March 10, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode of Teach Wonder, we explore the powerful intersection of agency, playful learning, and social interactions. Drawing from our experiences in Iceland and classroom observations, we dive into how stepping back as educators can create rich, organic learning communities. Discover how giving students choice and autonomy can lead to more meaningful peer interactions, deeper engagement, and joyful learning experiences. Whether you're an educator, parent, or curious learner, this episode offers insights into fostering environments where children can explore, connect, and grow together.
Pedagogy of Play - Diagram on page 50
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other music: Pixabay
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie Cunningham (00:00):
I think, although sometimes we tend to
(00:02):
talk about things in isolation,with very concrete sort of
evaluations or assessments atthe end, right? Really, there's
this overall child we're talkingabout who, in order to be
prepared for their future needsmany of these skills. Okay, now
we're recording so
Unknown (00:26):
welcome to teach wonder. Yes,
Ashley O'Neil (00:31):
welcome to teach wonder, a
Unknown (00:36):
podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie
Cunningham. You. Music.
Ashley O'Neil (00:46):
So we've been on a bit of a hiatus. Thank you for
your patience, as the gapbetween last season and this
season is a little bit longerthan normal, but we're back, and
we're really excited to talk toyou about a related topic, but a
bit of a pivot, a bit of ashift. So all last season, we
talked about agency. We talkedabout fostering a sense of
(01:07):
ownership in whatevereducational space you're in. We
talked about championing ourstudents as sense makers, and we
really pulled in some of thepatterns that we saw from our
trip to Iceland. We talked a lotabout the thoughtful observation
that those practitioners did,where they would wait and
observe and really look at whatwas happening before they jumped
in to intervene in a classroomsituation. We talked about our
(01:30):
culture and the community neededto create a space for education.
We talked a lot about howchildren are experts of their
own needs. We had several guestson who articulated that really
well. If you haven't had achance to listen to those
episodes, we really recommendthose particularly if you're
thinking about getting childrenoutside or getting kids to take
risks. And we talked a lot abouthow the outdoor space is a
(01:53):
uniquely perfect environment forfostering agency. So this
season, we are, yeah,
Julie Cunningham (02:01):
so Ashley mentioned that we're pivoting a
bit. So we're pivoting to, Iwould say, almost the other side
of the coin, right? So the we'repivoting from agency to look at
social interaction. And we havethree driving questions that we
want to talk about. So what doesagency have to do with social
(02:22):
interactions? Or how are agencyand social interactions related?
Why is playful learning avaluable tool or framework for
all educators? And again, I willgo back to then. What does that
have to do with both agency andsocial interactions, right? And
then, how can a community thatsupports agency and playful
learning be facilitated. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (02:44):
So a lot of our series last time was talked. We
talked about stepping back withintention to make space for
learners, like when we thefacilitator, are in the front,
and kind of orchestrating thesocial interactions,
orchestrating the learning pace,how that doesn't really leave a
lot of room for students. And sowe talked about facilitating
flow, getting students to reallyget into that space of learning
(03:08):
where they're really focused ona task yet relaxed, and how we
can support their activeengagement. And this time, we're
really talking about thoseinteractions with learners and
individuals and what they dowith each other. And because we
know that as much as thatindependence, doing things on
their own is really valuable,doing things with other people,
that social acts aspect oflearning matters too. So this
(03:32):
season, I think the great wordthat we could use is that we're
talking about community.
Julie Cunningham (03:37):
Yeah, I agree, and I want to just share a story
that came to my mind, eventhough this is from Iceland
again, and we sort of said wewere pivoting off of Iceland. It
really could be from anywhere.
It wasn't specific to Iceland,just means that I saw it there.
But the last evening, we wereenjoying our group around a
campfire in a schoolyard at aschool that had a lot of outside
(04:01):
areas specifically for forchildren, for their students,
and many of these schools weresituated in a neighborhood, so
there were some students whocame by the schoolyard who were
older students than would attendthat school, and we were a group
of probably 2025, adults sittingaround having conversation, but
(04:27):
that didn't stop them fromasking if they could like play
on the playground equipment. Butby playground equipment I mean
like stumps or posts in theground that were at different
heights, right? So although itwas intended for student play,
it wasn't like a swing set or aslide. It wasn't your typical
(04:47):
playground equipment. Anyway, mypoint is that these middle
school kids did not interrupt usin any way. They asked simply,
could they be over there playingon the equipment? And. And was
probably like 1020, feet behindus, so we could still hear them.
And they proceeded to make theirown game with their own rules
and to not argue about therules, like as the rules were
(05:09):
negotiated, right? So theycommunicated the rules to one
another. They had this made upgame about how you went around
on these different stumps, andlike, who won and who had to
move off the different stump,and there was no arguing, no
disagreement, or if the if therewas disagreement, there was
(05:29):
renegotiation, right? It wasn'tan obvious disagreement. And
then after a while, they cameand sat around the fire with the
adults. They knew the teachersfrom that school, and we could
hear a mom from the apartmentbuilding behind us yell for her
child to come in for dinner. Soit was like clear that this was
(05:50):
part of the neighborhood andpart of something that would go
on regularly, but I just thinkthat's a nice way to talk about
these all of these youth hadautonomy over what was happening
with their evening, and yetnegotiated this playful learning
and this community of theirplayful learning through their
(06:13):
game. Yeah, and
Ashley O'Neil (06:15):
I think the other piece of that that really struck
me was so there were two adults,two teachers from that school.
