October 21, 2024 • 28 mins
In this podcast episode, we discuss competence. We know that children are inherently capable, so we discuss our role in championing students as sense makers. We are joined by Dr. Corey Drake who has some powerful reminders about the importance of recognizing and valuing diverse ways children demonstrate understanding, rather than just focusing on what they can't do. Our conversation underscores the need for educators to shift their mindset to believe in all students' competence and provide multiple avenues for them to showcase their learning.
This is Part 1 of a 2 part episode.
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Hyunwoo Kim from Pixabay
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Okay,
Introduction (00:01):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome toteach
wonder. Yes. Welcome to teachwonder, a podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neill and JulieCunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:24):
I have two brothers. And growing up, thanks
to a small, extended family onone side, grandparents who
hosted us for a few weeks, it'ssummertime, with a dismal
selection of movies and anabundance of freedom, I also
have three cousins who feel likesiblings, two sisters and a
brother, and now we're all inthis age range where we have
jobs, we have and we've lostrelationships. We have kids, we
(00:47):
have pets and bills, andparticularly my two cousins and
I each have a kid who are aboutthe same age. They're all born
within seven months of eachother, and as parenting goes,
we're just like everybody else.
We're trying our best, but we'rehitting all these milestones
together, and because we grew uptogether, and now we're watching
the growing up of our kidstogether, it has us all looking
at the past and talking about itas we try to make sense of the
(01:09):
present, and we're learning alot about how we experience the
same house and the samevacations, but it was so
different for each of us, andthe one thing that's been
standing out to me as we've hadthese conversations as how we
saw each other and how it reallymattered. You see, I was the
bookworm of the group. I wouldshow up with stacks of books for
a week at the cottage, and Iwould get lovingly teased by
(01:30):
everybody there, because we weresupposed to spend our time
outside, not reading. But Iwould bring my books anyway. My
cousin was also a prolificreader, but we didn't connect
over that until we were both incollege, because I found out
later, he would downplay hislove of books when we were
there, because it was my thing.
I would get asked about whatbooks I was reading all the
time. People would assume that Iwas going off to read whenever I
(01:53):
was had a chance by myself, butnone of that ever came up for
him.
Another example, I rememberfeeling so awkward in my own
skin, because I would watch howat ease my other cousin was in
hers. I just thought she was soconfident and so outgoing and so
gregarious, and that wasn't me,but now I know she had her own
comparisons ways that she bothfelt stuck and left wanting, and
(02:15):
we both saw each other as a goalwe couldn't attain in our own
ways. And it's funny, becausethe kids we're talking about are
so many versions of ourselvesago, but also they're not who do
I call for advice about money,about kids? Who do I call to ask
questions about school? Who do Iassume unload the answer when
I'm navigating a difficultsituation at work? Do I call my
(02:36):
cousin because they're the bestperson for that moment? Maybe,
and maybe it's also becausethat's the part they've played
in our family for so long thatit's become as good as true.
What advice Am I missing when Ilean into these patterns that
were established while we werestill losing our teeth and
blowing up birthday candles?
I've known my cousins for mywhole life, and I'm still
learning about the roles andthat we played as kids, and how
(02:59):
they last for each other and forourselves. Today, we're talking
about this topic. It's been atthe forefront a lot at the
conversations here in work andon teach wonder. We're talking
about the presumption ofcompetence, the presumption that
not only are kids capable ofmaking sense of the world, but
that they are actively doing itright in front of us, and that
(03:23):
sometimes we're getting in ourown way of noticing it, and that
matters. We've asked ourdelightful colleague, Corey
Drake back as a guest for thisconversation. I think we can
safely credit her both forgiving us the push to start this
podcast and to start havingthese conversations explicitly
and intentionally. So it'sreally special to bring her into
(03:44):
this conversation. Today, in ourepisode, we're going to discuss
what we mean by competence, whoassigns it, and why does it even
matter, and what does competencespecifically have to do with
agency. But before I start ourconversation, I want to be
really clear we're not callinginto question whether or not
kids can or cannot do somethingthat's not even on the table. We
(04:06):
know that they can. Ourdiscussion is about what we
choose to believe about kids andhow it impacts them and the
classroom and us really, becausewe can tell ourselves something
for such a long time that it canbecome true, and that's not
something to be taken lightly.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation today, and I know
you will too. Here's Corey,
Dr. Corey Drake (04:33):
if you all would start out by just talking
a little bit about thecompetence framing, and then we
could, like, jump in orsomething,
Ashley O'Neil (04:40):
part of students having agency is feeling like
they know what to do whenthey're given choices. Which
comes from feeling competent,right? And we know that students
are competent, but whether theyfeel that is not the same thing.
And that begins with howteachers talk to and have. Out
(05:00):
and what they believe aboutstudents. So to me, it's a big
part of agency, because ifstudents don't feel like they
can make the decision or havethe or do something when they're
given the choice, then it justbecomes this compounding effect
that teachers less likely togive them choice in the future
because they, quote, unquote,can't handle it. So that's,
(05:21):
that's where I come from.
Julie Cunningham (05:23):
I agree with what you said. And then I was
also thinking about this idea ofcompetence. So I always go back
to the I don't even know what Idid with the book, that book
about maker spaces, which is thefirst time I think I really
thought about student agency,especially student agency in a
makerspace, and I think that inI'm sure this is true in a
(05:47):
classroom as well, but maybe itlooks a little different in the
classroom, but getting studentsin the Makerspace or an informal
education setting to becompetent with their skills and
ideas in order to be willing toshare them with others, and not
because, that's not because weset them in a group for someone
(06:08):
to teach the other kids. I don'tmean like that, right, but I
mean like this, like I feelcompetent enough to run this
piece of equipment or to designthis piece of or. And again, I
guess that comes back down toAshley's definition of that
feeling of competence, but alsoso that it's not the person
(06:29):
that's facilitating the classwho is the only one who has
competence, but that competenceis valued, Right, owned and
valued throughout the class.
