October 14, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, Nadine Powrie shares her journey from a French assistant to a leader in some of the UK's most challenging schools. Drawing on experiences from New Zealand and Australia, she discusses how research, collaboration, and continuous learning have shaped her approach to education and school inspections.
Mentorship played a crucial role in Nadine's development, especially her relationship with Derek Wise, CBE, which encouraged bold decision-making and effective communication. Now a thinking partner herself, Nadine shares practical strategies for maintaining integrity, handling difficult conversations, and balancing well-being while leading today's educational landscape.
Connect with Nadine at nadinepowrie.com or on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadine-powrie/
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Hosted by Leisa Grace Wilson
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace, and welcome back to
the Teach Middle East podcast,and welcome if this is your
first time listening to thepodcast.
It is today my pleasure tointroduce to you my friend,
nadine Porey, on the podcast.
But she's much more than justmy friend.
She is a worldwide educationleader, coach, consultant,
(00:38):
inspector you name it formerschool leader.
She wore, or wears that hat.
So today we're going to bechatting leadership on the
podcast.
We're going to be talking aboutsome of the big questions in
leadership.
So if you're a school leader oran aspiring school leader, pull
up a chair, get your coffee oryour tea and listen to this
(00:59):
episode.
Because here's a fact Nadinedoes this work globally and
we're having this work for freeon the podcast today, so do not
take it for granted.
Sit down, listen, learn andshare.
Welcome, nadine.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you very much for inviting me on your podcast,
lisa, and I'm glad that you'verecorded that beginning, because
I'm going to play it all thetime to make me feel really good
about myself.
So thank you you deserve it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You deserve all of it .
No word of a lie, nadine.
Tell me about little Nadine.
Where did you grow up?
What was life like for littleNadine?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
oh, little Nadine, I quite like that.
Actually, I grew up in France.
As you can hear, my Englishaccent, I've cracked it and this
has been a bit of an issue forme actually.
And yeah, I grew up in Franceand left France at about 21.
I did all my education inFrance my background for that is
French but came into the UK Iwas a French assistant in a
(01:59):
school in Warrington nearManchester and that was the
beginning of my life in the ukand started to work in the uk
and my first job in the uk wasat the university of newcastle
and that was a great start forme.
Co-wrote a book with who wasgoing to become my future
husband, book on marketingactually.
(02:20):
And yeah, I went from there.
Then went back to working in aschool, a very challenging
school I think.
At the time the result the GCSEresults, I think were 12
percent.
I think when you've worked in aschool like that, you learn a
tremendous amount and I think itcouldn't have been a better
start for me yes, challenging,but learned a great deal.
(02:43):
Then went to work for awonderful, wonderful school
called Cramlington At the timewas Cramlington High School, but
now Cramlington LearningVillage, and I understand that I
know, in fact, I know that someof my former colleagues now
work in Dubai, so yeah, and hadan amazing head called Derek
Wise.
In fact, I want to sharesomething because it's something
(03:03):
that I did when I became head.
We had a research group in theschool and I've always been very
academic.
I always like research, andDerek wanted us to look at best
practice in the world.
And I'm saying that becausewhen I was young, I loved
reading, I was very curious andI never lost that.
And Derek said to us you canput together suggestions, plan a
(03:25):
proposal on where you wouldlike to go around the world and
what you would like to look atand I was particularly
interested in gifted andtalented children and
inquiry-based learningcurriculum.
And I put a proposal together,thinking there is absolutely no
way that he's going to want tosay yes to that because it was
term time.
And then one morning he got meinto his office his hands in his
(03:47):
pocket.
He would always do that.
Actually, absolutely no waythat he's going to want to say
yes to that because it was termtime.
And then one morning he got meinto his office his hands in his
pocket.
He would always do thatactually?
And he said you'd better packup because you're off to New
Zealand and Australia to look atthose schools.
And I thought, oh my gosh, andthat really made me and shaped
who I became.
And later on, when I was a headteacher, I actually did the
same thing for my staff and Ioffered an opportunity for them
(04:09):
to go and see what was happeningin the world, in America
particularly.
So, yeah, and then I becamehead and fantastic experience
and loved every second of it.
And there is always a criticalmoment in life and my father
passed away and before he passedaway he said to me you're
working too much, you're workingtoo hard, and my children are
(04:32):
always the ones that I askquestions if I want to know the
truth.
So I asked them.
I said, do I look tired?
And in fact they were veryblunt with me and they said, yes
, you've aged 10 years.
And I thought, ok, maybe it'stime to do something.
And I've always dreamt ofhaving my own business.
And when I was the head atFermi Academy actually it's the
(04:53):
school I converted into anacademy the parents were always
saying that I was running theschool as if it was a business,
but actually, you know, as anacademy, it is a business and I
always loved thatentrepreneurial mindset and I
thought when thatentrepreneurial mindset and I
thought when, after my dadpassed away, I thought maybe
it's time for me to startsomething new.
Although I believe that in life,everything we do is a
(05:14):
continuity of events, I thinkwhen you look back at it, there
is a logic in it and I set up myown business and here I am
feeling very privileged to beinvited to work in schools as a
school improvement partner to dosome inspections, and I see
inspections as working with theschool.
You don't do it to them, you doit with them.
(05:34):
That's how I see inspectionsand just loving it, because
there are millions of teachersand head teachers in the world
who are doing a fab job and Ihope that with the work that I
do with them, I hope that I makea difference, which is
something that I've alwayswanted to do, even when I was
young.
So it's interesting at my age,because I am aging and I did a
(05:58):
post on LinkedIn on thatactually when you perhaps
reflect in a different way,because you become very aware of
mortality and the legacy thatyou want to leave and what's the
impact that I'm doing Becauseit sounds and look good to
travel the world, but actuallythere is a lot of work behind it
that people don't see, even inthe planning of it, and what's
(06:21):
the difference that I am makingto those people?
And I think that it's becomingclearer and clearer because I
like to be precise and accurateand there's that side of me.
I'm very clear about what I canbring to the table and if I
can't help, I'm also very clearand very confident to say I'm
not sure I can help you withthat, but I know a lot of people
(06:41):
who could.
So that's the little Nadine whohas become who I am and very,
very content, very happy.
And I also want to say that Ithink what drives me in life is
the fact that I'm a mother andfor me, being a mother has
changed everything in my lifeand has hugely impacted on how
I've led and who I've been, as aleader and even in my job right
(07:05):
now as a partner or consultant,whatever title.
I have having children, fourkids actually, who all went
through British systemuniversities, british
universities, doing differentjobs, now all in the world of
work, and also being agrandmother.
I have four grandchildren, twomore on the way, so by next
(07:25):
April I'll have sixgrandchildren.
So it's like a mini classroomalready in my house and I think
that has always kept me inperspective of the work that I
do.
We want to make the worldbetter for the children.
We want to help as much as wecan those schools, staff and
leaders and even the non-teacher.
I think it's really importantand the question I ask myself
(07:47):
and, like you know, people whoare listening will not be
surprised that I share that iswould I put my grandchildren now
in that school, in thatclassroom?
Before it used to be, when Iwasn't a grandmother, it used to
be would I put my children in?
But now my children, I shiftthem on the on the side, and now
it's.
Would I put my, mygrandchildren and?
But now my children, I shiftthem on the side and now it's.
Would I put my grandchildren?
(08:07):
And not so long ago I visited afew schools and I was like,
yeah, I would definitely putSienna in here.
I'd put Isaac in here fordifferent reasons because every
grandchild is very different.
Gosh, I've gone away from yourquestion because I'm loving it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I'm listening and I'm loving it.
You mentioned something earlierabout the person that your
mentor, the gentleman whoactually said pack up, you're
going to New Zealand, you'regoing to Australia, you're going
to look at these systems.
What role do you thinkmentorship play in developing
future leaders?
Because he saw something in you.
There must be that person whohelps you.
(08:45):
What's that role?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It's interesting to talk about mentorship and to
talk about coaching right,because it's two different
things.
And I think for me he playedthe role of being my thinking
partner.
His name was Derek Wise, obe,and he was more of a thinking
partner because of the way thathe was making me and others
think, always forward, thinkingthe what's next, and I think
(09:11):
that he developed a thinkingenvironment in the school
through the research group where, yes, we were discussing
research but at the same time,there was a lot of mentoring
going through that, because wewere having some discussions and
it was really encouraging mebecoming almost an independent
learner and almost autonomouswith my own thoughts on, for
(09:36):
example, the work on gifted andtalented that I was doing in the
school.
And it was also really alistener.
I would give some ideas and hewas also really a listener.
I would give some ideas.
And I remember when I came backfrom New Zealand I then did a
presentation to SLT and he saidto me he said if it had been the
World Cup, france would havewon.
You know that was the kind offeedback that he was giving me.
(09:59):
When I left to go to my deputyheadship, he called me.
You know the speech right.
When people leave and they makea speech about you.
