May 8, 2022 • 56 mins
Sarah Szuminski brings a unique blend of experience as a teacher and as a parent to this important conversation about childhood, special education, and what we want for our kids. Sarah has her master's degree in early childhood special education. She has worked in professional settings with children, teachers, parents, and therapists. As a parent, she has done the same. Parents, teachers, and adults will learn from Sarah's expertise and passion.
Sarah's Links:
Simplifying Play
Lisa Murphy On Play
Wrightslaw
Additional Links:
Disability Visibility
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Introduction (00:00):
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach
wonder podcast hosted by AshleyO'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:25):
No fancy segue in here. I'm just really excited to
share this interview whereyou've talked to teachers,
professors, students andeducators on this podcast and
we're doing that again thisweek. Our guest is Sarah
Szymanski. She has her master'sin early childhood education.
And she'll share more about herprofessional background
throughout the interview. What Ido want to talk about for a
(00:46):
minute, though, is how I foundSarah because it wasn't by
googling her credentials. Wedidn't meet at a conference, he
never talked together. Althoughthat would have been delightful.
We met as many people have metin the last few years when
they've been looking for adviceand community and support. I
(01:08):
found Sarah on the internet. SoI'm not sure if you're an adult
in 2022. If you've never thoughtinformation or community or
advice on the internet, and ifyou're a parent, during last
couple of years, particularly,you've probably leaned on your
internet resources and yourinternet community more than you
ever anticipated. I did. A fewyears ago, I was specifically
(01:30):
looking for someone who was abit further along in the early
childhood education process thanour family was at the time. And
I was looking for someone whowould give me a little bit of
magic, a magic answer a magic,schedule magic, something that
would get me out of this placeof having a lot of questions and
unknowns. And like most parents,I wasn't looking at a special
education textbook, even thoughthose are in my garage in a tote
(01:52):
somewhere. And I wasn't leadlooking at the latest research
articles, even though that'swhat I do for my job often, as a
parent, they didn't feelaccessible to me at the time.
And I was looking for somethingthat felt both relevant and
personal. And so I startedlooking at websites and
Instagrams to see what I couldfind. And I found Sarah, who is
(02:13):
a professional, and a parent anda wonderful mix of accessible
information and facts about playschemas, and relatable parenting
that she packages nicely in herwebsite and on her online
presence, whose information andan educational perspective that
I was looking for, and it wasdelivered in a way that spoke to
me both as a parent and as aprofessional. So part of this
(02:34):
interview is about childdevelopment about play
progressions and skill buildingthat happens in all children.
Much of steroids website andresources are geared toward
early childhood developmentusing nature and play schemas
and the power of independentplay. But I can tell you, there
is no expiration date on theadvice and information that
there are shares, even if youthink your your child or your
(02:55):
student has outgrown earlychildhood. The other part of
this interview is a conversationabout being a parent of a child
with a disability. It is not aconversation about that as an
identity, and it is not one thatclaims to be the experience of
all parents. But it is one thatshares how Sarah and her husband
make educational decisions.
Think about child developmentand navigate the special
education world has theiradvocates without owning her own
(03:16):
child's development. There's abeautiful weaving here how
Sarah's background as aneducation shaped and was
reshaped by her experiences as aparent. Like Sarah, I want that
on the teacher side of the tablein special education. And as a
parent, I've learned tons andhave unlearned tons and I've
relearned so many things from mychild and from therapists and
(03:38):
educators that I work with now,Sarah is one of those
professionals to me, someone whohas a deep background in child
development, who is also aparent. So if you are a parent
of a child with a disability, Ihope you hear some ideas and
mindsets that will resonate withyou. We talk IPS inclusion play
long term goals for your childas a person, and educators
whether you consider yourself inspecial education or not early
(04:01):
childhood education or not. Ihope you hear this interview and
learn from Sarah's educationalknowledge and deep love for her
daughter. This interview is onethat I really didn't want to
edit. I didn't have a way tocondense this down into a tidy
30 minutes. And once you startlistening, I think you'll see
why I didn't want you to miss aword that Sarah has to say.
Sarah Szuminski (04:31):
We can talk more once you get started at
all.
Ashley O'Neil (04:35):
So perfect. So I'm gonna kind of ask you the
first question just to kind ofkeep our frame because these are
the big topics I wanted to talkto you about. So you're in a
position where your professionalfocus kind of aligns with
parenting and do you have twoyoung daughters? Can you talk a
little bit about how or whataspects of professional or Child
(04:56):
Development kind of guide yourwork and your parenting since
there's that nice Venn diagramfor you.
Sarah Szuminski (05:01):
Yes. So I have my master's degree in early
childhood special education. AndI worked as an early childhood
special ed teacher. So I didBirth to Three home visits, and
coordinated IFSP. So coordinatedoccupational therapists and
physical therapists and speechtherapists to help children meet
(05:24):
their goals from basically whenthey got home from the hospital
with a diagnosis or with ahealth with health
complications, to help them makeprogress developmentally. So
that's what I did first out ofcollege. And since then I've
done all sorts of things I beena preschool teacher, I've ran
most recently, professionally,ran a large childcare center.
(05:49):
And I wrote all of thecurriculums, and helped do
teacher trainings to help movethe school to more play based
philosophy, versus an academicbased, early child, good hood
center. And that was all beforeI had Hazel. So that was all
just professionally. And then Ihad a prenatal diagnosis, found
(06:12):
out that my daughter would beborn with a heart defect and
with Down syndrome, and I waslike, timeout, this is what I do
for work, this isn't my life aswell. And it turns out, it is my
life as well. And so havingHazel helped me really hone in
on these things that I have beentalking about with parents and
(06:33):
with teachers, for years. Andall of a sudden, I got to see it
happen in just one child. Andwatch. All of these things I
talked about, like trusting thata child will do things when
they're ready, that actuallyhaving to sit back and think,
(06:54):
okay, I can push and push andpush my kid as much as I want.
But until they're ready untilthey're interested, no amount of
therapy, no amount of me,forcing practice over and over
is going to get her there in afaster that I've always talked
(07:15):
about following the child, wehear it all the time. When we
follow a child, you know, we tapinto their interests and their
intrinsic motivation. And all ofa sudden things are more fun.
But again, it wasn't until I wasfollowing a child meet their
milestones way later than what Iwas used to. That I realized
(07:38):
that like, following the childmeans trusting that kids have
inherent capabilities. And whenwe give them time to show us
their capabilities and theirabilities, we learned so much
from them. So that was somethingthat's like, I feel like even in
(07:58):
grad school, we talked about itall the time. And until I got to
watch it firsthand, I didn'tunderstand what a difference
that could make in my life as aparent and as an educator, and
then in my daughter's life,being able to learn that she can
trust herself to that she cantake those risks, that she can
(08:19):
be independent and guide herlearning. I really feel like
that phrase more than anythingthat trusting in your children
and in any child has reallyguided me now professionally.
And as a parent, even with mytypically developing two year
old, which is a completelydifferent ballgame. Parenting
(08:42):
her versus parenting my olderdaughter. And the other things I
just always come back to is thatfreedom of movement and the
power of play. And again, that'ssomething that informed me what
I was doing early interventionand informed me when I was
training early childhoodteachers. But again, until you
(09:05):
see a child spend six monthslearning how to go from laying
down to sitting up, you don'tunderstand how much giving them
that freedom makes a differencefor them. So I think that I've
been on a huge journey as aneducator from saying the
(09:29):
catchphrases to limping thecatchphrases and saying that
they're phrases like that for areason.
Ashley O'Neil (09:37):
Totally, oh my gosh. Julie, I promise I'll let
you speak, I promise. But thatsounds so familiar. And that
idea that I remember having Iwas a special education teacher,
gen ed teacher, and you do thesereally contained sessions that
were really controlled and andscripted and had all of these.
It was like 30 minutes right?
And then I was good and theywere on their way. And when
(09:59):
you're a parent, it's 24/7. Andyou get to see all of the
downtime in the evenings andSaturday mornings, and it's so
much more about- they get allthe credit for all the things
that they're able to do
Sarah Szuminski (10:13):
They really do,
Ashley O'Neil (10:14):
they're in their own body all the time. And so
they get these tips and supportfrom all of these other adults.
But it's got to be in their owntime, because it's it's their,
their body. It's their job.
Yeah.
Sarah Szuminski (10:26):
I worked for Hazel's first 18 months and then
stayed home. She had a wholebunch of health issues, that
meant she couldn't continuegoing to daycare, she was going
to the school that I worked at.
And so we made the tough callfor me to start staying home and
supporting her. When I firststarted staying home, I treated
every moment like a mini therapysession. And I was like, I know
(10:48):
what we're going to do. And Ihad all these goals and
objectives for like, myinteractions with her. And
that's been a big journey to forme, is shifting from a therapy
mindset. And Mama's therapist tomom being mom. I think
especially in this age of socialmedia, you know, when I first
(11:12):
started teaching, we didn't haveteacher Instagram to go to, we
didn't have Pinterest to go to.
You kind of were just doing whatyou learned from your mentor
teachers and from maybe someactivity books. And now like you
said, your pediatrician can saylike, Hey, we're worried about
this. And you can pull up 50accounts that give you ideas,
(11:33):
and strategies, and you can tryto turn every moment into a
learning opportunity. But kidsdon't really learn that way.
Like they don't approach anactivity in order to learn what
we think they should learn theapproach to explore, and to
play. And so when we as adults,as educators, or as parents can
(11:56):
step back and value that overour adult expectations, I think
so much more growth can happen.
That's been a huge shift. Forme, it probably around two and a
half was when I was like,neither of us are having any
fun. Like, this is just a lot ofwork. And this should be fun.
And a typical developing twoyear old isn't having to sit and
(12:21):
do speech flashcards but theirmom. They're not. And so what,
what would I be doing, if shewas talking, oh, we'd be going
to library storytime, oh, we'dbe playing at the park, we'd be
in the backyard. And I was doingall those things. But I was
seeing them all as opportunitiesfor me to get like learning
(12:42):
modules in or sessions in. Andthat just isn't how kids learn.
