April 14, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode we sit down with Steve Frisbee, camp director at the Chippewa Nature Center. We discuss the importance of experiential learning and community in childhood development. Steve emphasizes the shift from content-driven to experience-focused education, highlighting the transformative impact of nature on children's lives. We hear how the center's programs foster risk-taking, social interaction, and personal growth, using examples like frogging and group adventures. This conversation underscores the need for collaboration between parents, educators, and the community to create safe, nature-rich spaces that nurture children's development. You won't want to miss it!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie Cunningham (00:00):
I'm wondering, for me, that resonates with the
(00:04):
idea that if we take away thoseexperiences, we're also not even
allowing kids to fail, right? Soif we're learning from failure,
and failure can be a celebrationbecause we're learning from it,
but we don't allow theexperience to even happen. Like,
where are we? Short changingthese practices in this
(00:25):
community.
Introduction (00:29):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes, welcome to teachwonder up high. Podcast hosted
byAshley O'Neil and JulieCunningham.
Unknown (00:51):
You're hearing us talk about a lot of words in our
season this spring, communityagency, extinction, of
experience, joy, and we'retrying to make connections
between these words to ideasthat were perhaps unrelated
previously in your mind. Becauseone of the cool parts of our job
is that we get to dance withschools, with informal
educators, with teachers,parents, kids, families, and we
(01:14):
get to create our ownprogramming as well. And I see
aspects of the system now that Ididn't or couldn't see when I
was in the classroom. And whatwe're hoping to achieve with
this podcast is to share some ofthese stories and examples with
you, to show you the connectionswe see in education and to make
some new meaning to these maybepreviously unrelated terms. Our
(01:35):
conversation with our guesttoday moves between some of
these topics. We talk aboutcommunity, we talk about giving
kids experiences, what risktaking looks like, about
generational differences inchildhood and parenting styles.
And it can be easy to think ofeach portion of this
conversation in isolation, but Iwant to highlight how these
things are all related, howparenting styles show up in the
(01:56):
classroom, how the types ofexperiences that students have
in and out of school shape theirsense of self and how they build
a community, because childhooddoes not happen in a vacuum. It
happens at summer camp. Ithappens in the classroom, around
the dinner table with friends onbike rides and in front of the
screen, it's all of it. And weare people who care so much
(02:18):
about the places and the momentsthat build a person that we want
to keep talking about them. So Ihope the conversation today
sparks some questions and getsyou thinking about childhood and
education in some new ways.
Today, we learned a lot from ourguest, and we hope that you do
too.
(02:39):
So welcome and we're really gladthat you're here. It'd be great
if you could just start bysharing a little bit about who
you are and what your role isand what you do. If that's okay,
sure.
Steve Frisbee (02:50):
My name is Steve Frisbee. I'm the camp director
at the Chippewa Nature Center inMidland, Michigan. I am a
passionate advocate for helpingchildren have happy, healthy
childhoods. I've been at thenature center for 18 years.
Before I took the camp directorrole, I was a nature preschool
(03:12):
teacher for over 10 years, andjust absolutely fell in love
with the mission of connectingchildren to the outdoors and
helping them have positiveexperiences that hopefully will
impact their lives and theirfamily lives. So I've been
blessed to be able to do thatfor a good portion of my career.
That'sawesome. Um, I guess I didn't
realize that you were preschoolteacher first at the nature
(03:34):
center. One of Were you one ofthe original preschool teachers?
Unknown (03:39):
Yeah, that was interesting. I came to the
nature center Australia college.
I went to Penn State, and when Igot here, they hired me for the
camp staff. I had a prettyextensive camp experience across
the East Coast, but they werestarting a pilot project of a
nature preschool, which was oneof like 13 in the country at the
(03:59):
time, and most of my experiencewas upper elementary and middle
school. And when the directorasked me, Hey, would you think
about teaching three to fiveyear old, it's always like, let
me think on it. I'm gettingmarried in a couple days, and I
absolutely love the philosophyof having kids outside every
(04:20):
day, September to May, and thenjust the way they incorporated,
like play and just these real,authentic experiences. I
absolutely fell in love with themission, and it transformed my
life. So I taught and grew thatprogram for 10 years, and I did
camp in the summer, I didn'tgive up camp because I think
(04:41):
camp is a really powerful toolfor children, but preschool
allowed me to actually do campyear round. So
Julie Cunningham (04:50):
my question says this, have you seen a lot
of change in that programming orchange in the like? Can you just
think about maybe big picturechanges or high. Right, high
leverage changes like, oh
Steve Frisbee (05:03):
my goodness, yes.
So the philosophy of of whywe're doing it has not changed.
So getting kids outside, fallingin love with nature that has
always been the goal thatremains the goal our practice
and just being connected toother early childhood
(05:23):
organizations and institutionsacross the state in the country,
we just learn the best practicesfor early childhood education,
which is like decades ofresearch and experience that has
really transformed how we serveyouth at the center now. So when
(05:44):
I first came to Nature Center,was very content driven. We were
very much interested in kidsleaving our camps and our
programs with knowledge that hascompletely shifted to developing
experiences where the processesof learning so being curious and
(06:09):
asking questions andcollaborating with others and
developing the whole child ismuch more prominent in our
program today than it was 18years ago. So I'm really happy
to say that we are I feel likewe're doing really quality work
and caring for children andtheir families, not just with
(06:31):
science in nature topics, butjust throughout their
development to be happy, healthypeople so really excited and
really, really need to see thathow early childhood has
influenced, influenced thatjourney. That was
(06:52):
the perfect segue question.
Julie, so well done, because myfirst question is, and Steve, we
have, I feel like we kind ofbump into each other
professionally on and off, andyou're in a meeting that I'm in,
and I have you talk to teachersfor us. And one of the things I
really like hearing you talkabout is this kind of childhood
experiences. And I know you justmentioned that. So can you talk
a little bit about what anexperience rich childhood means
(07:14):
or looks like to you?
