November 17, 2024 • 27 mins
In this episode, Katrina Mankani, Director of Jumeirah International Nurseries, Board Member of Fortes Education, and Director of Innovation and Positive Education at Fortes Education, shares her remarkable journey from teaching assistant to educational leader.
She reveals how implementing positive education and the PERMA model has transformed her school's culture, improving the well-being of both students and staff. Katrina offers practical insights on balancing innovation with stability, from embracing AI to fostering gratitude, while sharing actionable strategies for educational leaders navigating today's rapidly evolving landscape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi everyone.
This is Lisa Grace coming toyou with another episode of the
Teach Middle East podcast.
I was just offline talking toKatrina working out her many
hats, but I'm happy to haveKatrina Mankani on the podcast
with me today and I'm going tomake my best attempt at
introducing the lady that wearsmany hats.
So she is the director ofJumeirah International Nurseries
(00:37):
, but she's also a board memberof Fortis Education.
She is also see, I told youthere are several hats here
she's also the Director ofPositive Education and
Innovation at Fortis Education.
Did I nail them all, katrina?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You did.
Lisa, thank you very much, andit's such a pleasure to be with
you today on the podcast.
I'm sure you're the lady thatwears even more hats and
definitely knows how to get thebest out of the people that come
from her podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I try.
The listeners know I trybecause I love a good chat, and
I love a good chat abouteducation, and I'm really
looking forward to talking toyou today about innovations in
educational leadership.
Wow, what a mouthful.
Let me start with a little bitof history, though, katrina.
What got you into education?
What's your leading into thisrole?
(01:32):
Where did it start?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
First of all, it was the passion to do something good
, and it sounds very hallmarky,but that was all it was about.
I actually got my master's inpublic administration.
I wanted to work in thegovernment, but the life brought
me far away from my country ofbirth and I ended up here in
Dubai, and at a very young age Icame across the Jumeirah
(01:54):
International Nursery, where Ihave actually walked my way up
from a teaching assistant to ateacher, to a nursery manager
and then, from 2015, I'm themanaging director, and so that
was my journey.
Meanwhile, I also studied a lotabout students well-being,
mental health and value-basededucation, and that helped me to
(02:17):
grow.
The in the beginning was callededucation and human values in
one of our schools, in RegionInternational School, and then
it all graduated into positiveeducation, which is now the
ethos of Fortis Education.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Talk to me a little bit about positive education and
why we ought to be payingattention to that at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
There are many reasons.
So, first of all, positiveeducation.
What is it?
You can define it in differentways.
The way we define it at ourschools is that it's a science
of education at its best, andit's when you put the well-being
of the child at the heart ofeducation.
So we, as teachers, need toremember we don't teach math or
science or English.
We teach a student, and thatstudent needs to be taught
(02:59):
holistically.
So first you need to build arapport with them, you need to
understand their predicament,you need to know how to react to
their successes and failures ina way that build more
resilience and trust rather thanjust mere compliance.
So positive education is aboutlike this parallel stream of
extra attention that teachersand leaders need to pay to.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I'm actually quite interested in
understanding the effects thatyou have seen in your schools
with the implementation ofpositive education.
Where have you seen the biggestchanges?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
The changes are massive.
Actually.
An interesting thing is thatthe changes are fast and slow at
the same time.
They're small and incrementallybig at the same time as well.
So let me just give youexamples.
So first of all, all ford'seducation teachers have to go
through positive educationtraining, all our school
teachers.
(03:57):
When they arrive to our schoolsfor three days, they spend
their time during induction withme and my team and we tell them
take your teacher's hat off,let's talk about you as people.
So first let's see how can youimplement PERMA.
You know basically the theory ofwell-being into your life.
How do you build positiveemotions in your life?
(04:19):
How do you build relationship?
What is your engagement level?
You know what is youraccomplishment and how you
promote it in your life.
How do you build relationship?
What is your engagement level?
You know what is youraccomplishment and how you
promote it in your life.
What's your meaning and purpose?
And then, when we make themthink about themselves, we
basically say now how do youbring it into your classroom?
And we have seen the change,first of all in the people that
come to us when this is thefirst interaction that they have
(04:42):
with the school.
That makes them feel verycomfortable about their choice
of a workplace and then, as theyenter into the day-to-day work,
there is an atmosphere ofsupport of everybody in striving
towards this right.
So that's in terms of teachers.
And yes, sometimes we do itright, sometimes we do it wrong.
(05:03):
And let's just face it,everybody comes with a different
baseline.
Somebody is just by nature moregrateful than others, somebody
is more loving than others, andthat's just fine.
And the key here is just toaccept that we are all different
and build on each other'sstrengths rather than weaknesses
.
And I guess one of the benefitsof this mindset in our school
that we constantly talk aboutstrengths what's your strengths,
(05:25):
what's my strengths?
Let's build on each other'sstrengths rather than focus on
what we are doing wrong.
Let's correct what we are doingwrong and remind ourselves that
failure is a first attempt inlearning.
It's not the end.
And with the students, we'veseen a lot of things.
First of all, because we startteaching them about this from a
very young age, we tend to havechildren who are more self-aware
(05:47):
.
We have students at the age offive and six who can explain to
you what self-control is andwhat perseverance is, which is
great.
Now, as they grow.
Of course they go through theirown turbulations and turbulence
and they're changing.
They're growing into teenagers,but overall we have a very
positive, supportive environmentin the school.
(06:09):
We don't have behavior policy.