Right? Those things like yousaid, set them up for success.
Right? We can give them thetools, but they don't need to be
drilled constantly. It's just alot of unnecessary pressure on
everybody.
Ashley O'Neil (13:07):
All right, Julie.
I promise. It's your turn.
Julie Cunningham (13:09):
I guess I'm curious when you interact with
parents. Now, and probably nowas a therapist, I think you're
not in that professionally now.
Right. But when you interactwith parents, has that changed?
Has your perspective changed?
Sarah Szuminski (13:24):
Yes. Especially because when I was going to
people's homes, I was not aparent. And I don't think you
have to be a parent to be ableto do early intervention well,
but I definitely was going inwith like my bag of tricks and
fun things to do, instead ofhelping equip parents with the
(13:45):
tools they need to guide theirchildren. And I think there's
been a big shift in earlyintervention in general to a
more like giving parents toolsversus you as the therapist, or
the interventionist being thetool. But now, you know, when
people message me on Instagramand say, we just got this
(14:07):
diagnosis, or I'm reallystruggling, am I we're spending
seven hours a week get therapywith my two and a half year old
like, what I feel like thisisn't fun. I think past me would
have said, well, you need to getthose early intervention. It's
first five years is the mostimportant. The first three years
are the most important. You gotto get those hours in when you
(14:29):
can, you've got to, you know,and kids, kids with cognitive
disabilities still develop onthe same path. The window
doesn't close the door doesn'tclose at five. And the door
doesn't close at three Iwouldn't Hazel turn three. I was
like, Oh, well, it's over. It'sover. She's three now and what
(14:50):
else can I do? But that doesn'thappen. She kids continue to
learn and to play and to growand so Oh, instead of advising
parents now, oh, yeah, whateveryour insurance will cover and
whatever the state or thedistrict is offering you take
all those hours. I instead askfamilies Okay, what do you
(15:13):
value? What are your family'sgoals? What Where do you see?
What skills does your child needto fit in with your family
dynamic? Do you guys lovehiking? Do you love biking? Do
you love going to museums? Doyou? Does your whole family love
to read? Does your whole familylove to paint? And how can you
(15:35):
help your child find success andyour family find success, real,
doing those recreationstogether, versus how many hours
of speech therapy are reallygoing to help your kid learn to
put sentences together? What,six months sooner? Two months
sooner? So obviously, an earlyintervention is extremely
(15:59):
important. And I'm not sayingthat early identification and
helping parents get the helpthey need in those early years
is vital. But it's just such atiny part of someone's life. And
so again, it's kind of part ofthis journey that I've been on
away from having objectives forinteractions and saying, Okay,
(16:23):
what do we think? What do wewant to see happen in the next
two or three years? And whattools do we need to help our
child learn to get there?
Ashley O'Neil (16:34):
Totally, I, that makes so much sense. And I think
my husband and I had verysimilar conversations. And it
was finally this light bulbmoment of like, where the grown
ups, right, like who's gonnatell who's gonna tell if we go
to the park instead. And again,I feel so tremendous amount of
gratitude to the people who saton Zoom calls with us and like,
(16:56):
and made - were patient with ourdog as they were going in and
out, you know, like, they'rewonderful, wonderful therapists,
but also to recognize that thegoals are larger than graduating
high school, and the goals arelarger than going to college,
the goals are being happy andjoyful and finding joy in
whatever you're doing in yourlife. And that can start now and
(17:18):
it can be a part of yourfamily.Totally.
Sarah Szuminski (17:22):
Yeah, I always get emotional when I talk about
that aspect, because I don'tthink it's talked about often
enough for children who havedisabilities, children who have
diagnoses is that they're notjust a two or three year old,
they're going to be an adultsomeday. And so when we sit and
have very adult expectation, wehave higher behavior
(17:44):
expectations for a two or threeyear old in the speech session
than we would for a two or threeyear old, who's just living
their life, higher expectationsfor them to be able to sit and
attend, and do things that arereally, really hard for them.
And it's laying the frameworkfor a lifetime of sitting across
(18:08):
the table from an adult tellingyou what to do. And that's not
the rest of life, like, what arewe wanting to prepare children
for? And for us, in our family,it's living a full life of self
determination. And so thatstarts young, letting her choose
now what activities she wants todo, what sport she wants to play
(18:29):
and giving her the tools thatshe needs to be successful, in
her own way at what it is thatshe wants to do. She wants to
ride a two wheeler bike. Okay,how can we help her learn how to
ride a two wheeler bike, shewants to play soccer, she's
playing soccer this spring on aregular old Parks and Recreation
team. And so it's probably goingto be one of us out there on the
(18:52):
field with her running aroundwith all the five and four and
five year olds but and lettingher pick the books we read and
the way she plays and honoringthe ways that she wants to play
versus the way that I think sheshould be playing. And I think
that it's going to pave a lifeof more choice for her and an
(19:17):
ability to determine what shewants to do and not be bored and
only have to watch TV and do arec program three hours a day
when Joe transition programs andfor her when she's 26. So it's
like way big picture. But Ithink if as professionals we
(19:42):
really do want to honor play andthat's what I always come back
to to is this idea that if playis an expression of joy and an
expression of choice, and that'show young kids express
themselves and we you can makethat a priority as teachers and
(20:05):
as, as parents, or we can say myideas are more important.
Ashley O'Neil (20:12):
No, no. Yeah, yes to all of those things I was
just thinking about, you sayplay in finding joy, it really
gets back to that strength basedfocus that we like, as parents
and as educators, and I think westrive for that, but it's hard
to, to, you can talk about it.
And then sometimes it's hard tospot that in the wild and put it
into practice, right. So my sonreally loves the Mr. In his
(20:36):
bedroom has little humidifier.
So we had this huge, longconversation about the motor and
the sound that was making in theway that was working. I mean, we
played up there for an hour anda half. And I said to my
husband, I said, you know, we'vegot a lot of toys downstairs,
but this brought joy. And he, hehad a blast. And from a speech
(20:56):
side, we had all of theseconversations, right from our
fine motors that he's playingwith the little knobs and
buttons, but it was totally whathe wanted to do in that moment
instead. And so, and I get thatdoing that on a Tuesday night
with my one child, in my home isso different than a teacher
doing it in the classroom. But Istill think that there's space
(21:17):
for that shift to happen, wherewe say, Okay, what's working for
you, kid? And then how can Ifollow you.
Sarah Szuminski (21:25):
Yes, and letting Him guide the
conversation and guide what he'sinterested in. And at our house,
sometimes that looks likeplaying grocery store for hours
and hours. And we're packingwere multiple girls are very
into like packing bags and goingcamping, they like pack to go
(21:45):
different places. But itbasically means put all their
toys in whatever containers theycan find. And it's the kind of
play that makes me a littletwitchy, because I like, like,
all you're doing is piling allyour things together. But
honoring that that's how theywant to play and then coming at
it to from a developmentalstandpoint, and knowing and
(22:07):
something I share a lot on myInstagram is knowing the why
behind different play behaviors.
And children who areneurodiverse, or children who
are developmentally delayed stayin certain play patterns a lot
longer. And that can causefamilies, and teachers a lot of
frustration, it can look likeproblem behaviors, like kids who
are throwing things. For years,some kids throw things for
(22:31):
years, throw their cups off thetable, throw every toy they can
get their hands on, they'reexploring the world. They're
exploring momentum, and physicsand gravity and all of these
different things cause andeffect cause and effect on the
object cause and effect on theadults around me. Like they are
getting a lot of fulfillmentfrom that kind of exploration.
(22:52):
And we can either see it assuper annoying. Or we can see it
as scratching like thisdevelopmental itch that they
need to get this out of theirsystem. And it could still be
annoying. Like when I have tohelp my girls put two laundry
baskets of stuff that they'vepiled away like, yes, that is
(23:13):
bothersome to me. But I can alsosee that they're categorizing,
and organizing and creating apretend world and having a ton
of social interaction, whichHazel has a huge vocabulary. But
having back and forthconversations can be really
challenging. And so they can getin WH questions. Where are you
(23:36):
going? What did you pack? Whatare you wearing? Who will you
see? And if I can engage in thatway with her, versus while we're
reading a book, or while I'masking her what happened at
school during the day, which isreally tricky for her. But she
can buy through play, she canengage in those conversations,
(24:00):
because that's what she wants tobe talking about, just like you
said, with the Mr. or kids wholove cars, or kids who love
dinosaurs. And it's hard. It'shard as an adult to put yourself
back back in that world, butwhen we can make we can unlock
so much more potential and somuch more fun for our kids and
(24:21):
for us.
Ashley O'Neil (24:25):
So you've talked about I think you've talked
about in a lot of sideways ways,but a little more directly. I
think about your role as aparent is not the same as
Hazel's life. And I feel likeyou do a really great job of
advocating for her andsupporting her without owning
her identity as your own. Andthat's not easy to do. And it's
(24:47):
really important to do. So canyou talk a little bit about how
that works for you how youadvocate for her what your
mindset is, I'm sure you andyour spouse do that together.
But if you could talk a littlebit about that, that'd be great.
Sarah Szuminski (24:59):
Well, we just said I did really early on, that
our identity wasn't going to bedown syndrome. And I think that
it's really easy as parents,especially when you're living
the nitty gritty. And the trickylife of caring for a kid with
either complex medical needs,complex educational needs, are
(25:20):
just isn't what you thought waswhat your life was going to look
like, it can become really easyto make that diagnosis your
whole world. And it's been a bigjourney of growth for me,
because I found a lot of comfortin owning her diagnosis in the
(25:42):
early days, I think it helped meaccept what her diagnosis was,
and move through the stages ofgrief. You know, even though I
knew and had taught severalchildren with Down syndrome, it
still was really scary to get adiagnosis. And I think finding a
(26:04):
little bit of identity in thathelped me process all of those
feelings, and then move pastreally early on. We put up some
pretty firm social mediaboundaries about what we share
about for her medically and whatwe share about for her beyond
her just being a kid. And it's adefinitely a journey that I've
(26:29):
been on. In learning fromdisabled adults, reading books
by disabled adults, followingdisabled adults on social media,
learning more about disability,civil rights was really huge for
me, and that I am a disabilityadjacent parent, my child has a
(26:53):
disability, that's not who I am.