Yeah, we the experiences we'retrying to cultivate is ones that
are like you're fully presentfor its hands on Active Minds,
on it just kind of fullyinvolves the person. So if we
(07:40):
can find these key moments inchildhood and provide them
consistently, and have theseavenues to have these
experiences. I've been in myrole so long that I can see the
transformative effect on theperson later in life. So so now
it's our job at the naturecenter and our teams to
(08:01):
cultivate and make sure theseexperience happens. So what am I
talking about? An example of anexperience rich environment is
okay? Is the child exploring,discovering things on their own
and not just being told? Arethey reflecting on what they're
doing and do Do we have enoughtime where they actually have
(08:23):
time to just process and playand think about what the
experience they just had, andkind of take it apart and tear
it apart and rework it and tryagain. And so do they even have,
you know, the the structure ofthe day, to be able to really,
(08:44):
to learn from these and to growfrom these. So, you know,
catching a frog for the firsttime, I've just seen, you know,
students eyes like you can readabout frogs, but until you have
one in your hand, and liketrying to get away from you or
jumping at your feet, the fuel,the smell, the look like being
at the pond like that's anexperience, rich moment sleeping
(09:08):
in a tent for the first timeaway from your family. It is
challenging and hard, but we'rethere for it, and if we can put
the right people in the space tonurture them and to help them
feel safe and trusted. Theylearn something about themselves
doing that experience with usthat absolutely will help them
(09:30):
be ready for the next adventurein life. So, yeah,
yeah, that was perfect. Thankyou. And I, I, we had just had
another guest on the podcast,and she also talked about like,
just learning about your bodycomes from those experiences,
right? And she mentioned thatyou can tell a kid you're gonna
get cold if you don't have yourcoat, but if they don't know
what that means, because theyhaven't experienced it yet, it
(09:52):
doesn't mean anything. And Ihear that parallel with you,
that you're not there toshortcut anybody's process to
figure something. Out, becausethat process is the way that it
really gets integrated intotheir whole system, which is
really cool. Um, you do a lot ofthings in camp, in informal
community, right? Camps happenin community. Preschool, you
(10:14):
have this ongoing community.
What do you think communitymeans for children and for
families?
Yeah, I think community is, youknow, for children and families,
it's the people in the spacewith you going through something
together. And usually you have,like, a uniting factor or a
(10:37):
common interest or a commonvalue, but like, you're all in
it together, and for a positive,really, you know, supportive
community, it takes a lot ofhard work and a lot of
intentionality to to createthis. So this is why I do what I
do every single day. Camps areso they they have the secret
(11:02):
sauce of finding thesecommunities where children can
be their true, authentic selves.
They can be vulnerable, they canmake mistakes, and that's what
they need to to that time andspace to do. They're not being
graded or judged if we do itright. So if we put the right
people, the right teachers inthe space, and we create these
(11:23):
core values of like, No, we'reall life long learners, we're
all going to make mistakes. Andthat's actually a celebration,
because that's when weoftentimes learn the most. And
if we can, if we can get ourteachers to buy in, our children
to buy in, and then we show thatto the parents, they'll become
our biggest advocates. And thenwhen we have this community
(11:46):
that's dedicated to preservingthe sacred space for people to
develop, that's where the magicis, and it can't spin on this
for a while now. And yeah, I, Ithat's, I mean, that's my daily
work with schools, the teams I'mputting together every off
season in January and February.
(12:07):
That's what we're looking for.
We're looking for the people tomake those safe places for kids.
Julie Cunningham (12:14):
I actually have two questions, but my first
is probably more relevant towhat you just said. I'm curious,
then, Steve, do you think thatyou find maybe it's some of
each, but you find the rightpeople to put in those
positions? Or do you findyourself having to do a lot of
training? Or is it some of each?
Does it depend
Steve Frisbee (12:36):
both? Yeah, absolutely, some of each. This
is one of the really fascinatingthings I get to watch, is being
at the same organization over along stretch of time, is our
campers are now the onesbecoming our teachers. And to be
able, like, I'm really proud ofthe the Chippewa Nature Center
(12:59):
for investing in teens. Soteens, 13 to 17 year old, they
can actually start to volunteerand teach, and that's a chance
for us. So even when they'reaging out of our camp programs,
they're still a part of ourcommunity, and we're still like,
this is how you interview for ajob, and this is how you talk to
parents and communicate. Thishow you work with coworkers, and
(13:22):
it's building those teachersfrom our from our campers, and
still, still the mission, rightof that continued development,
that growth. So that being said,there are other great
organizations just like ours,nurturing these people, but
we're looking for the peoplethat are open minded and curious
(13:45):
and want to serve children thevery best, and then we'll take
what we've learned and helptrain them. So yeah, it's
helpful when we we trainteachers from 13 and up, but we
absolutely bring in teachers allalong the way. So it's both. It
absolutely is both.
Julie Cunningham (14:08):
My second question is related to you were
talking about experiences andspecifically failure, and
there's a couple of instanceslately that I've either read
about or heard a term that'scalled extinction of experience
in ways in which kids don't haveexperiences maybe that prior
(14:29):
generations had. And some of thetimes in which I've seen it used
was specifically with likeadventure or outdoor
experiences, right? That maybewe're trading as adults what we
think of as a safety net. Iekeeping kids indoors for like
this extinction of experienceoutdoors. And so I wonder if you
(14:53):
can address that, and howeveryou think you want to address
it, I don't. There's not a rightor wrong answer. I don't think
I. Um, maybe just your take onit, but then also, I'm
wondering, for me, thatresonates with the idea that if
we take away those experiences,we're also not even allowing
kids to fail, right? So if we'relearning from failure, and
(15:17):
failure can be a celebrationbecause we're learning from it,
but we don't allow theexperience to even happen, like,
where are we short changingthese practices in this
community?
Steve Frisbee (15:31):
Yeah, I think about this a lot. I'm a dad of
three children getting intotheir teenage years and
comparing my childhood, youknow, before the 90s and their
childhood now, and how muchthat's how much that looks
different is, I would say,concerning, because I do think
(15:55):
children need autonomy away Fromaway from adults, and I don't
know if I see that as much now,like, if you when I drive around
my neighborhood, like I used to,like in my childhood, I would
have, you know, 25 of my closestfriend the bike gang, you know,
(16:17):
going down to the Creek, layingdown there, playing street
hockey on an actual street withcars coming through like and we
the parents would, my parentswould kick us out, and we come
back when it got dark that haslike I see. Parents have to be
(16:37):
more intentional and make thoseexperiences happen, and they're
less frequent than that, so thatmeans, yeah, kids aren't, you
know, having that freedom, thatautonomy, to even even try. So I
mean that becomes our challengesfor places like camp and schools
(16:58):
and things like that. Can wegive children a supportive
environment, but also allow themto take risks make mistakes. You
know, not big mistakes, butmistakes where they can learn
from so they don't make reallybig mistakes later in life, they
have to be able to learn how toaccept or manage and assess
risk. If they don't do that,that spells out some trouble
(17:22):
later, later in life. So, yeah,really important work that that
I'll be advocating probably myentire career, of trying to
create these environments thatallow kids to still fail and
not, you know, expect, you know,serve them well when they're
(17:43):
that age, right? We need ourteenagers to take risks.
Oftentimes, you know, I I'veeven had conversations with my
own children, like, there's acamera everywhere, there's a
cell phone everywhere, withlike, everything will be
recorded of what you do. Ididn't have to to worry about
that. Now, I will say thingshave changed with parenting
(18:07):
styles and things like that. SoI was a very fearful child of
getting in trouble and parentsome parenting strategies now
where kids are feeling much moresupported to take risks too. So
it's yeah, it depends on theindividual or the family unit
and how they're being raised,yeah, but I would say overall,
(18:29):
yeah, there is a decrease in theability of a child to fail.
