November 4, 2024 • 26 mins
In the second portion of our interview, we're deepening our conversation with Dr. Corey Drake. We discuss the role we play as educators, how peers and students impact each other, and how the environment and content play a part.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Corey Drake (00:00):
And assuming that when I'm paired with
(00:02):
somebody, or I'm grouped withsomebody, it's because they're
bringing something I can learnand I'm bringing something they
can learn. And part of our jobas students is to figure out,
what is that okay?
Ashley O'Neil (00:13):
Now we're recording.
Unknown (00:18):
So welcome to teach. Wonder. Yes,
welcome to teach wonder,a podcast hosted by Ashley
O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:34):
We all worry about new drivers. We just do. I
don't think I've spoken to anadult who cares about a new
driver who knows one who doesn'thave that slightly nervous
tension in their grin as theytalk about it, sure they're
proud of their new driver, butalso the stakes are high, and
how do you know when they'reready? One of our staff members
gives driving tests as part ofher version of retirement, and
(00:57):
something that makes her reallygood at this job is the fact
that she is utterly unflappable.
You got a lead foot. She'sgently reminding you to look at
your speedometer you run a stopsign. She's cheerily talking you
through the steps to pull to thenearest parking lot to end your
test. Why does she do this? Whydoes she stay so calm and so
steady through all these things?
(01:18):
It's because she gets that thereare two factors to determining a
successful driver, knowing theskills and having the practice,
that's one thing, but believingin your ability and feeling
confident on the inside is whatmakes a driver also because
confident drivers who don't knowwhat they're doing sure they're
going to fail that driving test.
But so are individuals who knowevery single aspect of their car
in law, but don't have theirconfidence and their own
(01:41):
ability. Today on our podcast,we're bringing you the rest of
our conversation with Dr CoreyDrake, and it's all about
agency. But before we do, Julieand I have a couple of words to
walk you through. What to listenfor
Julie Cunningham (01:56):
as we continue our conversation on agency, I'm
hopeful that we can keep in mindthe following statement, this
idea that we can change how weget somewhere, if we have agency
over the process, if we agreethat it feels good as a learner
to have control over how weachieve a goal, then we adults
need to look at how we cansupport learners in achieving
(02:17):
their goals. There is someamount of risk and allowing
yourself the vulnerability tolearn something new. As adults,
it's our responsibility tomitigate the risk by providing
transparency around the goal andcreating a safe learning space
to achieve the goal. One way todo this is by providing a
variety of opportunities forlearners and scaffolding
experiences based on studentneeds. In this episode, we will
(02:39):
discuss what this might looklike.
Ashley O'Neil (02:42):
Also, how do students access the curriculum
at grade level, and what doesthat access or lack thereof,
have to do with developingagentic learners?
Julie Cunningham (02:51):
This brings us to the idea of listening to
student cues. If students wantto try something that might be
out of their ability level, whatdo you do? What cues are they
giving you to listen to, and howdo you respond? Another thing to
pay attention to in this episodeis how student groups might
communicate competence. Mostclassrooms group students in
(03:16):
some way, shape or form. Whatdoes that mean to the students,
and what does that mean forstudent competence. And then
finally, we hope that you'lllisten to this episode and pay
attention to some examples ofhow agency might play out in
classrooms and content areasenjoy, I
Ashley O'Neil (03:40):
think, from another practical strategy, or,
like, how this plays out in theclassroom standpoint, it can
also look like giving kids,like, sometimes we do this thing
where, like, we that studentcan't handle that text yet,
right? And so that would bereally challenging for them, and
they're just going to getfrustrated, and they're just
going to get defeated. And sothey can't do that, so I'm going
to set them up for success bygiving them one that is
(04:01):
appropriate, which in somecontext and in some spaces and
places, there is a time forstudents to have text that is a
just perfect fit for them sothey can work on really, really
important skills, right, reallyphonetic, foundational reading
skills or whatnot. But if we'reoften telling students that they
can't handle something, there isa cost to that constant
(04:24):
communication. And that constantcommunication is like, Oh, I
can't handle this. And so Ithink another piece of it is, is
giving students continualchoices, even if you're not sure
they're ready for that thing. Soyou can say, like, I'm not sure
that they're ready for this yet,but they want to try. Let's do
this right. And continuallysaying, like, I believe, yeah,
(04:47):
let's go for it, and giving themthe opportunity, I think is
really important. When I thinkabout, I'm going to pull my
parenting card for just asecond, because I have a five
year old, and sometimes, like,for a really long time, he had,
he. Help going up the stairs.
And I don't really remember thelast time I had to help him up
the stairs right like, therewasn't a day that I can say, Oh,
he no longer needed me to walkhim up the stairs. That day
(05:09):
happened, but I don't rememberwhat that was, but it only
happened because every day Igave him the opportunity to do
it by himself. And there weredays when he wasn't ready, and I
had to be there, like, ready togo, but every single day, if he
wanted to go up the stairs byhimself, I was, I was ready to
do that with him. And sosometimes I think, like student,
if you give them this big of aspace, they'll fill that big of
(05:30):
a space. If you make the spacetwice as big, they're going to
work to fill the space twice asbig. And that doesn't mean just
putting them out there andsaying, Good luck. We'll see how
this goes, but it does meanhonoring where they think
they're capable of, and saying,Okay, you think you're capable
of that. I believe in you too.
