January 23, 2024 • 18 mins
We wrap up our assessment series by talking with Nicole Hagle. Nicole shares her strategies for looking at proficiencies instead of points. We talk about what happens when students do not understand the grading system and what we can do to help.
Other Episodes on Assessment:
Healthy Grading Practices: Perspectives from a Secondary Teacher
Assessment in Elementary
Assessing Multiple Grades and Skills
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Episode Transcript
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Nicole (00:00):
When classroom teachers don't make grades meaningful
(00:02):
when grades are telling parentsand students what they know,
then we run into these problemswhere they don't know that they
need help.
Julie Cunningham (00:11):
Okay, now we're recording Welcome to teach
Ashley O'Neil (00:18):
on podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neil
Julie Cunningham (00:28):
and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:35):
We've been covering a topic here on Teach
Wonder for the past fewepisodes. And honestly, I was
avoiding it. If you've listenedto this series, I may have
mentioned this once or twice orthree times. And one of the
reasons that I did avoid it froma personal standpoint was
because I was worried it woulddevolve into a conversation
without a solution or a way out.
It's a topic that has a lot ofdifficulties, and it's hard to
(00:56):
sometimes see thoseopportunities inside of it. And
it's also a topic that means alot of things. Assessments
encompasses formal and informalstandardized date testing
district required assessments,classroom check ins, school
report cards, and each of thoseassessments have a different
intent and set of rules. Andteachers have varying degrees of
control over all of them. Butthroughout this series, I've
(01:20):
been proven so wrong, and I'mpretty delighted about it. Our
guests have taken this topic andhelped me see the opportunities
and purposes with a little moreclarity. And they've offered
perspectives and ideas that havechallenged but I think this
week, our guests, Nicole bringsanother layer of perspective to
the conversation. We focus onhow and what scores communicate
to students and to families. Andwhat we can do to use grades to
paint a more accurate picture ofa student's progress, to avoid
(01:43):
miscommunication about howstudents doing at school. We had
some technical glitches with theaudio this time, but we don't
think it impacts the listeningexperience. If you find yourself
looking for it, you can see afull transcript of this podcast
episode in the link in our shownotes. Here's Nicole. Okay, so
for the benefit of ourlisteners, will you just tell us
(02:08):
a little bit about your teachingbackground, and then what you're
doing now? Yeah,
Nicole (02:12):
So I've been teaching for 17 years, I started out as a
special educator, and then movedto middle school about halfway
through. But at the middleschool for almost 10 years. I
switched to Gen Ed, the yearafter I came to the middle
school. So I've been in Gen Edsince then. And for probably six
(02:33):
years, I was teaching seventhgrade English using standards
based mastery system. And then Ihave for the last two years,
been doing the support class.
And so we have it's calledcalled ELA foundations. And so I
work with students, I'm also theMTSS data coach. And so I work
with students between generallylike the 38th and 60th
percentile, to bump them up toproficiency on the MSTEP.
(02:56):
Because there's a linking studythat says whatever they are in
NWEA, this is where they'reprojected to be on and and so as
a building, we've decided tohave this class that is like
those buckets. So that's whatI'm teaching now, which is not a
grading class. And so it's beentwo years since I've implemented
grading even we your standardsbased. I'm sorry, we do
satisfactory unsatisfactory forthe support class, which is more
(03:18):
appropriate. Absolutely.
Ashley O'Neil (03:23):
Makes sense. So you, you say you don't do
grading but you still live inthe land of assessment, because
your class is defined by NWEAand MSTEP, which are kind of the
two big ones in Michigan anyway.
Yeah,
Nicole (03:37):
yeah. And then I also then recently deal with parents
and students who are herebecause they, and when I say
their NWEA score, we actuallylook at their average over the
last four times they've takenthe test. So we don't ever like
say, Oh, you had a bad test. Butnow you get all the support. So
we look at like their average ofthe last four, so that no single
(03:58):
test can really see the rest.
And so it's frustrating when wehave parents or students who are
like, Why is my kid gettingdepressed, it got all A's and
their English classes like Well,they've never been proficient on
MSTEP or any, like no statetesting, no NWEA, they've never
hit the benchmark, they've neverbeen proficient. So that's why
we're giving them supportbecause these reliable and valid
(04:19):
assessments are telling us theyneed support. And then, so it is
really frustrating that and thisis coming from someone who's
been a classroom teacher. So Ifeel like it's fair to say, when
classroom teachers don't makegrades meaningful when grades
aren't telling parents andstudents what they know. Then we
run into these problems wherethey don't know that they need
help.