We have restorative justicepolicy and that policy is
underpinned not by the schoolrules but by our code of
character and conduct, which wasactually written by students
themselves and which answers thequestion if we were all to live
the happy life which haspositive emotions,
(06:32):
accomplishment, engagement,relationship, meaning and
purpose and health, how would itlook, feel and sound in school?
And the students themselveswrote this.
So for good relationship, weneed to treat others as we want
to be treated.
We need to blah, blah, blah andso all of this they've written
and this is all over the school.
It's our code of character thateverybody pledges to abide to.
(06:52):
However, this atmosphere isvery it's intangible, so it
needs constant reinforcement.
So you know, if we talk aboutleadership, leaders must
reinforce it through theireveryday interaction with
everybody, with their teams andwith students, with parents.
So it's a lot of work actuallyto keep this afloat.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So let me get practical with you, then,
katrina, because, let's say, astudent's behavior is not up to
scratch.
How does this restorativejustice practice come into play?
Like?
What does it look like if achild is persistently
misbehaving?
What happens?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Okay.
So, first of all, persistentmisbehavior has various reasons.
So we always say that ifsomebody is persistently showing
the behavior that is deviatingfrom the norm, we need to ask
ourselves as teachers, where isthe need or where is the
strength?
So there must be one of two.
It's either the strength is notmet right let's say the student
(07:54):
is bored in class or there mustbe different reasons for this.
There can be a strength here orthere is a need the student
feels unsupported.
So we need to address one ofthe two.
If it's not the need of thestrengths, or if the misbehavior
is not happening in the school,like in the classroom
environment, but let's say, inthe break with another student
(08:14):
and there is a constant fight,right, then we need to again go
back to okay, how do we teachthis young adults if we're
talking about teenagers toactually reconcile their
differences?
So, practically, let me tellyou how it works in practice.
So restorative justice is builton four R's respect,
(08:35):
responsibility, repair andreintegration.
So of course we teach them torespect each other and we talk a
lot about it.
Of course we tell them that forevery disrespect becomes
responsibility that is causingeffect.
But the key for restorativejustice is the reparation, and
the reparation is basically thepunishment.
So there is no punishment perse, there is a reparation.
(08:56):
And let's say simply, if thestudent broke a table, it's very
easy, you repair a table, butif they if they broke
relationship, what do theyrepair?
That's where the restorativeconversations come in.
So I'll give you an example.
So let's talk about I.
I had a case last year with twogirls that were actually
(09:16):
troubling each other for thepast one and a half years and
that all started in primary.
Now they're're in secondary,it's year seven, it's September,
and it started again.
So myself and a head of heremet them and there was a whole
restorative conversation planthat was built on taking their
differences onto a third story.
(09:38):
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I did.
I said ladies, it looks likethere's a problem that both of
you are facing and that problemis your common misunderstanding.
Do you agree with that?
So you bring them to a commonproblem because both of them
don't like what's happening, andthen you ask each one of them
to describe what they're facingand how they're feeling.
(09:59):
And it's very interestingbecause when one of them was
describing and when she doesthis is how I feel the other one
was looking and almost insurprise and in disbelief
because she didn't think that'show she was feeling.
And each one was given a wordand then each one that was given
the chance to suggest thereparation and the future steps
(10:19):
and what they've agreed to eachother that the most repairing
thing for them would be to justavoid each other.
All right, and how to avoideach other.
They literally we were goingthrough examples.
So if you meet each other inthe corridor, how are you going
to avoid each other?
If somebody invites you to thesame party, how are you?
going to avoid each other and Iwas asking them this to answer
(10:40):
these questions and decidetogether.
So in the end they walked inand, though they went other
separate ways, they worked outthrough a solution together.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I like that.
I was thinking how are theyavoiding each other in the same
school, like a separate entranceor like what was going on there
?
But I love the fact that theycame up with the solutions
themselves and, yeah, thank youso much.
That was a really good example.
I want to talk a little bitabout the well-being piece to
your role.
(11:09):
Well-being is such a how do Iput this without offending all
the well-being warriors?
It's such a hairy fairy conceptwhen it comes to schools,
because there's such amisunderstanding in the space as
to what schools can do to helpto increase well-being,
especially among staff.
Some think it's chocolates anddonuts, which I'm like you're
(11:31):
giving them sugar.
That is just not it.
Some think it's all theselittle notes in my cubbyhole
periphery.
What are your thoughts on whatdrives well-being in schools?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I'm actually with you on this.
I don't think that donut makesanybody feel better.
They just get some heartburnafter that and guilt feeling.
We need to go back to again thescience of well-being.
What really gives people thewell-being?
First of all, understandingyour meaning and purpose.
What are you here for?
What do you wake up everymorning for?
(12:04):
Why do you come to school?
When we do the training with theteachers, I ask them to think
through their life journey, getthe strengths from all the
crucibles they had on the way,like basically the moments that
made them stronger and thenwrite their mission statement
and then compare it to themission statement of Fortress
Education and say do they meet?
(12:27):
And if they meet, if you're inthe right place, you're in the
right place.
You just need to continueleaving your mission statement
inside our school and inside themission statement and remind
yourself every time about this.
Whenever you wake up and youdon't know why you need to go to
work, you remind yourself aboutyour mission statement.
So, mission and purpose.
Next, relationship how do wepromote relationship between
(12:49):
each other?
So the people in theirdepartment are they supporting
each other?
The line managers are theysupporting?
Do teachers know who to lean in, do they know who to go and
talk to when they need help,right?