Hey, I'm really glad you broughtthat up, Steve. We're just going
to, like, hard pivot and juststop here for a minute, because
that you said something that Ithink is a really important
contradiction that I think I seehappening. So I have a six year
(18:50):
old, and so I'm on a bit of ayounger end of the parenting
journey, and I hear what you'resaying about I feel like
generations past had a lot morefreedom outside, a lot more
unsupervised, unstructured time.
Like you said, there's no recordof anything because we don't
have a social media or camerafollowing us around. But on the
flip side, also, there is thatkind of fear based of the
(19:10):
consequences were swift and big.
And I think along with thatreduction of independence, there
is the flip side, where there isa more supported space and a lot
more intentional conversationshappening with parenting
strategies about helping kidslearn about their body. We know
(19:30):
a whole lot more about neurodevelopment than we used to,
right, and a whole lot moreabout how important movement is
for student, for kids. So I feellike it's a both and right, like
we have this extinction ofexperience because the
communities aren't this kind offree flowing open space, and
also we have parents who havesome new tools that are pretty
cool, that are helping kidslearn about that. And so it's
(19:51):
this interesting time to raisechildren and to be a teacher,
where you see that coupling, doyou see in your camps and space?
Is we had middle schoolers inhere today, and we had some
middle schoolers who werebuilding a fort. And if I told
their parents, they were eighthgraders and they were spending
time building a fort, thatdoesn't seem like maybe an age
(20:12):
appropriate exercise, right?
You're on a college campus,you're in a maker space, you're
for building but I could seethat that developmentally was
where they needed to be. Therewas so much conversation, so
much collaboration, and a lot ofmechanical they didn't have the
best materials to work with, andso they were doing some pretty
ingenious things with thematerials. Do you see that where
kids haven't maybe done all thethings that you'd expect them to
(20:36):
do in their 4567, and so it'shappening later. And how do you
navigate when you have that? Youknow, the 13 and 14 year olds
who are maybe wanting to play ina way that you would say, Well,
that was what we did in likethird grade camp. Do you know
you mean,yeah, we've actually, I mean,
this is, if I could giveeducators any advice, it's just
(20:58):
watch children, they'll tell youexactly what they need. And
we've actually took our, youknow, our younger camp groups,
and we watched the older one,and they're craving the same
experiences they were having atage seven as now they're nine,
and they're like, Oh, we're sodevastated that we can't do this
camp anymore. I was like, whoa,whoa, whoa. We can offer this
(21:20):
program, and we can put thislittle spin on it, and it's just
go be a little more depth, andwe go push you a little more in
a certain area you might nothave thought about. So it won't
be the exact same, but stillprovides the same experiences of
that, you know, the process ofbeing imaginative and playful,
and, you know, doing things thatthey really treasured about, you
(21:43):
know, like we have a villagecamp where they make a little
village and a character. So whatit looks like for a 10 year old
is a lot different than a sevenyear old. So seven year olds
really small character reallylike tangible 10 year olds. It's
they are the character, andtheir their village is not
small, it is huge. And they'rebuilding shelters, and they get
(22:06):
to write the story. They're thesecret society in the woods.
It's just a little moreautonomy, less you know, less
you know, guidance from thecounselor, and they're more
supporting them as a mentor. Soyeah, I do see that especially.
I mean, I think every three tofive year old should be at a
(22:29):
pond at some point, holdingfrogs and things like that. I'll
take high schoolers out, andthat's their favorite program,
is frogging at the pond. Soyeah, I mean, it's just, with
our program, we just add alittle extension to it. So okay,
maybe we frog at the pond andallow that to happen for our
older students, and then for thelast 10 minutes, we bring out
(22:53):
cordless microscopes and showthem a whole nother world that,
you know, they haven't, they'vebeen invest game that they
didn't know. So, yeah, that's,that's the part, because we
have, you know, kids that havedone it all, but some things
just never get old, too. So,yeah, we have teachers. I think
(23:14):
we've taken teachers out, andtheir favorite thing is also
pound dipping. That's somethingthat they would like to spend
more and more time on. It's agood reminder to me that when we
put an age limit on Play, we I'mnot going to say harm, because I
don't think it's intentional,but there are some consequences
to that, right? When we say,well, that's something, that's
(23:36):
preschooler like, that's apreschool activity. That's what
they would do when thatplayfulness, that imagination, I
think anybody, the adults, thecampers, the counselors, here in
the maker space, I benefit fromthe playfulness and whimsy that
students bring. So it's coolwhen they can have a space where
it's a little judgment free,which goes back to what you were
saying about community, whereit's safe to show up and be a
(23:58):
little silly, or to ask a lot ofquestions, or to try something
like, I haven't had an hour ofopportunities to climb a tree,
so maybe I was the high schoolerwho wanted to climb a tree, even
though that was a something elseall my peers could do. So when
you develop a community likethat, that's really great,
and that's, I mean, that's thebest thing about I think that's
(24:19):
what early childhood gave usthat that perspective is like
no, observe, follow the child'slead, and be in an environment
that says yes to children andallow them to kind of craft
their experience alongside ofyou. So, yeah. So if we get, you
know, wind of some, like, reallycurious about, you know, like
(24:43):
climbing or playing a certaingame, will absolutely have them
become the leaders and teachthrough that. So sometimes
Julie Cunningham (24:52):
it's hard for people to, I don't know, maybe
understand or or visualize whatit is. Is you're saying, if you
could share an example or two ofwhich you've seen, maybe some of
your favorite examples of whereyou've seen children take risk
and sort of learn from thattaking risk. And then perhaps,
(25:14):
I'm thinking like two ways,maybe, maybe they learned to
work through some frustration,and that was impressive, right,
in taking the risk, or they sortof learned that for the feature,
oh my gosh, I could absolutelydo this, and I felt safe doing
it. So that translated intobeing able to do something that
Steve Frisbee (25:32):
a risk that we see often is actually that
social risk. With our programs,we to to kind of establish our
who we are in our community. Wehave all camp gatherings, and
it's a time where we get tocelebrate each other, explore
differences and interests. Butwe've been really working hard
(25:56):
in the last five years or so toreally turn that over to the
camp instead of our our leaders,our teachers, just kind of
dictating what that looks like.
