This episode explores the powerful relationship between coaching and leadership legacy with Dr Helen Wright and Zoubiya Ahmed at the Middle East School Leadership Conference 2025. They discuss how coaching can transform leaders while helping them create a collective legacy that impacts their communities.
• Introduction to the theme of building leadership legacy
• Role of coaching in personal and professional growth
• Understanding the concept of collective legacy
• Common barriers preventing leaders from seeking coaching
• Importance of reflection and self-belief in leadership
• Practical advice for leaders on integrating coaching into their development
If you're ready to take the next step in your leadership journey, reach out for coaching sessions and invest in your legacy. Connect with Dr Helen Wright here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drhelenwright/
Guest hosted by Zoubiya Ahmed
Connect with Zoubiya at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoubiya/
Teach Middle East Magazine is the premier platform for educators and the entire education sector in the Middle East and beyond. Our vision is to equip educators with the materials and tools they need, to function optimally in and out of the classroom. We provide a space for educators to connect and find inspiration, resources, and forums to enhance their teaching techniques, methodologies, and personal development. We connect education suppliers and service providers to the people who make the buying decisions in schools.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello Helen.
Hello, I'm so glad to be here,someone I consider a mentor,
someone I consider as aprofessional connection, who has
so much wisdom and knowledge.
So thank you for being on thisconversation.
I'm glad to be here with you.
We are at the mcgee schoolleadership conference and the
theme today is building aleadership legacy and looking at
(00:39):
leading forward now as coaches,and I, as I say, consider you
as an esteemed colleague in thefield of coaching.
You've worked with a lot ofleaders and sometimes, when we
do this work, there areconfidential things shared with
us.
There's a lot of sensitivity,yes, required to handle some of
the issues that we're faced withwhen, yes, leaders, senior
(01:03):
leaders, middle leaders, allleaders and, to be fair, any
human that we work with.
So, given the theme, how do youfeel the role of coaching
supports building a leadershiplegacy?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
That's such a good question and it's a complex
question, but it's also a verysuper question as well, because
I think that anybody who'sinvolved in having a coach will
recognize the process that yougo through, which is so much
more about yourself first andthen recognizing the with
(01:38):
humility, the power that youhave in order to be able to take
people forward or around you.
So it starts with that who am I?
And then what could I do andwhat do people around me need?
And then how am I going to doit?
How am I going to make thathappen?
And the coach is almost like abystander in that.
(02:02):
So the coach is there saying,okay, I'm asking those questions
.
You said that.
Take that a bit further, shallwe?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Let's see what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Positive curiosity, but also care, underpinning the
curiosity to enable the coacheeto make a discovery and I would
say, as a coach, that one of thethings I feel very strong about
is that if I've taken somebodyon to be able to be coached,
then I'm really invested in themBecause there's something that
(02:34):
drives us around the legacy.
It's not my legacy, it's nottheir legacy, it's our
collective legacy, andparticularly in school leaders.
If all of us are helping schoolleaders be in the right place
at the right time, doing what'samazing to work with their
colleagues, with children,everyone benefits Parents
(02:55):
benefit- it's healthy eating.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Dominoes, snowballs, all of the effects of that.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Children have a whole benefit and children are the
future of the world.
So it's an investment in theworld.
That's the legacy.
It's not a single legacy, it'sa collective legacy.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I love that term collective legacy, because
oftentimes when we talk aboutlegacy, sometimes it feels like
we're talking about being oldand grey and looking back on a
timeline.
Golden gray and looking back ona timeline, you know we're at
the end.
And it doesn't have to be.
It can be quite dynamic and itcan continue on through you, me,
(03:33):
and then it cascades on ratherthan it being linear from point
to point.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yes, A living legacy.
Yeah, that's what we've got Aliving legacy, a living
collective legacy.
Okay, you sorted it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, living collective legacy okay, you
sorted it.
Yeah, and what would you sayare some of the themes of
challenge that stand in the way?
Indeed, inhibit, form barriersto leaders.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Seeing the benefit in coaching yeah, so what's the
barriers that stop people takingup coaching in the first place?
Or considering there are anumber actually.
One of them is that that peopletaking up coaching in the first
place, of course, orconsidering there are a number
actually.
One of them is that peoplethink do I need coaching Because
we don't know what we don'tknow.
That's the thing it's like.
If you don't know what youdon't know, then why would you
take it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
That's why it often happens it's the Johari window
right, totally, absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And it sometimes takes other people to go.
Actually, do you know what?
This would be really helpful.
So I think that's one, and theother one is the kind of the
difficult self-belief thingsLike why me, how could I, why
should people invest in me?
Rather than yes, and alsothinking I'll just keep doing
what I'm doing.
Another is time.
People think it's going to takea lot of time.
(04:40):
It doesn't take time.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Or it's going to be like some sort of therapy,
personality assassination.
I'm justifying this from.
The truth.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
It's going to be empowering.
It's going to be challenging.
Good coaching is challenging,but we're talking about coaching
with one-on-one executivecoaching, leadership coaching.
You talk about an hour everymonth or six weeks.
It's a small amount of time andin that hour there'll be
something that happens thatenables you to take forward
(05:09):
something into the rest of yourtime.
So you have to do work inbetween sessions, but you're not
writing long essays or anythinglike that and I think there's
also something else that peoplethink this is expensive and it's
not expensive.
Coaching is not expensive.
When you consider the valuesthat you get from Cochi,
consider how much people go offto residential conferences and
(05:31):
different places, how muchpeople spend on that, it is not
expensive.
And people think, oh, maybe itcomes back to the self-belief,
the values, or maybe I shouldn'tbe invested in it, Maybe we
need more pencils in year threeor something it's like if, as a
leader, you are not beinginvested in first of all, how
are you going to do your job?
as well as you possibly could doit.
