September 23, 2024 • 43 mins
The podcast discusses the importance of agency in education and how the physical environment, routines, and intentional choices can encourage or discourage student agency. We share examples from our experiences in the makerspace, our classrooms, and other informal settings.
We highlight the importance of carefully designing the learning environment, both physically and procedurally, to empower students and foster their sense of ownership and independence.
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other Music: Vitaly Vakulenko from Pixabay
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
I think it's a combination. I think there's a
(00:02):
spirit about it. We hope tooffer a really welcoming
environment, and I thinkeverybody feels included, and I
hope they feel celebrated. We'rereally clear when we'd have the
volunteer orientation, if thisis something that you're doing
just to fulfill a requirementand you plan to be on your
phone, this is not the right fitfor you. If you want to come and
have a lot of fun and be fullyengaged and really mindful and
(00:23):
purposeful, great, come on.
Okay,
Ashley O'Neil (00:27):
now we're recording.
Unknown (00:32):
So welcome to teach wonder. Yes, welcome
to teach wonder, a podcasthosted by podcast hosted
Ashley O'Neil (00:44):
by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. That was
the voice of Dr Holly Hoffman,faculty here at CMU and
supervisor for connections thatcount on campus. We pulled this
clip from an old interview wedid with her, because it's such
a good lead into ourconversation about agency today.
So connections that count is astudent organization or an RSO
(01:06):
that partners with thedisability community to build
relationships between undergradsin the RSO and the children and
adults in the program, and theydo this through activities and
social connection. We're luckyenough to be a regular host of
this group, and we love it. Andwhat Holly's talking about here
is the feel of the group whenyou walk through the door. Do
you feel welcome? Do you feelscrutinized, like an
(01:27):
interruption, a burden, anoutsider, a joy? How someone
feels when they're introduced toa space or community or lesson,
it sets the tone for so muchpeople show up and they almost
immediately take stock. Is thisa place where I can share my
ideas. Is there someone here whouses power to intimidate that I
need to watch out for? Is this aplace where I should comply just
(01:47):
for the sake of peace? Howparticipatory, how vulnerable,
how open we are to trying newthings. People are so dependent
on the environment that they'rein to figure this stuff out, and
children are people, so they dothis too. And so Holly goes a
step further to talk a bit abouthow CMU students should
anticipate showing up in thespace, how they should take
ownership of setting the tone.
And as most of these CMUundergrads plan to be future
(02:09):
educators, we love howintentional Holly is about
building the ownership for them.
Teaching with intentionality iswhere it's at. Good teaching and
great classrooms don't happen byaccident. In today's episode of
teach wonder, we're continuingthis conversation about agency,
and we're talking about justthis, what we do before students
walk in the door. In our lastepisode, we introduced why
(02:31):
agency matters in education, aswell as talking about our own
information and personaldefinitions when it comes to
this, this time, we're focusingon vibes, the environment and
the setup. How do these thingsencourage or discourage agency,
and what are the consequencespositive and negative of this?
We talk about examples from themakerspace and our own teaching
and Julie's volunteer work at906 adventure team, which is a
(02:54):
group that gets students outmountain biking at a pretty
young age. We focus on threemain aspects today, the physical
space, the routines and what weintentionally leave out. Here's
our conversation.
Unknown (03:16):
Yeah, so I think we've spent a lot of time in the
makerspace thinking about and wehaven't changed things
drastically recently, but overthe years, there's times that we
did change things prettydrastically when we really
wanted to think about studentsand student agency for making so
I'd like to consider how tospace and the placement of
(03:39):
materials encourage ordiscourage agency. Over the
years, we've thought aboutfamily makes especially that
way, right? How can we when afamily comes to our space, how
can everybody sort of be on thesort of level playing field as a
maker, regardless of whetherthey're the adult or parent or
the child in this situation? SoI think that also provides us
(04:02):
with some really solid examplesof how we've set up both the
space and the sort of directionsin such a way that everybody has
access.
Ashley O'Neil (04:14):
I think I want to break the rules, though, and
start by talking about anexample of why the why
environment matters by sharing astory from my own classroom and
how I took away student agency.
And it was not, not that there'sanyone's fault. I was like
putting something on thestudents, but was really the
space wasn't working for us. Andinstead of making a space
(04:35):
adjustment, I made a studentindependence adjustment. And if
I could go back, I would changeit. So when I was in the
resource room, I taught in afourth and fifth grade resource
room, I had these bins. I hadthis shelf that was, like,
esthetically, was the perfectshelf to put these bins on. They
fit just so and they were at eyelevel for the students, or,
like, reaching level, and I hadeveryone's name on them, and it
(04:57):
was where they're in. Pendantwork was so if I was working in
small groups and they came in,they could go grab their bin and
do the activity in there. And Ithought I was clever, because
the bin was big enough to fitmanipulatives and worksheets and
whatever. And I didn't thinkabout the fact that that cubby
was built into the wall and wasright in front of the door. And
(05:17):
so it was always a traffic jam.
And this first time I hadstudents do this, it was a
traffic disaster. Kids werecoming in. All the kids were
clogged, waiting to get theirbins they couldn't access right
away, right? And so my parabolaintervened, and was like, hey,
you need to, you know, stoptalking, stop talking to each
other. Go sit down. And then shejust started, like, passing out
(05:39):
their bins to them. And so forlike, a solid month, that was
their new routine, where insteadof them being able to go get
their own bin, we took that awayand because they couldn't,
quote, unquote, handle it, andmy ParaPRO passed it out. Well,
after some reflection, Irealized that that wasn't quite
true. So instead of using thepretty shelf I wanted, I spread
(05:59):
their bins around the room. Sothree were in the front, three
were in the back, two were offto the side, whatever. And
magically, the bins work superwell, and my students were able
to go get them of their own freewill, when they were ready, when
they needed them, they could putthem away. And so the problem
was not the student's ability todo that independently. The
problem was not the task athand. The problem was like the
(06:20):
environment just wasn't set up,and the traffic jam was there.
And by taking that away, I couldhave fixed the environment. But
instead I tried to, like changeto children's behavior. And I
think about examples like theall the time in my classroom,
where my setup of thingsprobably caused issues. And
instead I was like, well, thekids aren't handling it. I'm
just going to back off and I'mgoing to do it for them, or I'm
(06:42):
going to add more structure whensometimes the environment could
change it. And we've got somereally great examples of how we
do that in the makerspace, I
Unknown (06:49):
think, like, you can't always see that until you try
it, either, right? Like we'vetried things that could have and
should have maybe worked in themakerspace and just didn't and
had to rearrange how we hadaccessibility. But I don't know
you know how I think sometimesyou have to try it before you
realize that, and then, like yousay, reflect on it for yourself.
(07:13):
Some things that continue towork for us are putting things
in clear plastic, like largejars. It doesn't really matter
that they're large, but sostudents can that's on a shelf
where students can access andthey can see what's in the jar,
right? They can see that there'sbuttons here, or they can see
(07:36):
that there's quirks here, andeasily access them. So I think
that's something that has workedfor us from the start. That's
something that we haven'tchanged, something we have
changed any number of times, butnot recently, is not the
accessibility of things. We'vealways tried to make the
materials that we want studentsto use to prototype be
(07:57):
accessible. That's always beenon the forefront of our mind, I
feel like, but the way in whichwe organize them and the way in
which we make them accessible,so that students can a, both
take them when they need them,but also B, put them back where
they got them from when they nolonger need them, like those
two, that's been a tension attimes, and I think That seems to
(08:20):
have a pretty good system rightnow. So just for the sake of
imagery on this podcast,everything in the makerspace
that we want students to havedirect access to for prototyping
is at their level, at theirheight, and marked with what it
(08:40):
is not, not that I'm saying thatstudents always read what's in
the bins, but also for us, forour sakes anyway, and then
easily accessible, right? Sothey don't have to ask us for
scissors or glue sticks orrulers or pencils, like those
things are, just please go, takethem when you need them, and use
them, right for the as the toolis intended?
Ashley O'Neil (09:05):
Yeah, and I think we also think about categories,
because I I agree with you, likeour quick, fast rule is, if you
can see it, if it's open, youcan use it. If it's in a closed
container or closed behind aclosed door, ask first, right?
And that's a really fast rulethat we can give students and
they can quickly kind of own,but we also have these broad
(09:26):
categories when it comes toputting things back right. Like
most of our prototyping,recycled materials are in one
space. Most of our officesupplies that you would think of
like pencils, scissors, gluesticks, that type of thing, is
in a completely other space. Andwe can kind of point that out to
students to say, if you'relooking for something that you
can build with, it's over here.
If you're looking for somethingto embellish that build, whether
(09:48):
it's drawing on it or cutting itor changing the shape, it's
going to be over here. If you'relooking for adhesives, ways to
attach things, they're up here.
And so by kind of orienting or.
Orienting them and having thosebig categories that they can
understand. It helps them thinkabout where things are. Because
you're right. We don't often getkids who will read every single
label on every single container.
(10:11):
But if you say, they say, Whereare the scissors? And you can
look at them and say, Okay,where are the things that you
would need to where are theoffice supplies, type things, or
the school supplies things?
They're like, oh yeah. Andthey'll walk over there and
they'll know where those binsare. It also helps with the
adults in our space, since wehave so many parents and new
teachers and chaperones, kind ofwalking through the faster we
can get them to feel comfortableand like they don't have to ask
(10:34):
where everything is, the fasterthey kind of have that sense of
agency and can move through theroom easily.