I actually think that this is agreat time when you leave a
school, because people saythings about you that they never
tell you, whether they'rementoring you or coaching you,
they don't tell you those things.
And in his speech he called meMrs Powerhouse and I thought, oh
my gosh, mrs Powerhouse, reallyMe.
(10:20):
I was quite surprised actually,but as a mentor, I think he
shaped, he transformed mythinking, probably made me more
confident in speaking up,because at the time I was
probably more on the shy side ofthings.
I would become.
I think he got me out of mylittle shell to make me blossom,
(10:42):
and I think it's not everybodyhas the talent to do that the
guy was.
He wasn't liked by everybody,he had his own way of leading,
but with me we just clicked andit was absolutely fine and you
know huge respect for what hedid for me to make me grow, to
(11:07):
make me develop and to encourageme to take risks Going to New
Zealand for four weeks duringterm time.
Well, I had to leave the coverwork because I was still
teaching, even as an assistanthead, and I knew that it wasn't
too jolly, I had to bring homesome research, what I had seen
there to make somerecommendations on.
(11:28):
Okay, so how can we apply that?
What can we tweak?
Do we need this?
Do we need that To shift andtransform further the school?
So it was empowering me to makesome decisions, because you
have to filter the new thingsthat you see, because you can't
talk about everything, tocontinue to make a difference.
I think for me it's more thanbeing a mentor or a coach I
(11:52):
actually don't really like theword coaching because now
everybody's a coach in the world.
I think I prefer to be athinking partner, and here I'm
thinking about Nancy Klein.
I've done her training andthat's why, as well, on LinkedIn
, I've changed my title to beinga partner, because I also think
that by challenging him at timein the kind of reverse
mentoring, I think I've made himthink differently and I think
(12:15):
that being a thinking partnercan go both ways and forever
grateful to what he gave me andall my life I have tried to role
model what I have learned fromhim to others and I would hope
that I've done it.
I know I've done it to the bestI could and I hope that people
(12:35):
would recognize that, certainly,and the feedback that I've
received.
I think that's what people say.
But you try to give it all right.
When you're with people, youtry to give your best and I
think that at times people arenot necessarily ready to receive
everything that you give,because sometimes I want to give
a lot and I know, given mypersonality and given my
(12:58):
enthusiasm and my passion, Iknow that at times it can be
quite overwhelming for people.
I know that at times it can bequite overwhelming for people.
So it's about learning to lookfor the signs that.
Okay, I'll just slow down mymentoring here or my thinking
partnership, I'll just pausehere and invite them to silence
or reflection, thinking time.
(13:20):
I think that he's taught me todo that as well to scan, because
when you're passionate, youwant to share with people, you
want to talk, you want to give.
But I think it's reallyimportant to understand that not
everybody receives and canreceive the information in the
same way, and to learn tounderstand and capture the signs
(13:40):
that they're giving you whenclearly it's kind of enough.
I now need to go away and think.
You see, I'm doing it right nowbecause you're asking me a
question and I've been speakingfor about five minutes, but I
think it's important tounderstand who you're talking to
and to respect how do they wantthis conversation to, to go and
to give them that time toprocess what you're saying.
(14:03):
And I think he gave me that andthe other thing that he gave me,
which at the time I wasn'taware actually, you know, we had
to do a research proposal.
You have to write well, okay,because you have to write the
rationale.
Why on earth would a schoolwant to send one of his
assistant head on the other sideof the world to go and look at
(14:24):
gifted and talented andinquiry-based curriculum?
Why can't you do it nearer theUK?
Because actually it might bemore cost-effective.
It's school money, time havingcover for my classes and making
sure that I bring value to money.
So, writing a proposal withpersuasive arguments that
actually, yeah, it's costeffective, it's value for money,
(14:46):
I think that's a skill and atthe time I didn't know that he
was giving me an opportunity toactually start thinking the way
you organize your thinking andhe made me think about clearly,
about how you present anargument.
You're almost like you almostbecome a lawyer, right, you
defend something that youbelieve in and that you're going
to want to go and explore, andthe power of the writing skills
(15:10):
as well, because in this world,particularly in the world of
artificial intelligence and allof that right, it's very easy to
ask ChatGPT, right, chatgpt,write me this and write me that.
But actually it's made mereflect on the skills, the
writing skills that I had as anindividual and how do you use
that to influence people?
(15:30):
Because I think that there is aplace as well to, yes, speak to
people, but also how you write,how you present yourself in
writing and in speaking.
And I've carried that, becausenow I do actually keep growing
and I do some creative writingworkshops and writing skills
workshop, where I'm a student,right, I'm being taught, because
(15:51):
I think that it's important tostill draw on your talents and
on who you are to practice thoseskills.
I think because we type all thetime, it's not the same as
writing and I think it's reallynice to continue to write
because you can be quitecreative when you do that and
when you write it's differentthan when using a keyboard, and
he told me that as well, thatyou know at time it's great to
(16:14):
not be driven by what everybodyelse is doing AI, for example,
but to keep your own identity ofwhat you want to do, what you
are passionate about, whatyou're best at.
So, yeah, writing is somethingthat I've continued doing, the
way that I put ideas together,the why, always go back to your
(16:35):
why and be very clear about that, and it might be a draft, right
it might be.
This morning I was doing acoaching session actually with
somebody in Dubai a leader inDubai and we talked about when
do you have a final documentright?
When is it the final version?
Because I think we grow all thetime.
My mindset, my thinking is notthe same when I get up and when
(16:56):
I go to bed, because I've spokento many people during the day
and they have influenced the wayI have thoughts and they've
also given me ideas.
So I think we grow every dayand I think it's nice, it's
great to capture that and tocontinue to have your own
identity.
And, yeah, the simple fact ofholding a pen I think that I
(17:17):
will remember that from him.
I still have my Montblanc penthat I had at the school you
know, sometimes it's sentimentalvalue but actually the power of
writing and the power ofexplaining your why in writing,
your reasoning behind that andhow you construct.
That, I think, is a goodexercise to do.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I want to change gears.
You talked about writing andrecently you wrote on LinkedIn
about micromanagement and Ireally that post resonated a lot
with me and I think it mightresonate a lot with our school
leaders, and so I wanted to askyou, how do school leaders
recognize when they are crossingthat line and becoming
(18:00):
micromanagers?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
I think it depends the kind of leader that you are,
because if you areself-reflecting, you might find
yourself giving a lot ofinstructions.
So do this, do that?
Have you done asking a lot ofquestions, the kind of check-in?
When I was a head teacher, Ihad a coach, actually, and we
agreed that for a period of time, every night I would reflect on
(18:24):
the three best things that Iwas doing and one thing that I
need to improve on, and I thinkthat exercise has helped me
clearly reflect on yeah,sometime I was probably asking
more check-ins and that couldhave been a warning sign.
Am I micromanaging?
But I think I would reallyencourage people to do that
(18:45):
little exercise because it canbe a self-measure of actually
looking back at the five days.
I keep asking those questions.
Am I checking in on people?
Because I don't trust them, andI think another side is that
you end up very stressed andvery exhausted.
So if you are exhausted and ifyou are stressed, ask yourself
are you doing your job or areyou doing the job of other
people?
(19:05):
And do you lack energy becauseyou're doing too many check-ins
to people?
And is your team not tellingyou that you are micromanaging?
So what trust have youdeveloped with your team if they
are not telling you that youare micromanaging?
One of the things that I keeptalking about my headship, but
(19:25):
one of the things that I wasvery lucky when I became a head
I don't know if it's luck, but Ihad an amazing PA who then I
appointed to become an execassistant and I was asking her
some feedback Regularly.
I was asking her some feedback.
Do you think I'm too much thisor not enough that?
And she was very blunt with me.
(19:45):
Right, she was very honest andyou know, when you do something
wrong, be it micromanagement oranything else I think you do
need to have honest peoplearound you.
So I think one of the ways tocounteract the micromanagement
because if you are micromanagingpeople, you are absolutely
crushing innovation, you'recrushing creativity People will
(20:07):
go because you're not reallyempowering them.
But for somebody like me I mean, I'm quite a control freak.
So you could argue did youmicromanage at some point in
your career?
Yeah, probably I did.
Probably I did, and,interestingly, I probably
micromanage staff who are moreexperienced than younger staff,
staff who were more experiencedthan younger staff.
(20:30):
I remember appointing someentities as head of science and
head of English and then be moreon the back of certain middle
leaders.
I probably did that in mycareer.
I don't think I'd be surprisedto hear that nobody has ever
macro-managed their life,because you learn by doing
perhaps what you shouldn't bedoing.
And I think for me the way tostep back is to have the courage
(20:54):
to say to your team okay, hereis my vulnerability, here is
what I do too much of or notenough of.
Could you tell me when I'mdoing that, which is what I did
with my PA, actually?
And because I think that thoseare people who can tell you very
honestly what they think, howthey feel.
You need trust for that,obviously, but at some point you
(21:16):
do need to establish trust forpeople to give you someone
else's feedback, otherwisethey're never going to give you
that.