One would have been like thecomparative to our principal,
and then the other one was theoutdoor educator, and here they
were kind of leading a bignight. They had a responsibility
to walk us through this evening.
They had dinner for us, and theywere kind of leading like a
(06:38):
discussion around the fire. Andit would have been very easy for
them to want to focus on thatadult portion and the joy and
just like true welcoming thatthey had when they saw those
kids there right like they wereso excited to see them. They
were so delighted to have themstop by. They invited them to
come sit by the fire with us,and just kind of enveloped them
in and you could tell that thatwas just a really natural like,
(07:00):
of course, of course, these kidsare going to be here. Of course
we're going to be excited to seethem. Of course we'll ask them
to stay. And that openinvitation where the students
both wanted to be there, andthen the adults reinforced that
joy was really nice. And then we
Julie Cunningham (07:19):
took a look also at the pedagogy of play
book by project zero, which isout of Harvard. And there is a
diagram that also, I think,resonated with us, in terms of,
it's like a Venn diagram ofthree different areas, so
exploring the unknown, leadinglearning and then finding joy.
(07:42):
And Ashley just mentioned thatfinding joy,
Ashley O'Neil (07:44):
yeah, and we will link that graphic in the show
notes, so that you can have thatvisual alongside this
conversation. But really thisidea of playful learning, which
came up a lot last semester inour conversation, and just comes
up in our space in general. Weknow I remember a hearing in
like edu 107 my freshman year,that when kids learn through
(08:06):
play, it takes much, many fewerrepetitions of an of a thing, of
a concept, to understand it thanif they learn in under duress or
in a more stressful environment,right? And I think that we as
educators, it can be really easyto dismiss or to minimize or to
make joy and delight andenjoyment to take a back seat to
(08:27):
learning, because learning feelsso serious, and it feels like we
have so many things to get doneand so many things to do. And so
I think for us, posturing thisplayful learning and community
and agency and saying it mattersthat students have choice and
ownership. It matters that theyhave wonder, that they're making
meaning, that they're exploringthe unknown, and it matters that
(08:47):
they find joy in that activity.
I think reminding ourselves thatit is a three legged stool that
functions the best is reallypowerful, but
Julie Cunningham (08:55):
also it helps us situate playful learning at
the center of those three sortof bubbles, or those three sort
of areas, and it helps me tothink about, how is this leading
learning, this choice,ownership, empowerment and
autonomy. How is that related tocommunity and then also to the
(09:20):
other pieces of exploration andfinding joy.
Ashley O'Neil (09:25):
The other thing I want to bring up from that
playful learning the same sourceis the characteristics of play
and how learning and play issocial, and we're looking the
characteristics as defined bythat source. Is finding joy,
making meaning. Is that playfullearning iterative? So do
students get to revisit things?
Are they actively engaged, andis there social interaction? And
(09:46):
we talk about the fact that weknow that students learn from
others and by encountering newperspectives and ways of
thinking. And so individual worksupports that, but so does small
group. Work, and so does wholegroup work, and so do formal and
informal interactions. So oneother thing we're thinking about
(10:09):
when it comes to playfulpedagogy, not to that we're
trying to make a case for you alittle bit, but I think we're
just trying to lay thegroundwork for where these
conversations are headed, and totry to create a through line for
you to see how we can go fromgiving students what feels like
a very individualized thing ofagency and choice to thinking
about the collective or thinkingwith the group. Is that when we
(10:30):
give students and when weapproach learning in this
playful way, we can use play tobuild relationships. And I don't
mean I know if I say play, youhave a maybe a stereotypical
thing in your head, right? Maybeit's a young child. Maybe it's
the play that you see in yourown space, but I want you to
think of playfulness. So if weuse playfulness to build
(10:53):
relationships, we can encouragestudents to have positive
relationships with us as theadults in the space, but also
meaningful relationships withtheir peers. We can facilitate
purposeful conversations tobuild knowledge. So if we're
focusing on creating a communityand creating a respectful
(11:14):
community where the students cantalk with each other and they
can speak with us, we're alsofostering that culture of
feedback. So I hear all the timeteachers say that they want
students to be reflective abouttheir own work. They want them
to be able to critique eachother and be reflective about
what's going on. But how do weget there? And we can give
students sentence frames, we cangive students talking structures
(11:37):
to work inside of but it's a lotharder for us to facilitate
that, that intangible thingwhere students feel safe and
trusted, where students feellike they can share with each
other, that I can give andreceive feedback, and it will be
done in a respectful andpositive way. And again, that
piece, if we go back to thatVenn diagram, a bit of that is
(11:58):
finding joy and the communitythat we've created that comes
from that joyful place, I'm muchmore likely to receive feedback
from someone, to learn from myown mistakes, to learn from the
experiences of others, if Itrust them, if I enjoy their
company. And that's not to saythat we're expecting our
(12:18):
students to be best friends allthe time, but what we are saying
is it's really important when wethink about the type of
community that facilitates andfosters that positive learning.
So with that in mind, we want tomake a case, and we want to talk
and explore more about howagency in the classroom affects
how we build classroomcommunity. And I just want to
(12:40):
take a minute and share anexample. That I'm thinking about
from our own space, because wehave been thinking about this a
lot and putting some tools, orsome I don't know, practices
into place on our own work hereto see how this works. So we
oftentimes we have field trips.