(05:51):
And secondly, you're not beinga very good role model actually,
because we say to children allthe time you need to invest in
yourself, you need to believe.
Look at all this we're givingyou as children in order to grow
and become, and if we, asadults, go?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
yeah, stagnation isn't stagnation what are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
lots of good role models and invest in ourselves.
You know that and it and thething is, it works have you ever
and I'm saying this almostloaded question?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's a
brilliant question provocationhave you ever met some leaders
who consider themselvesuncoachable Leaders?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I mean, there are a lot of leaders, yes, that's
right, you heard there are a lotof roles at Elouiseche.
Haven't you met leaders whohave had to put on a mask so
long that they think they can'tdo any better and it's all going
really well, and etc.
Usually those leaders.
There are multiple layersunderneath that's a, really,
they're the underdogs.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, they're the underdogs.
Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I think there are sometimes, that there are people
.
I think there are other thingsthat they need to do more than
coaching.
I think that most people thequestion that they have is is it
okay for them to be coached?
What is coaching?
Will you tell me what to do?
Actually, you've got the answer.
Oh, no, I don't have theanswers.
Yes, you do have the answersthe skill of the coach and
(07:19):
that's why, being experiencedcoaches, the skill of the coach
is to be able to find the rightquestion, to draw out something
and bring it out so that peoplesee it in a way that they
wouldn't otherwise see, and thenthey'll do something with it.
So I know I'm quite challengingcoach that would be a pragmatic
coach as well.
So I want to make sure that youhave action points to take away
(07:40):
.
They're not going to besuperficial.
They're going to be things thatmake a difference, right?
So sometimes you ask us isanybody ever unfit?
Or they're no, but people doneed to enter into it.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
As you were speaking, the analogy of you have a
challenge or hurdle, a summit ofsome kind, not Everest, not the
Anamerica.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Anything can do.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Let's say we're before Everest base camp, right?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
We're at the summit, a bit cold, a bit challenging.
We're at the first summit.
We're not quite tackling theresult.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We're getting to the site, we can choose.
We could say, look, there isthis way, yes, and there's also
this way it's shorter, yeah, butit's more challenging, yes, and
there's this way, which willtake more time, but you'll have
a scenic view, yeah.
Now it's up to you, yeah, whichpath you choose to take.
That's right and it's up to youwhat you want to think about.
(08:34):
You're scaling that summit, yes, and I think that painting that
senior, that that scene, yeah,and providing signposts yes, not
even the map, yes, the signpostyes, is what the best coach is
doing, and it be.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This is a result of the work that you've done with
the coach who's helped you seethose that you decide.
Actually, you don't want toscare Everest, you want to go
for canty instead.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Do that you know.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So it's about opening a range of possibilities, yes,
and the question is why do youwant to do that?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Maybe you should do that, that maybe you should do
that, and it's finding whatthose are.
I don't know what those are andin terms of the leaders you've
seen in your career who've hadthe biggest impact, who left a
legacy that is noteworthy.
Yeah, have they had coaches?
And if they have had coaches,how have they interacted with
them?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
yeah.
So I don't need the answer tothat entirely, because you don't
always know if you've hadcoaches or not, but I certainly
know that the best leaders havegot a strong sense of self and
they have not done by themselves, they're absolutely haven't
done it by themselves.
They have had people aroundthem who has thought about
things, who have helped as theyguide, they've helped them guide
(09:53):
themselves, and they have adeep sense of humility, openness
to learning, wisdom.
That comes as a result of thatand that doesn't happen just by
people saying follow my own pathand do it my own way Absolutely
not.
So, yes, I would say yeah,maybe slightly less conventional
ways than you describe now,because now people can have
(10:17):
access to a coach, whereas 50years ago, 60 years ago, that
wasn't an option.
People had to find their ownway.
But isn't it marvelous thatwe're able to speak so much more
about it now than we couldbefore.
It's great, it's useful.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Another angle imposter phenomenon.
I don't call it syndromeanymore, because we share a
negative spin.
Imposter phenomenon how does itfeature on the way to creating
a legacy?
Yes, and what can we do when weget?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
so our development as individuals, from a coach see
the development another leader.
Development is not linear andit's not don't wake up and get
up rooms for a baby.
What's good to do is thisyou're good at that.
It's shaped by all sorts ofthings.
It's shaped by challenge.
It's don't wake up and get outof the room and say we're a baby
, what are we going to do?
Use this, we're going to headthere.
It's shaped by all sorts ofthings.
It's shaped by challenge.
It's shaped by things thatmight appear not to go right,
(11:18):
but actually are often the bestthings that could happen, and
it's shaped by voices fromprevious generations.
So the things that we were toldas children and the well-meaning
things that we were told, whichprobably aren't as helpful as
they could be.
So there's all of that that'sgoing on.
That often leads us to aposition where we think why am I
here doing this?
(11:40):
Why am I here Now?
Everything that you've done istaking you to where you are, so
it's a good thing, actually, andeven that questioning of who we
are.
So we talk about impostersyndrome, imposter phenomenon,
and I think there's somethingabout riding the crest of that
wave.
It's like being conscious ofthe unknown ahead of you, so
(12:05):
there should be a man about it.
Oh my, what is it?
Recognizing what's brought usto where we are and then seeing
how we're going to use that, butalso say thank you to all the
things that have happened in thepast.
I love seeing people on thatjourney.
We don't know exactly what'sgoing to happen in the future.
(12:25):
We do know, however, that wecan shape it and we can be
intentional about it, and we candraw on everything we say, all
our knowledge of ourselves,about embracing of our inner
imposter what do we call it?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
his part, you know what I'm hearing from you, and
that's a lovely coaching.
Yes, what I'm hearing is thisconcept that if we are in a
plane, we're going to do a jump,we're going to parachute out of
the plane.
The imposter phenomenon feelingis almost the parachute.