Dr. Corey Drake (06:41):
Yeah, that makes sense to me. It's
interesting, Ashley, as I waslistening to both of you talk,
but starting with you, theconnection to student agency and
student choice, because that'san iterative cycle, a
reinforcing cycle. So if Ibelieve you, if I the teacher,
(07:02):
believe you the student, arecompetent, and one way I
communicate that to you is byopening up a space where you
have agency and you have voiceand you have choice. I'm
immediately communicating to youthat I believe you are competent
because I am allowing you tohave this voice and this choice,
and I believe you can directyour learning, and I believe you
(07:24):
can do things, and I believe youcan build on what you already
know to create new knowledge. Sowhen we think about like, what
is competence and who needs tosee it and feel it, it's it is
this iterative thing where, if Ibelieve you have competence, and
I set you up to exercise thatcompetence and to exercise your
(07:45):
agency that's communicating toyou my belief in your
competence, which then, now as astudent, I think, Oh, the
teacher thinks I can do this. Iguess I can, or let me try it,
or maybe I can. And then I tryit, and then I see what I can
do, right? And then those thosepieces reinforce. So I think the
other piece that's reallyimportant about competence is in
(08:08):
assigning competence is it's notjust about the student, right?
Sometimes we say, Oh, we canfind strengths in all students.
We can find all studentsbrilliance, and that's
absolutely true. But oftentimeswe leave the content when we do
that, and we're like, oh, youknow, how are you competent? How
are you brilliant? How are youstrong in math class? Well, you
(08:31):
listen really well to others,which is, like, super important.
But unless I'm redefiningmathematics learning and
teaching and said talking abouthow listening is a strength that
contributes to my learning. I'malmost saying you're not
actually competent in math, butyou're really good at listening,
(08:51):
right? So it has to be these,like two things together, where
I'm seeing and assigning andhelping you see your competence
in ways that are directlyrelated to what does it mean to
do math and learn math and begood at math? And so, like, I
think those are two importantpieces of it, that connection to
agency. But also, it's not justabout how you think about
(09:12):
students, but it's how you thinkabout content, and what it means
to learn content and do thatcontent
Ashley O'Neil (09:18):
totally it's like the there's the bucket that we
have. We have the content bucketand the content skill of that,
and then we have, like, thesocial nicety, or the make
school easy for everyone else,bucket, right? Like, if a good
listener can pass out papersreally well, can walk down the
hallway on their own. And like,like you said, those are
important skills, but that thatdoes not contribute to them
(09:39):
feeling competent in that class,in math, in ELA, in science, and
whatever it is. And in fact, alot of times kids read, I think
they read through those codedlanguage just like we would if
we were in some sort of adultpottery class. And I kept being
told how helpful I was, like Iwould get the impression that
I'm not so great at the potteryday. Kids get those and they
(10:02):
understand those unsaid thingsreally well.
I'm pulling part of ourconversation out to save for
later. So now I have to jumpback in and give a little
(10:23):
context. When we talk aboutcompetence, we're saying that
all kids are capable, and we'resaying that all kids are capable
of doing content, and that canbring up some difficult
realizations. So let's startwith an example of us as adults.
If I had $1 for every time Iheard an adult in the makerspace
when confronted with a drawingtask, say, Well, I'm not good at
(10:44):
art. I would have a lot ofdollars. And the thing about
that statement, I'm bad at art,is that it's meant to lower all
of our expectations about thatperson prior to them even
trying, but it actually is doinga whole lot of other things too.
It's telling me that maybe youdidn't get a robust art program
in school, so you didn't get thechance to practice art. It tells
(11:05):
me that maybe you didn't likethe feeling of clay as it dried
in your hands, so you learned todread all of art in general. So
you were pretty disengagedduring that class, and you
didn't get a chance to practice.
Maybe you like to be outside andplay games, so you didn't sit
down with a pencil and paperoften, so you didn't get a
chance to practice. Maybe yourfamily didn't have a lot of art
supplies sitting around for youto experiment with, so you
didn't get a chance to practice.
(11:27):
And maybe some or all of thesethings have led to this moment
when you the adult, are asked todraw a dolphin on a piece of
paper in our MakerSpace, and youfeel like the time when it was
socially acceptable to practicedrawing a dolphin is long past,
so now you're here and yourstudent is looking at you, and
you're supposed to draw thisdolphin, and you feel like you
have to admit that your drawingskills may not match the drawing
(11:49):
skills that everybody else hasdecided would be acceptable for
you to display in this moment,even though nobody has
articulated what those are, andit's not easy to do something in
front of people when that's thecase, but none of these things
are actually related to yourmechanical ability to draw in
any way, shape or form. It's allabout the history the time
(12:11):
you've had to practice, the gapyou're feeling between your
skill set and what would beexpected of you, and the truth
about why adults are pausingwhen we ask them to do art.
Yeah, it's more complicated thanthe can and the can't. It's the
same with kids. It does have alot however, to do with the
definition that this person hasaround good and bad art, and it
has a whole lot to do abouttheir prior experiences with art
(12:33):
as well. You
Dr. Corey Drake (12:55):
I think that if we do want to jump to equity for
a minute, right, I think one ofthe challenges and opportunities
when we think about competenceis exactly this right to both
think about and support teachersand support students in
recognizing the many differentways in which competence is
(13:17):
demonstrated and communicatedand expressed. And so it's not
just about finding the thingsthat you are competent at, but
like, what does it mean tonotice those as a teacher? What
does it mean to make thosevisible? What does it mean to
highlight those? And if we aresticking with, like, the narrow
set of competencies that havetended to be valued in
(13:39):
mathematics classes, right? Thatyou are fast, that you are
quiet, do you raise your hand togive an answer that you don't
ask questions, that you knowthose kinds of things, if we
think about that, that you'rereally good at, like abstract
compute, computation and workwith numerals versus a visual
strengths or spatial strengths.