Ashley O'Neil (04:42):
And that shocker comes and you're in middle
school. And if they didn't haveyou, that shocker could come
much later in high school whenit comes to the stakes are even
higher, right? Oh,
Nicole (04:51):
Oh yeah. Yeah. And we've had when I was on the grade
level team, we've had parentsand students who would show them
you know, yes, you're student isgetting a D right now, you know,
based on the the numbers of thestandard space and everything
that we're doing. And they'relike, Oh, they've always gotten
A's and then we pull out liketheir history or their NWA
history and show them. Butthey've never been proficient.
(05:12):
And then the parents sometimesare like, Are the students like,
oh, my gosh, how did I not likewhy didn't someone tell me this
sooner? Why was I always youknow, the student who's getting
bringing in the Kleenex, andstaying after school and doing
all the things. They're gettingA's all the time, but they were
never proficient. And so someparents are thankful to know in
(05:33):
middle school is closed untilhigh school. But it is
frustrating as a, as a teacherto have to explain that when
parents get upset that I pulledthem into my support class, and
then have to explain thatthey're, even though they're
getting an A in math or English,they actually support based on
the data. Right,
Ashley O'Neil (05:54):
right, that makes sense. So you did a big
transition, both from like, thespecial educator lens to the
general educator to now you'rein the support class. So how has
that affected how you've thoughtabout change, or your teaching
over time? So like, What changeshave you made to your teaching
over time? Yeah, so
Nicole (06:12):
going from special ed to gen ed was huge. And thankfully,
that was the that was the timewhen I was introduced, the team,
I was coming on to the team thatwas moved towards standards
based. So it's kind of like thecompletion of the paint, like
the person who was willing to doit. So I really learned in my
first year, I never actuallykind of a cool thing to be able
(06:33):
to say I've never given a point.
But
Ashley O'Neil (06:37):
Nicole goes on to talk about her time and special
education and the switch togeneral education, and how it
was just a big switch overall.
But one of the biggest changeswas her mindset and how it
shifted from points toproficiencies. Yeah, that makes
sense. Can you talk a little bitor explain just a little bit for
people who don't? maybe aren'tfamiliar with standard based
grading what that looked like?
(07:00):
Yeah.
Nicole (07:00):
So the first and most important thing is that I would
always share the standard withthe students like, this is what
I'm supposed to be teaching you.
This is what it looks like to beproficient. And so then it kind
of gives them purpose forlearning, which we're always
trying to give them. So themunderstanding what we're doing
and why we're doing I'mliterally sharing the standard,
our first thing we always didwas break down the standard,
like what does this actuallymean? Because obviously, it's in
(07:22):
teacher mumbo jumbo. And so webreak it down the student
language, and then they know whythey're learning what they're
learning. And so it's literallyin my gradebook with just the
standard RL two standard RL. Andso it was just the standard in
the gradebook, no homework, no,nothing. The only thing that was
ever in the gradebook was justthe standard.
Ashley O'Neil (07:45):
So you can take this question wherever you want
to go, but what are some waysthat you're assessing your
students? And what are somechallenges to that system for
you?
Nicole (07:54):
So and again, I'm thinking back to when I was
doing the standards base. Thehardest thing was time, I think
because students aren't allready to test when you're, you
know, we all sit down test onThursday, some students might
need more time. And so time wasthe biggest thing. My tests were
never very long, because theywere very like targeted
(08:14):
standards based. So I was ableto have a number of like
refixer, who did a lot of thecommon level of, they could
level up their assessment. Andthat one would just replace the
grapefruity. For some I listento the podcast that you that is
Eric, I think
Ashley O'Neil (08:32):
podcasts that Nicole was mentioning, here is
the first in our assessmentseries. We spoke with high
school teacher, Eric Foster, andI'll link that episode in the
show notes to Nicole was sayinga lot of his work resonated with
her. And she thinks that theyprobably have similar
professional developmentliterature on their shelves. I
heard the similarities in theirconversation. So I wanted to ask
her a point of clarity. Okay,that's good to know. But it
(08:54):
wasn't. Okay. So one question Ihave that Eric and I discussed,
and I'm not sure how clearlythat came through on the
podcast, just because we had toedit it for a time. But do your
students have to performanything? Like they take the
test, they want to level up ortake the retest? Is there
something they have to do to getto that retest? So
Nicole (09:12):
that actually would be one of the differences that I
actually wrote down right hereon my notebook? That? Yes, they
do. They absolutely have to,like earn it, if you will. But
what I do is put together a menuof things that they can do to
earn that level up. So some ofthem, I mean, they could be
required to do all of theassignments that we have the
(09:33):
formative things, you know,leading up to it, that will be
one of the options. So usually,I would say pick two, and it was
a menu of like eight things. AndI would say pick two or three.