(12:59):
Yes, so we feel fear, we feelanxiety, but without it perhaps
we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yes, that's a lovely image.
Yes, and you've got instructorsaround you.
Instructors around you, yes,that's exhilarating, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
sometimes it's daunting you might actually
chicken out yes, and you canalways go again yes, I think
you're thinking of it more as agarment rather than as a persona
.
Yes is actually helpful.
Yes, and I think the otherdigital toolbox is something
that I like.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
that idea of the parachute oh, we'll take this a
little further.
It's going to be lovely for us.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, so yeah, my brain always when I'm thinking
of things, and I'm sure thispart is with you too, I've
spoken to manifest or tovisualize a hurdle or a barrier.
Earlier, when I was speaking toPriya Mitchell, we were talking
(13:57):
about relationships beingcritical for us and caring
cultures.
And on the way as we werewalking here.
We were talking aboutrelationships for leaders and
legacy yes, but we were talkingabout the fact that when people
say to me relationship, Iactually imagine a ship being
constructed every time.
Yes, we is.
So we start with a plank ofwood and then, slowly but surely
(14:20):
, we create this.
It's a majestic image, so it'salways there that relationship
once formed is always there,yeah, and just built upon yeah
yes, and the dimensions are verydifferent ways, but that that
also reads true of how weconceptualize ourselves and our
leadership.
So if you visualize yourleadership, you visualize it as
(14:41):
an object or a place you know,we often do activities like that
what is your leadership?
if you could it, if you couldanalyze it, how would it feel to
walk through it and how is itto?
If you were there, what wouldthe sound be?
What would the pictures be, andit seems quite abstract to some
(15:02):
people, but in doing so you areexploring.
You're exploring and alsogrowing your brain.
It's neuroplastic.
The activity.
And people say to me so whydon't you do leadership?
Do you just talk to people andyou know it's well-meaning.
It's well-meaning, but thisidea that you can turn a
(15:25):
construct, something quiteabstract, something that someone
can carry within them, yes, andactually move with it.
Yes, in a way that helps themto feel more secure within
themselves.
Yes, that is the leadership ofthe self.
So, coaching, and we talk aboutthat, or when we are trying to
create coaches- yes.
(15:45):
Or have a coaching spirit withinour school.
Yes, it starts with knowingoneself, absolutely, totally.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That goes back to the very first point I made.
When you had the very firstquestion.
You asked exactly that, yeah,it starts with knowing yourself,
but it doesn't mean that youknow yourself entirely.
Yeah, in order to be able to bea great leader, a good coach,
it doesn't.
It does mean that you need tobe on a quest towards and that I
think every day we should knowourselves that little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
We have actively reflected on that we don't have
spent hours doing that the besttime to reflect on yourself is
because we're busy leaders,right, busy people.
When, if we I know I know wherewe're going to go with the
answer to this, but if you were,if someone was like I don't
have time to reflect, what wouldyour advice be to them on when
(16:34):
they might start to?
What's the stepping stone?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
so two things.
That one is we always have time.
We always have time.
There are things that once webecome a habit that we will do
there.
People do not forget to cleantheir teeth in the morning.
They just do it, and yet thattakes a little time, doesn't it?
We don't forget to do thatbecause you know it's important
to be brought up to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
We do it, etc.
It might actually be becausethere's a cause and effect to
that.
So if I don't brush my teeth,my teeth won't look the same,
and if I don't brush my teeth Imight have a bad impression.
I might give out, people mightsmell my smoothie, but so I'm
going to be forced to do it.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
For that reason, yes, but you didn't know that until
you were told that and youactually practiced it.
And then you realized at somepoint in your life, when you
didn't do that, that was the soyou learned that?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
yeah, so you never don't have time to brush it
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So there is always time.
There is always time you,there's always time to breathe,
there is always time to eat somesomething, there's always time
to notice, and it can take a fewseconds to do that.
The second point I want to make, though, is that if you haven't
been doing it, then youabsolutely need to practice, and
you need to schedule it, andyou need to stack that habit
(17:43):
onto another habit, and sothere's a trigger for you to do
it, because otherwise, you couldsay, yes, I want to do that,
I'll do that at some point,because you should do it,
because you haven't built it in.
We're saying that maybe peoplecould use their teeth brushing
moments to be able to reflect onsuch because it's best to be
two minutes there you go andstart with two minutes there we,
we go.
What's the day?
Well, that's four minutesSorted.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Exactly.
Or the shower.
A lot of people say that's whatwe're doing, and in coaching we
often signpost when you'rebrushing your teeth, yes, and
when you're having a shower orsomeone cancels a meeting, yes,
and then there's a dead timebetween the next one.
(18:28):
It's a gift of time.
It's the opportunity to comeout of the rigmarole of the next
and the next and havingapplause, the power of applause.
We used to talk about this.
We used to talk aboutstrategically composing
ourselves.
Not composing ourselves becausethere's a stressor, but
actually taking the time to beintentional about it.
To be intentional, yeah, andthen and I always pick this up
(18:49):
when I'm watching you does thatmean I have to become a yogi?
Does that mean I have to startdoing all of these breathing
exercises and all of that?
It goes in different directions.
It doesn't have to be so heavy?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Not at all, because it's not one thing or the other.
We do live in a world whichtends to be quite polarised.
It's either I'm not going tothink about myself at all or I'm
going to spend the next sixyears on the foot of this wall.
So it's not that I mean that'sright.
It's those little things thatare balanced with other things.
You make your choice.
(19:20):
It's not like you're having tofit absolutely everything in.
It's a question, and it's notlike you're having to fit
absolutely everything in becauseit's a question.
There's something that I know Iwould like to do, that I'm
going to be able to do it.
It's something that I reallyfeel compelled to do because I
can see how it's developing me.