Unknown (10:44):
And then I think, even for things like, you know, they
can access the electricity bypulling down the cable from the
ceiling. Right? Most kids canmanage that, unless they're
simply, like, too short to reachit, and then they have to ask an
adult for help, but most kidscan manage that and plugging in
a glue gun at the table, andthen, you know, maintaining
(11:07):
their, I mean, cold hot glueguns for whatever that's worth,
but also, like sort ofmaintaining their safety with
that type of a tool, right?
Because they've pulled down theelectricity, and they've plugged
in the hot glue gun, and they'reaware of where it is, and they
can share one at a table and andthings like that. I think really
(11:27):
are empowering for them. As amaker like we didn't tell them
you only have access to ducttape, nope. Here's your options
of adhesives, right? If you needhelp plugging in a hot glue gun
let us know. But otherwise, thisis how it works. And so now,
once they're familiar with thatand that sort of routine, they
(11:49):
have the ability to go ahead anddo that for themselves,
Ashley O'Neil (11:56):
just to jump in and clarify. So in addition to
general supplies, cardboard,tape, straw, paper, glue,
pencils. We do have some moreindustrial options in the
makerspace that you probablywouldn't find in your typical
classroom, namely, we havedrills, hand saws, wire cutters,
pliers, ad printer, a lasercutter, a sublimation printer,
and some other more intensecutting tools. Here's how we
(12:18):
think about giving studentsaccess to those materials with
safety in mind.
Unknown (12:23):
So we do have some parameters in place, like those
tools can be utilized and can beaccessible. But also we've sort
of set it up where we do havesome stop gap measures for
things. And
Ashley O'Neil (12:38):
again, I think we're using this space as that
stop, rather than like us as theperson in charge, right? Like
naturally, the tools are therebecause they are available for
kids to use, but we know thattension between safety and their
enthusiasm does matter. And soby making the batteries
unavailable, they can go grab adrill. They can see what it
(12:58):
looks like. They can see thebits that are there. And then
when they come ask for the thebattery, it allows us the pause
to say, okay, yeah, let's getthe space set up so we can make
that happen, by the way. Whatare you happening? What are you
looking to drill? Can you tellme about what you're making, and
we can learn a little bit aboutwhat they're doing. And they're
hearing a yes all along the way,but there's this natural pause
(13:18):
where they've got to stop andkind of share what it is they're
doing. Where do they want it todrill? Okay, when we when we
drill something, we typicallymark it. Can you put a mark on
there for me while I get theclamp kind of set up, and then
we're doing it with them. So itkeeps us from the safety concern
of 15 kids drilling at the sametime. But then it also puts
those natural pauses in to makethose kids kind of think through
their ideas, reflect on whatthey're doing, not just drill
(13:41):
for the sake of drilling, whichis sometimes Okay, and then we
can show them the safe way to doit, but we're not having to say
no 1000 times, right? We can sayyes a lot, but it slows down the
yeses,
Unknown (13:53):
right? I think the other thing having some things
behind closed doors does for usis, again, it allows us to ask
some questions, right? As youmentioned about, yeah, that's
great. That's a great idea. Whatare you going to do with this?
But also, like, Sure, use allthe cardboard you want that's
out and freely available, right?
But maybe the lights andbatteries and motors aren't, uh,
(14:14):
aren't quite a free for all.
They're not just quite as asdisposable as some of the
recycled materials. So we wantto pay attention to using things
in a responsible manner, notjust from safety standpoint, but
also from a like just a carbonfootprint sort of standpoint,
(14:35):
right? Like we're not justthrowing things away in the
makerspace, maybe we'rereutilizing them, or maybe we're
being a little bit thoughtfulabout how we use them to begin
with, so that we're using themin a sustainable manner, or so
that other students have anopportunity to also use these
things. So I think those twothings go hand in hand, right?
And we don't, again, we don'tneed to say that like I want you
(14:57):
to use this in a sustainablemanner, but. Also, sure just
tell me about how you're usingit. And yeah, of course you can
do that. But let's show me whatthis is going to look like my
Ashley O'Neil (15:08):
example. When I thought about that stewardship
example, like one of our biggesttensions, I think we've talked
about safety, and we talk aboutconsumption and thoughtful
consumption of materials. And sowe have cool materials. And for
me, the one that comes to mindall the time is copper tape. We
have copper tape, which isexpensive, and it's a it's a
limited like it's a finiteresource, and it's meant for
circuits. It's meant to makecircuits. And so if you don't
(15:31):
know what it is, how expensiveit is, what its purpose is,
you're tempted to like wallpaperthe entire inside of your
prototype dog kennel, becauseit's shiny and pretty, right?
And that is completelyreasonable for a fourth grader
to think, but we're notinstilling great stewardship if
we just say yes, and we're notin teaching any agent or
allowing for any agency if wejust say no and hide it. Never
(15:52):
get it out, right? So some ofthat technical stuff is hidden
away, and then we label thatcabinet circuitry. So if we have
a kid who says, you know, Iwould like to light up my dog
kennel? Is there a way I can dothat? We can say, Sure, let's
take a look at the supplies wehave in here. We've got this
tape. It's shiny, but itspurpose is that it's conductive.
We're going to get a small pieceout. Here's what you need. Can
(16:13):
you figure out how to make acircuit using these supplies? If
I explain what they do, right?
So again, we're removing thatneed of like constantly saying,
No, you can't have that. No,that's too much. No, we're not
going to do that. And instead,you put in the position to say,
yes, let me show you how to dothis thoughtfully, which, again,
I think the more times a studentcan hear like, yes, let me show
you how is another way toinstill their confidence, their
(16:34):
sense of place here, and thatlike, I can do this and I'm
independent. I look back at ourquestions, one of the other
things we talked about was, sohow we set up the environment,
and you brought up the familyevents. And I think one way that
we do that, that I thinkteachers, it translates well to
the classroom, is just how wethat we set up the space, right?
So having tables and clustersencourages a family to sit
(16:55):
around those clusters, havingkind of some simple directions
up on the board and invitationkind of encourages them to
discuss those questions witheach other, to get started with
materials that are at theirspace. When people come and ask
us a question, we often havethem go get the thing
themselves, because then theylearn where things are on their
own. And we try to be reallymindful to say like we're not
here providing some sort oftutorial for you. Another thing
(17:17):
I think about when we set up ourenvironment, though, is routine.
And routine is a tricky one,because routine gives students a
sense of autonomy, because theyknow what to expect. When they
know what to anticipate. Theyknow kind of what's coming. It
frees up their capacity tolearn. But I think that we try
to strike this balance betweenflexible and rigid, because if
(17:40):
routine doesn't take intoaccount what students
perspectives are, then that'sthe opposite of agentic, right?
So if the schedule is so rigidthat students have to constantly
stop what they're doing in themiddle of everything, because
we're all moving on, thatthere's no freedom for them to
make a choice within that or toadvocate for themselves, right?
So in our space, we may pulleveryone together and say, Okay,
(18:01):
this is the next step in thetask, but we never say, like,
you have to be done with whatyou are doing and move on to
where I am right now, right likewe're gonna pause and kind of
share things with you, but youget to finish up what you're
working on. And so when studentsget to finish their task, or to
kind of choose some of thetiming, or the the order that
they do things, or if they feellike they're the facilitator of
(18:24):
the adult is kind of hearingtheir input, right? Like we're
constantly adjusting our timeframe based on what the flow is
of the students, that I thinkreally helps them build their
sense of their autonomy. Soroutine, yes, is important, but
it's almost how you implementthat routine and how flexible or
responsive you are to thestudents, I think that, for me,
feels like either building up orkind of taking away some of
(18:48):
their agency. Yeah,
Unknown (18:51):
I agree. I was thinking routine was the other half of
that sort of space considerationas well, and I was trying to
think about all the differentways that we've done family
makes over the years, because Ithink that is a program that
we've hung on to, but it haschanged considerably. We used to
(19:12):
have just kind of like a makeand take right where everybody
got the same sort of directions,and although they might be open
ended, everyone was kind ofdoing the same thing, and now
we've really come full circle,and it's much more open make,
and there's a large number ofmaterials and tools available on
(19:33):
a Saturday morning, but we giveVery few directions even well
sometimes because the peopleusing the tools are more
advanced than the person givingthe directions, which is totally
fine right in the makerspace,because everybody should feel
like they're an expert, or thatthey've got some skills that are
(19:56):
of value there, and then othertimes, just. Because there's too
many different sort of pulls onour attention, right? Like,
here's the iPad and here's theapp, and, you know, there might
be a YouTube video that can helpyou out, but otherwise, like,
Here you go. I mean, sometimesthat's really the constraint is
(20:18):
how much bandwidth you have forhow many people that you're
assisting, and so then parentsand kids sort of are having to
figure it out together. Also, Iwas going to say that I think
the other thing that we'rereally intentional with on this
family makes is, besidesclustering tables, as if we have
(20:39):
robots available, there's somedesignated space to sort of like
go do those robots that you'renot underfoot of the other
people, right? And I think also,now that we've sort of expanded
some of our spaces, from the tothe Green Screen Room and the
marble run wall like that, alsosort of spreads people out and
(21:02):
allows some agency in terms ofwhat your sort of interests are.