And I think that being open andhaving the courage to be open
and to accept I remember my PAtelling me well, the parents
think that you know, at the verybeginning of my headship, right
, you're very cold.
I remember at some point youdon't smile enough or you smile
too much, and I think you doneed to listen to the feedback.
(21:41):
You know we've gone a bit awayfrom the micromanagement.
But my point being that ifyou're asking people, then they
can give you feedback.
But even better if you areencouraging a culture where
people can give you feedbackwithout you asking, I think
that's even better.
We call that feed-forwards.
People feel free and safe togive you that powerful feedback
(22:03):
where they can say, yeah, you'recrossing a bit the red line
here.
We just need to point you backon the do not micromanage and
then that's okay.
I think it's easy maybe tomicromanage when you have very
high standards, very high KPIs.
You know there's the wholeworld on the back of you and you
think if I was doing thatmyself, it'd be quicker.
We've all gone through that.
But at the end of the day, wehave a duty to prepare the next
(22:29):
generation and to let them makemistakes and to let them learn.
Otherwise we're not doing thema service at all and we're not
preparing the generation offuture leaders.
And I think once you get that,then you can let go.
Learning to let go can be quitedifficult for some people.
I've had to learn to let go onsome things in my life and it's
fine, I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you because you were talking
about the fact that we all havemade mistakes as leaders.
If you've ever led anything,whether it's a school, a
business, an organization,whatever, we've all made
mistakes.
But then I wanted to find outfrom you sort of like how do you
(23:11):
maintain your integrity whileyou're navigating those
challenging dilemmas?
Because sometimes the mistakeswe make is not because we're
unethical, but we've genuinelymade mistakes.
But how do we navigate that?
How do we fess up to themistakes that we've made as
(23:33):
leaders?
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I think the culture for me comes into that Because
of my French background.
I studied philosophy at schooland I've always been interested
in philosophy and I still learnphilosophy.
I'm a student, I take learnphilosophy.
I'm a student, I takephilosophy lessons.
I think I've always likedAristotle and who did a lot of
questioning on who do I want tobe.
(23:56):
Who do I want to be as a leaderwho has integrity?
Okay, that's a question in mylife that has come up a lot.
I've always loved the work thatKant did on the moral duty,
integrity and the moral duty.
So in school, the duty of careat what point do you cross the
red line?
And for me, to keep myintegrity, I had different
(24:20):
strategies.
So strategy number one,obviously understanding who I
was, who I am and my values andthe values of the school.
And it's better when they'realigned, because when they don't
align you've got a big problem,an internal turmoil really.
So it's better when they'realigned, but it's also having
the right people around you.
So I had a great share ofgovernors in both headships so I
(24:46):
drew on them when I had a moral, ethical issue.
I openly have conversation withthem and discuss that with them
.
But equally, I did a post on myhusband actually on LinkedIn,
got me so many views on that.
You know I call it the plus one, right?
The person who is next to youin your life and who shares with
(25:06):
you everything from morning toyou know, 24 hours a day.
You do talk to them about yourdeepest ethical, moral issues
and I think my husband deservesa medal actually on listening to
what could have been and whathas been at times, some moral
issues for me.
But equally, we've all got theclose friends right For me.
I have two close friends inFrance and we've been friends
(25:29):
since I was a little girl, right, they would know the why I'm
asking myself those questionsabout that integrity.
But also I think it's in schoolyou can also tap into HR.
I've talked to some absolutelyawesome HR director.
When you go to them and say,actually there is this issue
with the staff, what can we doto help?
But where is the boundary aswell, because you can't help
(25:51):
everybody forever.
There are things you can't do.
So we're tapping into HR,tapping into organizations that
you are affiliated with.
So for me, I've got a postgradin HR.
So CIPD is always something youknow.
I go into their forum and say,okay, has anybody got the same
problem as me?
And how did they tackle thatwith that integrity hat on right
(26:14):
and just tapping into?
I was a head of school in the UKso, for example, acas right,
it's a great organization toknow.
Is what I'm doing by the law?
Is it right or is it wrong?
And so I think it's knowingthat very close circuit of
people.
And what I'm trying to say isyou're not on your own.
(26:35):
There are people around youthat can give you the
opportunity, the knowledge, theencouragement as well to keep
that integrity where it shouldlie, so that you don't cross the
red line, because those peopleactually would tell you if you
cross the red line.
So I think it's important toask them and to say to them if
(26:56):
at any point you feel that inthe conversation it sounds like
I'm crossing that red line andI'm losing that moral integrity,
I need to know.
I've always said to my teams youneed to be impeccable, and one
of the best training that I didwith my senior team when I was a
head, I always wanted everyrecord to be done top 1%.
(27:17):
So everything we were recordingon the system about students or
whoever meeting with parents, Ialways wanted those to be very
precise, accurate, because weneed to be fair to people and
represent what was happening inthe conversation.
And I remember that at thebeginning I used to drive my SLT
completely nuts right, becausethey were like you know, it's
(27:40):
really difficult to uh, becauseI would send back to them and
say it's not enough, there,we're missing that and um, and
there was a point where Ithought, okay, clearly I need to
go in a different way to showthem about integrity and that
red line.
I took them with me to watch anemployment tribunal and to
observe the questions that wereasked right in the court
(28:03):
throughout the process.
And when we left they said tome now we understand, nadine,
why you are so much, you know,wanting us to do things in an
impeccable way.
And it's because of thatintegrity, because you know that
you've done your job well andyou know that you're in the
right and that you're not in thewrong.
(28:24):
And, yeah, I think that if youknow all of that, then I think
that you can.
And if you know the circuit ofpeople around you that you can
ask for and there are right Inevery school those people exist,
everybody has that, not just me.
I think that you can keep thatintegrity absolutely in touch,
(28:46):
like it's there, it's discipline, and you have to be rigorous as
well, because it's uh, you know, sometimes there is that little
voice in you as a leader.
I work with leaders who areangry at times because you know
what's happening in schools,right, and it's just no, you
cannot say that, no, you cannotbehave like that, right, it's?
How do you keep that the beingimpeccable, um, going, even if,
(29:08):
deep down, you think there iswhat I would like to tell you.
But no, you can't.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You have to do things the best you can, in the best
possible way by the law yes, Igotta ask you this because it's
something that I know thatyou've done a lot of work on
what, what strategies?
Maybe one strategy, twostrategy can you offer leaders
on how to handle difficultconversations?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, I'm excited.
How many hours do you have?
I need one or two strategies.
My first advice would be getthe fact right before you go
into a conversation with anybody, and note that I've removed the
word difficult, right, becausedifficult is an assumption.
(29:55):
I think people make themdifficult because they put the
word difficult in it.
At the end of the day, everyconversation has a cost a
financial cost, but alsopsychological cost at different
levels.
So get the fact right beforeyou go into a conversation with
anybody.
I think that would be my firstadvice with anybody.
(30:18):
I think that would be my firstadvice.
And my second advice would be tolisten to what people have to
say in that conversation andreally to process and to take
notes on what they are saying,because actually sometimes in
conversation we just want torespond.
You know, you say that, I saythat.
Then it becomes a tennis matchand as soon as we act like that,
we are antagonizing the otherparty and I think that's not the
(30:40):
right way to go.
I think that it is better tohave a conversation, to listen
to people and might say okay,I'm going to go away and I'm
going to think about all of that.
I might need to come back toyou if the issue can be resolved
during that conversation, tonot be afraid of pausing, asking
for a pause, to not be afraidof reconvening at a different
(31:01):
time Again to be able to makethe best decision.
So I'm not saying okay, I am notsaying that every conversation
needs to be reconvening theconversation.
I think that every conversationhas a beginning, a middle and
an end.
My third advice would be makesure that you know about that
timeline At what point does thatconversation become critical
(31:23):
and make sure that you end thatconversation well with the
person, because it's key to havea sequence in that conversation
so that people are clear aboutwhat you are expecting from them
following that conversation.
I've given you a lot of advicehere, more than one or two, I
realize that.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Does that help?
It does help.
It does help.
And I love the fact that yousay at the start get your facts
right.
Because sometimes, when we gointo these conversations be they
difficult or not, however youmight want to term them, that
really is dependent on thescenario you might find that the
facts that you think you haveare not the facts, and so when
(32:05):
you sit down with the otherparty, it becomes clear that
what you received from maybeyour SLT or other colleagues
were opinions.
So, before you sit down withsaid person, make sure you have
facts on the table, and I thinkthat is if you guys were
listening or watching thispodcast walk away with nothing
(32:28):
else from this.
Walk away with that.
Before you sit down to haveconversations as leaders, get
your facts right.
I love that.
I think that's going to be akey takeaway.
Probably we'll use that as aclip when we're promoting the
podcast.
Nadine, quick question again youtalk about the fact that when
you were a head, your kids toldyou you looked 10 years older in
(32:52):
that time.
Because of all the work Headteachers, school leaders,
principals they're underenormous stress.
There's a lot of variables, alot of asks for them.