I'm absolutely going to do that.
Right, you can do that.
It is there.
(19:40):
You can do that.
A coach helps remind you ofthat and make sure that you're
on track as far as that'sconcerned holds you to account.
You will do it.
You will do it because youbelieve that it's really
important to do it's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Um, on the point of changing, just making a small
shift, making a tiny shift, I'veactually this week had a alarm
at this is a true story 7 am,yes, and 9 pm to remind me to
just breathe, and I know that'sreally weird, maybe it sounds um
(20:16):
, but when it pops up itactually really surprises me.
Yes, did you forgot becauseI've forgotten?
Yes, that I can take a reallydeep breath and just calm myself
down.
So tell me what's the impact ofyou doing that for you.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
What's the experience you've had?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So I've reset myself to be intentional about taking a
breath, because I'm a growthperson, I'm doing lots of things
and sometimes I just don'tthink, yeah, consciously about
it and by having that trigger,reminder, the nudge yes the
nudge to just take a really deepbreath, just two or three of
(20:56):
them, and I think the power ofjust yeah, just one.
Yeah, one leads to two, andthen, if I'm in a calm state, my
whole evening looks different.
Yes, or the rest of the nightlooks different, and I've set it
to seven because I'm normallyon the way, or getting up, or on
the way, yes, and my head'slike I'm either frantic.
(21:20):
Yes so it's just it justre-centers.
Yeah, and that just a fewbreaths?
Yeah, because I think I readsomewhere that if you calm your
pulse yes, at least twice a dayyour general wellbeing is
impacted.
Yes, and it's been the ninthday of it.
Yes, and I think I am a littlebit more centered.
(21:43):
Yes, and it's just like fourdeep breath yes.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So what I'm hearing from me, what I'm guessing that
you've actually given the answerthere, is that you just you
didn't wake up one morning,think, oh right, and just do a
few deep breaths.
You actually thought about, youtalked about feeling centered,
so a goal to feel centered.
You talked about your generalwell-being and that would be a
goal that you had for yourgeneral well-being.
And you've identified, partlythrough your reading, partly
(22:08):
through listening to it, you'veidentified that this is the way
in which you're going to try andyou're going to experiment.
Do that, not only that,actually that strength of mine.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So I play to my strength, scheduling yes and
saying structure, yes.
What can I do that I'm alreadydoing really well?
Yes, that enables me to do thisthing, but at the same time I
don't.
Maybe I'm not naturally leaningto it, because I'm wanting to
fill my day with as much aspossible, so I use my own raps.
You can really support me.
(22:39):
So I think, if you'reidentifying your strengths well,
you can use your strengths forfor your goals and try and line
them up.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
One self back to that and you have those goals,
you've created those goals andcoaching that process that
you've gone through, using yourown skills as a coach, with you,
that's led you to go.
Ah yes, I've got these goals.
I'm going to do something aboutit and I think it's a little
bit of practice what you preachas well.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Because I'm always telling people time blocks your
footnotes and that, and when youexperience it and you tell
people of your own experience,you're speaking from a source.
You're giving them a case studywhich is live.
You say I did it and this ishow I felt.
Why don't you try it Just a fewdays?
(23:27):
And sometimes that's what makesthe ball bearing you know, just
take over, and I would say thatwhen you've done it and you've
convinced yourself, you're thena lot more effective as a coach
with others.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yes, I think that's true.
I think that's very true, andthat applies not necessarily
just to the breathing andwell-being though that's very
important for everybody but it'sabout people's career
trajectories and when youexperience things and sometimes
precariously experience thingsfor other people, you know that
this is possible and even justhaving that confidence as a
coach not to tell people what todo you know it and then you
(24:06):
know which questions to ask inorder to get people to go.
Oh yeah, I think I'll do thatabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And I found in my uh when I coached uh heads and
leaders, when you, when theystart having series of coaching
sessions, they start creatingthe fact that you're eliciting
from your your.
I know why you're up and I knewthe question you're going to
ask.
But brilliant, brilliant,brilliant.
(24:32):
So it's great because thosethinking routines, yes, those,
those moments of reflection, ifthey're pre-empting them, it's
when the toothbrushing becomesautomatic if they're adopting
and absorbing the experience,and I think that's another
reason why coaching is socritical, because yes when
you've experienced it as someuser coachee, when you're then
(24:52):
the coach, you.
It's a two-way synergy thatcomes up for me.
Lastly, just lastly, what wouldbe your key advice to someone
who's just hanging on, justhanging on?
They can't see their legacyright now.
They can't see their work fromthe trees.
They're just hanging on day today, meeting to meeting, email
(25:14):
to email, moment to moment.
What would be your advice?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
you mean, apart from getting a coach, because the
coach is this, I would say,apart from yeah, go for a walk.
Yes, apart from sleep more yes,apart from that is break for a
second, and it needs a lot.
But break, think and ask thequestion, because you need to
think differently.
(25:37):
You need to be in a positionwhere you're going to say I'm
going to do this differently.
So you need, therefore, tophysically relocate to another
place, another part of theschool, another part of a park,
rather than stay at home,whatever it is.
Change.
Relocate yourself physicallyfor a bit and ask the question
(25:57):
I'm pausing just listen.
And then internally, internally, and listen, and you won't have
the answers all there, butthat's where, if you start with
that, it's like those fewseconds of grief and it's going
to be something.
It will come to you who it is,who's going to help you.
If this is happening, chancesare there are lots of things
(26:20):
going on.
You could do what you deservesomebody to help, walk alongside
you.
So that means very much whatyou're saying physically.
Put yourself somewhere mentally, put yourself somewhere
emotionally and just ask thequestion what am I doing, where
am I going, how am I going to do?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
and who do I trust or who, yeah, who could be, who
could I lean on?
Because leaders often are theones people lean on and we need
that network around those two.