And that's not my community, shewill eventually have her own
community and we seek outfriendships, for her with other
children with Down syndrome justas much as we seek out inclusion
for her. And I had to break downmy own internalized ableism,
(27:14):
which is a conversation forwhole- we could talk about that
for hours. But listening todisabled adults, and centering
my daughter's experience, overmy experience, really helped me
make that move. And my missionon social media has always just
(27:34):
been to say, Hey, this is ourlife, it looks a little
different than yours. But I betin a lot of ways, it's really
similar. My kid might look alittle different than yours. But
in a lot of ways, her childhoodexperience is very similar to
your child's experience. AndI've really always wanted to
(27:54):
focus on this is what we do, youknow, this is how we play. These
are the places we go. But theseare our favorite things to do we
love going to the park, we lovegoing to the library. But this
is not who I am. If that makessense.
Ashley O'Neil (28:16):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And do you find
that that mindset of beingdisability adjacent and that
your job is to advocate for herand it's centered around her? Do
you find that that helps youwhen it comes to IEP meetings
and, and and deciding therapy isand looking at her short term
goals and long term plan?
Sarah Szuminski (28:37):
It does. I think it's going to inform us
even more as she becomes anactive participant in her
educational planning, becausethat's the goal in IEPs is to
have the individual help guidetheir planning and their
education. And it's going to beseveral years before she's
(28:58):
sitting in IEP meeting with us.
But I think that we're teachingher to be a self advocate all
the time. By listening when shesays no, by by letting her make
choices by giving her time tocommunicate what it is she likes
and what she doesn't like. byinterpreting challenges at
(29:22):
school, or things that likeagain, can be labeled as
behaviors but seeing thoseinstead as communication.
Instead of Oh, woe is me, mychild's really struggling in
this area, my life so hard, butinstead to see it as okay,
something's happening that isn'tworking for her. What is she
(29:43):
letting us know, through thesebehaviors or through these
issues she's having, and thenhow can we help her make a
change? And so I think that'sreally informed the IEP process.
And then we always come to thetable with what our long term
vision is for her life, with thecaveat that someday she's going
(30:08):
to tell us what her long termvision is. And it's probably
going to be different than whatwe're saying. But for now, our
long term vision is that she isan active member of her
community, that she has choiceover her life as an adult, that
if she chooses to pursue highereducation, or a job, or a
relationship, that she has thetools that she's gaining the
(30:31):
tools from school, to help herhave success down the road. And
a lot of times, you come to theIEP table, and they have tons of
goals for the next six monthsand the next year. And they're
so hyper focused on they can't,that it's hard to see. What
we're really working for, youknow, are not just working that
(30:55):
she can identify all 26 letters,upper and lowercase 90% of the
time, we're working that she canread bus schedule someday, you
know that she can navigate agrocery store. So I think that
we come to the table and say,Alright, this is our big goal,
what can we work on this yearthat can help us get there. And
(31:17):
having that mindset has helpedus say no to a lot as well,
there's a huge push. I talkedabout this already, but a huge
push to have your child in asmuch extra as possible with the
idea that it's going to helpthem that three hours of
(31:43):
physical therapy a week arebetter than one. And to our
speech therapy is better thanone and you should be doing in
school therapy and out of schooltherapy. And don't forget about
music therapy. And all of asudden, you're running your kid
from place to place to place andwhen you can pause and say okay,
what is our long term goal? Andhow will dictating every hour of
(32:05):
every day for her help her reachthis long term goal of being an
independent adult, because itwon't, you know, if kids aren't
given the chance to play anddetermine what they do when
they're little, it's really hardfor you to say suddenly, you're
15. And you need to start makingsome choices about what to do
(32:26):
with your time. I thought of onemore thing that I wanted to say
about this, the idea of ableismand unpacking my own ableism and
how that's informed our IEPjourney. So a big part of having
my identity not be wrapped up inmy child's disability helps me
(32:49):
not find my worth in heraccomplishments.
And it helps me accept herexactly as she is today, instead
of thinking how much better lifewill be when she can tell me
what's wrong, or when she'sreading or when she's doing XY
(33:10):
and Z. And so when I can focusexactly on who she is now and
see that she's worthy, even ifshe never does any of those
things. It helps me value herchildhood, over pushing her to
meet those milestones. And so ithelps me say, Okay, well, one
(33:32):
more hour of this therapy, orafter school tutoring, really be
enriching to her life right now,or we're playing on a soccer
team, be what needs to be ourone extra thing for these next
couple of months. Our districtis universal summer school. It's
like a summer camp and they doflip COVID thing, but it's
(33:56):
continuing on this summer. Andso we gave her the choice of
doing outpatient speech with aspeech therapist she loves or
did she want to keep going toschool for a few weeks this
summer. And she picked school,which does not surprise me. She
loves loves, loves school,sports, she's gonna get to go to
school with some of her friendsand it's at a different school.
(34:16):
But it's the same Montessoriprogram that we're already in
and I'm able to see that that ismore important that her choices
she's making now are moreimportant than me pushing her to
become what she could be in sixmonths. And that has been
another journey. Like I don'tthink that you just it's hard.
(34:44):
It's hard to change your mindsetto be like that. And it's been
because of lift listening to thelived experiences of disabled
adults and what they say therelationships were like with
their families, getting to knowadults with Down syndrome, you
know, and there are selfadvocates with Down syndrome,
(35:05):
there are public speakers withDown Syndrome and listening to
them. And valuing theirexperience over their parents
experience, which again, is kindof taboo on social media. It's
all parents talking for theirkids that have Down syndrome.
And so saying, all right, whatthis person is saying is not as
(35:26):
important as what the selfadvocate that I follow, is
saying. And again, it?
Ashley O'Neil (35:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And you're, you're great.
I hear a lot of like, and I I'vebeen trying to do this more to
is this idea of like neutrallanguage, like things are
neutral. So rather than saying,Oh, my goodness, I wish it was
this way, or I Can't BelieveIt's Not this way, or here's a
milestone, and we're back here,you're really neutral to say,
Well, I see that this ishappening. How can we problem
(35:59):
solve to move forward? What arethis, I see that there's some
skills we need to practice here,so let's practice them. And it's
so much less stressful foreveryone. But it is a little bit
of have you carving out thisspace is a Nope, we're gonna
keep it neutral. And I'm gonnakeep some of this stress away
from Hazel, away from our house,and to keep the neutral language
(36:21):
and so does that translate?
Well, when you get out into outof your bubble of your own, your
own four walls of your homedoes.
Sarah Szuminski (36:30):
We have an awesome community, we have
awesome friends who havechildren with disabilities. And
we have awesome friends who havechildren like minded friends who
have children with disabilities.
And we have more friends whosekids are typically developing, I
mean, that's just life becausenot that many people have Down
(36:50):
syndrome but and I've connectedI mean, my thing when Hazel was
little is that, okay, if Ireally want inclusion for her,
in her life inclusion starts bytaking her to the grocery store,
and showing up at librarystorytime, and showing up at
Mommy and me, music class, andjust be like, here we are.
(37:15):
You'll figure it out. We'llfigure it out. We're all
learning together. And I've metfriends by going to library
storytime. I've met peoplethrough Instagram, local
families through Instagram, andhave really built an awesome
community. Last year, so Hazelwas three and 2020 and had just
(37:37):
transitioned. She was almostfour. Okay, so she was in
private preschool when she wasthree. And was had just we had
just had another IEP. And wewere adding one afternoon of an
intensive speech preschoolprogram that was with her speech
therapist from the district. Andwe had added one Oh, outpatient
(37:59):
speech, we just added it back inwhen the world shut down. And
then our district stayed virtualfor all of 2020 and half of
2021. We didn't go back and wewent back and super slowly in
like the afternoons. And I had awhole bunch of friends who had
three and four year olds whowere thinking about enrolling
(38:22):
them in preschool. And we'relike, well, we don't know what
this year is gonna look like Ido I send my kid to their first
school experience with everyonebeing masked and potentially
exposing them to a bunch ofstuff that they don't need to be
exposed to germs and things likethat, or do I keep them home
another year. And so I had for along time. We've always spent a
(38:43):
ton of time outside, I havefound some other local friends
who had kids the same age, whoalso were comfortable being
outside in weather that wasn'tthe norm select friends who were
already outside jumping inpuddles with their kids, and it
was raining friends who arealready sledding with their two
and three year olds and said,Hey, I've got this idea. I would
(39:03):
love to do an all weatherplaygroup. Let's meet up two
times a week, no matter whatwill be outside. And I'll do a
little story and a little artactivity. And we'll just let our
kids run wild in the woods fortwo hours twice a week. And I
asked two friends and then onefriend asked another friend, I
(39:26):
was like spread the word. And Iended up having five families
total including mine. And so wedid a little bit of virtual
learning that year. But mostlyall of our learning was just
playing outside with a bunch ofother little kids. There were
eight kids total. And we'd go tothe same trail or nature zone
(39:47):
for a month and just explore. Sowe would start by just free to
play. And then I'd read a story.
And we do a different poem everymonth, the same poem all month
long. And then we just play. Andwe had a few, like, each week
(40:14):
we'd pick a theme, but it justbe very, something that's easy
to observe. So, slugs, so thisweek, we're just going to look
for slugs. Next week, we'regonna look at the changing
leaves. The next week, we'regonna look at the bark, and just
really tiny focus. And if thekids paid attention, awesome,
(40:35):
and if they didn't, whatever,and it was all these kids who
had really not ever had a chanceto play with other children, so
there's tons of social emotionallearning going on, there was
tons of learning going on. Forall the parents as we let our
kids take risks and navigatedisagreements and
(40:55):
it explore climb trees, andHazel spent like six months
trying to dangle jump andhanging from a branch, which is
what's going on some of theother kids could do in this like
Fort that somebody had built inthe woods. And so she spent all
this time jumping and fallingand jumping and falling. And
finally, the last day shemastered it, she grabbed it hung
(41:17):
on swung and grabbed her feetup, all the kids clapped and
everyone freaked out because itwas something that she was
motivated to do because she sawall of her friends doing it. And
she was able to decide, youknow, I want to do that and I'm
gonna figure it out. So much.