Okay,
Ashley O'Neil (14:00):
so do you remember our bad at art?
Example, I think about theadults who've come in here and
told me that they're bad at art,and I know for a fact that some
of them have beautiful gardens,they have built sturdy shelves
or chairs, and they sing in thecar on the ride home. They have
a knack for picking the perfectpaint color for their kitchen,
or they have this way of stylingoutfits that are unexpected and
(14:23):
just like work, they've recentlyacted in a local play, or they
teach dance class on theweekends, or they've cliched
their favorite superhero forevery single cousin in their
family for Christmas. That isall very unrelated to the
drawing of dolphins, but it suresounds like art to me. Do
Dr. Corey Drake (14:40):
so if we don't expand what counts as competency
in a math class or science classor an English class, and the
ways in which competency can beexpressed, right, it's not
always expressed in writing, ona written text. Test, right? But
(15:01):
what does it mean to speakconfidently? How do you use
gestures? How do you use models?
How do you ask questions in waysthat demonstrate competency? And
where can we find competency? Ithink that is closely tied to
questions of equity and closelytied to being able to recognize
competence in somebody whodoesn't think, act, speak like I
(15:25):
do. What does it mean to seecompetency in them versus
someone who you know, it is verysimilar to me in a lot of ways.
That's a more challenging task,
Ashley O'Neil (15:38):
for sure. I think it also just gets back to that
like, Oh, really, it's not basicmeaning, like easy, but basic
meaning foundational. There issomething that happens in your
brain when you decide to believethat all the students in your
class are sense makers and arecompetent and capable and and I
(16:03):
think about, I hear I hearmyself, so I'm not I'm in the
group. I'm not saying otherpeople and not me. But when
people say like, well, I knowwhat they mean, or like you,
when you see that a teacher isgiving students lots of leeway
time to explain their thinking,because they know that they get
it, they just it's they aretrying to communicate it. Hate
it still, but I would thinkabout the students where I'd
(16:24):
say, Well, I know what theymeant here, and I know what they
meant here, but then what aboutthe students that you didn't say
that about, right? And so whenyou decide to feel that way and
to just champion all of yourstudents that way, it really
changes and challenges how youthink, because now the impetus
is on you to be the detectiveand to challenge yourself to
(16:47):
think differently, to catch upwith where the students are,
rather than saying, I'm thefixed point. Come and come and
meet me up here and all theother kids that make sense to me
right away, which is a bigchange.
Dr. Corey Drake (16:59):
I think that is, I think that is like the
central shift right from i asteacher, am listening to you, or
looking at your work, or seeingwhat you're doing, and just
seeing, does it match mine ornot? Does your answer match my
answer or not? Does your way ofexplaining it match mine or not?
And that's like, in many ways, asimpler task, but it runs
(17:23):
completely counter to thisassumption that all students are
sense makers. Students arealways making sense. Humans are
always making sense, and my jobis not to see if your way of
making sense matches mine, butlike you say, to be that
detective, to have that stanceof curiosity, to say, like, can
I understand how you are makingsense of this? Because if I can
(17:47):
understand that, then I cansupport you in continuing to
build your understanding. Butuntil I can understand how you
are making sense, I can't dothat and that it that is the
fundamental shift from, are youmaking sense the way I am to, I
know you're making sense. I justneed to figure out how so I can
(18:09):
help you build on that.
Ashley O'Neil (18:11):
And I know it sounds so basic and so like, is
that really necessary? And Itruly think it is, but in my
brain, I really work onpracticing saying those things,
either out loud or in my headout loud, you know what I mean?
Like just walking through that,just like people say, you know,
mantras in the morning, or thattype of thing, and that's really
powerful for them and changestheir day. Articulating that to
(18:34):
yourself repeatedly, like thischild is coming from a
perspective that is valued andmake sense to them and matters,
it's my job to figure out whatthat is, rather than getting
them in my lane over here sayingthat regularly makes a huge
difference. And so oftentimes Isee people or it can be easy to
(18:55):
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we knowthat, yep. But then, like,
that's as far as it goes. Like,we all disagree, and then we
move on. But are we actuallypracticing that out loud and in
our heads? And that gets alittle at this question of,
like, what strategies do we useto promote competence? Because I
think it starts internally andthen moves outward. It's one of
(19:15):
those things where you can'tbulletin board your way to a
solution here, like it has tostart inside. So what? When you
think about it, what are some ofthe some of the strategies that
you think about when it comes topromoting competence?
Dr. Corey Drake (19:27):
Also, I think you're exactly right. I do think
it starts internally withteachers and recognizing that
every child, every human, ismaking sense and is competent,
and our job is to figure outhow, figure out what things mean
to them, and like I say, helpthem build on that. Because if
(19:48):
you go in with the other stance,which is our traditional stance,
of, does your sense making matchmine or not? Let's say we do
that, and let's say it doesn't,then what do I do? Right? Well,
then I. Try to tell you againhow I'm making sense to see if
you can match it, to see ifLillian doll would say, to see
if you can mimic it. But at thatpoint you have no opportunities
(20:11):
left for sense making, right?
I've cut off your youropportunities for sense making.
So I do think it is justreminding ourselves of that
constantly. But it's alsoshifting our language right?
It's shifting our language from,you know, of course, from like,
this is right or this is wrong,or here's what you missed, or
here's what you haven't doneyet, to what do you what do you
see that the child can do? Whatare they doing? What can you
(20:34):
build on? What do they know?
What are they able to do? Right?