On that note, we always go deepand deep dive even though
they've stopped them.
Often they've stopped them now.
We love a good deep dive intocoaching and theory and practice
(27:00):
and people, and I thinkgenuinely we both love people
and I see coaching comes fromthat love of humanity and that's
legacy, isn't it?
It has to some people.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, and I think generally, genuinely, we both
love people?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
yes, and I think coaching comes from that yes,
humanity and that's legacy.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yes, indeed, that's who we are.
Yeah, thank you so much, mygreat pleasure.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello Helen.
Hello, I'm so glad to be here,someone I consider a mentor,
someone I consider as aprofessional connection, who has
so much wisdom and knowledge.
So thank you for being on thisconversation.
I'm glad to be here with you.
We are at the mcgee schoolleadership conference and the
theme today is building aleadership legacy and looking at
(00:39):
leading forward now as coaches,and I, as I say, consider you
as an esteemed colleague in thefield of coaching.
You've worked with a lot ofleaders and sometimes, when we
do this work, there areconfidential things shared with
us.
There's a lot of sensitivity,yes, required to handle some of
the issues that we're faced withwhen, yes, leaders, senior
(01:03):
leaders, middle leaders, allleaders and, to be fair, any
human that we work with.
So, given the theme, how do youfeel the role of coaching
supports building a leadershiplegacy?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
That's such a good question and it's a complex
question, but it's also a verysuper question as well, because
I think that anybody who'sinvolved in having a coach will
recognize the process that yougo through, which is so much
more about yourself first andthen recognizing the with
(01:38):
humility, the power that youhave in order to be able to take
people forward or around you.
So it starts with that who am I?
And then what could I do andwhat do people around me need?
And then how am I going to doit?
How am I going to make thathappen?
And the coach is almost like abystander in that.
(02:02):
So the coach is there saying,okay, I'm asking those questions
.
You said that.
Take that a bit further, shallwe?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Let's see what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Positive curiosity, but also care, underpinning the
curiosity to enable the coacheeto make a discovery and I would
say, as a coach, that one of thethings I feel very strong about
is that if I've taken somebodyon to be able to be coached,
then I'm really invested in themBecause there's something that
(02:34):
drives us around the legacy.
It's not my legacy, it's nottheir legacy, it's our
collective legacy, andparticularly in school leaders.
If all of us are helping schoolleaders be in the right place
at the right time, doing what'samazing to work with their
colleagues, with children,everyone benefits Parents
(02:55):
benefit- it's healthy eating.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Dominoes, snowballs, all of the effects of that.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Children have a whole benefit and children are the
future of the world.
So it's an investment in theworld.
That's the legacy.
It's not a single legacy, it'sa collective legacy.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I love that term collective legacy, because
oftentimes when we talk aboutlegacy, sometimes it feels like
we're talking about being oldand grey and looking back on a
timeline.
Golden gray and looking back ona timeline, you know we're at
the end.
And it doesn't have to be.
It can be quite dynamic and itcan continue on through you, me,
(03:33):
and then it cascades on ratherthan it being linear from point
to point.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yes, A living legacy.
Yeah, that's what we've got Aliving legacy, a living
collective legacy.
Okay, you sorted it.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, living collective legacy okay, you
sorted it.
Yeah, and what would you sayare some of the themes of
challenge that stand in the way?
Indeed, inhibit, form barriersto leaders.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Seeing the benefit in coaching yeah, so what's the
barriers that stop people takingup coaching in the first place?
Or considering there are anumber actually.
One of them is that that peopletaking up coaching in the first
place, of course, orconsidering there are a number
actually.
One of them is that peoplethink do I need coaching Because
we don't know what we don'tknow.
That's the thing it's like.
If you don't know what youdon't know, then why would you
take it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
That's why it often happens it's the Johari window
right, totally, absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
And it sometimes takes other people to go.
Actually, do you know what?
This would be really helpful.
So I think that's one, and theother one is the kind of the
difficult self-belief thingsLike why me, how could I, why
should people invest in me?
Rather than yes, and alsothinking I'll just keep doing
what I'm doing.
Another is time.
People think it's going to takea lot of time.
(04:40):
It doesn't take time.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Or it's going to be like some sort of therapy,
personality assassination.
I'm justifying this from.
The truth.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
It's going to be empowering.
It's going to be challenging.
Good coaching is challenging,but we're talking about coaching
with one-on-one executivecoaching, leadership coaching.
You talk about an hour everymonth or six weeks.
It's a small amount of time andin that hour there'll be
something that happens thatenables you to take forward
(05:09):
something into the rest of yourtime.
So you have to do work inbetween sessions, but you're not
writing long essays or anythinglike that and I think there's
also something else that peoplethink this is expensive and it's
not expensive.
Coaching is not expensive.
When you consider the valuesthat you get from Cochi,
consider how much people go offto residential conferences and
(05:31):
different places, how muchpeople spend on that, it is not
expensive.
And people think, oh, maybe itcomes back to the self-belief,
the values, or maybe I shouldn'tbe invested in it, Maybe we
need more pencils in year threeor something it's like if, as a
leader, you are not beinginvested in first of all, how
are you going to do your job?
as well as you possibly could doit.
(05:51):
And secondly, you're not beinga very good role model actually,
because we say to children allthe time you need to invest in
yourself, you need to believe.
Look at all this we're givingyou as children in order to grow
and become, and if we, asadults, go?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
yeah, stagnation isn't stagnation what are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
lots of good role models and invest in ourselves.
You know that and it and thething is, it works have you ever
and I'm saying this almostloaded question?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's a
brilliant question provocationhave you ever met some leaders
who consider themselvesuncoachable Leaders?
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I mean, there are a lot of leaders, yes, that's
right, you heard there are a lotof roles at Elouiseche.