And that goes a long way. Yeah,I
Dr. Corey Drake (05:52):
think that's a great point. I think, you know,
this happens too with like,broader equity conversations,
right? One way you could thinkabout competence, and finding
competence in students is, well,if I just reduce the demand of
this content enough, or if Ireduce the demands of this task
enough, I'll find where they'recompetent, right? And, like,
(06:12):
that's kind of the opposite ofwhat we want to do, right? And
so you're saying, like, set upthis high demand task that set
up these opportunities todemonstrate, to fill up the
space. The other thing I wanted,like, be clear about is it's not
just the teacher who assignscompetence and who communicates
these messages, and I think, abig strategy, not only a way to
(06:38):
help students develop their ownperceptions and understandings
and beliefs and their owncompetence, but the role of
peers is super important, and Ithink particularly about the
ways we group students or pairstudents, and it often becomes,
I think, in more traditionalclassrooms, like there's The
(06:59):
helper and the person who'sbeing helped. Or there's a
strong student in each group whocan really, like pull the group
along, and everyone knows whothat student is. Or, you know,
we have the high group and thelow group, right? In any of
those cases, we're communicatingto half or more of those
(07:19):
students that they are notcompetent, because you need to
be paired with someone who canhelp you. You need to be put in
the group with the strongstudents so that they can pull
you along. Or you're in the lowgroup that we all know is the
low group that's gettingprobably reduced content, where,
instead, if we have a beliefthat everyone is competent,
everyone is making sense. Thenwhen we pair people, or we group
(07:44):
people, we do it with theunderstanding that they are
learning from each other, thatthey each have things to bring
to the table, that they eachhave things they can learn from
each other. Because even thoughthey're each competent, they're
competent in different ways,because we all are competent in
different ways. We all makesense in different ways. And
that's a strength, and that'ssomething we can learn from each
other, versus this idea ofyou're bringing confidence that
(08:08):
I need to receive, right? Orthis person is bringing
competence that we need toreceive, or we all need to work
with the teacher, because we'renot competent. But that group
that can go work on their own,they must be competent. And so I
think there's a lot to be done,both by the teacher and how you
pair and group students, butthen also how you facilitate
students recognizing eachother's competence and assuming
(08:31):
that when I'm paired withsomebody or I'm grouped with
somebody, it's because they'rebringing something I can learn
and I'm bringing something theycan learn. And part of our job
as students is to figure out,what is that? What is that
really cool way that Ashley'sthinking about that might really
help me with how I'm solving theproblem, right? How did Julie
communicate this in a way thatmight help me think about how
(08:53):
I'm making sense of thisproblem? And so I think that's
another shift that really putsthe burden, but also the
opportunity on peers torecognize their own and each
other's confidence.
Julie Cunningham (09:06):
Yeah, I was thinking, Ashley, with your
parenting example, and thatplays a role in the classroom
example as well, right? Ofallowing the student to choose
the more difficult text, if theyso choose. But there's, I think
there's two things going onthere. So I think those are both
really nice examples of growthmindset, which was on our list
(09:27):
of questions, right? Like, howis growth mindset play a role
here? And all those are greatexamples of ways in which
students can have growth mindsetand their growth mindset can be
supported. But additionally, Ithink you sort of mentioned it,
Ashley, when you said I'mwilling to do that with him to
go up the stairs, is thatthere's a safe space, right? So
(09:48):
there's a safe space in theclassroom, if you're going to
demonstrate your competencealongside your peers, or we're
going to assume you and yourpeers are all competent, or all
competent at something, right inthe group. Then there has to be
this recognition of that withyour peers, and also a safe
space to say, Okay, I've gottenas far as I can get in this
(10:09):
text. That's really difficulttoday, and I'm getting
frustrated, and I'd like to nowdo this instead, right? That's
agency over your learning again,saying I, in order to get to
here, I'm going to choose mypath, but in order to be able to
choose my path, it has to besafe enough for me to say I
can't do this today or I wanthelp.
Dr. Corey Drake (10:30):
Right? Yes, I can't do this today. I can't do
this yet. I need some support. Ineed some help, right, whatever.
And again, having agency to evenkind of recognize like what
might help me in this moment?
What could I ask for? Who couldI ask? You know, those kinds of
questions. I think that isreally important to think about
kind of that safe and supportedenvironment. I think, Julie, you
said earlier, right? It's notthat we're just like throwing
(10:53):
you out there and, you know, dothis task, no supports, no no
scaffolds, but it's you get tochoose how and when you you ask
for help and how and when youjump in and really figure things
out and have that productivestruggle.
Ashley O'Neil (11:14):
Yeah, I think it also comes with a sense of being
honest about what are all of thecompetencies that that task is
made up of, right? So, like, ifI'm asking even something
really, quote, unquote simple,like, hey, go do this math
sheet. Well, I'm working withyour peers at the table, right?
And then when you're done, youcan go do XYZ that math sheet,
(11:36):
because it's 30 problems, andbecause of the setup of it is
about speed and stamina. It'sabout a written task. It's about
fitting things into the boxes.
It's about all of those things.
And so the child who is maybe onthe outside, what maybe the
stereotypical competent kid isthe one who sits quietly, does
(11:58):
the entire thing, finishes itwith relative accuracy and turns
it in. But all of those thingsare not necessarily related. You
may have a student who's areally great mathematical
thinker who spends time tumblingthe quantities around in his
brain and has thought of eightways to solve that one problem,
but it took him longer becausehe's really deeply engaged in
that first problem. But thelength of the exercise is
(12:21):
daunting, and so what theoutcome is may not seem like.
You may not get the outcome thatlooks like, hey, this kid can do
this thing, whereas the child,who can mimic the teacher steps
to answer every single one ofthose questions, can do it
relatively quickly, but didn'tengage as deeply in that math
task as the first child did,right? But from the outset, from
(12:42):
the outside perception whichchild looked like they were
successful in the task, right?
So sometimes, I think it's beinghonest about all the components
that we're asking of a childwhen we have them do them, those
things mentally, being able tobreak them apart, and then
knowing our students, right?