And we didn't always have thoseadditional spaces available the
way that we do now, when
Ashley O'Neil (21:11):
I was thinking about this question ahead of
time and I was thinking aboutroutines, I think a lot about
Reggio Emilia when it because Ithink that that kind of idea of
setting up a classroom is reallythoughtful and mindful about how
an invitation can send the sameinformation that maybe an
instructor could give right. Sohow can I provide what the
expectations or the materialsare without me being physically
(21:34):
present? But I also think it ishow you approach what you want
your space to feel like. And sofor one of the examples that I
thought of when I was thinkingabout this was, um, how would
teams provide familiarity? Andthe difference between helping
like someone you know reallywell, a best friend or a family
member cook dinner, versus likea new acquaintance in their
kitchen? Right? So at your bestfriend's house, you know where
(21:57):
things are, you know to not usethe front door, because everyone
uses the garage, and you'regonna drop your shoes in the
closet. You know where theutensils are, so you can start
chopping, and you can pull stuffout of the pantry without having
to ask, because you'recomfortable there, right? You
know when they eat. So you knowwhen to get there. So you can
help make dinner, and you canbanter with your friend while
you're doing it. You know thattheir kid like doesn't like
(22:17):
sauce on their pasta, so youknow to not mix it all together,
because there's just things thatyou know that kind of grow with
that familiarity over time, andit makes you feel like you're a
part of that rhythm and you cancontribute, and you're probably
a lot more productive andcleaning up and moving around
and helping put things away,because you know that space and
it feels comfortable to you,versus the new acquaintance,
(22:38):
right? You're having to interactwith questions to ask, where
things go, you're going tofollow their lead kind of just
doing, like, just what you'veasked me to do, or you're going
to have to ask a bunch ofquestions about where to put
stuff and how to do things. Iwould probably tend to be, like,
overly tidy, where that lookedlike a kitchen slob, and I'd be
less participatory. So when Ithink about our family events, I
think about that right, like,how can we when people ask us
(23:01):
where things are, how can we doit in a way that encourages them
to say, like, this is your placetoo? How can we do it in a way
so that they end up knowingwhere things are in the future
so they feel comfortable justgrabbing it for themselves? They
feel that kind of familiarityand ease together. And when I
think about like that, that longterm goal of like, we want them
to feel the same level ofcomfort that I would a kitchen
(23:21):
of my friend's house that helpsme with how I answer questions
and how I set things out and howI share information. Because my
ultimate goal is not that thisfeels like a classroom and that
I feel like your teacher all thetime. I want to make myself
redundant, because you're justso comfortable in this space
that you can move through itwith ease, and I'm here if you
(23:42):
need me, and you can rely onthat, but I don't have to direct
you. And
Unknown (23:46):
we've really seen that this last year with our the big
changes that we made to familymake, and it's, I think, really
exciting and much more fun interms of facilitating a program
when we can turn around and sayto a student who's familiar with
the app or familiar with thetool or familiar with the
(24:07):
materials, right? Can you helpso and so? And now we've had a
student who doesn't matter whatage they are helping somebody
else, another maker who doesn'tmatter what age they are. So
we've sort of like leveled theplaying field with adults and
students, and we've seen that anumber of times, I think,
recently, with people who comeoften are willing to sort of
(24:31):
take some ownership over boththe space and the routines, and
they know where those toolsexist, and they know where to Go
get or if they don't, they knowwho to ask, and as you said,
sort of how to ask it like youknow that we're your supports.
And I think that's true withalso true, although the ages are
(24:54):
much more standardized at thecollege make, but they sort of
have. There's a number ofcollege students who have sort
of decided that that really istheir place to be on a
weeknight, right? And they'remore than willing to become an
expert, and I'm putting expertin quotation marks, just for the
(25:15):
sake of our podcast listeners,but to have some familiarity
with tools or stuff, right? Andhelp others out?
Ashley O'Neil (25:24):
Yeah. And I think that that gets back at another
theme about when I think aboutagency. So there's the
intentional setup, there's theestablishing and, like,
flexibility of routines, andthen it's the things that we
don't do, right? Like, it's theabsence, and I think of absence
of words and absence of space.
So a preschool example. We havethis younger homeschool group
that we've been working with,I've been working with, and it's
(25:44):
been a project of mine this lastyear. And we converted these old
office kind of this open officespace so it's relatively open.
There's some built in cabinets.
There's a counter. We have a mixof tables in the room, and we've
got some open company shelvesthat have materials and toys
that are always availablebecause of that rule, like, if
you can see it, you can use it,but then off in the corner we
have this, like it used to havedesks there, but they were
(26:06):
pulled out, so it's just emptywall space. And there's a gym
map, and that is it right. Thewalls are empty. And if you walk
into this space, it probablylooks a little too empty. Maybe
under curated would be the rightword. And I think when we were
making that space, a lot of myfellow teammates, with great
intentions were like, we couldput this here, we could put this
here, we could put this here.
Why don't we fill it with this?
You know, are you sure you don'twant to put this here? And I
(26:29):
really didn't, and I kind ofsaid no, and that is the spot
that gets used most often bystudents, and is the least it is
very underwhelming to look atthat Matt is sometimes used to
get out energy. It's very oftenthe spot that kids gravitate to
to work, and that blank wall istransformed into flashlights.
It's used by the overhead.
They've taped papers on the walland put cardboard on it for
(26:50):
projects. So it's intentionallyvacant. It's intentionally empty
because it's a physical spotwhere I've tried to make room
for students, where they canhear a Yes, right? Like, yeah,
you can make there, yeah, youcan put that up there because
it's not already being used forsomething else. And I think that
crosses over to where and wherein your classroom, whether it's
your planning or your activity.
(27:13):
Have you left space for studentsto fill it, right? Or have you
decided everything all the waythrough and they're just moving
through your decisions. I thinkhow you approach that, whether
it's physical or, like I said,activity decisions, I think that
makes a big difference in yourclassroom.
Unknown (27:32):
That sort of reminds me of something that which we can't
easily do, but it maybe doeshappen in two locations for us,
but classrooms in which teachersor students are able to leave
ongoing projects up and goingand the agency that that gives
kids to add to it and to iterateit, rather than starting over.
(27:55):
And I'm thinking of I firstheard that suggestion from a
teacher at the CD LL, the childdevelopment learning lab on
campus, right, where they wouldleave up the train set or leave
up the whatever the kids weredoing with the cars, right? We
don't have a lot of spaces, justbecause we have a lot of
turnover and the groups thatcome to our space. But the
(28:17):
marble run wall is one example,and the LEGO wall is another so
if, if a child doesn't changesome other child's Marble Run or
Lego creativity, right, thenthat would stay up and be able
to be added to or modified. Andwe often don't remove things
(28:38):
from the LEGO wall for for greatperiods of time. But that's
another way in which kids wouldhave agency over simply, rather
than having to start over,right? They have a way to just
sort of keep modifying or keepiterating or keep developing or
keep creating. Yeah,
Ashley O'Neil (28:53):
and I think to go along with that, I think that
the what I'm hearing you say isreally about honoring what kids
are doing and leaving space forthat. And I was thinking about,
when we're in the makerspacedirecting something, it is often
that you'll see one of us, thisis my favorite thing to do. So
(29:14):
I'll say myself, I would farrather go to every group that's
working and give the samedirection eight times, then stop
everybody and gather everyonetogether and give the set of
directions once, right? So howcan we get them moving and doing
as quickly as possible? Andthen, how can we keep their
threat of thought going andhonor what they're working on?
(29:34):
So giving that short kind ofhuddled chat interspersed
between work time versus thatlong oratory, and also it's so
much less disruptive and so muchmore meaningful to them. If I
can walk over see what they'redoing, let them keep working and
talk at their volume, ratherthan yelling and stopping
everyone, making them put downthe thing that they're working
on, I'm treating their time likeit's as valuable as mine, right?
(29:56):
And the thing I have to say, isapplicable to what you're doing,
so much so that. Keep doing it,but then listen to me while
we're chatting, and let me hearabout what you've got going on.
And so I know that can feel lessefficient, but I would argue
that stopping everybody andwaiting for them and having them
clean up their supplies so youcan share like a direction, only
to have them go back to thework. It takes a lot of time as
(30:16):
well. It's just a differentamount of time, if that makes
sense.
Unknown (30:19):
Yeah, I think that does make good sense, and I've seen
you do that. You do that quitewell. Or you walk, you know,
lean down at the table, get downat their level and give. And I
think it feels personal to kidstoo, right? They're listening.
You're right there at theirlevel, and they're you're
talking to them personally,rather talk, rather than giving
a direction that applies to thewhole group. Okay? Yes, you
(30:43):
know, I like to make bridgesbetween the group I volunteer
with, which is 906 adventureteam, the Midland chapter, or
the Midland area adventure team.
And I always find it sofascinating when we have things
that work really well at thislike, relatively informal biking
group with kids, and they worklike I when I can see the
(31:06):
crossover to education, I in myhead. I find that fascinating.
So sorry, listeners. If youdon't find that fascinating for
just a half second, you're gonnalive in my brain. Um, so there's
a couple of ways that we arevery much about routines. There
are now 12 adventure teamsaround Wisconsin and Michigan,
and we all very much have thesame or very similar to the
(31:30):
same. We aim for the sameroutines right at the different
locations. So we don't have thesame kids, we don't have the
same volunteers, we don't havethe same locations, but our
routines are the same for a veryspecific reason. Reason right
number one, to give kids agency,because it's their adventure,
(31:51):
it's their bike ride. And thennumber two, of course, there's
some safety things involved, butwhen I think of a couple of
examples, one is that our wecall it base camp, our place in
which we meet, which happens tobe the Midland city. For us, it
looks exactly the same everyMonday night it's set up exactly
the same. So it doesn't matterwhat age child there is coming
(32:13):
with their bike. Our youngestare four or five. They show up
with their bike. They knowexactly where to go. They know
exactly which coach will be attheir station. They know exactly
what peers they're looking for.