Next accomplishment we don'thave to all become the best
teacher of the year in Dubai tofeel accomplished.
How do we make each other feelaccomplished, right?
(13:12):
How do we celebrate?
So those notes they can workwhen they actually are on point
right, so they are for something.
So you can create a gratitudewall, you can create a certain
mechanism where you know, likewhat we have in school, we have
like a gratitude service, if youfeel that somebody has done
something that you want tocelebrate, and you put it on
(13:32):
that survey and you actually orwe have a culture actually where
people by themselves decide topost a gratitude message to the
whole school, so I want to saythat today that person helped me
so much, blah, blah, blah.
And it happens in the cultureThen.
So engagement, how?
What is engagement actually?
So by you know, mihi chicks andmihi flow theory says that
(13:56):
engage.
People go into the engagementchannel, the flow channel, when
the challenge is a little bithigher than the skill, just a
little bit.
So if the challenge is so highthat people are very anxious,
but when the challenge is toolow, then they become bored.
So it's the same thing in theclassroom.
It's differentiation.
So how do we as leaders, youknow, if we talk about
(14:18):
innovative leaders, how do we asleaders understand?
How do we differentiate?
Who do we give more supportthan others?
And then we go to the last one,the positive emotions.
You know Barbara Fredricksontalks about broad and build.
So broaden your understandingof what is a positive emotion
and what kind of makes you feelgood, and then build the
frequency of it.
(14:38):
So maybe it's not about donuts,but it's about some kind of fun
.
So what I noticed is that whenin St Mark's school we started
switching on music on Fridaysafter the students like, while
the students were going home,people were dancing in the
corridors.
Small thing, but it builds thefrequency of your positive
emotions.
And then we started changingthe songs so that people would
(15:02):
be like, oh, what's the songtoday?
And then we asked people tosuggest their songs.
So small things can create amassive difference if we look at
the science of what makespeople happy, but it's
definitely not just Donald's.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and I also think an atmosphere of safety to
say what one thinks safety, toknow that they are being heard,
and also the respect of one'stime, where they know someone
will not infringe on theirpersonal time or space.
These things lead people tofeel well.
If I know that I will not bebombarded at 5pm on a Friday
(15:40):
with crazy emails from school, Iwill feel better.
That helps my well-being.
So things of that nature.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
You know, lisa, this is a very interesting topic for
me because we use MicrosoftTeams and what we have learned
that we have to put theresponsibility for not being
bombarded to the person whodoesn't want to be bombarded.
Because let me give you anexample there are some teachers
who have additionalresponsibilities in the school
(16:10):
or who have children andda-da-da-da-da and they prefer
actually to work at 8 o'clock inthe evening.
Right Now.
Microsoft Teams just recentlyhad a function where you can
delay the message.
Just recently, and email had itbefore.
So that was an etiquette, thatif you're sending an email,
choose the time when you want itto be delivered With the Teams
you can do it before.
So that was an etiquette, thatif you're sending an email,
choose the time when you want itto be delivered With the Teams.
(16:33):
You can do it now.
But before we used to say thatif you don't want to be
bombarded after 5 pm, microsoftTeams has a setting that says
after 5 pm, switch off thenotification.
But you as an individual, youswitch off notification because
it suits your work rules.
But I cannot prescribe therules of work to those people
(16:57):
who want to work after hoursbecause they feel less anxious
next morning when they actuallyopen their computer at eight
o'clock while they're drinkingnight cup.
Right, so that helps with.
So what I'm saying is it helpsto put the responsibility on
each individual for their ownwell-being rather than make it
everybody's responsibility.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yes, I like that, but also, I just think,
institutional parameters andexpectations, because I might
turn off my notifications and goin the next morning and someone
says to me in a stern voice didyou not see the email I sent to
you at 7.55 pm?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You are absolutely right, Lisa.
So what we are doing is that wehave many years ago we said
that culture that don't expectto receive a reply after 5 pm
actually, after 4.30 forteachers, after 5 for leaders.
Don't expect to receive, atleast unless it's something
urgent.
And if it's something urgent,don't do it on Teams, do it on
WhatsApp.
(17:54):
That's our culture.
But if it's not urgent, you cansend it.
But you, if you receive it at 7pm, don't be offended that it
came to you at 7 pm becauseyou're not expected to check.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, ok, awesome.
I'm a very I'm sticklish forlittle things like that, because
when people talk to me aboutwellbeing, because I taught for
so long and I've worked in somany schools and I've led
schools, I know that the theoryof wellbeing and the practice
thereof are far apart in manycases.
(18:26):
So I'm very kind of sticklish.
I hope you understand.
Let's put your innovation haton now, katrina, and let's talk
leadership and innovation.
Innovation is very messy.
How do we maintain a stablelearning environment while still
looking to innovate and makethose changes that are needed,
especially when it comes tothings like education technology
(18:50):
or new methodologies?
How do we maintain stabilityand innovation that crazy
balance.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It goes back to setting the stage for your ethos
again from the very beginning.
Hey, we're an innovative school, we're a learning school.
We learn and we get intolearning pit, and that's also
normal.
And we are going to step intothis vulnerability of sitting in
the pit and not knowing how todo it, and it will be messy, but
(19:18):
then we will prototype, we willideate, we will prototype, we
will fail and then we will comeup with the final version that
we may need to reiterate againafter some time, but it's all
normal.
So I guess normalizing thatinnovation is messy and it's
never ending, and we feel it nowvery much with AI.
