June 11, 2025 • 49 mins
You thought dating women would be easier? Think again.
This Pride Month, I’m pulling back the sheets on what it really looks like when women date women. Spoiler alert: it’s not just soft touches, flannel, and U-Hauls. There’s bi-phobia, late-in-life confusion, misread signals, and emotional landmines no one warned us about. But there’s also unmatched heat, intimacy, and magic—when you know what you’re doing.
In this collab episode, I’m joined by Dr. Frankie Bashan, clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and queer matchmaker extraordinaire. Together, we explore why queer femme/sapphic dating can feel so confusing, how trauma and gender roles sneak into our relationships, and what actually builds real, healthy connection—without losing the spark.
Whether you’re queer, questioning, or just curious about what it’s like when two women fall (and sometimes crash) into love, this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do the sex?
I'm Annette Benedetti, host ofthe podcast formerly known as
Locker Room Talkin' Shots.
The show has a new name TalkSex with Annette, but at its
core, this is still your lockerroom.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink dating,pleasure and desire Around here
(00:22):
, nothing's off limits.
Pleasure and desire Around here, nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
you're new, welcome to mypodcast, where desire meets
(00:43):
disruption and pleasure becomespower.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is queer dating.
How does it look different thanyou might see it in the
(01:03):
heterosexual world?
It is Pride Month and y'allknow I'm queer and I've been
dating.
It's been interesting and I amvery excited today to like drill
down into what dating lookslike as a queer woman.
In my case, I'm queer by pan.
(01:26):
I pretty much am attracted toeverybody, but a lot of the time
dating is seen through the lensof heteronormative society and
so when those of us who mightdiscover we are queer later in
life especially discover we arequeer later in life especially
(01:49):
and we want to start meetingpeople, it's like there is no
guidebook and it is not like itwas when we were just dating the
opposite sex, and the struggleis real.
I think that's what you'll hearacross the board.
Well, it doesn't have to be asdifficult anymore.
You are not alone.
I have an expert here, if youwill, on dating as a queer
(02:10):
person.
Today, I am joined by theincredible Dr Frankie Bichon, a
licensed clinical psychologist,board-certified sex therapist
and the powerhouse behind LittleGay Book and Little Black Book
matchmaking.
She spent over two decadeshelping people find love, build
intimacy and get real abouttheir desires.
We are going to break down whatdating as a queer person looks
(02:34):
like, some of the commonchallenges and how to navigate
them and possibly, hopefully,find love.
But before we dive in, I wantto remind you that I am over on
OnlyFans and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos,
demonstrations and audio guidedself-pleasure meditations, all
designed to help you starthaving better sex and intimacy
(02:55):
with someone else or yourself,starting tonight.
You can also find me over onSubstack doing the same and so
much more, and you can find mein both places with my handle at
TalkSexWithAnnette but luckyyou.
If you scroll down to thedescription in this episode,
you're going to find links toeverywhere you could possibly
want to find me there, but fornow let's dive into dating as a
(03:16):
queer person.
Frankie, can you tell mylisteners just a little bit more
about you?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Sure.
First of all, I want to thankyou, annette, for having me on
Excited to be here.
More about me I'm originallyfrom Manhattan, so that I think
I have a very much an East Coastvibe about me that I haven't
lost.
I've been in California now,for you know, like 25 years.
I moved out here to get mydoctorate in clinical psychology
to Berkeley.
I'm a mom.
I've got twins boy-girl twinsthat are 20 years old.
(03:45):
Can't believe that I don't feelmuch older than 28 myself.
How in the world do you knowwhat I mean?
Did I have kids that are now 20?
And I just I love my career.
I feel so blessed and I'm happyto talk all about it with you
today.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
All right, guys.
So you're gonna stay to the endBecause, well, if you're
straight, you're just going towant to know what we're doing
over here on the other side ofdating, because it's fun and
sexy.
If you are queer and I knowthere are so many of you out
there who are we're going tohelp you figure out how to do
this shit, because I'm still ata loss.
So by the end of this podcast,you're going to know exactly
(04:21):
what you need to do to find love.
All right, maybe that's anoverstatement, but you're going
to be a little bit closer tohaving some tips on how to
navigate, getting out there anddating and finding the partner
you want to find.
So let's dive in.
Are you ready, frankie?
Let's talk.
First of all, cheers, happypride, happy pride and here's to
(04:43):
finding love someday.
Cheers, I'm gonna put you inthe hot seat.
I recently it was a quickiestarted, uh, dating a woman.
Um, I would call and I feellike this is derogatory and you
can tell me I referred, referredto her as a baby bi, meaning a
(05:07):
woman.
She was a grown woman who hadkind of recently discovered her
queerness and was diving intonavigating that.
And I met her and I was likesometimes baby queers can be
messy, messy, messy and it wasinstantly messy.
But I was also like she's realcute, pretty funny, and dating
(05:34):
women is hard.
Dating as a queer woman is hard, dating as not a lesbian woman
is hard.
And I know I also run retreatsfor bi and queer women and we
all talk about the samedifficulty.
How do you know when someone,if you are looking at dating
someone who is the same sex asyou, same gender as you, how do
you know if they're queer?
How do you address them andflirt with them?
(05:57):
How do you keep them from goinginto the friend zone?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's like one of the most, yeah, that's like one
of the most popular questions.
But it's tough, right, becauseif you're attracted to more
feminine women, you can't, youdon't, you can't tell if they're
queer.
So I always say, just be directand just be curious, just ask
Are you queer?
I mean, are you part of thequeer community?
(06:24):
No-transcript, right, you look,maybe you know, because people
(06:55):
also ask how do I signify?
What symbols can I wear?
How can I?
Is there something I can?
Can I change the way that Iwalk?
They'll ask us things like that, you know, because they want to
be identifiable to the rightpeople.
So, yeah, I think it's tough,but there are definitely tattoos
are helpful, and I just think,in general, right now it's tough
(07:16):
dating period, whether you'restraight or gay.
But there are clear challengesthat apply to our community.
That have been, they continueto be challenges, and one is
just sheer numbers.
We don't have the same volumeof singles, LGBTQ plus singles,
(07:39):
and then also, on top of that,people have very specific types,
like of women or gay men orwhatever that they're attracted
to, whether it be like where itfalls on the masculinity,
femininity spectrum, genderexpression.
So people can be very specific.
(07:59):
So I use a scale as amatchmaker.
I'll just say on a scale fromone to 10, 10 being high femme,
five being androgynous, onebeing kind of stone butch, very,
very masculine, like one stepbefore transgender.
Where would you say you wouldplace yourself?
Give me a range.
And what about the personyou're attracted to?
(08:20):
Where would they fall?
Give me a range and thenexplain the nuances.
So if somebody is like five toseven, frankie, okay, well, what
does that mean to you?
Five's androgynous?
Seven to me is kind of like,you know, kind of more feminine
but maybe more sporty.
They're not going to be thehigh femme, that's a 10 that you
(08:42):
know has their nails done allthe time and that takes maybe an
hour in front of the mirror toapply makeup, kind of like a JLo
or Beyonce.
So we get nitty gritty about it.
You know and that's reallydifferent than I think
heterosexual matchmakers whatthey experience it's like cis
(09:03):
hetero men.
They want a hot woman, to date,right, but you know, lesbian
women are like I want a womanwho is sporty but feminine.
Or, you know, can beandrogynous but wears men's
underwear, doesn't wear right,doesn't wear lacy brawn
(09:27):
underwear, okay, all right.
Or they can be androgynous, butthey can't carry around a purse
.
You see this like there arecertain specific artifacts or
you know ways of being orpresenting that can be a turn on
or a turn off.
Yeah, that is, that makes itharder.
So specific.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I didn't even realize .
So I'm getting insight justlearning from this and it's
interesting from my perspective.
I like such a wide range of.
I'm attracted to a wide rangeof women.
I don't know that I could naildown one type, but I run into
(10:11):
the problem with myself becauseI think generally I present as a
pretty high femme.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I'm pretty feminine.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, I'm not good at sports.
I will try to go out there andhit a softball, but I'll hate it
.
I'll do it for you.
I'll be a sporty if you want meto.
But I think along with thatalso comes in this assumption
that I'm more submissive, orthat I'm you know, I'm going to
be this softer personality andno, we can't make those
(10:46):
assumptions, I know butches thatare bottoms.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So it's really important to not assume and
actually you want to have aconversation about it, to
understand.
If you're dating somebody, youwant to be curious and ask,
Right, Because if you like adominant butch, you know you'll
want to know before you findyourself in bed with that person
and you're like whoa, we'redefinitely a mismatch.
There are a lot of butches.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That are little softies out there.
They're so soft and sweet andthere is this assumption that,
oh, butch means dominant.
There's a lot of and.
I'm going to say this and youcan correct me if you think I'm
wrong.