Like knowing which child wouldbenefit from only having to do
five because five problems,well, is just as successful as
(13:05):
20, right? Like, if they're allrepetitious, and knowing that
for some of our students, beingable to just write them on a
whiteboard or orally do it so,like changing the modality can
increase their capacity to bethe best version of themselves.
So sometimes I think it's usknowing what all the components
are, so that we can, like,thoughtfully push in the
(13:26):
supports, so that the studentscan really be the best versions
of themselves. Because if theydon't know how to ask for help
or what, what the help optionsare, right? Like, we can make
the safe environment, but theyalso need to know what their
choices
Dr. Corey Drake (13:39):
are. Yeah, absolutely, that's a good point,
and your example is making methink too, like, What is our
goal? Right? If my goal were tounderstand more about student
thinking, if my goal were forstudents to demonstrate their
understanding of multiplication,if it were to be kind of to show
their demonstrate theirflexibility with numbers, or
(14:02):
their understanding of thenumber system, right? That
second student and what I'masking them to do, let's say, I
said, just do five problems, butshow me all the different ways
you're thinking about this. Ilearned a lot more about that
student than I did about thatfirst student who that first
student who completed quietlyand got all the answers. I still
don't really know what thatstudent understands about
multiplication. So if my goalwere, can you do it quickly and
(14:26):
accurately? I do know that thatstudent has demonstrated that
competence. But often weconflate the two. We often
think, oh, because that studentdemonstrated that competence in
being quick and accurate, theymust have an understanding of
multiplication. They must haveflexibility with numbers. They
must understand our numbersystem. And those two things
(14:47):
don't always go together. Sowhat can you learn about your
student through what you'reasking them to do, and then what
do they have opportunities tomake sense of through what
you're asking them to do? Ithink are both important. Yeah.
Julie Cunningham (15:01):
Yeah, and, and a little bit like, where is
their voice in the right? Like,where, where did they get to
have, like, some voice andchoice about, you know, maybe
it's even a question of, like, Idon't know, how many of these do
you need? Do you think you needto do to demonstrate to me that
you can right? If this is mygoal, is knowing that you can
(15:23):
multiply like, where's it end,right? What is it? What's
practice and what is just wrote
Unknown (15:33):
rent. I can
Ashley O'Neil (15:34):
do it over and over and over. That gets on
another teacher's skill, Julie,which is being really
transparent with the studentsabout what the ask is and why
the ask is there, which thenallows them to have the
information they need to makechoices in the classroom,
because they know, oh, this isthe part that matters to you.
Okay, well, then can wecompromise in this way? Because
(15:55):
they understand what the pointof the process, the whole
project is, right? Yeah.
Julie Cunningham (16:02):
Are we have a thought or a question for
ourselves on, what does thishave to do with student
engagement? And so I'll just,I'll throw that out there. I'm
happy to take a turn atanswering it, but I'll throw it
out there first. And so by this,I mean what is, what is sense
making or assuming students arecompetent, or allowing them to
(16:25):
demonstrate ways in which theyare competent to you, what does
that have to do with studentengagement, presuming that
student engagement is somethingthat we'd like to see in a
classroom?
Dr. Corey Drake (16:38):
Yes, and like true engagement, which doesn't
necessarily mean students beingquiet or compliant in some way,
but actually like engage withthe content. I mean, I think
it's critical to engagement. Ithink when we aren't starting
with a stance of students assense makers and students as
(16:58):
competent, we fall back into,what are we asking students to
do? What we're asking them tomimic, to be quiet, to try to
figure out how I the teacher,I'm making sense of something,
and try to match that right,which is a series of actions
that even if students werecompliant with that, like, what
(17:18):
are they engaged with? They'reengaged maybe with my thinking
about something and trying tomatch that. But when I'm
assuming students are sensemakers and giving them
opportunities to demonstratetheir competence and make sense
for themselves, then they'reengaged with the content. Then
they're they're in a position ofhaving both like the opportunity
(17:41):
and the responsibility to say,how can I make sense of this?
What can I do? How does thisconnect to what I already know?
What questions do I have? Whatmodels could I use? What can I
draw on in my experiences, whichare all kind of more active and
engaged verbs and questions thanthan what we often ask students
(18:03):
to do?
Ashley O'Neil (18:06):
Yeah, I think it also comes up with, we talked a
lot about con content, but Ithink it also comes on the other
side, where it comes to, like,if we say the behavior side of
the classroom, right where, if astudent is presumed that they're
capable and can do this andgenuinely gets believed or gets
fresh chances all the time,regardless of what happened
(18:27):
yesterday or an hour ago,they're much more likely to try
because they don't think thatthis is a foregone conclusion,
right? Like they don't assumethey're going to be left out, or
assume that like what happenedyesterday is going to happen
again and the way my teachertalk to me is going to be the
way my peers now talk to me,because everybody's frustrated
with me, and I know they're allfrustrated with me, so why would
(18:47):
I even try right? Like, if thatteacher believes them and
listens to them and gives them achance every single time,
they're going to be so much morelikely to show up. Because
another side of this right we'vetalked about this a little, is
that social side. So the socialdynamics in the classroom are
there. I've been in classrooms.
