April 9, 2024 • 27 mins
Let's embark on a journey through the world of retirement accounts tailored for the modern entrepreneur in this episode of the Teaching Tax Flow podcast. We jump right into how to best create a robust financial future, while cleverly navigating through various retirement plans.
In the multi-faceted discussion, Chris tactfully breaks down retirement account options, from the basic traditional IRA to the ultra-advanced defined benefit plan. Emphasizing the necessity of planning and foresight, the podcast provides a rare glimpse into the intricacies of tax-advantaged savings for self-driven business minds. With each retirement solution dissected, the episode carves out a clear understanding, empowering entrepreneurs to make informed decisions for their long-term prosperity.
Key Takeaways:
- Traditional and Roth IRAs serve as basic retirement account options, allowing individual contributions up to certain limits based on age and income.
- SEP IRAs offer an advanced option for self-employed individuals or entrepreneurs without employees, enabling higher contribution limits and tax deductions.
- SIMPLE and Solo 401(k) plans serve as viable options for small business owners and sole proprietors, providing opportunities for substantial retirement savings.
- Safe Harbor 401(k) plans cater to businesses with employees and ensure fair treatment across compensation levels with mandatory employer contributions.
- Defined Benefit Plans stand at the apex of complexity, suitable for those able to contribute a significant amount annually and seeking maximal tax deductions.
Notable Quotes:
- "For entrepreneurs, we don't have a set it and forget it option." - Chris Picciurro
- "A traditional IRA is a great starter account. It's not designed specifically for entrepreneurs, yet it's utilized by many entrepreneurs when they get started." - Chris Picciurro
- "SEP IRA is a great weapon, especially for people that don't have employees that are just getting the ball rolling." - Chris Picciurro
- "The Solo K or solo Roth 401(k) could be a great weapon for them [entrepreneurs]. It allows you to take a loan against your solo 401(k) for up to $50,000 tax-free." - Chris Picciurro
- "If you're in the situation where you have at least $100,000 or more to contribute to retirement, then the defined benefit plan might be a good option for you." - Chris Picciurro
Episode Sponsor (Chris is very excited about this!)
www.teachingtaxflow.com/pickleball
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:04):
Welcome to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast where the goal
is to empower and educate you tolegally and ethically minimize
taxes paid over your lifetime.Welcome back to the Teaching Tax
Flow podcast, everybody.
John Tripolsky (00:18):
Episode 78 today. We are here for the
entrepreneurs. If you may or maynot know that, that, now you do.
This show is a perfect exampleof that because we are gonna
dive head first into retirementaccounts for entrepreneurs. But
even more exciting than thattoday, we have a new sponsor and
I know Chris loves this one. Sobefore we jump into it, let's
(00:39):
take a brief moment and thankour sponsor.
Ad Read (00:45):
Hi. Chris Picciurro here, founder of Teaching Tax
Flow, co host of the TeachingTax Flow podcast, and pickleball
enthusiast. Yes. If you listento the podcast, you know almost
every episode we talk aboutpickleball, the most popular and
growing sport in America. Wehave tons of opportunities for
paddles and and pickleballs, butwe don't have a lot of great
gear on the market.
(01:05):
Well, I'm so excited to announcethat Sunsets and Dink's are now
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Because you are part of theteaching tax law community, you
get a 15% discount on all yourorders with them. I know I love
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(01:27):
wearing it, believe it or not,even at my level. Go to
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enter t t f 15 in the serve uppromo code area of your paddle
rack.
John Tripolsky (01:43):
Here we are back again. Kinda sounds like the
beginning of a rap song, but itis true. We are here to talk
about those retirement accountsfor entrepreneurs. How exciting
or more exciting could thatpossibly be considering that one
of the things when you go intobusiness for yourself,
maybe on the bottom of
the list, you're looking thatfar into the future. So let's
(02:04):
make everybody feel a little bitbetter here today. And of
course, the bald guy with allthe knowledge, Chris Picciurro
We've brought him back to hisown show. How's it going, Chris?
Chris Picciurro (02:14):
It's going great. I'm excited to be back
and, excited to talk about thistopic because we talk a lot in
the Teaching Tax Flow communityabout retirement and income
planning. But one of the thingswith entrepreneurs, and we're
gonna talk about commonretirement plans for
entrepreneurs on this episode,is that for entrepreneurs, we
(02:35):
don't have a set it and forgetit option. You know? A lot of
people that are an employee fora long period of time, that
first week, they start the job.