Like I said, social emotionaldevelopment but fine motor
(41:39):
development as kids are climbingand hanging and taking risks and
jumping from tree to tree. Andso much cool vocabulary
learning. I mean hearing much alittle three and four year olds
yell metamorphosis as theypretend to be like, Caterpillar
is turning into butterfly spenta whole month. We're about to do
(42:00):
a whole month of butterfliesagain next month, but we watched
butterflies grow at like thecaterpillars turn into
butterflies. And we did allthese fun art projects. And it
just, it was really coolexperience. And now some of
those kids are in Hazel's classat school. So she's in a mixed
age Montessori children's house.
(42:26):
So she's in a public school.
It's a Montessori program. Andshe's with other three to six
year olds, and two of thesisters that were at the
playgroup are now in her classat school.
Julie Cunningham (42:37):
Yeah, I know that people can check your your
Instagram and your blog andfollow you. But if you had to
give some advice to a parent ora teacher just wanting to get
started with play, where wouldyou tell them in or intentional
play? Where would you tell themto get started or what to try?
Because I imagine if it's notsuccessful initially, then it's
(42:58):
easy to say, Well, that didn'twork. And yes, I didn't go the
way I thought it would orwhatever.
Sarah Szuminski (43:05):
So there is an author, and the Early Childhood
expert named Lisa Murphy. Andshe has a book called Lisa's
Murphy's book of play, I willlook up the full title, but I'm
pretty sure that's what it is.
And it is about her journey asan early childhood educator from
being a worksheet teacher, toembracing and living this life
(43:30):
of play. And her book reallydocuments how she made the
shift. But also all of thesereally important things that are
still accomplished through play,and how play is the ultimate
like kindergarten readiness.
(43:54):
Play is awesome for socialemotional learning, and for self
regulation, and for all of thesereally big life skills that are
going to help our kids succeedmore than being able to recite
the ABCs or count to 20 beforethey get to kindergarten or
write their name. And her bookis really accessible. You don't
(44:16):
have to know the lingo. Youdon't have to have a background
in early childhood education, tounderstand and learn what she is
sharing her book is amazing.
It's awesome. So that's a goodspot to start. And then if
families a lot of communitieshave play and learn groups, or
(44:38):
like there are a lot likelibraries storytimes but our
local community college has oneand it's put on in conjunction
with like great start and BrightBeginnings. And it's a place to
go and learn from educators. Butmostly learn how to play with
(45:00):
your kids. Usually there's artactivities, and there's play to
do. And then they send you homewith ideas of how to continue
that play at home. There's amillion great websites and
Instagram accounts and ideasshared. But I always remind
(45:21):
people that whenever we areseeking inspiration, we should
be thinking about what our kidslike our kids want to do. And
what is the outcome? Because sooften, a lot of the things that
look so pretty in a picture arelike a one and done activity, or
(45:45):
they have like a very specificadult focused learning outcome.
And they look cute, and theymake us feel like, well, there
we go, we've worked on a mathart activity, but they're not
actually that great for helpingkids learn how to play, or for
helping our kids learn ingeneral. They're learning
(46:08):
exactly what we want them tolearn in that moment, and not
all the things they need tolearn.
Julie Cunningham (46:17):
And then I imagine that we've talked a lot
about early childhood play andlearning on this podcast, but is
there? I mean, is it just drivenby the child? I imagine it's
different for every child? Butdo you start to think about it
as while they're entering firstgrade in school will be more
traditionally school in firstgrade and less? I don't know
less preschool and kindergartenlike, or is there a timeline in
(46:40):
which it must just lookdifferent? But does it ever
taper off? Or
Sarah Szuminski (46:45):
so I think kids always need to play. But now
more than ever, childhood isbeing taken away. I mean, for a
variety of reasons. But earlychildhood definitely doesn't end
till age eight. And right. Sothat's second grade, sometimes
third grade. And I think thereare ways to still fill your day
(47:09):
with play, even if your kids arein traditional eight to three
school, whether it's advocatingfor more recess, whether it's
checking to see what the rulesare at recess, like are they
actually allowed to run in play?
Or are they supposed to playadult centered games with some
(47:30):
recesses have moved to beinglike, today, we're all going to
be playing this activity or thatactivity? Are our kids still
allowed to play and then sayingno to homework? I mean, we
haven't crossed this bridge yet,right? Because my daughter is
only in kindergarten. And she'sonly in a half day kindergarten
program, which is really rare inand of itself. So next year is
(47:51):
first grade, and we'll see but Ithink that an our family
Republicans say okay, whathomework is necessary? And what
homework is just being handedout? And is there a way to opt
out, and coming home and puttingthe emphasis on free play before
we sit down like, none of this,you have to finish your homework
(48:15):
before you can go outside andplay. But instead, let's play
first, let's run around outside,let's stay at school, play on
the playground with yourfriends, and then come home and
do all the other stuff. Andthen, you know, I think it can
be hard to for working familieswho don't have the time that I
currently have in my life. But Ido think it's still possible to
(48:38):
say, Saturday mornings, insteadof signing up for a bunch of
different lessons, we're goingto say these three hours are our
family's time to play. And maybewith older kids, that means
playing board games, or writingmusic together, or doing a giant
messy family or project goingfor a hike. I mean, all of these
(48:59):
things are playful without beinglike, today we're going to deal
with blocks mean doing Legosdoing Legos as a family as play.
And still saying that this issomething that's a priority in
our family, even though we don'thave four hours a day to play
outside every day. That's notrealistic for really any family.
Very few families. Is thatrealistic for but I think we can
(49:23):
still value play all the way upinto adulthood. I mean, our play
looks different, but we stillplay, doing puzzles, making
podcasts. Going on Instagram,like creating content for
Instagram for me is playful. Ilove going for walks and reading
for fun. I mean, all of thosethings that looks different
(49:45):
cooking, baking, all of thosethings are can be very playful.
Julie Cunningham (49:55):
But those examples are really helpful.
Thank you.
Ashley O'Neil (49:58):
Is there anything else we didn't talk about? You
wanted to make sure we hittoday, Sarah, I want to be
mindful of your time. But
Sarah Szuminski (50:05):
Something that you had asked in the questions
is what do you wish that?
Ashley O'Neil (50:09):
Oh, yes,
Sarah Szuminski (50:10):
parents, parents or caregivers who had
just qualify it. And
Ashley O'Neil (50:14):
So now you're just going to interview yourself
and answer the questions. (bothlaugh)
Sarah Szuminski (50:18):
I just took some notes on that one, because
I think getting a diagnosis orgoing through the IEP process is
really challenging. And you haveto learn a whole new lingo, a
whole new set of rules and laws.
And when your child has an IEP,you're expected to know
(50:40):
infinitely more about theeducational system than if your
child doesn't. And it can feelreally overwhelming and I went
to school to write IEP is likeI've taken classes on IEP s. And
I have written many IEPs and runIEP meetings. And it feels
completely different to sit onthe other side of the table as a
(51:03):
parent, and hear what yourchild's scores are and what your
child is and isn't doing can bereally hard. And so connecting
with a local advocacy group, ortaking some time to read a book
rights lot, W ri ght s rightslaw puts out a ton of parent
(51:28):
education materials, allsurrounding Ida and IEPs. And,
and you have to educate yourselfon the lingo, because you're an
equitable member of the group.
As a parent, you have equalinput on every single part of
(51:49):
the IEP. And you're the onlyperson who's only thinking about
your kid. The other members ofthe team who love and value your
child have several other kidsthat they're probably reading
IPs for that week. And so as aparent, when you know that you
(52:10):
are an important member of theteam, then you can help drive
the way the meetings go andstart the meeting off positive,
and know that your input hasworth and should be really
valued when it comes to thiswriting of a giant document. I
(52:32):
mean, my kindergarteners IEP islike 22 pages long, it's really
long. And we spent a long timegoing over every single goal
this time around, because it'swhat's going to drive what she
learns in first grade. And itshouldn't be that much work, but
it is. And so just a little bitof education or even just having
(52:59):
one finding one other personwhose kid has the same diagnosis
as you maybe in a Facebooksupport group, or maybe through
a local group. That is like alittle further down the road in
the journey, then you can besuper helpful as well, too can
say art when my kid was in firstgrade, this is what we were
working on. Every kid isdifferent, but then at least you
(53:21):
know what is possible, and whatyou can ask for. So now my
daughter is fully includedalongside her peers and isn't
talking like a kindergartenerisn't reading isn't doing math,
but it's still making amazinggains, and having an awesome
(53:43):
impact on her peers and on herteachers just as much if not
more as they're having on her.
And so knowing that, that I havethe power to say, Okay, it's
worth while we're gonna makethis work has been really
meaningful to me. And I wishsomeone had told me all this
time ago, like I've had tofigure it out kind of on my own
(54:06):
and through other parents. So
Ashley O'Neil (54:09):
yeah, I have to cut through a lot of a lot of
paperwork and lingo and languageand like, we're gonna do this,
we're gonna make it go reallyquickly. And it's hard to say
wait, no, per step. I want tothink about this. And I would
like to see things in advanceand it is a lot but it changes
your experience when you canremember that you you may not
(54:32):
have the same educationalbackground. I mean, I know
you're a teacher, but if youhave an IEP, you may not. You
may you may be a banker orsomething else. But you know
your kid better than anybodyelse does.
Sarah Szuminski (54:44):
Yeah. So many acronyms, so much lingo and even
just knowing that you can saystop. I actually don't know what
it is that you just said or canwe go back and talk about this?
I'm not seeing that at home. Canwe hash this out a tiny bit more
and figure out what we need tohave in place to make sure that
this that you're seeing atschool and goes away can be
(55:10):
really helpful to your kidseducation and helpful to you as
a parent knowing that you havethe power to say,
Ashley O'Neil (55:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. You can find our
information about Sarah and herwebsite simplifying play.com Or
on her Instagram pagesimplifying play. We've included
a few resources that you'll wantto check out in our show notes.