I had a classroom where the kidswould all bite at a student for
doing the thing that they knewthe student was the teacher was
(19:10):
going to bite at them for,right? I don't mean literal
biting. I mean like snipping atthem, just to be clear. And I
think that sometimes students,when they show up and they think
that it's fixed that who theyare, the stereotype of them, or
the caricature of them is set intheir class, they're going to
live up to that character,because what else do they have
(19:31):
to do? Right? And if they cancontrol the narrative about
themselves by being thatnarrative, then that's a lot
easier than trying to bevulnerable and be different and
and then have all my friends andmy teacher treat me just like
they did yesterday. So I thinkif we can do that with students,
and that is part of competence,they're much more likely to be
vulnerable, because learning isvulnerable and it's scary. And
if we want our students to bevulnerable and to be feel safe,
(19:53):
and in that way, it itencompasses them as the whole
child too. Do right like itthinks about the student who may
have a bad day or may have atough minute, or may not fit
into a neat and tidy box in ourclassroom, like we need them to
or want them to. So I thinkthere's that social side, or the
behavioral side that comes withthe competence and student
engagement too.
Dr. Corey Drake (20:16):
That's such a great point, because when we,
when we were talking a fewminutes ago, about the student
who chooses the more challengingtask and then realizes they need
some supports, and theimportance of knowing what the
options are and what you can askfor and how you can ask for it
right? If we don't know that,and we don't understand that
(20:37):
there are supports we can askfor, and it is the safe
environment many children havevery little choice at that point
except to either withdraw or toact in, act out. And so right,
this idea of competence and thisassumption of confidence
provides options in thosemoments, because we all have
(20:58):
those moments when we don't knowwhat to do next, or when we're
struggling or when we need somesupport, and if I don't know
what those options are, I'mgoing to choose the only ones I
know, which are often behavioraland often either withdrawing or
acting out. So
Julie Cunningham (21:17):
I'm not even sure that students can show up
as sense makers and demonstratecompetence in the classroom
where they're not supported thatway. Like, how do you how do you
even know like, like you said,if they can fill in a worksheet
that doesn't tell me thatthey're a sense maker about math
me, tells me that my class isquiet and that they're well
(21:39):
behaved and that they're fillingin worksheets, but I don't know
if you can even have sensemakers and truly students
demonstrating competence if youdon't give them some agency,
Dr. Corey Drake (21:55):
right? And it's about like being humans. It's
about understanding children asfull humans who have the same
needs and requirements forlearning as we do when we step
into a learning situation asadults. And there are particular
constraints that are brought byschools and classrooms and those
structures that sometimes makethis even more challenging. But
(22:19):
fundamentally, it'sunderstanding that children are
humans who bring in experiencesand ideas and are constantly
making sense of their world,just like we all are. And so we
can get closer both to the likehumanity we want, but also the
learning we want in classrooms,if we recognize that and and
(22:41):
build on that, versus trying tocontrol it or shut it down.
Ashley O'Neil (22:45):
It reminds me of like, family or people who've
known you for a long time, orparticularly knew you when you
were little, and you show up andthey're like, Oh, you and you're
like, that hasn't been me. Thatversion of me was like in the
1900s like that is a long timeago. That's not me anymore,
right? But it can be exhaustingwhen that's the version of you
that they have fixed in yourbrain. And so what do you do?
(23:07):
You kind of fall into thepatterns of the people that
you're with, because it's justreally hard to be different when
people just keep telling you whoyou are already, it makes me
think about that. I do, I don't.
I do want to also recognize andsay, This is really hard to do
as a teacher. This is not easy,and it is not something that I
have perfected. It is somethingI work on every day. It's some
(23:28):
days I do better at this thanothers. And one of the reasons,
Corey you identified, is thatthe school is not meant to think
this way. All the data that wecollect on kids makes it really
hard to think this way. Our ownperformance evals make it really
hard to think this way. Humanthe way we kind of show up
culturally in society, makes itreally hard to think this way.
(23:49):
How we talk for efficiency sakeand meetings makes it hard to
think this way. But that doesn'tmean that it's it's not
important to
Julie Cunningham (23:58):
keep trying well, and I think it's way more
fun. I mean, isn't it way morefun to be in the classroom,
like, I want to go to school andhave fun as an adult, like, and
I think also then your behaviorissues are cut down, right? So
it's like a trade off. It's likea cost benefit ratio again,
(24:19):
right?
Unknown (24:19):
So your hard is here doing this work instead of your
heart is here doing thediscipline work or whatever that
other heart is. Your heart isdifferent.
Julie Cunningham (24:29):
I mean, it's all hard, but where do you want
your heart to be? Like,
Dr. Corey Drake (24:36):
yeah, for sure, and no, I I don't think there's
anyone who is not still tryingto learn and grow and push
against the systems to make thiswork more possible. And I think
there's a lot of reasons whyit's both more fun and more
important and and better forlearning to act and show up
(24:59):
this. Way and bring theseassumptions, and there's so many
reasons why it's hard, and it'sthe systems and the structures
and the way we probably learnedourselves and all of those
pieces that so I think it's, Ithink it's great that you all
are doing this podcast andhaving these opportunities,
because that's the other piece.
Is I think sometimes we can feelreally alone in doing this work
(25:22):
and in showing up in a classroomin a different way than maybe
others around us are, or thenmaybe we experienced in schools
ourselves. So I think it'simportant to know that there are
people, there is there iscommunity in trying to shift the
experiences that students havein school into more equitable
(25:42):
sense making experiences,
Ashley O'Neil (25:48):
yeah, and I think for me, the easiest time to do
this has become when I'm withkids, right when I'm teaching.
This is the easiest the hardesttime to do this is when you're
with a colleague and they'resaying something or
participating in a fixed mindsetthat you would like to not have
(26:10):
happen in the staff meeting, inthe teachers lounge and the
whatever. And so this is myversion of going into the
teachers lounge and saying,like, hey, we can have these
conversations also as adults,and that is really huge too,
because it's not something youcan turn on and off in your
classroom. You may think youcan, right? But if you're
talking one way in the teacher'slounge, and you think you're
talking another way in theclassroom, you're not. It's,
(26:33):
it's pervasive, and it's, it'scoming out in the classroom too.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. Thanks for
listening. Bye.