(19:40):
The way we went around it isthat we took a lot of our
leaders from various phases anddepartments and even from head
office and we send them for avery long AI in-person training
and then after that we said, ok,now we tinker with this and we
tinker in our smaller groups andlet's see where we go with it,
and so we ended up with a prettygood structure.
(20:02):
After one year of tinkering andbeing in this mess of
innovation, we are now in avalidation state and then we
will reiterate how it works.
But the world is moving so fastand unfortunately, education is
always behind.
Teachers today know less aboutAI than the students.
We need to catch up if we wantto be relevant and if we really
(20:26):
want to prepare our students tosome degree, yeah, as much as we
try to be at the cutting edge,is moving faster than I think we
can.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I think, just because education has historically been
a little bit latent in how itresponds to change, we are going
to have to double down ourefforts, especially in this AI
age, to be able to be even onpar, let alone ahead, of our
students.
In your experience, though,what are some of the most
(20:55):
effective strategies leaders canadopt to empower their staff to
take ownership of their rolesin driving innovation in school?
It's a mouthful, but I want toknow how can leaders take that
empowerment to their staff toallow them to feel safe and to
(21:16):
take ownership of driving thatinnovation, because it can't go
anywhere unless the staff driveit.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I always say think about what is in it for them.
Will this innovation make theirwork faster, more efficient or
more clunky and slower?
If it's more clunky and slower,don't expect them to innovate
in this or use it.
They will just kill it, andthat's normal.
That's human nature.
So how do we make it?
(21:46):
How do we sell it to them sothat it is beneficial for them?
So either you remove somethingelse and say, okay, if you do
this kind of system, then youdon't need to do that kind of
system.
And even if, for some time, youare running two different
systems, it's fine.
And we did that many years agowhen I don't know if you're
aware about CenturyTech.
(22:07):
It was a very nice AI system.
So when we were testing it, wejust said to some teachers you
don't need to evaluate studentsbased on our normal system if
you use CenturyTech and you doyour evaluation there.
Right.
And then slowly we built ourevaluation differently.
But that is how we engage thefirst adopters and those who
(22:28):
were testing it and bringingtheir feedback to us.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, I think when we think about empowering our
staff as well, I often wonderhow much autonomy the staff have
on choosing their own learningopportunities, because a lot of
it tends to sometimes in someschools be very prescriptive.
You will take this course, youwill go to this event, rather
(22:51):
than the staff coming and going.
I would like to take this coursebecause it fits with my mission
and vision and who I am and mypurpose as an educator.
Or I'd like to attend thisconference because there are
these presenters and I wouldlove to hear their viewpoints on
X or Y.
And so I wonder, especially inyour schools, what opportunities
(23:13):
are there for staff to choosetheir own learning opportunities
?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, so in both St Mark School and Region
International School, we do both.
We of course prescribe certaintrainings that everybody needs
to be aware of, but there isalso an opportunity for internal
CPD, which is by choice, youknow, and we run parallel
streams and then we do sendpeople for the other training,
(23:36):
the outside training, which isagain by their choice.
They just need to.
It depends on where, but thereis an opportunity to choose.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, and what's the advantage of doing both?
What's the advantage of havingthat internal stuff and that
external stuff in yourestimation?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Every school, I'm sure, has its own way right, its
own way of learning andmanaging.
Learning and managing manythings.
For us, for example, it'spositive education, so we need
to update people in our ways.
Learning and managing manythings.
For us, for example, it'spositive education, so we need
to update people in our ways, sothey need to know how we do
(24:15):
things.
So it's in all thenon-negotiables.
And then, of course, everybodyis on a different path in terms
of a different stage of theirlearning.
So whatever makes sense forthem and whatever their interest
is also respected, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So we've talked innovation, we've talked
well-being, we've talkedleadership.
Let's talk about you for asecond.
What are you excited aboutright now in education?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Oh, I'm actually excited and scared at the same
time, because I wonder how ourworld is going to change in a
very short period of time.
What's going to happen in fiveyears Before I could at least
draw an outline?
Now I don't know, and what Iquestion myself as an educator,
(24:55):
what skills really matter inschool.
So I think I'm in a moreprivileged position here,
because for many years I've beena promoter of positive
education and I still think thatthis is one of the most
valuable skills that we canteach children how to take care
of their well-being and how tounderstand themselves as humans.
(25:16):
That is going to stay.
So the resilience, theadaptability, so all the
personal skills that we'reteaching in our schools, they
will stay even if everythingelse fails.
But what else?
How quick will the exam boardsrespond to the current situation
?
How will the universityadmission change?
So that is things that keep meup at night.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I don't want them to keep you up, I want to know it.
I hope they're not making youlack sleep.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
No, I tell you, lisa, I was last week, I was in
Harvard.
I was at Harvard doing theprogram in perils and promise of
technology, and the wholecourse was just about AI, and
what I understood in the end ofthe week is just one simple
thing Even the Harvardprofessors don't know what's
going to happen in five years,so we all can just put very fair
(26:07):
predictions.
So we just see how it unfolds.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Wow, what are you reading currently?
That's my last question.
I love to ask this questionbecause when I talk to smart
people, I want to know whatthey're reading.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
I'm one of those people that reads multiple books
at the same time based on mymood, and recently I'm actually
deep into podcasts.
I find them super interesting.
I just finished Elon Musk'sbiography the last one.
It's fascinating how one humancan bring so much innovation in
(26:40):
the world, fascinating andactually what it takes.
You know all the hard work and,yes, he's a Merrick, but wow,
what he created is incredible.