They they, you know, fill outall their forms. They say, oh,
I'm gonna put a percentage ofmoney into the 401 k plan, and
then they kinda forget about it.And, you know, hopefully for
them, they'd never touch thatmoney, and 30 years later, they
(02:55):
look and they've got a nicesize, nice nice large amount in
that 401 k plan or whenever theyleave that employer, they could
roll it into another plan. Butfor entrepreneurs, and I've been
one for over 20 years now, it'son us to take the bull by the
horns in our retirement, talkabout in the teaching tax flow
(03:15):
community that we should alwayswork with our board of
directors. And one of the peopleon your board of directors,
other than your taxprofessional, would be, someone
that you go to for financialadvice, a licensed financial
adviser that you trust toaccomplish your goals.
But what we want the listenersto to to hear now and and if
(03:36):
you're an entrepreneur or eventhinking about becoming an
entrepreneur, get a good idea ofwhat plans are out there. We're
gonna start with the simplest ofplans and go all the way to the
more complex common retirementplans, understand that there are
even more complex plans thanthis potentially, and then we're
gonna talk through differenttypes of deadlines and
contributions and I'm gonna giveyou some tips and tricks to
(03:59):
determine and navigate what planis best for you. And, Chris,
this too, you
John Tripolsky (04:05):
know, you mentioned it pretty much right
out of the gate here. Right? Is,you know, there is no set it or
forget it or is I somehow pulledit out of thin air one day and
referred to it as an easy bakeoven. Right? It just doesn't
exist for this.
And for those of you that may belistening and saying, oh, well,
you know what? I work formyself. I'm too busy to, you
know, bother myself with this,or I just got too much stuff
(04:26):
going on. Trust me. You're notthe only one.
I've fallen to this myselfearlier on, but the good news is
there's tons of options. So eventhough there's more options,
obviously, there's moreresponsibility. But also too,
it's, you know, it's one ofthose things, Chris, and I think
you would agree with this too.Right? That most people, like,
go into business for themselves,I think we all knew or know
(04:48):
earlier on that, like, I amgonna have to dedicate
everything I have towards thislittle egg that we want to
eventually hatch and grow where,you know, unfortunately, this
sometimes becomes a situationwhere planning this far down the
road becomes an afterthought,which is not a good thing.
So, Chris, I'm sure you you seethat more than anybody else here
(05:10):
when we talk about that, but isthat sometimes, sometimes the
situation for lack of betterterms?
Ad Read (05:16):
Absolutely. Because we get in it's very easy for people
to slip into habits. They couldbe financial. They could be a
bunch of things. They could begood, bad, or indifferent, could
have a bad pickleball habit,which I don't think is a bad
thing, but, you know, I've I'vejust gotten, like, some of my
healthier habits is that I'veI've gotten to the point where I
love to exercise first thing inthe morning.
We're talking about 6 in themorning to 7:30, and it's just a
(05:37):
habit I get into. And and sowhen I which is usually pretty
good, but let's say I havesomething going on with the kids
or just with you know, sometimesI work usually when we're
traveling, John, I I alwayscarve out time to get get the
heart rate up. But, if somethingcomes up at that time and I go
it's funny. Just the other thislast week, I I went for a run
at, like, I don't know, 5 PM.And I was just like, man, this
(06:00):
doesn't I'm struggling here.
Chris Picciurro (06:02):
This is weird because it's it's not my habit
to go at that time of the day.So as entrepreneurs, you're
right, John. When we firststart, we usually we usually
fall into this, I've got asurvival mode, and you're not
into forming habits with,financial habits because you're
you're usually taking almost allof your revenue and dumping it
right back into your operationsto to grow or to survive. So
(06:26):
that's, you know, that's one ofthe things to consider, but
we're gonna we're gonna breakthat. You're gonna learn in this
podcast that being anentrepreneur actually gives you
a little more flexibility thanan employee when it comes to
retirement plan contributions.
Ad Read (06:38):
And, and let's dive in and start with your your most
basic type of retirementaccount. We've talked about this
in the future. And within theteaching tax flow system, we
define different tax strategiesand different concepts as basic,
advanced, or ultra advanced.Basic's typically is gonna be a
tax strategy or concept that youcan do on your own. You could
(07:00):
do, you could be in your pajamason the computer and execute that
strategy.