Haven't you met leaders whohave had to put on a mask so
long that they think they can'tdo any better and it's all going
really well, and etc.
Usually those leaders.
There are multiple layersunderneath that's a, really,
they're the underdogs.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, they're the underdogs.
Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I think there are sometimes, that there are people
.
I think there are other thingsthat they need to do more than
coaching.
I think that most people thequestion that they have is is it
okay for them to be coached?
What is coaching?
Will you tell me what to do?
Actually, you've got the answer.
Oh, no, I don't have theanswers.
Yes, you do have the answersthe skill of the coach and
(07:19):
that's why, being experiencedcoaches, the skill of the coach
is to be able to find the rightquestion, to draw out something
and bring it out so that peoplesee it in a way that they
wouldn't otherwise see, and thenthey'll do something with it.
So I know I'm quite challengingcoach that would be a pragmatic
coach as well.
So I want to make sure that youhave action points to take away
(07:40):
.
They're not going to besuperficial.
They're going to be things thatmake a difference, right?
So sometimes you ask us isanybody ever unfit?
Or they're no, but people doneed to enter into it.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
As you were speaking, the analogy of you have a
challenge or hurdle, a summit ofsome kind, not Everest, not the
Anamerica.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Anything can do.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Let's say we're before Everest base camp, right?
Speaker 1 (08:05):
We're at the summit, a bit cold, a bit challenging.
We're at the first summit.
We're not quite tackling theresult.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We're getting to the site, we can choose.
We could say, look, there isthis way, yes, and there's also
this way it's shorter, yeah, butit's more challenging, yes, and
there's this way, which willtake more time, but you'll have
a scenic view, yeah.
Now it's up to you, yeah, whichpath you choose to take.
That's right and it's up to youwhat you want to think about.
(08:34):
You're scaling that summit, yes, and I think that painting that
senior, that that scene, yeah,and providing signposts yes, not
even the map, yes, the signpostyes, is what the best coach is
doing, and it be.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This is a result of the work that you've done with
the coach who's helped you seethose that you decide.
Actually, you don't want toscare Everest, you want to go
for canty instead.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Do that you know.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So it's about opening a range of possibilities, yes,
and the question is why do youwant to do that?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Maybe you should do that, that maybe you should do
that, and it's finding whatthose are.
I don't know what those are andin terms of the leaders you've
seen in your career who've hadthe biggest impact, who left a
legacy that is noteworthy.
Yeah, have they had coaches?
And if they have had coaches,how have they interacted with
them?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
yeah.
So I don't need the answer tothat entirely, because you don't
always know if you've hadcoaches or not, but I certainly
know that the best leaders havegot a strong sense of self and
they have not done by themselves, they're absolutely haven't
done it by themselves.
They have had people aroundthem who has thought about
things, who have helped as theyguide, they've helped them guide
(09:53):
themselves, and they have adeep sense of humility, openness
to learning, wisdom.
That comes as a result of thatand that doesn't happen just by
people saying follow my own pathand do it my own way Absolutely
not.
So, yes, I would say yeah,maybe slightly less conventional
ways than you describe now,because now people can have
(10:17):
access to a coach, whereas 50years ago, 60 years ago, that
wasn't an option.
People had to find their ownway.
But isn't it marvelous thatwe're able to speak so much more
about it now than we couldbefore.
It's great, it's useful.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Another angle imposter phenomenon.
I don't call it syndromeanymore, because we share a
negative spin.
Imposter phenomenon how does itfeature on the way to creating
a legacy?
Yes, and what can we do when weget?
Speaker 1 (10:55):
so our development as individuals, from a coach see
the development another leader.
Development is not linear andit's not don't wake up and get
up rooms for a baby.
What's good to do is thisyou're good at that.
It's shaped by all sorts ofthings.
It's shaped by challenge.
It's don't wake up and get outof the room and say we're a baby
, what are we going to do?
Use this, we're going to headthere.
It's shaped by all sorts ofthings.
It's shaped by challenge.
It's shaped by things thatmight appear not to go right,
(11:18):
but actually are often the bestthings that could happen, and
it's shaped by voices fromprevious generations.
So the things that we were toldas children and the well-meaning
things that we were told, whichprobably aren't as helpful as
they could be.
So there's all of that that'sgoing on.
That often leads us to aposition where we think why am I
here doing this?
(11:40):
Why am I here Now?
Everything that you've done istaking you to where you are, so
it's a good thing, actually, andeven that questioning of who we
are.
So we talk about impostersyndrome, imposter phenomenon,
and I think there's somethingabout riding the crest of that
wave.
It's like being conscious ofthe unknown ahead of you, so
(12:05):
there should be a man about it.
Oh my, what is it?
Recognizing what's brought usto where we are and then seeing
how we're going to use that, butalso say thank you to all the
things that have happened in thepast.
I love seeing people on thatjourney.
We don't know exactly what'sgoing to happen in the future.
(12:25):
We do know, however, that wecan shape it and we can be
intentional about it, and we candraw on everything we say, all
our knowledge of ourselves,about embracing of our inner
imposter what do we call it?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
his part, you know what I'm hearing from you, and
that's a lovely coaching.
Yes, what I'm hearing is thisconcept that if we are in a
plane, we're going to do a jump,we're going to parachute out of
the plane.
The imposter phenomenon feelingis almost the parachute.
(12:59):
Yes, so we feel fear, we feelanxiety, but without it perhaps
we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yes, that's a lovely image.
Yes, and you've got instructorsaround you.
Instructors around you, yes,that's exhilarating, that's
right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
sometimes it's daunting you might actually
chicken out yes, and you canalways go again yes, I think
you're thinking of it more as agarment rather than as a persona
.
Yes is actually helpful.
Yes, and I think the otherdigital toolbox is something
that I like.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
that idea of the parachute oh, we'll take this a
little further.
