September 22, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode, Amanda Spielman joins us to discuss a new, supportive approach to school inspections. We dive into how inspections can be reframed to help schools grow and improve rather than focusing solely on punitive measures. Amanda shares her vision for making the process more constructive and beneficial for educators and students alike.
Whether you're a school leader, teacher, or policymaker, this conversation provides valuable insights into how inspections can become a tool for positive change. Tune in for practical advice on creating a more supportive and growth-oriented education system.
Amanda's new chapter in Dubai is equally compelling. We examine the rapid evolution of education in the region, underscoring Amanda's role in fostering collaboration among educational leaders and advisers at GEMS Education.
Amanda's passion for educational innovation shines through, from the exciting teacher-led renaissance in England to the power of social media in uniting educators.
She also shares her thoughts on the importance of physical school environments post-COVID and the nuanced, often unseen elements that contribute to a school's success. Join us for an insightful conversation that's sure to inspire anyone passionate about the future of education.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
I am Lisa Grace.
Today I have Amanda Spielmanwith me on the podcast.
Amanda is the former Chief ofthe Inspector and she's
currently taking on a role withGEMS Education as the new chair
of their academic council.
Amanda is very much new to thisregion and so, before we jump
(00:38):
deep into the podcast, we wantto get to know who she is and we
want to humanize her a littlebit.
Not just the role, not just theprofessional, but the person.
Welcome to the podcast, amanda.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thank you very much, Lisa Grace.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's a pleasure to have you, Amanda.
Take us back to little Amanda.
Where did you grow up and whatwas your?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
childhood like.
I grew up mostly in Scotland.
My parents moved there when Iwas five.
My father worked for thegovernment and my mother was a
university lecturer and we werepart of a community that centred
around the university.
All my parents' friends, I seemto remember, were other
(01:23):
lecturers and teachers there,mostly people who didn't have
children.
So I spent a lot of timesitting in corners playing and
listening to adults talkingaround me which I guess is a
universal childhood experienceand lots of outdoor things going
, walking in the Scottish hills,sailing in dinghies, camping,
(01:44):
really making the most of whatScotland has to offer.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That sounds idyllic.
It really does.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It was mostly pretty lovely.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And tell me then, after your childhood, what led
you into education as a career.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I very much had a career of two halves.
I started out after doing lawat university, training as an
accountant, and I worked infinance and banking for 15 years
or so and I had an itch thatgradually built up that I wasn't
doing what I really wanted tobe doing.
And when I had time to stop andthink on one of my maternity
(02:24):
leaves to really think aboutwhat interested me and what I
wanted to be doing, I suddenlyrealized that ever since I was a
child myself, I'd readeverything I'd ever come across
about education.
So that was the moment Ithought, oh, I'd better do
something about it.
Then I went off to do amaster's in comparative
education, studying educationsystems in different countries,
and then looked for aninteresting role.
(02:46):
And one thing led to anotherWow.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And your time in education.
Where did that career lead?
You Give me sort of like theminiature CV version.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
The miniature CV version is.
I came out of my master'shugely enthused, really
interested in the kinds ofcurriculum and teaching that
made the biggest difference tothe children with the biggest
challenges, and looked aroundfor somewhere that I could use
that and I thought I might finda little part-time policy job
(03:19):
somewhere.
Well, my children were stillpretty small and I bumped into
the people who were setting upone of the first chains of
academy schools in England andbecame part of the top team
there and then from there Ibecame chair of the exam
regulator Ofqual.
I'd got really interested inassessment and all the
(03:41):
complexities around assessmentand I did that for six years and
then I became chief inspectorand was chief inspector for
seven years.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Wow, so it's a nice little pathway that led you the
winding way.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I've been incredibly lucky.
I never for one moment imaginedwhat I would do when I started
out on that master's course, butit's been so interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
How would you encapsulate your time at Ofsted?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It was just extraordinarily invigorating.
Ofsted isn't just about schools.
It covers post-16 education andearly years and social care.
Funnily enough, the piecearound schools, for some reason,
is always much more politicisedand much more pressured than
the other pieces, so it's goodto be able to calibrate the
different worlds against eachother.