I do think there's also a lotof misogyny that carries over
(11:31):
into especially the queer femmedynamic the idea of what roles
are, of what looks are and whatshould be lie beneath them,
right, and so, I think, a lot ofqueer women.
We end up in this place offeeling at odds.
Not only are we at odds withour own sexuality and trying to
figure it out, but then, like,with our own presentation.
You know, I love looking how Ido.
(11:53):
I love I spend I do spend agood amount of time in front of
the mirror in the morning and myself worship altar is what I
call it these days.
Um and but.
Then sometimes that fills inconflict with like.
Then the person that shows upand I can see the confusion in
people who are dating me andthey're like oh, this isn't what
(12:14):
I, the package is not, it's notgiving me what I thought I was
getting into, right, I'll usemyself as an example.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I'm really feminine, but I'm also I have a lot of
masculine energy and I can bevery dominant.
So it sort of just depends.
Sometimes it depends on the day.
Some days I feel more femininethan others.
Sometimes I'll just let youknow I'll put on heels and a
really fitted dress, and otherdays I'm wearing like combat
boots and jean shorts and a tanktop like a wife beater, and you
know.
So there are a lot of.
We just people make assumptionsand we don't.
(12:52):
Most of us humans don't fitinto a perfect box.
There's so there's variability,there's a range, but we want it
to.
We're taught that it should beblack and white, and I think
we're wired that way too, youknow.
So I think we need to be morecurious and not be afraid to ask
questions, because the truth isthat when people want to learn
(13:14):
about you, they're curious aboutyou.
It often feels good, as long asthere's that feeling of safety.
Right, and that's another thingthat's different in dating in
the LGBTQ plus community is thatmany people, especially those
that are coming out later inlife, I wonder how, what your
thoughts are on this Cause we'reseeing more and more of that.
It's it.
(13:35):
Safety's really important, likefeeling like they they're going
to come into it with moreguardedness and fear of like the
unknown or you know, and gowalking into a first date
meeting somebody on a dating app.
It's probably a littledifferent for a straight person
versus a gay person, so that's,off the bat, something to
(13:57):
consider.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah.
So, as I was saying at thebeginning of this, I launched a
nonprofit called Bi WomenEmpowered that primarily served
bi women.
It's now being expanded toserve queer identifying women,
meaning that they're attractedto a variety of genders, pan
women, and a large number ofthese women or femme identifying
(14:22):
people are coming out at anolder age, and so I'm talking
mid-30s to 40s and beyond.
And one thing I want to say andI feel like I re-experienced
recently in a big way and Iwould love to hear your take on
this because it's going to alsofeed into something else that's
(14:44):
happening in the LGBT communityright now is I think that when
women realize that they're queerlater in life, it's usually
coming out of a relationship, abad relationship with a man, a
cis man, and it's instantly likeI'm only going to date women.
That's the last man, eventhough I'm maybe not a lesbian,
(15:05):
or maybe I think I'm a lesbianbecause this sucked so much.
And they're like this is goingto be so much better, Dating
women is going to be so muchbetter and so much easier.
And in my experience and in myfriends, like largely in my
community's experience, I thinkthe thing that we're all afraid
to say but I think is importantto address is that it is in fact
(15:26):
not easier and there are thingsthat dating women you don't
have to worry about that.
You do dating men.
And it's like I just don't feelworried for my safety when I go
out on a date with a woman likeI do with a man.
A man is much more likely tooverpower me and harm me.
Right, we know the risk factorgoes up there in physical safety
(15:49):
.
But I would say this when itcomes to emotional safety and
how we all treat each other, donot think that you're going to
go into dating women and they'regoing to be any more
emotionally safe or treating youbetter unless they've done
their work just like men, right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
In fact, they have more emotional challenges, I
think because there's moretrauma.
One in three women I thinkthat's statistic.
I haven't looked recently, itmight have changed have been
sexually assaulted.
That right there will tell youthat if somebody that you're
considering dating hasn't donethe work, any internal work
(16:31):
right, there's just a higherlikelihood of interpersonal
challenges, attachmentchallenges, communication
challenges, worthiness, shame.
I can go on and on.
So, yes, it is more.
That's one reason why it's morechallenging because there's
more trauma amongst you know,female born.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I and
people, I wish we would talkabout this more openly, because
then what happens is you getwomen who are coming out of
traumatic relationships with menand diving into, you know,
without stopping and doing thework and healing themselves,
healing their nervous system,and then just tumbling into
(17:12):
another relationship with awoman who is maybe also in
trauma, and then it's just, youknow, a lot of pain is created.
Also because I would say this,something that I'm having to
work on with myself is I think Iexpect more from women.
Like, when a guy shits on me,I'm like, eh, a guy shat on me,
wow, what a surprise, right.
(17:33):
But when a woman does, it canreally feel, um, god, it feels
extra wounding, cause I'm like,oh, you're supposed to be my
community, and I'm not sayingit's fair to either gender and
also let's acknowledge gendersin between, but that you know
that's happened.
I've had some really badexperiences dating women and I
(17:58):
felt shocked by it because, ofcourse, what we see in our
social feed and in media is well, women treat women so much
better.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Not real, yeah yeah.
So then you have this falseexpectation that sets you up for
disappointment.
Then, not to mention righthormones, just pure, like if
you're perimenopausal, you'remenopausal, you're premenop,
whatever.
It is like we're dealing withcycles and periods.
I've just dealt with that, manRight.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, and I think what I realized.
So I, a year and a half ago, Icame out of a really bad
relationship that left me, Imean, a total mess, emotionally
dysregulated, some real traumathat took place and I really
spent a lot of time finding whatregulation felt like to be
(18:49):
emotionally regulated and Ifound this beautiful bliss there
.
So when I finally was like I'mgoing to open myself to dating
again, I'm always like when Imeet people, I'm like I'm at my
baseline.
Now how are they making me feelRight?
Are they pulling me off itconstantly Right?
Pulling me off it constantlyRight?
(19:10):
And I think that that like isit is something important in
relationship with other womenwho might have trauma.
Like this relationship I justgot into, I was like off of you
know, I was like pulled out ofmy regulation and pulled out and
I kept kind of getting myselfback and like talking to her and
like is this going to be a?
constant thing.
Is this what we're going to doif we date?
You know, and it was definitelygoing to be a constant thing.
Is this what we're going to doif we date?
And it was definitely going tobe that and I use it as a
(19:32):
measure for anybody I'm dating.
But I just think that there wasthis part of me that just felt
like oh, of course this is goingto be great because this is
another woman who's also sharedtraumatic experiences and she's
going to be gentle with myfeelings, she's going to know
I'm also like in this newlyregulated place and care, and
(19:55):
that doesn't always happen.
And I think women need to not gointo dating other women,
especially newbies or recentlycoming out bees.
Don't think that dating a womanis an answer to all of your
problems.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Agreed.
Well said, yeah, annette, Iagree with you.
I think what it comes down tois that we need to.
Most of us have had trauma tovarying degrees and at this
point in life, if you're in yourthirties plus, I think now is
the time to start really lookingat some of your stuff.
You're noticing patterns ofbehavior.
(20:31):
You're noticing that you haveblind spots.
You're noticing that certainbehaviors might trigger your
nervous system to get escalatedor deregulated, learning tools
and skills.
It's so essential to have ahealthy, just healthy ongoing
relationships, and it's not justin romantic relationships.
(20:51):
Any kind of interpersonalrelationship improves if you do
your own work Right.
It's so important.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, and so this kind of brings up to mind one of
the challenges I thinksometimes for also women dating
women.
There's the joke around theU-Haul situation where women
meet each other, they have thisdate and then they're instantly
like future planning together.
First of all, I will say in myexperience, one of the
(21:21):
challenges I have encountereddating women is sort of that
Like I'm on the first date andthey're already talking about do
you want to have a blendedfamily someday?
And I'm like dude, I'm justtrying to figure out if I even
want a second date.
Why do you think?
First of all, do you agree thatthat does tend to be a
(21:43):
generalization for a reason, andI also think it may be tied to
women tend to be a little bitmore anxious in relationships,
and when we experience anxiety,when we meet someone and we
start to have those sparks andwe think, oh, that anxious
feeling is love, like that'sfucking love, instead of waiting
(22:06):
and experience what beingregulated with someone who's
kind to you, that's like love.
This beautiful, calm, safefeeling is now like what I
desire and seek for, and I'vebeen experiencing with someone
else, and so it got me wondering.
Do you think that's at the rootof that U-Haul experience?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
So what a great question.
So basically, first of all, ithappens in the heterosexual
world too, where people can movereally fast.
But in general I do think theU-Haul stereotype there's some
truth to it, especially amongstwomen, female, you know, born, I
want to say cis females thatare born that way, right.
