Featuring Aviation Training Academy (ATA)

Dave Ware, the co-founder of Aviation Training Academy, joins us as our guest on this episode. As a seasoned expert, Dave takes us behind the scenes of an industry where precision matters and strict adherence to aviation fuel and safety standards is necessary. Tune in as we address fuel handling, compliance, and innovative solutions, such as advanced fuel monitoring systems and fuel efficiency software that drive regulatory compliance within the aviation sector. Dave discusses the essential role of hands-on training and shares invaluable resources for keeping pace with evolving regulations. In this episode, you will hear all about the intricacies of fuel management in the aviation sector.

Episode Transcription

Additional Resources:
Aviation Training Academy
Airlines.Org
NFPA 407
API 1595

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Episode Transcript

Shannon (00:00):
All right, good morning .
Welcome to Tank Talk.
This is season two and I have aspecial guest today from
Aviation Training Academy.
It's Dave Ware and we haveworked with Dave on a couple of
different projects related tothe ATA 103 standard.
His firm, aviation TrainingAcademy, provides ATA 103
training.

(00:20):
They do a whole bunch of otherstuff and, dave, I'm so excited
to have you here to talk aboutATA 103 today.
Welcome.

David (00:27):
Well, thank you all very much for having us.
It's a pleasure and an honor tobe on.
It's my very first podcast.

Shannon (00:34):
You know we hear that a lot.
I think our industry is beingdragged into the future kicking
and screaming.

David (00:41):
That's okay, that's okay.

Shannon (00:43):
Yeah.
So, dave, I've known you for awhile.
Could you go ahead andintroduce yourself to our
audience so they can get to knowyou too, and if you wouldn't
mind talking a little bit abouthow you got to where you are and
maybe give us a brief overviewof Aviation Training Academy as
well?

David (00:59):
Sure, well, kind of where do you start?
So I mean simply stated I gotmy start in 1987 with the
aviation arm of BP, britishPetroleum, the AirBP side of
things.
I answered an ad in thenewspaper or a headhunter as a
secretary for AirBP.

(01:19):
That was back when you couldactually say secretary and it
meant something from that sideof things instead of like an
administrative assistant orsomething like that.
So really, but started workingthere and then shortly
thereafter, after about a yearand a half in that position, the
young lady that was working theoperations side of things
decided to become a full timemom and that position opened and

(01:42):
I became the scheduler for allthe aviation fuels west of the
Rocky Mountains so that alsoincluded Alaska and Hawaii and
scheduled everything fromtransport trucks to the pipeline
, to the rail, to the barges,the large vessels of product
coming across the globe.
And obviously when you'redealing with big oil and major

(02:05):
oil companies you're always atrisk of going through some form
of a separation.
I guess, if you will, I made itthrough two of those separation
packages and the third one Ididn't make it through In 1994,
I was quote unquoteinvoluntarily separated and they
said it's time for you to go onon and do something else.
So I did and I started workingfor a petroleum inspection

(02:27):
company and was the inspectionmanager for there, for seven
inspectors that went out and didall the gauging and all that
type of thing and measuring ofthe pipelines and tank
calibrations and you know, thevessel and barge gauging and all
that type of thing, and and wetalk about this business being a
24-hour business you don'trealize what a 24-hour business
is until you're actually in a24-hour business where the phone

(02:50):
rang constantly, it doesn'tmatter what time of day or night
.
So in order to save my homelife, I left there and started
working for actually a petroleumtransport company where they
only transported actuallyaviation fuels, just the avgas
and the jet fuel, and there werefour terminals one in Seattle
Washington, one in BellinghamWashington, one in Los Angeles

(03:13):
and one in San Diego, california, and there was at one time at
our highest peak we had about110 drivers.
So that was an interesting taskand ultimately that that
company decided to pull out justbecause of certain issues with
regarding union workers and thattype of thing.
So I then moved over to startworking for an aviation fuel

(03:35):
supplier and after 10 years ofthat that company or actually I
think it was only two years ofthat that company merged did a
joint venture with none otherthan AirBP.
So I kind of came full circleand I was their operations
manager for the rest of mytenure there and as part of that
task we had seven inspectorsthat would go out to the

(03:58):
airports and perform the safetyand qualifying audits to all of
the branded dealers that thecompany had, as well as all the
terminals that they pulled fromfor the transport trucks and the
pipelines and as well as thetransportation side of it.
In addition to that, I was partof the training team.
So that's where I got a littlebit of the start of standing up

(04:18):
in front of people and talking,and you'll probably realize that
at the end of this podcast wow,this guy really likes to talk,
that's why we invited you, Dave.

Shannon (04:26):
Come on now.

David (04:30):
So during the latter part of that tenure there, we could
see where the company was headedand one of my current business
partners and I were the trainingteam and we could see where the
budget was going with regard tothe training and we decided it
was time for us to do this onour own.
And in 2012, myself, Mr WalterChartrand and Deborah Cavalcante

(04:52):
all came together and said it'stime for us to open up Aviation
Training Academy and togetherbetween us for these 12 years, I
mean, we've got the experiencein all aspects of airport
operations and soft skilltraining over 120 years of
experience just between thethree of us.
So I learn something new everyday, every place I go to and

(05:14):
meet new people.
It's a testament to how closeof a knit industry that we work
in and how passionate the peopleare that work in it want to be,
because obviously you'redealing with airplanes and the
industry motto is you can't pullover at 20,000 feet.

Shannon (05:30):
No, you can't, and it is a tight-knit community,
especially in Alaska.
Alaska flies to some of thestrangest places on earth and
the strangest conditions onearth.

David (05:40):
In addition to not being able to pull over at 20,000 feet
, there may not be a runwayavailable where you need to pull
over 100% and we spend quite abit of time every year up in
Alaska doing what we do and wesee that on a regular basis.
It's not necessarily done inthe same way, but the ideas and
the outcome, hopefully, isalways the same.
It was the best decision I evermade and I consider both my

(06:03):
partners you know, not onlybusiness partners, but dear
friends and they would doanything for me and vice versa,
so it's been a great deal.

Shannon (06:11):
Yep, if you were meant to be an entrepreneur, it feels
real great when you finally getthere.
Yeah, places.
Yeah, yeah.
So your your career arc.
You gained a ton of experienceand then channeled that into a
partnership.
Aviation Training Academy doestraining, they do audits, and
then you guys also have donesome work with safety.

(06:32):
Is that right?