You know, you all have heard mesay many, many times. I may have
said it on this podcast before,in fact, that you can't learn by
building on things you don'tknow. Learning happens by
building on and connecting tothings you do know and things
you can do already. And sothat's another piece I remind
(20:58):
myself of constantly. It doesnot help me as a teacher. It
does not help my student as alearner. For me to spend all my
time looking at what they don'tknow or what they didn't get
that won't get me anywhere, thatwon't get the student anywhere.
Ultimately, what I need tofigure out is, what do they
understand, and then how do webuild from there? And that's so
(21:18):
critically important. But Ithink the reason you and I and
everyone who made the shift hasto keep making the shift is that
our system pushes against it inso many ways. Right? Our
assessment systems, ourcurriculum systems, our special
education systems, like all ofour systems, still are grounded
(21:39):
in figuring out what studentscan't do and figuring out what
students don't know, versusfocusing on competence and what
students do know. And so asindividuals, though, we're
trying to change systems, we'retrying to push against systems,
but it is having that constantreminder to yourself that when I
(22:02):
look at a piece of student work,when I sit down with a child and
talk to them, what I want toknow is, what do you understand?
How are you making sense of theworld? What experiences are you
bringing to this? What questionsare you asking? And then I can
help you figure out how to buildon those and build new
understandings based on what youalready know and can do.
Unknown (22:26):
So I want to just go backwards for a second. Just I
want to make sure that ourlisteners are with us, and that
when we talk about likeClassroom Strategies, that we're
also talking about ways that wecan change ourselves and our
thinking, but also potentiallyways in which this might play
out as a classroom instructor.
So if I go back to the questionof who assigns competence, I
(22:50):
just want to make sure thatwe're we're all on the same
page, so we're saying that it'snot the teacher up in front of
the classroom that's assigningthe competence. It's the student
who's deciding how they're goingto get there. That's the agency
to gain the competence, todemonstrate their competence for
the teacher, I think it goeswhatever way makes sense to
(23:14):
them. No, I
Ashley O'Neil (23:16):
think it goes one step further to just say, like
everyone is competent, that isjust a blanket fact, and it's
our job as educators to buy intothat fact, right, and to and to
perpetuate and reinforce thatfact out there.
Unknown (23:34):
But if we're asking them to demonstrate a piece of
content back as competence,right? Like, if we're saying
like, you need to show me thatyou can multiply single numbers
or whatever, right? That's thethat's the competency piece. So
we're assuming that all of ourstudents are competent and able
(23:55):
to do that. But at some level,they have to demonstrate in some
way their sense making for that,right,
Dr. Corey Drake (24:06):
yes, but I would say, if I was in a
classroom and I thought astudent had not yet demonstrated
what they understood or whatthey could Do in relation to
that, that as the educator thatjust means I have more work to
do to open up thoseopportunities for students to
(24:29):
demonstrate their competence. Somaybe I'm not asking the right
questions, maybe I'm not openingup the space enough or
communicating enough that Ivalue lots of different ways of
making sense, so they'rereluctant to share how they're
making sense, right? So evenwhen a student is not yet
demonstrating their competencewith a particular piece of
(24:50):
content, it still does not meanthat they're not competent. It
means that I have yet to uncoverthat competence and connect to
it and build on it.
Julie Cunningham (24:59):
so that. Was the second part of my question.
I was yes. So then the strategyin the classroom becomes
offering students a number ofdifferent opportunities to
demonstrate that they've madesense of the multiplication or
whatever it is, whatever theskill or piece of content. So,
(25:21):
so if we're talking aboutstrategies for classroom
teachers, first a mindset, anindividual mindset, right, that
everyone in their classroom iscompetent, and reminding
themselves, that's what I'mhearing both of you talk about,
but then additionally, makingsure that there's multiple
avenues and multiple ways inwhich a student can demonstrate
(25:46):
to you that they've made senseof whatever it is you've asked
them,
Dr. Corey Drake (25:51):
yes, and I was multiple ways of making sense,
and then multiple and alsomultiple ways of demonstrating
or communicating that they'vemade sense and how they've made
sense so but yeah, absolutely, Ithink that's the heart of it.
Because I could, as a teacher,say, I believe all of you can do
this. I believe you're all sensemakers, and then I could give
you one way that's the right wayto solve this problem and one
(26:13):
way to explain it to me. Or Icould even open up the classroom
to multiple students explaininghow they solved it. But you
know, when Ashley solves it,it's not really the way I'm
looking for so I'm like, Uh huh,good. Julie solves it, and
that's the way I'm looking forit. So now let's really dig into
that, and let's highlight thatright? Again, I'm not com, I'm
(26:34):
not communicating then that Ivalue each of your competence in
the same way. So it is openingup those opportunities and
communicating through youractions that you really do value
and really are curious about theways each of your students is
making sense of that content you
Julie Cunningham (27:08):
This likely will not surprise you, but we
have more to say on this topic.
So much more, in fact, that wesplit this episode up into two
parts. We will be bringing youthe second portion of this
conversation with Corey soon. Inthe meantime, here's a quick
recap of this conversation asthere's a lot here to engage
with and think about competenceas we're talking about it is the
(27:29):
capacity and potential inside ofa person. People and kids are
people have the potential to doso many things. We know that
kids are innately curious andare actively making sense of the
world around them. When studentsare supported by the adults,
they are more willing to try newthings and test their thinking.
We see this in the makerspaceevery time we hold a program
(27:51):
where there are open endedproblem solving opportunities,
ie all of our programs. A coupleexamples come to mind, however,
such as invention convention,when kids identify a need, do
some research on the productswhich exist to solve the need
and then prototype their ownsolution. Or in the makerspace,
when kids engage with new tools,whether they are traditional
(28:13):
tools or technological tools,they need scaffolding and
supports to be successful. Andeven very young kids are finally
if we think back to Episode Oneon agency, one way in which we
can promote agency with ourstudents is to give them choice.