(55:36):
And as always, transcripts areavailable on our website. This
episode and all episodes ofteach wonder have been brought
to you by the Center forExcellence in STEM education.
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach
wonder podcast hosted by AshleyO'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:25):
No fancy segue in here. I'm just really excited to
share this interview whereyou've talked to teachers,
professors, students andeducators on this podcast and
we're doing that again thisweek. Our guest is Sarah
Szymanski. She has her master'sin early childhood education.
And she'll share more about herprofessional background
throughout the interview. What Ido want to talk about for a
(00:46):
minute, though, is how I foundSarah because it wasn't by
googling her credentials. Wedidn't meet at a conference, he
never talked together. Althoughthat would have been delightful.
We met as many people have metin the last few years when
they've been looking for adviceand community and support. I
(01:08):
found Sarah on the internet. SoI'm not sure if you're an adult
in 2022. If you've never thoughtinformation or community or
advice on the internet, and ifyou're a parent, during last
couple of years, particularly,you've probably leaned on your
internet resources and yourinternet community more than you
ever anticipated. I did. A fewyears ago, I was specifically
(01:30):
looking for someone who was abit further along in the early
childhood education process thanour family was at the time. And
I was looking for someone whowould give me a little bit of
magic, a magic answer a magic,schedule magic, something that
would get me out of this placeof having a lot of questions and
unknowns. And like most parents,I wasn't looking at a special
education textbook, even thoughthose are in my garage in a tote
(01:52):
somewhere. And I wasn't leadlooking at the latest research
articles, even though that'swhat I do for my job often, as a
parent, they didn't feelaccessible to me at the time.
And I was looking for somethingthat felt both relevant and
personal. And so I startedlooking at websites and
Instagrams to see what I couldfind. And I found Sarah, who is
(02:13):
a professional, and a parent anda wonderful mix of accessible
information and facts about playschemas, and relatable parenting
that she packages nicely in herwebsite and on her online
presence, whose information andan educational perspective that
I was looking for, and it wasdelivered in a way that spoke to
me both as a parent and as aprofessional. So part of this
(02:34):
interview is about childdevelopment about play
progressions and skill buildingthat happens in all children.
Much of steroids website andresources are geared toward
early childhood developmentusing nature and play schemas
and the power of independentplay. But I can tell you, there
is no expiration date on theadvice and information that
there are shares, even if youthink your your child or your
(02:55):
student has outgrown earlychildhood. The other part of
this interview is a conversationabout being a parent of a child
with a disability. It is not aconversation about that as an
identity, and it is not one thatclaims to be the experience of
all parents. But it is one thatshares how Sarah and her husband
make educational decisions.
Think about child developmentand navigate the special
education world has theiradvocates without owning her own
(03:16):
child's development. There's abeautiful weaving here how
Sarah's background as aneducation shaped and was
reshaped by her experiences as aparent. Like Sarah, I want that
on the teacher side of the tablein special education. And as a
parent, I've learned tons andhave unlearned tons and I've
relearned so many things from mychild and from therapists and
(03:38):
educators that I work with now,Sarah is one of those
professionals to me, someone whohas a deep background in child
development, who is also aparent. So if you are a parent
of a child with a disability, Ihope you hear some ideas and
mindsets that will resonate withyou. We talk IPS inclusion play
long term goals for your childas a person, and educators
whether you consider yourself inspecial education or not early
(04:01):
childhood education or not. Ihope you hear this interview and
learn from Sarah's educationalknowledge and deep love for her
daughter. This interview is onethat I really didn't want to
edit. I didn't have a way tocondense this down into a tidy
30 minutes. And once you startlistening, I think you'll see
why I didn't want you to miss aword that Sarah has to say.
Sarah Szuminski (04:31):
We can talk more once you get started at
all.
Ashley O'Neil (04:35):
So perfect. So I'm gonna kind of ask you the
first question just to kind ofkeep our frame because these are
the big topics I wanted to talkto you about. So you're in a
position where your professionalfocus kind of aligns with
parenting and do you have twoyoung daughters? Can you talk a
little bit about how or whataspects of professional or Child
(04:56):
Development kind of guide yourwork and your parenting since
there's that nice Venn diagramfor you.
Sarah Szuminski (05:01):
Yes. So I have my master's degree in early
childhood special education. AndI worked as an early childhood
special ed teacher. So I didBirth to Three home visits, and
coordinated IFSP. So coordinatedoccupational therapists and
physical therapists and speechtherapists to help children meet
(05:24):
their goals from basically whenthey got home from the hospital
with a diagnosis or with ahealth with health
complications, to help them makeprogress developmentally. So
that's what I did first out ofcollege. And since then I've
done all sorts of things I beena preschool teacher, I've ran
most recently, professionally,ran a large childcare center.
(05:49):
And I wrote all of thecurriculums, and helped do
teacher trainings to help movethe school to more play based
philosophy, versus an academicbased, early child, good hood
center. And that was all beforeI had Hazel. So that was all
just professionally. And then Ihad a prenatal diagnosis, found
(06:12):
out that my daughter would beborn with a heart defect and
with Down syndrome, and I waslike, timeout, this is what I do
for work, this isn't my life aswell. And it turns out, it is my
life as well. And so havingHazel helped me really hone in
on these things that I have beentalking about with parents and
(06:33):
with teachers, for years. Andall of a sudden, I got to see it
happen in just one child. Andwatch. All of these things I
talked about, like trusting thata child will do things when
they're ready, that actuallyhaving to sit back and think,
(06:54):
okay, I can push and push andpush my kid as much as I want.
But until they're ready untilthey're interested, no amount of
therapy, no amount of me,forcing practice over and over
is going to get her there in afaster that I've always talked
(07:15):
about following the child, wehear it all the time. When we
follow a child, you know, we tapinto their interests and their
intrinsic motivation. And all ofa sudden things are more fun.
But again, it wasn't until I wasfollowing a child meet their
milestones way later than what Iwas used to. That I realized
(07:38):
that like, following the childmeans trusting that kids have
inherent capabilities. And whenwe give them time to show us
their capabilities and theirabilities, we learned so much
from them. So that was somethingthat's like, I feel like even in
(07:58):
grad school, we talked about itall the time. And until I got to
watch it firsthand, I didn'tunderstand what a difference
that could make in my life as aparent and as an educator, and
then in my daughter's life,being able to learn that she can
trust herself to that she cantake those risks, that she can
(08:19):
be independent and guide herlearning. I really feel like
that phrase more than anythingthat trusting in your children
and in any child has reallyguided me now professionally.
And as a parent, even with mytypically developing two year
old, which is a completelydifferent ballgame. Parenting
(08:42):
her versus parenting my olderdaughter. And the other things I
just always come back to is thatfreedom of movement and the
power of play. And again, that'ssomething that informed me what
I was doing early interventionand informed me when I was
training early childhoodteachers. But again, until you
(09:05):
see a child spend six monthslearning how to go from laying
down to sitting up, you don'tunderstand how much giving them
that freedom makes a differencefor them. So I think that I've
been on a huge journey as aneducator from saying the
(09:29):
catchphrases to limping thecatchphrases and saying that
they're phrases like that for areason.
Ashley O'Neil (09:37):
Totally, oh my gosh. Julie, I promise I'll let
you speak, I promise. But thatsounds so familiar. And that
idea that I remember having Iwas a special education teacher,
gen ed teacher, and you do thesereally contained sessions that
were really controlled and andscripted and had all of these.
It was like 30 minutes right?
And then I was good and theywere on their way. And when
(09:59):
you're a parent, it's 24/7. Andyou get to see all of the
downtime in the evenings andSaturday mornings, and it's so
much more about- they get allthe credit for all the things
that they're able to do
Sarah Szuminski (10:13):
They really do,
Ashley O'Neil (10:14):
they're in their own body all the time. And so
they get these tips and supportfrom all of these other adults.
But it's got to be in their owntime, because it's it's their,
their body. It's their job.
Yeah.
Sarah Szuminski (10:26):
I worked for Hazel's first 18 months and then
stayed home. She had a wholebunch of health issues, that
meant she couldn't continuegoing to daycare, she was going
to the school that I worked at.
And so we made the tough callfor me to start staying home and
supporting her. When I firststarted staying home, I treated
every moment like a mini therapysession. And I was like, I know
(10:48):
what we're going to do. And Ihad all these goals and
objectives for like, myinteractions with her. And
that's been a big journey to forme, is shifting from a therapy
mindset. And Mama's therapist tomom being mom. I think
especially in this age of socialmedia, you know, when I first
(11:12):
started teaching, we didn't haveteacher Instagram to go to, we
didn't have Pinterest to go to.
You kind of were just doing whatyou learned from your mentor
teachers and from maybe someactivity books. And now like you
said, your pediatrician can saylike, Hey, we're worried about
this. And you can pull up 50accounts that give you ideas,
(11:33):
and strategies, and you can tryto turn every moment into a
learning opportunity. But kidsdon't really learn that way.
Like they don't approach anactivity in order to learn what
we think they should learn theapproach to explore, and to
play. And so when we as adults,as educators, or as parents can
(11:56):
step back and value that overour adult expectations, I think
so much more growth can happen.
That's been a huge shift. Forme, it probably around two and a
half was when I was like,neither of us are having any
fun. Like, this is just a lot ofwork. And this should be fun.
And a typical developing twoyear old isn't having to sit and
(12:21):
do speech flashcards but theirmom. They're not. And so what,
what would I be doing, if shewas talking, oh, we'd be going
to library storytime, oh, we'dbe playing at the park, we'd be
in the backyard. And I was doingall those things. But I was
seeing them all as opportunitiesfor me to get like learning
(12:42):
modules in or sessions in. Andthat just isn't how kids learn.
Right? Those things like yousaid, set them up for success.
Right? We can give them thetools, but they don't need to be
drilled constantly. It's just alot of unnecessary pressure on
everybody.
Ashley O'Neil (13:07):
All right, Julie.
I promise. It's your turn.