And the other book that I havefinished recently was Untethered
Soul by Michael Singer Awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you for being on the podcast, katrina, thank
you.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Thank you so much.
It's been really wonderful totalk to you and thank you for
all your thought provokingquestions.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi everyone.
This is Lisa Grace coming toyou with another episode of the
Teach Middle East podcast.
I was just offline talking toKatrina working out her many
hats, but I'm happy to haveKatrina Mankani on the podcast
with me today and I'm going tomake my best attempt at
introducing the lady that wearsmany hats.
So she is the director ofJumeirah International Nurseries
(00:37):
, but she's also a board memberof Fortis Education.
She is also see, I told youthere are several hats here
she's also the Director ofPositive Education and
Innovation at Fortis Education.
Did I nail them all, katrina?
Speaker 3 (00:55):
You did.
Lisa, thank you very much, andit's such a pleasure to be with
you today on the podcast.
I'm sure you're the lady thatwears even more hats and
definitely knows how to get thebest out of the people that come
from her podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I try.
The listeners know I trybecause I love a good chat, and
I love a good chat abouteducation, and I'm really
looking forward to talking toyou today about innovations in
educational leadership.
Wow, what a mouthful.
Let me start with a little bitof history, though, katrina.
What got you into education?
What's your leading into thisrole?
(01:32):
Where did it start?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
First of all, it was the passion to do something good
, and it sounds very hallmarky,but that was all it was about.
I actually got my master's inpublic administration.
I wanted to work in thegovernment, but the life brought
me far away from my country ofbirth and I ended up here in
Dubai, and at a very young age Icame across the Jumeirah
(01:54):
International Nursery, where Ihave actually walked my way up
from a teaching assistant to ateacher, to a nursery manager
and then, from 2015, I'm themanaging director, and so that
was my journey.
Meanwhile, I also studied a lotabout students well-being,
mental health and value-basededucation, and that helped me to
(02:17):
grow.
The in the beginning was callededucation and human values in
one of our schools, in RegionInternational School, and then
it all graduated into positiveeducation, which is now the
ethos of Fortis Education.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Talk to me a little bit about positive education and
why we ought to be payingattention to that at the moment.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
There are many reasons.
So, first of all, positiveeducation.
What is it?
You can define it in differentways.
The way we define it at ourschools is that it's a science
of education at its best, andit's when you put the well-being
of the child at the heart ofeducation.
So we, as teachers, need toremember we don't teach math or
science or English.
We teach a student, and thatstudent needs to be taught
(02:59):
holistically.
So first you need to build arapport with them, you need to
understand their predicament,you need to know how to react to
their successes and failures ina way that build more
resilience and trust rather thanjust mere compliance.
So positive education is aboutlike this parallel stream of
extra attention that teachersand leaders need to pay to.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I'm actually quite interested in
understanding the effects thatyou have seen in your schools
with the implementation ofpositive education.
Where have you seen the biggestchanges?
Speaker 3 (03:37):
The changes are massive.
Actually.
An interesting thing is thatthe changes are fast and slow at
the same time.
They're small and incrementallybig at the same time as well.
So let me just give youexamples.
So first of all, all ford'seducation teachers have to go
through positive educationtraining, all our school
teachers.
(03:57):
When they arrive to our schoolsfor three days, they spend
their time during induction withme and my team and we tell them
take your teacher's hat off,let's talk about you as people.
So first let's see how can youimplement PERMA.
You know basically the theory ofwell-being into your life.
How do you build positiveemotions in your life?
(04:19):
How do you build relationship?
What is your engagement level?
You know what is youraccomplishment and how you
promote it in your life.
How do you build relationship?
What is your engagement level?
You know what is youraccomplishment and how you
promote it in your life.
What's your meaning and purpose?
And then, when we make themthink about themselves, we
basically say now how do youbring it into your classroom?
And we have seen the change,first of all in the people that
come to us when this is thefirst interaction that they have
(04:42):
with the school.
That makes them feel verycomfortable about their choice
of a workplace and then, as theyenter into the day-to-day work,
there is an atmosphere ofsupport of everybody in striving
towards this right.
So that's in terms of teachers.
And yes, sometimes we do itright, sometimes we do it wrong.
(05:03):
And let's just face it,everybody comes with a different
baseline.
Somebody is just by nature moregrateful than others, somebody
is more loving than others, andthat's just fine.
And the key here is just toaccept that we are all different
and build on each other'sstrengths rather than weaknesses
.
And I guess one of the benefitsof this mindset in our school
that we constantly talk aboutstrengths what's your strengths,
(05:25):
what's my strengths?
Let's build on each other'sstrengths rather than focus on
what we are doing wrong.
Let's correct what we are doingwrong and remind ourselves that
failure is a first attempt inlearning.
It's not the end.
And with the students, we'veseen a lot of things.
First of all, because we startteaching them about this from a
very young age, we tend to havechildren who are more self-aware
(05:47):
.
We have students at the age offive and six who can explain to
you what self-control is andwhat perseverance is, which is
great.
Now, as they grow.
Of course they go through theirown turbulations and turbulence
and they're changing.
They're growing into teenagers,but overall we have a very
positive, supportive environmentin the school.
(06:09):
We don't have behavior policy.
We have restorative justicepolicy and that policy is
underpinned not by the schoolrules but by our code of
character and conduct, which wasactually written by students
themselves and which answers thequestion if we were all to live
the happy life which haspositive emotions,
(06:32):
accomplishment, engagement,relationship, meaning and
purpose and health, how would itlook, feel and sound in school?