We're allowing our campers toshare with what they want to
share. So we often have childrenthat will stand in front 50
people for the first time andsing a new song, and we're right
(26:18):
there, but that that'sincredibly hard, and sometimes
it doesn't go well, and it'sreally uncomfortable, but that's
the important part, is whathappens right after it? So we
can say, oh, that didn't goexactly how you wanted, but look
how brave you were, and look howstrong you are, and and we get
(26:38):
to kind of craft what happensnext with with where they want
to go so they they get to learn,like, even one of the hardest
thing is like, when you fail,are you able to experience that
and to be sad and hurt? But thencan you trust someone enough to
(26:58):
have them work through that withyou and to make a plan to move
forward, and maybe evensometime, I've seen people try
again, and there's just a hugecelebration, and that person got
through something really hardthat could have been like a
barrier to their development,and actually gave them grit and
perseverance and developed thestrength for later in life so
(27:22):
that those happen daily. Sharingan idea in front of you know,
your peers is always hard, youknow, I that's one of my
favorite parts of the job. Islike that project is so amazing.
Would you be willing to justtalk about that at the end of
(27:42):
the days and tell all the othercamp groups what you're doing,
and they're allowed to say yesor no, but providing that
opportunity to take that risk,to be in front of others, and
then I I mean, we lead adventuretrips, and where we go from, you
know, doing one night camp outsto nine days immersed in the
(28:06):
back country in the wildernessof Michigan, and children learn
a lot about themselves. Theythey're often going where they
don't know any of the othergroup mates, and then they're
trying something physically thatthey haven't ever attempted to
do before. And then it's, it'sour job to build that, that
(28:30):
group, that supportive group, tohelp them overcome, you know,
physically, not even a beingable to do that, and maybe have
to build some accommodations,but then to be all right with
that and know that, you know, wecan still try again. We can try
a different way. We're designingall kinds of different trips to
(28:52):
have these different experiencesthat have children even push
their limits a little bit, be alittle uncomfortable to learn
learn more about themselves. So
Julie Cunningham (29:06):
those are two great examples. Thank you,
Steve, and that, I think they'regreat examples, because it
really sort of doesn't matterwhat age person you put in that
example, right? It could, youcould just as easily be talking
about an adult who's afraid togo try something new, or to talk
in public, or to take the risk.
And so, yeah, those are great.
(29:29):
Thank you.
Steve Frisbee (29:30):
I think the other thing that makes it work so
well, and having been to yourcamps and spend a lot of time at
your preschool, I've seen whatthat risk taking looks like in
action. And something I thinkthat's hard, it's a hard
clarification, is that it's notthe child against the task, it's
you and the child you know kindof approaching that task. And so
(29:53):
the risk taking happens whenthat child knows they have the
safety net of the adult, andyou're not bailing them out,
right? Like. Not singing thesong for them, but you're there
as a safe person for them, totalk about their frustrations,
to feel like that didn't gowell, to to hear their grief or
their concerns about the failurethat they had, and then to be
there to support them andproblem solve with them, a way
(30:16):
to try again. And I think one ofthe stark differences I noticed
coming from formal education toinformal is that the
circumstances allowed me to beon that side of the student so
much more easily, right? Like itwasn't me in the math problem
against the child, it's thatchild is learning something new,
and I'm right there with them,kind of supporting them along
(30:37):
the way. And so sometimes I hearteachers say, like, well, we
have to make things hard forkids. And if we make it easy and
they confuse or like, assumethat the support, being a
supportive adult means that itwon't be risky. But in your
situation, you're like, Hey,your circumstances are risk.
This is uncomfortable. This isthe difficult thing. I don't
(30:59):
have to contrive risk for themby making it seem harder and
saying, Well, you're on yourown. So I think the thing that
makes it work so well for you isjust the magic of how supportive
your staff is able to be. Do youuse a curriculum or, like, a
discipline? I know discipline isnot the word I'm looking for,
but like, a Conscious Disciplinetype approach with your staff,
(31:22):
yeah, we, we, we absolutely fellin love with Dr Beck. Doctor
Becky Bailey's ConsciousDiscipline on just it's based in
brain research. It's gives youLanguage Tools. It allows you to
have some tools when it's reallyuncomfortable, of what you might
(31:45):
say. So that has beeninstrumental in helping us
navigate really hard situations.
One of her you know, hours isthe power of positive intent and
just even changing the way youchoose to think about a
circumstance or a situation thatsomething happens, you can
(32:07):
choose to think it in a positiveway or a negative way. And this
is life changing for ourteachers, and if we're modeling
that for our students, that justit helps. I will say that's one
of the hardest things of my jobis to have new teachers come
along and they want kids to behappy and to be struggle free,
(32:29):
and as like, Oh, you. You signedup for a camp that believes that
struggle is necessary and andwe're going to sit in really
hard feelings, and we're notgoing to solve problems
necessarily for a child, butwe're going to be partners, and
(32:51):
we're going to we'll go do theheavy lifting of that. You know,
that weight of, you know,acknowledging feelings and
emotions and talking throughupset and and allowing the child
to kind of own that process. Soit's, it's it's challenging.
What gives me hope is some ofthese students have been
(33:12):
learning these skills since theywere three, and I've witnessed
them learn these skills. Soyeah, they have those
scripts from their campcounselors in their head so
they're more readily becausethat voice is inside. Julie, did
we miss any questions? I know wedeviated. Or Steve, do we miss
anything touch on? Well,
Julie Cunningham (33:31):
I think, I mean, we have skipped or sort of
blurred the lines on somequestions, as we have 10 have a
tendency to do, but I the sortof a question at the end. The
final question was kind of, andI think this would be helpful
for listeners like, what areways in which parents or
teachers or camp counselors,people who work with youth,
(33:56):
right? How can maybe withoutformal training. What are ways
in which they can be supportiveof young people's community? And
I know you've mentioned a numberof them, Steve throughout the
podcast, but maybe if we couldjust draw attention to some of
those ways in which sometakeaways for people who are
listening.
Steve Frisbee (34:16):
Yeah, I absolutely love this question.
I'm very passionate about this,and I think this is what I kind
of discovered throughout,throughout my careers, is we, we
have to be connected, parents,educators in the community. We
have to open up our environmentsto each other and look at each
other as partners to Yes, wehave to have safe environments,
(34:41):
but the most impact I've seen isthrough nature. Preschool is
where parents volunteeralongside teachers in the space,
and there's not one side thatknows more. They just have
different strengths indifferent. Knowledges and
different perspectives, and whenwe're listening to and working
(35:04):
together, that's when we learnthe most. So I've seen families
that have come in and sharedtheir life experience with us
that has changed me, how Icommunicate with families. And
then on the flip side, I've seenthem, you know what they value,
what they value with their timewith their child change like
(35:27):
I've watched the family go fromparking as close as they can to
the building to parking at thevery end of a parking lot, so
they get an extra 10 minutes ontrail to nature preschool with
their child, and they'reintentionally choosing to slow
down to kind of like, allow thechild a little bit of freedom.
(35:49):
And that's transformative. So ifthey start valuing these kind of
environments, they're going toadvocate for them more. So when
they go off to school, theyadvocate to their next teachers
on you know, my child reallyneeds three recesses, so I saw
in my in my career, go from onerecess. Now my elementary school
(36:11):
has three recesses, and theyhave an outdoor learning space.