It's going to be lovely for us.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, so yeah, my brain always when I'm thinking
of things, and I'm sure thispart is with you too, I've
spoken to manifest or tovisualize a hurdle or a barrier.
Earlier, when I was speaking toPriya Mitchell, we were talking
(13:57):
about relationships beingcritical for us and caring
cultures.
And on the way as we werewalking here.
We were talking aboutrelationships for leaders and
legacy yes, but we were talkingabout the fact that when people
say to me relationship, Iactually imagine a ship being
constructed every time.
Yes, we is.
So we start with a plank ofwood and then, slowly but surely
(14:20):
, we create this.
It's a majestic image, so it'salways there that relationship
once formed is always there,yeah, and just built upon yeah
yes, and the dimensions are verydifferent ways, but that that
also reads true of how weconceptualize ourselves and our
leadership.
So if you visualize yourleadership, you visualize it as
(14:41):
an object or a place you know,we often do activities like that
what is your leadership?
if you could it, if you couldanalyze it, how would it feel to
walk through it and how is itto?
If you were there, what wouldthe sound be?
What would the pictures be, andit seems quite abstract to some
(15:02):
people, but in doing so you areexploring.
You're exploring and alsogrowing your brain.
It's neuroplastic.
The activity.
And people say to me so whydon't you do leadership?
Do you just talk to people andyou know it's well-meaning.
It's well-meaning, but thisidea that you can turn a
(15:25):
construct, something quiteabstract, something that someone
can carry within them, yes, andactually move with it.
Yes, in a way that helps themto feel more secure within
themselves.
Yes, that is the leadership ofthe self.
So, coaching, and we talk aboutthat, or when we are trying to
create coaches- yes.
(15:45):
Or have a coaching spirit withinour school.
Yes, it starts with knowingoneself, absolutely, totally.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That goes back to the very first point I made.
When you had the very firstquestion.
You asked exactly that, yeah,it starts with knowing yourself,
but it doesn't mean that youknow yourself entirely.
Yeah, in order to be able to bea great leader, a good coach,
it doesn't.
It does mean that you need tobe on a quest towards and that I
think every day we should knowourselves that little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
We have actively reflected on that we don't have
spent hours doing that the besttime to reflect on yourself is
because we're busy leaders,right, busy people.
When, if we I know I know wherewe're going to go with the
answer to this, but if you were,if someone was like I don't
have time to reflect, what wouldyour advice be to them on when
(16:34):
they might start to?
What's the stepping stone?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
so two things.
That one is we always have time.
We always have time.
There are things that once webecome a habit that we will do
there.
People do not forget to cleantheir teeth in the morning.
They just do it, and yet thattakes a little time, doesn't it?
We don't forget to do thatbecause you know it's important
to be brought up to do it.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
We do it, etc.
It might actually be becausethere's a cause and effect to
that.
So if I don't brush my teeth,my teeth won't look the same,
and if I don't brush my teeth Imight have a bad impression.
I might give out, people mightsmell my smoothie, but so I'm
going to be forced to do it.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
For that reason, yes, but you didn't know that until
you were told that and youactually practiced it.
And then you realized at somepoint in your life, when you
didn't do that, that was the soyou learned that?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
yeah, so you never don't have time to brush it
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So there is always time.
There is always time you,there's always time to breathe,
there is always time to eat somesomething, there's always time
to notice, and it can take a fewseconds to do that.
The second point I want to make, though, is that if you haven't
been doing it, then youabsolutely need to practice, and
you need to schedule it, andyou need to stack that habit
(17:43):
onto another habit, and sothere's a trigger for you to do
it, because otherwise, you couldsay, yes, I want to do that,
I'll do that at some point,because you should do it,
because you haven't built it in.
We're saying that maybe peoplecould use their teeth brushing
moments to be able to reflect onsuch because it's best to be
two minutes there you go andstart with two minutes there we,
we go.
What's the day?
Well, that's four minutesSorted.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Exactly.
Or the shower.
A lot of people say that's whatwe're doing, and in coaching we
often signpost when you'rebrushing your teeth, yes, and
when you're having a shower orsomeone cancels a meeting, yes,
and then there's a dead timebetween the next one.
(18:28):
It's a gift of time.
It's the opportunity to comeout of the rigmarole of the next
and the next and havingapplause, the power of applause.
We used to talk about this.
We used to talk aboutstrategically composing
ourselves.
Not composing ourselves becausethere's a stressor, but
actually taking the time to beintentional about it.
To be intentional, yeah, andthen and I always pick this up
(18:49):
when I'm watching you does thatmean I have to become a yogi?
Does that mean I have to startdoing all of these breathing
exercises and all of that?
It goes in different directions.
It doesn't have to be so heavy?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Not at all, because it's not one thing or the other.
We do live in a world whichtends to be quite polarised.
It's either I'm not going tothink about myself at all or I'm
going to spend the next sixyears on the foot of this wall.
So it's not that I mean that'sright.
It's those little things thatare balanced with other things.
You make your choice.
(19:20):
It's not like you're having tofit absolutely everything in.
It's a question, and it's notlike you're having to fit
absolutely everything in becauseit's a question.
There's something that I know Iwould like to do, that I'm
going to be able to do it.
It's something that I reallyfeel compelled to do because I
can see how it's developing me.
I'm absolutely going to do that.
Right, you can do that.
It is there.
(19:40):
You can do that.
A coach helps remind you ofthat and make sure that you're
on track as far as that'sconcerned holds you to account.
You will do it.
You will do it because youbelieve that it's really
important to do it's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Um, on the point of changing, just making a small
shift, making a tiny shift, I'veactually this week had a alarm
at this is a true story 7 am,yes, and 9 pm to remind me to
just breathe, and I know that'sreally weird, maybe it sounds um
(20:16):
, but when it pops up itactually really surprises me.