(04:30):
We achieved a tremendous amountin my time at Ofsted In the
education world across fromearly years through schools and
post-16, we put in a new modelof inspection that's really
focused on substance ofeducation and integrity not just
are the results high enough,but really sort of looking
underneath at what's beingtaught and how it's being taught
(04:52):
and it's gone incredibly well.
The feedback is so positive onthat model and yet at the same
time in England the governmenthangs huge weight on inspection,
so a big part of the job istrying to manage and navigate
the pressures that theconsequences of inspection
create for schools.
So it's a curious mix and it'san incredibly rewarding job.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, I know that in recent times inspections,
especially in the school systemnot the higher education or
early years have come under alot of scrutiny.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, and so much of it is about the consequences of
inspection, because there isthis policy of academizing
schools are graded at the lowestlevel and at that point it is
completely uncertain for headswhat their future will be.
So it is, this great web offear has built up around those
(05:48):
possible consequences and ofcourse that's almost impossible
for inspectors to defuse becausethey don't control that.
It's for government to makethose decisions.
So it's quite a stickyenvironment in England at the
moment because it's very hard tohave those conversations, do
you see, and it's just a hope,amanda, but do you see it
(06:10):
becoming less punitive in nature?
Inspection.
This is a really important one.
Inspection is not remotelypunitive in nature.
The whole process I listened somuch before I started at Ofsted
and throughout my time there Iwent to so many conferences,
(06:32):
teacher-led events and usuallyon my own so that I could really
talk to people and hear whatthey were saying.
I consistently heard thismessage about fear of
consequences.
So one of the principles forthe redesign that I did of
inspection was to make it asmuch as possible about a
(06:53):
constructive and supportiveprofessional dialogue about the
things that really matter.
But what nobody is comfortabletalking about is the very
difficult situation that in thevery, very small proportion of
inspections you find reallyserious failures and, most
difficult of all, sometimespeople aren't aware of those
(07:13):
failures and then you have aterribly difficult conversations
and inspectors are veryskillful at handling those.
But at the end of the day thereare times when the interests of
children the inspection isthere to serve and the interests
of the adults are just not inthe same place and the inspector
(07:35):
sometimes has to be the personto give a really tough message.
And that is their job.
It's like judges have to makedecisions in the cases they hear
they can't say.
It's all a bit difficult and Idon't want to be unkind to
anybody so I won't say anything.
Inspectors are in that positionthat they have to say is this
school good enough or is it notgood enough?
(07:57):
So characterizing that aspunitive is not really fair to
inspectors.
In a system where schools havea very high level of autonomy,
inspection is that key safeguardthat children are getting what
they're actually meant to get.
So inspectors in England arehired for their bedside manner.
(08:18):
They're hired for not just fortechnical competence but for
their empathy and ability tohave the right conversations,
and the feedback isoverwhelmingly very positive
about that.
But it's very easy for peopleto use words like punitive and
sort of mischaracterize.
It is the consequences thatother people hang on it that are
(08:39):
where any punitive aspect lies,not in the inspection process.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, I think what happens is so.
I taught in England for manyyears and I think what happens
is inspectors come in and I'msure their intention isn't to be
punitive, or let's just banthat word, it's not to be hard
and fast on the schools.
But of course the schoolleaders are feeling that
(09:04):
pressure from wherever and thenthey transfer that to the staff
and the colleagues.
But how can we balance thatwith well-being?
How can we balance the process,you think?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
First of all, you're absolutely right.
The fear that heads build uparound the consequences often
does get transmitted to staffand sometimes I've talked to
many teachers often teachers who, because inspection is quite
infrequent and is a very smallprocess it doesn't draw in
everybody who works in a schooltypically who've had the most
(09:36):
astonishing messages aboutinspection that they must do
this because Ofsted and theymust do that because Ofsted, and
very often it's actuallycomplete nonsense.
It's do this because Ofsted andthey must do that because
Ofsted, and very often it'sactually complete nonsense.
It's not stuff that Ofstedwould ever want or look at, but
Ofsted is being used as thestick to make people comply and
it's very hard because schoolshave autonomy.
(09:57):
Nobody controls what those headteachers do and can say you
can't do that.
But it is bad managementpractice without a shadow of
doubt.
I think there's a lot that'sreally in government's gift, not
Ofsted.