(22:52):
So the reason is because we'renurturers, we're wired to
quickly really connect andnurture and take care of base
and camp, right, and so that's.
You want to figure that outquickly.
So that's why they're askingthese questions about the future
so early on.
The other thing is you'redealing with biochemical changes
, oxytocin, a hormone that makesus feel like we want to be
(23:15):
close and connected.
When there's that chemistryserotonin, norepinephrine,
neurotransmitters that make usfeel euphoric when we have that
attraction chemistry piece onboard.
So your prefrontal cortex getstotally disabled when all of
those chemicals are flowing.
So your judgment is impairedand you're ready to just keep
(23:40):
leaning into what feels amazing.
And when you're away from thisperson, you start to feel really
anxious because oxytocin makesyou feel like you need to be
close together, in closeproximity.
So there's the U-Haul effect.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, it makes so much sense.
It makes so much sense.
So what would dating advice befor a woman who finds herself?
You go on a first date, youguys kiss and all those sparks
happen and suddenly it's likethis is it, this is it, yeah
slow your roll, slow down,notice what it's what you're
(24:18):
feeling.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
What is it like being in the presence of this person?
You're noticing all of thisexcitement, the butterflies in
your stomach.
You feel a little nauseous.
You're wanting to spend everymoment with them.
It's Friday, you're on yourfirst day, and you're already
talking about seeing themtomorrow morning, on Saturday
and then on Saturday you'rehanging out with them and you
want to hang out with them onset, like slow, just slow down.
(24:39):
Create some space so that youcan both breathe and you leave
each other at the height.
You don't want to stay inexhaust.
That, right, it's how you putthe fire out.
The excitement goes out If youjust lean into that and make
poor choices, use poor judgment.
You want to override that andcontrol yourself.
Even though you're feeling allthat intensity and you feel like
(25:01):
you're falling in love.
You got to recognize it's achemical reaction.
It's not love.
What you can celebrate is thatwow, I'm attracted to this
person.
My body's alive and I want tokeep getting to know this person
and I'm going to be the adultthat's getting to know this
person and I'm going to be theadult that's driving my system
right now and I'm going to sayyou know what?
(25:21):
It's Friday.
I would love to see you again.
Let's get together next week.
Push it out and just sit withthose feelings.
Observe what it feels likesomatically in your body and
what your mind is telling you.
And what your mind is tellingyou doesn't mean you have to act
on it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Right, because also, love is something that comes
from getting to know someone andseeing the kind of person they
are and going oh, you're abeautiful person, you're kind to
me, you know, over time we'vedone these things and you've
(26:00):
treated me with respect andyou've made me feel secure, and
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That's what love is True love is born out of, and it
takes time.
So you want to hang in therethrough limerence right Six to
eight months.
During that period you have alot of those chemicals flowing.
As time goes on they taper off.
But we're also in this phase oflike peacock effect.
We are presenting ourselves asbest as we can.
(26:25):
We're managing our lessflattering parts of our
personality, kind of our morerough edges.
We all have them and you canonly hide that or pretend for so
long.
So you want to be in therelationship long enough to be
able to see our less flatteringsides and then to determine can
(26:47):
I handle it?
Okay, Now I see that thisperson will stonewall me for 24
hours when I show that I havesome emotion.
That's negative.
I bring up a difficult topic.
Yeah, how do I feel about that?
How are they reacting to thefact that I'm noticing this and
(27:08):
are they willing to?
Can they self-reflect?
Are they willing to take someaccountability?
Like, what are we dealing withhere?
Is this something that I couldsee long-term?
Some accountability Like whatare we dealing with here?
Is this something that I couldsee long-term?
Because behavioral change wecan change, but it takes work, a
lot of effort, and you can'tchange anybody.
They have to want it forthemselves.
And that's where we make amistake time and again.
(27:31):
We think we can change people.
If we love them unconditionally, their behavior is somehow
going to change.
That's a misnomer,misconception.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Right, and if you're choosing to get into a
relationship with someone, thatmeans you're choosing to be in
relationship with them as theyare in this moment, without the
agreement that anything willchange, and so that's why you've
got to look for like the littlethings that you see.
Like, for instance, a great oneis you have a conflict and they
(28:03):
leave you like hanging in themiddle of because they can't
Abandoned, they abandon you.
I'm telling you the first timethey abandon you.
If it's early on, and well,maybe if ever.
Early on, and well, maybe ifever.
That is not something thattakes a short time for someone
to stop doing right Learning tostick it out.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, they get hijacked, right.
They get so triggered, theirnervous system gets completely
dysregulated and they'reoverloaded and they can't pull
themselves back together enoughto even just say I'm overloaded,
overwhelmed.
Let's come back to this in twohours.
They can't, they just gethijacked.
They got work to do.
(28:43):
So you got to ask yourself canI handle this?
And it depends on what you haveexperienced in your life and
how much work you've done.
If you're a securely attachedperson, that may not really
dysregulate you.
You may be like you know what.
I see what's happening here andI feel grounded still.
And let's see, you know thisdoesn't.
(29:04):
If it doesn't dysregulate you,you might be willing to be
continue to be curious.
It really is so individual.
There's not a right or wrong.
It's really about checking inwith your system and seeing what
feels good to you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That's a hard no for me, buddy.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I mean nope.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'm like, I know, but I think you're right, Like for
me.
I think for me it's like, forthe first time in my life I know
what regulation feels like andI love it so much that I'm just
like and I'm the best partner Ican be from this place and you
know obviously little dips andbeing, you know, but I know the
minute that I'm in a connectionwith someone that's swinging me
(29:45):
all over the place, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But, annette, this comes from your own experiences
in relationship, like lifeexperience, you realize, wow, I
finally have.
I know what it's like to be inrelationship with someone where
my nervous system is calm andyou just you recognize the value
.
So you're not willing totolerate anything less than that
now.
(30:08):
But you got to have theexperiences.
We got to be out there tumblingand grappling and experience
this stuff to know what whatworks for us and what doesn't.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right now, so the message here is just you know,
dating women women just likedating men and people of any
gender you're going to betumbling, You're going to have
to understand that.
It's going to be difficult inother ways, and I know that if
(30:40):
you are newly out it can berough to go out and experience
some of that with women.
And then suddenly you're likeis it me, Is it because
something's wrong with me?
Am I not queer enough, or am Idoing queer the wrong way, or do
I need to shave half my head tofix it, because then I'll look
(31:00):
more queer?
I mean, these are things I hearwomen say all of the time.
Right, how do I be more queer?
So I do it right?
And then I have this experiencedating women that I've heard
about.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Right, heard about, right?
I want to just go back toanother example of what it kind
of can be tough in the we'll.
Just we're talking aboutlesbians right now.
What's tough is also, I think,people who come out later in
life or just in general,realizing that wait a minute,
women, queer women, don't takesuch good care of themselves,
(31:36):
and this is.
It might be offensive to somepeople.
This comes up, for example,like a client would say to me
I'm attracted to really femininewomen that don't appear gay and
that take really good care ofthemselves.
Maybe they're like doing Botoxand they, you know, do the
things they color their hair andthey, you know they're really
into fitness.
Why am I not finding that?
(31:57):
Why does it feel like that's aunicorn in the LGBTQ community
plus community Cause cause it is.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
That's a fact.
The L word lied to us.
The L word lied.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yes, they're more about body acceptance.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
They're more about body acceptance, being natural.
So you're going to see more ofthat just less hair dyeing, less
keratin, less Botox, all of it.
Maybe you won't.
Being someone that dates allgenders and being in open
relationships for quite a bit oftime meaning I'd be dating more
than one person at a time,oftentimes a man and a woman or
people of different genders Oneof the struggles I have
(32:50):
personally found is aroundgrooming down there.
Found is around grooming downthere.
Guys really like it, like nextto no hair, maybe, maybe a
little little something.
Little strip Queer women, Imean, they won't trust you if
you don't have a full bushsometimes, right, Many of us
(33:14):
have lasered it off.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
We're shit out of luck.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You know where I'm going with this.
So in my last relationship thatI was in, and the last time I
was really truly like in amonogamous place was with this
dude who didn't like any hair,and finally I was like if you'd,
and also I'm like if you.
And also I'm going to be clear,I prefer less to none, at least
around my labia, because I getmore sensation and I.
(33:38):
It just feels good.
But I was like, okay, if youdon't like it, then you can pay
to have it, because I'm gettingbumps.
You can pay for the laser jobhe did.
He's gone.
Now I go out on a date with awoman and I'm like, oh fuck, you
know, I just have, and I findmyself actually nervous about
that part of it.
You're gonna know, you're gonnaknow clearly, like, yeah, that
(34:05):
you know, I don't know.
So.
And then also, on the otherhand, I'm like, hey, you could
like trim a little down here.