So field trips are a one off,but we also have an ongoing
(13:03):
group of homeschool students whocome once a month. And with that
homeschool group, I work withthe younger group, so ages four
to seven, we may have an eightyear old now. We probably have
had a birthday, but mostly it'sages four to seven, and I have
been taking a lot of that advicefrom last semester to heart
about fostering their agency andtheir independence. So I've been
(13:24):
working on intentionallystepping back, pausing and
making observations before Iintervene in any social
interaction, and really tryingto facilitate their own
independence. And interestingly,as I have done that a community
has taken shape, and I thinkthat in large part, I can see
(13:44):
the through line between mystepping back and making more
space for student independenceand the community that has come
from that the students, when wehad done this activity, we had a
community, a similar group. Inyears past, the students didn't
all know each other's names.
They met once a month, and wemet for a whole year, and by the
end, they didn't really knoweach other's names, despite me
doing some tricks with popsiclesticks and naming everybody and
(14:07):
having those intentionalconversations and trying really
overtly to foster thatcommunity. But this time in my
stepping back, the students havetalked to each other more. They
have interacted with each othermore. It has created more space
for them to negotiate play rulesand activities that they have
wanted to do. I've seen thembranch out and form connections
over the choices that they'remaking. So they have a lot of
(14:32):
choice when they first come intoour activity. I have an
invitation on the table, but ifthey're not interested, there
are other things that are set upfor them to do. And I've seen
students form friendships orform relationships, because they
both are interested in buildingwith the fort boards, and
they're both interested increating some sort of game in
the rice bin. And in doing that,the less space I take up, I can
(14:53):
see that their personalities arejust really blossoming. And the
community. Has come from that,and the social interactions that
have come from that are whatwe've been wanting. But when I
tried to build it, and I likehad all these really intentional
community building things, itfelt contrived and it always I
was the point at which all of ithad to revolve around. Now that
(15:15):
I've removed myself and leftspace for the students, what I
can see is a much more authenticand organic set of interactions
with the students, because theyrely on each other. They ask
each other for help before theyask me. They ask each other to
play before they ask me. Andthat has been a really beautiful
thing to see. I was,
Julie Cunningham (15:36):
I think Ashley articulated a lot of the pieces
there, the making it anauthentic situation, right? And
allowing the community to sortof build itself around a shared
experience or experiences? And Iwas also thinking that if I'm a
listener, I might say, Okay,you're talking about playful
(15:58):
learning and playfulness, andyou're talking about informal
education, essentially right bythis, these field trips that are
not in a K 12 classroom. So Ilike to try to also situate it
in terms of like what it mightlook like with content in a K 12
classroom. And so for me,science is my background. So
(16:21):
it's simplest for me to thinkabout science content, but
listeners, you all are contentexperts in your own area, and
I'm sure you can translate thisinto your areas as well. So I
think about inquiry and scienceas being a way of allowing
students to be playful or toengage with the material in a
(16:44):
way that we might say could besort of like learning through
play, right? Because if thereare, if they are allowed to
interact with materials in a waythat doesn't have a set outcome,
like it doesn't have a teachergoal, but rather it's what can
you discover, or how can youlook for patterns, or what do
(17:08):
you see happening? Then that'smore playful than measure this
data to make this graph orwhatever the other outcome might
be, right? So if it's a smallgroup work, and they have a
community in which they'rehaving to work together for a
shared goal, and they havematerials to interact with in a
(17:28):
way that we would say is inquirybased, then you've set yourself
up for this community needs oneanother to be successful. And if
there's classroom norms in whichwe work with one another in a
way that's respectful towardsour goal, I don't think it's
(17:50):
really hard to see that theoutcome of that would be a
community driven classroom wherestudents were able to
investigate or go throughinquiry for your science concept
or your math concept, orwhatever your content is, in
such a way that they're lookingto meet the goal using one
(18:13):
another's experiences andknowledge.
Ashley O'Neil (18:16):
And I think another example that comes to
mind as you were talking aboutit, I was recently in a
kindergarten classroom, and thatkindergarten teacher, because
you say you think of scienceright away, I actually think of
language arts, which is probablydue to my background. But this
teacher is a kindergartenteacher, and for literacy
(18:36):
stations, she was just findingthat something about it wasn't
working. And so rather thanhaving students in set groups
kind of rotate through. You seethat a lot in classrooms, right?
Like I'm the blue group, and soI go to the station and the
station is the station. That'swhat I did when I was teaching
kindergarten and first grade.
She has a schedule by which sheand her pair Pro will pull
students throughout the week,and so they know that what group
(19:00):
they're in and what when they'recoming to her table for small
work, small group work, butuntil it's their time to be
pulled they have free choiceover the space. She has
different stations set outdifferent activities. Some of
them are very related toliteracy. Some of them are are
what you would think of as amore traditional PlayStation,
and the students get to choosewhere they go, how long they
(19:22):
stay there, when they move, andthey can do all of those
negotiations. And she found twothings were happening. Thing One
was that her small group timewith the students that she had
at her table was much was ofhigher quality, meaning that she
wasn't going over andinterrupting and dealing with
social interactions ornavigating frustrations that
(19:44):
students had at the station thatthey were at, or helping them
find their space, right? I'vebeen in those situations where
you're up and down and up anddown and helping kids and your
actual literacy small group timeat that table is interrupted a
million times, right? So. Sothat was one thing, but then the
other piece was the studentswere much more they were
engaging with each other in somereally interesting ways. She saw
(20:09):
that that playfulness resultedin more sophisticated social
interactions between the two,between the students. She was
able to see that they werenegotiating sharing things and
all of those skills that youwant a kindergartner to learn,
or wish that they would come tokindergarten with right, the
social navigations that theyhave to do for is it my turn?