So they might do all the thingsthey might do the specific I
excel that connected, they mightcreate something entirely
different that demonstratesmastery of the content to prove
that they're ready to take thetest to show that they've
(09:53):
mastered the content. So we hada menu. I didn't want to be so
narrow because just like Erichad said, the students who need
more help are being asked to domore work. And so we kind of
left it open. So they at leasthave choice in the work that
they were doing. But they had toprove that they had done
something so that they wouldlearn and be ready to retake the
test. Because taking them overand over and over just to see if
(10:17):
you do better, that's ludicrousfor everybody. Sure.
Ashley O'Neil (10:20):
And then did you grade like that menu of things?
Right? Some of those requiredyour eyes on them. Right. So
then did you have to gradewhatever their menu things were?
Or did they come to you in a waythat was like, Alright, I did my
menu. Here's what I did you knowwhat I mean? Yeah,
Nicole (10:35):
they've had to attach evidence is what we called it.
So we talked about evidence. SoI wanted evidence of the ISL,
you know, that they took it tonine year old or whatever. If it
was an assignment that they hadto turn in, I wanted to evidence
that they had done that. And ifit wasn't assignment, I would
definitely look it over to makesure that they were
demonstrating that theyunderstood it, if they were
turning in something entirelydifferent. I mean, one of the
options was like, work with asibling or a caregiver at home,
(10:59):
and, you know, teach them how todo it, and then bring back
evidence that you worked withsomebody and taught somebody how
to how to do whatever. Andthat's great evidence that you
learned that you know, and sothey would just bring in like a
signed note from home orsomething like that, that was
chosen less frequently, becauseit's more time intensive and
involves other people. Usually,they would just make up the work
that they were missing, andcompletely I excel, but by the
(11:21):
time they do that, they reallyare learning and ready to retake
it. Sure.
Ashley O'Neil (11:25):
Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so my last
question for you is, what adviceare you would you give a pre
service teacher who is feelingoverwhelmed by assessment, and
learning what their studentsknow. So
Nicole (11:36):
I would say, ditch points from beginning like this
point to go proficiency, anddon't write everything I think
we get, we get everything wegive to a student doesn't need
to be graded, you know, whetherit's assessment, yes, especially
if you're looking for mastery.
But you don't need to gradeabsolutely everything. And the
other thing that made a bigdifference for me is grading on
a system of mastery, I couldlook at, you know, paragraph, if
(12:00):
word for it, you know, doingmain ideas and supporting
details, things like that inparagraph. When we're doing
mastery, it's only like, it'slike a four point scale is what
my team came up with. And soit's very obvious if they have
no idea what they're doing,they're progressing, or they're
not, and they're not there yet,or they're proficient but not
above, or like that top levelwould be proficient, so
(12:22):
proficient, that you could teachsomebody that we tell the kids
how to explain the differencebetween proficiency and like, a
10, you know, and so I think,going by that, not feeling like
any depict, you know, 50% 72%not having to agonize about all
that, you really could just say,you know, what, you don't really
know, or, you know, you're notthere yet, you're six. And so I
(12:44):
think grading in general becomeseasier when you're just looking
at mastery, and not tallying uppoints and counting points and
agonizing over is this onewrong? Or is this one right? You
know,
Ashley O'Neil (12:58):
did you feel like your feedback was able to be
pretty targeted than to like,I'm thinking about a written
response. If they're writingsome sort of summary, and you're
talking about main points. Youweren't also looking at their
vocab. Also, looking at thisalso, can we do that sometimes
as teachers, right, where you'relike, Oh, I wish he would be
doing this thing. But yourfeedback, then was really
targeted on the standards thatthey are working on at that
(13:19):
time?
Nicole (13:20):
Yep. Yes, absolutely.
But I could if I were targetingtwo different things, it
actually kind of became alanguage with the kids. I could
say, you know, you're an eighton this, but you're kind of just
a six on this. And they get itlike, we know that because we
use the language over and over,they would understand what it
meant to be a six on something.