I'm like weed whacking to findyour clit.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Or you're swallowing like a mouthful of hair.
It's no fun it is no fun sothat is true, yes, so that's
another fact.
Just grooming, just more natural.
Hairy legs, hairy armpits Noteveryone, we're not going to
(34:37):
generalize, but yeah, there'sjust more of a natural approach
and I think they don't, you know.
Going back to misogyny and thepatriarchy, I think there's a
you know wanting to backlashagainst that and a lot of, you
know, heterosexual women feelpressure to really maintain
their youthful bodies and facesand it's expensive and it's
invasive and I think that manywomen in the queer community are
(34:59):
kind of against that idea.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Right, right, yeah.
And it's hard when you're likeI enjoy all of that stuff for
myself.
And then I've had moments whereI'm like, am I going to have to
like undo it to be accepted inthe queer community?
And then I was finally likefuck, no, I'm going to be you,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, just be you, and there will be women that
appreciate you.
And there will be plenty ofwomen too that feel threatened
by it and may question well, how, annette, really, how gay are
you, how bi are you?
This comes up a lot too.
It's like are you going to justget bored with me and decide
you're bored with my plumbingand then jump ship and go find a
(35:40):
guy because you want a dick?
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Can we talk about the big thing.
So before we sign out, we haveto talk about the thing that's
going on in the sapphiccommunity right now with two
very big I would say big sapphiccelebrities, one being Jojo
Siwa and the other beingFletcher and Fletcher is a hot
topic right now because shereally became sort of a sound, a
(36:06):
musical sound, for a lot of thequeer women and LGBTQ community
.
She recently disappeared fromeverything social media for six
months, only to come out in, Ithink, the last week and drop a
song announcing that she and shehad never said she was a
lesbian, but definitely had alot of songs around that, but
(36:29):
that she apparently six monthsago, it sounds like fell in love
with a man, kissed a man andshe's been in hiding because
she's been afraid of what willhappen to her whole community.
Jojo Siwa, of course, is a muchyounger I think she's only like
in her early 20s who also wassort of a queer icon, though not
(36:52):
well-treated or well-liked, whoalso met a man.
And there's just so much angrydiscourse around this in the
sapphic and queer community andI guess from my and people
saying this was not the time forFletcher to come out, and from
my and people saying this wasnot the time for Fletcher to
come out, and from myperspective as a bi woman, I'm
(37:14):
like for me it almost seemsperfect because I think in the
queer community we start, weneed to start talking about what
queer looks like, and sometimesqueer looks like a woman with a
man who has no home baseanymore, because, exactly, yes,
(37:35):
I love that you said that,because you know what it's not
static, it can be fluid and youcan be queer and be in a
heterosexual relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, and you could, you could be a lesbian.
You know you could identify asa lesbian for a certain number
of years and then find yourselfin a relationship with a cis
hetero guy and still be queer.
So I just I think it'simportant to remember that and,
like, people need to be true tothemselves and especially if
they're a public figure, theycan't live in the spotlight and
(38:08):
lie about who they are.
They gotta be, they gotta bereal, spotlight and lie about
who they are.
They got to be real and we needto respect them for doing that
in the best way that they can.
I think Living in hiding istoxic, it's inauthentic.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And how were these two women well, especially
Fletcher supposed to make itthrough pride?
Basically, what people weresaying is you needed to stay in
the closet as a queer woman whohad met a man through pride and
wait to let us know till after,because this is our month, but
it's her month, too right, andshe is in the closet.
(38:46):
She's afraid of you, hercommunity, and I'm like this is
the time we need to be havingthose conversations, Because if
you look at queer pan women, biwomen, non-lesbian, identifying
women, we are at a higher rateof sexual assault, suicide, all
(39:06):
of these things, depression.
Because of this exact dynamic,we have no home.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Totally so, and it perpetuates the problem.
I think we need to do our bestto be visible and real,
authentic and honest and bevulnerable.
In doing that, like look, thisis who I am, you're my fans and
I want to be honest with you.
I'm still queer.
Just because I'm in aheterosexual relationship
doesn't mean my queerness wentaway, like we need to model that
(39:36):
, that it's okay.
It's okay to be sexually fluid.
It is there's nothing wrong withit, yeah, so it's just there
needs to be some learningeducation and we can't hide it,
just perpetuates it, yeah, andPride Month is the best time for
that.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Another comment that is very common, about Fletcher
coming out and sharing.
I kissed a boy and I liked itis on her appearance, because
now they're saying, well, andnow she's wearing flowy clothes
and looking more feminine, andwhat is that all about?
And I'm like also, you can looklike that and be queer.
(40:15):
This is a great lesson and weshould be able to be fluid, like
you said, sometimes you'rewearing your combat boots and
you're like, you know, tighttank top and sometimes you're
high femme and I feel so muchstress about what I wear and
look like when I go out to queerevents because of that very
thing.
And you know what they'resaying is oh, fletcher needs to
(40:37):
look like this, but now she'seven looking like what?
Straight feminine, what is thateven?
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Right, and then they criticize you and judge you
because of it.
Or they feel or the gaycommunity feels betrayed, like
we just lost one.
It or they feel, or the gaycommunity feels betrayed, like
we just lost one right.
That person was on our team andnow you know.
So it's just like we have toshift that way of thinking and
recognize that this is not it's.
It's not coming from a place ofscarcity and coming from a
place of abundance.
(41:04):
This is somebody that's part ofour community and they're happy
in a relationship.
Let's celebrate them.
There's a queer person that canbe celebrated.
That demonstrates that they canbe in relationship with
somebody that's the same genderand also of the opposite gender
Great.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Right and also, I think, as part of the dating
scenario, can you speak to theidea you mentioned before of a
bi woman or a queer womangetting sick of a certain
plumbing and looking for anotherhuman Because, as a bi woman,
I'm like A gross B?
(41:40):
That's not how it works.
If I choose to date someone ofa different gender, it's not
about the plumbing, it's abouthow I'm being treated Like.
If you want to keep me, treatme well.
Absolutely has nothing.
It's about how I'm beingtreated Like.
If you want to keep me, treatme well.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Absolutely.
It's an excuse.
When somebody says, well, youknow they left me because you
know I don't have the rightplumbing, that's an excuse.
That is an opportunity for usto slow down and really look at
what happened.
And oftentimes it's, you know,it's emotional, it's behavioral.
There's a disconnect in therelationship.
It wasn't working.
They didn't leave because ofyour genitalia.
(42:16):
You can offer pleasure, youknow, if you like penetration,
plenty of dildos, plenty you canfinger.
I mean, I can go on and on.
It's not about plumbing.
So let's just be real withourselves.
It's not about plumbing, benice.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
No, I think that you know dating as a queer person,
but specifically as a queerwoman, lesbian woman.
It's complicated and it'sdifficult and we are dealing
when we're dealing with women,especially women who are not
heterosexual, and not to dismissthe trauma heterosexual women
also have had.
But this population we are allnow you've got this population
(42:57):
of people who have beentraumatized in lots of different
ways, trying to come togetherand create beautiful
relationships, and I think it'simportant for us to acknowledge
the complexities and difficultywith that instead of just
promoting it.
As a women are better, they'lltreat you better.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
That's not helping anybody, no no, I agree with you
and I just this conversation isso important.
I think we need to keep havingthese conversations and, no
matter how scary it is, to bereal and and step into that.
You know, honesty, radicalhonesty.
It's the way we've got to go,because the needle has to keep
(43:35):
moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
That's right Now.
Before we wrap up, can you givemy listeners just a couple of
tips as they head into pridelooking for their next big queer
love?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Oh my gosh, Don't be afraid to take risks.
Get out there, be bold.
If you see somebody thatcatches your eye, go over,
introduce yourself and just sayI just noticed you and I had to
come over and introduce myself.
I have no idea if you're queer,I have no idea if you're single
.
My name's Frankie, just wantedto say hi, strike up a
conversation.
We need it now more than ever.
In-person interactionsDefinitely that.
(44:09):
Also, during Pride Month, planto do three events queer events
Get out there in person.
We have events.
My company offers events allover the country virtual and in
person.
Singles events oh perfect.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Get it.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Get out there.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, so let them know where to find you.
Now is their chance.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, littlegaybookcom.
We, you know, we serve theLGBTQ plus community.
We have events, singles events,we have matchmaking, we have
coaching programs.
We have, I mean, a plethora, somany different ways that we can
support you in having you know,in finding amazing partners and
then maintaining thoserelationships.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I love it.
So check her out, guys.
This is Pride Month.
Love is abundant Abundance.
That's what we're talking aboutand thinking about here.
More and more people are comingout as bi queer pan every day
and there's a lot of opportunityout there to find love.
So go show your pride.
And just remember it's not alleasy.
(45:09):
It's not all unicorns andrainbows, but a lot of it is.