How do they preserve themselves?
How do they ensure that theydon't age 10 years ahead of
their time?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What would you?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
tell them.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I mean.
First of all, I think thatwe've got to recognize the great
work that teachers andprincipals are doing around the
world.
I think it's easy to fall inthe trap to work 24 hours a day,
particularly when I meet somany passionate people who just
give it all and they don't lookat the time.
I guess what has helped me wasto have a coach, a mentor, a
(33:34):
partner to whom I could speak to.
I think that has helped metremendously because taking time
for yourself to take you out ofthe job and take time for
yourself to think about yourself, to reflect on yourself, and
often, if I'm in Dubai orwherever I am in the world, I
(33:54):
remember and I'm not going tosay whom, but I think that
person will recognize who theyare when I say that I remember
having a conversation, coaching,mentoring, guiding, advising,
partnering, whatever it is.
Having one of thoseconversations with a leader I
was working with two years agoin the office, with a leader I
was working with two years agoin the office.
(34:15):
And an office is like a boxright, and how on earth can you
get better psychologically, yourenergy, you know, getting your
energy back when you're just inyour office, even with nice
windows and nicely decorated.
And I said, shall we go on therunning pitch outside?
And we had that conversationwalking around where students
(34:39):
run in the fresh air, walkingside by side, and that was very
powerful.
Equally, I did that with aleader in the corporate world in
Paris where I said to thatperson we don't need to stay in
the building, we can go out ifyou want to, and I believe a lot
in the walking conversation.
(35:00):
You're side by side, so you'renot facing people, you're
scanning the horizon.
I think it's quite nice to beinspired.
Being outside is nice, freshair, and I think it's also about
understanding when you're atyour best.
So a leader who is tired youknow we all have a body clock
right.
I know I'm better in themorning, I know that at half
(35:21):
past three I dip, I know my bodyclock.
So knowing your body clock sothat you organize, if you can,
your agenda according to whatalso works for you.
I think sometimes as head ofprinciple, we forget ourselves
and we tend to put people firstand parents first and all
stakeholders.
But I think if you're not intop form at all level, I think
(35:44):
you won't make the best decisionand at times you may need to be
what people call a little bitselfish.
I don't think it's selfish.
I think you need to invest inyourself and you need to have
the courage to say okay, I'mgoing to be investing in myself
and that's my time.
I'm going to say something thatmight be controversial Okay, I
don't believe in the policy ofI've got an open door policy.
(36:10):
I don't believe in that.
I think that, yeah, at timeit's good to have an open door
and people know that you have anopen door at certain time, but
at other, I think that you, yeah, at time it's good to have an
open door and people know thatyou have an open door at a
certain time, but at other, Ithink that you do need to close
that door.
I'm also very aware that someprinciples they you know.
Visibility is important, so,yeah, I need to be out there, I
need to be seen Right, it'simportant that people see me and
(36:30):
I need to see the school.
Yeah, but I think that also,you're a leader, at time, you
also need to be back to talkingto the right people, so it's a
balance.
I often do an audit of the diaryof a leader, so we share screen
or I sit by them, we look atthe uh, at their diary and you
(36:52):
think when on earth do you havelunch?
When on earth do you have timeto go to you know wherever you
need to be?
And I think that we must neverforget ourselves.
When we are leader, we aregiving a lot.
I used to say to my staff attimes I feel I'm on blood
transfusion.
Right, I give right, there'snothing left in me, but we need
(37:15):
to replenish.
It's not because we are leaderthat we don't need to replenish.
We need to replenish.
We need to get that energy backin ourselves so that we can
give again out there and do thebest we can.
I think that's really important.
So be courageous to say no, noto a number of things that can't
happen.
And this is where delegationworks at its best.
(37:37):
Right, because in an idealworld and I know that it's
happening you've got manyschools with the right teams out
there and people are thirsty tolead and to do what you could
have done as a leader, butthey're very happy to take that
on.
And it's saying yes to that andsaying no to other things, to
look after yourself and to notlose yourself in what we think
(38:00):
is our passion, because actuallya passion can take you down,
can bring you down, becausethere's so much energy that we
have.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
No, I totally agree.
I totally agree.
The theme for the upcomingMiddle East School Leadership
Conference is leading forward,building a leadership legacy.
It came out of a conversationyou and I had over sushi in the
Fairmont in Abu Dhabi, and soI'm itching to ask you this
question In a hundred years,when the book of Nadine Pory is
(38:32):
written, what do you want yourlegacy to be?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I think there is what I want and there is what will
happen right, and there is whatNadine Pory is written.
What do you want your legacy tobe?
I think there is what I wantand there is what will happen
right, and there is what myhopes right.
I hope that I will have madepeople think in a different way.
I hope that I will havechallenged people enough to
disrupt their thinking.
Are you bold enough to do this?
I hope that I would have beenan architect where we have
(39:00):
co-constructed and where youcontinue to co-construct with
people.
You cannot do things on yourown right.
I hope that I would have been acatalyst and I hope that I
would have started planting theseeds.
That keeps growing.
And I've always used the analogyof a plane.
(39:21):
You know the we need to checkin and the right people need to
be in the right seat on theplane.
And that fantastic journey,that visionary.
Where do you take that plane?
What's your destination?
The journey is as important asthe destination and I hope that
I will have left that withpeople, that it's not just about
the destination, that it's alsoabout the journey.
(39:41):
So I'm very ambitious to thinkthat this will be my legacy, but
I just hope that it is.
And, by the way, I do want towrite a book.
I've got a few ideas of what itcould be on maybe a chapter on
different topics, but I do wantto write a book and I think one
of the questions that I reallywould want to leave people with
(40:01):
is you know, what opportunitiesare you creating for people to
touch base with the future?
Because we talk a lot about thepast.
I mean, today we've talkedabout the past, but it's also
about the future, and I thinksome people do it very well on
LinkedIn, talking about, yeah,the future, what will happen,
and not just dwelling on thepast.
It's a fine balance.
(40:22):
So the word balance is, I hope,will be part of my legacy Keep
looking ahead.
Yeah, it's a lot right.
I mean, no, keep looking ahead.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
No, listen, we all have to think about that, and I
think one of the things that Ireally loved from our
conversation then was when wetalked about how are we
preparing the next generation ofleaders, the next crop of
leaders?
So that is my final question onthe podcast to you is what can
(40:55):
us current leaders do to reallyprepare the next batch of
leaders?
They're going to replace us,but we should be courageous
enough to prepare them.
What should we do?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I think I've answered a little bit in that I think we
should be an architect, soco-create with them and let them
, you know, empower them andenable them.
I think that's really important.
But I think one of the thingsthat I would do if I was a
principal right now which issomething that I did myself is I
spent a week in America when Iwas ahead.
(41:27):
My daughter was doing aninternship at Cisco, silicon
Valley, and I spent a week inthe industry world looking at
how it was working for them, andI remember having a
conversation the industry world,looking at how it was working
for them and I remember having aconversation with one of the
top guys actually oncompetitions, right, how do you
deal with competitions and howdo you analyze your competitors
and it was one of theconversations not just focusing
(41:49):
on your own industry the worldof education.
Yeah, we're all educators, weall know each other.
I mean it's a small world in away, right, but looking at other
industries that are totallydifferent from you and actually
understanding, visiting,borrowing a day here, a day
there, a week there.
I would love to you know JeffBessus, I'd love to have a
(42:12):
conversation with him, I'd lovethat, to see what he does in his
meeting, with no PowerPointpresentation.
You read the document when youarrive in the meeting.
So just tapping into thosefamous people who have succeeded
, without necessarily havinglots of qualifications, and also
tapping into their brain.
So the answer is it's not justabout npqh and all of that.
(42:36):
Yeah, fine, okay, but it's alsoabout look bigger, think bigger
.
Look around the world, not justwhere you are geographically
right, but look around the world, different industries, and what
is it that you can learn fromthem that you could draw on to
(42:56):
in your leadership.
I think that's what I would do,but that's just me, yeah no
problem.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Where can people reach you, nadine?
Let's say a school wants totalk to you about becoming their
thinking partner, just to helpthem to unravel some of the
things, or they just want toconnect with you.
Where can people connect withyou?
Speaker 3 (43:15):
I'm on LinkedIn.
I publish on LinkedIn every day, so they can send me a message
on LinkedIn, or they can visitmy website NadineParrycom.
They can email me.
So it's Nparry atNadineParrycom.
Yeah, and when I'm in Dubai orBangkok or wherever we can go
for coffee.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, sounds great.
I'll put all those in the shownotes so that you can connect
with Nadine and learn more, butthank you for being on the
podcast, nadine.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, thank you to you, Lisa, for inviting me and
for making we went from oneconversation in Abu Dhabi
actually to being here today,and I just really would like to
thank you and for everythingthat you do actually in the
world of education.
I mean, every day you're outthere on LinkedIn, you know,
interviewing people, going intoschools and talking to a lot of
(44:06):
educators around the world.