I know that throughout my timewe work to make the process as
open, as human, as constructiveas we possibly could, but at the
(10:19):
end of the day, wasted cannottake away fear of consequences
that other people apply.
It's a really difficultconundrum.
It is.
It definitely is.
I'll give you an analogy.
I read the feedback frominspections very carefully and
there was a lot.
For example, people would saymy staff actually came away
buzzing.
We were nervous about it, butmy staff came away buzzing
(10:40):
because it was such aconstructive experience.
I think the model that came in2019 really has shifted the
experience at the receiving endquite significantly.
I think it's an analogy,actually something like a
dentist checkup.
I don't know anybody in theworld who says, yippee, I've got
a checkup tomorrow.
Everybody feels a bitapprehensive, but that
(11:03):
apprehension is not about thevisit itself is going to be
awful.
It's that it might show thatyou need a root canal or an
extraction, or that thatniggling tooth is going to need
major treatment, or that there'ssomething you haven't realized.
And normally you come away fromthat dental checkup really
pleased that you went andthinking, good, I've done
something that I did need to do.
(11:24):
There is never going to be aworld in which people say,
yippee, bring it on, let's domore of it.
And yet it is fundamentalprotection in an education
system, which is why so manycountries have inspectorates.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But it is important that people understand that
sometimes they are the peoplewho have to give really tough
messages very much so I thinkthe uah has adopted especially
dubai and the other emirate haveadopted an ofsted style
inspection and it has helped, Ithink, in a lot of ways to drive
(12:01):
up standards in the schools,because when you know that your
processes are being looked atclosely, then you also in turn
start to pay closer attention tothem and the consequences of
how they're being implemented.
So that turns me to your newrole and your new region.
(12:21):
Why the UAE?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, the UAE is somewhere where so much is
happening at the moment, andGEMS approached me after I'd
finished my term as chiefinspector and there's a lot
that's interesting Because ofthe way that the education
system is configured, with thestate schools serving only
Emirati children and a verylarge proportion of the
(12:47):
population being non-Emirati.
So there is an exceptionallylarge private sector in a
country that is growing veryfast, that is very
entrepreneurial and dynamic,lots of parents who are
themselves of entrepreneurial,dynamic kinds of people which is
why they've moved to UAE and soa rapidly growing school sector
(13:08):
that's very forward-looking,very outward-looking.
It's very clearly a place thatisn't set in stone, where
nothing is really going tochange ever.
It's a place where there's alot going on, so it's a place
where it's very interesting totake a role in being part of
shaping that future.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I've been here for 14 years and over those
years I've literally watched thecountry just grow and evolve
and I find that their ambitionis so vast that I often say, can
they do it?
And more often than not,they've done it and you're like,
wow, you've actually managed todo something that it takes
(13:48):
other places decades or evenlonger to implement.
They've managed to do it inrecord time.
So your role as chair of thenew academic council at GEMS
Education what does that entail?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's not an executive job.
I'm not stepping into a placewhere I tell anybody at GEMS
what to do.
They have an excellentleadership team taking those
responsibilities.
The academic council is a way ofcreating a relatively light
(14:24):
touch mechanism to draw togethera group of the education
leaders within GEMS with someexternal education advisors to
chew on the sort of criticalissues, not to try and reach
across everything that GEMS does, but to think about and say
(14:45):
what are the things where thereis the greatest potential to
improve the education we offer.
Going forward across the rangeof different kinds of schools
that GEMS has.
Let's pick out a few of thosethat would benefit from that
kind of airing to give theexecutive some extra insights,
some extra ways of thinkingabout things that they can take
(15:06):
back and build into theirthinking and planning, and to
keep iterating that kind of aloop to find those angles,
whether it's about curriculum,whether it's about teaching,
whether it's about assessment,whether it's about ways of
building school culture, ways ofimproving the wider offer, all
the sport, the extracurricular,all those other things that we
(15:28):
know that people support, allthe things that add up to a
great education and people'scoming out happy, well-educated,
prepared for what lies ahead.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, it sounds good, sounds exciting, so I wanted to
because of how wide your scopeis.
Now you're coming international.
You've worked in the UK.
What are you excited about nowin education?