And so it takes time, and we'vegot to be patient, but if we're
in it together, we're learningand listening to each other.
That's where that support andtrust comes in.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. Thank you for
(36:33):
listening. You can findimportant links and information
in our show notes. You
I'm wondering, for me, that resonates with the
(00:04):
idea that if we take away thoseexperiences, we're also not even
allowing kids to fail, right? Soif we're learning from failure,
and failure can be a celebrationbecause we're learning from it,
but we don't allow theexperience to even happen. Like,
where are we? Short changingthese practices in this
(00:25):
community.
Introduction (00:29):
Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach
wonder. Yes, welcome to teachwonder up high. Podcast hosted
byAshley O'Neil and JulieCunningham.
Unknown (00:51):
You're hearing us talk about a lot of words in our
season this spring, communityagency, extinction, of
experience, joy, and we'retrying to make connections
between these words to ideasthat were perhaps unrelated
previously in your mind. Becauseone of the cool parts of our job
is that we get to dance withschools, with informal
educators, with teachers,parents, kids, families, and we
(01:14):
get to create our ownprogramming as well. And I see
aspects of the system now that Ididn't or couldn't see when I
was in the classroom. And whatwe're hoping to achieve with
this podcast is to share some ofthese stories and examples with
you, to show you the connectionswe see in education and to make
some new meaning to these maybepreviously unrelated terms. Our
(01:35):
conversation with our guesttoday moves between some of
these topics. We talk aboutcommunity, we talk about giving
kids experiences, what risktaking looks like, about
generational differences inchildhood and parenting styles.
And it can be easy to think ofeach portion of this
conversation in isolation, but Iwant to highlight how these
things are all related, howparenting styles show up in the
(01:56):
classroom, how the types ofexperiences that students have
in and out of school shape theirsense of self and how they build
a community, because childhooddoes not happen in a vacuum. It
happens at summer camp. Ithappens in the classroom, around
the dinner table with friends onbike rides and in front of the
screen, it's all of it. And weare people who care so much
(02:18):
about the places and the momentsthat build a person that we want
to keep talking about them. So Ihope the conversation today
sparks some questions and getsyou thinking about childhood and
education in some new ways.
Today, we learned a lot from ourguest, and we hope that you do
too.
(02:39):
So welcome and we're really gladthat you're here. It'd be great
if you could just start bysharing a little bit about who
you are and what your role isand what you do. If that's okay,
sure.
Steve Frisbee (02:50):
My name is Steve Frisbee. I'm the camp director
at the Chippewa Nature Center inMidland, Michigan. I am a
passionate advocate for helpingchildren have happy, healthy
childhoods. I've been at thenature center for 18 years.
Before I took the camp directorrole, I was a nature preschool
(03:12):
teacher for over 10 years, andjust absolutely fell in love
with the mission of connectingchildren to the outdoors and
helping them have positiveexperiences that hopefully will
impact their lives and theirfamily lives. So I've been
blessed to be able to do thatfor a good portion of my career.
That'sawesome. Um, I guess I didn't
realize that you were preschoolteacher first at the nature
(03:34):
center. One of Were you one ofthe original preschool teachers?
Unknown (03:39):
Yeah, that was interesting. I came to the
nature center Australia college.
I went to Penn State, and when Igot here, they hired me for the
camp staff. I had a prettyextensive camp experience across
the East Coast, but they werestarting a pilot project of a
nature preschool, which was oneof like 13 in the country at the
(03:59):
time, and most of my experiencewas upper elementary and middle
school. And when the directorasked me, Hey, would you think
about teaching three to fiveyear old, it's always like, let
me think on it. I'm gettingmarried in a couple days, and I
absolutely love the philosophyof having kids outside every
(04:20):
day, September to May, and thenjust the way they incorporated,
like play and just these real,authentic experiences. I
absolutely fell in love with themission, and it transformed my
life. So I taught and grew thatprogram for 10 years, and I did
camp in the summer, I didn'tgive up camp because I think
(04:41):
camp is a really powerful toolfor children, but preschool
allowed me to actually do campyear round. So
Julie Cunningham (04:50):
my question says this, have you seen a lot
of change in that programming orchange in the like? Can you just
think about maybe big picturechanges or high. Right, high
leverage changes like, oh
Steve Frisbee (05:03):
my goodness, yes.
So the philosophy of of whywe're doing it has not changed.
So getting kids outside, fallingin love with nature that has
always been the goal thatremains the goal our practice
and just being connected toother early childhood
(05:23):
organizations and institutionsacross the state in the country,
we just learn the best practicesfor early childhood education,
which is like decades ofresearch and experience that has
really transformed how we serveyouth at the center now. So when
(05:44):
I first came to Nature Center,was very content driven. We were
very much interested in kidsleaving our camps and our
programs with knowledge that hascompletely shifted to developing
experiences where the processesof learning so being curious and
(06:09):
asking questions andcollaborating with others and
developing the whole child ismuch more prominent in our
program today than it was 18years ago. So I'm really happy
to say that we are I feel likewe're doing really quality work
and caring for children andtheir families, not just with
(06:31):
science in nature topics, butjust throughout their
development to be happy, healthypeople so really excited and
really, really need to see thathow early childhood has
influenced, influenced thatjourney. That was
(06:52):
the perfect segue question.
Julie, so well done, because myfirst question is, and Steve, we
have, I feel like we kind ofbump into each other
professionally on and off, andyou're in a meeting that I'm in,
and I have you talk to teachersfor us. And one of the things I
really like hearing you talkabout is this kind of childhood
experiences. And I know you justmentioned that. So can you talk
a little bit about what anexperience rich childhood means
(07:14):
or looks like to you?
Yeah, we the experiences we'retrying to cultivate is ones that
are like you're fully presentfor its hands on Active Minds,
on it just kind of fullyinvolves the person. So if we
(07:40):
can find these key moments inchildhood and provide them
consistently, and have theseavenues to have these
experiences. I've been in myrole so long that I can see the
transformative effect on theperson later in life. So so now
it's our job at the naturecenter and our teams to
(08:01):
cultivate and make sure theseexperience happens. So what am I
talking about? An example of anexperience rich environment is
okay? Is the child exploring,discovering things on their own
and not just being told? Arethey reflecting on what they're
doing and do Do we have enoughtime where they actually have
(08:23):
time to just process and playand think about what the
experience they just had, andkind of take it apart and tear
it apart and rework it and tryagain. And so do they even have,
you know, the the structure ofthe day, to be able to really,
(08:44):
to learn from these and to growfrom these. So, you know,
catching a frog for the firsttime, I've just seen, you know,
students eyes like you can readabout frogs, but until you have
one in your hand, and liketrying to get away from you or
jumping at your feet, the fuel,the smell, the look like being
at the pond like that's anexperience, rich moment sleeping
(09:08):
in a tent for the first timeaway from your family. It is
challenging and hard, but we'rethere for it, and if we can put
the right people in the space tonurture them and to help them
feel safe and trusted. Theylearn something about themselves
doing that experience with usthat absolutely will help them
(09:30):
be ready for the next adventurein life. So, yeah,
yeah, that was perfect. Thankyou. And I, I, we had just had
another guest on the podcast,and she also talked about like,
just learning about your bodycomes from those experiences,
right? And she mentioned thatyou can tell a kid you're gonna
get cold if you don't have yourcoat, but if they don't know
what that means, because theyhaven't experienced it yet, it
(09:52):
doesn't mean anything. And Ihear that parallel with you,
that you're not there toshortcut anybody's process to
figure something. Out, becausethat process is the way that it
really gets integrated intotheir whole system, which is
really cool. Um, you do a lot ofthings in camp, in informal
community, right? Camps happenin community. Preschool, you
(10:14):
have this ongoing community.