Can I go to this place? Do Ineed to clean up my materials
(20:30):
when I'm done right? All ofthose things were happening much
more readily, and the studentswere managing themselves and
each other in a really positiveway. Then the other thing that
she found is when those studentscame to the table, they were in
a really good space headspace todo that tough literacy work,
right? They had all this timefor choice. They had these
really positive socialinteractions with their peers,
(20:51):
and then when they came to thetable, they were really ready to
do the work that she had there.
So I think it's a great exampleof how stepping back, giving
choice, resulted in more socialinteractions and a building of a
community where the studentswere really working together in
a positive way, and how itincreased productivity for them
(21:13):
to be ready to learn, which is Iget as a classroom educator,
we've got to do both thingsright and do Both things really
Julie Cunningham (21:19):
well. That's a really interesting example,
because you talk both aboutautonomy, choice for where I
want to go and what I want to dowith my time, as well as the
community social interactions,the community of the peer
interactions, but also thecommunity of the general
classroom, right? And then thecommunity of how the students
(21:41):
were then working with the orthe social interactions of how
the teacher then was interactingwith the students and the the
more productive time. But I alsothink then, when I think about
setting up a space like that,right? So the other thing that
the other conversation thatoften comes up when we talk
about any sort of change in theclassroom, or any sort of
(22:04):
consideration of differentdynamics, right? Is this okay?
So where is my time as a teacherput in? And it sounds like
really my time as a teacher inthis case, is put in upfront
right to really intentionalsetup and planning of what will
those stations look like, andhow do I set it up so that
(22:25):
students will feel engaged andinterested, right and joyful,
perhaps while they're at thosestations, but then also be ready
to work with me as theinstructor when I indicate that
it's their time to work with me,which sounds like it was
communicated in advance as well.
But then secondarily, like, whattime do I give up in my
(22:50):
classroom? And how do I get thatback in terms of learning,
right? So? So if we're going tosay, as a instructor, like, I'm
gonna give up some time in myday to essentially allow
students to engage in what we'recalling playful learning,
engagement and joy and socialinteractions, being all of a
(23:12):
part of it. Right then what I'mgetting back is this in depth
time when the students are withme. And so I think sometimes we
talk about time as though, likethere's some sort of
equivalency, or there's somesort of like, if I give this up,
I should get this back, right,whereas in this case, we're
(23:35):
maybe giving time to thestudents, but also the
productivity, the more engagedtime is what we're getting back
Ashley O'Neil (23:46):
Absolutely. And I know I was in two school
districts in which we had tohave these, like 90 minute
literacy blocks, right? And Iremember thinking, okay, all of
my stations have to have thisoutcome. And so they were all
really academic tasks. And yes,I had stamps and different
modalities, and I tried to makeit fun with games and whatnot,
but they were all doing thesereally taxing literacy tasks the
(24:10):
entire time. And when I sawthese literacy stations in which
one could argue that studentswere doing less now, now that
I'm a more practice teacher, Iwould argue back that all of
those social interactions are alanguage arts skill, right, and
that we undervalue speaking andlistening, but I can see how on
paper, you would say, Well, theydidn't get through the three
(24:31):
worksheets that the other classgot to because the other
classroom had three worksheetsat their stations, and those
kids did those stations, but thefidelity, Which with they did
those right, I would arguematters. And I think over time
as a classroom teacher, I wouldrather have a really good 15
minutes of focused, intentional,regulated kids who wanted to be
(24:56):
there right and got the stuffdone and did it and felt really
good about. It then trying towork with students who are done
right, who are tired, who aredistracted, who are
dysregulated, who have donesomething at nauseum for an hour
and a half, and they need abreak. And so I think that's the
other part. When you talk aboutequivalencies, I think early
(25:18):
teacher me would say, gotta domy 90 minute literacy block. And
now I would say a 90 minuteliteracy block may still only
have 15 really good minutes init, so why don't we just go for
that really good 15 to 20minutes of literacy and give
those students that choice andthe autonomy that they need to
get there
Julie Cunningham (25:37):
Well, plus, I think you also have to, you
can't, I mean, take it as anisolated unit, or instance, or
your week, or your day, or yourhour, or whatever your your
chunk of time is, but look atthe investment towards the
future of your classroom also,right? So if your students are
engaged and finding joy, andtheir social interactions are
(25:59):
such that there's growth,because you've set them up in
such a way that they are talkingto one another and listening and
sharing and collaborating andcommunicating, right? Those are
all like an investment ofperhaps less skills that are
less able to be evaluated onsome sort of a report card,
(26:23):
perhaps. But also there's likethis investment, not only in
your classroom this year, butthen students growth towards the
next grade level. So I thinkalthough sometimes we tend to
talk about things in isolation,with very concrete sort of
evaluations or assessments atthe end, right? Really, there's
(26:45):
this overall child we're talkingabout, who, in order to be
prepared for their future, needsmany of these skills, and I know
we're not going here on ourpodcast today, but at a time in
which many of us spend a lot oftime on our electronic devices
(27:05):
and less time face to facesocially, these are skills that
don't perhaps get practiced Asmuch Absolutely,
Ashley O'Neil (27:21):
this has been another episode of teach wonder.