I think you're doing a fab job,lisa.
Keep going.
We need you.
The world needs a Lisa.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Thank you, thank you so much, thank you guys, thank
you for listening.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
You are listening to the Teach Middle East podcast
connecting, developing andempowering educators.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey everyone, this is Lisa Grace, and welcome back to
the Teach Middle East podcast,and welcome if this is your
first time listening to thepodcast.
It is today my pleasure tointroduce to you my friend,
nadine Porey, on the podcast.
But she's much more than justmy friend.
She is a worldwide educationleader, coach, consultant,
(00:38):
inspector you name it formerschool leader.
She wore, or wears that hat.
So today we're going to bechatting leadership on the
podcast.
We're going to be talking aboutsome of the big questions in
leadership.
So if you're a school leader oran aspiring school leader, pull
up a chair, get your coffee oryour tea and listen to this
(00:59):
episode.
Because here's a fact Nadinedoes this work globally and
we're having this work for freeon the podcast today, so do not
take it for granted.
Sit down, listen, learn andshare.
Welcome, nadine.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Thank you very much for inviting me on your podcast,
lisa, and I'm glad that you'verecorded that beginning, because
I'm going to play it all thetime to make me feel really good
about myself.
So thank you you deserve it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You deserve all of it .
No word of a lie, nadine.
Tell me about little Nadine.
Where did you grow up?
What was life like for littleNadine?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
oh, little Nadine, I quite like that.
Actually, I grew up in France.
As you can hear, my Englishaccent, I've cracked it and this
has been a bit of an issue forme actually.
And yeah, I grew up in Franceand left France at about 21.
I did all my education inFrance my background for that is
French but came into the UK Iwas a French assistant in a
(01:59):
school in Warrington nearManchester and that was the
beginning of my life in the ukand started to work in the uk
and my first job in the uk wasat the university of newcastle
and that was a great start forme.
Co-wrote a book with who wasgoing to become my future
husband, book on marketingactually.
(02:20):
And yeah, I went from there.
Then went back to working in aschool, a very challenging
school I think.
At the time the result the GCSEresults, I think were 12
percent.
I think when you've worked in aschool like that, you learn a
tremendous amount and I think itcouldn't have been a better
start for me yes, challenging,but learned a great deal.
(02:43):
Then went to work for awonderful, wonderful school
called Cramlington At the timewas Cramlington High School, but
now Cramlington LearningVillage, and I understand that I
know, in fact, I know that someof my former colleagues now
work in Dubai, so yeah, and hadan amazing head called Derek
Wise.
In fact, I want to sharesomething because it's something
(03:03):
that I did when I became head.
We had a research group in theschool and I've always been very
academic.
I always like research, andDerek wanted us to look at best
practice in the world.
And I'm saying that becausewhen I was young, I loved
reading, I was very curious andI never lost that.
And Derek said to us you canput together suggestions, plan a
(03:25):
proposal on where you wouldlike to go around the world and
what you would like to look atand I was particularly
interested in gifted andtalented children and
inquiry-based learningcurriculum.
And I put a proposal together,thinking there is absolutely no
way that he's going to want tosay yes to that because it was
term time.
And then one morning he got meinto his office his hands in his
(03:47):
pocket.
He would always do that.
Actually, absolutely no waythat he's going to want to say
yes to that because it was termtime.
And then one morning he got meinto his office his hands in his
pocket.
He would always do thatactually?
And he said you'd better packup because you're off to New
Zealand and Australia to look atthose schools.
And I thought, oh my gosh, andthat really made me and shaped
who I became.
And later on, when I was a headteacher, I actually did the
same thing for my staff and Ioffered an opportunity for them
(04:09):
to go and see what was happeningin the world, in America
particularly.
So, yeah, and then I becamehead and fantastic experience
and loved every second of it.
And there is always a criticalmoment in life and my father
passed away and before he passedaway he said to me you're
working too much, you're workingtoo hard, and my children are
(04:32):
always the ones that I askquestions if I want to know the
truth.
So I asked them.
I said, do I look tired?
And in fact they were veryblunt with me and they said, yes
, you've aged 10 years.
And I thought, ok, maybe it'stime to do something.
And I've always dreamt ofhaving my own business.
And when I was the head atFermi Academy actually it's the
(04:53):
school I converted into anacademy the parents were always
saying that I was running theschool as if it was a business,
but actually, you know, as anacademy, it is a business and I
always loved thatentrepreneurial mindset and I
thought when thatentrepreneurial mindset and I
thought when, after my dadpassed away, I thought maybe
it's time for me to startsomething new.
Although I believe that in life,everything we do is a
(05:14):
continuity of events, I thinkwhen you look back at it, there
is a logic in it and I set up myown business and here I am
feeling very privileged to beinvited to work in schools as a
school improvement partner to dosome inspections, and I see
inspections as working with theschool.
You don't do it to them, you doit with them.
(05:34):
That's how I see inspectionsand just loving it, because
there are millions of teachersand head teachers in the world
who are doing a fab job and Ihope that with the work that I
do with them, I hope that I makea difference, which is
something that I've alwayswanted to do, even when I was
young.
So it's interesting at my age,because I am aging and I did a
(05:58):
post on LinkedIn on thatactually when you perhaps
reflect in a different way,because you become very aware of
mortality and the legacy thatyou want to leave and what's the
impact that I'm doing Becauseit sounds and look good to
travel the world, but actuallythere is a lot of work behind it
that people don't see, even inthe planning of it, and what's
(06:21):
the difference that I am makingto those people?
And I think that it's becomingclearer and clearer because I
like to be precise and accurateand there's that side of me.
I'm very clear about what I canbring to the table and if I
can't help, I'm also very clearand very confident to say I'm
not sure I can help you withthat, but I know a lot of people
(06:41):
who could.
So that's the little Nadine whohas become who I am and very,
very content, very happy.
And I also want to say that Ithink what drives me in life is
the fact that I'm a mother andfor me, being a mother has
changed everything in my lifeand has hugely impacted on how
I've led and who I've been, as aleader and even in my job right
(07:05):
now as a partner or consultant,whatever title.
I have having children, fourkids actually, who all went
through British systemuniversities, british
universities, doing differentjobs, now all in the world of
work, and also being agrandmother.
I have four grandchildren, twomore on the way, so by next
(07:25):
April I'll have sixgrandchildren.
So it's like a mini classroomalready in my house and I think
that has always kept me inperspective of the work that I
do.
We want to make the worldbetter for the children.
We want to help as much as wecan those schools, staff and
leaders and even the non-teacher.
I think it's really importantand the question I ask myself
(07:47):
and, like you know, people whoare listening will not be
surprised that I share that iswould I put my grandchildren now
in that school, in thatclassroom?
Before it used to be, when Iwasn't a grandmother, it used to
be would I put my children in?
But now my children, I shiftthem on the on the side, and now
it's.
Would I put my, mygrandchildren and?
But now my children, I shiftthem on the side and now it's.
Would I put my grandchildren?
(08:07):
And not so long ago I visited afew schools and I was like,
yeah, I would definitely putSienna in here.
I'd put Isaac in here fordifferent reasons because every
grandchild is very different.
Gosh, I've gone away from yourquestion because I'm loving it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I'm listening and I'm loving it.
You mentioned something earlierabout the person that your
mentor, the gentleman whoactually said pack up, you're
going to New Zealand, you'regoing to Australia, you're going
to look at these systems.
What role do you thinkmentorship play in developing
future leaders?
Because he saw something in you.
There must be that person whohelps you.
(08:45):
What's that role?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
It's interesting to talk about mentorship and to
talk about coaching right,because it's two different
things.
And I think for me he playedthe role of being my thinking
partner.
His name was Derek Wise, obe,and he was more of a thinking
partner because of the way thathe was making me and others
think, always forward, thinkingthe what's next, and I think
(09:11):
that he developed a thinkingenvironment in the school
through the research group where, yes, we were discussing
research but at the same time,there was a lot of mentoring
going through that, because wewere having some discussions and
it was really encouraging mebecoming almost an independent
learner and almost autonomouswith my own thoughts on, for
(09:36):
example, the work on gifted andtalented that I was doing in the
school.
And it was also really alistener.
I would give some ideas and hewas also really a listener.
I would give some ideas.
And I remember when I came backfrom New Zealand I then did a
presentation to SLT and he saidto me he said if it had been the
World Cup, france would havewon.
You know that was the kind offeedback that he was giving me.
(09:59):
When I left to go to my deputyheadship, he called me.
You know the speech right.
When people leave and they makea speech about you.
I actually think that this is agreat time when you leave a
school, because people saythings about you that they never
tell you, whether they'rementoring you or coaching you,
they don't tell you those things.
And in his speech he called meMrs Powerhouse and I thought, oh
my gosh, mrs Powerhouse, reallyMe.
(10:20):
I was quite surprised actually,but as a mentor, I think he
shaped, he transformed mythinking, probably made me more
confident in speaking up,because at the time I was
probably more on the shy side ofthings.