David (06:43):
Yeah, so when it might like any type of standard.
As time changes you know, thefuel changes and filtration
changes and aircraft changes alltake place.
Obviously the industry has tochange with that as well, and
one of those changes in the lastfew years talked about ensuring
that the fueling entity or thefueling operation had an SMS

(07:04):
program, which is a safetymanagement program.
In a nutshell, what that is isthat everybody pretty much has
standard operating procedures orprocedures on how they do a
task, as long as you do the taskthe way that the procedure is
written.
That's basically the check andbalance.
If, for some reason, though, ifI have the standard operating

(07:25):
procedure written one way, but Ido the task a different way,
either the safety managementsystem or standard operating
procedure has to change, or howyou do the task has to change so
that they mirror one another.
So that's, in essence, a safetymanagement system program.
In addition, they're lookingfor A-103 in a recent update

(07:45):
came out where they want to makesure that people have some form
of human factors trained.
So often when incidents takeplace, there's some form of a
root cause analysis that'sperformed, especially if there's
an aircraft incident, you know,the NTSB comes out and does
their investigation and a yearand a half or two years later
they come out with the resultsof that investigation.
Well, performing a risk reviewor a risk analysis after the

(08:09):
fact and and what took place,type of thing, they determine
that there's 12 or 13 differenthuman factors that are always in
place, that are always that oneof those 12 items or one of
those 12 areas actually cameinto the cause of that incident
or that accident.
So having an awareness levelprogram for human factors is key

(08:30):
and quite frankly that's one ofthe FAA requires.
For instance, the aircraftmaintenance personnel every year
have to go through eight hoursof training that dovetail around
human factors and that'sliterally in order for them to
keep their maintenance licensethey have to go through that.
So it's kind of changing andthe world obviously is changing

(08:50):
and so isn't the training andthe requirements and the
standards.

Shannon (08:53):
I'm glad to see it changing.
I think regulations areaffecting the ATA 103 and the
SMS requirements as well,because we, on our end, from the
regulatory perspective, we knowthat the Clean Air Act and the
Clean Water Act have brought alot of changes to how things are
stored, how things aremaintained, and the record
keeping for what you guys aredoing under the ATA 103

(09:15):
dovetails along with some of theEPA and state and local
requirements too, and so theyall interact together in this
ecosystem.
Which is why I'm glad you cametoday, because I think in the
aviation industry there's athere's a focus on ATA 103 or a
focus on environmentalregulations, but they aren't
seeing the connection betweenthe two, and we know they're
connected.

David (09:34):
So absolutely Absolutely.
And I mean, after meeting youall up there, I got to tell you
I envy your knowledge of whatyou have to deal with.
I can help you write some boardof stormwater plan or something
like that, but, gosh almighty,you guys at least know the ins
and outs of it without even youknow.
I've been blinking an eye and Ienvy that.
So good on you.

Shannon (09:53):
I think both of us benefit from having a knowledge
of the operations.
It's very easy to write apermit if you don't know how
people actually work.
But if you are knowledgeableabout how people are literally
and physically moving theproduct from all the different
stages, it's a harder permit towrite because you're trying to
write that standard operatingprocedure to meet the regulation

(10:14):
but also what people are doingin the field.
I do feel there's a lot of roomfor improvement, from
consultants and trainers tocreate trainings and permits
that incorporate the humanfactor, that say okay, I can
write this all day long to bethis way, but if the guy has to
stand on top of a truck forthree hours in a rainstorm to
accomplish it, no human is goingto enjoy that.

(10:35):
They're going to find shortcutsaround it and so yeah, so so I'm
I'm really glad you're heretoday, and I think we should
talk about ATA 103, becausethat's the's the genesis.
You said it's an industrystandard, it's part of the
fabric of operating at everymajor airport in the nation, and
probably internationally too, Ihave a feeling.
So could you give us like abroad overview of ATA-103 for

(10:57):
people who are not familiar withthat standard?

David (10:59):
Yeah, and actually it's interesting that the ATA-103 is
more of a US standard and youknow, obviously, the 50 states.
So if you go to Canada, theyhave a different standard.
If you go to Mexico or Europeor, you know, in the Middle East
, I mean, they have a differentstandard as well.
However, it still dovetails allaround the same.

(11:20):
I mean, I ask the question.
Usually at every type of fuelhandling class that we have, I
ask the question do they handlefuel differently in other parts
of the world?
And at most everybody says, ohyeah, absolutely Well, they
really don't.
They sump a filter vessel underpressure.
They make sure they do it everyday.
They sump, they drain, theytest, they perform gravities or

(11:41):
densities or millipores.
I mean it's all done in thesame.
It might be differentfrequencies, but the tests and
what they're looking for is allthe same.
It's just a matter of how, theinterpretation, and in this case
, at-103 is the US guideline.
So yeah, to answer the questionand kind of give you an idea of
what it's about, I mean so theAirlines for America, and their

(12:04):
little acronym is A, the numberfour, and A it's a US airline
members that gather togetherthat advocate on behalf of the
American airline industry forsafety, customer service,
environmental responsibility.
Back in 1986, the industryrealized that there was a gap in
their expectations andspecifically how the fueling

(12:24):
agents around the us managed andmaintained the quality of that
aviation fuel.
So ata and one of the airlinesfor america at the time came out
, came out with this industrystandard.
Over the years there's beengosh almighty, maybe probably 10
or 15, probably closer to 15different updates on it and I'm
surprised, honestly, dave, thatit's not older 86,.

(12:46):
well, you and I are of an age,but 86 seems really recent to me
for standard fueling practicesfor yeah exactly Exactly, but,
interestingly enough, yeah, itdoesn't seem like that long ago,
but the changes that have takenplace over the years have, in
some cases, been fairly dramatic.

(13:06):
But recently, more recentlyprobably, since 2017 really is
when they've kind of goteverything figured out and it's
more just kind of, I guess,tweaking it a little bit.
Obviously there's some as theindustry impressive, I guess, if
you will a more technologicaltype of filtration and testing,
and they're trying to take a lotof the human element out of it.

(13:29):
But when everything's all saidand done, you're still dealing
with people and that's why thosehuman factors, requirements and
recommendations are out there.
I mean, I don't really see inmy future anyway, you know
aircrafts being fueledautomatically by themselves,
without somebody hooking up ahose from something to something
.

Shannon (13:45):
Maybe in another 50 years.
I'm imagining like dairy cowsgoing through and getting hooked
up to the milking machine.
I have a few airlines that mayhave something similar someday.
But so the ATA-103 standard is.
It's a set of guidelines forhow to store and manage fuel to
ensure fuel quality.
Correct, it's all about fuelquality.