Julie Cunningham (13:09):
I guess I'm curious when you interact with
parents. Now, and probably nowas a therapist, I think you're
not in that professionally now.
Right. But when you interactwith parents, has that changed?
Has your perspective changed?
Sarah Szuminski (13:24):
Yes. Especially because when I was going to
people's homes, I was not aparent. And I don't think you
have to be a parent to be ableto do early intervention well,
but I definitely was going inwith like my bag of tricks and
fun things to do, instead ofhelping equip parents with the
(13:45):
tools they need to guide theirchildren. And I think there's
been a big shift in earlyintervention in general to a
more like giving parents toolsversus you as the therapist, or
the interventionist being thetool. But now, you know, when
people message me on Instagramand say, we just got this
(14:07):
diagnosis, or I'm reallystruggling, am I we're spending
seven hours a week get therapywith my two and a half year old
like, what I feel like thisisn't fun. I think past me would
have said, well, you need to getthose early intervention. It's
first five years is the mostimportant. The first three years
are the most important. You gotto get those hours in when you
(14:29):
can, you've got to, you know,and kids, kids with cognitive
disabilities still develop onthe same path. The window
doesn't close the door doesn'tclose at five. And the door
doesn't close at three Iwouldn't Hazel turn three. I was
like, Oh, well, it's over. It'sover. She's three now and what
(14:50):
else can I do? But that doesn'thappen. She kids continue to
learn and to play and to growand so Oh, instead of advising
parents now, oh, yeah, whateveryour insurance will cover and
whatever the state or thedistrict is offering you take
all those hours. I instead askfamilies Okay, what do you
(15:13):
value? What are your family'sgoals? What Where do you see?
What skills does your child needto fit in with your family
dynamic? Do you guys lovehiking? Do you love biking? Do
you love going to museums? Doyou? Does your whole family love
to read? Does your whole familylove to paint? And how can you
(15:35):
help your child find success andyour family find success, real,
doing those recreationstogether, versus how many hours
of speech therapy are reallygoing to help your kid learn to
put sentences together? What,six months sooner? Two months
sooner? So obviously, an earlyintervention is extremely
(15:59):
important. And I'm not sayingthat early identification and
helping parents get the helpthey need in those early years
is vital. But it's just such atiny part of someone's life. And
so again, it's kind of part ofthis journey that I've been on
away from having objectives forinteractions and saying, Okay,
(16:23):
what do we think? What do wewant to see happen in the next
two or three years? And whattools do we need to help our
child learn to get there?
Ashley O'Neil (16:34):
Totally, I, that makes so much sense. And I think
my husband and I had verysimilar conversations. And it
was finally this light bulbmoment of like, where the grown
ups, right, like who's gonnatell who's gonna tell if we go
to the park instead. And again,I feel so tremendous amount of
gratitude to the people who saton Zoom calls with us and like,
(16:56):
and made - were patient with ourdog as they were going in and
out, you know, like, they'rewonderful, wonderful therapists,
but also to recognize that thegoals are larger than graduating
high school, and the goals arelarger than going to college,
the goals are being happy andjoyful and finding joy in
whatever you're doing in yourlife. And that can start now and
(17:18):
it can be a part of yourfamily.Totally.
Sarah Szuminski (17:22):
Yeah, I always get emotional when I talk about
that aspect, because I don'tthink it's talked about often
enough for children who havedisabilities, children who have
diagnoses is that they're notjust a two or three year old,
they're going to be an adultsomeday. And so when we sit and
have very adult expectation, wehave higher behavior
(17:44):
expectations for a two or threeyear old in the speech session
than we would for a two or threeyear old, who's just living
their life, higher expectationsfor them to be able to sit and
attend, and do things that arereally, really hard for them.
And it's laying the frameworkfor a lifetime of sitting across
(18:08):
the table from an adult tellingyou what to do. And that's not
the rest of life, like, what arewe wanting to prepare children
for? And for us, in our family,it's living a full life of self
determination. And so thatstarts young, letting her choose
now what activities she wants todo, what sport she wants to play
(18:29):
and giving her the tools thatshe needs to be successful, in
her own way at what it is thatshe wants to do. She wants to
ride a two wheeler bike. Okay,how can we help her learn how to
ride a two wheeler bike, shewants to play soccer, she's
playing soccer this spring on aregular old Parks and Recreation
team. And so it's probably goingto be one of us out there on the
(18:52):
field with her running aroundwith all the five and four and
five year olds but and lettingher pick the books we read and
the way she plays and honoringthe ways that she wants to play
versus the way that I think sheshould be playing. And I think
that it's going to pave a lifeof more choice for her and an
(19:17):
ability to determine what shewants to do and not be bored and
only have to watch TV and do arec program three hours a day
when Joe transition programs andfor her when she's 26. So it's
like way big picture. But Ithink if as professionals we
(19:42):
really do want to honor play andthat's what I always come back
to to is this idea that if playis an expression of joy and an
expression of choice, and that'show young kids express
themselves and we you can makethat a priority as teachers and
(20:05):
as, as parents, or we can say myideas are more important.
Ashley O'Neil (20:12):
No, no. Yeah, yes to all of those things I was
just thinking about, you sayplay in finding joy, it really
gets back to that strength basedfocus that we like, as parents
and as educators, and I think westrive for that, but it's hard
to, to, you can talk about it.
And then sometimes it's hard tospot that in the wild and put it
into practice, right. So my sonreally loves the Mr. In his
(20:36):
bedroom has little humidifier.
So we had this huge, longconversation about the motor and
the sound that was making in theway that was working. I mean, we
played up there for an hour anda half. And I said to my
husband, I said, you know, we'vegot a lot of toys downstairs,
but this brought joy. And he, hehad a blast. And from a speech
(20:56):
side, we had all of theseconversations, right from our
fine motors that he's playingwith the little knobs and
buttons, but it was totally whathe wanted to do in that moment
instead. And so, and I get thatdoing that on a Tuesday night
with my one child, in my home isso different than a teacher
doing it in the classroom. But Istill think that there's space
(21:17):
for that shift to happen, wherewe say, Okay, what's working for
you, kid? And then how can Ifollow you.
Sarah Szuminski (21:25):
Yes, and letting Him guide the
conversation and guide what he'sinterested in. And at our house,
sometimes that looks likeplaying grocery store for hours
and hours. And we're packingwere multiple girls are very
into like packing bags and goingcamping, they like pack to go
(21:45):
different places. But itbasically means put all their
toys in whatever containers theycan find. And it's the kind of
play that makes me a littletwitchy, because I like, like,
all you're doing is piling allyour things together. But
honoring that that's how theywant to play and then coming at
it to from a developmentalstandpoint, and knowing and
(22:07):
something I share a lot on myInstagram is knowing the why
behind different play behaviors.
And children who areneurodiverse, or children who
are developmentally delayed stayin certain play patterns a lot
longer. And that can causefamilies, and teachers a lot of
frustration, it can look likeproblem behaviors, like kids who
are throwing things. For years,some kids throw things for
(22:31):
years, throw their cups off thetable, throw every toy they can
get their hands on, they'reexploring the world. They're
exploring momentum, and physicsand gravity and all of these
different things cause andeffect cause and effect on the
object cause and effect on theadults around me. Like they are
getting a lot of fulfillmentfrom that kind of exploration.
(22:52):
And we can either see it assuper annoying. Or we can see it
as scratching like thisdevelopmental itch that they
need to get this out of theirsystem. And it could still be
annoying. Like when I have tohelp my girls put two laundry
baskets of stuff that they'vepiled away like, yes, that is
(23:13):
bothersome to me. But I can alsosee that they're categorizing,
and organizing and creating apretend world and having a ton
of social interaction, whichHazel has a huge vocabulary. But
having back and forthconversations can be really
challenging. And so they can getin WH questions. Where are you
(23:36):
going? What did you pack? Whatare you wearing? Who will you
see? And if I can engage in thatway with her, versus while we're
reading a book, or while I'masking her what happened at
school during the day, which isreally tricky for her. But she
can buy through play, she canengage in those conversations,
(24:00):
because that's what she wants tobe talking about, just like you
said, with the Mr. or kids wholove cars, or kids who love
dinosaurs. And it's hard. It'shard as an adult to put yourself
back back in that world, butwhen we can make we can unlock
so much more potential and somuch more fun for our kids and
(24:21):
for us.
Ashley O'Neil (24:25):
So you've talked about I think you've talked
about in a lot of sideways ways,but a little more directly. I
think about your role as aparent is not the same as
Hazel's life. And I feel likeyou do a really great job of
advocating for her andsupporting her without owning
her identity as your own. Andthat's not easy to do. And it's
(24:47):
really important to do. So canyou talk a little bit about how
that works for you how youadvocate for her what your
mindset is, I'm sure you andyour spouse do that together.
But if you could talk a littlebit about that, that'd be great.
Sarah Szuminski (24:59):
Well, we just said I did really early on, that
our identity wasn't going to bedown syndrome. And I think that
it's really easy as parents,especially when you're living
the nitty gritty. And the trickylife of caring for a kid with
either complex medical needs,complex educational needs, are
(25:20):
just isn't what you thought waswhat your life was going to look
like, it can become really easyto make that diagnosis your
whole world. And it's been a bigjourney of growth for me,
because I found a lot of comfortin owning her diagnosis in the
(25:42):
early days, I think it helped meaccept what her diagnosis was,
and move through the stages ofgrief. You know, even though I
knew and had taught severalchildren with Down syndrome, it
still was really scary to get adiagnosis. And I think finding a
(26:04):
little bit of identity in thathelped me process all of those
feelings, and then move pastreally early on. We put up some
pretty firm social mediaboundaries about what we share
about for her medically and whatwe share about for her beyond
her just being a kid. And it's adefinitely a journey that I've
(26:29):
been on. In learning fromdisabled adults, reading books
by disabled adults, followingdisabled adults on social media,
learning more about disability,civil rights was really huge for
me, and that I am a disabilityadjacent parent, my child has a
(26:53):
disability, that's not who I am.