They set their bike at a cone,right? They do their ABCD bike
check, and then they know thatthe next thing they're going to
(32:35):
be doing is maybe getting alittle instruction and riding,
and it's the same every singleweek. That is one last thing
that those kids have to thinkabout, right? They just show up
to do their adventure and have agood time. The routine stays the
same, and they can start theroutine on their own at the cone
(32:55):
every week. And so that's beenreally important. And I think
for anybody adult or child whogets a little bit anxious about
something new or about thingschanging, right? We take all of
that away. All of the adventureis out on the bike. It's not
about the way in which the basecamp looks or runs when things
(33:17):
that we know work in ourMakerSpace or we know work in
classrooms when they also workoutside of those classrooms, in
big, open spaces, working withkids. I just, I don't know, I
think that's really interesting.
Ashley O'Neil (33:30):
Yeah, well, and I think, like part of our goal is
that some of the things thatwe're talking about here, yes,
they employed in formal Ed andin our MakerSpace, but we do
them not because this works inthe context of our four walls or
whatever, but that these thingswork well for all children, all
people, and that's why they'reworking well for our students,
is that we're pulling onpractices that we know are
(33:52):
really successful. One of thequestions that we had talked
about sharing is how marketingand presentation of events can
support or discourage agency.
And so I think that this ismarketing. Sounds like it's a
big global conversation thatmaybe is in your classroom, but
presentation of an event or howwe set up or share, like what
(34:14):
we're about to do the launchwith a student, um, how does
that support or discourageagency? Do you have any thoughts
about that? I have many, but doyou have any thoughts about
that? I
Unknown (34:25):
was thinking about more along the lines of what you
mentioned earlier with, like theinvitation, or the way in which
directions or lack of directionsare shared. That was kind of
where my brain was going withthat, as well as, I think how we
do promote a description of anevent, potentially, but you're
(34:46):
right, that has less tie in to asort of classroom, yeah, so I'd
be interested in hearing whatyou have to say. And I'm sure
that'll generate more ideas forme too. So
Ashley O'Neil (34:57):
I thought about this, and I'll be I wanted me.
Honest and say like, this is noteasy, and it is a constant
struggle for us, right? It'ssomething that we talk about
often. From a marketingstandpoint, we have this word
stem in our name, which carriesa lot of meaning for adults,
just like math carries a lot ofmeaning for students, or history
or social studies carries a lotof meaning. So they show up with
this expectation based onassumptions for what they think
(35:19):
it's going to be about, right?
And while our stuff is verymeaningful, and I would argue
it's so important to kidslearning, they may not look like
this stereotypical academic,rigorous thing, right? There's
no one leaving here with a labsheet. And so sometimes we're
educating our communities aboutwhat it is we do do, and the
value and how what we're doingis rigorous work. It's just
rigorous in a different way. Andso I think these were the word
(35:41):
make. A lot we've learned to bereally intentional about our
language. And so we talk aboutwhat our kids are doing. So in
all of our camps and our afterschool programming, there's an
expectation that kids are doingright. They're not getting
information. You don't read thethings that we're sharing. To
think, Oh, my students going tosit here and learn from a
PowerPoint this entire time. Andwhat I love about that is that
(36:02):
working in formal Ed, ininformal Ed, for me, kind of has
given me this permission to talkto students like they're on this
equal footing with me. I'velearned so much from the
students that have come in here,and I enjoy my time with them. I
genuinely delight in theirideas. And I think that equality
kind of shows up with how wetalk about kids, how we share
(36:22):
the information, how we thinkabout giving them just the
essentials. When I was ateacher, I would give so much
extraneous information thatwasn't really pertinent to what
it is the students needed toknow or do, but I felt like I
needed to share that justbecause I was like, I don't
know. I needed to share all theinformation that was going on in
my head. And I think thinkingabout that, thinking about those
things, making it too wordy ortoo explanatory, we really get
(36:45):
at the essence of what ourprogramming is, which helps us
again with those yeses. Soagain, this is where my big
thoughts are. Sometimes I thinkI have a five year old at home,
and he asks why I think morethan any other human I've ever
met in my life, and I appreciatethat about him, but he really
makes me think about myjustification and my reasoning
for every decision that I do andin the workplace, in education,
(37:10):
I think that's really important,because sometimes, if we haven't
thought through all of that andgotten to that underlying what's
a real point of This activity,we can make kids go through
these unnecessary hoops thatmaybe lose their engagement or
take away their feeling ofagency, right? But if my point
of this activity is really tohave them, I don't know
(37:30):
understand the transfer ofenergy, does it really matter if
they do it on that worksheet ina specific way? Does it really
matter if they do this or thisfirst, right? Like, if I really
understand my why, I can makereally good decisions when
students ask to do things in adifferent way, which gives them
back some of that ownership,right? Whereas, if I'm just like
(37:50):
walking through my lesson,because this is what I'm
supposed to do, and I haven'tthought it out, and I haven't
gotten to the essentials, Iprobably will be less likely to
give them freedom to move,because I haven't worked that
all out in my own head. Doesthat make sense?
Unknown (38:05):
Yeah, I think that makes good sense. And I think as
adults, we often don't, don'tthink about the the why, right?
We don't ask ourselves thatprobably often enough to think
about, why am I asking them todo this? And does it really
matter if they do it this way?
Is that, is that a a nonnegotiable in this sense,
Ashley O'Neil (38:29):
where is the investment of energy and
resources when you encourageagency and planning and events?
So we're spending this, I don'tknow how many to be determined,
number of episodes, but a decentchunk of episodes this semester
is really us diving into agencyand how we do that, and all the
related practices that go alongwith it. And one of them is,
where is the investment ofenergy and resources? Because we
(38:51):
hear all the time, teachers arebusy, they have a lot going on,
and that that is all true.
Everybody's busy and has a lotgoing on. And when we say
something sounds like it's goingto be more or an additional ask
that can already set people upto feel exhausting. So where do
you see the investment of energyand resources when you start
thinking about agency first,when you're planning an event or
an activity?
Unknown (39:15):
I think I see all of the investment up front, right?
It's all in the planning,because although staff, we need
to be present for the event,when we plan to put the students
(39:35):
or the families on equal footingwith us. All of that, I feel
like all that is conversationsthat we have up front. All of
that is what's worked. Why arewe doing it? And then we set the
space up and determine at theevent, right? What do we need to
(39:57):
do differently next time, sothat we get even further? Along
that road of people feeling likethis is their space and they're
comfortable and they can utilizethe tools in the way that they
want to use the tools. I thinkof that I was a high school
science teacher, so that allcomes natural to me in terms of
setting up the lab in advanceand sort of standing back right,
(40:19):
or setting up the inquiry inadvance and sort of standing
back, yeah, that takes someenergy, and that takes some
energy. It takes someforethought. It takes some being
clear about your reasons andclear about your materials, and
clear about how the materialscan and cannot be used, being
clear about your constraints andyour time and your number of
(40:41):
people who can have access tothe things at once, right? And
where those people are going tobe in the space, all of that, I
feel like is is up front, whichallows us just to at an event,
really kind of facilitate,really, kind of stand back and
enjoy the program and enjoy theparticipants and not have to
(41:05):
worry about what we're going tosay next, or where we're going
to stand next, or what are thestudents going to be doing while
we they wait for our nextdirection. That's all an
investment in the time rightduring the that we don't
necessarily have,
Ashley O'Neil (41:21):
yeah, I think my thoughts are very similar. I
spend a decent amount of timethinking about what that the
essential point is of ouractivity, like, why are people
really here? What is the thing Iwant? Maybe less with our family
events, because those are soopen ended, but with a preschool
event, like, Hey, this is, thisis the essential thing for me,
(41:42):
so that I'm prepared to think,and then I spend a fair amount
of time thinking prettydivergently, like where all the
different ways that students maytake this, where all the
different pathways that theymight go. So if there is a tool
or a resource or something Ineed to have in my back pocket,
I have that available, and I'mnot caught off guard. But it
also helps me really thinkflexibly about the activity and
(42:02):
feel creative, so that when theycome in, and if they're kind of
stagnant or stuck, I know someplaces that I could see things
going and I can offer that inthe moment, which is, I think,
pretty helpful for us. So Ispend a whole lot less time
thinking about what it is I'mactually teaching. It's very
unlike direct instruction forme, I may spend a little bit of
(42:23):
time thinking about mydirections, so I'm saying as
little as possible, and I'msaying it in the most, most
efficient way possible, becauseI know that people's attention
spans get lost the longer Italk, right? But then, yeah,
when they're here, I'm spendingmy time being responsive, kind
of watching, doing a lot ofobserving. Of what are people
doing? What are they interestedin? What are some opportunities
(42:44):
that we could, like, have aconversation or learn a little
bit from that? Or how could Imaybe encourage them to use a
tool to try something in a newway? So it's more work upfront,
but a lot less work during thattime. I'm no, we're not cruise
directors here, right? So we'renot orchestrating every five
minutes, pivoting to the newactivity, which is really
refreshing.