What do you see happening thatexcites you?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Oh well, in England, for example, I think there's
been a real intellectualrenaissance in education in
England over the last decade,and very much as a teacher-led
intellectual renaissance, Peoplehave really been picking up and
thinking about all the sort ofaccumulation of evidence around,
(16:21):
all the different aspects andreading, discussing, thinking
about the implications, sharingideas.
Twitter for a while, for quitea long time, was a great vehicle
for that kind of sharing,though it's all got a bit
difficult there at the moment.
But there's been a willingnessto engage intellectually and to
(16:42):
test thinking and even forpeople with very different
starting positions to listen, toread, to talk to each other and
I've seen so much emerging outof that that I think is
genuinely improving education.
And I think seen so muchemerging out of that that I
think is genuinely improvingeducation.
And I think social media hashelped to connect people in
different parts of the countryand different schools that
sometimes there were people whowere, of course, they've always
(17:04):
been people with tremendousinterests, who felt quite
isolated within schools anddidn't have ways of connecting
with other people, and I thinkthat's really built up.
And then, layering onto that,many of the emerging
multi-academy trusts have reallyharnessed that intellectual
energy and have been buildingthat into the various kinds of
(17:25):
support, the training, themodels that they set for their
schools.
So I don't think it's anaccident that so much of the
school sector in England isdoing very well at the moment,
as reflected in some recentiterations of PISA.
I think there've been some verygood things happening there.
There's perhaps a bit of adownbeat mood in England at the
moment in the education sectorbetween dealing with the
(17:47):
aftermath of COVID and lockdowns, concerns about school funding,
concerns about rising specialneeds and for a whole variety of
reasons that the school sectoris not at its most cheerful.
And yet I think there's atremendous amount actually in
the fundamentals to be verypositive and excited about.
I'm really looking forward toseeing in more depth the kinds
(18:09):
of conversation, the kinds ofthinking that GEMS is harnessing
, that individuals visited awhole series of GEMS schools in
June very different schoolscoming from very different
traditions internationalcurriculum, British curriculum,
IB curriculum but seeing how, intheir different ways, they were
all building on and making thatenergy.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And how did you find the tour of the different GEMS
schools?
How did you find it all?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
First and foremost, I hadn't been in a school for
several months and, lisa, I tellyou I was so excited to be in
schools again and see childrenand teachers working, and seeing
a good school in operation issuch a lovely thing to be in and
to be part of.
I think one of the things thatCOVID taught us actually is
(18:57):
quite how much the physicalreality of a school matters and
what a sophisticated mechanism aschool is to create an
environment in which childrenengage in the whole business of
learning and in learning thingsthey don't know, that they want
to learn and need to learn, andin building constructive
(19:18):
relationships with adults andpeers.
That process of socialization,all the different ways that
schools help children discoverwhat they're capable of being.
They're very subtle mechanismsand most of that doesn't work
when you haven't got humans incontact with each other, making
eye contact, doing all thoselittle things that are really
(19:40):
hard to do unless you're in aroom with people.
So I'm a tremendous believer inthe power of schools.
I saw schools serving verydifferent parents with
significantly differentapproaches, but I saw a common
thread that really encouragedand excited me.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I always say COVID made me love school again
because I had my own kids athome and I was like I love
school, I love school for themand I love school.
I wanted to ask you thisquestion, so I'll use it as my
final question.
I think I forgot to ask you.
Dubai uses an annual inspection, then other Emirates use a
(20:20):
biannual and some once everythree years.
What do you think is the rightinterval at which schools should
be inspected?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
at which schools should be inspected.
That's a really interestingquestion.
The first thing I would say tothat is inspection isn't just a
thing that you do.
You do it for a reason, as partof a bigger government
regulatory policy.
So what you inspect, how youinspect, how often you inspect
all of those are things whereyour choices should be driven by
what's the bigger policy, arethings where your choices should
be driven by what's the biggerpolicy.
(20:54):
What is it you're trying toachieve?
I think one thing I would say isand there is a balance at one
end you don't want schools to beconstantly preparing for
inspection and never have aminute to draw breath in between
, because, whether we like it ornot, schools are always going
to do some work to make surethat they're ready, to make sure
that, as far as they possiblycan, that an inspection will go
(21:15):
well.
So too frequent and there's notenough time to do the day job.
You're spending all your timepreparing for inspection, but at
the other end, too infrequentand actually you create the
space that the fear andapprehension can build up.