Thank you for listening. You canfind important links and
information in our show notes.
You.
I think, although sometimes we tend to
(00:02):
talk about things in isolation,with very concrete sort of
evaluations or assessments atthe end, right? Really, there's
this overall child we're talkingabout who, in order to be
prepared for their future needsmany of these skills. Okay, now
we're recording so
Unknown (00:26):
welcome to teach wonder. Yes,
Ashley O'Neil (00:31):
welcome to teach wonder, a
Unknown (00:36):
podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie
Cunningham. You. Music.
Ashley O'Neil (00:46):
So we've been on a bit of a hiatus. Thank you for
your patience, as the gapbetween last season and this
season is a little bit longerthan normal, but we're back, and
we're really excited to talk toyou about a related topic, but a
bit of a pivot, a bit of ashift. So all last season, we
talked about agency. We talkedabout fostering a sense of
(01:07):
ownership in whatevereducational space you're in. We
talked about championing ourstudents as sense makers, and we
really pulled in some of thepatterns that we saw from our
trip to Iceland. We talked a lotabout the thoughtful observation
that those practitioners did,where they would wait and
observe and really look at whatwas happening before they jumped
in to intervene in a classroomsituation. We talked about our
(01:30):
culture and the community neededto create a space for education.
We talked a lot about howchildren are experts of their
own needs. We had several guestson who articulated that really
well. If you haven't had achance to listen to those
episodes, we really recommendthose particularly if you're
thinking about getting childrenoutside or getting kids to take
risks. And we talked a lot abouthow the outdoor space is a
(01:53):
uniquely perfect environment forfostering agency. So this
season, we are, yeah,
Julie Cunningham (02:01):
so Ashley mentioned that we're pivoting a
bit. So we're pivoting to, Iwould say, almost the other side
of the coin, right? So the we'repivoting from agency to look at
social interaction. And we havethree driving questions that we
want to talk about. So what doesagency have to do with social
(02:22):
interactions? Or how are agencyand social interactions related?
Why is playful learning avaluable tool or framework for
all educators? And again, I willgo back to then. What does that
have to do with both agency andsocial interactions, right? And
then, how can a community thatsupports agency and playful
learning be facilitated. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (02:44):
So a lot of our series last time was talked. We
talked about stepping back withintention to make space for
learners, like when we thefacilitator, are in the front,
and kind of orchestrating thesocial interactions,
orchestrating the learning pace,how that doesn't really leave a
lot of room for students. And sowe talked about facilitating
flow, getting students to reallyget into that space of learning
(03:08):
where they're really focused ona task yet relaxed, and how we
can support their activeengagement. And this time, we're
really talking about thoseinteractions with learners and
individuals and what they dowith each other. And because we
know that as much as thatindependence, doing things on
their own is really valuable,doing things with other people,
that social acts aspect oflearning matters too. So this
(03:32):
season, I think the great wordthat we could use is that we're
talking about community.
Julie Cunningham (03:37):
Yeah, I agree, and I want to just share a story
that came to my mind, eventhough this is from Iceland
again, and we sort of said wewere pivoting off of Iceland. It
really could be from anywhere.
It wasn't specific to Iceland,just means that I saw it there.
But the last evening, we wereenjoying our group around a
campfire in a schoolyard at aschool that had a lot of outside
(04:01):
areas specifically for forchildren, for their students,
and many of these schools weresituated in a neighborhood, so
there were some students whocame by the schoolyard who were
older students than would attendthat school, and we were a group
of probably 2025, adults sittingaround having conversation, but
(04:27):
that didn't stop them fromasking if they could like play
on the playground equipment. Butby playground equipment I mean
like stumps or posts in theground that were at different
heights, right? So although itwas intended for student play,
it wasn't like a swing set or aslide. It wasn't your typical
(04:47):
playground equipment. Anyway, mypoint is that these middle
school kids did not interrupt usin any way. They asked simply,
could they be over there playingon the equipment? And. And was
probably like 1020, feet behindus, so we could still hear them.
And they proceeded to make theirown game with their own rules
and to not argue about therules, like as the rules were
(05:09):
negotiated, right? So theycommunicated the rules to one
another. They had this made upgame about how you went around
on these different stumps, andlike, who won and who had to
move off the different stump,and there was no arguing, no
disagreement, or if the if therewas disagreement, there was
(05:29):
renegotiation, right? It wasn'tan obvious disagreement. And
then after a while, they cameand sat around the fire with the
adults. They knew the teachersfrom that school, and we could
hear a mom from the apartmentbuilding behind us yell for her
child to come in for dinner. Soit was like clear that this was
(05:50):
part of the neighborhood andpart of something that would go
on regularly, but I just thinkthat's a nice way to talk about
these all of these youth hadautonomy over what was happening
with their evening, and yetnegotiated this playful learning
and this community of theirplayful learning through their
(06:13):
game. Yeah, and
Ashley O'Neil (06:15):
I think the other piece of that that really struck
me was so there were two adults,two teachers from that school.
One would have been like thecomparative to our principal,
and then the other one was theoutdoor educator, and here they
were kind of leading a bignight. They had a responsibility
to walk us through this evening.