(43:13):
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. You can find links
in our show notes, as well as afull transcript in our next
episode. We're talking aboutsomething that starts before
students walk in the door, andmust be a continuous and
intentional mindset foreducators. Tune in next time to
hear all about it. You
I think it's a combination. I think there's a
(00:02):
spirit about it. We hope tooffer a really welcoming
environment, and I thinkeverybody feels included, and I
hope they feel celebrated. We'rereally clear when we'd have the
volunteer orientation, if thisis something that you're doing
just to fulfill a requirementand you plan to be on your
phone, this is not the right fitfor you. If you want to come and
have a lot of fun and be fullyengaged and really mindful and
(00:23):
purposeful, great, come on.
Okay,
Ashley O'Neil (00:27):
now we're recording.
Unknown (00:32):
So welcome to teach wonder. Yes, welcome
to teach wonder, a podcasthosted by podcast hosted
Ashley O'Neil (00:44):
by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. That was
the voice of Dr Holly Hoffman,faculty here at CMU and
supervisor for connections thatcount on campus. We pulled this
clip from an old interview wedid with her, because it's such
a good lead into ourconversation about agency today.
So connections that count is astudent organization or an RSO
(01:06):
that partners with thedisability community to build
relationships between undergradsin the RSO and the children and
adults in the program, and theydo this through activities and
social connection. We're luckyenough to be a regular host of
this group, and we love it. Andwhat Holly's talking about here
is the feel of the group whenyou walk through the door. Do
you feel welcome? Do you feelscrutinized, like an
(01:27):
interruption, a burden, anoutsider, a joy? How someone
feels when they're introduced toa space or community or lesson,
it sets the tone for so muchpeople show up and they almost
immediately take stock. Is thisa place where I can share my
ideas. Is there someone here whouses power to intimidate that I
need to watch out for? Is this aplace where I should comply just
(01:47):
for the sake of peace? Howparticipatory, how vulnerable,
how open we are to trying newthings. People are so dependent
on the environment that they'rein to figure this stuff out, and
children are people, so they dothis too. And so Holly goes a
step further to talk a bit abouthow CMU students should
anticipate showing up in thespace, how they should take
ownership of setting the tone.
And as most of these CMUundergrads plan to be future
(02:09):
educators, we love howintentional Holly is about
building the ownership for them.
Teaching with intentionality iswhere it's at. Good teaching and
great classrooms don't happen byaccident. In today's episode of
teach wonder, we're continuingthis conversation about agency,
and we're talking about justthis, what we do before students
walk in the door. In our lastepisode, we introduced why
(02:31):
agency matters in education, aswell as talking about our own
information and personaldefinitions when it comes to
this, this time, we're focusingon vibes, the environment and
the setup. How do these thingsencourage or discourage agency,
and what are the consequencespositive and negative of this?
We talk about examples from themakerspace and our own teaching
and Julie's volunteer work at906 adventure team, which is a
(02:54):
group that gets students outmountain biking at a pretty
young age. We focus on threemain aspects today, the physical
space, the routines and what weintentionally leave out. Here's
our conversation.
Unknown (03:16):
Yeah, so I think we've spent a lot of time in the
makerspace thinking about and wehaven't changed things
drastically recently, but overthe years, there's times that we
did change things prettydrastically when we really
wanted to think about studentsand student agency for making so
I'd like to consider how tospace and the placement of
(03:39):
materials encourage ordiscourage agency. Over the
years, we've thought aboutfamily makes especially that
way, right? How can we when afamily comes to our space, how
can everybody sort of be on thesort of level playing field as a
maker, regardless of whetherthey're the adult or parent or
the child in this situation? SoI think that also provides us
(04:02):
with some really solid examplesof how we've set up both the
space and the sort of directionsin such a way that everybody has
access.
Ashley O'Neil (04:14):
I think I want to break the rules, though, and
start by talking about anexample of why the why
environment matters by sharing astory from my own classroom and
how I took away student agency.
And it was not, not that there'sanyone's fault. I was like
putting something on thestudents, but was really the
space wasn't working for us. Andinstead of making a space
(04:35):
adjustment, I made a studentindependence adjustment. And if
I could go back, I would changeit. So when I was in the
resource room, I taught in afourth and fifth grade resource
room, I had these bins. I hadthis shelf that was, like,
esthetically, was the perfectshelf to put these bins on. They
fit just so and they were at eyelevel for the students, or,
like, reaching level, and I hadeveryone's name on them, and it
(04:57):
was where they're in. Pendantwork was so if I was working in
small groups and they came in,they could go grab their bin and
do the activity in there. And Ithought I was clever, because
the bin was big enough to fitmanipulatives and worksheets and
whatever. And I didn't thinkabout the fact that that cubby
was built into the wall and wasright in front of the door. And
(05:17):
so it was always a traffic jam.
And this first time I hadstudents do this, it was a
traffic disaster. Kids werecoming in. All the kids were
clogged, waiting to get theirbins they couldn't access right
away, right? And so my parabolaintervened, and was like, hey,
you need to, you know, stoptalking, stop talking to each
other. Go sit down. And then shejust started, like, passing out
(05:39):
their bins to them. And so forlike, a solid month, that was
their new routine, where insteadof them being able to go get
their own bin, we took that awayand because they couldn't,
quote, unquote, handle it, andmy ParaPRO passed it out. Well,
after some reflection, Irealized that that wasn't quite
true. So instead of using thepretty shelf I wanted, I spread
(05:59):
their bins around the room. Sothree were in the front, three
were in the back, two were offto the side, whatever. And
magically, the bins work superwell, and my students were able
to go get them of their own freewill, when they were ready, when
they needed them, they could putthem away. And so the problem
was not the student's ability todo that independently. The
problem was not the task athand. The problem was like the
(06:20):
environment just wasn't set up,and the traffic jam was there.
And by taking that away, I couldhave fixed the environment. But
instead I tried to, like changeto children's behavior. And I
think about examples like theall the time in my classroom,
where my setup of thingsprobably caused issues. And
instead I was like, well, thekids aren't handling it. I'm
just going to back off and I'mgoing to do it for them, or I'm
(06:42):
going to add more structure whensometimes the environment could
change it. And we've got somereally great examples of how we
do that in the makerspace, I
Unknown (06:49):
think, like, you can't always see that until you try
it, either, right? Like we'vetried things that could have and
should have maybe worked in themakerspace and just didn't and
had to rearrange how we hadaccessibility. But I don't know
you know how I think sometimesyou have to try it before you
realize that, and then, like yousay, reflect on it for yourself.
(07:13):
Some things that continue towork for us are putting things
in clear plastic, like largejars. It doesn't really matter
that they're large, but sostudents can that's on a shelf
where students can access andthey can see what's in the jar,
right? They can see that there'sbuttons here, or they can see
(07:36):
that there's quirks here, andeasily access them. So I think
that's something that has workedfor us from the start. That's
something that we haven'tchanged, something we have
changed any number of times, butnot recently, is not the
accessibility of things. We'vealways tried to make the
materials that we want studentsto use to prototype be
(07:57):
accessible. That's always beenon the forefront of our mind, I
feel like, but the way in whichwe organize them and the way in
which we make them accessible,so that students can a, both
take them when they need them,but also B, put them back where
they got them from when they nolonger need them, like those
two, that's been a tension attimes, and I think That seems to
(08:20):
have a pretty good system rightnow. So just for the sake of
imagery on this podcast,everything in the makerspace
that we want students to havedirect access to for prototyping
is at their level, at theirheight, and marked with what it
(08:40):
is not, not that I'm saying thatstudents always read what's in
the bins, but also for us, forour sakes anyway, and then
easily accessible, right? Sothey don't have to ask us for
scissors or glue sticks orrulers or pencils, like those
things are, just please go, takethem when you need them, and use
them, right for the as the toolis intended?
Ashley O'Neil (09:05):
Yeah, and I think we also think about categories,
because I I agree with you, likeour quick, fast rule is, if you
can see it, if it's open, youcan use it. If it's in a closed
container or closed behind aclosed door, ask first, right?
And that's a really fast rulethat we can give students and
they can quickly kind of own,but we also have these broad
(09:26):
categories when it comes toputting things back right. Like
most of our prototyping,recycled materials are in one
space. Most of our officesupplies that you would think of
like pencils, scissors, gluesticks, that type of thing, is
in a completely other space. Andwe can kind of point that out to
students to say, if you'relooking for something that you
can build with, it's over here.
If you're looking for somethingto embellish that build, whether
(09:48):
it's drawing on it or cutting itor changing the shape, it's
going to be over here. If you'relooking for adhesives, ways to
attach things, they're up here.
And so by kind of orienting or.
Orienting them and having thosebig categories that they can
understand. It helps them thinkabout where things are. Because
you're right. We don't often getkids who will read every single
label on every single container.
(10:11):
But if you say, they say, Whereare the scissors? And you can
look at them and say, Okay,where are the things that you
would need to where are theoffice supplies, type things, or
the school supplies things?
They're like, oh yeah. Andthey'll walk over there and
they'll know where those binsare. It also helps with the
adults in our space, since wehave so many parents and new
teachers and chaperones, kind ofwalking through the faster we
can get them to feel comfortableand like they don't have to ask
(10:34):
where everything is, the fasterthey kind of have that sense of
agency and can move through theroom easily.