I would become.
I think he got me out of mylittle shell to make me blossom,
(10:42):
and I think it's not everybodyhas the talent to do that the
guy was.
He wasn't liked by everybody,he had his own way of leading,
but with me we just clicked andit was absolutely fine and you
know huge respect for what hedid for me to make me grow, to
(11:07):
make me develop and to encourageme to take risks Going to New
Zealand for four weeks duringterm time.
Well, I had to leave the coverwork because I was still
teaching, even as an assistanthead, and I knew that it wasn't
too jolly, I had to bring homesome research, what I had seen
there to make somerecommendations on.
(11:28):
Okay, so how can we apply that?
What can we tweak?
Do we need this?
Do we need that To shift andtransform further the school?
So it was empowering me to makesome decisions, because you
have to filter the new thingsthat you see, because you can't
talk about everything, tocontinue to make a difference.
I think for me it's more thanbeing a mentor or a coach I
(11:52):
actually don't really like theword coaching because now
everybody's a coach in the world.
I think I prefer to be athinking partner, and here I'm
thinking about Nancy Klein.
I've done her training andthat's why, as well, on LinkedIn
, I've changed my title to beinga partner, because I also think
that by challenging him at timein the kind of reverse
mentoring, I think I've made himthink differently and I think
(12:15):
that being a thinking partnercan go both ways and forever
grateful to what he gave me andall my life I have tried to role
model what I have learned fromhim to others and I would hope
that I've done it.
I know I've done it to the bestI could and I hope that people
(12:35):
would recognize that, certainly,and the feedback that I've
received.
I think that's what people say.
But you try to give it all right.
When you're with people, youtry to give your best and I
think that at times people arenot necessarily ready to receive
everything that you give,because sometimes I want to give
a lot and I know, given mypersonality and given my
(12:58):
enthusiasm and my passion, Iknow that at times it can be
quite overwhelming for people.
I know that at times it can bequite overwhelming for people.
So it's about learning to lookfor the signs that.
Okay, I'll just slow down mymentoring here or my thinking
partnership, I'll just pausehere and invite them to silence
or reflection, thinking time.
(13:20):
I think that he's taught me todo that as well to scan, because
when you're passionate, youwant to share with people, you
want to talk, you want to give.
But I think it's reallyimportant to understand that not
everybody receives and canreceive the information in the
same way, and to learn tounderstand and capture the signs
(13:40):
that they're giving you whenclearly it's kind of enough.
I now need to go away and think.
You see, I'm doing it right nowbecause you're asking me a
question and I've been speakingfor about five minutes, but I
think it's important tounderstand who you're talking to
and to respect how do they wantthis conversation to, to go and
to give them that time toprocess what you're saying.
(14:03):
And I think he gave me that andthe other thing that he gave me,
which at the time I wasn'taware actually, you know, we had
to do a research proposal.
You have to write well, okay,because you have to write the
rationale.
Why on earth would a schoolwant to send one of his
assistant head on the other sideof the world to go and look at
(14:24):
gifted and talented andinquiry-based curriculum?
Why can't you do it nearer theUK?
Because actually it might bemore cost-effective.
It's school money, time havingcover for my classes and making
sure that I bring value to money.
So, writing a proposal withpersuasive arguments that
actually, yeah, it's costeffective, it's value for money,
(14:46):
I think that's a skill and atthe time I didn't know that he
was giving me an opportunity toactually start thinking the way
you organize your thinking andhe made me think about clearly,
about how you present anargument.
You're almost like you almostbecome a lawyer, right, you
defend something that youbelieve in and that you're going
to want to go and explore, andthe power of the writing skills
(15:10):
as well, because in this world,particularly in the world of
artificial intelligence and allof that right, it's very easy to
ask ChatGPT, right, chatgpt,write me this and write me that.
But actually it's made mereflect on the skills, the
writing skills that I had as anindividual and how do you use
that to influence people?
(15:30):
Because I think that there is aplace as well to, yes, speak to
people, but also how you write,how you present yourself in
writing and in speaking.
And I've carried that, becausenow I do actually keep growing
and I do some creative writingworkshops and writing skills
workshop, where I'm a student,right, I'm being taught, because
(15:51):
I think that it's important tostill draw on your talents and
on who you are to practice thoseskills.
I think because we type all thetime, it's not the same as
writing and I think it's reallynice to continue to write
because you can be quitecreative when you do that and
when you write it's differentthan when using a keyboard, and
he told me that as well, thatyou know at time it's great to
(16:14):
not be driven by what everybodyelse is doing AI, for example,
but to keep your own identity ofwhat you want to do, what you
are passionate about, whatyou're best at.
So, yeah, writing is somethingthat I've continued doing, the
way that I put ideas together,the why, always go back to your
(16:35):
why and be very clear about that, and it might be a draft, right
it might be.
This morning I was doing acoaching session actually with
somebody in Dubai a leader inDubai and we talked about when
do you have a final documentright?
When is it the final version?
Because I think we grow all thetime.
My mindset, my thinking is notthe same when I get up and when
(16:56):
I go to bed, because I've spokento many people during the day
and they have influenced the wayI have thoughts and they've
also given me ideas.
So I think we grow every dayand I think it's nice, it's
great to capture that and tocontinue to have your own
identity.
And, yeah, the simple fact ofholding a pen I think that I
(17:17):
will remember that from him.
I still have my Montblanc penthat I had at the school you
know, sometimes it's sentimentalvalue but actually the power of
writing and the power ofexplaining your why in writing,
your reasoning behind that andhow you construct.
That, I think, is a goodexercise to do.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I want to change gears.
You talked about writing andrecently you wrote on LinkedIn
about micromanagement and Ireally that post resonated a lot
with me and I think it mightresonate a lot with our school
leaders, and so I wanted to askyou, how do school leaders
recognize when they are crossingthat line and becoming
(18:00):
micromanagers?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
I think it depends the kind of leader that you are,
because if you areself-reflecting, you might find
yourself giving a lot ofinstructions.
So do this, do that?
Have you done asking a lot ofquestions, the kind of check-in?
When I was a head teacher, Ihad a coach, actually, and we
agreed that for a period of time, every night I would reflect on
(18:24):
the three best things that Iwas doing and one thing that I
need to improve on, and I thinkthat exercise has helped me
clearly reflect on yeah,sometime I was probably asking
more check-ins and that couldhave been a warning sign.
Am I micromanaging?
But I think I would reallyencourage people to do that
(18:45):
little exercise because it canbe a self-measure of actually
looking back at the five days.
I keep asking those questions.
Am I checking in on people?
Because I don't trust them, andI think another side is that
you end up very stressed andvery exhausted.
So if you are exhausted and ifyou are stressed, ask yourself
are you doing your job or areyou doing the job of other
people?
(19:05):
And do you lack energy becauseyou're doing too many check-ins
to people?
And is your team not tellingyou that you are micromanaging?
So what trust have youdeveloped with your team if they
are not telling you that youare micromanaging?
One of the things that I keeptalking about my headship, but
(19:25):
one of the things that I wasvery lucky when I became a head
I don't know if it's luck, but Ihad an amazing PA who then I
appointed to become an execassistant and I was asking her
some feedback Regularly.
I was asking her some feedback.
Do you think I'm too much thisor not enough that?
And she was very blunt with me.
(19:45):
Right, she was very honest andyou know, when you do something
wrong, be it micromanagement oranything else I think you do
need to have honest peoplearound you.
So I think one of the ways tocounteract the micromanagement
because if you are micromanagingpeople, you are absolutely
crushing innovation, you'recrushing creativity People will
(20:07):
go because you're not reallyempowering them.
But for somebody like me I mean, I'm quite a control freak.
So you could argue did youmicromanage at some point in
your career?
Yeah, probably I did.
Probably I did, and,interestingly, I probably
micromanage staff who are moreexperienced than younger staff,
staff who were more experiencedthan younger staff.
(20:30):
I remember appointing someentities as head of science and
head of English and then be moreon the back of certain middle
leaders.
I probably did that in mycareer.
I don't think I'd be surprisedto hear that nobody has ever
macro-managed their life,because you learn by doing
perhaps what you shouldn't bedoing.
And I think for me the way tostep back is to have the courage
(20:54):
to say to your team okay, hereis my vulnerability, here is
what I do too much of or notenough of.
Could you tell me when I'mdoing that, which is what I did
with my PA, actually?
And because I think that thoseare people who can tell you very
honestly what they think, howthey feel.
You need trust for that,obviously, but at some point you
(21:16):
do need to establish trust forpeople to give you someone
else's feedback, otherwisethey're never going to give you
that.
And I think that being open andhaving the courage to be open
and to accept I remember my PAtelling me well, the parents
think that you know, at the verybeginning of my headship, right
, you're very cold.
I remember at some point youdon't smile enough or you smile
too much, and I think you doneed to listen to the feedback.
(21:41):
You know we've gone a bit awayfrom the micromanagement.