What do you think communitymeans for children and for
families?
Yeah, I think community is, youknow, for children and families,
it's the people in the spacewith you going through something
together. And usually you have,like, a uniting factor or a
(10:37):
common interest or a commonvalue, but like, you're all in
it together, and for a positive,really, you know, supportive
community, it takes a lot ofhard work and a lot of
intentionality to to createthis. So this is why I do what I
do every single day. Camps areso they they have the secret
(11:02):
sauce of finding thesecommunities where children can
be their true, authentic selves.
They can be vulnerable, they canmake mistakes, and that's what
they need to to that time andspace to do. They're not being
graded or judged if we do itright. So if we put the right
people, the right teachers inthe space, and we create these
(11:23):
core values of like, No, we'reall life long learners, we're
all going to make mistakes. Andthat's actually a celebration,
because that's when weoftentimes learn the most. And
if we can, if we can get ourteachers to buy in, our children
to buy in, and then we show thatto the parents, they'll become
our biggest advocates. And thenwhen we have this community
(11:46):
that's dedicated to preservingthe sacred space for people to
develop, that's where the magicis, and it can't spin on this
for a while now. And yeah, I, Ithat's, I mean, that's my daily
work with schools, the teams I'mputting together every off
season in January and February.
(12:07):
That's what we're looking for.
We're looking for the people tomake those safe places for kids.
Julie Cunningham (12:14):
I actually have two questions, but my first
is probably more relevant towhat you just said. I'm curious,
then, Steve, do you think thatyou find maybe it's some of
each, but you find the rightpeople to put in those
positions? Or do you findyourself having to do a lot of
training? Or is it some of each?
Does it depend
Steve Frisbee (12:36):
both? Yeah, absolutely, some of each. This
is one of the really fascinatingthings I get to watch, is being
at the same organization over along stretch of time, is our
campers are now the onesbecoming our teachers. And to be
able, like, I'm really proud ofthe the Chippewa Nature Center
(12:59):
for investing in teens. Soteens, 13 to 17 year old, they
can actually start to volunteerand teach, and that's a chance
for us. So even when they'reaging out of our camp programs,
they're still a part of ourcommunity, and we're still like,
this is how you interview for ajob, and this is how you talk to
parents and communicate. Thishow you work with coworkers, and
(13:22):
it's building those teachersfrom our from our campers, and
still, still the mission, rightof that continued development,
that growth. So that being said,there are other great
organizations just like ours,nurturing these people, but
we're looking for the peoplethat are open minded and curious
(13:45):
and want to serve children thevery best, and then we'll take
what we've learned and helptrain them. So yeah, it's
helpful when we we trainteachers from 13 and up, but we
absolutely bring in teachers allalong the way. So it's both. It
absolutely is both.
Julie Cunningham (14:08):
My second question is related to you were
talking about experiences andspecifically failure, and
there's a couple of instanceslately that I've either read
about or heard a term that'scalled extinction of experience
in ways in which kids don't haveexperiences maybe that prior
(14:29):
generations had. And some of thetimes in which I've seen it used
was specifically with likeadventure or outdoor
experiences, right? That maybewe're trading as adults what we
think of as a safety net. Iekeeping kids indoors for like
this extinction of experienceoutdoors. And so I wonder if you
(14:53):
can address that, and howeveryou think you want to address
it, I don't. There's not a rightor wrong answer. I don't think
I. Um, maybe just your take onit, but then also, I'm
wondering, for me, thatresonates with the idea that if
we take away those experiences,we're also not even allowing
kids to fail, right? So if we'relearning from failure, and
(15:17):
failure can be a celebrationbecause we're learning from it,
but we don't allow theexperience to even happen, like,
where are we short changingthese practices in this
community?
Steve Frisbee (15:31):
Yeah, I think about this a lot. I'm a dad of
three children getting intotheir teenage years and
comparing my childhood, youknow, before the 90s and their
childhood now, and how muchthat's how much that looks
different is, I would say,concerning, because I do think
(15:55):
children need autonomy away Fromaway from adults, and I don't
know if I see that as much now,like, if you when I drive around
my neighborhood, like I used to,like in my childhood, I would
have, you know, 25 of my closestfriend the bike gang, you know,
(16:17):
going down to the Creek, layingdown there, playing street
hockey on an actual street withcars coming through like and we
the parents would, my parentswould kick us out, and we come
back when it got dark that haslike I see. Parents have to be
(16:37):
more intentional and make thoseexperiences happen, and they're
less frequent than that, so thatmeans, yeah, kids aren't, you
know, having that freedom, thatautonomy, to even even try. So I
mean that becomes our challengesfor places like camp and schools
(16:58):
and things like that. Can wegive children a supportive
environment, but also allow themto take risks make mistakes. You
know, not big mistakes, butmistakes where they can learn
from so they don't make reallybig mistakes later in life, they
have to be able to learn how toaccept or manage and assess
risk. If they don't do that,that spells out some trouble
(17:22):
later, later in life. So, yeah,really important work that that
I'll be advocating probably myentire career, of trying to
create these environments thatallow kids to still fail and
not, you know, expect, you know,serve them well when they're
(17:43):
that age, right? We need ourteenagers to take risks.
Oftentimes, you know, I I'veeven had conversations with my
own children, like, there's acamera everywhere, there's a
cell phone everywhere, withlike, everything will be
recorded of what you do. Ididn't have to to worry about
that. Now, I will say thingshave changed with parenting
(18:07):
styles and things like that. SoI was a very fearful child of
getting in trouble and parentsome parenting strategies now
where kids are feeling much moresupported to take risks too. So
it's yeah, it depends on theindividual or the family unit
and how they're being raised,yeah, but I would say overall,
(18:29):
yeah, there is a decrease in theability of a child to fail.