It meant that they weren'tclueless, but they weren't
proficient yet.
Ashley O'Neil (13:38):
And did you find that parents once they learn the
language? We're on board?
Nicole (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Because we did correlations wecorrelated the eight to, you
know, being just proficient orpartially proficient on all
those correlations. But it iscrazy. For the kids who had
visuals. And we use, we just useit as common language. And even,
you know, asking kids like a kidwould come to me Oh, one of the
menu items that they would haveis if they had a friend who was
a 10. We call that a master.
(14:06):
Because it's mastering it meansyou're a master. So they had a
friend who they know was amaster on that quiz or whatever,
they could work with thatfriend, and then produce
evidence that they did work withthat friend if they could peer
mentor, peer tutor, and thatwould be one of the things they
can do to earn their level up.
So understanding and being Imean, obviously, grades were
capable of grades. But when theyare willing to share with each
(14:28):
other, hey, I'm an eighth, and Iwant to be attend What do you
know? So they really own thenumbers as feedback as opposed
to just I mean, what is 73%really mean? You know what I
mean? When you really think whatdoes that even mean on a test?
Hit so know what that means. Butthey know what I mean. When I
say that they're they're almostproficient, you know, that
they're progressing and just notproficient? Yeah, sure.
Ashley O'Neil (14:52):
That makes sense.
And it almost feels like you'redemystifying it a little bit for
them and then the kids who arealways good at Doing the
calculator equations becausethey figured out the game are
still going to be fine becausethe game's clear for everyone.
But then the kids who didn'tknow how to do that didn't know
the game of school don't have todo the game of school because
you're killing them in along theway. Yeah, that's awesome. All
(15:13):
right. Is there anything thatyou wanted to share that we
didn't chat about?
Nicole (15:21):
No, I think that's it. I want to I want to put together a
book list attractive to love mykids, but this there are a
number of books that, that Iknow that the other guy is
reading, that really just feedthis and they're not huge, super
cumbersome. You know, like, Iwant to do book studies. And I
want to work with people totransition into this because
(15:42):
it's, it's, it's mine, it's agame changer for a lot of
students, and a lot of parents.
And it's actually a gamechanger. As a teacher, I think
it made my life easier nothaving to grade everything. And
that you know, and reallyunderstanding, when I've got
everybody ranked by mastery inmy gradebook, then I want to
make groups that I can like,say, okay, this person has had
in the first of the five, andthey get along, and they want to
(16:03):
jack each other, and they shouldwork together.
Ashley O'Neil (16:10):
So some of my takeaways from my conversation
with Nicole, the points, thenumbers, the rubrics,
percentages, whatever you use.
They're only as meaningful ashow you communicate that to your
students. So I have three lovelykids who live with me. And those
three are quite far along intheir educational career, like
high school and college. Andthey never fail to surprise me
with how intuitive they areabout the grading games at
(16:33):
school. They know precisely howmuch their paper is worth in
merit. And how much of thatgrade is based in the points
they get for turning their paperin early points they get for
naming it the right fileconventions, points for meeting
with the professor during officehours, etc. And Nicole is
talking about these kids and howpoints can devalue that work.
But she's also talking about thekids who don't quite get the
(16:55):
game who have A's all throughelementary school and middle
school. And then they suddenlyhit a class or a test or a
moment on what they know isstripped away from how pleasant
they are in class. And what adisservice. It is for that kids
to be caught off guard by thesudden rework of the grading
system, they've gotten used tothe one that is as much about
their school skills as it isabout what they know. And while
(17:15):
school skills matter and havevalue, they don't directly
correlate to a child's abilityto balance equations or to read
complex texts. And theintentions of putting points to
habits may be rooted in goodplaces. Maybe students are more
motivated to turn in things ontime It boosts their grades,
perhaps they do practice thegood habits of learning when we
grade them on it. But mixingthat all up in the final
(17:38):
equation can lead to kidspassing significant school
milestones, without the actualskills to be successful in the
next step of their lives. Andthat is a pretty big disservice.
And on that topic ofcommunication, another thing
that struck me in thisconversation was her reminder
that at its most basic stateassessment is about
communicating what someone knowswhere they fall on the spectrum
(18:00):
of knowing and not knowing toother people invested in those
kids. So does that kid knowwhere they are and where they
can go next? Do parents know howtheir child is actually doing in
that specific content area? Andthe one thing I appreciated
about Nicole's discussion isboth how honest she is and how
kind she was about the topic.