And assuming that when I'm paired with
(00:02):
somebody, or I'm grouped withsomebody, it's because they're
bringing something I can learnand I'm bringing something they
can learn. And part of our jobas students is to figure out,
what is that okay?
Ashley O'Neil (00:13):
Now we're recording.
Unknown (00:18):
So welcome to teach. Wonder. Yes,
welcome to teach wonder,a podcast hosted by Ashley
O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:34):
We all worry about new drivers. We just do. I
don't think I've spoken to anadult who cares about a new
driver who knows one who doesn'thave that slightly nervous
tension in their grin as theytalk about it, sure they're
proud of their new driver, butalso the stakes are high, and
how do you know when they'reready? One of our staff members
gives driving tests as part ofher version of retirement, and
(00:57):
something that makes her reallygood at this job is the fact
that she is utterly unflappable.
You got a lead foot. She'sgently reminding you to look at
your speedometer you run a stopsign. She's cheerily talking you
through the steps to pull to thenearest parking lot to end your
test. Why does she do this? Whydoes she stay so calm and so
steady through all these things?
(01:18):
It's because she gets that thereare two factors to determining a
successful driver, knowing theskills and having the practice,
that's one thing, but believingin your ability and feeling
confident on the inside is whatmakes a driver also because
confident drivers who don't knowwhat they're doing sure they're
going to fail that driving test.
But so are individuals who knowevery single aspect of their car
in law, but don't have theirconfidence and their own
(01:41):
ability. Today on our podcast,we're bringing you the rest of
our conversation with Dr CoreyDrake, and it's all about
agency. But before we do, Julieand I have a couple of words to
walk you through. What to listenfor
Julie Cunningham (01:56):
as we continue our conversation on agency, I'm
hopeful that we can keep in mindthe following statement, this
idea that we can change how weget somewhere, if we have agency
over the process, if we agreethat it feels good as a learner
to have control over how weachieve a goal, then we adults
need to look at how we cansupport learners in achieving
(02:17):
their goals. There is someamount of risk and allowing
yourself the vulnerability tolearn something new. As adults,
it's our responsibility tomitigate the risk by providing
transparency around the goal andcreating a safe learning space
to achieve the goal. One way todo this is by providing a
variety of opportunities forlearners and scaffolding
experiences based on studentneeds. In this episode, we will
(02:39):
discuss what this might looklike.
Ashley O'Neil (02:42):
Also, how do students access the curriculum
at grade level, and what doesthat access or lack thereof,
have to do with developingagentic learners?
Julie Cunningham (02:51):
This brings us to the idea of listening to
student cues. If students wantto try something that might be
out of their ability level, whatdo you do? What cues are they
giving you to listen to, and howdo you respond? Another thing to
pay attention to in this episodeis how student groups might
communicate competence. Mostclassrooms group students in
(03:16):
some way, shape or form. Whatdoes that mean to the students,
and what does that mean forstudent competence. And then
finally, we hope that you'lllisten to this episode and pay
attention to some examples ofhow agency might play out in
classrooms and content areasenjoy, I
Ashley O'Neil (03:40):
think, from another practical strategy, or,
like, how this plays out in theclassroom standpoint, it can
also look like giving kids,like, sometimes we do this thing
where, like, we that studentcan't handle that text yet,
right? And so that would bereally challenging for them, and
they're just going to getfrustrated, and they're just
going to get defeated. And sothey can't do that, so I'm going
to set them up for success bygiving them one that is
(04:01):
appropriate, which in somecontext and in some spaces and
places, there is a time forstudents to have text that is a
just perfect fit for them sothey can work on really, really
important skills, right, reallyphonetic, foundational reading
skills or whatnot. But if we'reoften telling students that they
can't handle something, there isa cost to that constant
(04:24):
communication. And that constantcommunication is like, Oh, I
can't handle this. And so Ithink another piece of it is, is
giving students continualchoices, even if you're not sure
they're ready for that thing. Soyou can say, like, I'm not sure
that they're ready for this yet,but they want to try. Let's do
this right. And continuallysaying, like, I believe, yeah,
(04:47):
let's go for it, and giving themthe opportunity, I think is
really important. When I thinkabout, I'm going to pull my
parenting card for just asecond, because I have a five
year old, and sometimes, like,for a really long time, he had,
he. Help going up the stairs.
And I don't really remember thelast time I had to help him up
the stairs right like, therewasn't a day that I can say, Oh,
he no longer needed me to walkhim up the stairs. That day
(05:09):
happened, but I don't rememberwhat that was, but it only
happened because every day Igave him the opportunity to do
it by himself. And there weredays when he wasn't ready, and I
had to be there, like, ready togo, but every single day, if he
wanted to go up the stairs byhimself, I was, I was ready to
do that with him. And sosometimes I think, like student,
if you give them this big of aspace, they'll fill that big of
(05:30):
a space. If you make the spacetwice as big, they're going to
work to fill the space twice asbig. And that doesn't mean just
putting them out there andsaying, Good luck. We'll see how
this goes, but it does meanhonoring where they think
they're capable of, and saying,Okay, you think you're capable
of that. I believe in you too.