David (14:05):
Correct In essence it's really it's.
The purpose of it is to simplyprovide a guideline on what's
expected, on how to manage andmaintain the quality of the fuel
to, in essence, because it wasmanaged or it's managed by the
commercial airline industry.
They're looking from thecommercial flying public and the
caveat is that since it'sconsidered an aviation standard,

(14:28):
it's considered the Bible whenit comes to any kind of aviation
industry.
So it's especially if somethingbad happens, because
unfortunately, we're probablythree times a year, on average
about three times a year we getasked in a phone call from an
attorney and we get called in tobe expert witnesses on certain
cases which obviously, most ofthe time are involving money and

(14:51):
people's lives.
And that's just, and it's just asad part of the door, what
we've chosen to do so money,lives and insurance companies,
yep yep, and if you don't do itright, it's going to cost you
money and typically it's goingto get you into a court of law
and unfortunately, like you said, we're dealing with people's
lives.

Shannon (15:09):
In the background of the aviation industry and we're
primarily operating in Alaskaand Washington State.
But what we see ATA 103 cominginto play is in contracts
between commercial airlines andfuel providers that are local.
They have local facilities, andthen we see enforcement, either
coming from the commercialairline auditing their vendors

(15:30):
or, like you said, aninvestigation occurs and they've
got all this record keepingthat they're supposed to be
doing and these records can feedinto the.
This obviously wasn't part ofthe problem, so it can be a
defensive piece of recordkeeping for our clients, the
vendors.
Could you talk a little bitabout who uses ATA-103
specifically, what differentparts of the aviation
infrastructure use ATA-103 andhow do they both look at the

(15:53):
record keeping that comes out ofit?

David (15:55):
Yeah, really anyone, anyone that's fueling an
aircraft should follow them.
I mean, again, we get a lot ofquestions or we get a lot of
comments when we come out andstart doing some training or
even an audit or a quickinspection or something like
that, and say, well, we don'tfuel airlines, so we're not
abide by that guideline.
You go back to, well ifsomething bad happens.

(16:18):
But, truthfully, whoever uses,whoever fuels an aircraft should
be using these.
I mean, they're, in essence,minimum standards Everything
from the infrastructure it couldbe from anybody that stores,
transports, flows, fuel filters,fuel pumps, fuel and I'm
talking about aviation fuelwithin that airport operating
area.

(16:42):
So if you're outside of thatairport operating area in other
words, you're a petroleumterminal that supplies the
airport there's a bit ofdifferent criteria and a
different standard that thoseentities would ultimately end up
having to go by.
But the requirements onsampling and testing and that
type of thing are all the same.
It's just a frequency typething.
But they're also dealing withmuch, much higher and larger
volumes and typically they'remeasuring these volumes and

(17:04):
barrels, not gallons what we dowith at the airport.

Shannon (17:07):
Or pounds that one always throws me for a loop, or
pounds I'm like pounds, oh okay.
So pretty much, if we're at anairport, there's ATA forms and
they cover everything from thetanks themselves, and these are
tanks that are directlysupplying aircraft with fuel, or
they are located at an airportand they are being drawn down

(17:28):
from to supply aircraft.
So if you're using a refuelertruck and you're pulling up to
this tank and then you take thetruck to the aircraft, both the
truck and the tank are subjectto these ATA-103 forms, and then
there's also hydrant system andpiping that are connecting all
of these pieces.
Those are subject to ATA 103 aswell, correct?

David (17:48):
Correct, correct.

Shannon (17:51):
Okay.
So the ATA 103 standard isamazing.
It provides these forms Likewhat are we checking?
Like, what does ATA 103 want tomake sure that we do?
I've got a few examples.
I know fuel quality we'vetalked about.
So what are they looking forwith fuel quality, for example?

David (18:08):
Yeah, it's interesting and that's a great question.
So basically, you know, whatthey're looking for is
abnormalities.
So when that product ismanufactured and refined at the
refinery it creates to start offwith, but when it comes out of
the refinery distillation tower,they do a refinery certificate

(18:31):
of quality.
So they literally create whatwe call the birth certificate of
the fuel.
It moves from that refinerywe'll call it the rundown tank
to a shipping tank where theycreate what's called a
certificate of analysis.
That is then what moves downeither the pipeline or the barge
or the vessel or the truck tothe airport or a breakout
storage.
So every time that product moveswe need to verify the product

(18:54):
quality of that, that fuel andthat there's in the and the lack
of contamination.
So that's in essence what thisdocument do.
That's in essence what thisdocument do.
That's in essence what they'reasking these people to do is
verify that from the previoustime that we did that particular
test, that nothing has happenedto the fuel and it's still
within the standard in which wewere expecting.

(19:15):
So, for example, it could be.
You know the frequency of thetests or the sampling.
I mean we need to sample andsump the tanks, the refueler
tanks filters every day.
So the idea is we're going torate that sample based on a
scale and we're looking for anykind of solids and moisture and

(19:37):
there's a grading scale based onthat.
And if, for today, in a goodsample, the best sample we would
look for is a 1A, meaning oneit's free of any kind of solid
contaminants, and A means it'sfree of any kind of visible
moisture.

Shannon (19:50):
And then, just for the point, for our listeners that
are not as aviation minded asyou and I, moisture is just
water.
Water in the fuel.

David (19:58):
Correct.
Correct and actually, thedescription of water.
There's a couple of differenttypes of descriptions.
One is entrained water orsuspended water, and that's the
water that hasn't actuallyfallen out of solution.
So, for example, if I was tolook into a sample jar or a
white bucket and I can't seeclearly to the bottom of the
sample bucket or that clearglass jar, that could be a sign

(20:21):
of suspended water or water thathasn't fallen out of solution.
So we typically will call thatentrained water or suspended
water.
And then there's water that hasactually coalesced, meaning
come together in large enoughdroplets where it's heavier than
the fuel, and it falls to thebottom of the bucket where I can
clearly see a difference in thewater versus where the fuel is.

(20:45):
So there's a distinctsegregation between those two.
That's from the moisture side.
Yeah, there's five grades ofmoisture level and we always
want to make sure that from thevisible eye, the naked eye, we
don't see any type of moisture,regardless of whether it's
suspended or free.

Shannon (21:01):
So let's talk about the other side of this the sediment
and anything particulates.
What shows up on that side?

David (21:08):
The industry really likes us to filter for water and
particulates every time theproduct is moved.
So, for example, if I move theproduct from my tank farm to the
refueling vehicle, it'sfiltered for water and
particulates vehicle.
It's filtered for water andparticulates the typical
filtration.
It removes dirt and willseparate out moisture down to
one micron.

(21:28):
A lot of people don't know whata micron is.
A micron is basically amillionth of a meter, so it's
really really small.
And to give that an idea inlayman's terms, typically your
vision, the naked eye, can seeto about 40 micron.
So your human hair follicle isabout 70 micron.
So we're filtering fuel to thepoint where you should not be

(21:51):
able to see the particulatethat's in that fuel.
If I start seeing particulatesin my fuel, I need to start
thinking, okay, where is thisparticulate coming from?
And that's really and trulywhat.
When we started talking about,you know, the ATA-103 and what
does it do and what are theylooking for?
And we spoke about we'relooking for abnormalities.
Well, that could be potentiallyan abnormality.
We just got to figure out wherethat contamination is coming

(22:13):
from.