And the students themselveswrote this.
So for good relationship, weneed to treat others as we want
to be treated.
We need to blah, blah, blah andso all of this they've written
and this is all over the school.
It's our code of character thateverybody pledges to abide to.
(06:52):
However, this atmosphere isvery it's intangible, so it
needs constant reinforcement.
So you know, if we talk aboutleadership, leaders must
reinforce it through theireveryday interaction with
everybody, with their teams andwith students, with parents.
So it's a lot of work actuallyto keep this afloat.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So let me get practical with you, then,
katrina, because, let's say, astudent's behavior is not up to
scratch.
How does this restorativejustice practice come into play?
Like?
What does it look like if achild is persistently
misbehaving?
What happens?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Okay.
So, first of all, persistentmisbehavior has various reasons.
So we always say that ifsomebody is persistently showing
the behavior that is deviatingfrom the norm, we need to ask
ourselves as teachers, where isthe need or where is the
strength?
So there must be one of two.
It's either the strength is notmet right let's say the student
(07:54):
is bored in class or there mustbe different reasons for this.
There can be a strength here orthere is a need the student
feels unsupported.
So we need to address one ofthe two.
If it's not the need of thestrengths, or if the misbehavior
is not happening in the school,like in the classroom
environment, but let's say, inthe break with another student
(08:14):
and there is a constant fight,right, then we need to again go
back to okay, how do we teachthis young adults if we're
talking about teenagers toactually reconcile their
differences?
So, practically, let me tellyou how it works in practice.
So restorative justice is builton four R's respect,
(08:35):
responsibility, repair andreintegration.
So of course we teach them torespect each other and we talk a
lot about it.
Of course we tell them that forevery disrespect becomes
responsibility that is causingeffect.
But the key for restorativejustice is the reparation, and
the reparation is basically thepunishment.
So there is no punishment perse, there is a reparation.
(08:56):
And let's say simply, if thestudent broke a table, it's very
easy, you repair a table, butif they if they broke
relationship, what do theyrepair?
That's where the restorativeconversations come in.
So I'll give you an example.
So let's talk about I.
I had a case last year with twogirls that were actually
(09:16):
troubling each other for thepast one and a half years and
that all started in primary.
Now they're're in secondary,it's year seven, it's September,
and it started again.
So myself and a head of heremet them and there was a whole
restorative conversation planthat was built on taking their
differences onto a third story.
(09:38):
So I'll give you an example ofwhat I did.
I said ladies, it looks likethere's a problem that both of
you are facing and that problemis your common misunderstanding.
Do you agree with that?
So you bring them to a commonproblem because both of them
don't like what's happening, andthen you ask each one of them
to describe what they're facingand how they're feeling.
(09:59):
And it's very interestingbecause when one of them was
describing and when she doesthis is how I feel the other one
was looking and almost insurprise and in disbelief
because she didn't think that'show she was feeling.
And each one was given a wordand then each one that was given
the chance to suggest thereparation and the future steps
(10:19):
and what they've agreed to eachother that the most repairing
thing for them would be to justavoid each other.
All right, and how to avoideach other.
They literally we were goingthrough examples.
So if you meet each other inthe corridor, how are you going
to avoid each other?
If somebody invites you to thesame party, how are you?
going to avoid each other and Iwas asking them this to answer
(10:40):
these questions and decidetogether.
So in the end they walked inand, though they went other
separate ways, they worked outthrough a solution together.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, I like that.
I was thinking how are theyavoiding each other in the same
school, like a separate entranceor like what was going on there
?
But I love the fact that theycame up with the solutions
themselves and, yeah, thank youso much.
That was a really good example.
I want to talk a little bitabout the well-being piece to
your role.
(11:09):
Well-being is such a how do Iput this without offending all
the well-being warriors?
It's such a hairy fairy conceptwhen it comes to schools,
because there's such amisunderstanding in the space as
to what schools can do to helpto increase well-being,
especially among staff.
Some think it's chocolates anddonuts, which I'm like you're
(11:31):
giving them sugar.
That is just not it.
Some think it's all theselittle notes in my cubbyhole
periphery.
What are your thoughts on whatdrives well-being in schools?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I'm actually with you on this.
I don't think that donut makesanybody feel better.
They just get some heartburnafter that and guilt feeling.
We need to go back to again thescience of well-being.
What really gives people thewell-being?
First of all, understandingyour meaning and purpose.
What are you here for?
What do you wake up everymorning for?
(12:04):
Why do you come to school?
When we do the training with theteachers, I ask them to think
through their life journey, getthe strengths from all the
crucibles they had on the way,like basically the moments that
made them stronger and thenwrite their mission statement
and then compare it to themission statement of Fortress
Education and say do they meet?
(12:27):
And if they meet, if you're inthe right place, you're in the
right place.
You just need to continueleaving your mission statement
inside our school and inside themission statement and remind
yourself every time about this.
Whenever you wake up and youdon't know why you need to go to
work, you remind yourself aboutyour mission statement.
So, mission and purpose.
Next, relationship how do wepromote relationship between
(12:49):
each other?
So the people in theirdepartment are they supporting
each other?
The line managers are theysupporting?
Do teachers know who to lean in, do they know who to go and
talk to when they need help,right?
Next accomplishment we don'thave to all become the best
teacher of the year in Dubai tofeel accomplished.
How do we make each other feelaccomplished, right?
(13:12):
How do we celebrate?
So those notes they can workwhen they actually are on point
right, so they are for something.