And that goes a long way. Yeah,I
Dr. Corey Drake (05:52):
think that's a great point. I think, you know,
this happens too with like,broader equity conversations,
right? One way you could thinkabout competence, and finding
competence in students is, well,if I just reduce the demand of
this content enough, or if Ireduce the demands of this task
enough, I'll find where they'recompetent, right? And, like,
(06:12):
that's kind of the opposite ofwhat we want to do, right? And
so you're saying, like, set upthis high demand task that set
up these opportunities todemonstrate, to fill up the
space. The other thing I wanted,like, be clear about is it's not
just the teacher who assignscompetence and who communicates
these messages, and I think, abig strategy, not only a way to
(06:38):
help students develop their ownperceptions and understandings
and beliefs and their owncompetence, but the role of
peers is super important, and Ithink particularly about the
ways we group students or pairstudents, and it often becomes,
I think, in more traditionalclassrooms, like there's The
(06:59):
helper and the person who'sbeing helped. Or there's a
strong student in each group whocan really, like pull the group
along, and everyone knows whothat student is. Or, you know,
we have the high group and thelow group, right? In any of
those cases, we're communicatingto half or more of those
(07:19):
students that they are notcompetent, because you need to
be paired with someone who canhelp you. You need to be put in
the group with the strongstudents so that they can pull
you along. Or you're in the lowgroup that we all know is the
low group that's gettingprobably reduced content, where,
instead, if we have a beliefthat everyone is competent,
everyone is making sense. Thenwhen we pair people, or we group
(07:44):
people, we do it with theunderstanding that they are
learning from each other, thatthey each have things to bring
to the table, that they eachhave things they can learn from
each other. Because even thoughthey're each competent, they're
competent in different ways,because we all are competent in
different ways. We all makesense in different ways. And
that's a strength, and that'ssomething we can learn from each
other, versus this idea ofyou're bringing confidence that
(08:08):
I need to receive, right? Orthis person is bringing
competence that we need toreceive, or we all need to work
with the teacher, because we'renot competent. But that group
that can go work on their own,they must be competent. And so I
think there's a lot to be done,both by the teacher and how you
pair and group students, butthen also how you facilitate
students recognizing eachother's competence and assuming
(08:31):
that when I'm paired withsomebody or I'm grouped with
somebody, it's because they'rebringing something I can learn
and I'm bringing something theycan learn. And part of our job
as students is to figure out,what is that? What is that
really cool way that Ashley'sthinking about that might really
help me with how I'm solving theproblem, right? How did Julie
communicate this in a way thatmight help me think about how
(08:53):
I'm making sense of thisproblem? And so I think that's
another shift that really putsthe burden, but also the
opportunity on peers torecognize their own and each
other's confidence.
Julie Cunningham (09:06):
Yeah, I was thinking, Ashley, with your
parenting example, and thatplays a role in the classroom
example as well, right? Ofallowing the student to choose
the more difficult text, if theyso choose. But there's, I think
there's two things going onthere. So I think those are both
really nice examples of growthmindset, which was on our list
(09:27):
of questions, right? Like, howis growth mindset play a role
here? And all those are greatexamples of ways in which
students can have growth mindsetand their growth mindset can be
supported. But additionally, Ithink you sort of mentioned it,
Ashley, when you said I'mwilling to do that with him to
go up the stairs, is thatthere's a safe space, right? So
(09:48):
there's a safe space in theclassroom, if you're going to
demonstrate your competencealongside your peers, or we're
going to assume you and yourpeers are all competent, or all
competent at something, right inthe group. Then there has to be
this recognition of that withyour peers, and also a safe
space to say, Okay, I've gottenas far as I can get in this
(10:09):
text. That's really difficulttoday, and I'm getting
frustrated, and I'd like to nowdo this instead, right? That's
agency over your learning again,saying I, in order to get to
here, I'm going to choose mypath, but in order to be able to
choose my path, it has to besafe enough for me to say I
can't do this today or I wanthelp.
Dr. Corey Drake (10:30):
Right? Yes, I can't do this today. I can't do
this yet. I need some support. Ineed some help, right, whatever.
And again, having agency to evenkind of recognize like what
might help me in this moment?
What could I ask for? Who couldI ask? You know, those kinds of
questions. I think that isreally important to think about
kind of that safe and supportedenvironment. I think, Julie, you
said earlier, right? It's notthat we're just like throwing
(10:53):
you out there and, you know, dothis task, no supports, no no
scaffolds, but it's you get tochoose how and when you you ask
for help and how and when youjump in and really figure things
out and have that productivestruggle.
Ashley O'Neil (11:14):
Yeah, I think it also comes with a sense of being
honest about what are all of thecompetencies that that task is
made up of, right? So, like, ifI'm asking even something
really, quote, unquote simple,like, hey, go do this math
sheet. Well, I'm working withyour peers at the table, right?
And then when you're done, youcan go do XYZ that math sheet,
(11:36):
because it's 30 problems, andbecause of the setup of it is
about speed and stamina. It'sabout a written task. It's about
fitting things into the boxes.
It's about all of those things.
And so the child who is maybe onthe outside, what maybe the
stereotypical competent kid isthe one who sits quietly, does
(11:58):
the entire thing, finishes itwith relative accuracy and turns
it in. But all of those thingsare not necessarily related. You
may have a student who's areally great mathematical
thinker who spends time tumblingthe quantities around in his
brain and has thought of eightways to solve that one problem,
but it took him longer becausehe's really deeply engaged in
that first problem. But thelength of the exercise is
(12:21):
daunting, and so what theoutcome is may not seem like.
You may not get the outcome thatlooks like, hey, this kid can do
this thing, whereas the child,who can mimic the teacher steps
to answer every single one ofthose questions, can do it
relatively quickly, but didn'tengage as deeply in that math
task as the first child did,right? But from the outset, from
(12:42):
the outside perception whichchild looked like they were
successful in the task, right?
So sometimes, I think it's beinghonest about all the components
that we're asking of a childwhen we have them do them, those
things mentally, being able tobreak them apart, and then
knowing our students, right?