I want to end with a quote thatI heard recently, so let's keep
in mind as we continue thisconversation that we can change
(28:35):
how we get there if we haveagency, we.
Okay,
Introduction (00:01):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome toteach
wonder. Yes. Welcome to teachwonder, a podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neill and JulieCunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:24):
I have two brothers. And growing up, thanks
to a small, extended family onone side, grandparents who
hosted us for a few weeks, it'ssummertime, with a dismal
selection of movies and anabundance of freedom, I also
have three cousins who feel likesiblings, two sisters and a
brother, and now we're all inthis age range where we have
jobs, we have and we've lostrelationships. We have kids, we
(00:47):
have pets and bills, andparticularly my two cousins and
I each have a kid who are aboutthe same age. They're all born
within seven months of eachother, and as parenting goes,
we're just like everybody else.
We're trying our best, but we'rehitting all these milestones
together, and because we grew uptogether, and now we're watching
the growing up of our kidstogether, it has us all looking
at the past and talking about itas we try to make sense of the
(01:09):
present, and we're learning alot about how we experience the
same house and the samevacations, but it was so
different for each of us, andthe one thing that's been
standing out to me as we've hadthese conversations as how we
saw each other and how it reallymattered. You see, I was the
bookworm of the group. I wouldshow up with stacks of books for
a week at the cottage, and Iwould get lovingly teased by
(01:30):
everybody there, because we weresupposed to spend our time
outside, not reading. But Iwould bring my books anyway. My
cousin was also a prolificreader, but we didn't connect
over that until we were both incollege, because I found out
later, he would downplay hislove of books when we were
there, because it was my thing.
I would get asked about whatbooks I was reading all the
time. People would assume that Iwas going off to read whenever I
(01:53):
was had a chance by myself, butnone of that ever came up for
him.
Another example, I rememberfeeling so awkward in my own
skin, because I would watch howat ease my other cousin was in
hers. I just thought she was soconfident and so outgoing and so
gregarious, and that wasn't me,but now I know she had her own
comparisons ways that she bothfelt stuck and left wanting, and
(02:15):
we both saw each other as a goalwe couldn't attain in our own
ways. And it's funny, becausethe kids we're talking about are
so many versions of ourselvesago, but also they're not who do
I call for advice about money,about kids? Who do I call to ask
questions about school? Who do Iassume unload the answer when
I'm navigating a difficultsituation at work? Do I call my
(02:36):
cousin because they're the bestperson for that moment? Maybe,
and maybe it's also becausethat's the part they've played
in our family for so long thatit's become as good as true.
What advice Am I missing when Ilean into these patterns that
were established while we werestill losing our teeth and
blowing up birthday candles?
I've known my cousins for mywhole life, and I'm still
learning about the roles andthat we played as kids, and how
(02:59):
they last for each other and forourselves. Today, we're talking
about this topic. It's been atthe forefront a lot at the
conversations here in work andon teach wonder. We're talking
about the presumption ofcompetence, the presumption that
not only are kids capable ofmaking sense of the world, but
that they are actively doing itright in front of us, and that
(03:23):
sometimes we're getting in ourown way of noticing it, and that
matters. We've asked ourdelightful colleague, Corey
Drake back as a guest for thisconversation. I think we can
safely credit her both forgiving us the push to start this
podcast and to start havingthese conversations explicitly
and intentionally. So it'sreally special to bring her into
(03:44):
this conversation. Today, in ourepisode, we're going to discuss
what we mean by competence, whoassigns it, and why does it even
matter, and what does competencespecifically have to do with
agency. But before I start ourconversation, I want to be
really clear we're not callinginto question whether or not
kids can or cannot do somethingthat's not even on the table. We
(04:06):
know that they can. Ourdiscussion is about what we
choose to believe about kids andhow it impacts them and the
classroom and us really, becausewe can tell ourselves something
for such a long time that it canbecome true, and that's not
something to be taken lightly.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation today, and I know
you will too. Here's Corey,
Dr. Corey Drake (04:33):
if you all would start out by just talking
a little bit about thecompetence framing, and then we
could, like, jump in orsomething,
Ashley O'Neil (04:40):
part of students having agency is feeling like
they know what to do whenthey're given choices. Which
comes from feeling competent,right? And we know that students
are competent, but whether theyfeel that is not the same thing.
And that begins with howteachers talk to and have. Out
(05:00):
and what they believe aboutstudents. So to me, it's a big
part of agency, because ifstudents don't feel like they
can make the decision or havethe or do something when they're
given the choice, then it justbecomes this compounding effect
that teachers less likely togive them choice in the future
because they, quote, unquote,can't handle it. So that's,
(05:21):
that's where I come from.
Julie Cunningham (05:23):
I agree with what you said. And then I was
also thinking about this idea ofcompetence. So I always go back
to the I don't even know what Idid with the book, that book
about maker spaces, which is thefirst time I think I really
thought about student agency,especially student agency in a
makerspace, and I think that inI'm sure this is true in a
(05:47):
classroom as well, but maybe itlooks a little different in the
classroom, but getting studentsin the Makerspace or an informal
education setting to becompetent with their skills and
ideas in order to be willing toshare them with others, and not
because, that's not because weset them in a group for someone
(06:08):
to teach the other kids. I don'tmean like that, right, but I
mean like this, like I feelcompetent enough to run this
piece of equipment or to designthis piece of or. And again, I
guess that comes back down toAshley's definition of that
feeling of competence, but alsoso that it's not the person
(06:29):
that's facilitating the classwho is the only one who has
competence, but that competenceis valued, Right, owned and
valued throughout the class.