Shannon (22:14):
What part of our system broke down to allow this.

David (22:17):
What part of our system broke down and it could be
something simply asenvironmental.
I mean, a lot of the pointswhere these samples and sumps
are drawn are right out in theelements and obviously, as you
know anybody that you know outin the elements in Alaska you
have a lot of dirt and soil andsalt and snow and rain and
elements like that that can geton the actual fittings and

(22:43):
they're aluminum fittings andaluminum is an extremely porous
material, so those dirtparticles can get inside that
and that's what you'reultimately seeing.
You can't, you can't anticipateand you can't say okay, yeah,
well, that that thatcontamination is coming from
that porous metal, aluminum.
So I'm not going to continue tosump until I've got a clear
sample.

Shannon (22:58):
No, we've got to truly figure out where it's actually
coming from you've got to checkthe whole system all the way
back, so let me test myknowledge here.
So I think particulatessomething physical.
They can be like flakes of rust, they can be sediment that's
blown into the vent of a tankand settled to the bottom of the
tank.
They can be little particulatesthat have come out from the

(23:19):
hose or any point along thedistribution system or somehow
forced through the filtrationsystem, or even, like you said,
collected on the nozzle.
But they can also be biologicalright, there can be microbes or
algae in this.
So let's talk about algae for aminute, because I know uh, at
least in rural Alaska, that's abig concern it's my favorite
subject I know you love it somuch yeah.

David (23:42):
So interestingly enough, I mean, and the idea behind it
is so you get down to thegrassroots of it and there are
microbes, microbial infestation,in the air that we breathe.
So it's not until it comes incontact with a hydrocarbon.
The hydrocarbon being the fuelis when it really starts to

(24:02):
manifest.
Typically where we see it is instorage tank, when operators
don't efficiently sump the tankto obtain a true representative
sample of the fuel in the tank.
And typically, when you sumpthe tank, you're sumping it out
of the bottom, the low point ofthe tank, because of course the
water is going to be heavierthan the fuel.

(24:23):
So that's, in essence, wherethe microbes are going to live.
So the microbes live in in thewater phase and where that water
phase meets the hydrocarbon orthe fuel they feed, those
microbes feed off of thehydrocarbon.
Their waste byproduct is sulfur.
So so when we start mixingwater and sulfur, we create

(24:47):
sulfuric acid.
Sulfuric acid then begins tostart to manifest itself into
basically putting holes and pitsin the storage tanks.

Shannon (24:56):
From the tank all the way to distribution.
Yep.

David (24:58):
Absolutely, and it's extremely difficult to get rid
of it.
These microbes can double theirsize every 20 minutes, so a
little problem can become a bigproblem really really fast.
But the one common thing theyhave to have is moisture.
So that's why the industryspends so much time making sure

(25:21):
that we get rid of the water,making sure we sump for the
water, get the water out, makingsure that we filter for the
water and get it out.

Shannon (25:29):
Could we talk about some best practices for water
sumping, because I know in myexperience we've seen some water
draw setups that are notcompliant, like the water draw
isn't at the lowest point of thetank anymore, or it's an inch
off the bottom of the tank andyou can have up to an inch of
water in your tank.
So I do realize that there aresome physical constraints and if

(25:52):
you're listening to this rightnow and you think that that's
something that's wrong with yourtank and why you keep getting
microbes in it, get a goodengineer and a good repair
contractor and fix it.
But other than that, assumingthat the equipment inside the
tank is going to physicallywithdraw the water, what are
some like best practices aroundwater draw management?
ATA says every day, every day.

(26:12):
But we have intermittentservice in a lot of rural Alaska
where you might only haveaircraft once every few days.
So what does ATA say aboutwater draws and how should we
implement that all over?

David (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean without question, and I always
like to say, and we always liketo say that we live in the real
world yeah, there's some places,small locations, that don't
have a lot of activity on aregular basis, especially on a
daily basis, and they may onlybe manned Monday through Friday
or something like that, andmaybe only daylight hours, and
they're not a 24 hour operation.

(26:47):
We understand that.
The industry says yeah, I meanATA10 says daily sumps of the
tank, the refueling tank, thefilters, every sump, every day.
You got to keep in mind thatthis standard was written for a
major airport or an airport thathas commercial service, so
those types of airports aretheoretically going to be open
the majority of the day, if not24 hours, if they're very close

(27:09):
to that, but at least every dayenough to perform this task or
those tasks.

Shannon (27:13):
And millions of gallons of throughput, not 150 gallons
of throughput or 400.

David (27:20):
So we take those smaller operations and say, look, okay,
here's the deal.
You know, if you've got your,your activity is Monday through
Friday.
Do the tasks Monday throughfriday.
If you have an, a fuelingoperation or a fueling
opportunity that you actuallyhave to go fuel an aircraft and
a lot of the places they're acall out type of thing and

(27:41):
before, the key thing is, beforeyou fuel that aircraft from
perform those tasks, performthose daily tasks to ensure that
refueling vehicle or your youknow, your self-serve island or
whatever the case may be hasgone through that and not only
done the task but documented it,because we all know that if,
yes, you don't do the task, andyou know if you do the task and

(28:02):
you don't, or if you do the taskand you don't write it down, it
didn't happen.

Shannon (28:06):
And from a corporate level like if you are
responsible for a fuelingprogram at a commercial airport,
regardless of the volume thatyou are throughput in your
facility that those recordsbecome really critical when
there are things likeinvestigations and contract
negotiations, because havingthose records show that your
crew is doing it and it's partof the fuel handoff.

(28:28):
You're saying I delivered aquality product and here's how I
know.
I know that it didn't havethese contaminations because I
did the check.
Here's my documentation.
Here's my milliport sample.
Like, all of those things arepart of a program that creates a
good handoff to when you giveit to the commercial entity.

David (28:46):
Absolutely, and I've seen , unfortunately, in my 30 plus
however many years, I don't know, I didn't do the math from 1987
, but we see it so often.
As you know, we did the taskand well, it's not written down
Well, and well it's not writtendown Well, I know I did it.