So thank you so much for joiningme for this conversation today.
Thank you, Annette.
All right, and to my listeners.
Until next time, I'll see youin the locker room.
Cheers.
Do the sex?
I'm Annette Benedetti, host ofthe podcast formerly known as
Locker Room Talkin' Shots.
The show has a new name TalkSex with Annette, but at its
core, this is still your lockerroom.
It's where we strip away shame,get curious and speak the
unspoken about sex, kink dating,pleasure and desire Around here
(00:22):
, nothing's off limits.
Pleasure and desire Around here, nothing's off limits.
These are the kinds ofconversations we save for our
boldest group chats, our mosttrusted friends and, of course,
the women's locker room.
Think raw, honest and sometimesunapologetically raunchy.
If you've been here from thebeginning, thank you, and if
you're new, welcome to mypodcast, where desire meets
(00:43):
disruption and pleasure becomespower.
Now let's talk about sex Cheers.
Today's Talk Sex with Annette.
Topic is queer dating.
How does it look different thanyou might see it in the
(01:03):
heterosexual world?
It is Pride Month and y'allknow I'm queer and I've been
dating.
It's been interesting and I amvery excited today to like drill
down into what dating lookslike as a queer woman.
In my case, I'm queer by pan.
(01:26):
I pretty much am attracted toeverybody, but a lot of the time
dating is seen through the lensof heteronormative society and
so when those of us who mightdiscover we are queer later in
life especially discover we arequeer later in life especially
(01:49):
and we want to start meetingpeople, it's like there is no
guidebook and it is not like itwas when we were just dating the
opposite sex, and the struggleis real.
I think that's what you'll hearacross the board.
Well, it doesn't have to be asdifficult anymore.
You are not alone.
I have an expert here, if youwill, on dating as a queer
(02:10):
person.
Today, I am joined by theincredible Dr Frankie Bichon, a
licensed clinical psychologist,board-certified sex therapist
and the powerhouse behind LittleGay Book and Little Black Book
matchmaking.
She spent over two decadeshelping people find love, build
intimacy and get real abouttheir desires.
We are going to break down whatdating as a queer person looks
(02:34):
like, some of the commonchallenges and how to navigate
them and possibly, hopefully,find love.
But before we dive in, I wantto remind you that I am over on
OnlyFans and there I'm sharingmy sex and intimacy how-tos,
demonstrations and audio guidedself-pleasure meditations, all
designed to help you starthaving better sex and intimacy
(02:55):
with someone else or yourself,starting tonight.
You can also find me over onSubstack doing the same and so
much more, and you can find mein both places with my handle at
TalkSexWithAnnette but luckyyou.
If you scroll down to thedescription in this episode,
you're going to find links toeverywhere you could possibly
want to find me there, but fornow let's dive into dating as a
(03:16):
queer person.
Frankie, can you tell mylisteners just a little bit more
about you?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Sure.
First of all, I want to thankyou, annette, for having me on
Excited to be here.
More about me I'm originallyfrom Manhattan, so that I think
I have a very much an East Coastvibe about me that I haven't
lost.
I've been in California now,for you know, like 25 years.
I moved out here to get mydoctorate in clinical psychology
to Berkeley.
I'm a mom.
I've got twins boy-girl twinsthat are 20 years old.
(03:45):
Can't believe that I don't feelmuch older than 28 myself.
How in the world do you knowwhat I mean?
Did I have kids that are now 20?
And I just I love my career.
I feel so blessed and I'm happyto talk all about it with you
today.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
All right, guys.
So you're gonna stay to the endBecause, well, if you're
straight, you're just going towant to know what we're doing
over here on the other side ofdating, because it's fun and
sexy.
If you are queer and I knowthere are so many of you out
there who are we're going tohelp you figure out how to do
this shit, because I'm still ata loss.
So by the end of this podcast,you're going to know exactly
(04:21):
what you need to do to find love.
All right, maybe that's anoverstatement, but you're going
to be a little bit closer tohaving some tips on how to
navigate, getting out there anddating and finding the partner
you want to find.
So let's dive in.
Are you ready, frankie?
Let's talk.
First of all, cheers, happypride, happy pride and here's to
(04:43):
finding love someday.
Cheers, I'm gonna put you inthe hot seat.
I recently it was a quickiestarted, uh, dating a woman.
Um, I would call and I feellike this is derogatory and you
can tell me I referred, referredto her as a baby bi, meaning a
(05:07):
woman.
She was a grown woman who hadkind of recently discovered her
queerness and was diving intonavigating that.
And I met her and I was likesometimes baby queers can be
messy, messy, messy and it wasinstantly messy.
But I was also like she's realcute, pretty funny, and dating
(05:34):
women is hard.
Dating as a queer woman is hard, dating as not a lesbian woman
is hard.
And I know I also run retreatsfor bi and queer women and we
all talk about the samedifficulty.
How do you know when someone,if you are looking at dating
someone who is the same sex asyou, same gender as you, how do
you know if they're queer?
How do you address them andflirt with them?
(05:57):
How do you keep them from goinginto the friend zone?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's like one of the most, yeah, that's like one
of the most popular questions.
But it's tough, right, becauseif you're attracted to more
feminine women, you can't, youdon't, you can't tell if they're
queer.
So I always say, just be directand just be curious, just ask
Are you queer?
I mean, are you part of thequeer community?
(06:24):
No-transcript, right, you look,maybe you know, because people
(06:55):
also ask how do I signify?
What symbols can I wear?
How can I?
Is there something I can?
Can I change the way that Iwalk?
They'll ask us things like that, you know, because they want to
be identifiable to the rightpeople.
So, yeah, I think it's tough,but there are definitely tattoos
are helpful, and I just think,in general, right now it's tough
(07:16):
dating period, whether you'restraight or gay.
But there are clear challengesthat apply to our community.
That have been, they continueto be challenges, and one is
just sheer numbers.
We don't have the same volumeof singles, LGBTQ plus singles,
(07:39):
and then also, on top of that,people have very specific types,
like of women or gay men orwhatever that they're attracted
to, whether it be like where itfalls on the masculinity,
femininity spectrum, genderexpression.
So people can be very specific.
(07:59):
So I use a scale as amatchmaker.
I'll just say on a scale fromone to 10, 10 being high femme,
five being androgynous, onebeing kind of stone butch, very,
very masculine, like one stepbefore transgender.
Where would you say you wouldplace yourself?
Give me a range.
And what about the personyou're attracted to?
(08:20):
Where would they fall?
Give me a range and thenexplain the nuances.
So if somebody is like five toseven, frankie, okay, well, what
does that mean to you?
Five's androgynous?
Seven to me is kind of like,you know, kind of more feminine
but maybe more sporty.
They're not going to be thehigh femme, that's a 10 that you
(08:42):
know has their nails done allthe time and that takes maybe an
hour in front of the mirror toapply makeup, kind of like a JLo
or Beyonce.
So we get nitty gritty about it.
You know and that's reallydifferent than I think
heterosexual matchmakers whatthey experience it's like cis
(09:03):
hetero men.
They want a hot woman, to date,right, but you know, lesbian
women are like I want a womanwho is sporty but feminine.
Or, you know, can beandrogynous but wears men's
underwear, doesn't wear right,doesn't wear lacy brawn
(09:27):
underwear, okay, all right.
Or they can be androgynous, butthey can't carry around a purse
.
You see this like there arecertain specific artifacts or
you know ways of being orpresenting that can be a turn on
or a turn off.
Yeah, that is, that makes itharder.
So specific.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I didn't even realize .
So I'm getting insight justlearning from this and it's
interesting from my perspective.
I like such a wide range of.
I'm attracted to a wide rangeof women.
I don't know that I could naildown one type, but I run into
(10:11):
the problem with myself becauseI think generally I present as a
pretty high femme.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I'm pretty feminine.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, I'm not good at sports.
I will try to go out there andhit a softball, but I'll hate it
.
I'll do it for you.
I'll be a sporty if you want meto.
But I think along with thatalso comes in this assumption
that I'm more submissive, orthat I'm you know, I'm going to
be this softer personality andno, we can't make those
(10:46):
assumptions, I know butches thatare bottoms.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So it's really important to not assume and
actually you want to have aconversation about it, to
understand.
If you're dating somebody, youwant to be curious and ask,
Right, Because if you like adominant butch, you know you'll
want to know before you findyourself in bed with that person
and you're like whoa, we'redefinitely a mismatch.
There are a lot of butches.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
That are little softies out there.
They're so soft and sweet andthere is this assumption that,
oh, butch means dominant.
There's a lot of and.
I'm going to say this and youcan correct me if you think I'm
wrong.
I do think there's also a lotof misogyny that carries over
(11:31):
into especially the queer femmedynamic the idea of what roles
are, of what looks are and whatshould be lie beneath them,
right, and so, I think, a lot ofqueer women.