Dr. Corey Drake (06:41):
Yeah, that makes sense to me. It's
interesting, Ashley, as I waslistening to both of you talk,
but starting with you, theconnection to student agency and
student choice, because that'san iterative cycle, a
reinforcing cycle. So if Ibelieve you, if I the teacher,
(07:02):
believe you the student, arecompetent, and one way I
communicate that to you is byopening up a space where you
have agency and you have voiceand you have choice. I'm
immediately communicating to youthat I believe you are competent
because I am allowing you tohave this voice and this choice,
and I believe you can directyour learning, and I believe you
(07:24):
can do things, and I believe youcan build on what you already
know to create new knowledge. Sowhen we think about like, what
is competence and who needs tosee it and feel it, it's it is
this iterative thing where, if Ibelieve you have competence, and
I set you up to exercise thatcompetence and to exercise your
(07:45):
agency that's communicating toyou my belief in your
competence, which then, now as astudent, I think, Oh, the
teacher thinks I can do this. Iguess I can, or let me try it,
or maybe I can. And then I tryit, and then I see what I can
do, right? And then those thosepieces reinforce. So I think the
other piece that's reallyimportant about competence is in
(08:08):
assigning competence is it's notjust about the student, right?
Sometimes we say, Oh, we canfind strengths in all students.
We can find all studentsbrilliance, and that's
absolutely true. But oftentimeswe leave the content when we do
that, and we're like, oh, youknow, how are you competent? How
are you brilliant? How are youstrong in math class? Well, you
(08:31):
listen really well to others,which is, like, super important.
But unless I'm redefiningmathematics learning and
teaching and said talking abouthow listening is a strength that
contributes to my learning. I'malmost saying you're not
actually competent in math, butyou're really good at listening,
(08:51):
right? So it has to be these,like two things together, where
I'm seeing and assigning andhelping you see your competence
in ways that are directlyrelated to what does it mean to
do math and learn math and begood at math? And so, like, I
think those are two importantpieces of it, that connection to
agency. But also, it's not justabout how you think about
(09:12):
students, but it's how you thinkabout content, and what it means
to learn content and do thatcontent
Ashley O'Neil (09:18):
totally it's like the there's the bucket that we
have. We have the content bucketand the content skill of that,
and then we have, like, thesocial nicety, or the make
school easy for everyone else,bucket, right? Like, if a good
listener can pass out papersreally well, can walk down the
hallway on their own. And like,like you said, those are
important skills, but that thatdoes not contribute to them
(09:39):
feeling competent in that class,in math, in ELA, in science, and
whatever it is. And in fact, alot of times kids read, I think
they read through those codedlanguage just like we would if
we were in some sort of adultpottery class. And I kept being
told how helpful I was, like Iwould get the impression that
I'm not so great at the potteryday. Kids get those and they
(10:02):
understand those unsaid thingsreally well.
I'm pulling part of ourconversation out to save for
later. So now I have to jumpback in and give a little
(10:23):
context. When we talk aboutcompetence, we're saying that
all kids are capable, and we'resaying that all kids are capable
of doing content, and that canbring up some difficult
realizations. So let's startwith an example of us as adults.
If I had $1 for every time Iheard an adult in the makerspace
when confronted with a drawingtask, say, Well, I'm not good at
(10:44):
art. I would have a lot ofdollars. And the thing about
that statement, I'm bad at art,is that it's meant to lower all
of our expectations about thatperson prior to them even
trying, but it actually is doinga whole lot of other things too.
It's telling me that maybe youdidn't get a robust art program
in school, so you didn't get thechance to practice art. It tells
(11:05):
me that maybe you didn't likethe feeling of clay as it dried
in your hands, so you learned todread all of art in general. So
you were pretty disengagedduring that class, and you
didn't get a chance to practice.
Maybe you like to be outside andplay games, so you didn't sit
down with a pencil and paperoften, so you didn't get a
chance to practice. Maybe yourfamily didn't have a lot of art
supplies sitting around for youto experiment with, so you
didn't get a chance to practice.
(11:27):
And maybe some or all of thesethings have led to this moment
when you the adult, are asked todraw a dolphin on a piece of
paper in our MakerSpace, and youfeel like the time when it was
socially acceptable to practicedrawing a dolphin is long past,
so now you're here and yourstudent is looking at you, and
you're supposed to draw thisdolphin, and you feel like you
have to admit that your drawingskills may not match the drawing
(11:49):
skills that everybody else hasdecided would be acceptable for
you to display in this moment,even though nobody has
articulated what those are, andit's not easy to do something in
front of people when that's thecase, but none of these things
are actually related to yourmechanical ability to draw in
any way, shape or form. It's allabout the history the time
(12:11):
you've had to practice, the gapyou're feeling between your
skill set and what would beexpected of you, and the truth
about why adults are pausingwhen we ask them to do art.
Yeah, it's more complicated thanthe can and the can't. It's the
same with kids. It does have alot however, to do with the
definition that this person hasaround good and bad art, and it
has a whole lot to do abouttheir prior experiences with art
(12:33):
as well. You
Dr. Corey Drake (12:55):
I think that if we do want to jump to equity for
a minute, right, I think one ofthe challenges and opportunities
when we think about competenceis exactly this right to both
think about and support teachersand support students in
recognizing the many differentways in which competence is
(13:17):
demonstrated and communicatedand expressed. And so it's not
just about finding the thingsthat you are competent at, but
like, what does it mean tonotice those as a teacher? What
does it mean to make thosevisible? What does it mean to
highlight those? And if we aresticking with, like, the narrow
set of competencies that havetended to be valued in
(13:39):
mathematics classes, right? Thatyou are fast, that you are
quiet, do you raise your hand togive an answer that you don't
ask questions, that you knowthose kinds of things, if we
think about that, that you'rereally good at, like abstract
compute, computation and workwith numerals versus a visual
strengths or spatial strengths.