So to make it less work andless concerning for teachers,
we'll only do it once every 10years would probably be really
(21:37):
bad news.
So trying to find the sweetspot in the context of a
particular policy environment tome should always be the aim, so
that you're properly lookingafter the interests of parents
and children in a way that'sactually as fair and reasonable
to head teachers and staff asyou can make it Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's a great place to end the pod.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Really nice to talk to you, Lisa, and good luck.
Thank you so much.
Thanks very much.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
I am Lisa Grace.
Today I have Amanda Spielmanwith me on the podcast.
Amanda is the former Chief ofthe Inspector and she's
currently taking on a role withGEMS Education as the new chair
of their academic council.
Amanda is very much new to thisregion and so, before we jump
(00:38):
deep into the podcast, we wantto get to know who she is and we
want to humanize her a littlebit.
Not just the role, not just theprofessional, but the person.
Welcome to the podcast, amanda.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thank you very much, Lisa Grace.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's a pleasure to have you, Amanda.
Take us back to little Amanda.
Where did you grow up and whatwas your?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
childhood like.
I grew up mostly in Scotland.
My parents moved there when Iwas five.
My father worked for thegovernment and my mother was a
university lecturer and we werepart of a community that centred
around the university.
All my parents' friends, I seemto remember, were other
(01:23):
lecturers and teachers there,mostly people who didn't have
children.
So I spent a lot of timesitting in corners playing and
listening to adults talkingaround me which I guess is a
universal childhood experienceand lots of outdoor things going
, walking in the Scottish hills,sailing in dinghies, camping,
(01:44):
really making the most of whatScotland has to offer.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
That sounds idyllic.
It really does.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It was mostly pretty lovely.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And tell me then, after your childhood, what led
you into education as a career.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I very much had a career of two halves.
I started out after doing lawat university, training as an
accountant, and I worked infinance and banking for 15 years
or so and I had an itch thatgradually built up that I wasn't
doing what I really wanted tobe doing.
And when I had time to stop andthink on one of my maternity
(02:24):
leaves to really think aboutwhat interested me and what I
wanted to be doing, I suddenlyrealized that ever since I was a
child myself, I'd readeverything I'd ever come across
about education.
So that was the moment Ithought, oh, I'd better do
something about it.
Then I went off to do amaster's in comparative
education, studying educationsystems in different countries,
and then looked for aninteresting role.
(02:46):
And one thing led to anotherWow.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And your time in education.
Where did that career lead?
You Give me sort of like theminiature CV version.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
The miniature CV version is.
I came out of my master'shugely enthused, really
interested in the kinds ofcurriculum and teaching that
made the biggest difference tothe children with the biggest
challenges, and looked aroundfor somewhere that I could use
that and I thought I might finda little part-time policy job
(03:19):
somewhere.
Well, my children were stillpretty small and I bumped into
the people who were setting upone of the first chains of
academy schools in England andbecame part of the top team
there and then from there Ibecame chair of the exam
regulator Ofqual.
I'd got really interested inassessment and all the
(03:41):
complexities around assessmentand I did that for six years and
then I became chief inspectorand was chief inspector for
seven years.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Wow, so it's a nice little pathway that led you the
winding way.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I've been incredibly lucky.
I never for one moment imaginedwhat I would do when I started
out on that master's course, butit's been so interesting.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
How would you encapsulate your time at Ofsted?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
It was just extraordinarily invigorating.
Ofsted isn't just about schools.
It covers post-16 education andearly years and social care.
Funnily enough, the piecearound schools, for some reason,
is always much more politicisedand much more pressured than
the other pieces, so it's goodto be able to calibrate the
different worlds against eachother.
(04:30):
We achieved a tremendous amountin my time at Ofsted In the
education world across fromearly years through schools and
post-16, we put in a new modelof inspection that's really
focused on substance ofeducation and integrity not just
are the results high enough,but really sort of looking
underneath at what's beingtaught and how it's being taught
(04:52):
and it's gone incredibly well.
The feedback is so positive onthat model and yet at the same
time in England the governmenthangs huge weight on inspection,
so a big part of the job istrying to manage and navigate
the pressures that theconsequences of inspection
create for schools.