They had dinner for us, and theywere kind of leading like a
(06:38):
discussion around the fire. Andit would have been very easy for
them to want to focus on thatadult portion and the joy and
just like true welcoming thatthey had when they saw those
kids there right like they wereso excited to see them. They
were so delighted to have themstop by. They invited them to
come sit by the fire with us,and just kind of enveloped them
in and you could tell that thatwas just a really natural like,
(07:00):
of course, of course, these kidsare going to be here. Of course
we're going to be excited to seethem. Of course we'll ask them
to stay. And that openinvitation where the students
both wanted to be there, andthen the adults reinforced that
joy was really nice. And then we
Julie Cunningham (07:19):
took a look also at the pedagogy of play
book by project zero, which isout of Harvard. And there is a
diagram that also, I think,resonated with us, in terms of,
it's like a Venn diagram ofthree different areas, so
exploring the unknown, leadinglearning and then finding joy.
(07:42):
And Ashley just mentioned thatfinding joy,
Ashley O'Neil (07:44):
yeah, and we will link that graphic in the show
notes, so that you can have thatvisual alongside this
conversation. But really thisidea of playful learning, which
came up a lot last semester inour conversation, and just comes
up in our space in general. Weknow I remember a hearing in
like edu 107 my freshman year,that when kids learn through
(08:06):
play, it takes much, many fewerrepetitions of an of a thing, of
a concept, to understand it thanif they learn in under duress or
in a more stressful environment,right? And I think that we as
educators, it can be really easyto dismiss or to minimize or to
make joy and delight andenjoyment to take a back seat to
(08:27):
learning, because learning feelsso serious, and it feels like we
have so many things to get doneand so many things to do. And so
I think for us, posturing thisplayful learning and community
and agency and saying it mattersthat students have choice and
ownership. It matters that theyhave wonder, that they're making
meaning, that they're exploringthe unknown, and it matters that
(08:47):
they find joy in that activity.
I think reminding ourselves thatit is a three legged stool that
functions the best is reallypowerful, but
Julie Cunningham (08:55):
also it helps us situate playful learning at
the center of those three sortof bubbles, or those three sort
of areas, and it helps me tothink about, how is this leading
learning, this choice,ownership, empowerment and
autonomy. How is that related tocommunity and then also to the
(09:20):
other pieces of exploration andfinding joy.
Ashley O'Neil (09:25):
The other thing I want to bring up from that
playful learning the same sourceis the characteristics of play
and how learning and play issocial, and we're looking the
characteristics as defined bythat source. Is finding joy,
making meaning. Is that playfullearning iterative? So do
students get to revisit things?
Are they actively engaged, andis there social interaction? And
(09:46):
we talk about the fact that weknow that students learn from
others and by encountering newperspectives and ways of
thinking. And so individual worksupports that, but so does small
group. Work, and so does wholegroup work, and so do formal and
informal interactions. So oneother thing we're thinking about
(10:09):
when it comes to playfulpedagogy, not to that we're
trying to make a case for you alittle bit, but I think we're
just trying to lay thegroundwork for where these
conversations are headed, and totry to create a through line for
you to see how we can go fromgiving students what feels like
a very individualized thing ofagency and choice to thinking
about the collective or thinkingwith the group. Is that when we
(10:30):
give students and when weapproach learning in this
playful way, we can use play tobuild relationships. And I don't
mean I know if I say play, youhave a maybe a stereotypical
thing in your head, right? Maybeit's a young child. Maybe it's
the play that you see in yourown space, but I want you to
think of playfulness. So if weuse playfulness to build
(10:53):
relationships, we can encouragestudents to have positive
relationships with us as theadults in the space, but also
meaningful relationships withtheir peers. We can facilitate
purposeful conversations tobuild knowledge. So if we're
focusing on creating a communityand creating a respectful
(11:14):
community where the students cantalk with each other and they
can speak with us, we're alsofostering that culture of
feedback. So I hear all the timeteachers say that they want
students to be reflective abouttheir own work. They want them
to be able to critique eachother and be reflective about
what's going on. But how do weget there? And we can give
students sentence frames, we cangive students talking structures
(11:37):
to work inside of but it's a lotharder for us to facilitate
that, that intangible thingwhere students feel safe and
trusted, where students feellike they can share with each
other, that I can give andreceive feedback, and it will be
done in a respectful andpositive way. And again, that
piece, if we go back to thatVenn diagram, a bit of that is
(11:58):
finding joy and the communitythat we've created that comes
from that joyful place, I'm muchmore likely to receive feedback
from someone, to learn from myown mistakes, to learn from the
experiences of others, if Itrust them, if I enjoy their
company. And that's not to saythat we're expecting our
(12:18):
students to be best friends allthe time, but what we are saying
is it's really important when wethink about the type of
community that facilitates andfosters that positive learning.
So with that in mind, we want tomake a case, and we want to talk
and explore more about howagency in the classroom affects
how we build classroomcommunity. And I just want to
(12:40):
take a minute and share anexample. That I'm thinking about
from our own space, because wehave been thinking about this a
lot and putting some tools, orsome I don't know, practices
into place on our own work hereto see how this works. So we
oftentimes we have field trips.