Okay,
Ashley O'Neil (14:00):
so do you remember our bad at art?
Example, I think about theadults who've come in here and
told me that they're bad at art,and I know for a fact that some
of them have beautiful gardens,they have built sturdy shelves
or chairs, and they sing in thecar on the ride home. They have
a knack for picking the perfectpaint color for their kitchen,
or they have this way of stylingoutfits that are unexpected and
(14:23):
just like work, they've recentlyacted in a local play, or they
teach dance class on theweekends, or they've cliched
their favorite superhero forevery single cousin in their
family for Christmas. That isall very unrelated to the
drawing of dolphins, but it suresounds like art to me. Do
Dr. Corey Drake (14:40):
so if we don't expand what counts as competency
in a math class or science classor an English class, and the
ways in which competency can beexpressed, right, it's not
always expressed in writing, ona written text. Test, right? But
(15:01):
what does it mean to speakconfidently? How do you use
gestures? How do you use models?
How do you ask questions in waysthat demonstrate competency? And
where can we find competency? Ithink that is closely tied to
questions of equity and closelytied to being able to recognize
competence in somebody whodoesn't think, act, speak like I
(15:25):
do. What does it mean to seecompetency in them versus
someone who you know, it is verysimilar to me in a lot of ways.
That's a more challenging task,
Ashley O'Neil (15:38):
for sure. I think it also just gets back to that
like, Oh, really, it's not basicmeaning, like easy, but basic
meaning foundational. There issomething that happens in your
brain when you decide to believethat all the students in your
class are sense makers and arecompetent and capable and and I
(16:03):
think about, I hear I hearmyself, so I'm not I'm in the
group. I'm not saying otherpeople and not me. But when
people say like, well, I knowwhat they mean, or like you,
when you see that a teacher isgiving students lots of leeway
time to explain their thinking,because they know that they get
it, they just it's they aretrying to communicate it. Hate
it still, but I would thinkabout the students where I'd
(16:24):
say, Well, I know what theymeant here, and I know what they
meant here, but then what aboutthe students that you didn't say
that about, right? And so whenyou decide to feel that way and
to just champion all of yourstudents that way, it really
changes and challenges how youthink, because now the impetus
is on you to be the detectiveand to challenge yourself to
(16:47):
think differently, to catch upwith where the students are,
rather than saying, I'm thefixed point. Come and come and
meet me up here and all theother kids that make sense to me
right away, which is a bigchange.
Dr. Corey Drake (16:59):
I think that is, I think that is like the
central shift right from i asteacher, am listening to you, or
looking at your work, or seeingwhat you're doing, and just
seeing, does it match mine ornot? Does your answer match my
answer or not? Does your way ofexplaining it match mine or not?
And that's like, in many ways, asimpler task, but it runs
(17:23):
completely counter to thisassumption that all students are
sense makers. Students arealways making sense. Humans are
always making sense, and my jobis not to see if your way of
making sense matches mine, butlike you say, to be that
detective, to have that stanceof curiosity, to say, like, can
I understand how you are makingsense of this? Because if I can
(17:47):
understand that, then I cansupport you in continuing to
build your understanding. Butuntil I can understand how you
are making sense, I can't dothat and that it that is the
fundamental shift from, are youmaking sense the way I am to, I
know you're making sense. I justneed to figure out how so I can
(18:09):
help you build on that.
Ashley O'Neil (18:11):
And I know it sounds so basic and so like, is
that really necessary? And Itruly think it is, but in my
brain, I really work onpracticing saying those things,
either out loud or in my headout loud, you know what I mean?
Like just walking through that,just like people say, you know,
mantras in the morning, or thattype of thing, and that's really
powerful for them and changestheir day. Articulating that to
(18:34):
yourself repeatedly, like thischild is coming from a
perspective that is valued andmake sense to them and matters,
it's my job to figure out whatthat is, rather than getting
them in my lane over here sayingthat regularly makes a huge
difference. And so oftentimes Isee people or it can be easy to
(18:55):
like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we knowthat, yep. But then, like,
that's as far as it goes. Like,we all disagree, and then we
move on. But are we actuallypracticing that out loud and in
our heads? And that gets alittle at this question of,
like, what strategies do we useto promote competence? Because I
think it starts internally andthen moves outward. It's one of
(19:15):
those things where you can'tbulletin board your way to a
solution here, like it has tostart inside. So what? When you
think about it, what are some ofthe some of the strategies that
you think about when it comes topromoting competence?
Dr. Corey Drake (19:27):
Also, I think you're exactly right. I do think
it starts internally withteachers and recognizing that
every child, every human, ismaking sense and is competent,
and our job is to figure outhow, figure out what things mean
to them, and like I say, helpthem build on that. Because if
(19:48):
you go in with the other stance,which is our traditional stance,
of, does your sense making matchmine or not? Let's say we do
that, and let's say it doesn't,then what do I do? Right? Well,
then I. Try to tell you againhow I'm making sense to see if
you can match it, to see ifLillian doll would say, to see
if you can mimic it. But at thatpoint you have no opportunities
(20:11):
left for sense making, right?
I've cut off your youropportunities for sense making.
So I do think it is justreminding ourselves of that
constantly. But it's alsoshifting our language right?
It's shifting our language from,you know, of course, from like,
this is right or this is wrong,or here's what you missed, or
here's what you haven't doneyet, to what do you what do you
see that the child can do? Whatare they doing? What can you
(20:34):
build on? What do they know?
What are they able to do? Right?
You know, you all have heard mesay many, many times. I may have
said it on this podcast before,in fact, that you can't learn by
building on things you don'tknow. Learning happens by
building on and connecting tothings you do know and things
you can do already. And sothat's another piece I remind
(20:58):
myself of constantly. It doesnot help me as a teacher. It
does not help my student as alearner. For me to spend all my
time looking at what they don'tknow or what they didn't get
that won't get me anywhere, thatwon't get the student anywhere.