Because we can talk about afailing grade. While using
(18:23):
strengths based language. We canbe honest about where a child is
and what the road ahead willlook like. While treating that
student with dignity andrespect. Assessment is
communication, it is not ajudgment or a value of worth.
When classroom teachers don't make grades meaningful
(00:02):
when grades are telling parentsand students what they know,
then we run into these problemswhere they don't know that they
need help.
Julie Cunningham (00:11):
Okay, now we're recording Welcome to teach
Ashley O'Neil (00:18):
on podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neil
Julie Cunningham (00:28):
and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:35):
We've been covering a topic here on Teach
Wonder for the past fewepisodes. And honestly, I was
avoiding it. If you've listenedto this series, I may have
mentioned this once or twice orthree times. And one of the
reasons that I did avoid it froma personal standpoint was
because I was worried it woulddevolve into a conversation
without a solution or a way out.
It's a topic that has a lot ofdifficulties, and it's hard to
(00:56):
sometimes see thoseopportunities inside of it. And
it's also a topic that means alot of things. Assessments
encompasses formal and informalstandardized date testing
district required assessments,classroom check ins, school
report cards, and each of thoseassessments have a different
intent and set of rules. Andteachers have varying degrees of
control over all of them. Butthroughout this series, I've
(01:20):
been proven so wrong, and I'mpretty delighted about it. Our
guests have taken this topic andhelped me see the opportunities
and purposes with a little moreclarity. And they've offered
perspectives and ideas that havechallenged but I think this
week, our guests, Nicole bringsanother layer of perspective to
the conversation. We focus onhow and what scores communicate
to students and to families. Andwhat we can do to use grades to
paint a more accurate picture ofa student's progress, to avoid
(01:43):
miscommunication about howstudents doing at school. We had
some technical glitches with theaudio this time, but we don't
think it impacts the listeningexperience. If you find yourself
looking for it, you can see afull transcript of this podcast
episode in the link in our shownotes. Here's Nicole. Okay, so
for the benefit of ourlisteners, will you just tell us
(02:08):
a little bit about your teachingbackground, and then what you're
doing now? Yeah,
Nicole (02:12):
So I've been teaching for 17 years, I started out as a
special educator, and then movedto middle school about halfway
through. But at the middleschool for almost 10 years. I
switched to Gen Ed, the yearafter I came to the middle
school. So I've been in Gen Edsince then. And for probably six
(02:33):
years, I was teaching seventhgrade English using standards
based mastery system. And then Ihave for the last two years,
been doing the support class.
And so we have it's calledcalled ELA foundations. And so I
work with students, I'm also theMTSS data coach. And so I work
with students between generallylike the 38th and 60th
percentile, to bump them up toproficiency on the MSTEP.
(02:56):
Because there's a linking studythat says whatever they are in
NWEA, this is where they'reprojected to be on and and so as
a building, we've decided tohave this class that is like
those buckets. So that's whatI'm teaching now, which is not a
grading class. And so it's beentwo years since I've implemented
grading even we your standardsbased. I'm sorry, we do
satisfactory unsatisfactory forthe support class, which is more
(03:18):
appropriate. Absolutely.
Ashley O'Neil (03:23):
Makes sense. So you, you say you don't do
grading but you still live inthe land of assessment, because
your class is defined by NWEAand MSTEP, which are kind of the
two big ones in Michigan anyway.
Yeah,
Nicole (03:37):
yeah. And then I also then recently deal with parents
and students who are herebecause they, and when I say
their NWEA score, we actuallylook at their average over the
last four times they've takenthe test. So we don't ever like
say, Oh, you had a bad test. Butnow you get all the support. So
we look at like their average ofthe last four, so that no single
(03:58):
test can really see the rest.
And so it's frustrating when wehave parents or students who are
like, Why is my kid gettingdepressed, it got all A's and
their English classes like Well,they've never been proficient on
MSTEP or any, like no statetesting, no NWEA, they've never
hit the benchmark, they've neverbeen proficient. So that's why
we're giving them supportbecause these reliable and valid
(04:19):
assessments are telling us theyneed support. And then, so it is
really frustrating that and thisis coming from someone who's
been a classroom teacher. So Ifeel like it's fair to say, when
classroom teachers don't makegrades meaningful when grades
aren't telling parents andstudents what they know. Then we
run into these problems wherethey don't know that they need
help.