Advanced typically means you'regonna wanna work with a tax
professional or financialadviser to make sure that that
happens, but it's stillimplementation wise. It's
usually a one person or oneoutfit implementation team. And
then ultra advances where we'rebringing in multiple resources
(07:23):
from from multiple entities ororganizations to make sure that
the that the strategy is isexecuted properly. But let's
start with basic. Basic is gonnabe your traditional or Roth IRA,
individual retirement account,account type of plan rather.
(07:44):
You know, I'm I'm gonna do mybest to not use acronyms, at
least in the beginning. So IRAstands for individual retirement
account. This is a basic type ofplan, and it's for individuals.
We get questions all the timelike, hey. I own a business, a
single member LLC, or I own thebusiness is gonna make my
contribution to the IRA for me.
(08:05):
Okay. Well, this is anindividual plan, hence, IRA.
There are limits. Those limitsare indexed for inflation, but
about $7,000 per person. There'ssome provisions where you can
put an extra $1,000 a year in,if you're over the age of 50.
There is no employer match. Soit's it's you're just an
individual. You have to haveearned income, and there are
(08:28):
some thresholds as far as incomethat could phase you out of a
contribution. Timing isimportant as well. We talk about
some strategies are a b, andsome are not a b.
Now in some ways, a b could be abad word, John, but not here. A
b means, you know or I'm sorry.A p. Oh my gosh. Sorry.
(08:50):
Some strategies are so a b meansa basic strategy. A p means post
year end. So some strategiescould be executed after the end
of the year. Some have to bedone by December 31st. So this
is a p strategy, meaning youhave until April 15th of any
year to make a contribution forthe previous year.
So traditional or Roth IRA, thereal this this is our most basic
(09:12):
type of retirement account. It'sa great starter account. It's
not an account that's designedspecifically for entrepreneurs,
yet it's utilized by manyentrepreneurs when they get
started.
Intro (09:25):
You know, we talked about different options here. It's
nice that there's not just 1, 2,or even 3 things that somebody
can choose. Right? There'svarious options for, call it
complexity. Right?
Like, you had mentioned basicadvanced, ultra advanced, but
then also too. Right? Like,different. It's almost like, you
(09:45):
know, not specificallyinvestments. Right?
But one shoe does not fit all inthe case here. So I know you're
gonna dive into some other oneshere too, but let's almost as we
move along here too, maybe weuse a use a couple examples.
Right? So maybe we look at this,say you're a solopreneur
freelancer making 75,000 a yearall the way up to, say, a
(10:07):
consultant making 2 to $300,000a year. So, obviously, there's
different scenarios, differentindividuals, but I know you have
some great information here,which will will cover some of
these in more detail.
Ad Read (10:18):
Absolutely. And a lot of times, people in the
community and and even clientsin the private CBA practice come
to us and say, well, what whatshould I what retirement plan
should I utilize? The answerlies within the question that I
ask them next. How much how muchdo you wanna commit per year to
your plan? How much are youcommitting per year financially,
(10:41):
to the retirement plan?
That tells so if if you'resomeone that's getting started
and you're looking to invest$5,000 per year, then a
traditional IRA, assuming youmeet the other requirements,
would be in a great startingspot. Because the more complex
the type of retirement plan, themore administrative cost is
associated with it. So as wewalk in, let's let's talk about
(11:05):
the the second type of plan thatis an IRA, so individual
retirement account, retirementaccount that's specifically
designed for people that areself employed or entrepreneurs.
That's a SEP IRA, SEP. Thatstands for simplified employee
pension plan.
So if you're that retirementaccount or if you're that self
(11:28):
employed individual and youwanna put money into a
retirement account, and let'ssay you wanna put in more than
you can into a traditional IRAor let's say you're phased out
of putting money in yourtraditional IRA, maybe your
spouse is a high income earner.If they are, congratulations on
winning one of the one of themarriage Olympics. But let's say
that's that's the case. You canput in the lesser of 25% of your
(11:53):
net earnings or depending onyour age, in the $60,000 range.
So, John, in your example of theperson that let's say their net
income's $80,000, they're selfemployed, and they don't have
any other employees.