Like knowing which child wouldbenefit from only having to do
five because five problems,well, is just as successful as
(13:05):
20, right? Like, if they're allrepetitious, and knowing that
for some of our students, beingable to just write them on a
whiteboard or orally do it so,like changing the modality can
increase their capacity to bethe best version of themselves.
So sometimes I think it's usknowing what all the components
are, so that we can, like,thoughtfully push in the
(13:26):
supports, so that the studentscan really be the best versions
of themselves. Because if theydon't know how to ask for help
or what, what the help optionsare, right? Like, we can make
the safe environment, but theyalso need to know what their
choices
Dr. Corey Drake (13:39):
are. Yeah, absolutely, that's a good point,
and your example is making methink too, like, What is our
goal? Right? If my goal were tounderstand more about student
thinking, if my goal were forstudents to demonstrate their
understanding of multiplication,if it were to be kind of to show
their demonstrate theirflexibility with numbers, or
(14:02):
their understanding of thenumber system, right? That
second student and what I'masking them to do, let's say, I
said, just do five problems, butshow me all the different ways
you're thinking about this. Ilearned a lot more about that
student than I did about thatfirst student who that first
student who completed quietlyand got all the answers. I still
don't really know what thatstudent understands about
multiplication. So if my goalwere, can you do it quickly and
(14:26):
accurately? I do know that thatstudent has demonstrated that
competence. But often weconflate the two. We often
think, oh, because that studentdemonstrated that competence in
being quick and accurate, theymust have an understanding of
multiplication. They must haveflexibility with numbers. They
must understand our numbersystem. And those two things
(14:47):
don't always go together. Sowhat can you learn about your
student through what you'reasking them to do, and then what
do they have opportunities tomake sense of through what
you're asking them to do? Ithink are both important. Yeah.
Julie Cunningham (15:01):
Yeah, and, and a little bit like, where is
their voice in the right? Like,where, where did they get to
have, like, some voice andchoice about, you know, maybe
it's even a question of, like, Idon't know, how many of these do
you need? Do you think you needto do to demonstrate to me that
you can right? If this is mygoal, is knowing that you can
(15:23):
multiply like, where's it end,right? What is it? What's
practice and what is just wrote
Unknown (15:33):
rent. I can
Ashley O'Neil (15:34):
do it over and over and over. That gets on
another teacher's skill, Julie,which is being really
transparent with the studentsabout what the ask is and why
the ask is there, which thenallows them to have the
information they need to makechoices in the classroom,
because they know, oh, this isthe part that matters to you.
Okay, well, then can wecompromise in this way? Because
(15:55):
they understand what the pointof the process, the whole
project is, right? Yeah.
Julie Cunningham (16:02):
Are we have a thought or a question for
ourselves on, what does thishave to do with student
engagement? And so I'll just,I'll throw that out there. I'm
happy to take a turn atanswering it, but I'll throw it
out there first. And so by this,I mean what is, what is sense
making or assuming students arecompetent, or allowing them to
(16:25):
demonstrate ways in which theyare competent to you, what does
that have to do with studentengagement, presuming that
student engagement is somethingthat we'd like to see in a
classroom?
Dr. Corey Drake (16:38):
Yes, and like true engagement, which doesn't
necessarily mean students beingquiet or compliant in some way,
but actually like engage withthe content. I mean, I think
it's critical to engagement. Ithink when we aren't starting
with a stance of students assense makers and students as
(16:58):
competent, we fall back into,what are we asking students to
do? What we're asking them tomimic, to be quiet, to try to
figure out how I the teacher,I'm making sense of something,
and try to match that right,which is a series of actions
that even if students werecompliant with that, like, what
(17:18):
are they engaged with? They'reengaged maybe with my thinking
about something and trying tomatch that. But when I'm
assuming students are sensemakers and giving them
opportunities to demonstratetheir competence and make sense
for themselves, then they'reengaged with the content. Then
they're they're in a position ofhaving both like the opportunity
(17:41):
and the responsibility to say,how can I make sense of this?
What can I do? How does thisconnect to what I already know?
What questions do I have? Whatmodels could I use? What can I
draw on in my experiences, whichare all kind of more active and
engaged verbs and questions thanthan what we often ask students
(18:03):
to do?
Ashley O'Neil (18:06):
Yeah, I think it also comes up with, we talked a
lot about con content, but Ithink it also comes on the other
side, where it comes to, like,if we say the behavior side of
the classroom, right where, if astudent is presumed that they're
capable and can do this andgenuinely gets believed or gets
fresh chances all the time,regardless of what happened
(18:27):
yesterday or an hour ago,they're much more likely to try
because they don't think thatthis is a foregone conclusion,
right? Like they don't assumethey're going to be left out, or
assume that like what happenedyesterday is going to happen
again and the way my teachertalk to me is going to be the
way my peers now talk to me,because everybody's frustrated
with me, and I know they're allfrustrated with me, so why would
(18:47):
I even try right? Like, if thatteacher believes them and
listens to them and gives them achance every single time,
they're going to be so much morelikely to show up. Because
another side of this right we'vetalked about this a little, is
that social side. So the socialdynamics in the classroom are
there. I've been in classrooms.
I had a classroom where the kidswould all bite at a student for
doing the thing that they knewthe student was the teacher was
(19:10):
going to bite at them for,right? I don't mean literal
biting. I mean like snipping atthem, just to be clear. And I
think that sometimes students,when they show up and they think
that it's fixed that who theyare, the stereotype of them, or
the caricature of them is set intheir class, they're going to
live up to that character,because what else do they have
(19:31):
to do? Right? And if they cancontrol the narrative about
themselves by being thatnarrative, then that's a lot
easier than trying to bevulnerable and be different and
and then have all my friends andmy teacher treat me just like
they did yesterday. So I thinkif we can do that with students,
and that is part of competence,they're much more likely to be
vulnerable, because learning isvulnerable and it's scary. And
if we want our students to bevulnerable and to be feel safe,
(19:53):
and in that way, it itencompasses them as the whole
child too. Do right like itthinks about the student who may
have a bad day or may have atough minute, or may not fit
into a neat and tidy box in ourclassroom, like we need them to
or want them to. So I thinkthere's that social side, or the
behavioral side that comes withthe competence and student
engagement too.