(29:07):
But the idea is that ifsomething bad happens and we'll,
we'll take everybody to thatpart of it If something bad
happens, one of the first thingthat that, especially from an
aircraft perspective, if there'san accident or incident, the
first thing that theinvestigators are going to do is
going to find out where thataircraft field lasts.
And then they're going to comevisit and they're going to ask
you for your everything, foryour training records, to your q
records, and they're going togo through them and if those if

(29:30):
they're, they're incomplete orthey're inconsistent or there's
gaps and no documentation andlike, for example, we'll even
say if you don't use theequipment, don't just leave it
blank.
There's a little code at thebottom that says NU, meaning not
used, use that.
That's the best way to go,because that tells you that you
actually didn't do the task,because the equipment didn't get

(29:50):
used that day.
So if the investigators come andthey see that your training
records are lax and there'sreally nothing there.
And you look at your QC recordsand they're just kind of
disheveled and not in any kindof organization.
They're going to makethemselves at home, they're
going to spend some time at yourlocation and that's not a very
good time, especially when theystart looking at samples coming
out of your facility if they'renot acceptable.

(30:12):
But if your training recordsare in order and your quality
control records are in order andit's clear that the person and
the persons that are doing thetests and the QC checks it's
going to be a cursory inspectionbecause they pretty much have
an idea of what took placebefore they got over there just
from some of the reports theyget, especially with you know
you've got video of everybody'slooking at you all the time, so

(30:33):
the videos and the witnesses,that type of thing, and so if
you've got your QC records andtraining records in order, it's
going to be a cursory inspection.
Say thanks for the time,appreciate your help, we'll move
forward.
But if it's not, it's not fun.
We've been involved.

Shannon (30:51):
No, we've gotten called in to assist with recovery
after an investigation like that.
They were dinged prettyseverely for lack of records and
we were able to assist.
But what I like about yourcompany, Dave, is I have other
podcast episodes where we talkabout the three things that make
record keeping successful.
And one is contextunderstanding why you're doing

(31:12):
something and what theconsequences will be if you
don't do something.
And your firm's really goodabout providing the context in
plain English and saying, justlike you said, if you don't use
it, write down NU and make sureyour butt's covered and you know
all the things.
And then we also talk abouthaving the right forms and
making sure that you've got agood list of what they're
supposed to be doing and they'retrained how to do them.

(31:34):
And then the last piece isaccountability that they know
they're supposed to do it andtheir supervisor is checking and
making sure that it's gettingdone.
And if you have all three ofthose things, record keeping
does really well.
But I'm sure you find if one ofthose pieces is missing, if
they don't understand whatthey're doing or lack the
training, the forms can befilled out perfectly every time,
but they're pencil whipped.

(31:54):
There's nothing good in there,it's usable.
And if you have the trainingand the forms but nobody's
checking that they get done, oneof those human factors shows up
and all of those things playinto how records get produced
and used and hopefully ourlisteners will tie those two
together that you can't just payfor a training and have it go.

(32:14):
You've got to have a trainingand the right forms in place and
accountability.
But firms like ours helpbolster up maybe where you're
weak in that three-legged stoolscenario.
So 103, let's talk about theforms, because it's my favorite.
There's so many.
We actually got a listenerquestion about this, Dave, so
I'm really glad you're here.
They wanted to know what thedifference between a tank and a

(32:37):
refueler was in relation to the103 forms, because there's a lot
of forms for tanks and there'sa lot of forms for refuelers.
It's a little difficult incontext because a lot of people
call fuel trucks tanker trucksor tank trucks.
So could you go over what arefueler is and what a tank is
in the eyes of ATA 103?
I think that'll help.

David (32:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
When they're talking about astorage tank or a tank, they're
talking about literally thestorage tank where the fuel is
stored in the larger quantities,and they started all the way
back to the refinery.
Those are the storage tankswhere the fuel is held and, in
response to ATA-103, it's wherethe product is held at the
airport.
So from there the product ismoved or pumped from those

(33:20):
storage tanks and it could beeither via pipeline or transport
truck or other means to theairport, and then the airport
then goes from their tankageinto we call them refueling
vehicles, some people just callthem refuelers, but other people
call the person that's actuallydoing the refueling refueler.

(33:41):
Yes, so we yeah yeah, you knowthere's several different
terminology.
You know names that thosepersonnel are called.
But so the tankage, the storagetank, is where the product is
held, as in a stationary tank.
The refueling vehicle, however,is the mechanism where it's a
chassis mounted tank on arefueling vehicle that takes the

(34:03):
product from the storage tankat the airport to the airplane
itself.

Shannon (34:07):
So, dave, there's a variety of forms with 103.
Could you just give us a briefoverview of what they're
checking with these forms,because there's kind of sections
within the forms.
We just talked about therefuelers, so there's a section
of forms specific to therefuelers themselves and there
are sections to the storage tank.
Are there any other sections?

David (34:25):
yeah.
So if your location has hydrant, so that hydrant system would
basically be, you'd have astorage tank and sometimes it
could be off the airportoperating area, could be off in
a little bit of a satellitelocation where the, the pipeline
, is underneath the ground andit goes all the way literally to
the, the gate where theaircraft is loading and

(34:49):
unloading passengers and andbaggage.
So literally there's a, there'sa, um, a fitting underneath the
ground where a lid is lifted upand what's pulled up is what
they call a hydrant truck andthe hydrant yeah.
Yeah, that's all it is.
So all that hydrant truck isthere.
That's just the transitionbetween the, the, the hydrant

(35:09):
pit and the aircraft.
So it's got, you know, hose,it's got a filter, it's got you
know all the different apparatusyou have.
But the pressure comes from thepumps on the hydrant system.
So the, the, the hydrant truck,doesn't have any pumping to it.
It's got the meter and it's gotfire extinguishers and dead man
and all that type of thing.
But that's just the transitionbetween the hydrant pit and the

(35:31):
actual aircraft itself.
So there's a section on that,there's a section, obviously, on
the tankage, there's a sectionon the refueling vehicle and
there's also a section talkingabout how to receive the load of
fuel from the highway roadtransport carrier.

Shannon (35:45):
In Alaska that's often a barge.
It can also be from the roadsystem or exempt from that.

David (35:52):
Yeah, so the barges are going to go typically into,
could go into an over the roadtruck or could go into breakout
storage that type of thing.
So that would be under adifferent standard.
Actually, because that's offairport, that's going to be
under a different standard andtypically that's going to be
what's called API, so theAmerican Petroleum Institute

(36:12):
standard 1595, so API 1595.
And again, handling aviationfuels off airport at these
petroleum terminals.
Again they do the same stuff,they do the testing, they do the
millipores, they do the testing, but it's done on a much, much
higher level.
In other words, it's a lothigher volume.

(36:33):
So instead of pulling a sampleout of a 20,000-gallon storage
tank and getting a gallon and ahalf to look if there's any
contaminants, these guys arehauling off in some cases one or
200 gallons just to check thebottom of the tank.
So that's how large it is.
Those are the additional checksfor what ATA has in there.