We end up in this place offeeling at odds.
Not only are we at odds withour own sexuality and trying to
figure it out, but then, like,with our own presentation.
You know, I love looking how Ido.
(11:53):
I love I spend I do spend agood amount of time in front of
the mirror in the morning and myself worship altar is what I
call it these days.
Um and but.
Then sometimes that fills inconflict with like.
Then the person that shows upand I can see the confusion in
people who are dating me andthey're like oh, this isn't what
(12:14):
I, the package is not, it's notgiving me what I thought I was
getting into, right, I'll usemyself as an example.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I'm really feminine, but I'm also I have a lot of
masculine energy and I can bevery dominant.
So it sort of just depends.
Sometimes it depends on the day.
Some days I feel more femininethan others.
Sometimes I'll just let youknow I'll put on heels and a
really fitted dress, and otherdays I'm wearing like combat
boots and jean shorts and a tanktop like a wife beater, and you
know.
So there are a lot of.
We just people make assumptionsand we don't.
(12:52):
Most of us humans don't fitinto a perfect box.
There's so there's variability,there's a range, but we want it
to.
We're taught that it should beblack and white, and I think
we're wired that way too, youknow.
So I think we need to be morecurious and not be afraid to ask
questions, because the truth isthat when people want to learn
(13:14):
about you, they're curious aboutyou.
It often feels good, as long asthere's that feeling of safety.
Right, and that's another thingthat's different in dating in
the LGBTQ plus community is thatmany people, especially those
that are coming out later inlife, I wonder how, what your
thoughts are on this Cause we'reseeing more and more of that.
It's it.
(13:35):
Safety's really important, likefeeling like they they're going
to come into it with moreguardedness and fear of like the
unknown or you know, and gowalking into a first date
meeting somebody on a dating app.
It's probably a littledifferent for a straight person
versus a gay person, so that's,off the bat, something to
(13:57):
consider.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah.
So, as I was saying at thebeginning of this, I launched a
nonprofit called Bi WomenEmpowered that primarily served
bi women.
It's now being expanded toserve queer identifying women,
meaning that they're attractedto a variety of genders, pan
women, and a large number ofthese women or femme identifying
(14:22):
people are coming out at anolder age, and so I'm talking
mid-30s to 40s and beyond.
And one thing I want to say andI feel like I re-experienced
recently in a big way and Iwould love to hear your take on
this because it's going to alsofeed into something else that's
(14:44):
happening in the LGBT communityright now is I think that when
women realize that they're queerlater in life, it's usually
coming out of a relationship, abad relationship with a man, a
cis man, and it's instantly likeI'm only going to date women.
That's the last man, eventhough I'm maybe not a lesbian,
(15:05):
or maybe I think I'm a lesbianbecause this sucked so much.
And they're like this is goingto be so much better, Dating
women is going to be so muchbetter and so much easier.
And in my experience and in myfriends, like largely in my
community's experience, I thinkthe thing that we're all afraid
to say but I think is importantto address is that it is in fact
(15:26):
not easier and there are thingsthat dating women you don't
have to worry about that.
You do dating men.
And it's like I just don't feelworried for my safety when I go
out on a date with a woman likeI do with a man.
A man is much more likely tooverpower me and harm me.
Right, we know the risk factorgoes up there in physical safety
(15:49):
.
But I would say this when itcomes to emotional safety and
how we all treat each other, donot think that you're going to
go into dating women and they'regoing to be any more
emotionally safe or treating youbetter unless they've done
their work just like men, right.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
In fact, they have more emotional challenges, I
think because there's moretrauma.
One in three women I thinkthat's statistic.
I haven't looked recently, itmight have changed have been
sexually assaulted.
That right there will tell youthat if somebody that you're
considering dating hasn't donethe work, any internal work
(16:31):
right, there's just a higherlikelihood of interpersonal
challenges, attachmentchallenges, communication
challenges, worthiness, shame.
I can go on and on.
So, yes, it is more.
That's one reason why it's morechallenging because there's
more trauma amongst you know,female born.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I and
people, I wish we would talkabout this more openly, because
then what happens is you getwomen who are coming out of
traumatic relationships with menand diving into, you know,
without stopping and doing thework and healing themselves,
healing their nervous system,and then just tumbling into
(17:12):
another relationship with awoman who is maybe also in
trauma, and then it's just, youknow, a lot of pain is created.
Also because I would say this,something that I'm having to
work on with myself is I think Iexpect more from women.
Like, when a guy shits on me,I'm like, eh, a guy shat on me,
wow, what a surprise, right.
(17:33):
But when a woman does, it canreally feel, um, god, it feels
extra wounding, cause I'm like,oh, you're supposed to be my
community, and I'm not sayingit's fair to either gender and
also let's acknowledge gendersin between, but that you know
that's happened.
I've had some really badexperiences dating women and I
(17:58):
felt shocked by it because, ofcourse, what we see in our
social feed and in media is well, women treat women so much
better.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Not real, yeah yeah.
So then you have this falseexpectation that sets you up for
disappointment.
Then, not to mention righthormones, just pure, like if
you're perimenopausal, you'remenopausal, you're premenop,
whatever.
It is like we're dealing withcycles and periods.
I've just dealt with that, manRight.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, and I think what I realized.
So I, a year and a half ago, Icame out of a really bad
relationship that left me, Imean, a total mess, emotionally
dysregulated, some real traumathat took place and I really
spent a lot of time finding whatregulation felt like to be
(18:49):
emotionally regulated and Ifound this beautiful bliss there
.
So when I finally was like I'mgoing to open myself to dating
again, I'm always like when Imeet people, I'm like I'm at my
baseline.
Now how are they making me feelRight?
Are they pulling me off itconstantly Right?
Pulling me off it constantlyRight?
(19:10):
And I think that that like isit is something important in
relationship with other womenwho might have trauma.
Like this relationship I justgot into, I was like off of you
know, I was like pulled out ofmy regulation and pulled out and
I kept kind of getting myselfback and like talking to her and
like is this going to be a?
constant thing.
Is this what we're going to doif we date?
You know, and it was definitelygoing to be a constant thing.
Is this what we're going to doif we date?
And it was definitely going tobe that and I use it as a
(19:32):
measure for anybody I'm dating.
But I just think that there wasthis part of me that just felt
like oh, of course this is goingto be great because this is
another woman who's also sharedtraumatic experiences and she's
going to be gentle with myfeelings, she's going to know
I'm also like in this newlyregulated place and care, and
(19:55):
that doesn't always happen.
And I think women need to not gointo dating other women,
especially newbies or recentlycoming out bees.
Don't think that dating a womanis an answer to all of your
problems.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Agreed.
Well said, yeah, annette, Iagree with you.
I think what it comes down tois that we need to.
Most of us have had trauma tovarying degrees and at this
point in life, if you're in yourthirties plus, I think now is
the time to start really lookingat some of your stuff.
You're noticing patterns ofbehavior.
(20:31):
You're noticing that you haveblind spots.
You're noticing that certainbehaviors might trigger your
nervous system to get escalatedor deregulated, learning tools
and skills.
It's so essential to have ahealthy, just healthy ongoing
relationships, and it's not justin romantic relationships.
(20:51):
Any kind of interpersonalrelationship improves if you do
your own work Right.
It's so important.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, and so this kind of brings up to mind one of
the challenges I thinksometimes for also women dating
women.
There's the joke around theU-Haul situation where women
meet each other, they have thisdate and then they're instantly
like future planning together.
First of all, I will say in myexperience, one of the
(21:21):
challenges I have encountereddating women is sort of that
Like I'm on the first date andthey're already talking about do
you want to have a blendedfamily someday?
And I'm like dude, I'm justtrying to figure out if I even
want a second date.
Why do you think?
First of all, do you agree thatthat does tend to be a
(21:43):
generalization for a reason, andI also think it may be tied to
women tend to be a little bitmore anxious in relationships,
and when we experience anxiety,when we meet someone and we
start to have those sparks andwe think, oh, that anxious
feeling is love, like that'sfucking love, instead of waiting
(22:06):
and experience what beingregulated with someone who's
kind to you, that's like love.
This beautiful, calm, safefeeling is now like what I
desire and seek for, and I'vebeen experiencing with someone
else, and so it got me wondering.
Do you think that's at the rootof that U-Haul experience?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
So what a great question.
So basically, first of all, ithappens in the heterosexual
world too, where people can movereally fast.
But in general I do think theU-Haul stereotype there's some
truth to it, especially amongstwomen, female, you know, born, I
want to say cis females thatare born that way, right.
(22:52):
So the reason is because we'renurturers, we're wired to
quickly really connect andnurture and take care of base
and camp, right, and so that's.
You want to figure that outquickly.