Hey, I'm really glad you broughtthat up, Steve. We're just going
to, like, hard pivot and juststop here for a minute, because
that you said something that Ithink is a really important
contradiction that I think I seehappening. So I have a six year
(18:50):
old, and so I'm on a bit of ayounger end of the parenting
journey, and I hear what you'resaying about I feel like
generations past had a lot morefreedom outside, a lot more
unsupervised, unstructured time.
Like you said, there's no recordof anything because we don't
have a social media or camerafollowing us around. But on the
flip side, also, there is thatkind of fear based of the
(19:10):
consequences were swift and big.
And I think along with thatreduction of independence, there
is the flip side, where there isa more supported space and a lot
more intentional conversationshappening with parenting
strategies about helping kidslearn about their body. We know
(19:30):
a whole lot more about neurodevelopment than we used to,
right, and a whole lot moreabout how important movement is
for student, for kids. So I feellike it's a both and right, like
we have this extinction ofexperience because the
communities aren't this kind offree flowing open space, and
also we have parents who havesome new tools that are pretty
cool, that are helping kidslearn about that. And so it's
(19:51):
this interesting time to raisechildren and to be a teacher,
where you see that coupling, doyou see in your camps and space?
Is we had middle schoolers inhere today, and we had some
middle schoolers who werebuilding a fort. And if I told
their parents, they were eighthgraders and they were spending
time building a fort, thatdoesn't seem like maybe an age
(20:12):
appropriate exercise, right?
You're on a college campus,you're in a maker space, you're
for building but I could seethat that developmentally was
where they needed to be. Therewas so much conversation, so
much collaboration, and a lot ofmechanical they didn't have the
best materials to work with, andso they were doing some pretty
ingenious things with thematerials. Do you see that where
kids haven't maybe done all thethings that you'd expect them to
(20:36):
do in their 4567, and so it'shappening later. And how do you
navigate when you have that? Youknow, the 13 and 14 year olds
who are maybe wanting to play ina way that you would say, Well,
that was what we did in likethird grade camp. Do you know
you mean,yeah, we've actually, I mean,
this is, if I could giveeducators any advice, it's just
(20:58):
watch children, they'll tell youexactly what they need. And
we've actually took our, youknow, our younger camp groups,
and we watched the older one,and they're craving the same
experiences they were having atage seven as now they're nine,
and they're like, Oh, we're sodevastated that we can't do this
camp anymore. I was like, whoa,whoa, whoa. We can offer this
(21:20):
program, and we can put thislittle spin on it, and it's just
go be a little more depth, andwe go push you a little more in
a certain area you might nothave thought about. So it won't
be the exact same, but stillprovides the same experiences of
that, you know, the process ofbeing imaginative and playful,
and, you know, doing things thatthey really treasured about, you
(21:43):
know, like we have a villagecamp where they make a little
village and a character. So whatit looks like for a 10 year old
is a lot different than a sevenyear old. So seven year olds
really small character reallylike tangible 10 year olds. It's
they are the character, andtheir their village is not
small, it is huge. And they'rebuilding shelters, and they get
(22:06):
to write the story. They're thesecret society in the woods.
It's just a little moreautonomy, less you know, less
you know, guidance from thecounselor, and they're more
supporting them as a mentor. Soyeah, I do see that especially.
I mean, I think every three tofive year old should be at a
(22:29):
pond at some point, holdingfrogs and things like that. I'll
take high schoolers out, andthat's their favorite program,
is frogging at the pond. Soyeah, I mean, it's just, with
our program, we just add alittle extension to it. So okay,
maybe we frog at the pond andallow that to happen for our
older students, and then for thelast 10 minutes, we bring out
(22:53):
cordless microscopes and showthem a whole nother world that,
you know, they haven't, they'vebeen invest game that they
didn't know. So, yeah, that's,that's the part, because we
have, you know, kids that havedone it all, but some things
just never get old, too. So,yeah, we have teachers. I think
(23:14):
we've taken teachers out, andtheir favorite thing is also
pound dipping. That's somethingthat they would like to spend
more and more time on. It's agood reminder to me that when we
put an age limit on Play, we I'mnot going to say harm, because I
don't think it's intentional,but there are some consequences
to that, right? When we say,well, that's something, that's
(23:36):
preschooler like, that's apreschool activity. That's what
they would do when thatplayfulness, that imagination, I
think anybody, the adults, thecampers, the counselors, here in
the maker space, I benefit fromthe playfulness and whimsy that
students bring. So it's coolwhen they can have a space where
it's a little judgment free,which goes back to what you were
saying about community, whereit's safe to show up and be a
(23:58):
little silly, or to ask a lot ofquestions, or to try something
like, I haven't had an hour ofopportunities to climb a tree,
so maybe I was the high schoolerwho wanted to climb a tree, even
though that was a something elseall my peers could do. So when
you develop a community likethat, that's really great,
and that's, I mean, that's thebest thing about I think that's
(24:19):
what early childhood gave usthat that perspective is like
no, observe, follow the child'slead, and be in an environment
that says yes to children andallow them to kind of craft
their experience alongside ofyou. So, yeah. So if we get, you
know, wind of some, like, reallycurious about, you know, like
(24:43):
climbing or playing a certaingame, will absolutely have them
become the leaders and teachthrough that. So sometimes
Julie Cunningham (24:52):
it's hard for people to, I don't know, maybe
understand or or visualize whatit is. Is you're saying, if you
could share an example or two ofwhich you've seen, maybe some of
your favorite examples of whereyou've seen children take risk
and sort of learn from thattaking risk. And then perhaps,
(25:14):
I'm thinking like two ways,maybe, maybe they learned to
work through some frustration,and that was impressive, right,
in taking the risk, or they sortof learned that for the feature,
oh my gosh, I could absolutelydo this, and I felt safe doing
it. So that translated intobeing able to do something that
Steve Frisbee (25:32):
a risk that we see often is actually that
social risk. With our programs,we to to kind of establish our
who we are in our community. Wehave all camp gatherings, and
it's a time where we get tocelebrate each other, explore
differences and interests. Butwe've been really working hard
(25:56):
in the last five years or so toreally turn that over to the
camp instead of our our leaders,our teachers, just kind of
dictating what that looks like.
We're allowing our campers toshare with what they want to
share. So we often have childrenthat will stand in front 50
people for the first time andsing a new song, and we're right
(26:18):
there, but that that'sincredibly hard, and sometimes
it doesn't go well, and it'sreally uncomfortable, but that's
the important part, is whathappens right after it? So we
can say, oh, that didn't goexactly how you wanted, but look
how brave you were, and look howstrong you are, and and we get
(26:38):
to kind of craft what happensnext with with where they want
to go so they they get to learn,like, even one of the hardest
thing is like, when you fail,are you able to experience that
and to be sad and hurt? But thencan you trust someone enough to
(26:58):
have them work through that withyou and to make a plan to move
forward, and maybe evensometime, I've seen people try
again, and there's just a hugecelebration, and that person got
through something really hardthat could have been like a
barrier to their development,and actually gave them grit and
perseverance and developed thestrength for later in life so
(27:22):
that those happen daily. Sharingan idea in front of you know,
your peers is always hard, youknow, I that's one of my
favorite parts of the job. Islike that project is so amazing.