So it's a curious mix and it'san incredibly rewarding job.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Yeah, I know that in recent times inspections,
especially in the school systemnot the higher education or
early years have come under alot of scrutiny.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, and so much of it is about the consequences of
inspection, because there isthis policy of academizing
schools are graded at the lowestlevel and at that point it is
completely uncertain for headswhat their future will be.
So it is, this great web offear has built up around those
(05:48):
possible consequences and ofcourse that's almost impossible
for inspectors to defuse becausethey don't control that.
It's for government to makethose decisions.
So it's quite a stickyenvironment in England at the
moment because it's very hard tohave those conversations, do
you see, and it's just a hope,amanda, but do you see it
(06:10):
becoming less punitive in nature?
Inspection.
This is a really important one.
Inspection is not remotelypunitive in nature.
The whole process I listened somuch before I started at Ofsted
and throughout my time there Iwent to so many conferences,
(06:32):
teacher-led events and usuallyon my own so that I could really
talk to people and hear whatthey were saying.
I consistently heard thismessage about fear of
consequences.
So one of the principles forthe redesign that I did of
inspection was to make it asmuch as possible about a
(06:53):
constructive and supportiveprofessional dialogue about the
things that really matter.
But what nobody is comfortabletalking about is the very
difficult situation that in thevery, very small proportion of
inspections you find reallyserious failures and, most
difficult of all, sometimespeople aren't aware of those
(07:13):
failures and then you have aterribly difficult conversations
and inspectors are veryskillful at handling those.
But at the end of the day thereare times when the interests of
children the inspection isthere to serve and the interests
of the adults are just not inthe same place and the inspector
(07:35):
sometimes has to be the personto give a really tough message.
And that is their job.
It's like judges have to makedecisions in the cases they hear
they can't say.
It's all a bit difficult and Idon't want to be unkind to
anybody so I won't say anything.
Inspectors are in that positionthat they have to say is this
school good enough or is it notgood enough?
(07:57):
So characterizing that aspunitive is not really fair to
inspectors.
In a system where schools havea very high level of autonomy,
inspection is that key safeguardthat children are getting what
they're actually meant to get.
So inspectors in England arehired for their bedside manner.
(08:18):
They're hired for not just fortechnical competence but for
their empathy and ability tohave the right conversations,
and the feedback isoverwhelmingly very positive
about that.
But it's very easy for peopleto use words like punitive and
sort of mischaracterize.
It is the consequences thatother people hang on it that are
(08:39):
where any punitive aspect lies,not in the inspection process.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, I think what happens is so.
I taught in England for manyyears and I think what happens
is inspectors come in and I'msure their intention isn't to be
punitive, or let's just banthat word, it's not to be hard
and fast on the schools.
But of course the schoolleaders are feeling that
(09:04):
pressure from wherever and thenthey transfer that to the staff
and the colleagues.
But how can we balance thatwith well-being?
How can we balance the process,you think?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
First of all, you're absolutely right.
The fear that heads build uparound the consequences often
does get transmitted to staffand sometimes I've talked to
many teachers often teachers who, because inspection is quite
infrequent and is a very smallprocess it doesn't draw in
everybody who works in a schooltypically who've had the most
(09:36):
astonishing messages aboutinspection that they must do
this because Ofsted and theymust do that because Ofsted, and
very often it's actuallycomplete nonsense.
It's do this because Ofsted andthey must do that because
Ofsted, and very often it'sactually complete nonsense.
It's not stuff that Ofstedwould ever want or look at, but
Ofsted is being used as thestick to make people comply and
it's very hard because schoolshave autonomy.
(09:57):
Nobody controls what those headteachers do and can say you
can't do that.
But it is bad managementpractice without a shadow of
doubt.
I think there's a lot that'sreally in government's gift, not
Ofsted.
I know that throughout my timewe work to make the process as
open, as human, as constructiveas we possibly could, but at the
(10:19):
end of the day, wasted cannottake away fear of consequences
that other people apply.
It's a really difficultconundrum.
It is.
It definitely is.
I'll give you an analogy.
I read the feedback frominspections very carefully and
there was a lot.
For example, people would saymy staff actually came away
buzzing.
We were nervous about it, butmy staff came away buzzing
(10:40):
because it was such aconstructive experience.
I think the model that came in2019 really has shifted the
experience at the receiving endquite significantly.