So that's why they're askingthese questions about the future
so early on.
The other thing is you'redealing with biochemical changes
, oxytocin, a hormone that makesus feel like we want to be
(23:15):
close and connected.
When there's that chemistryserotonin, norepinephrine,
neurotransmitters that make usfeel euphoric when we have that
attraction chemistry piece onboard.
So your prefrontal cortex getstotally disabled when all of
those chemicals are flowing.
So your judgment is impairedand you're ready to just keep
(23:40):
leaning into what feels amazing.
And when you're away from thisperson, you start to feel really
anxious because oxytocin makesyou feel like you need to be
close together, in closeproximity.
So there's the U-Haul effect.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, it makes so much sense.
It makes so much sense.
So what would dating advice befor a woman who finds herself?
You go on a first date, youguys kiss and all those sparks
happen and suddenly it's likethis is it, this is it, yeah
slow your roll, slow down,notice what it's what you're
(24:18):
feeling.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
What is it like being in the presence of this person?
You're noticing all of thisexcitement, the butterflies in
your stomach.
You feel a little nauseous.
You're wanting to spend everymoment with them.
It's Friday, you're on yourfirst day, and you're already
talking about seeing themtomorrow morning, on Saturday
and then on Saturday you'rehanging out with them and you
want to hang out with them onset, like slow, just slow down.
(24:39):
Create some space so that youcan both breathe and you leave
each other at the height.
You don't want to stay inexhaust.
That, right, it's how you putthe fire out.
The excitement goes out If youjust lean into that and make
poor choices, use poor judgment.
You want to override that andcontrol yourself.
Even though you're feeling allthat intensity and you feel like
(25:01):
you're falling in love.
You got to recognize it's achemical reaction.
It's not love.
What you can celebrate is thatwow, I'm attracted to this
person.
My body's alive and I want tokeep getting to know this person
and I'm going to be the adultthat's getting to know this
person and I'm going to be theadult that's driving my system
right now and I'm going to sayyou know what?
(25:21):
It's Friday.
I would love to see you again.
Let's get together next week.
Push it out and just sit withthose feelings.
Observe what it feels likesomatically in your body and
what your mind is telling you.
And what your mind is tellingyou doesn't mean you have to act
on it.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Right, because also, love is something that comes
from getting to know someone andseeing the kind of person they
are and going oh, you're abeautiful person, you're kind to
me, you know, over time we'vedone these things and you've
(26:00):
treated me with respect andyou've made me feel secure, and
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
That's what love is True love is born out of, and it
takes time.
So you want to hang in therethrough limerence right Six to
eight months.
During that period you have alot of those chemicals flowing.
As time goes on they taper off.
But we're also in this phase oflike peacock effect.
We are presenting ourselves asbest as we can.
(26:25):
We're managing our lessflattering parts of our
personality, kind of our morerough edges.
We all have them and you canonly hide that or pretend for so
long.
So you want to be in therelationship long enough to be
able to see our less flatteringsides and then to determine can
(26:47):
I handle it?
Okay, Now I see that thisperson will stonewall me for 24
hours when I show that I havesome emotion.
That's negative.
I bring up a difficult topic.
Yeah, how do I feel about that?
How are they reacting to thefact that I'm noticing this and
(27:08):
are they willing to?
Can they self-reflect?
Are they willing to take someaccountability?
Like, what are we dealing withhere?
Is this something that I couldsee long-term?
Some accountability Like whatare we dealing with here?
Is this something that I couldsee long-term?
Because behavioral change wecan change, but it takes work, a
lot of effort, and you can'tchange anybody.
They have to want it forthemselves.
And that's where we make amistake time and again.
(27:31):
We think we can change people.
If we love them unconditionally, their behavior is somehow
going to change.
That's a misnomer,misconception.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Right, and if you're choosing to get into a
relationship with someone, thatmeans you're choosing to be in
relationship with them as theyare in this moment, without the
agreement that anything willchange, and so that's why you've
got to look for like the littlethings that you see.
Like, for instance, a great oneis you have a conflict and they
(28:03):
leave you like hanging in themiddle of because they can't
Abandoned, they abandon you.
I'm telling you the first timethey abandon you.
If it's early on, and well,maybe if ever.
Early on, and well, maybe ifever.
That is not something thattakes a short time for someone
to stop doing right Learning tostick it out.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, they get hijacked, right.
They get so triggered, theirnervous system gets completely
dysregulated and they'reoverloaded and they can't pull
themselves back together enoughto even just say I'm overloaded,
overwhelmed.
Let's come back to this in twohours.
They can't, they just gethijacked.
They got work to do.
(28:43):
So you got to ask yourself canI handle this?
And it depends on what you haveexperienced in your life and
how much work you've done.
If you're a securely attachedperson, that may not really
dysregulate you.
You may be like you know what.
I see what's happening here andI feel grounded still.
And let's see, you know thisdoesn't.
(29:04):
If it doesn't dysregulate you,you might be willing to be
continue to be curious.
It really is so individual.
There's not a right or wrong.
It's really about checking inwith your system and seeing what
feels good to you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That's a hard no for me, buddy.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
I mean nope.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'm like, I know, but I think you're right, Like for
me.
I think for me it's like, forthe first time in my life I know
what regulation feels like andI love it so much that I'm just
like and I'm the best partner Ican be from this place and you
know obviously little dips andbeing, you know, but I know the
minute that I'm in a connectionwith someone that's swinging me
(29:45):
all over the place, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But, annette, this comes from your own experiences
in relationship, like lifeexperience, you realize, wow, I
finally have.
I know what it's like to be inrelationship with someone where
my nervous system is calm andyou just you recognize the value
.
So you're not willing totolerate anything less than that
now.
(30:08):
But you got to have theexperiences.
We got to be out there tumblingand grappling and experience
this stuff to know what whatworks for us and what doesn't.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right now, so the message here is just you know,
dating women women just likedating men and people of any
gender you're going to betumbling, You're going to have
to understand that.
It's going to be difficult inother ways, and I know that if
(30:40):
you are newly out it can berough to go out and experience
some of that with women.
And then suddenly you're likeis it me, Is it because
something's wrong with me?
Am I not queer enough, or am Idoing queer the wrong way, or do
I need to shave half my head tofix it, because then I'll look
(31:00):
more queer?
I mean, these are things I hearwomen say all of the time.
Right, how do I be more queer?
So I do it right?
And then I have this experiencedating women that I've heard
about.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Right, heard about, right?
I want to just go back toanother example of what it kind
of can be tough in the we'll.
Just we're talking aboutlesbians right now.
What's tough is also, I think,people who come out later in
life or just in general,realizing that wait a minute,
women, queer women, don't takesuch good care of themselves,
(31:36):
and this is.
It might be offensive to somepeople.
This comes up, for example,like a client would say to me
I'm attracted to really femininewomen that don't appear gay and
that take really good care ofthemselves.
Maybe they're like doing Botoxand they, you know, do the
things they color their hair andthey, you know they're really
into fitness.
Why am I not finding that?
(31:57):
Why does it feel like that's aunicorn in the LGBTQ community
plus community Cause cause it is.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
That's a fact.
The L word lied to us.
The L word lied.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yes, they're more about body acceptance.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
They're more about body acceptance, being natural.
So you're going to see more ofthat just less hair dyeing, less
keratin, less Botox, all of it.
Maybe you won't.
Being someone that dates allgenders and being in open
relationships for quite a bit oftime meaning I'd be dating more
than one person at a time,oftentimes a man and a woman or
people of different genders Oneof the struggles I have
(32:50):
personally found is aroundgrooming down there.
Found is around grooming downthere.
Guys really like it, like nextto no hair, maybe, maybe a
little little something.
Little strip Queer women, Imean, they won't trust you if
you don't have a full bushsometimes, right, Many of us
(33:14):
have lasered it off.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
We're shit out of luck.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You know where I'm going with this.
So in my last relationship thatI was in, and the last time I
was really truly like in amonogamous place was with this
dude who didn't like any hair,and finally I was like if you'd,
and also I'm like if you.
And also I'm going to be clear,I prefer less to none, at least
around my labia, because I getmore sensation and I.
(33:38):
It just feels good.
But I was like, okay, if youdon't like it, then you can pay
to have it, because I'm gettingbumps.
You can pay for the laser jobhe did.
He's gone.
Now I go out on a date with awoman and I'm like, oh fuck, you
know, I just have, and I findmyself actually nervous about
that part of it.
You're gonna know, you're gonnaknow clearly, like, yeah, that
(34:05):
you know, I don't know.
So.
And then also, on the otherhand, I'm like, hey, you could
like trim a little down here.
I'm like weed whacking to findyour clit.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Or you're swallowing like a mouthful of hair.
It's no fun it is no fun sothat is true, yes, so that's
another fact.
Just grooming, just more natural.