Would you be willing to justtalk about that at the end of
(27:42):
the days and tell all the othercamp groups what you're doing,
and they're allowed to say yesor no, but providing that
opportunity to take that risk,to be in front of others, and
then I I mean, we lead adventuretrips, and where we go from, you
know, doing one night camp outsto nine days immersed in the
(28:06):
back country in the wildernessof Michigan, and children learn
a lot about themselves. Theythey're often going where they
don't know any of the othergroup mates, and then they're
trying something physically thatthey haven't ever attempted to
do before. And then it's, it'sour job to build that, that
(28:30):
group, that supportive group, tohelp them overcome, you know,
physically, not even a beingable to do that, and maybe have
to build some accommodations,but then to be all right with
that and know that, you know, wecan still try again. We can try
a different way. We're designingall kinds of different trips to
(28:52):
have these different experiencesthat have children even push
their limits a little bit, be alittle uncomfortable to learn
learn more about themselves. So
Julie Cunningham (29:06):
those are two great examples. Thank you,
Steve, and that, I think they'regreat examples, because it
really sort of doesn't matterwhat age person you put in that
example, right? It could, youcould just as easily be talking
about an adult who's afraid togo try something new, or to talk
in public, or to take the risk.
And so, yeah, those are great.
(29:29):
Thank you.
Steve Frisbee (29:30):
I think the other thing that makes it work so
well, and having been to yourcamps and spend a lot of time at
your preschool, I've seen whatthat risk taking looks like in
action. And something I thinkthat's hard, it's a hard
clarification, is that it's notthe child against the task, it's
you and the child you know kindof approaching that task. And so
(29:53):
the risk taking happens whenthat child knows they have the
safety net of the adult, andyou're not bailing them out,
right? Like. Not singing thesong for them, but you're there
as a safe person for them, totalk about their frustrations,
to feel like that didn't gowell, to to hear their grief or
their concerns about the failurethat they had, and then to be
there to support them andproblem solve with them, a way
(30:16):
to try again. And I think one ofthe stark differences I noticed
coming from formal education toinformal is that the
circumstances allowed me to beon that side of the student so
much more easily, right? Like itwasn't me in the math problem
against the child, it's thatchild is learning something new,
and I'm right there with them,kind of supporting them along
(30:37):
the way. And so sometimes I hearteachers say, like, well, we
have to make things hard forkids. And if we make it easy and
they confuse or like, assumethat the support, being a
supportive adult means that itwon't be risky. But in your
situation, you're like, Hey,your circumstances are risk.
This is uncomfortable. This isthe difficult thing. I don't
(30:59):
have to contrive risk for themby making it seem harder and
saying, Well, you're on yourown. So I think the thing that
makes it work so well for you isjust the magic of how supportive
your staff is able to be. Do youuse a curriculum or, like, a
discipline? I know discipline isnot the word I'm looking for,
but like, a Conscious Disciplinetype approach with your staff,
(31:22):
yeah, we, we, we absolutely fellin love with Dr Beck. Doctor
Becky Bailey's ConsciousDiscipline on just it's based in
brain research. It's gives youLanguage Tools. It allows you to
have some tools when it's reallyuncomfortable, of what you might
(31:45):
say. So that has beeninstrumental in helping us
navigate really hard situations.
One of her you know, hours isthe power of positive intent and
just even changing the way youchoose to think about a
circumstance or a situation thatsomething happens, you can
(32:07):
choose to think it in a positiveway or a negative way. And this
is life changing for ourteachers, and if we're modeling
that for our students, that justit helps. I will say that's one
of the hardest things of my jobis to have new teachers come
along and they want kids to behappy and to be struggle free,
(32:29):
and as like, Oh, you. You signedup for a camp that believes that
struggle is necessary and andwe're going to sit in really
hard feelings, and we're notgoing to solve problems
necessarily for a child, butwe're going to be partners, and
(32:51):
we're going to we'll go do theheavy lifting of that. You know,
that weight of, you know,acknowledging feelings and
emotions and talking throughupset and and allowing the child
to kind of own that process. Soit's, it's it's challenging.
What gives me hope is some ofthese students have been
(33:12):
learning these skills since theywere three, and I've witnessed
them learn these skills. Soyeah, they have those
scripts from their campcounselors in their head so
they're more readily becausethat voice is inside. Julie, did
we miss any questions? I know wedeviated. Or Steve, do we miss
anything touch on? Well,
Julie Cunningham (33:31):
I think, I mean, we have skipped or sort of
blurred the lines on somequestions, as we have 10 have a
tendency to do, but I the sortof a question at the end. The
final question was kind of, andI think this would be helpful
for listeners like, what areways in which parents or
teachers or camp counselors,people who work with youth,
(33:56):
right? How can maybe withoutformal training. What are ways
in which they can be supportiveof young people's community? And
I know you've mentioned a numberof them, Steve throughout the
podcast, but maybe if we couldjust draw attention to some of
those ways in which sometakeaways for people who are
listening.
Steve Frisbee (34:16):
Yeah, I absolutely love this question.
I'm very passionate about this,and I think this is what I kind
of discovered throughout,throughout my careers, is we, we
have to be connected, parents,educators in the community. We
have to open up our environmentsto each other and look at each
other as partners to Yes, wehave to have safe environments,
(34:41):
but the most impact I've seen isthrough nature. Preschool is
where parents volunteeralongside teachers in the space,
and there's not one side thatknows more. They just have
different strengths indifferent. Knowledges and
different perspectives, and whenwe're listening to and working
(35:04):
together, that's when we learnthe most. So I've seen families
that have come in and sharedtheir life experience with us
that has changed me, how Icommunicate with families. And
then on the flip side, I've seenthem, you know what they value,
what they value with their timewith their child change like
(35:27):
I've watched the family go fromparking as close as they can to
the building to parking at thevery end of a parking lot, so
they get an extra 10 minutes ontrail to nature preschool with
their child, and they'reintentionally choosing to slow
down to kind of like, allow thechild a little bit of freedom.
(35:49):
And that's transformative. So ifthey start valuing these kind of
environments, they're going toadvocate for them more. So when
they go off to school, theyadvocate to their next teachers
on you know, my child reallyneeds three recesses, so I saw
in my in my career, go from onerecess. Now my elementary school
(36:11):
has three recesses, and theyhave an outdoor learning space.
And so it takes time, and we'vegot to be patient, but if we're
in it together, we're learningand listening to each other.
That's where that support andtrust comes in.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. Thank you for
(36:33):
listening. You can findimportant links and information
in our show notes. You
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