Ashley O'Neil (04:42):
And that shocker comes and you're in middle
school. And if they didn't haveyou, that shocker could come
much later in high school whenit comes to the stakes are even
higher, right? Oh,
Nicole (04:51):
Oh yeah. Yeah. And we've had when I was on the grade
level team, we've had parentsand students who would show them
you know, yes, you're student isgetting a D right now, you know,
based on the the numbers of thestandard space and everything
that we're doing. And they'relike, Oh, they've always gotten
A's and then we pull out liketheir history or their NWA
history and show them. Butthey've never been proficient.
(05:12):
And then the parents sometimesare like, Are the students like,
oh, my gosh, how did I not likewhy didn't someone tell me this
sooner? Why was I always youknow, the student who's getting
bringing in the Kleenex, andstaying after school and doing
all the things. They're gettingA's all the time, but they were
never proficient. And so someparents are thankful to know in
(05:33):
middle school is closed untilhigh school. But it is
frustrating as a, as a teacherto have to explain that when
parents get upset that I pulledthem into my support class, and
then have to explain thatthey're, even though they're
getting an A in math or English,they actually support based on
the data. Right,
Ashley O'Neil (05:54):
right, that makes sense. So you did a big
transition, both from like, thespecial educator lens to the
general educator to now you'rein the support class. So how has
that affected how you've thoughtabout change, or your teaching
over time? So like, What changeshave you made to your teaching
over time? Yeah, so
Nicole (06:12):
going from special ed to gen ed was huge. And thankfully,
that was the that was the timewhen I was introduced, the team,
I was coming on to the team thatwas moved towards standards
based. So it's kind of like thecompletion of the paint, like
the person who was willing to doit. So I really learned in my
first year, I never actuallykind of a cool thing to be able
(06:33):
to say I've never given a point.
But
Ashley O'Neil (06:37):
Nicole goes on to talk about her time and special
education and the switch togeneral education, and how it
was just a big switch overall.
But one of the biggest changeswas her mindset and how it
shifted from points toproficiencies. Yeah, that makes
sense. Can you talk a little bitor explain just a little bit for
people who don't? maybe aren'tfamiliar with standard based
grading what that looked like?
(07:00):
Yeah.
Nicole (07:00):
So the first and most important thing is that I would
always share the standard withthe students like, this is what
I'm supposed to be teaching you.
This is what it looks like to beproficient. And so then it kind
of gives them purpose forlearning, which we're always
trying to give them. So themunderstanding what we're doing
and why we're doing I'mliterally sharing the standard,
our first thing we always didwas break down the standard,
like what does this actuallymean? Because obviously, it's in
(07:22):
teacher mumbo jumbo. And so webreak it down the student
language, and then they know whythey're learning what they're
learning. And so it's literallyin my gradebook with just the
standard RL two standard RL. Andso it was just the standard in
the gradebook, no homework, no,nothing. The only thing that was
ever in the gradebook was justthe standard.
Ashley O'Neil (07:45):
So you can take this question wherever you want
to go, but what are some waysthat you're assessing your
students? And what are somechallenges to that system for
you?
Nicole (07:54):
So and again, I'm thinking back to when I was
doing the standards base. Thehardest thing was time, I think
because students aren't allready to test when you're, you
know, we all sit down test onThursday, some students might
need more time. And so time wasthe biggest thing. My tests were
never very long, because theywere very like targeted
(08:14):
standards based. So I was ableto have a number of like
refixer, who did a lot of thecommon level of, they could
level up their assessment. Andthat one would just replace the
grapefruity. For some I listento the podcast that you that is
Eric, I think
Ashley O'Neil (08:32):
podcasts that Nicole was mentioning, here is
the first in our assessmentseries. We spoke with high
school teacher, Eric Foster, andI'll link that episode in the
show notes to Nicole was sayinga lot of his work resonated with
her. And she thinks that theyprobably have similar
professional developmentliterature on their shelves. I
heard the similarities in theirconversation. So I wanted to ask
her a point of clarity. Okay,that's good to know. But it
(08:54):
wasn't. Okay. So one question Ihave that Eric and I discussed,
and I'm not sure how clearlythat came through on the
podcast, just because we had toedit it for a time. But do your
students have to performanything? Like they take the
test, they want to level up ortake the retest? Is there
something they have to do to getto that retest? So
Nicole (09:12):
that actually would be one of the differences that I
actually wrote down right hereon my notebook? That? Yes, they
do. They absolutely have to,like earn it, if you will. But
what I do is put together a menuof things that they can do to
earn that level up. So some ofthem, I mean, they could be
required to do all of theassignments that we have the
(09:33):
formative things, you know,leading up to it, that will be
one of the options. So usually,I would say pick two, and it was
a menu of like eight things. AndI would say pick two or three.