So you can create a gratitudewall, you can create a certain
mechanism where you know, likewhat we have in school, we have
like a gratitude service, if youfeel that somebody has done
something that you want tocelebrate, and you put it on
(13:32):
that survey and you actually orwe have a culture actually where
people by themselves decide topost a gratitude message to the
whole school, so I want to saythat today that person helped me
so much, blah, blah, blah.
And it happens in the cultureThen.
So engagement, how?
What is engagement actually?
So by you know, mihi chicks andmihi flow theory says that
(13:56):
engage.
People go into the engagementchannel, the flow channel, when
the challenge is a little bithigher than the skill, just a
little bit.
So if the challenge is so highthat people are very anxious,
but when the challenge is toolow, then they become bored.
So it's the same thing in theclassroom.
It's differentiation.
So how do we as leaders, youknow, if we talk about
(14:18):
innovative leaders, how do we asleaders understand?
How do we differentiate?
Who do we give more supportthan others?
And then we go to the last one,the positive emotions.
You know Barbara Fredricksontalks about broad and build.
So broaden your understandingof what is a positive emotion
and what kind of makes you feelgood, and then build the
frequency of it.
(14:38):
So maybe it's not about donuts,but it's about some kind of fun
.
So what I noticed is that whenin St Mark's school we started
switching on music on Fridaysafter the students like, while
the students were going home,people were dancing in the
corridors.
Small thing, but it builds thefrequency of your positive
emotions.
And then we started changingthe songs so that people would
(15:02):
be like, oh, what's the songtoday?
And then we asked people tosuggest their songs.
So small things can create amassive difference if we look at
the science of what makespeople happy, but it's
definitely not just Donald's.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and I also think an atmosphere of safety to
say what one thinks safety, toknow that they are being heard,
and also the respect of one'stime, where they know someone
will not infringe on theirpersonal time or space.
These things lead people tofeel well.
If I know that I will not bebombarded at 5pm on a Friday
(15:40):
with crazy emails from school, Iwill feel better.
That helps my well-being.
So things of that nature.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
You know, lisa, this is a very interesting topic for
me because we use MicrosoftTeams and what we have learned
that we have to put theresponsibility for not being
bombarded to the person whodoesn't want to be bombarded.
Because let me give you anexample there are some teachers
who have additionalresponsibilities in the school
(16:10):
or who have children andda-da-da-da-da and they prefer
actually to work at 8 o'clock inthe evening.
Right Now.
Microsoft Teams just recentlyhad a function where you can
delay the message.
Just recently, and email had itbefore.
So that was an etiquette, thatif you're sending an email,
choose the time when you want itto be delivered With the Teams
you can do it before.
So that was an etiquette, thatif you're sending an email,
choose the time when you want itto be delivered With the Teams.
(16:33):
You can do it now.
But before we used to say thatif you don't want to be
bombarded after 5 pm, microsoftTeams has a setting that says
after 5 pm, switch off thenotification.
But you as an individual, youswitch off notification because
it suits your work rules.
But I cannot prescribe therules of work to those people
(16:57):
who want to work after hoursbecause they feel less anxious
next morning when they actuallyopen their computer at eight
o'clock while they're drinkingnight cup.
Right, so that helps with.
So what I'm saying is it helpsto put the responsibility on
each individual for their ownwell-being rather than make it
everybody's responsibility.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yes, I like that, but also, I just think,
institutional parameters andexpectations, because I might
turn off my notifications and goin the next morning and someone
says to me in a stern voice didyou not see the email I sent to
you at 7.55 pm?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
You are absolutely right, Lisa.
So what we are doing is that wehave many years ago we said
that culture that don't expectto receive a reply after 5 pm
actually, after 4.30 forteachers, after 5 for leaders.
Don't expect to receive, atleast unless it's something
urgent.
And if it's something urgent,don't do it on Teams, do it on
WhatsApp.
(17:54):
That's our culture.
But if it's not urgent, you cansend it.
But you, if you receive it at 7pm, don't be offended that it
came to you at 7 pm becauseyou're not expected to check.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, ok, awesome.
I'm a very I'm sticklish forlittle things like that, because
when people talk to me aboutwellbeing, because I taught for
so long and I've worked in somany schools and I've led
schools, I know that the theoryof wellbeing and the practice
thereof are far apart in manycases.
(18:26):
So I'm very kind of sticklish.
I hope you understand.
Let's put your innovation haton now, katrina, and let's talk
leadership and innovation.
Innovation is very messy.
How do we maintain a stablelearning environment while still
looking to innovate and makethose changes that are needed,
especially when it comes tothings like education technology
(18:50):
or new methodologies?
How do we maintain stabilityand innovation that crazy
balance.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
It goes back to setting the stage for your ethos
again from the very beginning.
Hey, we're an innovative school, we're a learning school.
We learn and we get intolearning pit, and that's also
normal.
And we are going to step intothis vulnerability of sitting in
the pit and not knowing how todo it, and it will be messy, but
(19:18):
then we will prototype, we willideate, we will prototype, we
will fail and then we will comeup with the final version that
we may need to reiterate againafter some time, but it's all
normal.
So I guess normalizing thatinnovation is messy and it's
never ending, and we feel it nowvery much with AI.
(19:40):
The way we went around it isthat we took a lot of our
leaders from various phases anddepartments and even from head
office and we send them for avery long AI in-person training
and then after that we said, ok,now we tinker with this and we
tinker in our smaller groups andlet's see where we go with it,
and so we ended up with a prettygood structure.