Unknown (10:44):
And then I think, even for things like, you know, they
can access the electricity bypulling down the cable from the
ceiling. Right? Most kids canmanage that, unless they're
simply, like, too short to reachit, and then they have to ask an
adult for help, but most kidscan manage that and plugging in
a glue gun at the table, andthen, you know, maintaining
(11:07):
their, I mean, cold hot glueguns for whatever that's worth,
but also, like sort ofmaintaining their safety with
that type of a tool, right?
Because they've pulled down theelectricity, and they've plugged
in the hot glue gun, and they'reaware of where it is, and they
can share one at a table and andthings like that. I think really
(11:27):
are empowering for them. As amaker like we didn't tell them
you only have access to ducttape, nope. Here's your options
of adhesives, right? If you needhelp plugging in a hot glue gun
let us know. But otherwise, thisis how it works. And so now,
once they're familiar with thatand that sort of routine, they
(11:49):
have the ability to go ahead anddo that for themselves,
Ashley O'Neil (11:56):
just to jump in and clarify. So in addition to
general supplies, cardboard,tape, straw, paper, glue,
pencils. We do have some moreindustrial options in the
makerspace that you probablywouldn't find in your typical
classroom, namely, we havedrills, hand saws, wire cutters,
pliers, ad printer, a lasercutter, a sublimation printer,
and some other more intensecutting tools. Here's how we
(12:18):
think about giving studentsaccess to those materials with
safety in mind.
Unknown (12:23):
So we do have some parameters in place, like those
tools can be utilized and can beaccessible. But also we've sort
of set it up where we do havesome stop gap measures for
things. And
Ashley O'Neil (12:38):
again, I think we're using this space as that
stop, rather than like us as theperson in charge, right? Like
naturally, the tools are therebecause they are available for
kids to use, but we know thattension between safety and their
enthusiasm does matter. And soby making the batteries
unavailable, they can go grab adrill. They can see what it
(12:58):
looks like. They can see thebits that are there. And then
when they come ask for the thebattery, it allows us the pause
to say, okay, yeah, let's getthe space set up so we can make
that happen, by the way. Whatare you happening? What are you
looking to drill? Can you tellme about what you're making, and
we can learn a little bit aboutwhat they're doing. And they're
hearing a yes all along the way,but there's this natural pause
(13:18):
where they've got to stop andkind of share what it is they're
doing. Where do they want it todrill? Okay, when we when we
drill something, we typicallymark it. Can you put a mark on
there for me while I get theclamp kind of set up, and then
we're doing it with them. So itkeeps us from the safety concern
of 15 kids drilling at the sametime. But then it also puts
those natural pauses in to makethose kids kind of think through
their ideas, reflect on whatthey're doing, not just drill
(13:41):
for the sake of drilling, whichis sometimes Okay, and then we
can show them the safe way to doit, but we're not having to say
no 1000 times, right? We can sayyes a lot, but it slows down the
yeses,
Unknown (13:53):
right? I think the other thing having some things
behind closed doors does for usis, again, it allows us to ask
some questions, right? As youmentioned about, yeah, that's
great. That's a great idea. Whatare you going to do with this?
But also, like, Sure, use allthe cardboard you want that's
out and freely available, right?
But maybe the lights andbatteries and motors aren't, uh,
(14:14):
aren't quite a free for all.
They're not just quite as asdisposable as some of the
recycled materials. So we wantto pay attention to using things
in a responsible manner, notjust from safety standpoint, but
also from a like just a carbonfootprint sort of standpoint,
(14:35):
right? Like we're not justthrowing things away in the
makerspace, maybe we'rereutilizing them, or maybe we're
being a little bit thoughtfulabout how we use them to begin
with, so that we're using themin a sustainable manner, or so
that other students have anopportunity to also use these
things. So I think those twothings go hand in hand, right?
And we don't, again, we don'tneed to say that like I want you
(14:57):
to use this in a sustainablemanner, but. Also, sure just
tell me about how you're usingit. And yeah, of course you can
do that. But let's show me whatthis is going to look like my
Ashley O'Neil (15:08):
example. When I thought about that stewardship
example, like one of our biggesttensions, I think we've talked
about safety, and we talk aboutconsumption and thoughtful
consumption of materials. And sowe have cool materials. And for
me, the one that comes to mindall the time is copper tape. We
have copper tape, which isexpensive, and it's a it's a
limited like it's a finiteresource, and it's meant for
circuits. It's meant to makecircuits. And so if you don't
(15:31):
know what it is, how expensiveit is, what its purpose is,
you're tempted to like wallpaperthe entire inside of your
prototype dog kennel, becauseit's shiny and pretty, right?
And that is completelyreasonable for a fourth grader
to think, but we're notinstilling great stewardship if
we just say yes, and we're notin teaching any agent or
allowing for any agency if wejust say no and hide it. Never
(15:52):
get it out, right? So some ofthat technical stuff is hidden
away, and then we label thatcabinet circuitry. So if we have
a kid who says, you know, Iwould like to light up my dog
kennel? Is there a way I can dothat? We can say, Sure, let's
take a look at the supplies wehave in here. We've got this
tape. It's shiny, but itspurpose is that it's conductive.
We're going to get a small pieceout. Here's what you need. Can
(16:13):
you figure out how to make acircuit using these supplies? If
I explain what they do, right?
So again, we're removing thatneed of like constantly saying,
No, you can't have that. No,that's too much. No, we're not
going to do that. And instead,you put in the position to say,
yes, let me show you how to dothis thoughtfully, which, again,
I think the more times a studentcan hear like, yes, let me show
you how is another way toinstill their confidence, their
(16:34):
sense of place here, and thatlike, I can do this and I'm
independent. I look back at ourquestions, one of the other
things we talked about was, sohow we set up the environment,
and you brought up the familyevents. And I think one way that
we do that, that I thinkteachers, it translates well to
the classroom, is just how wethat we set up the space, right?
So having tables and clustersencourages a family to sit
(16:55):
around those clusters, havingkind of some simple directions
up on the board and invitationkind of encourages them to
discuss those questions witheach other, to get started with
materials that are at theirspace. When people come and ask
us a question, we often havethem go get the thing
themselves, because then theylearn where things are on their
own. And we try to be reallymindful to say like we're not
here providing some sort oftutorial for you. Another thing
(17:17):
I think about when we set up ourenvironment, though, is routine.
And routine is a tricky one,because routine gives students a
sense of autonomy, because theyknow what to expect. When they
know what to anticipate. Theyknow kind of what's coming. It
frees up their capacity tolearn. But I think that we try
to strike this balance betweenflexible and rigid, because if
(17:40):
routine doesn't take intoaccount what students
perspectives are, then that'sthe opposite of agentic, right?
So if the schedule is so rigidthat students have to constantly
stop what they're doing in themiddle of everything, because
we're all moving on, thatthere's no freedom for them to
make a choice within that or toadvocate for themselves, right?
So in our space, we may pulleveryone together and say, Okay,
(18:01):
this is the next step in thetask, but we never say, like,
you have to be done with whatyou are doing and move on to
where I am right now, right likewe're gonna pause and kind of
share things with you, but youget to finish up what you're
working on. And so when studentsget to finish their task, or to
kind of choose some of thetiming, or the the order that
they do things, or if they feellike they're the facilitator of
(18:24):
the adult is kind of hearingtheir input, right? Like we're
constantly adjusting our timeframe based on what the flow is
of the students, that I thinkreally helps them build their
sense of their autonomy. Soroutine, yes, is important, but
it's almost how you implementthat routine and how flexible or
responsive you are to thestudents, I think that, for me,
feels like either building up orkind of taking away some of
(18:48):
their agency. Yeah,
Unknown (18:51):
I agree. I was thinking routine was the other half of
that sort of space considerationas well, and I was trying to
think about all the differentways that we've done family
makes over the years, because Ithink that is a program that
we've hung on to, but it haschanged considerably. We used to
(19:12):
have just kind of like a makeand take right where everybody
got the same sort of directions,and although they might be open
ended, everyone was kind ofdoing the same thing, and now
we've really come full circle,and it's much more open make,
and there's a large number ofmaterials and tools available on
(19:33):
a Saturday morning, but we giveVery few directions even well
sometimes because the peopleusing the tools are more
advanced than the person givingthe directions, which is totally
fine right in the makerspace,because everybody should feel
like they're an expert, or thatthey've got some skills that are
(19:56):
of value there, and then othertimes, just. Because there's too
many different sort of pulls onour attention, right? Like,
here's the iPad and here's theapp, and, you know, there might
be a YouTube video that can helpyou out, but otherwise, like,
Here you go. I mean, sometimesthat's really the constraint is
(20:18):
how much bandwidth you have forhow many people that you're
assisting, and so then parentsand kids sort of are having to
figure it out together. Also, Iwas going to say that I think
the other thing that we'rereally intentional with on this
family makes is, besidesclustering tables, as if we have
(20:39):
robots available, there's somedesignated space to sort of like
go do those robots that you'renot underfoot of the other
people, right? And I think also,now that we've sort of expanded
some of our spaces, from the tothe Green Screen Room and the
marble run wall like that, alsosort of spreads people out and
(21:02):
allows some agency in terms ofwhat your sort of interests are.