So field trips are a one off,but we also have an ongoing
(13:03):
group of homeschool students whocome once a month. And with that
homeschool group, I work withthe younger group, so ages four
to seven, we may have an eightyear old now. We probably have
had a birthday, but mostly it'sages four to seven, and I have
been taking a lot of that advicefrom last semester to heart
about fostering their agency andtheir independence. So I've been
(13:24):
working on intentionallystepping back, pausing and
making observations before Iintervene in any social
interaction, and really tryingto facilitate their own
independence. And interestingly,as I have done that a community
has taken shape, and I thinkthat in large part, I can see
(13:44):
the through line between mystepping back and making more
space for student independenceand the community that has come
from that the students, when wehad done this activity, we had a
community, a similar group. Inyears past, the students didn't
all know each other's names.
They met once a month, and wemet for a whole year, and by the
end, they didn't really knoweach other's names, despite me
doing some tricks with popsiclesticks and naming everybody and
(14:07):
having those intentionalconversations and trying really
overtly to foster thatcommunity. But this time in my
stepping back, the students havetalked to each other more. They
have interacted with each othermore. It has created more space
for them to negotiate play rulesand activities that they have
wanted to do. I've seen thembranch out and form connections
over the choices that they'remaking. So they have a lot of
(14:32):
choice when they first come intoour activity. I have an
invitation on the table, but ifthey're not interested, there
are other things that are set upfor them to do. And I've seen
students form friendships orform relationships, because they
both are interested in buildingwith the fort boards, and
they're both interested increating some sort of game in
the rice bin. And in doing that,the less space I take up, I can
(14:53):
see that their personalities arejust really blossoming. And the
community. Has come from that,and the social interactions that
have come from that are whatwe've been wanting. But when I
tried to build it, and I likehad all these really intentional
community building things, itfelt contrived and it always I
was the point at which all of ithad to revolve around. Now that
(15:15):
I've removed myself and leftspace for the students, what I
can see is a much more authenticand organic set of interactions
with the students, because theyrely on each other. They ask
each other for help before theyask me. They ask each other to
play before they ask me. Andthat has been a really beautiful
thing to see. I was,
Julie Cunningham (15:36):
I think Ashley articulated a lot of the pieces
there, the making it anauthentic situation, right? And
allowing the community to sortof build itself around a shared
experience or experiences? And Iwas also thinking that if I'm a
listener, I might say, Okay,you're talking about playful
(15:58):
learning and playfulness, andyou're talking about informal
education, essentially right bythis, these field trips that are
not in a K 12 classroom. So Ilike to try to also situate it
in terms of like what it mightlook like with content in a K 12
classroom. And so for me,science is my background. So
(16:21):
it's simplest for me to thinkabout science content, but
listeners, you all are contentexperts in your own area, and
I'm sure you can translate thisinto your areas as well. So I
think about inquiry and scienceas being a way of allowing
students to be playful or toengage with the material in a
(16:44):
way that we might say could besort of like learning through
play, right? Because if thereare, if they are allowed to
interact with materials in a waythat doesn't have a set outcome,
like it doesn't have a teachergoal, but rather it's what can
you discover, or how can youlook for patterns, or what do
(17:08):
you see happening? Then that'smore playful than measure this
data to make this graph orwhatever the other outcome might
be, right? So if it's a smallgroup work, and they have a
community in which they'rehaving to work together for a
shared goal, and they havematerials to interact with in a
(17:28):
way that we would say is inquirybased, then you've set yourself
up for this community needs oneanother to be successful. And if
there's classroom norms in whichwe work with one another in a
way that's respectful towardsour goal, I don't think it's
(17:50):
really hard to see that theoutcome of that would be a
community driven classroom wherestudents were able to
investigate or go throughinquiry for your science concept
or your math concept, orwhatever your content is, in
such a way that they're lookingto meet the goal using one
(18:13):
another's experiences andknowledge.
Ashley O'Neil (18:16):
And I think another example that comes to
mind as you were talking aboutit, I was recently in a
kindergarten classroom, and thatkindergarten teacher, because
you say you think of scienceright away, I actually think of
language arts, which is probablydue to my background. But this
teacher is a kindergartenteacher, and for literacy
(18:36):
stations, she was just findingthat something about it wasn't
working. And so rather thanhaving students in set groups
kind of rotate through. You seethat a lot in classrooms, right?
Like I'm the blue group, and soI go to the station and the
station is the station. That'swhat I did when I was teaching
kindergarten and first grade.
She has a schedule by which sheand her pair Pro will pull
students throughout the week,and so they know that what group
(19:00):
they're in and what when they'recoming to her table for small
work, small group work, butuntil it's their time to be
pulled they have free choiceover the space. She has
different stations set outdifferent activities. Some of
them are very related toliteracy. Some of them are are
what you would think of as amore traditional PlayStation,
and the students get to choosewhere they go, how long they
(19:22):
stay there, when they move, andthey can do all of those
negotiations. And she found twothings were happening. Thing One
was that her small group timewith the students that she had
at her table was much was ofhigher quality, meaning that she
wasn't going over andinterrupting and dealing with
social interactions ornavigating frustrations that
(19:44):
students had at the station thatthey were at, or helping them
find their space, right? I'vebeen in those situations where
you're up and down and up anddown and helping kids and your
actual literacy small group timeat that table is interrupted a
million times, right? So. Sothat was one thing, but then the
other piece was the studentswere much more they were
engaging with each other in somereally interesting ways. She saw
(20:09):
that that playfulness resultedin more sophisticated social
interactions between the two,between the students. She was
able to see that they werenegotiating sharing things and
all of those skills that youwant a kindergartner to learn,
or wish that they would come tokindergarten with right, the
social navigations that theyhave to do for is it my turn?