But my point being that ifyou're asking people, then they
can give you feedback.
But even better if you areencouraging a culture where
people can give you feedbackwithout you asking, I think
that's even better.
We call that feed-forwards.
People feel free and safe togive you that powerful feedback
(22:03):
where they can say, yeah, you'recrossing a bit the red line
here.
We just need to point you backon the do not micromanage and
then that's okay.
I think it's easy maybe tomicromanage when you have very
high standards, very high KPIs.
You know there's the wholeworld on the back of you and you
think if I was doing thatmyself, it'd be quicker.
We've all gone through that.
But at the end of the day, wehave a duty to prepare the next
(22:29):
generation and to let them makemistakes and to let them learn.
Otherwise we're not doing thema service at all and we're not
preparing the generation offuture leaders.
And I think once you get that,then you can let go.
Learning to let go can be quitedifficult for some people.
I've had to learn to let go onsome things in my life and it's
fine, I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, I wanted to ask you because you were talking
about the fact that we all havemade mistakes as leaders.
If you've ever led anything,whether it's a school, a
business, an organization,whatever, we've all made
mistakes.
But then I wanted to find outfrom you sort of like how do you
(23:11):
maintain your integrity whileyou're navigating those
challenging dilemmas?
Because sometimes the mistakeswe make is not because we're
unethical, but we've genuinelymade mistakes.
But how do we navigate that?
How do we fess up to themistakes that we've made as
(23:33):
leaders?
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I think the culture for me comes into that Because
of my French background.
I studied philosophy at schooland I've always been interested
in philosophy and I still learnphilosophy.
I'm a student, I take learnphilosophy.
I'm a student, I takephilosophy lessons.
I think I've always likedAristotle and who did a lot of
questioning on who do I want tobe.
(23:56):
Who do I want to be as a leaderwho has integrity?
Okay, that's a question in mylife that has come up a lot.
I've always loved the work thatKant did on the moral duty,
integrity and the moral duty.
So in school, the duty of careat what point do you cross the
red line?
And for me, to keep myintegrity, I had different
(24:20):
strategies.
So strategy number one,obviously understanding who I
was, who I am and my values andthe values of the school.
And it's better when they'realigned, because when they don't
align you've got a big problem,an internal turmoil really.
So it's better when they'realigned, but it's also having
the right people around you.
So I had a great share ofgovernors in both headships so I
(24:46):
drew on them when I had a moral, ethical issue.
I openly have conversation withthem and discuss that with them
.
But equally, I did a post on myhusband actually on LinkedIn,
got me so many views on that.
You know I call it the plus one, right?
The person who is next to youin your life and who shares with
(25:06):
you everything from morning toyou know, 24 hours a day.
You do talk to them about yourdeepest ethical, moral issues
and I think my husband deservesa medal actually on listening to
what could have been and whathas been at times, some moral
issues for me.
But equally, we've all got theclose friends right For me.
I have two close friends inFrance and we've been friends
(25:29):
since I was a little girl, right, they would know the why I'm
asking myself those questionsabout that integrity.
But also I think it's in schoolyou can also tap into HR.
I've talked to some absolutelyawesome HR director.
When you go to them and say,actually there is this issue
with the staff, what can we doto help?
But where is the boundary aswell, because you can't help
(25:51):
everybody forever.
There are things you can't do.
So we're tapping into HR,tapping into organizations that
you are affiliated with.
So for me, I've got a postgradin HR.
So CIPD is always something youknow.
I go into their forum and say,okay, has anybody got the same
problem as me?
And how did they tackle thatwith that integrity hat on right
(26:14):
and just tapping into?
I was a head of school in the UKso, for example, acas right,
it's a great organization toknow.
Is what I'm doing by the law?
Is it right or is it wrong?
And so I think it's knowingthat very close circuit of
people.
And what I'm trying to say isyou're not on your own.
(26:35):
There are people around youthat can give you the
opportunity, the knowledge, theencouragement as well to keep
that integrity where it shouldlie, so that you don't cross the
red line, because those peopleactually would tell you if you
cross the red line.
So I think it's important toask them and to say to them if
(26:56):
at any point you feel that inthe conversation it sounds like
I'm crossing that red line andI'm losing that moral integrity,
I need to know.
I've always said to my teams youneed to be impeccable, and one
of the best training that I didwith my senior team when I was a
head, I always wanted everyrecord to be done top 1%.
(27:17):
So everything we were recordingon the system about students or
whoever meeting with parents, Ialways wanted those to be very
precise, accurate, because weneed to be fair to people and
represent what was happening inthe conversation.
And I remember that at thebeginning I used to drive my SLT
completely nuts right, becausethey were like you know, it's
(27:40):
really difficult to uh, becauseI would send back to them and
say it's not enough, there,we're missing that and um, and
there was a point where Ithought, okay, clearly I need to
go in a different way to showthem about integrity and that
red line.
I took them with me to watch anemployment tribunal and to
observe the questions that wereasked right in the court
(28:03):
throughout the process.
And when we left they said tome now we understand, nadine,
why you are so much, you know,wanting us to do things in an
impeccable way.
And it's because of thatintegrity, because you know that
you've done your job well andyou know that you're in the
right and that you're not in thewrong.
(28:24):
And, yeah, I think that if youknow all of that, then I think
that you can.
And if you know the circuit ofpeople around you that you can
ask for and there are right Inevery school those people exist,
everybody has that, not just me.
I think that you can keep thatintegrity absolutely in touch,
(28:46):
like it's there, it's discipline, and you have to be rigorous as
well, because it's uh, you know, sometimes there is that little
voice in you as a leader.
I work with leaders who areangry at times because you know
what's happening in schools,right, and it's just no, you
cannot say that, no, you cannotbehave like that, right, it's?
How do you keep that the beingimpeccable, um, going, even if,
(29:08):
deep down, you think there iswhat I would like to tell you.
But no, you can't.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You have to do things the best you can, in the best
possible way by the law yes, Igotta ask you this because it's
something that I know thatyou've done a lot of work on
what, what strategies?
Maybe one strategy, twostrategy can you offer leaders
on how to handle difficultconversations?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, I'm excited.
How many hours do you have?
I need one or two strategies.
My first advice would be getthe fact right before you go
into a conversation with anybody, and note that I've removed the
word difficult, right, becausedifficult is an assumption.
(29:55):
I think people make themdifficult because they put the
word difficult in it.
At the end of the day, everyconversation has a cost a
financial cost, but alsopsychological cost at different
levels.
So get the fact right beforeyou go into a conversation with
anybody.
I think that would be my firstadvice with anybody.
(30:18):
I think that would be my firstadvice.
And my second advice would be tolisten to what people have to
say in that conversation andreally to process and to take
notes on what they are saying,because actually sometimes in
conversation we just want torespond.
You know, you say that, I saythat.
Then it becomes a tennis matchand as soon as we act like that,
we are antagonizing the otherparty and I think that's not the
(30:40):
right way to go.
I think that it is better tohave a conversation, to listen
to people and might say okay,I'm going to go away and I'm
going to think about all of that.
I might need to come back toyou if the issue can be resolved
during that conversation, tonot be afraid of pausing, asking
for a pause, to not be afraidof reconvening at a different
(31:01):
time Again to be able to makethe best decision.
So I'm not saying okay, I am notsaying that every conversation
needs to be reconvening theconversation.
I think that every conversationhas a beginning, a middle and
an end.
My third advice would be makesure that you know about that
timeline At what point does thatconversation become critical
(31:23):
and make sure that you end thatconversation well with the
person, because it's key to havea sequence in that conversation
so that people are clear aboutwhat you are expecting from them
following that conversation.
I've given you a lot of advicehere, more than one or two, I
realize that.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Does that help?
It does help.
It does help.
And I love the fact that yousay at the start get your facts
right.
Because sometimes, when we gointo these conversations be they
difficult or not, however youmight want to term them, that
really is dependent on thescenario you might find that the
facts that you think you haveare not the facts, and so when
(32:05):
you sit down with the otherparty, it becomes clear that
what you received from maybeyour SLT or other colleagues
were opinions.
So, before you sit down withsaid person, make sure you have
facts on the table, and I thinkthat is if you guys were
listening or watching thispodcast walk away with nothing
(32:28):
else from this.
Walk away with that.
Before you sit down to haveconversations as leaders, get
your facts right.
I love that.
I think that's going to be akey takeaway.
Probably we'll use that as aclip when we're promoting the
podcast.
Nadine, quick question again youtalk about the fact that when
you were a head, your kids toldyou you looked 10 years older in
(32:52):
that time.
Because of all the work Headteachers, school leaders,
principals they're underenormous stress.
There's a lot of variables, alot of asks for them.
How do they preserve themselves?
How do they ensure that theydon't age 10 years ahead of
their time?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What would you?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
tell them.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
I mean.
First of all, I think thatwe've got to recognize the great
work that teachers andprincipals are doing around the
world.
I think it's easy to fall inthe trap to work 24 hours a day,
particularly when I meet somany passionate people who just
give it all and they don't lookat the time.