Let's say their spouse is a highincome earner and they couldn't
do a traditional IRA. In thatcase, they could put up to
(12:13):
$15,000 into that SOP IRA andget that tax deduction in the
year of the contribution. Thenice thing about the SEP that is
much that is similar to atraditional Roth, but gives even
more flexibility, is the SEPcontribution is not due until
the tax deadline of your taxreturn. Now, John, you know I
put a lot of content out theretalking about how I love tax
(12:36):
extensions and how they allowyou extra time, to implement tax
strategies. So for this case, ifyou extend your tax return, you
have actually till October 15thon a personal return to make
your SEP contribution for theprevious year and still get a
deduction on the previous year.
So this is an advance retirementplan for entrepreneurs, It's for
(12:58):
employers only. So if I have ana couple employees, then most
likely they would, over time,become eligible, where I would
have to contribute for a set forthem. I have a lot of
flexibility on the deadline, andI can contribute, in general,
25% of my net income unless thatexceeds, you know, over, let's
(13:19):
say, in the $60,000 range. Ifthat's the case, then you
usually would wanna move into adifferent plan. So but the SEP
IRA is a is a great weapon, inin especially for people that
don't have employees that arejust getting getting the ball
rolling.
Intro (13:33):
Right. Right. And and, Chris, you mentioned that too.
You know, obviously, there'scertain limitations within
certain of these as well too. Sokind of, you know, reiterating
what you mentioned on, you know,a little bit earlier on too.
It's, you know, within yourpersonal board of directors
having your financial person,your tax person that you go to.
It's it's really Corey CoreyO'graphing of the dance. Well, I
(13:57):
couldn't say that word today.I'm as bad with saying words as
as you are letters, man. It'slike you give a tax guy an
acronym, and he's fine.
You give him one letter, and hedrops the ball. It's like, you
know, you give a marketing guy ahard word that doesn't spell
check, and, apparently, I can'teven say it.
Ad Read (14:10):
But even well, that's alright. We've got spell check,
John. We we we're gonna be fine.
Intro (14:15):
We got chat g p t and spell check. I think we'd yeah.
We'll be alright. So, Chris, youyou mentioned a couple things
too in there. You know, I I knowwe threw out some of the
examples of the scenarios ofcertain types of individuals.
Before we get too far along inthese, you know, maybe what's an
example besides doing nothing?Right? Say somebody from day 1,
(14:36):
they say, yes. You know, this iswhat I wanna contribute to. This
is this is what I'm looking for.
Do they really again, being thatentrepreneurs are very busy
people, especially at thebeginning there. Do you see it,
or is it a bad idea sometimesjust to set up anything and just
jump into it, contribute, andthen change it to something else
(14:57):
down the road? Or was yoursuggestion really be, you know,
maybe pump the brakes for 6months or a year, then look at
your situation and planaccordingly. In case in point,
right? A freelancer, you mighthave a freelance graphic
designer, say, for example,Their ambitions are extremely
high, but they have no idea howmuch income they're gonna bring
in.
So by them making a decision onwhat type of account they wanna
(15:20):
start from the beginning, Isthat a good idea or a bad idea?
Ad Read (15:23):
Well, I would say for a freelancer with no employees,
the best thing to do is don't doanything in the very beginning.
Because remember, with thetraditional IRA or Roth IRA or
the sub IRA, you have until thenext year to determine if you're
eligible to make a contributionand what that maximum
contribution is. So although I'mso what maybe what you might
wanna do is set up a separatechecking account. You call it
(15:46):
your tax account, call it yourretirement account. But just set
that money aside, not into abecause what the problem is is
if people contribute to aretirement account I just had a
private CPA firm client.
Today, I wanted to give him apop knot because he he went and
contributed to an I Roth IRA,and and once we found out, he
had to take it out. Right? Sothere's really no reason to rush
(16:09):
those contributions in those twocases. So I would say, you know,
wait it out. Let's see wherewhere you stand, and let's make
sure it makes sense tax wisebecause especially if you're
you're a freelancer just gettingstarted, your taxable income
might not be very high.
So you might be a gold diagnosisor green diagnosis, meaning a
Roth would make more sense thanthe traditional IRA. So that
(16:29):
that's my advice for someonejust getting started. Now let's
climb up the complexity ladder alittle bit. We're talking about
2 more advanced retirementaccount types for entrepreneurs.
One of them is something we usewithin our private CPA practice.
So we have, I think, about 8 to10 participants in this plan.