Can I go to this place? Do Ineed to clean up my materials
(20:30):
when I'm done right? All ofthose things were happening much
more readily, and the studentswere managing themselves and
each other in a really positiveway. Then the other thing that
she found is when those studentscame to the table, they were in
a really good space headspace todo that tough literacy work,
right? They had all this timefor choice. They had these
really positive socialinteractions with their peers,
(20:51):
and then when they came to thetable, they were really ready to
do the work that she had there.
So I think it's a great exampleof how stepping back, giving
choice, resulted in more socialinteractions and a building of a
community where the studentswere really working together in
a positive way, and how itincreased productivity for them
(21:13):
to be ready to learn, which is Iget as a classroom educator,
we've got to do both thingsright and do Both things really
Julie Cunningham (21:19):
well. That's a really interesting example,
because you talk both aboutautonomy, choice for where I
want to go and what I want to dowith my time, as well as the
community social interactions,the community of the peer
interactions, but also thecommunity of the general
classroom, right? And then thecommunity of how the students
(21:41):
were then working with the orthe social interactions of how
the teacher then was interactingwith the students and the the
more productive time. But I alsothink then, when I think about
setting up a space like that,right? So the other thing that
the other conversation thatoften comes up when we talk
about any sort of change in theclassroom, or any sort of
(22:04):
consideration of differentdynamics, right? Is this okay?
So where is my time as a teacherput in? And it sounds like
really my time as a teacher inthis case, is put in upfront
right to really intentionalsetup and planning of what will
those stations look like, andhow do I set it up so that
(22:25):
students will feel engaged andinterested, right and joyful,
perhaps while they're at thosestations, but then also be ready
to work with me as theinstructor when I indicate that
it's their time to work with me,which sounds like it was
communicated in advance as well.
But then secondarily, like, whattime do I give up in my
(22:50):
classroom? And how do I get thatback in terms of learning,
right? So? So if we're going tosay, as a instructor, like, I'm
gonna give up some time in myday to essentially allow
students to engage in what we'recalling playful learning,
engagement and joy and socialinteractions, being all of a
(23:12):
part of it. Right then what I'mgetting back is this in depth
time when the students are withme. And so I think sometimes we
talk about time as though, likethere's some sort of
equivalency, or there's somesort of like, if I give this up,
I should get this back, right,whereas in this case, we're
(23:35):
maybe giving time to thestudents, but also the
productivity, the more engagedtime is what we're getting back
Ashley O'Neil (23:46):
Absolutely. And I know I was in two school
districts in which we had tohave these, like 90 minute
literacy blocks, right? And Iremember thinking, okay, all of
my stations have to have thisoutcome. And so they were all
really academic tasks. And yes,I had stamps and different
modalities, and I tried to makeit fun with games and whatnot,
but they were all doing thesereally taxing literacy tasks the
(24:10):
entire time. And when I sawthese literacy stations in which
one could argue that studentswere doing less now, now that
I'm a more practice teacher, Iwould argue back that all of
those social interactions are alanguage arts skill, right, and
that we undervalue speaking andlistening, but I can see how on
paper, you would say, Well, theydidn't get through the three
(24:31):
worksheets that the other classgot to because the other
classroom had three worksheetsat their stations, and those
kids did those stations, but thefidelity, Which with they did
those right, I would arguematters. And I think over time
as a classroom teacher, I wouldrather have a really good 15
minutes of focused, intentional,regulated kids who wanted to be
(24:56):
there right and got the stuffdone and did it and felt really
good about. It then trying towork with students who are done
right, who are tired, who aredistracted, who are
dysregulated, who have donesomething at nauseum for an hour
and a half, and they need abreak. And so I think that's the
other part. When you talk aboutequivalencies, I think early
(25:18):
teacher me would say, gotta domy 90 minute literacy block. And
now I would say a 90 minuteliteracy block may still only
have 15 really good minutes init, so why don't we just go for
that really good 15 to 20minutes of literacy and give
those students that choice andthe autonomy that they need to
get there
Julie Cunningham (25:37):
Well, plus, I think you also have to, you
can't, I mean, take it as anisolated unit, or instance, or
your week, or your day, or yourhour, or whatever your your
chunk of time is, but look atthe investment towards the
future of your classroom also,right? So if your students are
engaged and finding joy, andtheir social interactions are
(25:59):
such that there's growth,because you've set them up in
such a way that they are talkingto one another and listening and
sharing and collaborating andcommunicating, right? Those are
all like an investment ofperhaps less skills that are
less able to be evaluated onsome sort of a report card,
(26:23):
perhaps. But also there's likethis investment, not only in
your classroom this year, butthen students growth towards the
next grade level. So I thinkalthough sometimes we tend to
talk about things in isolation,with very concrete sort of
evaluations or assessments atthe end, right? Really, there's
(26:45):
this overall child we're talkingabout, who, in order to be
prepared for their future, needsmany of these skills, and I know
we're not going here on ourpodcast today, but at a time in
which many of us spend a lot oftime on our electronic devices
(27:05):
and less time face to facesocially, these are skills that
don't perhaps get practiced Asmuch Absolutely,
Ashley O'Neil (27:21):
this has been another episode of teach wonder.
Thank you for listening. You canfind important links and
information in our show notes.
You.
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