Shannon (36:52):
Okay, thank you for that overview.
And then when you're looking atthe ATA-103 forms, when you
purchase the standard and youget that Excel sheet with all of
the things in it, you're onlyrequired to do the ones that
apply to your facility, correct?
If you don't have a hydrantsystem, you don't need to do the
hydrant forms.

David (37:09):
Correct, 100% correct.
Yes.

Shannon (37:11):
But most of us have storage tanks and refuelers and
those do need to be performed.

David (37:15):
One of the things we get asked to do a lot.

Shannon (37:17):
Is they show up?

David (37:17):
and they say look at all these forms, Do we have to do
them?

Shannon (37:20):
all and the answer is yes.
If you are fueling aircraft atan airport, you do, and it's
usually tied to the contract.
For most of our clients,they've got a contract with a
commercial air carrier andthat's one of the requirements.
Some, like Alaska Airlines,have their own system that
incorporates ATA-103, but hasmore stuff on top.

David (37:38):
You know, one of the things that we pass on to the
people that attend our trainingand the stuff we go out and do
is the hardest thing that you'regoing to have to do is when you
take a sample of the fuel thatyou've looked at every day for
the past 30 days and you get thesame result.
It's extremely difficult to youknow when you rate the sample.

(37:59):
There's no contamination inthis.
There was no contamination init yesterday.
There was no contamination init yesterday.
There was no contamination init two days ago, and so on and
so on.
That's the hardest thing to do.
But what happens if it's not?
What happens if it's notperfect?
What happens if there'ssomething in it?
What do I do?
Do I completely shut theairport down?
What do I do?
And that's where these taskscome in.

(38:21):
To say so again, you're justlooking for abnormalities.

Shannon (38:25):
And they really can occur.
At any time Something insideyour system can break or become
overwhelmed.
A lot of aviationinfrastructure gets heavy use.
It's putting lots of gallonsthrough and, conversely, some of
our remote locations they havevery low use and that's just as
hard on infrastructure as highuse because they're not getting
wetted daily, they're not havingthings being flushed out In the

(38:46):
middle is the sweet spot, butreally high volumes and really
low volumes.
It becomes very critical to dothese tasks and you're right,
the mental piece of doing itagain today, when it was fine
for the last 13 days straight,can be very challenging.
We we recommend that you shakeup who does it on a frequent
basis, because you will alsoavoid uh situation blindness,

(39:06):
right like oh, yep, it's fineagain.

David (39:08):
Yep, it's fine again, shake it up yep, and in Alaska,
I understand, it gets reallycold.
So you know it's out in Bethel,Alaska, in in the middle of
February when it's 40 below andyou're asked to go out and do a,
you know, just sample the tank.
That's not easy, that's hard,and to make sure that people
understand the importance ofdoing it every day, you know I

(39:31):
mean you got to make it easy forthem to do it.
You can't make it difficult forthem to do it.
But you know I mean you got tomake it easy for them to do it.
You can't make it difficult forthem to do it.
But you know, unfortunatelyit's got to get done every day.

Shannon (39:39):
And if I had a soapbox to stand on right now, I would
say that for my crew or for myclients, because a lot of our
infrastructure doesn't have easywater draw mechanisms, it's
actually pretty difficult to dothis and we have another episode
planned on water draws but alot.
There's a lot of misconceptions.

(39:59):
Where they turn it on, they'relike, yep, just fuel in there.
But you actually have to drawthe volume of the water draw
pipe out because that's all fullof fuel and before you would
ever reach any water at thebottom of the tank.
And so we've definitely seencases before where people have
drawn out a gallon and a halfand still had lots of water in
the tank because they just neverquite got to it, because

(40:21):
they'll draw it out and then itfills back up with fuel again.
And what clients can do to makeit better is to label their
water draws with the minimumfuel amount so that they know
they have to draw at least threeand a half gallons, or five
gallons depending on how big thetank is.
And also so you're prepared youdon't bring a five gallon
bucket to a 10 gallon party andthen just making the water draws

(40:43):
easier, If it's in the top of ahorizontal tank, make sure that
the hand pump is installed andthere's, you know, the drop pipe
to the bottom of the tank isthere and the tank was installed
at the correct grade so thatthe water's where it's supposed
to be.
Like, all of those things canmake compliance with these
regulations a lot easier on thepersonnel doing them.

David (41:02):
Absolutely.
And to take that a step furtheris to ensure that we have some
sort of bonding grounding cableon my sampling apparatus,
because anytime that we movefuel, fall fuel through the air
or filter fuel, we're generatingstatic electricity and it's
it's not that it happens everyday.

(41:22):
But if I can, you know, if Ican mitigate it and all together
then I'd much rather do thatthan just you know what.
Today's not the day, today'snot going to be the day that
this happens and all of a suddenit does happen.
Because unfortunately it doeshappen.
And all of a sudden it doeshappen, because unfortunately it
does happen, make consequenceswhen it does happen.
So that's the thing.
So often, you know, justfueling aircraft, I mean, it's

(41:43):
almost a natural habit to attachthe bonding cable from the
refueling vehicle to theaircraft.
Well, what about when I'msampling my buckets or my filter
system or my tank, I'm notgenerating static electricity?
Well, in fact you are.
So we see that I don't like touse the word all the time, but
unfortunately, you know, it'sabout 95% of the time.

(42:05):
There's a lot of people thatjust don't understand that.

Shannon (42:09):
It's a very common ATA 103 audit finding.
The lack of grounding atdifferent parts of the process
is probably the number onefinding, and then the number two
finding is lack of filtrationdocumentation like when did you
last change this filter.
It's not clearly marked, it'snot in a record somewhere, they
just are like oh, Ricky did itin July, but it needs to be

(42:33):
marked somewhere clear and easyfor everyone to see I don't know
, do you?
have any other common auditfindings that you would like to
share with us, in casesomebody's responsible for ATA
compliance out there?

David (42:43):
Yes, I have one extremely good one.
All of our filter vessels havea rated flow.
So the manufacturer willprovide on the side of the
filter vessel the rated flow ofthe filter.
So, as far as when theymanufactured the filters and the
elements and the housing andeverything that goes along with
it, it says this filter willfilter X amount of gallons per

(43:05):
minute.
There's also what's called adifferential pressure gauge that
attaches to the inlet and theoutlet of the filter vessel.
That tells us what thedifference in inlet being the
higher pressure, versus theoutlet pressure, which is the
low pressure side.
It tells us how dirty or cleanour filters are the industry has
had for years and years andyears.

(43:26):
The maximum differentialpressure is going to be 15 psi,
pounds per square inch.
The caveat is it's 15 PSI atthe rated flow.

Shannon (43:37):
Not at rest.

David (43:38):
Not at rest.

Shannon (43:39):
That is a good one.