Dr. Corey Drake (20:16):
That's such a great point, because when we,
when we were talking a fewminutes ago, about the student
who chooses the more challengingtask and then realizes they need
some supports, and theimportance of knowing what the
options are and what you can askfor and how you can ask for it
right? If we don't know that,and we don't understand that
(20:37):
there are supports we can askfor, and it is the safe
environment many children havevery little choice at that point
except to either withdraw or toact in, act out. And so right,
this idea of competence and thisassumption of confidence
provides options in thosemoments, because we all have
(20:58):
those moments when we don't knowwhat to do next, or when we're
struggling or when we need somesupport, and if I don't know
what those options are, I'mgoing to choose the only ones I
know, which are often behavioraland often either withdrawing or
acting out. So
Julie Cunningham (21:17):
I'm not even sure that students can show up
as sense makers and demonstratecompetence in the classroom
where they're not supported thatway. Like, how do you how do you
even know like, like you said,if they can fill in a worksheet
that doesn't tell me thatthey're a sense maker about math
me, tells me that my class isquiet and that they're well
(21:39):
behaved and that they're fillingin worksheets, but I don't know
if you can even have sensemakers and truly students
demonstrating competence if youdon't give them some agency,
Dr. Corey Drake (21:55):
right? And it's about like being humans. It's
about understanding children asfull humans who have the same
needs and requirements forlearning as we do when we step
into a learning situation asadults. And there are particular
constraints that are brought byschools and classrooms and those
structures that sometimes makethis even more challenging. But
(22:19):
fundamentally, it'sunderstanding that children are
humans who bring in experiencesand ideas and are constantly
making sense of their world,just like we all are. And so we
can get closer both to the likehumanity we want, but also the
learning we want in classrooms,if we recognize that and and
(22:41):
build on that, versus trying tocontrol it or shut it down.
Ashley O'Neil (22:45):
It reminds me of like, family or people who've
known you for a long time, orparticularly knew you when you
were little, and you show up andthey're like, Oh, you and you're
like, that hasn't been me. Thatversion of me was like in the
1900s like that is a long timeago. That's not me anymore,
right? But it can be exhaustingwhen that's the version of you
that they have fixed in yourbrain. And so what do you do?
(23:07):
You kind of fall into thepatterns of the people that
you're with, because it's justreally hard to be different when
people just keep telling you whoyou are already, it makes me
think about that. I do, I don't.
I do want to also recognize andsay, This is really hard to do
as a teacher. This is not easy,and it is not something that I
have perfected. It is somethingI work on every day. It's some
(23:28):
days I do better at this thanothers. And one of the reasons,
Corey you identified, is thatthe school is not meant to think
this way. All the data that wecollect on kids makes it really
hard to think this way. Our ownperformance evals make it really
hard to think this way. Humanthe way we kind of show up
culturally in society, makes itreally hard to think this way.
(23:49):
How we talk for efficiency sakeand meetings makes it hard to
think this way. But that doesn'tmean that it's it's not
important to
Julie Cunningham (23:58):
keep trying well, and I think it's way more
fun. I mean, isn't it way morefun to be in the classroom,
like, I want to go to school andhave fun as an adult, like, and
I think also then your behaviorissues are cut down, right? So
it's like a trade off. It's likea cost benefit ratio again,
(24:19):
right?
Unknown (24:19):
So your hard is here doing this work instead of your
heart is here doing thediscipline work or whatever that
other heart is. Your heart isdifferent.
Julie Cunningham (24:29):
I mean, it's all hard, but where do you want
your heart to be? Like,
Dr. Corey Drake (24:36):
yeah, for sure, and no, I I don't think there's
anyone who is not still tryingto learn and grow and push
against the systems to make thiswork more possible. And I think
there's a lot of reasons whyit's both more fun and more
important and and better forlearning to act and show up
(24:59):
this. Way and bring theseassumptions, and there's so many
reasons why it's hard, and it'sthe systems and the structures
and the way we probably learnedourselves and all of those
pieces that so I think it's, Ithink it's great that you all
are doing this podcast andhaving these opportunities,
because that's the other piece.
Is I think sometimes we can feelreally alone in doing this work
(25:22):
and in showing up in a classroomin a different way than maybe
others around us are, or thenmaybe we experienced in schools
ourselves. So I think it'simportant to know that there are
people, there is there iscommunity in trying to shift the
experiences that students havein school into more equitable
(25:42):
sense making experiences,
Ashley O'Neil (25:48):
yeah, and I think for me, the easiest time to do
this has become when I'm withkids, right when I'm teaching.
This is the easiest the hardesttime to do this is when you're
with a colleague and they'resaying something or
participating in a fixed mindsetthat you would like to not have
(26:10):
happen in the staff meeting, inthe teachers lounge and the
whatever. And so this is myversion of going into the
teachers lounge and saying,like, hey, we can have these
conversations also as adults,and that is really huge too,
because it's not something youcan turn on and off in your
classroom. You may think youcan, right? But if you're
talking one way in the teacher'slounge, and you think you're
talking another way in theclassroom, you're not. It's,
(26:33):
it's pervasive, and it's, it'scoming out in the classroom too.
This has been another episode ofteach wonder. Thanks for
listening. Bye.
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