And we didn't always have thoseadditional spaces available the
way that we do now, when
Ashley O'Neil (21:11):
I was thinking about this question ahead of
time and I was thinking aboutroutines, I think a lot about
Reggio Emilia when it because Ithink that that kind of idea of
setting up a classroom is reallythoughtful and mindful about how
an invitation can send the sameinformation that maybe an
instructor could give right. Sohow can I provide what the
expectations or the materialsare without me being physically
(21:34):
present? But I also think it ishow you approach what you want
your space to feel like. And sofor one of the examples that I
thought of when I was thinkingabout this was, um, how would
teams provide familiarity? Andthe difference between helping
like someone you know reallywell, a best friend or a family
member cook dinner, versus likea new acquaintance in their
kitchen? Right? So at your bestfriend's house, you know where
(21:57):
things are, you know to not usethe front door, because everyone
uses the garage, and you'regonna drop your shoes in the
closet. You know where theutensils are, so you can start
chopping, and you can pull stuffout of the pantry without having
to ask, because you'recomfortable there, right? You
know when they eat. So you knowwhen to get there. So you can
help make dinner, and you canbanter with your friend while
you're doing it. You know thattheir kid like doesn't like
(22:17):
sauce on their pasta, so youknow to not mix it all together,
because there's just things thatyou know that kind of grow with
that familiarity over time, andit makes you feel like you're a
part of that rhythm and you cancontribute, and you're probably
a lot more productive andcleaning up and moving around
and helping put things away,because you know that space and
it feels comfortable to you,versus the new acquaintance,
(22:38):
right? You're having to interactwith questions to ask, where
things go, you're going tofollow their lead kind of just
doing, like, just what you'veasked me to do, or you're going
to have to ask a bunch ofquestions about where to put
stuff and how to do things. Iwould probably tend to be, like,
overly tidy, where that lookedlike a kitchen slob, and I'd be
less participatory. So when Ithink about our family events, I
think about that right, like,how can we when people ask us
(23:01):
where things are, how can we doit in a way that encourages them
to say, like, this is your placetoo? How can we do it in a way
so that they end up knowingwhere things are in the future
so they feel comfortable justgrabbing it for themselves? They
feel that kind of familiarityand ease together. And when I
think about like that, that longterm goal of like, we want them
to feel the same level ofcomfort that I would a kitchen
(23:21):
of my friend's house that helpsme with how I answer questions
and how I set things out and howI share information. Because my
ultimate goal is not that thisfeels like a classroom and that
I feel like your teacher all thetime. I want to make myself
redundant, because you're justso comfortable in this space
that you can move through itwith ease, and I'm here if you
(23:42):
need me, and you can rely onthat, but I don't have to direct
you. And
Unknown (23:46):
we've really seen that this last year with our the big
changes that we made to familymake, and it's, I think, really
exciting and much more fun interms of facilitating a program
when we can turn around and sayto a student who's familiar with
the app or familiar with thetool or familiar with the
(24:07):
materials, right? Can you helpso and so? And now we've had a
student who doesn't matter whatage they are helping somebody
else, another maker who doesn'tmatter what age they are. So
we've sort of like leveled theplaying field with adults and
students, and we've seen that anumber of times, I think,
recently, with people who comeoften are willing to sort of
(24:31):
take some ownership over boththe space and the routines, and
they know where those toolsexist, and they know where to Go
get or if they don't, they knowwho to ask, and as you said,
sort of how to ask it like youknow that we're your supports.
And I think that's true withalso true, although the ages are
(24:54):
much more standardized at thecollege make, but they sort of
have. There's a number ofcollege students who have sort
of decided that that really istheir place to be on a
weeknight, right? And they'remore than willing to become an
expert, and I'm putting expertin quotation marks, just for the
(25:15):
sake of our podcast listeners,but to have some familiarity
with tools or stuff, right? Andhelp others out?
Ashley O'Neil (25:24):
Yeah. And I think that that gets back at another
theme about when I think aboutagency. So there's the
intentional setup, there's theestablishing and, like,
flexibility of routines, andthen it's the things that we
don't do, right? Like, it's theabsence, and I think of absence
of words and absence of space.
So a preschool example. We havethis younger homeschool group
that we've been working with,I've been working with, and it's
(25:44):
been a project of mine this lastyear. And we converted these old
office kind of this open officespace so it's relatively open.
There's some built in cabinets.
There's a counter. We have a mixof tables in the room, and we've
got some open company shelvesthat have materials and toys
that are always availablebecause of that rule, like, if
you can see it, you can use it,but then off in the corner we
have this, like it used to havedesks there, but they were
(26:06):
pulled out, so it's just emptywall space. And there's a gym
map, and that is it right. Thewalls are empty. And if you walk
into this space, it probablylooks a little too empty. Maybe
under curated would be the rightword. And I think when we were
making that space, a lot of myfellow teammates, with great
intentions were like, we couldput this here, we could put this
here, we could put this here.
Why don't we fill it with this?
You know, are you sure you don'twant to put this here? And I
(26:29):
really didn't, and I kind ofsaid no, and that is the spot
that gets used most often bystudents, and is the least it is
very underwhelming to look atthat Matt is sometimes used to
get out energy. It's very oftenthe spot that kids gravitate to
to work, and that blank wall istransformed into flashlights.
It's used by the overhead.
They've taped papers on the walland put cardboard on it for
(26:50):
projects. So it's intentionallyvacant. It's intentionally empty
because it's a physical spotwhere I've tried to make room
for students, where they canhear a Yes, right? Like, yeah,
you can make there, yeah, youcan put that up there because
it's not already being used forsomething else. And I think that
crosses over to where and wherein your classroom, whether it's
your planning or your activity.
(27:13):
Have you left space for studentsto fill it, right? Or have you
decided everything all the waythrough and they're just moving
through your decisions. I thinkhow you approach that, whether
it's physical or, like I said,activity decisions, I think that
makes a big difference in yourclassroom.
Unknown (27:32):
That sort of reminds me of something that which we can't
easily do, but it maybe doeshappen in two locations for us,
but classrooms in which teachersor students are able to leave
ongoing projects up and goingand the agency that that gives
kids to add to it and to iterateit, rather than starting over.
(27:55):
And I'm thinking of I firstheard that suggestion from a
teacher at the CD LL, the childdevelopment learning lab on
campus, right, where they wouldleave up the train set or leave
up the whatever the kids weredoing with the cars, right? We
don't have a lot of spaces, justbecause we have a lot of
turnover and the groups thatcome to our space. But the
(28:17):
marble run wall is one example,and the LEGO wall is another so
if, if a child doesn't changesome other child's Marble Run or
Lego creativity, right, thenthat would stay up and be able
to be added to or modified. Andwe often don't remove things
(28:38):
from the LEGO wall for for greatperiods of time. But that's
another way in which kids wouldhave agency over simply, rather
than having to start over,right? They have a way to just
sort of keep modifying or keepiterating or keep developing or
keep creating. Yeah,
Ashley O'Neil (28:53):
and I think to go along with that, I think that
the what I'm hearing you say isreally about honoring what kids
are doing and leaving space forthat. And I was thinking about,
when we're in the makerspacedirecting something, it is often
that you'll see one of us, thisis my favorite thing to do. So
(29:14):
I'll say myself, I would farrather go to every group that's
working and give the samedirection eight times, then stop
everybody and gather everyonetogether and give the set of
directions once, right? So howcan we get them moving and doing
as quickly as possible? Andthen, how can we keep their
threat of thought going andhonor what they're working on?
(29:34):
So giving that short kind ofhuddled chat interspersed
between work time versus thatlong oratory, and also it's so
much less disruptive and so muchmore meaningful to them. If I
can walk over see what they'redoing, let them keep working and
talk at their volume, ratherthan yelling and stopping
everyone, making them put downthe thing that they're working
on, I'm treating their time likeit's as valuable as mine, right?
(29:56):
And the thing I have to say, isapplicable to what you're doing,
so much so that. Keep doing it,but then listen to me while
we're chatting, and let me hearabout what you've got going on.
And so I know that can feel lessefficient, but I would argue
that stopping everybody andwaiting for them and having them
clean up their supplies so youcan share like a direction, only
to have them go back to thework. It takes a lot of time as
(30:16):
well. It's just a differentamount of time, if that makes
sense.
Unknown (30:19):
Yeah, I think that does make good sense, and I've seen
you do that. You do that quitewell. Or you walk, you know,
lean down at the table, get downat their level and give. And I
think it feels personal to kidstoo, right? They're listening.
You're right there at theirlevel, and they're you're
talking to them personally,rather talk, rather than giving
a direction that applies to thewhole group. Okay? Yes, you
(30:43):
know, I like to make bridgesbetween the group I volunteer
with, which is 906 adventureteam, the Midland chapter, or
the Midland area adventure team.
And I always find it sofascinating when we have things
that work really well at thislike, relatively informal biking
group with kids, and they worklike I when I can see the
(31:06):
crossover to education, I in myhead. I find that fascinating.
So sorry, listeners. If youdon't find that fascinating for
just a half second, you're gonnalive in my brain. Um, so there's
a couple of ways that we arevery much about routines. There
are now 12 adventure teamsaround Wisconsin and Michigan,
and we all very much have thesame or very similar to the
(31:30):
same. We aim for the sameroutines right at the different
locations. So we don't have thesame kids, we don't have the
same volunteers, we don't havethe same locations, but our
routines are the same for a veryspecific reason. Reason right
number one, to give kids agency,because it's their adventure,
(31:51):
it's their bike ride. And thennumber two, of course, there's
some safety things involved, butwhen I think of a couple of
examples, one is that our wecall it base camp, our place in
which we meet, which happens tobe the Midland city. For us, it
looks exactly the same everyMonday night it's set up exactly
the same. So it doesn't matterwhat age child there is coming
(32:13):
with their bike. Our youngestare four or five. They show up
with their bike. They knowexactly where to go. They know
exactly which coach will be attheir station. They know exactly
what peers they're looking for.