David (43:41):
Or not at half of the rated flow.
So in other words, if I'mflowing at 300 gallons a minute,
in that example the maximumdifferential pressure I can have
is 15 PSI.
At that point I have to changemy elements.
Well, what if I don't get to300 gallons per minute?
What if I'm only flowing at 150gallons per minute?
Well, I'm no longer looking for15 PSI, since I'm only flowing

(44:03):
at 50% of the rated flow at 150gallons.
Now I'm no longer looking for15 PSI, I'm looking for 50% of
that, psi being seven and a half.
So so often we go up and seepeople writing down differential
pressures of you know seven,eight, nine.
But you look in and they seewhat their flow rate is and it's

(44:24):
half of what the flow rateshould be on the filter.
So by that time, if you trulywere flowing at the rated flow
of that filter vessel, you'reabove that 15 PSI, in danger of
of bursting your filters and nothaving any filters any longer.

Shannon (44:39):
And for those who are not knowledgeable, what does
that high psi indicate?

David (44:44):
Dave.
So there's a couple ofdifferent types of filter
elements that are out there, forexample, your two-stage filter
element, which is a coalescerseparator, where it collects the
dirt and separates out thewater and that collects the dirt
.
There's a higher resistance, soit's almost like your vacuum
cleaner, where the vacuumcleaner has a hard time sucking
up more dirt if it's plugged up,so there's a higher pressure

(45:09):
going in than coming out.
So what that tells us is thehigher differential pressure
tells us that our filterelements are getting plugged, in
this instance with solidmaterial, solid particulate,
with a monitor, a filter monitorvessel that works almost like a
pamper's diaper.
It utilizes a superabsorbentpolymer where it actually

(45:30):
absorbs the moisture, themoisture.
So when that moisture, whenthat super absorbent polymer,
you know, captures and collectsand absorbs the moisture, it's
harder to push the fuel throughit, giving us a higher
differential pressure, tellingus that those filters are
beginning to get plugged up.

Shannon (45:47):
It's exhausted the media and that's what's causing
the differential pressure.
Correct, okay.

David (45:53):
Unfortunately, those types of monitors are used on
lower flow rate systems, andthose lower flow rate systems
don't have what they call adirect read differential
pressure gauge.
Yes, so in order to readdifferential pressure, I have to
have flow through the filter inorder for me to read it.
If I look at that differentialpressure and I don't have any

(46:14):
flow through it, it's notmeasuring any pressure going in
or pressure going out, so it'sgoing to read zero.

Shannon (46:19):
So for that system you have to know the filtration type
and be able to tell that you'relike.
I don't have a reading on bothsides.
Therefore I have no reading.

David (46:28):
Correct.
You got to know what type offilter system you have so you
can identify.
If so, when I sump my filtervessel, if I have a monitor type
of filter vessel or elements,and I sump the filter and I find
water, I really shouldn't findwater in there because that
water should be absorbed in thatmedia.
So right off the bat I shouldyou know, while I'm flowing fuel

(46:50):
, that should indicate.
If I looked at my differentialpressure, I should see probably
a low reading, if not zero,Because that tells me that
there's no longer any.

Shannon (46:58):
Thank you for sharing that.
I feel like we're at the gospelof filtration right here,
because this is something thatis so misunderstood and you laid
it out so cleanly and clearly.
I really appreciate that.

David (47:10):
Absolutely, and that's unfortunately and you brought up
the point a little while agoabout making sure that people
not only know how to do the task, but why am I doing the task
and why am I doing the task inthat method?
I mean so often and that's kindof the method behind our madness
is that I can show you how todo it and most people will
understand how to do it.

(47:30):
But it's like when you were atwo-year-old, those questions
that all come out to say, well,why do we do it?
Why, why?
Why?
It's like when you were atwo-year-old, those questions
that all come out to say, well,why do we do it, why, why?
Why?
We find that if someoneunderstands why the task is done
in the way it is and what therepercussions are downstream, if
you don't do it in that way andwhy it's done that way, people
will not only understand how todo it, they will also continue

(47:53):
to do it that way because theyknow what the repercussions are
downstream and they feelcomfortable doing it because
they understand, like, what theconsequences are if they don't.

Shannon (47:59):
I think for a lot of people when they don't get
correct training, it can feellike there aren't any
consequences or there are poorconsequences.
You know like they're like, butthere can be heavy ones,
especially in the aviationindustry.
We, you know the risks are somuch higher on this side of the
transportation and storage.

David (48:16):
Absolutely.

Shannon (48:18):
All right.
Well, Dave, thank you fortaking us through that amazing
ATA 103 overview.
I was going to ask you if therewas a place people wanted to
learn more, where they couldfind more resources.
Do you have any ideas forpeople?

David (48:32):
Especially from the ATA 103 perspective.
I mean, my recommendation isjust I mean the website is
airlinesorg, so wwwairlinesorgGet in there and there's a
couple of tabs in there whereyou can just sign up, put your
email in there and you knowmaybe your phone number and your
name, and sign up for theperiodical things that come out,

(48:53):
and they have different typesof updates regarding things that
are happening within the A4A,but they also will include you
on distributions of hey, there'sa new ATA 103 specification
that's out, it's 2000 andwhatever, point whatever.
And typically once you get onthat mailing list you're not

(49:15):
going to get off unless you optout.

Shannon (49:17):
Forever, forever.
And then your company also hasresources available at their
website, correct?

David (49:24):
Yeah, we have a bunch of information on the website.
I mean, in essence, wwwav-r-ois our website.
We've got a ton of information,a lot of online training on
that website.
It's interesting, when we firstdeveloped the business,
probably back in 2000, itstarted in late 2011, and we

(49:47):
actually opened it in 2012.
Our goal was the way that theindustry was going.
The industry was really goingtowards more online training,
kind of checking the box typething.
So that's kind of how wedeveloped the programs and then
we'd host a training programevery now and then.
Well, fast forward, gosh.
Probably five or six yearsafter that.

(50:07):
I mean, we're now.
I can show you a picture of arefueling vehicle and I can show
you a picture of a filter and Ican show you a picture of a
tank farm, but it looks nothinglike anybody has.
So we've seen such an increaseand we'll literally come to your
location and train your peopleon your equipment, which is such
a benefit to the industry,especially the younger

(50:30):
generation coming up, and wehaven't had a lot of experience
in seeing some of the differenttypes of control valves and hose
and pressure control valves andnozzles and filtration.
It can be extremely, extremelycumbersome to get your way
through that if you don't have amentor at the location there to
help you out.
So we really pride ourselves onbeing able to, and that's why I
was mentioning to you I'm up inthe upper peninsula of Michigan

(50:52):
here this week.
A couple of these smallerairports and they jumped on the
opportunity for me to be up hereand train them on their
equipment.
They're 80 miles apart, buttheir equipment one person has a
1986 refueler, the other onehas a 2012.
So the equipment is so, sodiverse.