It's called the Simple IRA. Andwhen Simple IRA was created, by
(16:53):
congress because they wantedsmaller employees, employers, to
be able to offer a retirementplan for their employees that's
very inexpensive, that thecompliance fees are low compared
to maybe forming a a four zeroone k plan. That's where the
simple IRA was born. So thesimple IRA is an advanced
(17:16):
retirement plan.
Again, we use it for in ourprivate practice. It does
involve the contributors areemployees and employers. So
employees for the 20, 23 taxyear can contribute, and this
goes through a w two. This isvery important. Employees
contribute through w two up to$15,500 plus there's some catch
(17:37):
up contributions if you're overthe age of 50.
The employer gets the choice ofmatching either 2 2% of of their
wages or up to a 3% match basedon what the employee does. So
some employers say, look, I'mgonna contribute to a simple IRA
for all my employees a flat 2%if you put money in or not. Some
(17:58):
employers say, no. We're gonnamatch up to 3%, but we but
you've gotta put 3% in and thenwe'll match your 3%. And that's
what we do.
We want our team members to atleast put 3% away into their
into that simple IRA. So simpleIRA is great, in my opinion, for
employers that have, let's say,20 employees or less and that
(18:19):
wanna that that want to be ableto to to allow their employees
to put in more money throughtheir w two than they could in a
traditional IRA and they wannamatch some and contribute some
to the employee's retirementplan.
Intro (18:35):
Gotcha. Gotcha. And that's a good good explanation
of them too. And I know there'sa couple other ones that really
get into the into thecomplexity, the weeds. I I like
how the way you describe that.
It was a complexity ladder. It'sa good way.
Ad Read (18:48):
It is a complexity ladder, and let's keep climbing
into the 3rd advanced commoncommon retirement plan for
entrepreneurs is the solo k orsolo Roth k. Cool thing with the
solo k is is that it's forsomeone that is that is self
employed and has no employeeswith the exception of themselves
(19:09):
or their spouse. So it could besomeone that owns a c
corporation, that they'rethey're an employee and their
spouse is an employee. It couldbe someone that's an s corp. It
could be someone that's justself employed and employs their
spouse.
So this allows someone we talkabout income shifting to family
members. This allows someone tocreate a 401 k plan and make it
(19:30):
what's called a solo k plan,which means your your your, your
complexity is less than a safeharbor 401 k plan, which I'll
talk about in a moment. Youdon't have to worry about
unfairly treating lowerly lowercompensated employees because
you're the only employee, youand your spouse. It also allows
you to put significantly moremoney into the 4 zero one k than
(19:51):
than even a simple IRA. So for2023, it's $22,500 each employee
could put in, and there's abonus if they're over the age of
50.
And then the employer, which isyou, can kick in another up to,
let's say, in the $40,000 rangeeach. So my point is is if I if
you run into a a taxpayer that,that has a significant amount of
(20:17):
net income that says, I wannaput up to $100,000 into a
retirement plan. It's myself andmy spouse. We run this business
together. We don't have anyother employees.
The solo k or solo Roth 401kreally, really could be a great
weapon for them. One other thingwith the solo k, and we're not
advocating doing this withoutconsulting your tax professional
(20:38):
and financial advisor, but youcan take a loan against your for
solo four zero one k for up to$50,000 or half of the vested
value tax free. So it does allowthe owner, this that that self
employed person, to have someflexibility with and be able to
take money out as a loan insteadof a taxable distribution plus
(20:59):
10% penalty. So solo four zeroone k or solo Roth, great for a
someone self employed or istheir only employee or is them
and their spouse are the onlyemployee that's looking to put
away, let's say, $40,000 or moreinto retirement.
Intro (21:17):
So, really, we've covered what what we had about 4 of them
that we've gone through so faron these, and obviously, there's
the the much more advanced ones.So we won't call it the dark
side, but these are definitelynot for your, for your DIY
attempters for the most part.Right?
Ad Read (21:37):
Absolutely. We've got 2 ultra advanced common retirement
plan types for entrepreneurs.Reminder, on the simple IRA and
solo k, those are gonna gothrough your w two wages. The
solo k, unless you're selfemployed and and and you don't
have w two wages, if you're justa schedule c person, then it
(21:57):
wouldn't go your contributionswouldn't go through that, a w w
two. But let's talk about safeharbor 401 k.