I guess what has helped me wasto have a coach, a mentor, a
(33:34):
partner to whom I could speak to.
I think that has helped metremendously because taking time
for yourself to take you out ofthe job and take time for
yourself to think about yourself, to reflect on yourself, and
often, if I'm in Dubai orwherever I am in the world, I
(33:54):
remember and I'm not going tosay whom, but I think that
person will recognize who theyare when I say that I remember
having a conversation, coaching,mentoring, guiding, advising,
partnering, whatever it is.
Having one of thoseconversations with a leader I
was working with two years agoin the office, with a leader I
was working with two years agoin the office.
(34:15):
And an office is like a boxright, and how on earth can you
get better psychologically, yourenergy, you know, getting your
energy back when you're just inyour office, even with nice
windows and nicely decorated.
And I said, shall we go on therunning pitch outside?
And we had that conversationwalking around where students
(34:39):
run in the fresh air, walkingside by side, and that was very
powerful.
Equally, I did that with aleader in the corporate world in
Paris where I said to thatperson we don't need to stay in
the building, we can go out ifyou want to, and I believe a lot
in the walking conversation.
(35:00):
You're side by side, so you'renot facing people, you're
scanning the horizon.
I think it's quite nice to beinspired.
Being outside is nice, freshair, and I think it's also about
understanding when you're atyour best.
So a leader who is tired youknow we all have a body clock
right.
I know I'm better in themorning, I know that at half
(35:21):
past three I dip, I know my bodyclock.
So knowing your body clock sothat you organize, if you can,
your agenda according to whatalso works for you.
I think sometimes as head ofprinciple, we forget ourselves
and we tend to put people firstand parents first and all
stakeholders.
But I think if you're not intop form at all level, I think
(35:44):
you won't make the best decisionand at times you may need to be
what people call a little bitselfish.
I don't think it's selfish.
I think you need to invest inyourself and you need to have
the courage to say okay, I'mgoing to be investing in myself
and that's my time.
I'm going to say something thatmight be controversial Okay, I
don't believe in the policy ofI've got an open door policy.
(36:10):
I don't believe in that.
I think that, yeah, at timeit's good to have an open door
and people know that you have anopen door at certain time, but
at other, I think that you, yeah, at time it's good to have an
open door and people know thatyou have an open door at a
certain time, but at other, Ithink that you do need to close
that door.
I'm also very aware that someprinciples they you know.
Visibility is important, so,yeah, I need to be out there, I
need to be seen Right, it'simportant that people see me and
(36:30):
I need to see the school.
Yeah, but I think that also,you're a leader, at time, you
also need to be back to talkingto the right people, so it's a
balance.
I often do an audit of the diaryof a leader, so we share screen
or I sit by them, we look atthe uh, at their diary and you
(36:52):
think when on earth do you havelunch?
When on earth do you have timeto go to you know wherever you
need to be?
And I think that we must neverforget ourselves.
When we are leader, we aregiving a lot.
I used to say to my staff attimes I feel I'm on blood
transfusion.
Right, I give right, there'snothing left in me, but we need
(37:15):
to replenish.
It's not because we are leaderthat we don't need to replenish.
We need to replenish.
We need to get that energy backin ourselves so that we can
give again out there and do thebest we can.
I think that's really important.
So be courageous to say no, noto a number of things that can't
happen.
And this is where delegationworks at its best.
(37:37):
Right, because in an idealworld and I know that it's
happening you've got manyschools with the right teams out
there and people are thirsty tolead and to do what you could
have done as a leader, butthey're very happy to take that
on.
And it's saying yes to that andsaying no to other things, to
look after yourself and to notlose yourself in what we think
(38:00):
is our passion, because actuallya passion can take you down,
can bring you down, becausethere's so much energy that we
have.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
No, I totally agree.
I totally agree.
The theme for the upcomingMiddle East School Leadership
Conference is leading forward,building a leadership legacy.
It came out of a conversationyou and I had over sushi in the
Fairmont in Abu Dhabi, and soI'm itching to ask you this
question In a hundred years,when the book of Nadine Pory is
(38:32):
written, what do you want yourlegacy to be?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
I think there is what I want and there is what will
happen right, and there is whatNadine Pory is written.
What do you want your legacy tobe?
I think there is what I wantand there is what will happen
right, and there is what myhopes right.
I hope that I will have madepeople think in a different way.
I hope that I will havechallenged people enough to
disrupt their thinking.
Are you bold enough to do this?
I hope that I would have beenan architect where we have
(39:00):
co-constructed and where youcontinue to co-construct with
people.
You cannot do things on yourown right.
I hope that I would have been acatalyst and I hope that I
would have started planting theseeds.
That keeps growing.
And I've always used the analogyof a plane.
(39:21):
You know the we need to checkin and the right people need to
be in the right seat on theplane.
And that fantastic journey,that visionary.
Where do you take that plane?
What's your destination?
The journey is as important asthe destination and I hope that
I will have left that withpeople, that it's not just about
the destination, that it's alsoabout the journey.
(39:41):
So I'm very ambitious to thinkthat this will be my legacy, but
I just hope that it is.
And, by the way, I do want towrite a book.
I've got a few ideas of what itcould be on maybe a chapter on
different topics, but I do wantto write a book and I think one
of the questions that I reallywould want to leave people with
(40:01):
is you know, what opportunitiesare you creating for people to
touch base with the future?
Because we talk a lot about thepast.
I mean, today we've talkedabout the past, but it's also
about the future, and I thinksome people do it very well on
LinkedIn, talking about, yeah,the future, what will happen,
and not just dwelling on thepast.
It's a fine balance.
(40:22):
So the word balance is, I hope,will be part of my legacy Keep
looking ahead.
Yeah, it's a lot right.
I mean, no, keep looking ahead.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
No, listen, we all have to think about that, and I
think one of the things that Ireally loved from our
conversation then was when wetalked about how are we
preparing the next generation ofleaders, the next crop of
leaders?
So that is my final question onthe podcast to you is what can
(40:55):
us current leaders do to reallyprepare the next batch of
leaders?
They're going to replace us,but we should be courageous
enough to prepare them.
What should we do?
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I think I've answered a little bit in that I think we
should be an architect, soco-create with them and let them
, you know, empower them andenable them.
I think that's really important.
But I think one of the thingsthat I would do if I was a
principal right now which issomething that I did myself is I
spent a week in America when Iwas ahead.
(41:27):
My daughter was doing aninternship at Cisco, silicon
Valley, and I spent a week inthe industry world looking at
how it was working for them, andI remember having a
conversation the industry world,looking at how it was working
for them and I remember having aconversation with one of the
top guys actually oncompetitions, right, how do you
deal with competitions and howdo you analyze your competitors
and it was one of theconversations not just focusing
(41:49):
on your own industry the worldof education.
Yeah, we're all educators, weall know each other.
I mean it's a small world in away, right, but looking at other
industries that are totallydifferent from you and actually
understanding, visiting,borrowing a day here, a day
there, a week there.
I would love to you know JeffBessus, I'd love to have a
(42:12):
conversation with him, I'd lovethat, to see what he does in his
meeting, with no PowerPointpresentation.
You read the document when youarrive in the meeting.
So just tapping into thosefamous people who have succeeded
, without necessarily havinglots of qualifications, and also
tapping into their brain.
So the answer is it's not justabout npqh and all of that.
(42:36):
Yeah, fine, okay, but it's alsoabout look bigger, think bigger
.
Look around the world, not justwhere you are geographically
right, but look around the world, different industries, and what
is it that you can learn fromthem that you could draw on to
(42:56):
in your leadership.
I think that's what I would do,but that's just me, yeah no
problem.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Where can people reach you, nadine?
Let's say a school wants totalk to you about becoming their
thinking partner, just to helpthem to unravel some of the
things, or they just want toconnect with you.
Where can people connect withyou?
Speaker 3 (43:15):
I'm on LinkedIn.
I publish on LinkedIn every day, so they can send me a message
on LinkedIn, or they can visitmy website NadineParrycom.
They can email me.
So it's Nparry atNadineParrycom.
Yeah, and when I'm in Dubai orBangkok or wherever we can go
for coffee.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeah, sounds great.
I'll put all those in the shownotes so that you can connect
with Nadine and learn more, butthank you for being on the
podcast, nadine.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
Well, thank you to you, Lisa, for inviting me and
for making we went from oneconversation in Abu Dhabi
actually to being here today,and I just really would like to
thank you and for everythingthat you do actually in the
world of education.
I mean, every day you're outthere on LinkedIn, you know,
interviewing people, going intoschools and talking to a lot of
(44:06):
educators around the world.
I think you're doing a fab job,lisa.
Keep going.
We need you.
The world needs a Lisa.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Thank you, thank you so much, thank you guys, thank
you for listening.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Thank you for listening to the Teach Middle
East podcast.
Visit our websiteteachmiddleeastcom and follow us
on social media.
The links are in the show notes.
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