So they might do all the thingsthey might do the specific I
excel that connected, they mightcreate something entirely
different that demonstratesmastery of the content to prove
that they're ready to take thetest to show that they've
(09:53):
mastered the content. So we hada menu. I didn't want to be so
narrow because just like Erichad said, the students who need
more help are being asked to domore work. And so we kind of
left it open. So they at leasthave choice in the work that
they were doing. But they had toprove that they had done
something so that they wouldlearn and be ready to retake the
test. Because taking them overand over and over just to see if
(10:17):
you do better, that's ludicrousfor everybody. Sure.
Ashley O'Neil (10:20):
And then did you grade like that menu of things?
Right? Some of those requiredyour eyes on them. Right. So
then did you have to gradewhatever their menu things were?
Or did they come to you in a waythat was like, Alright, I did my
menu. Here's what I did you knowwhat I mean? Yeah,
Nicole (10:35):
they've had to attach evidence is what we called it.
So we talked about evidence. SoI wanted evidence of the ISL,
you know, that they took it tonine year old or whatever. If it
was an assignment that they hadto turn in, I wanted to evidence
that they had done that. And ifit wasn't assignment, I would
definitely look it over to makesure that they were
demonstrating that theyunderstood it, if they were
turning in something entirelydifferent. I mean, one of the
options was like, work with asibling or a caregiver at home,
(10:59):
and, you know, teach them how todo it, and then bring back
evidence that you worked withsomebody and taught somebody how
to how to do whatever. Andthat's great evidence that you
learned that you know, and sothey would just bring in like a
signed note from home orsomething like that, that was
chosen less frequently, becauseit's more time intensive and
involves other people. Usually,they would just make up the work
that they were missing, andcompletely I excel, but by the
(11:21):
time they do that, they reallyare learning and ready to retake
it. Sure.
Ashley O'Neil (11:25):
Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so my last
question for you is, what adviceare you would you give a pre
service teacher who is feelingoverwhelmed by assessment, and
learning what their studentsknow. So
Nicole (11:36):
I would say, ditch points from beginning like this
point to go proficiency, anddon't write everything I think
we get, we get everything wegive to a student doesn't need
to be graded, you know, whetherit's assessment, yes, especially
if you're looking for mastery.
But you don't need to gradeabsolutely everything. And the
other thing that made a bigdifference for me is grading on
a system of mastery, I couldlook at, you know, paragraph, if
(12:00):
word for it, you know, doingmain ideas and supporting
details, things like that inparagraph. When we're doing
mastery, it's only like, it'slike a four point scale is what
my team came up with. And soit's very obvious if they have
no idea what they're doing,they're progressing, or they're
not, and they're not there yet,or they're proficient but not
above, or like that top levelwould be proficient, so
(12:22):
proficient, that you could teachsomebody that we tell the kids
how to explain the differencebetween proficiency and like, a
10, you know, and so I think,going by that, not feeling like
any depict, you know, 50% 72%not having to agonize about all
that, you really could just say,you know, what, you don't really
know, or, you know, you're notthere yet, you're six. And so I
(12:44):
think grading in general becomeseasier when you're just looking
at mastery, and not tallying uppoints and counting points and
agonizing over is this onewrong? Or is this one right? You
know,
Ashley O'Neil (12:58):
did you feel like your feedback was able to be
pretty targeted than to like,I'm thinking about a written
response. If they're writingsome sort of summary, and you're
talking about main points. Youweren't also looking at their
vocab. Also, looking at thisalso, can we do that sometimes
as teachers, right, where you'relike, Oh, I wish he would be
doing this thing. But yourfeedback, then was really
targeted on the standards thatthey are working on at that
(13:19):
time?
Nicole (13:20):
Yep. Yes, absolutely.
But I could if I were targetingtwo different things, it
actually kind of became alanguage with the kids. I could
say, you know, you're an eighton this, but you're kind of just
a six on this. And they get itlike, we know that because we
use the language over and over,they would understand what it
meant to be a six on something.
It meant that they weren'tclueless, but they weren't
proficient yet.
Ashley O'Neil (13:38):
And did you find that parents once they learn the
language? We're on board?