Ultimately, what I need tofigure out is, what do they
understand, and then how do webuild from there? And that's so
(21:18):
critically important. But Ithink the reason you and I and
everyone who made the shift hasto keep making the shift is that
our system pushes against it inso many ways. Right? Our
assessment systems, ourcurriculum systems, our special
education systems, like all ofour systems, still are grounded
(21:39):
in figuring out what studentscan't do and figuring out what
students don't know, versusfocusing on competence and what
students do know. And so asindividuals, though, we're
trying to change systems, we'retrying to push against systems,
but it is having that constantreminder to yourself that when I
(22:02):
look at a piece of student work,when I sit down with a child and
talk to them, what I want toknow is, what do you understand?
How are you making sense of theworld? What experiences are you
bringing to this? What questionsare you asking? And then I can
help you figure out how to buildon those and build new
understandings based on what youalready know and can do.
Unknown (22:26):
So I want to just go backwards for a second. Just I
want to make sure that ourlisteners are with us, and that
when we talk about likeClassroom Strategies, that we're
also talking about ways that wecan change ourselves and our
thinking, but also potentiallyways in which this might play
out as a classroom instructor.
So if I go back to the questionof who assigns competence, I
(22:50):
just want to make sure thatwe're we're all on the same
page, so we're saying that it'snot the teacher up in front of
the classroom that's assigningthe competence. It's the student
who's deciding how they're goingto get there. That's the agency
to gain the competence, todemonstrate their competence for
the teacher, I think it goeswhatever way makes sense to
(23:14):
them. No, I
Ashley O'Neil (23:16):
think it goes one step further to just say, like
everyone is competent, that isjust a blanket fact, and it's
our job as educators to buy intothat fact, right, and to and to
perpetuate and reinforce thatfact out there.
Unknown (23:34):
But if we're asking them to demonstrate a piece of
content back as competence,right? Like, if we're saying
like, you need to show me thatyou can multiply single numbers
or whatever, right? That's thethat's the competency piece. So
we're assuming that all of ourstudents are competent and able
(23:55):
to do that. But at some level,they have to demonstrate in some
way their sense making for that,right,
Dr. Corey Drake (24:06):
yes, but I would say, if I was in a
classroom and I thought astudent had not yet demonstrated
what they understood or whatthey could Do in relation to
that, that as the educator thatjust means I have more work to
do to open up thoseopportunities for students to
(24:29):
demonstrate their competence. Somaybe I'm not asking the right
questions, maybe I'm not openingup the space enough or
communicating enough that Ivalue lots of different ways of
making sense, so they'rereluctant to share how they're
making sense, right? So evenwhen a student is not yet
demonstrating their competencewith a particular piece of
(24:50):
content, it still does not meanthat they're not competent. It
means that I have yet to uncoverthat competence and connect to
it and build on it.
Julie Cunningham (24:59):
so that. Was the second part of my question.
I was yes. So then the strategyin the classroom becomes
offering students a number ofdifferent opportunities to
demonstrate that they've madesense of the multiplication or
whatever it is, whatever theskill or piece of content. So,
(25:21):
so if we're talking aboutstrategies for classroom
teachers, first a mindset, anindividual mindset, right, that
everyone in their classroom iscompetent, and reminding
themselves, that's what I'mhearing both of you talk about,
but then additionally, makingsure that there's multiple
avenues and multiple ways inwhich a student can demonstrate
(25:46):
to you that they've made senseof whatever it is you've asked
them,
Dr. Corey Drake (25:51):
yes, and I was multiple ways of making sense,
and then multiple and alsomultiple ways of demonstrating
or communicating that they'vemade sense and how they've made
sense so but yeah, absolutely, Ithink that's the heart of it.
Because I could, as a teacher,say, I believe all of you can do
this. I believe you're all sensemakers, and then I could give
you one way that's the right wayto solve this problem and one
(26:13):
way to explain it to me. Or Icould even open up the classroom
to multiple students explaininghow they solved it. But you
know, when Ashley solves it,it's not really the way I'm
looking for so I'm like, Uh huh,good. Julie solves it, and
that's the way I'm looking forit. So now let's really dig into
that, and let's highlight thatright? Again, I'm not com, I'm
(26:34):
not communicating then that Ivalue each of your competence in
the same way. So it is openingup those opportunities and
communicating through youractions that you really do value
and really are curious about theways each of your students is
making sense of that content you
Julie Cunningham (27:08):
This likely will not surprise you, but we
have more to say on this topic.
So much more, in fact, that wesplit this episode up into two
parts. We will be bringing youthe second portion of this
conversation with Corey soon. Inthe meantime, here's a quick
recap of this conversation asthere's a lot here to engage
with and think about competenceas we're talking about it is the
(27:29):
capacity and potential inside ofa person. People and kids are
people have the potential to doso many things. We know that
kids are innately curious andare actively making sense of the
world around them. When studentsare supported by the adults,
they are more willing to try newthings and test their thinking.
We see this in the makerspaceevery time we hold a program
(27:51):
where there are open endedproblem solving opportunities,
ie all of our programs. A coupleexamples come to mind, however,
such as invention convention,when kids identify a need, do
some research on the productswhich exist to solve the need
and then prototype their ownsolution. Or in the makerspace,
when kids engage with new tools,whether they are traditional
(28:13):
tools or technological tools,they need scaffolding and
supports to be successful. Andeven very young kids are finally
if we think back to Episode Oneon agency, one way in which we
can promote agency with ourstudents is to give them choice.
I want to end with a quote thatI heard recently, so let's keep
in mind as we continue thisconversation that we can change
(28:35):
how we get there if we haveagency, we.
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