They set their bike at a cone,right? They do their ABCD bike
check, and then they know thatthe next thing they're going to
(32:35):
be doing is maybe getting alittle instruction and riding,
and it's the same every singleweek. That is one last thing
that those kids have to thinkabout, right? They just show up
to do their adventure and have agood time. The routine stays the
same, and they can start theroutine on their own at the cone
(32:55):
every week. And so that's beenreally important. And I think
for anybody adult or child whogets a little bit anxious about
something new or about thingschanging, right? We take all of
that away. All of the adventureis out on the bike. It's not
about the way in which the basecamp looks or runs when things
(33:17):
that we know work in ourMakerSpace or we know work in
classrooms when they also workoutside of those classrooms, in
big, open spaces, working withkids. I just, I don't know, I
think that's really interesting.
Ashley O'Neil (33:30):
Yeah, well, and I think, like part of our goal is
that some of the things thatwe're talking about here, yes,
they employed in formal Ed andin our MakerSpace, but we do
them not because this works inthe context of our four walls or
whatever, but that these thingswork well for all children, all
people, and that's why they'reworking well for our students,
is that we're pulling onpractices that we know are
(33:52):
really successful. One of thequestions that we had talked
about sharing is how marketingand presentation of events can
support or discourage agency.
And so I think that this ismarketing. Sounds like it's a
big global conversation thatmaybe is in your classroom, but
presentation of an event or howwe set up or share, like what
(34:14):
we're about to do the launchwith a student, um, how does
that support or discourageagency? Do you have any thoughts
about that? I have many, but doyou have any thoughts about
that? I
Unknown (34:25):
was thinking about more along the lines of what you
mentioned earlier with, like theinvitation, or the way in which
directions or lack of directionsare shared. That was kind of
where my brain was going withthat, as well as, I think how we
do promote a description of anevent, potentially, but you're
(34:46):
right, that has less tie in to asort of classroom, yeah, so I'd
be interested in hearing whatyou have to say. And I'm sure
that'll generate more ideas forme too. So
Ashley O'Neil (34:57):
I thought about this, and I'll be I wanted me.
Honest and say like, this is noteasy, and it is a constant
struggle for us, right? It'ssomething that we talk about
often. From a marketingstandpoint, we have this word
stem in our name, which carriesa lot of meaning for adults,
just like math carries a lot ofmeaning for students, or history
or social studies carries a lotof meaning. So they show up with
this expectation based onassumptions for what they think
(35:19):
it's going to be about, right?
And while our stuff is verymeaningful, and I would argue
it's so important to kidslearning, they may not look like
this stereotypical academic,rigorous thing, right? There's
no one leaving here with a labsheet. And so sometimes we're
educating our communities aboutwhat it is we do do, and the
value and how what we're doingis rigorous work. It's just
rigorous in a different way. Andso I think these were the word
(35:41):
make. A lot we've learned to bereally intentional about our
language. And so we talk aboutwhat our kids are doing. So in
all of our camps and our afterschool programming, there's an
expectation that kids are doingright. They're not getting
information. You don't read thethings that we're sharing. To
think, Oh, my students going tosit here and learn from a
PowerPoint this entire time. Andwhat I love about that is that
(36:02):
working in formal Ed, ininformal Ed, for me, kind of has
given me this permission to talkto students like they're on this
equal footing with me. I'velearned so much from the
students that have come in here,and I enjoy my time with them. I
genuinely delight in theirideas. And I think that equality
kind of shows up with how wetalk about kids, how we share
(36:22):
the information, how we thinkabout giving them just the
essentials. When I was ateacher, I would give so much
extraneous information thatwasn't really pertinent to what
it is the students needed toknow or do, but I felt like I
needed to share that justbecause I was like, I don't
know. I needed to share all theinformation that was going on in
my head. And I think thinkingabout that, thinking about those
things, making it too wordy ortoo explanatory, we really get
(36:45):
at the essence of what ourprogramming is, which helps us
again with those yeses. Soagain, this is where my big
thoughts are. Sometimes I thinkI have a five year old at home,
and he asks why I think morethan any other human I've ever
met in my life, and I appreciatethat about him, but he really
makes me think about myjustification and my reasoning
for every decision that I do andin the workplace, in education,
(37:10):
I think that's really important,because sometimes, if we haven't
thought through all of that andgotten to that underlying what's
a real point of This activity,we can make kids go through
these unnecessary hoops thatmaybe lose their engagement or
take away their feeling ofagency, right? But if my point
of this activity is really tohave them, I don't know
(37:30):
understand the transfer ofenergy, does it really matter if
they do it on that worksheet ina specific way? Does it really
matter if they do this or thisfirst, right? Like, if I really
understand my why, I can makereally good decisions when
students ask to do things in adifferent way, which gives them
back some of that ownership,right? Whereas, if I'm just like
(37:50):
walking through my lesson,because this is what I'm
supposed to do, and I haven'tthought it out, and I haven't
gotten to the essentials, Iprobably will be less likely to
give them freedom to move,because I haven't worked that
all out in my own head. Doesthat make sense?
Unknown (38:05):
Yeah, I think that makes good sense. And I think as
adults, we often don't, don'tthink about the the why, right?
We don't ask ourselves thatprobably often enough to think
about, why am I asking them todo this? And does it really
matter if they do it this way?
Is that, is that a a nonnegotiable in this sense,
Ashley O'Neil (38:29):
where is the investment of energy and
resources when you encourageagency and planning and events?
So we're spending this, I don'tknow how many to be determined,
number of episodes, but a decentchunk of episodes this semester
is really us diving into agencyand how we do that, and all the
related practices that go alongwith it. And one of them is,
where is the investment ofenergy and resources? Because we
(38:51):
hear all the time, teachers arebusy, they have a lot going on,
and that that is all true.
Everybody's busy and has a lotgoing on. And when we say
something sounds like it's goingto be more or an additional ask
that can already set people upto feel exhausting. So where do
you see the investment of energyand resources when you start
thinking about agency first,when you're planning an event or
an activity?
Unknown (39:15):
I think I see all of the investment up front, right?
It's all in the planning,because although staff, we need
to be present for the event,when we plan to put the students
(39:35):
or the families on equal footingwith us. All of that, I feel
like all that is conversationsthat we have up front. All of
that is what's worked. Why arewe doing it? And then we set the
space up and determine at theevent, right? What do we need to
(39:57):
do differently next time, sothat we get even further? Along
that road of people feeling likethis is their space and they're
comfortable and they can utilizethe tools in the way that they
want to use the tools. I thinkof that I was a high school
science teacher, so that allcomes natural to me in terms of
setting up the lab in advanceand sort of standing back right,
(40:19):
or setting up the inquiry inadvance and sort of standing
back, yeah, that takes someenergy, and that takes some
energy. It takes someforethought. It takes some being
clear about your reasons andclear about your materials, and
clear about how the materialscan and cannot be used, being
clear about your constraints andyour time and your number of
(40:41):
people who can have access tothe things at once, right? And
where those people are going tobe in the space, all of that, I
feel like is is up front, whichallows us just to at an event,
really kind of facilitate,really, kind of stand back and
enjoy the program and enjoy theparticipants and not have to
(41:05):
worry about what we're going tosay next, or where we're going
to stand next, or what are thestudents going to be doing while
we they wait for our nextdirection. That's all an
investment in the time rightduring the that we don't
necessarily have,
Ashley O'Neil (41:21):
yeah, I think my thoughts are very similar. I
spend a decent amount of timethinking about what that the
essential point is of ouractivity, like, why are people
really here? What is the thing Iwant? Maybe less with our family
events, because those are soopen ended, but with a preschool
event, like, Hey, this is, thisis the essential thing for me,
(41:42):
so that I'm prepared to think,and then I spend a fair amount
of time thinking prettydivergently, like where all the
different ways that students maytake this, where all the
different pathways that theymight go. So if there is a tool
or a resource or something Ineed to have in my back pocket,
I have that available, and I'mnot caught off guard. But it
also helps me really thinkflexibly about the activity and
(42:02):
feel creative, so that when theycome in, and if they're kind of
stagnant or stuck, I know someplaces that I could see things
going and I can offer that inthe moment, which is, I think,
pretty helpful for us. So Ispend a whole lot less time
thinking about what it is I'mactually teaching. It's very
unlike direct instruction forme, I may spend a little bit of
(42:23):
time thinking about mydirections, so I'm saying as
little as possible, and I'msaying it in the most, most
efficient way possible, becauseI know that people's attention
spans get lost the longer Italk, right? But then, yeah,
when they're here, I'm spendingmy time being responsive, kind
of watching, doing a lot ofobserving. Of what are people
doing? What are they interestedin? What are some opportunities
(42:44):
that we could, like, have aconversation or learn a little
bit from that? Or how could Imaybe encourage them to use a
tool to try something in a newway? So it's more work upfront,
but a lot less work during thattime. I'm no, we're not cruise
directors here, right? So we'renot orchestrating every five
minutes, pivoting to the newactivity, which is really
refreshing.
(43:13):
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. You can find links
in our show notes, as well as afull transcript in our next
episode. We're talking aboutsomething that starts before
students walk in the door, andmust be a continuous and
intentional mindset foreducators. Tune in next time to
hear all about it. You
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!