(20:02):
After one year of tinkering andbeing in this mess of
innovation, we are now in avalidation state and then we
will reiterate how it works.
But the world is moving so fastand unfortunately, education is
always behind.
Teachers today know less aboutAI than the students.
We need to catch up if we wantto be relevant and if we really
(20:26):
want to prepare our students tosome degree, yeah, as much as we
try to be at the cutting edge,is moving faster than I think we
can.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I think, just because education has historically been
a little bit latent in how itresponds to change, we are going
to have to double down ourefforts, especially in this AI
age, to be able to be even onpar, let alone ahead, of our
students.
In your experience, though,what are some of the most
(20:55):
effective strategies leaders canadopt to empower their staff to
take ownership of their rolesin driving innovation in school?
It's a mouthful, but I want toknow how can leaders take that
empowerment to their staff toallow them to feel safe and to
(21:16):
take ownership of driving thatinnovation, because it can't go
anywhere unless the staff driveit.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I always say think about what is in it for them.
Will this innovation make theirwork faster, more efficient or
more clunky and slower?
If it's more clunky and slower,don't expect them to innovate
in this or use it.
They will just kill it, andthat's normal.
That's human nature.
So how do we make it?
(21:46):
How do we sell it to them sothat it is beneficial for them?
So either you remove somethingelse and say, okay, if you do
this kind of system, then youdon't need to do that kind of
system.
And even if, for some time, youare running two different
systems, it's fine.
And we did that many years agowhen I don't know if you're
aware about CenturyTech.
(22:07):
It was a very nice AI system.
So when we were testing it, wejust said to some teachers you
don't need to evaluate studentsbased on our normal system if
you use CenturyTech and you doyour evaluation there.
Right.
And then slowly we built ourevaluation differently.
But that is how we engage thefirst adopters and those who
(22:28):
were testing it and bringingtheir feedback to us.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Yeah, I think when we think about empowering our
staff as well, I often wonderhow much autonomy the staff have
on choosing their own learningopportunities, because a lot of
it tends to sometimes in someschools be very prescriptive.
You will take this course, youwill go to this event, rather
(22:51):
than the staff coming and going.
I would like to take this coursebecause it fits with my mission
and vision and who I am and mypurpose as an educator.
Or I'd like to attend thisconference because there are
these presenters and I wouldlove to hear their viewpoints on
X or Y.
And so I wonder, especially inyour schools, what opportunities
(23:13):
are there for staff to choosetheir own learning opportunities
?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Yeah, so in both St Mark School and Region
International School, we do both.
We of course prescribe certaintrainings that everybody needs
to be aware of, but there isalso an opportunity for internal
CPD, which is by choice, youknow, and we run parallel
streams and then we do sendpeople for the other training,
(23:36):
the outside training, which isagain by their choice.
They just need to.
It depends on where, but thereis an opportunity to choose.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, and what's the advantage of doing both?
What's the advantage of havingthat internal stuff and that
external stuff in yourestimation?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Every school, I'm sure, has its own way right, its
own way of learning andmanaging.
Learning and managing manythings.
For us, for example, it'spositive education, so we need
to update people in our ways.
Learning and managing manythings.
For us, for example, it'spositive education, so we need
to update people in our ways, sothey need to know how we do
(24:15):
things.
So it's in all thenon-negotiables.
And then, of course, everybodyis on a different path in terms
of a different stage of theirlearning.
So whatever makes sense forthem and whatever their interest
is also respected, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So we've talked innovation, we've talked
well-being, we've talkedleadership.
Let's talk about you for asecond.
What are you excited aboutright now in education?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Oh, I'm actually excited and scared at the same
time, because I wonder how ourworld is going to change in a
very short period of time.
What's going to happen in fiveyears Before I could at least
draw an outline?
Now I don't know, and what Iquestion myself as an educator,
(24:55):
what skills really matter inschool.
So I think I'm in a moreprivileged position here,
because for many years I've beena promoter of positive
education and I still think thatthis is one of the most
valuable skills that we canteach children how to take care
of their well-being and how tounderstand themselves as humans.
(25:16):
That is going to stay.
So the resilience, theadaptability, so all the
personal skills that we'reteaching in our schools, they
will stay even if everythingelse fails.
But what else?
How quick will the exam boardsrespond to the current situation
?
How will the universityadmission change?
So that is things that keep meup at night.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I don't want them to keep you up, I want to know it.
I hope they're not making youlack sleep.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
No, I tell you, lisa, I was last week, I was in
Harvard.
I was at Harvard doing theprogram in perils and promise of
technology, and the wholecourse was just about AI, and
what I understood in the end ofthe week is just one simple
thing Even the Harvardprofessors don't know what's
going to happen in five years,so we all can just put very fair
(26:07):
predictions.
So we just see how it unfolds.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Wow, what are you reading currently?
That's my last question.
I love to ask this questionbecause when I talk to smart
people, I want to know whatthey're reading.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
I'm one of those people that reads multiple books
at the same time based on mymood, and recently I'm actually
deep into podcasts.
I find them super interesting.
I just finished Elon Musk'sbiography the last one.
It's fascinating how one humancan bring so much innovation in
(26:40):
the world, fascinating andactually what it takes.
You know all the hard work and,yes, he's a Merrick, but wow,
what he created is incredible.
And the other book that I havefinished recently was Untethered
Soul by Michael Singer Awesome.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you for being on the podcast, katrina, thank
you.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Thank you so much.
It's been really wonderful totalk to you and thank you for
all your thought provokingquestions.
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
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