And that's not my community, shewill eventually have her own
community and we seek outfriendships, for her with other
children with Down syndrome justas much as we seek out inclusion
for her. And I had to break downmy own internalized ableism,
(27:14):
which is a conversation forwhole- we could talk about that
for hours. But listening todisabled adults, and centering
my daughter's experience, overmy experience, really helped me
make that move. And my missionon social media has always just
(27:34):
been to say, Hey, this is ourlife, it looks a little
different than yours. But I betin a lot of ways, it's really
similar. My kid might look alittle different than yours. But
in a lot of ways, her childhoodexperience is very similar to
your child's experience. AndI've really always wanted to
(27:54):
focus on this is what we do, youknow, this is how we play. These
are the places we go. But theseare our favorite things to do we
love going to the park, we lovegoing to the library. But this
is not who I am. If that makessense.
Ashley O'Neil (28:16):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And do you find
that that mindset of beingdisability adjacent and that
your job is to advocate for herand it's centered around her? Do
you find that that helps youwhen it comes to IEP meetings
and, and and deciding therapy isand looking at her short term
goals and long term plan?
Sarah Szuminski (28:37):
It does. I think it's going to inform us
even more as she becomes anactive participant in her
educational planning, becausethat's the goal in IEPs is to
have the individual help guidetheir planning and their
education. And it's going to beseveral years before she's
(28:58):
sitting in IEP meeting with us.
But I think that we're teachingher to be a self advocate all
the time. By listening when shesays no, by by letting her make
choices by giving her time tocommunicate what it is she likes
and what she doesn't like. byinterpreting challenges at
(29:22):
school, or things that likeagain, can be labeled as
behaviors but seeing thoseinstead as communication.
Instead of Oh, woe is me, mychild's really struggling in
this area, my life so hard, butinstead to see it as okay,
something's happening that isn'tworking for her. What is she
(29:43):
letting us know, through thesebehaviors or through these
issues she's having, and thenhow can we help her make a
change? And so I think that'sreally informed the IEP process.
And then we always come to thetable with what our long term
vision is for her life, with thecaveat that someday she's going
(30:08):
to tell us what her long termvision is. And it's probably
going to be different than whatwe're saying. But for now, our
long term vision is that she isan active member of her
community, that she has choiceover her life as an adult, that
if she chooses to pursue highereducation, or a job, or a
relationship, that she has thetools that she's gaining the
(30:31):
tools from school, to help herhave success down the road. And
a lot of times, you come to theIEP table, and they have tons of
goals for the next six monthsand the next year. And they're
so hyper focused on they can't,that it's hard to see. What
we're really working for, youknow, are not just working that
(30:55):
she can identify all 26 letters,upper and lowercase 90% of the
time, we're working that she canread bus schedule someday, you
know that she can navigate agrocery store. So I think that
we come to the table and say,Alright, this is our big goal,
what can we work on this yearthat can help us get there. And
(31:17):
having that mindset has helpedus say no to a lot as well,
there's a huge push. I talkedabout this already, but a huge
push to have your child in asmuch extra as possible with the
idea that it's going to helpthem that three hours of
(31:43):
physical therapy a week arebetter than one. And to our
speech therapy is better thanone and you should be doing in
school therapy and out of schooltherapy. And don't forget about
music therapy. And all of asudden, you're running your kid
from place to place to place andwhen you can pause and say okay,
what is our long term goal? Andhow will dictating every hour of
(32:05):
every day for her help her reachthis long term goal of being an
independent adult, because itwon't, you know, if kids aren't
given the chance to play anddetermine what they do when
they're little, it's really hardfor you to say suddenly, you're
15. And you need to start makingsome choices about what to do
(32:26):
with your time. I thought of onemore thing that I wanted to say
about this, the idea of ableismand unpacking my own ableism and
how that's informed our IEPjourney. So a big part of having
my identity not be wrapped up inmy child's disability helps me
(32:49):
not find my worth in heraccomplishments.
And it helps me accept herexactly as she is today, instead
of thinking how much better lifewill be when she can tell me
what's wrong, or when she'sreading or when she's doing XY
(33:10):
and Z. And so when I can focusexactly on who she is now and
see that she's worthy, even ifshe never does any of those
things. It helps me value herchildhood, over pushing her to
meet those milestones. And so ithelps me say, Okay, well, one
(33:32):
more hour of this therapy, orafter school tutoring, really be
enriching to her life right now,or we're playing on a soccer
team, be what needs to be ourone extra thing for these next
couple of months. Our districtis universal summer school. It's
like a summer camp and they doflip COVID thing, but it's
(33:56):
continuing on this summer. Andso we gave her the choice of
doing outpatient speech with aspeech therapist she loves or
did she want to keep going toschool for a few weeks this
summer. And she picked school,which does not surprise me. She
loves loves, loves school,sports, she's gonna get to go to
school with some of her friendsand it's at a different school.
(34:16):
But it's the same Montessoriprogram that we're already in
and I'm able to see that that ismore important that her choices
she's making now are moreimportant than me pushing her to
become what she could be in sixmonths. And that has been
another journey. Like I don'tthink that you just it's hard.
(34:44):
It's hard to change your mindsetto be like that. And it's been
because of lift listening to thelived experiences of disabled
adults and what they say therelationships were like with
their families, getting to knowadults with Down syndrome, you
know, and there are selfadvocates with Down syndrome,
(35:05):
there are public speakers withDown Syndrome and listening to
them. And valuing theirexperience over their parents
experience, which again, is kindof taboo on social media. It's
all parents talking for theirkids that have Down syndrome.
And so saying, all right, whatthis person is saying is not as
(35:26):
important as what the selfadvocate that I follow, is
saying. And again, it?
Ashley O'Neil (35:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And you're, you're great.
I hear a lot of like, and I I'vebeen trying to do this more to
is this idea of like neutrallanguage, like things are
neutral. So rather than saying,Oh, my goodness, I wish it was
this way, or I Can't BelieveIt's Not this way, or here's a
milestone, and we're back here,you're really neutral to say,
Well, I see that this ishappening. How can we problem
(35:59):
solve to move forward? What arethis, I see that there's some
skills we need to practice here,so let's practice them. And it's
so much less stressful foreveryone. But it is a little bit
of have you carving out thisspace is a Nope, we're gonna
keep it neutral. And I'm gonnakeep some of this stress away
from Hazel, away from our house,and to keep the neutral language
(36:21):
and so does that translate?
Well, when you get out into outof your bubble of your own, your
own four walls of your homedoes.
Sarah Szuminski (36:30):
We have an awesome community, we have
awesome friends who havechildren with disabilities. And
we have awesome friends who havechildren like minded friends who
have children with disabilities.
And we have more friends whosekids are typically developing, I
mean, that's just life becausenot that many people have Down
(36:50):
syndrome but and I've connectedI mean, my thing when Hazel was
little is that, okay, if Ireally want inclusion for her,
in her life inclusion starts bytaking her to the grocery store,
and showing up at librarystorytime, and showing up at
Mommy and me, music class, andjust be like, here we are.
(37:15):
You'll figure it out. We'llfigure it out. We're all
learning together. And I've metfriends by going to library
storytime. I've met peoplethrough Instagram, local
families through Instagram, andhave really built an awesome
community. Last year, so Hazelwas three and 2020 and had just
(37:37):
transitioned. She was almostfour. Okay, so she was in
private preschool when she wasthree. And was had just we had
just had another IEP. And wewere adding one afternoon of an
intensive speech preschoolprogram that was with her speech
therapist from the district. Andwe had added one Oh, outpatient
(37:59):
speech, we just added it back inwhen the world shut down. And
then our district stayed virtualfor all of 2020 and half of
2021. We didn't go back and wewent back and super slowly in
like the afternoons. And I had awhole bunch of friends who had
three and four year olds whowere thinking about enrolling
(38:22):
them in preschool. And we'relike, well, we don't know what
this year is gonna look like Ido I send my kid to their first
school experience with everyonebeing masked and potentially
exposing them to a bunch ofstuff that they don't need to be
exposed to germs and things likethat, or do I keep them home
another year. And so I had for along time. We've always spent a
(38:43):
ton of time outside, I havefound some other local friends
who had kids the same age, whoalso were comfortable being
outside in weather that wasn'tthe norm select friends who were
already outside jumping inpuddles with their kids, and it
was raining friends who arealready sledding with their two
and three year olds and said,Hey, I've got this idea. I would
(39:03):
love to do an all weatherplaygroup. Let's meet up two
times a week, no matter whatwill be outside. And I'll do a
little story and a little artactivity. And we'll just let our
kids run wild in the woods fortwo hours twice a week. And I
asked two friends and then onefriend asked another friend, I
(39:26):
was like spread the word. And Iended up having five families
total including mine. And so wedid a little bit of virtual
learning that year. But mostlyall of our learning was just
playing outside with a bunch ofother little kids. There were
eight kids total. And we'd go tothe same trail or nature zone
(39:47):
for a month and just explore. Sowe would start by just free to
play. And then I'd read a story.
And we do a different poem everymonth, the same poem all month
long. And then we just play. Andwe had a few, like, each week
(40:14):
we'd pick a theme, but it justbe very, something that's easy
to observe. So, slugs, so thisweek, we're just going to look
for slugs. Next week, we'regonna look at the changing
leaves. The next week, we'regonna look at the bark, and just
really tiny focus. And if thekids paid attention, awesome,
(40:35):
and if they didn't, whatever,and it was all these kids who
had really not ever had a chanceto play with other children, so
there's tons of social emotionallearning going on, there was
tons of learning going on. Forall the parents as we let our
kids take risks and navigatedisagreements and
(40:55):
it explore climb trees, andHazel spent like six months
trying to dangle jump andhanging from a branch, which is
what's going on some of theother kids could do in this like
Fort that somebody had built inthe woods. And so she spent all
this time jumping and fallingand jumping and falling. And
finally, the last day shemastered it, she grabbed it hung
(41:17):
on swung and grabbed her feetup, all the kids clapped and
everyone freaked out because itwas something that she was
motivated to do because she sawall of her friends doing it. And
she was able to decide, youknow, I want to do that and I'm
gonna figure it out. So much.