Nicole (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Because we did correlations wecorrelated the eight to, you
know, being just proficient orpartially proficient on all
those correlations. But it iscrazy. For the kids who had
visuals. And we use, we just useit as common language. And even,
you know, asking kids like a kidwould come to me Oh, one of the
menu items that they would haveis if they had a friend who was
a 10. We call that a master.
(14:06):
Because it's mastering it meansyou're a master. So they had a
friend who they know was amaster on that quiz or whatever,
they could work with thatfriend, and then produce
evidence that they did work withthat friend if they could peer
mentor, peer tutor, and thatwould be one of the things they
can do to earn their level up.
So understanding and being Imean, obviously, grades were
capable of grades. But when theyare willing to share with each
(14:28):
other, hey, I'm an eighth, and Iwant to be attend What do you
know? So they really own thenumbers as feedback as opposed
to just I mean, what is 73%really mean? You know what I
mean? When you really think whatdoes that even mean on a test?
Hit so know what that means. Butthey know what I mean. When I
say that they're they're almostproficient, you know, that
they're progressing and just notproficient? Yeah, sure.
Ashley O'Neil (14:52):
That makes sense.
And it almost feels like you'redemystifying it a little bit for
them and then the kids who arealways good at Doing the
calculator equations becausethey figured out the game are
still going to be fine becausethe game's clear for everyone.
But then the kids who didn'tknow how to do that didn't know
the game of school don't have todo the game of school because
you're killing them in along theway. Yeah, that's awesome. All
(15:13):
right. Is there anything thatyou wanted to share that we
didn't chat about?
Nicole (15:21):
No, I think that's it. I want to I want to put together a
book list attractive to love mykids, but this there are a
number of books that, that Iknow that the other guy is
reading, that really just feedthis and they're not huge, super
cumbersome. You know, like, Iwant to do book studies. And I
want to work with people totransition into this because
(15:42):
it's, it's, it's mine, it's agame changer for a lot of
students, and a lot of parents.
And it's actually a gamechanger. As a teacher, I think
it made my life easier nothaving to grade everything. And
that you know, and reallyunderstanding, when I've got
everybody ranked by mastery inmy gradebook, then I want to
make groups that I can like,say, okay, this person has had
in the first of the five, andthey get along, and they want to
(16:03):
jack each other, and they shouldwork together.
Ashley O'Neil (16:10):
So some of my takeaways from my conversation
with Nicole, the points, thenumbers, the rubrics,
percentages, whatever you use.
They're only as meaningful ashow you communicate that to your
students. So I have three lovelykids who live with me. And those
three are quite far along intheir educational career, like
high school and college. Andthey never fail to surprise me
with how intuitive they areabout the grading games at
(16:33):
school. They know precisely howmuch their paper is worth in
merit. And how much of thatgrade is based in the points
they get for turning their paperin early points they get for
naming it the right fileconventions, points for meeting
with the professor during officehours, etc. And Nicole is
talking about these kids and howpoints can devalue that work.
But she's also talking about thekids who don't quite get the
(16:55):
game who have A's all throughelementary school and middle
school. And then they suddenlyhit a class or a test or a
moment on what they know isstripped away from how pleasant
they are in class. And what adisservice. It is for that kids
to be caught off guard by thesudden rework of the grading
system, they've gotten used tothe one that is as much about
their school skills as it isabout what they know. And while
(17:15):
school skills matter and havevalue, they don't directly
correlate to a child's abilityto balance equations or to read
complex texts. And theintentions of putting points to
habits may be rooted in goodplaces. Maybe students are more
motivated to turn in things ontime It boosts their grades,
perhaps they do practice thegood habits of learning when we
grade them on it. But mixingthat all up in the final
(17:38):
equation can lead to kidspassing significant school
milestones, without the actualskills to be successful in the
next step of their lives. Andthat is a pretty big disservice.
And on that topic ofcommunication, another thing
that struck me in thisconversation was her reminder
that at its most basic stateassessment is about
communicating what someone knowswhere they fall on the spectrum
(18:00):
of knowing and not knowing toother people invested in those
kids. So does that kid knowwhere they are and where they
can go next? Do parents know howtheir child is actually doing in
that specific content area? Andthe one thing I appreciated
about Nicole's discussion isboth how honest she is and how
kind she was about the topic.
Because we can talk about afailing grade. While using
(18:23):
strengths based language. We canbe honest about where a child is
and what the road ahead willlook like. While treating that
student with dignity andrespect. Assessment is
communication, it is not ajudgment or a value of worth.
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