity has a legitimatefear of violence in a lot of
situations that, like straightor cis people just aren't going
(41:14):
to think about because we don'thave to experience that, and so
I think that communicating thatjust hey, I'm not going to say
something overtly hurtful, I'mnot going to try to beat you up,
I'm not going to fire you fromyour job, I'm not going to
whatever it is is reallypowerful, right, and it doesn't
take a lot of work.
(41:34):
It takes a little bit of okay,I'm going to sort of retrain how
I phrase some things, but notthat big of a deal at the end of
the day.
And I think you know, like ifsomeone, let's say, if you were
one of the only people who was aChristian in your town, that
everyone else followed someother religion and went to a
different temple or a differentplace, and if every time someone
(41:57):
talked about religion and howimportant it was, or faith, they
never referred to Christianityor they never acknowledged your
holidays or they never put thatup, like eventually you really
start to feel isolated and thenadd in what if there was a bunch
of rhetoric saying it's wrongto be Christian and these people
should are sick in the head andI'm not going to respect if
(42:18):
someone wears a cross, I'm notgoing to let them into my
establishment, like you couldimagine.
It's like that.
And look, these are things thathave happened in places in the
world, whereas it's notsomething that is fictitious and
like that would be awful andthat would be unfair and that's
not the kind of world I wouldwant to live in.
And so, when it comes to transand non-binary, like respecting
(42:40):
those rights, like again, it'slike you don't have to alter
your beliefs but you shouldtreat everyone with respect,
because that's what you wouldwant for yourself and isn't,
like the golden rule, somethingmaybe we all can think about a
little bit more these days.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, I'll tell you.
what I have done is I've juststarted using they, them for
everybody and it's been reallynice for me because what I've
also found is when people knowthat the gender of the person
I'm hanging out with or spendingtime with, they'll make
assumptions.
When I use they them, theydon't know the gender.
(43:16):
They'll make assumptions.
When I use they them, theydon't know the gender.
They can't make assumptions,you know.
Yeah, it's so true.
I love using that in theworkspace, I love using that in
my personal space and it reallyit works.
It works well and it's a quickway to learn to and include
everyone.
So if there is someone rightnow who is looking to explore
(43:40):
their gender for the first time,what are some things they
should know and what can helpthem on their journey?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah well, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, if
they're in California, they canlook at gender wellness.
We have several very goodtherapists who have a lot of
experience in this.
That can kind of help justexplore and answer questions and
guide people through theprocess of understanding their
gender identity or transitioning, if that's what they decide to
do.
But outside of therapy, which,of course, I'm biased towards, I
(44:11):
would say getting out into thecommunity can be so helpful, and
that can also be online.
There's a lot of great onlinecommunities.
But ideally, if you're in aplace where there's LGBTQ events
or communities or they'retrans-specific or just kind of
queer gatherings generally, thatcan be a great place to explore
(44:33):
, to talk to other people whomay have gone through the same
things, to try presenting adifferent way in an environment
where it is safe and that, if itdoesn't feel right for you,
it's like it's okay.
Most of the people there aregoing to know what that's like
and then that's really importantand almost can't be replaced by
anything else.
There's a lot of greatresources in books and things
(44:53):
like that.
That can be very helpful, butat the end of the day, I think
it's like reaching out andconnecting to other people who
have gone through what you mightbe going through and are either
on the other side of it or alsogoing through it at the same
time.
Out of the isolation that oftenyou can feel we're going
(45:18):
through hard things or afraidthat we're going to be
discriminated against if we talkabout what we're thinking
that's getting us place.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
And what are some micro moments of gender
affirmation that can have a bigimpact on someone's day?
So for a parent who's justfound out that their child
thinks they might be non-binaryor trans, or even if you're just
a friend or a sibling orwhatever, what are some micro
(45:47):
moments you can make sure happenin your loved one's day that
can make a big difference?
Speaker 2 (45:55):
I would say one thing right off the top of my head
that I know I'm personallyworking on doing more for myself
is when I introduce myself tonew people, I generally just say
my pronouns to normalize it.
I know most people are going tosee me and assume she, her, and
they're correct.
I, she, her are my pronouns.
But I had this experience alittle while ago with my sibling
who's.
I had this experience a littlewhile ago with my sibling who's,
(46:17):
now in binary at a gatheringwhere we didn't know most of the
people there and it was almostlike they had to.
It was this awkward okay,people are misgendering them,
but then you just met them.
Do you want to be like?
Oh, actually, my pronouns arethis.
It's almost like coming out andmaking it a thing when we're
just making chit chat at a party, like nobody is necessarily
(46:38):
wanting to talk about genderidentity or their gender.
You know it's just introducingyourself.
So I think for me, like to,because it's low stakes, right,
I'm not going to likely bemisgendered.
I can say hi, I'm Kate, she,her are my pronouns, and then if
someone around me has pronounsthat people are not, naturally
going to think oh, okay, thoseare the pronouns, I think go
(47:00):
with that person, they mightfeel a lot safer and kind of
have permission, or they have anally to back them up, to be
like oh hi, I'm, you knowso-and-so, I go by, they, them,
or he, him or whatever it is forthem.