(51:13):
It's it's incredible.

Shannon (51:14):
So it's also very difficult to make a training
that can cover every possibleconfiguration at a commercial
airport in the United States.
There are so many differentcombinations.
You essentially end up with ageneric training.
That is a good start, maybe,but it's still not how to do
your job with this equipmentright here.
And we see that in our samething.

(51:36):
We can start with generalpermit requirements but we end
up writing to the specificfacility and what they're
actually doing with what they'redoing.
Exactly Because otherwise it'sso general.
It doesn't really provide anadequate training.
I don't think.

David (51:50):
Absolutely.
And you know, so often when wego to these places they're
saying you know, we're so happythat we found you guys, because
I don't like online training.
It's like, oh, we hear that ona regular basis.
And again, I mean, in essence,the online training is a good
thing to you know, to get youknow if you've gone through the
training you know every coupleof years or something like.

(52:12):
That's why a lot of the the,the places that we go to people
are asking us to come in andtrain their people on their
equipment because they have sucha young staff that have never
been around this kind of thing.

Shannon (52:21):
So it really was an irony.
I think that we have taken anindustry that people have
gravitated to because they likeworking outside, working with
their hands.
They're mechanically inclined.
You know they are, you knowthey're.
They're very familiar withinfrastructure and engineering
and putting things together intheir minds as they work, and

(52:42):
then we throw them in an onlinetraining where they're clicking
buttons.
That's very challenging forthis whole group, the whole
industry because we chose thisindustry for the hands-on
interactive piece.

David (52:54):
I couldn't have said it better.
It's just gosh almighty.
We take a kinesthetic learnerand put them in a classroom you
know and say, okay, learn fromhere.

Shannon (53:02):
Well, Dave, I have one last question for you that we
ask all of our guests Do youhave any fun stories or strange
occurrences that you'd like toshare with us, related to your
job or aviation, or anythinglike that?

David (53:16):
How long do we have on this podcast?
As long as you need.
I actually have two and I haveone that was interesting, that
took place here last year, andin conjunction with the ATA 103,
there's a couple of otherindustry standards and
regulations.
One of them is the NFPA-407.

(53:37):
So they kind of go hand in hand.
So the National Fire ProtectionAssociation under the guideline
and standard 407 has a lot todo and they dovetail back and
forth really well together.
The ATA-103.
Well, I went out to do this,gone to an in-person class and a
fuel handling class and we weregoing through some of the
labeling and placarding thatneeded to be on the refueling

(53:59):
vehicle and he said during theclasses is there any way that
you could come out and just kindof give us a cursory audit,
just kind of see how ourfacility ranks with everybody
else and let us know where wemay be deficient and help us out
?
I go absolutely.
So I went out the following dayand a young gentleman is
standing next to the refuelingvehicle, next to some of these
placards, and I'm walking aroundit and I had noticed it when I

(54:23):
first walked up.
The way the requirement is isthat for your emergency fuel
shutoff and the emergencyshutoff switch or button,
whatever you have on therefueling vehicle.
There's certain criteria as faras the letters and the similar
background and the wording, andit also says that the standard
says you should have an arrowpointing to the button and how
to operate it.
So, whether it's a push or pull, well, there's the emergency

(54:46):
fuel shut off lettering.
It's perfect.
There's the arrow and then theperson has literally the words
push or pull on the emergencyfuel shut off button.
And I started chuckling.
It had both, both.
He literally copied thestandard and put it onto a label
and put it on his refueler andhe was standing in front of it

(55:08):
and I started chuckling.
He goes you saw it, didn't you?
And I go yeah.

Shannon (55:13):
Push or pull.

David (55:16):
I said just take one of those off and you'll be fine.
Whatever way you actually haveto operate, it is good oh,
that's awesome.
The other quick story was uh, wewere in, um was out, and it was
, uh, like St Louis Missouri Ithink it was, or someplace in
Missouri, and it snowed and wehad come out to do an cursory
audit on this facility.
And we go in and start lookingat the paperwork and it was I

(55:39):
remember it very distinctivelyit was December 20th, it was a
Friday, and I noticed that allthe paperwork for the daily
checks was filled out to the22nd and I said, um, that's
really in my mind.
I say that's pretty interesting.
And I said so, how do you getto the 22nd?

(56:00):
And without, even, without evenflinching, he passes on to me.
He says, well, I'm not going tobe here the next two days.
So I said, okay, well, just bythe way, it might not be a good
way to fill out both of thesedays, so maybe you have someone
else that can fill it outinstead.
But let's go out and take alook at the rest of your
facility.
We look out in the rest of thefacility.
So on that Friday it was aboutnoontime when I went out there,

(56:20):
but he had already had hisFriday checks done.
It had a fresh fallen snow thenight before and there wasn't a
footprint in the snow, so wecall it the case of the floating
lineman.

Shannon (56:35):
We sing the whip it good song when we see that.

David (56:38):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Whip it, whip it.
Good, I'm going to, I'm goingto plagiarize that if you don't
mind.
Heck yeah.

Shannon (56:48):
Yeah, do it.
So the thing that gets me aboutthat is I guarantee that that
guy thought he was doing what hewas supposed to, which was
filling out the paperwork.
He was missing the context ofhaving to actually go do the
checks.

David (57:01):
And you've heard this, I know before, and it's like well,
that's what the guy wrotebefore me.

Shannon (57:06):
Yep, that's how I was trained to do it.
Or the other guy left and, youknow, no one's ever said
anything different.
Yeah, yep, Dave, what apleasure.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
I appreciate all your yearsexperience.
I am thankful that you said yesto this podcast and I'm glad
that we were your first one.

David (57:26):
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
So I appreciate the offer andthe invite and just pass on to
everybody.
I mean, I've given you the infoand by and by all means use
this as a resource and itdoesn't cost you anything.
I'd much rather say, if I cansave you time and trying to find
where this standard or thisregulation comes from and I can,
you know, shoot you over a key.

(57:47):
Here's kind of the excerpt ofwhat it's talking about.
Here's the interpretation ofthat.
I'd much rather have someonecall me, text me, email me than
spending two or three hourstrying to find it in what some
of these regulations that are,you know, as you know, are like
Bibles.

Shannon (58:00):
They are Absolutely, Dave.
We will include your name andphone number and your website
and we will include links to theairlinesorg and also the NFPA
407 and the API 1595, or whereyou can purchase those things.
Perfect, and that should coverall the resources.
Again, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time,dave.

David (58:19):
You're welcome to say hi to the girls.

Shannon (58:21):
for me, Okay, I will see ya.