Yes, did you forgot becauseI've forgotten?
Yes, that I can take a reallydeep breath and just calm myself
down.
So tell me what's the impact ofyou doing that for you.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
What's the experience you've had?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So I've reset myself to be intentional about taking a
breath, because I'm a growthperson, I'm doing lots of things
and sometimes I just don'tthink, yeah, consciously about
it and by having that trigger,reminder, the nudge yes the
nudge to just take a really deepbreath, just two or three of
(20:56):
them, and I think the power ofjust yeah, just one.
Yeah, one leads to two, andthen, if I'm in a calm state, my
whole evening looks different.
Yes, or the rest of the nightlooks different, and I've set it
to seven because I'm normallyon the way, or getting up, or on
the way, yes, and my head'slike I'm either frantic.
(21:20):
Yes so it's just it justre-centers.
Yeah, and that just a fewbreaths?
Yeah, because I think I readsomewhere that if you calm your
pulse yes, at least twice a dayyour general wellbeing is
impacted.
Yes, and it's been the ninthday of it.
Yes, and I think I am a littlebit more centered.
(21:43):
Yes, and it's just like fourdeep breath yes.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
So what I'm hearing from me, what I'm guessing that
you've actually given the answerthere, is that you just you
didn't wake up one morning,think, oh right, and just do a
few deep breaths.
You actually thought about, youtalked about feeling centered,
so a goal to feel centered.
You talked about your generalwell-being and that would be a
goal that you had for yourgeneral well-being.
And you've identified, partlythrough your reading, partly
(22:08):
through listening to it, you'veidentified that this is the way
in which you're going to try andyou're going to experiment.
Do that, not only that,actually that strength of mine.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So I play to my strength, scheduling yes and
saying structure, yes.
What can I do that I'm alreadydoing really well?
Yes, that enables me to do thisthing, but at the same time I
don't.
Maybe I'm not naturally leaningto it, because I'm wanting to
fill my day with as much aspossible, so I use my own raps.
You can really support me.
(22:39):
So I think, if you'reidentifying your strengths well,
you can use your strengths forfor your goals and try and line
them up.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
One self back to that and you have those goals,
you've created those goals andcoaching that process that
you've gone through, using yourown skills as a coach, with you,
that's led you to go.
Ah yes, I've got these goals.
I'm going to do something aboutit and I think it's a little
bit of practice what you preachas well.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Because I'm always telling people time blocks your
footnotes and that, and when youexperience it and you tell
people of your own experience,you're speaking from a source.
You're giving them a case studywhich is live.
You say I did it and this ishow I felt.
Why don't you try it Just a fewdays?
(23:27):
And sometimes that's what makesthe ball bearing you know, just
take over, and I would say thatwhen you've done it and you've
convinced yourself, you're thena lot more effective as a coach
with others.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yes, I think that's true.
I think that's very true, andthat applies not necessarily
just to the breathing andwell-being though that's very
important for everybody but it'sabout people's career
trajectories and when youexperience things and sometimes
precariously experience thingsfor other people, you know that
this is possible and even justhaving that confidence as a
coach not to tell people what todo you know it and then you
(24:06):
know which questions to ask inorder to get people to go.
Oh yeah, I think I'll do thatabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And I found in my uh when I coached uh heads and
leaders, when you, when theystart having series of coaching
sessions, they start creatingthe fact that you're eliciting
from your your.
I know why you're up and I knewthe question you're going to
ask.
But brilliant, brilliant,brilliant.
(24:32):
So it's great because thosethinking routines, yes, those,
those moments of reflection, ifthey're pre-empting them, it's
when the toothbrushing becomesautomatic if they're adopting
and absorbing the experience,and I think that's another
reason why coaching is socritical, because yes when
you've experienced it as someuser coachee, when you're then
(24:52):
the coach, you.
It's a two-way synergy thatcomes up for me.
Lastly, just lastly, what wouldbe your key advice to someone
who's just hanging on, justhanging on?
They can't see their legacyright now.
They can't see their work fromthe trees.
They're just hanging on day today, meeting to meeting, email
(25:14):
to email, moment to moment.
What would be your advice?
Speaker 1 (25:17):
you mean, apart from getting a coach, because the
coach is this, I would say,apart from yeah, go for a walk.
Yes, apart from sleep more yes,apart from that is break for a
second, and it needs a lot.
But break, think and ask thequestion, because you need to
think differently.
(25:37):
You need to be in a positionwhere you're going to say I'm
going to do this differently.
So you need, therefore, tophysically relocate to another
place, another part of theschool, another part of a park,
rather than stay at home,whatever it is.
Change.
Relocate yourself physicallyfor a bit and ask the question
(25:57):
I'm pausing just listen.
And then internally, internally, and listen, and you won't have
the answers all there, butthat's where, if you start with
that, it's like those fewseconds of grief and it's going
to be something.
It will come to you who it is,who's going to help you.
If this is happening, chancesare there are lots of things
(26:20):
going on.
You could do what you deservesomebody to help, walk alongside
you.
So that means very much whatyou're saying physically.
Put yourself somewhere mentally, put yourself somewhere
emotionally and just ask thequestion what am I doing, where
am I going, how am I going to do?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
and who do I trust or who, yeah, who could be, who
could I lean on?
Because leaders often are theones people lean on and we need
that network around those two.
On that note, we always go deepand deep dive even though
they've stopped them.
Often they've stopped them now.
We love a good deep dive intocoaching and theory and practice
(27:00):
and people, and I thinkgenuinely we both love people
and I see coaching comes fromthat love of humanity and that's
legacy, isn't it?
It has to some people.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, and I think generally, genuinely, we both
love people?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
yes, and I think coaching comes from that yes,
humanity and that's legacy.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yes, indeed, that's who we are.
Yeah, thank you so much, mygreat pleasure.
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