Just normalizing that is likejust a thing that doesn't have
to be a big deal and thatdoesn't even have to be a whole
(47:22):
discussion.
It's just letting people knowlike the same thing is kind of
like your name, like this isjust how I want you to refer to
me.
So I think that's a big thing.
And also, I think just likecommunicating that you love and
support them, without alsofocusing so much on the gender
identity and forgetting that,like they're whole people with
the rest, their whole otherlives going on and a lot of
(47:43):
times nothing to do with genderidentity.
That's just one aspect of theirlives.
So like acknowledging it butnot centering it so much that it
feels like that's the onlything that you see right, you
can see them as a whole person.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Are there any last things?
You want to leave my listenerswith Any last pieces of advice,
things you think they reallyneed to know or that will help
them understand the idea ofgender being more than this
binary more than this binary.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
yeah, it's part of me honestly really wants to like
speak to kind of all the thehaters out there at the same
time.
I don't know that I'm you know,me like a liberal who is a
therapist or for transgenderpeople in Los Angeles is gonna
convince anyone.
So I'm not sure I'll go downthat road, although, believe me,
it's tempting, because I havearguments with my computer and
my TV about this stuff all day.
So I think what I will leavewith is that you know if you are
(48:49):
someone that is feeling unsureabout your gender identity or
you're feeling really sure, butthe pathway there is really
scary and difficult and maybefeels like it's impossible, but
right now, these times can makepeople feel like to make a
choice one way or another.
Right now you have to justdecide.
So you know like what teamyou're on, and I just encourage
(49:12):
those folks to slow down.
There's no rush.
If you're absolutely sure, jumpin and do what is right for you
.
If you're not sure, that's alsookay.
And this idea that the peopleare rushing and making rash
decisions, I think a lot oftimes actually makes people feel
like they need to do that andthat's, you know, with any big
(49:33):
shift.
It's like take your time,listen to yourself, find
community, talk to a therapist,talk to someone else who's gone
through it, and give yourselfthat space to just be curious
about yourself and then, nomatter what the outcome, you'll
know yourself better andprobably just be a more
reflective, humble person in theworld.
(49:56):
And couldn't we use more ofthat these days?
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, I love that, and I think I would like to sum
this up with I do have a coupleand out of all of the people
that listen and comment, it istruly only a couple of cis men
at least that's how they'representing themselves who come
to my comments to make angrycomments every time I use a
(50:21):
language that is inclusive, andwhat I want to say is I know
that you keep coming back to mycontent because there's
something that you want to getout of it, and I create content
for every person because I thinkeveryone benefits from learning
more about their sexuality,their sex life, intimacy, how to
(50:44):
connect with and love eachother, which is really what it
all comes down to.
And I honor cis men, I honor ciswomen, I honor trans people and
I just encourage you keepcoming back.
I know it makes you angry whenI talk about penis owners and
vulva owners and AFAB people andAMAB people, but keep coming
(51:05):
back, even if it makes you angry, because I think what you'll
find is, the more that youlisten, the more you hear that
your brain is, your mind isgoing to open itself, whether
you want it to or not, and amore inclusive world is going to
be a better world in the end.
So thank you for taking time tohelp my listeners understand
this a little bit more.
(51:26):
I know that it's confusing.
We have not been taught thisstuff.
We're having to unlearn, whichis much harder in some cases
than learning, and then we'rehaving to relearn.
It's scary, it's frustrating,it's confusing, I get it, but
it's a work worth doing.
I would love it if you couldtell my listeners and viewers
(51:47):
where they can find out moreabout you.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, well, first place to go is gender wellness
website, which is genwellorg.
You can also find us onInstagram and actually let me
make sure that I'm giving youthe right handle.
So we are at gender wellness LAall one word on Instagram and
(52:10):
socials, and so you can see Ihave a little bit of content on
there.
I'm not the best at I'm anelder millennials.
I'm not used to making all thevideos and stuff, but I'm
getting better at it.
I give little self-care tipsand other fun things like that,
hoping to do more kind ofeducational things around there.
But yeah, you can learn aboutme at genderwell or genwellorg,
(52:33):
our website, or on Instagram and, my sorry, I can cut that out
of my Instagram handle, but I'lljust stick to.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Jeff Gwalt as well.
Perfect, perfect, all rightguys.
And if you have any questions,comments about this topic and
you are on my YouTube channel,which is at TalkSex with Annette
, you can drop it right into thecomments section below the
video.
You can also email me atAnnette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom
.
You can scroll down to the linkin the description of this
(53:03):
podcast and send me a voice noteon my speak pipe as well.
There's lots of ways to getyour comments to me and I will
do the best I can to get thosequestions answered.
If you're looking for asidekick in your intimacy
journey, a cheerleader, if youwill, I have my books open right
now for intimacy coaching andyou can find out more about that
(53:24):
at TalkSexWithAnettecom.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
I appreciate all theinformation you've shared.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
It's been awesome to be here here.
I love talking about the sexand I look forward to hopefully
talking to you again soon.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Perfect and to my listeners until next time I'll
see you in the locker room.
Cheers ring loop.
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