I think it's an analogy,actually something like a
dentist checkup.
I don't know anybody in theworld who says, yippee, I've got
a checkup tomorrow.
Everybody feels a bitapprehensive, but that
(11:03):
apprehension is not about thevisit itself is going to be
awful.
It's that it might show thatyou need a root canal or an
extraction, or that thatniggling tooth is going to need
major treatment, or that there'ssomething you haven't realized.
And normally you come away fromthat dental checkup really
pleased that you went andthinking, good, I've done
something that I did need to do.
(11:24):
There is never going to be aworld in which people say,
yippee, bring it on, let's domore of it.
And yet it is fundamentalprotection in an education
system, which is why so manycountries have inspectorates.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But it is important that people understand that
sometimes they are the peoplewho have to give really tough
messages very much so I thinkthe uah has adopted especially
dubai and the other emirate haveadopted an ofsted style
inspection and it has helped, Ithink, in a lot of ways to drive
(12:01):
up standards in the schools,because when you know that your
processes are being looked atclosely, then you also in turn
start to pay closer attention tothem and the consequences of
how they're being implemented.
So that turns me to your newrole and your new region.
(12:21):
Why the UAE?
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Well, the UAE is somewhere where so much is
happening at the moment, andGEMS approached me after I'd
finished my term as chiefinspector and there's a lot
that's interesting Because ofthe way that the education
system is configured, with thestate schools serving only
Emirati children and a verylarge proportion of the
(12:47):
population being non-Emirati.
So there is an exceptionallylarge private sector in a
country that is growing veryfast, that is very
entrepreneurial and dynamic,lots of parents who are
themselves of entrepreneurial,dynamic kinds of people which is
why they've moved to UAE and soa rapidly growing school sector
(13:08):
that's very forward-looking,very outward-looking.
It's very clearly a place thatisn't set in stone, where
nothing is really going tochange ever.
It's a place where there's alot going on, so it's a place
where it's very interesting totake a role in being part of
shaping that future.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I've been here for 14 years and over those
years I've literally watched thecountry just grow and evolve
and I find that their ambitionis so vast that I often say, can
they do it?
And more often than not,they've done it and you're like,
wow, you've actually managed todo something that it takes
(13:48):
other places decades or evenlonger to implement.
They've managed to do it inrecord time.
So your role as chair of thenew academic council at GEMS
Education what does that entail?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
It's not an executive job.
I'm not stepping into a placewhere I tell anybody at GEMS
what to do.
They have an excellentleadership team taking those
responsibilities.
The academic council is a way ofcreating a relatively light
(14:24):
touch mechanism to draw togethera group of the education
leaders within GEMS with someexternal education advisors to
chew on the sort of criticalissues, not to try and reach
across everything that GEMS does, but to think about and say
(14:45):
what are the things where thereis the greatest potential to
improve the education we offer.
Going forward across the rangeof different kinds of schools
that GEMS has.
Let's pick out a few of thosethat would benefit from that
kind of airing to give theexecutive some extra insights,
some extra ways of thinkingabout things that they can take
(15:06):
back and build into theirthinking and planning, and to
keep iterating that kind of aloop to find those angles,
whether it's about curriculum,whether it's about teaching,
whether it's about assessment,whether it's about ways of
building school culture, ways ofimproving the wider offer, all
the sport, the extracurricular,all those other things that we
(15:28):
know that people support, allthe things that add up to a
great education and people'scoming out happy, well-educated,
prepared for what lies ahead.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, it sounds good, sounds exciting, so I wanted to
because of how wide your scopeis.
Now you're coming international.
You've worked in the UK.
What are you excited about nowin education?
What do you see happening thatexcites you?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Oh well, in England, for example, I think there's
been a real intellectualrenaissance in education in
England over the last decade,and very much as a teacher-led
intellectual renaissance, Peoplehave really been picking up and
thinking about all the sort ofaccumulation of evidence around,
(16:21):
all the different aspects andreading, discussing, thinking
about the implications, sharingideas.
Twitter for a while, for quitea long time, was a great vehicle
for that kind of sharing,though it's all got a bit
difficult there at the moment.
But there's been a willingnessto engage intellectually and to
(16:42):
test thinking and even forpeople with very different
starting positions to listen, toread, to talk to each other and
I've seen so much emerging outof that that I think is
genuinely improving education.