Hairy legs, hairy armpits Noteveryone, we're not going to
(34:37):
generalize, but yeah, there'sjust more of a natural approach
and I think they don't, you know.
Going back to misogyny and thepatriarchy, I think there's a
you know wanting to backlashagainst that and a lot of, you
know, heterosexual women feelpressure to really maintain
their youthful bodies and facesand it's expensive and it's
invasive and I think that manywomen in the queer community are
(34:59):
kind of against that idea.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Right, right, yeah.
And it's hard when you're likeI enjoy all of that stuff for
myself.
And then I've had moments whereI'm like, am I going to have to
like undo it to be accepted inthe queer community?
And then I was finally likefuck, no, I'm going to be you,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, just be you, and there will be women that
appreciate you.
And there will be plenty ofwomen too that feel threatened
by it and may question well, how, annette, really, how gay are
you, how bi are you?
This comes up a lot too.
It's like are you going to justget bored with me and decide
you're bored with my plumbingand then jump ship and go find a
(35:40):
guy because you want a dick?
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Can we talk about the big thing.
So before we sign out, we haveto talk about the thing that's
going on in the sapphiccommunity right now with two
very big I would say big sapphiccelebrities, one being Jojo
Siwa and the other beingFletcher and Fletcher is a hot
topic right now because shereally became sort of a sound, a
(36:06):
musical sound, for a lot of thequeer women and LGBTQ community
.
She recently disappeared fromeverything social media for six
months, only to come out in, Ithink, the last week and drop a
song announcing that she and shehad never said she was a
lesbian, but definitely had alot of songs around that, but
(36:29):
that she apparently six monthsago, it sounds like fell in love
with a man, kissed a man andshe's been in hiding because
she's been afraid of what willhappen to her whole community.
Jojo Siwa, of course, is a muchyounger I think she's only like
in her early 20s who also wassort of a queer icon, though not
(36:52):
well-treated or well-liked, whoalso met a man.
And there's just so much angrydiscourse around this in the
sapphic and queer community andI guess from my and people
saying this was not the time forFletcher to come out, and from
my and people saying this wasnot the time for Fletcher to
come out, and from myperspective as a bi woman, I'm
(37:14):
like for me it almost seemsperfect because I think in the
queer community we start, weneed to start talking about what
queer looks like, and sometimesqueer looks like a woman with a
man who has no home baseanymore, because, exactly, yes,
(37:35):
I love that you said that,because you know what it's not
static, it can be fluid and youcan be queer and be in a
heterosexual relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, and you could, you could be a lesbian.
You know you could identify asa lesbian for a certain number
of years and then find yourselfin a relationship with a cis
hetero guy and still be queer.
So I just I think it'simportant to remember that and,
like, people need to be true tothemselves and especially if
they're a public figure, theycan't live in the spotlight and
(38:08):
lie about who they are.
They gotta be, they gotta bereal, spotlight and lie about
who they are.
They got to be real and we needto respect them for doing that
in the best way that they can.
I think Living in hiding istoxic, it's inauthentic.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
And how were these two women well, especially
Fletcher supposed to make itthrough pride?
Basically, what people weresaying is you needed to stay in
the closet as a queer woman whohad met a man through pride and
wait to let us know till after,because this is our month, but
it's her month, too right, andshe is in the closet.
(38:46):
She's afraid of you, hercommunity, and I'm like this is
the time we need to be havingthose conversations, Because if
you look at queer pan women, biwomen, non-lesbian, identifying
women, we are at a higher rateof sexual assault, suicide, all
(39:06):
of these things, depression.
Because of this exact dynamic,we have no home.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Totally so, and it perpetuates the problem.
I think we need to do our bestto be visible and real,
authentic and honest and bevulnerable.
In doing that, like look, thisis who I am, you're my fans and
I want to be honest with you.
I'm still queer.
Just because I'm in aheterosexual relationship
doesn't mean my queerness wentaway, like we need to model that
(39:36):
, that it's okay.
It's okay to be sexually fluid.
It is there's nothing wrong withit, yeah, so it's just there
needs to be some learningeducation and we can't hide it,
just perpetuates it, yeah, andPride Month is the best time for
that.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Another comment that is very common, about Fletcher
coming out and sharing.
I kissed a boy and I liked itis on her appearance, because
now they're saying, well, andnow she's wearing flowy clothes
and looking more feminine, andwhat is that all about?
And I'm like also, you can looklike that and be queer.
(40:15):
This is a great lesson and weshould be able to be fluid, like
you said, sometimes you'rewearing your combat boots and
you're like, you know, tighttank top and sometimes you're
high femme and I feel so muchstress about what I wear and
look like when I go out to queerevents because of that very
thing.
And you know what they'resaying is oh, fletcher needs to
(40:37):
look like this, but now she'seven looking like what?
Straight feminine, what is thateven?
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Right, and then they criticize you and judge you
because of it.
Or they feel or the gaycommunity feels betrayed, like
we just lost one.
It or they feel, or the gaycommunity feels betrayed, like
we just lost one right.
That person was on our team andnow you know.
So it's just like we have toshift that way of thinking and
recognize that this is not it's.
It's not coming from a place ofscarcity and coming from a
place of abundance.
(41:04):
This is somebody that's part ofour community and they're happy
in a relationship.
Let's celebrate them.
There's a queer person that canbe celebrated.
That demonstrates that they canbe in relationship with
somebody that's the same genderand also of the opposite gender
Great.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Right and also, I think, as part of the dating
scenario, can you speak to theidea you mentioned before of a
bi woman or a queer womangetting sick of a certain
plumbing and looking for anotherhuman Because, as a bi woman,
I'm like A gross B?
(41:40):
That's not how it works.
If I choose to date someone ofa different gender, it's not
about the plumbing, it's abouthow I'm being treated Like.
If you want to keep me, treatme well.
Absolutely has nothing.
It's about how I'm beingtreated Like.
If you want to keep me, treatme well.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Absolutely.
It's an excuse.
When somebody says, well, youknow they left me because you
know I don't have the rightplumbing, that's an excuse.
That is an opportunity for usto slow down and really look at
what happened.
And oftentimes it's, you know,it's emotional, it's behavioral.
There's a disconnect in therelationship.
It wasn't working.
They didn't leave because ofyour genitalia.
(42:16):
You can offer pleasure, youknow, if you like penetration,
plenty of dildos, plenty you canfinger.
I mean, I can go on and on.
It's not about plumbing.
So let's just be real withourselves.
It's not about plumbing, benice.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
No, I think that you know dating as a queer person,
but specifically as a queerwoman, lesbian woman.
It's complicated and it'sdifficult and we are dealing
when we're dealing with women,especially women who are not
heterosexual, and not to dismissthe trauma heterosexual women
also have had.
But this population we are allnow you've got this population
(42:57):
of people who have beentraumatized in lots of different
ways, trying to come togetherand create beautiful
relationships, and I think it'simportant for us to acknowledge
the complexities and difficultywith that instead of just
promoting it.
As a women are better, they'lltreat you better.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
That's not helping anybody, no no, I agree with you
and I just this conversation isso important.
I think we need to keep havingthese conversations and, no
matter how scary it is, to bereal and and step into that.
You know, honesty, radicalhonesty.
It's the way we've got to go,because the needle has to keep
(43:35):
moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
That's right Now.
Before we wrap up, can you givemy listeners just a couple of
tips as they head into pridelooking for their next big queer
love?
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Oh my gosh, Don't be afraid to take risks.
Get out there, be bold.
If you see somebody thatcatches your eye, go over,
introduce yourself and just sayI just noticed you and I had to
come over and introduce myself.
I have no idea if you're queer,I have no idea if you're single
.
My name's Frankie, just wantedto say hi, strike up a
conversation.
We need it now more than ever.
In-person interactionsDefinitely that.
(44:09):
Also, during Pride Month, planto do three events queer events
Get out there in person.
We have events.
My company offers events allover the country virtual and in
person.
Singles events oh perfect.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Get it.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Get out there.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, so let them know where to find you.
Now is their chance.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, littlegaybookcom.
We, you know, we serve theLGBTQ plus community.
We have events, singles events,we have matchmaking, we have
coaching programs.
We have, I mean, a plethora, somany different ways that we can
support you in having you know,in finding amazing partners and
then maintaining thoserelationships.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I love it.
So check her out, guys.
This is Pride Month.
Love is abundant Abundance.
That's what we're talking aboutand thinking about here.
More and more people are comingout as bi queer pan every day
and there's a lot of opportunityout there to find love.
So go show your pride.
And just remember it's not alleasy.
(45:09):
It's not all unicorns andrainbows, but a lot of it is.
So thank you so much for joiningme for this conversation today.
Thank you, Annette.
All right, and to my listeners.
Until next time, I'll see youin the locker room.
Cheers.
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