Like I said, social emotionaldevelopment but fine motor
(41:39):
development as kids are climbingand hanging and taking risks and
jumping from tree to tree. Andso much cool vocabulary
learning. I mean hearing much alittle three and four year olds
yell metamorphosis as theypretend to be like, Caterpillar
is turning into butterfly spenta whole month. We're about to do
(42:00):
a whole month of butterfliesagain next month, but we watched
butterflies grow at like thecaterpillars turn into
butterflies. And we did allthese fun art projects. And it
just, it was really coolexperience. And now some of
those kids are in Hazel's classat school. So she's in a mixed
age Montessori children's house.
(42:26):
So she's in a public school.
It's a Montessori program. Andshe's with other three to six
year olds, and two of thesisters that were at the
playgroup are now in her classat school.
Julie Cunningham (42:37):
Yeah, I know that people can check your your
Instagram and your blog andfollow you. But if you had to
give some advice to a parent ora teacher just wanting to get
started with play, where wouldyou tell them in or intentional
play? Where would you tell themto get started or what to try?
Because I imagine if it's notsuccessful initially, then it's
(42:58):
easy to say, Well, that didn'twork. And yes, I didn't go the
way I thought it would orwhatever.
Sarah Szuminski (43:05):
So there is an author, and the Early Childhood
expert named Lisa Murphy. Andshe has a book called Lisa's
Murphy's book of play, I willlook up the full title, but I'm
pretty sure that's what it is.
And it is about her journey asan early childhood educator from
being a worksheet teacher, toembracing and living this life
(43:30):
of play. And her book reallydocuments how she made the
shift. But also all of thesereally important things that are
still accomplished through play,and how play is the ultimate
like kindergarten readiness.
(43:54):
Play is awesome for socialemotional learning, and for self
regulation, and for all of thesereally big life skills that are
going to help our kids succeedmore than being able to recite
the ABCs or count to 20 beforethey get to kindergarten or
write their name. And her bookis really accessible. You don't
(44:16):
have to know the lingo. Youdon't have to have a background
in early childhood education, tounderstand and learn what she is
sharing her book is amazing.
It's awesome. So that's a goodspot to start. And then if
families a lot of communitieshave play and learn groups, or
(44:38):
like there are a lot likelibraries storytimes but our
local community college has oneand it's put on in conjunction
with like great start and BrightBeginnings. And it's a place to
go and learn from educators. Butmostly learn how to play with
(45:00):
your kids. Usually there's artactivities, and there's play to
do. And then they send you homewith ideas of how to continue
that play at home. There's amillion great websites and
Instagram accounts and ideasshared. But I always remind
(45:21):
people that whenever we areseeking inspiration, we should
be thinking about what our kidslike our kids want to do. And
what is the outcome? Because sooften, a lot of the things that
look so pretty in a picture arelike a one and done activity, or
(45:45):
they have like a very specificadult focused learning outcome.
And they look cute, and theymake us feel like, well, there
we go, we've worked on a mathart activity, but they're not
actually that great for helpingkids learn how to play, or for
helping our kids learn ingeneral. They're learning
(46:08):
exactly what we want them tolearn in that moment, and not
all the things they need tolearn.
Julie Cunningham (46:17):
And then I imagine that we've talked a lot
about early childhood play andlearning on this podcast, but is
there? I mean, is it just drivenby the child? I imagine it's
different for every child? Butdo you start to think about it
as while they're entering firstgrade in school will be more
traditionally school in firstgrade and less? I don't know
less preschool and kindergartenlike, or is there a timeline in
(46:40):
which it must just lookdifferent? But does it ever
taper off? Or
Sarah Szuminski (46:45):
so I think kids always need to play. But now
more than ever, childhood isbeing taken away. I mean, for a
variety of reasons. But earlychildhood definitely doesn't end
till age eight. And right. Sothat's second grade, sometimes
third grade. And I think thereare ways to still fill your day
(47:09):
with play, even if your kids arein traditional eight to three
school, whether it's advocatingfor more recess, whether it's
checking to see what the rulesare at recess, like are they
actually allowed to run in play?
Or are they supposed to playadult centered games with some
(47:30):
recesses have moved to beinglike, today, we're all going to
be playing this activity or thatactivity? Are our kids still
allowed to play and then sayingno to homework? I mean, we
haven't crossed this bridge yet,right? Because my daughter is
only in kindergarten. And she'sonly in a half day kindergarten
program, which is really rare inand of itself. So next year is
(47:51):
first grade, and we'll see but Ithink that an our family
Republicans say okay, whathomework is necessary? And what
homework is just being handedout? And is there a way to opt
out, and coming home and puttingthe emphasis on free play before
we sit down like, none of this,you have to finish your homework
(48:15):
before you can go outside andplay. But instead, let's play
first, let's run around outside,let's stay at school, play on
the playground with yourfriends, and then come home and
do all the other stuff. Andthen, you know, I think it can
be hard to for working familieswho don't have the time that I
currently have in my life. But Ido think it's still possible to
(48:38):
say, Saturday mornings, insteadof signing up for a bunch of
different lessons, we're goingto say these three hours are our
family's time to play. And maybewith older kids, that means
playing board games, or writingmusic together, or doing a giant
messy family or project goingfor a hike. I mean, all of these
(48:59):
things are playful without beinglike, today we're going to deal
with blocks mean doing Legosdoing Legos as a family as play.
And still saying that this issomething that's a priority in
our family, even though we don'thave four hours a day to play
outside every day. That's notrealistic for really any family.
Very few families. Is thatrealistic for but I think we can
(49:23):
still value play all the way upinto adulthood. I mean, our play
looks different, but we stillplay, doing puzzles, making
podcasts. Going on Instagram,like creating content for
Instagram for me is playful. Ilove going for walks and reading
for fun. I mean, all of thosethings that looks different
(49:45):
cooking, baking, all of thosethings are can be very playful.
Julie Cunningham (49:55):
But those examples are really helpful.
Thank you.
Ashley O'Neil (49:58):
Is there anything else we didn't talk about? You
wanted to make sure we hittoday, Sarah, I want to be
mindful of your time. But
Sarah Szuminski (50:05):
Something that you had asked in the questions
is what do you wish that?
Ashley O'Neil (50:09):
Oh, yes,
Sarah Szuminski (50:10):
parents, parents or caregivers who had
just qualify it. And
Ashley O'Neil (50:14):
So now you're just going to interview yourself
and answer the questions. (bothlaugh)
Sarah Szuminski (50:18):
I just took some notes on that one, because
I think getting a diagnosis orgoing through the IEP process is
really challenging. And you haveto learn a whole new lingo, a
whole new set of rules and laws.
And when your child has an IEP,you're expected to know
(50:40):
infinitely more about theeducational system than if your
child doesn't. And it can feelreally overwhelming and I went
to school to write IEP is likeI've taken classes on IEP s. And
I have written many IEPs and runIEP meetings. And it feels
completely different to sit onthe other side of the table as a
(51:03):
parent, and hear what yourchild's scores are and what your
child is and isn't doing can bereally hard. And so connecting
with a local advocacy group, ortaking some time to read a book
rights lot, W ri ght s rightslaw puts out a ton of parent
(51:28):
education materials, allsurrounding Ida and IEPs. And,
and you have to educate yourselfon the lingo, because you're an
equitable member of the group.
As a parent, you have equalinput on every single part of
(51:49):
the IEP. And you're the onlyperson who's only thinking about
your kid. The other members ofthe team who love and value your
child have several other kidsthat they're probably reading
IPs for that week. And so as aparent, when you know that you
(52:10):
are an important member of theteam, then you can help drive
the way the meetings go andstart the meeting off positive,
and know that your input hasworth and should be really
valued when it comes to thiswriting of a giant document. I
(52:32):
mean, my kindergarteners IEP islike 22 pages long, it's really
long. And we spent a long timegoing over every single goal
this time around, because it'swhat's going to drive what she
learns in first grade. And itshouldn't be that much work, but
it is. And so just a little bitof education or even just having
(52:59):
one finding one other personwhose kid has the same diagnosis
as you maybe in a Facebooksupport group, or maybe through
a local group. That is like alittle further down the road in
the journey, then you can besuper helpful as well, too can
say art when my kid was in firstgrade, this is what we were
working on. Every kid isdifferent, but then at least you
(53:21):
know what is possible, and whatyou can ask for. So now my
daughter is fully includedalongside her peers and isn't
talking like a kindergartenerisn't reading isn't doing math,
but it's still making amazinggains, and having an awesome
(53:43):
impact on her peers and on herteachers just as much if not
more as they're having on her.
And so knowing that, that I havethe power to say, Okay, it's
worth while we're gonna makethis work has been really
meaningful to me. And I wishsomeone had told me all this
time ago, like I've had tofigure it out kind of on my own
(54:06):
and through other parents. So
Ashley O'Neil (54:09):
yeah, I have to cut through a lot of a lot of
paperwork and lingo and languageand like, we're gonna do this,
we're gonna make it go reallyquickly. And it's hard to say
wait, no, per step. I want tothink about this. And I would
like to see things in advanceand it is a lot but it changes
your experience when you canremember that you you may not
(54:32):
have the same educationalbackground. I mean, I know
you're a teacher, but if youhave an IEP, you may not. You
may you may be a banker orsomething else. But you know
your kid better than anybodyelse does.
Sarah Szuminski (54:44):
Yeah. So many acronyms, so much lingo and even
just knowing that you can saystop. I actually don't know what
it is that you just said or canwe go back and talk about this?
I'm not seeing that at home. Canwe hash this out a tiny bit more
and figure out what we need tohave in place to make sure that
this that you're seeing atschool and goes away can be
(55:10):
really helpful to your kidseducation and helpful to you as
a parent knowing that you havethe power to say,
Ashley O'Neil (55:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. You can find our
information about Sarah and herwebsite simplifying play.com Or
on her Instagram pagesimplifying play. We've included
a few resources that you'll wantto check out in our show notes.
(55:36):
And as always, transcripts areavailable on our website. This
episode and all episodes ofteach wonder have been brought
to you by the Center forExcellence in STEM education.
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