And I think seen so muchemerging out of that that I
think is genuinely improvingeducation.
And I think social media hashelped to connect people in
different parts of the countryand different schools that
sometimes there were people whowere, of course, they've always
(17:04):
been people with tremendousinterests, who felt quite
isolated within schools anddidn't have ways of connecting
with other people, and I thinkthat's really built up.
And then, layering onto that,many of the emerging
multi-academy trusts have reallyharnessed that intellectual
energy and have been buildingthat into the various kinds of
(17:25):
support, the training, themodels that they set for their
schools.
So I don't think it's anaccident that so much of the
school sector in England isdoing very well at the moment,
as reflected in some recentiterations of PISA.
I think there've been some verygood things happening there.
There's perhaps a bit of adownbeat mood in England at the
moment in the education sectorbetween dealing with the
(17:47):
aftermath of COVID and lockdowns, concerns about school funding,
concerns about rising specialneeds and for a whole variety of
reasons that the school sectoris not at its most cheerful.
And yet I think there's atremendous amount actually in
the fundamentals to be verypositive and excited about.
I'm really looking forward toseeing in more depth the kinds
(18:09):
of conversation, the kinds ofthinking that GEMS is harnessing
, that individuals visited awhole series of GEMS schools in
June very different schoolscoming from very different
traditions internationalcurriculum, British curriculum,
IB curriculum but seeing how, intheir different ways, they were
all building on and making thatenergy.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
And how did you find the tour of the different GEMS
schools?
How did you find it all?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
First and foremost, I hadn't been in a school for
several months and, lisa, I tellyou I was so excited to be in
schools again and see childrenand teachers working, and seeing
a good school in operation issuch a lovely thing to be in and
to be part of.
I think one of the things thatCOVID taught us actually is
(18:57):
quite how much the physicalreality of a school matters and
what a sophisticated mechanism aschool is to create an
environment in which childrenengage in the whole business of
learning and in learning thingsthey don't know, that they want
to learn and need to learn, andin building constructive
(19:18):
relationships with adults andpeers.
That process of socialization,all the different ways that
schools help children discoverwhat they're capable of being.
They're very subtle mechanismsand most of that doesn't work
when you haven't got humans incontact with each other, making
eye contact, doing all thoselittle things that are really
(19:40):
hard to do unless you're in aroom with people.
So I'm a tremendous believer inthe power of schools.
I saw schools serving verydifferent parents with
significantly differentapproaches, but I saw a common
thread that really encouragedand excited me.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I always say COVID made me love school again
because I had my own kids athome and I was like I love
school, I love school for themand I love school.
I wanted to ask you thisquestion, so I'll use it as my
final question.
I think I forgot to ask you.
Dubai uses an annual inspection, then other Emirates use a
(20:20):
biannual and some once everythree years.
What do you think is the rightinterval at which schools should
be inspected?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
at which schools should be inspected.
That's a really interestingquestion.
The first thing I would say tothat is inspection isn't just a
thing that you do.
You do it for a reason, as partof a bigger government
regulatory policy.
So what you inspect, how youinspect, how often you inspect
all of those are things whereyour choices should be driven by
what's the bigger policy, arethings where your choices should
be driven by what's the biggerpolicy.
(20:54):
What is it you're trying toachieve?
I think one thing I would say isand there is a balance at one
end you don't want schools to beconstantly preparing for
inspection and never have aminute to draw breath in between
, because, whether we like it ornot, schools are always going
to do some work to make surethat they're ready, to make sure
that, as far as they possiblycan, that an inspection will go
(21:15):
well.
So too frequent and there's notenough time to do the day job.
You're spending all your timepreparing for inspection, but at
the other end, too infrequentand actually you create the
space that the fear andapprehension can build up.
So to make it less work andless concerning for teachers,
we'll only do it once every 10years would probably be really
(21:37):
bad news.
So trying to find the sweetspot in the context of a
particular policy environment tome should always be the aim, so
that you're properly lookingafter the interests of parents
and children in a way that'sactually as fair and reasonable
to head teachers and staff asyou can make it Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's a great place to end the pod.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Really nice to talk to you, Lisa, and good luck.
Thank you so much.
Thanks very much.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
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