Why is it ultra advanced? Well,because with a safe harbor 401
k, there there are more rules,more testing, and this is for
gonna be for someone that wantsto have a 401k plan, wants to
create those opportunities toput between employee and
employer, you know, $40,000 plusaway per year, but also has
(22:21):
employees. In the 401 k rules,make sure that employees are
treated fairly, even if you haveseveral that are that are lower
in compensation or you have asmall group of people that are
that are high in compensation.So that's why it's a safe
harbor. You're gonna hire a 3rdparty administrator, what we
(22:43):
call in the business a TPA, andthey're gonna help you make sure
that your 401 k plan iscompliant, hence the safe
harbor, and that it's notfavoring just the higher, higher
income earners.
The limits as far ascontributions from an employee
and employer are the same as aSoloK. So, basically, this is
gonna be a SoloK for people thathave, employees. And this is
(23:07):
gonna be a great fit for people.You know, we talked about, hey.
If someone has 20 or lessemployees, that simple IRA is
good.
If you have more than 20employees or if you if you wanna
contribute significantly moremoney than just a 3% match,
which is still generous from thesimple IRA, a safe harbor 4 zero
one k plan would be a greatoption. The challenge is is that
(23:28):
your your administrative costsare gonna be significantly
higher with a safe harbor 4 zeroone k plan. We're talking, you
know, upwards of 5 to $10,000 ayear potentially versus a simple
IRA. Awesome.
Intro (23:41):
Awesome. And then we'll save the best for last or the
most complex for last. Right?And I and I knew this one was
coming. And some and this one,if I remember right too, this
one is specifically foremployers.
So this is something that evenif you're an employee, this may
be something that your, yourfearless leader is putting in
(24:02):
place or has put in place foryou as an employee if you
haven't gone to the entrepreneurside of things yet.
Ad Read (24:10):
Correct. So the most complex ultra advanced
retirement plan for employer andentrepreneurs is a defined
benefit plan. Now a or DB plan,someone call some people call
it. But a defined benefit plancan work in concert with a 401 k
plan or a SEP or a simple IRA.But what a defined benefit plan
(24:33):
does is it allows you tocontribute significantly more
money into your retirementaccount.
And the average employercontribution, which if you're
self employed, you'd be theemployer, is about $250,000 per
year. Now the amount you cancontribute to the defined
benefit plan depends on your, aswe like to say, situationally
(24:54):
dependent. And it would thereare some significant
administrative costs because youdo need a 3rd party
administrator. You need to hirean actuary professional each
year and calculate what yourmaximum contribution is gonna
be. But let's put it like this.
If you're in the situation whereyou have at least a $100,000 or
(25:16):
more to contribute toretirement, I would almost say
250 or more, then the definedbenefit plan might be a good
option for you. If not, I wouldstick to the 4 zero one k plans
for now. If you are in thatsituation, congratulations, and
really look at that definedbenefit plan. There are some
restrictions. There are somepluses and minuses.
But, again, you know, if you'recontributing a 150,000, $200,000
(25:40):
per year into this plan and and,you know, reducing your current
year tax by 60 to $80,000, thatis well worth the the
administrative costs and effortto, to implement this defined
benefit plan. Ultra advanced, sowe're gonna bring in that team
of people. We're gonna expandyour board of directors to make
sure we get the right people andthe right seats to help you out.
(26:02):
Chris, I
Intro (26:03):
have so many notes on these. I knew we had some of
these, but now going backthrough my notes, trying to even
figure out what I was writingdown there because some of these
are, you know, a little bit moreconfusing, obviously, complex
than other ones. So, again, kindof you know, it's fun doing
these podcasts because I kindaconsider myself more of the more
of the average Joe, and, heck, Ieven learned a couple things
here. It's always entertaining.
Ad Read (26:24):
Well, my advice to put a bow on this, and you're no
average Joe or John, my friend.But my my advice is this, work
backwards. Come up with a plan,where you think you wanna be at
when in retirement, work with alicensed financial adviser, make
sure that you determine whatkind type of cash flow you have
available. You know, you don'twanna be taking money out of
(26:45):
your living, your house paymentor your utility payment to put
into retirement. You know,you've got this has gotta be
money you're gonna you'rewilling to set aside and, let
grow.
And from there, you could andthen we have to look at, do you
have employees, what typestructure you are? And then we
figure out what plan works best.That's a great stopping point
(27:06):
for us on this topic today. Andas I always, always like to
close it out with, we'll seeeverybody back here,
Intro (27:14):
same time, different day, different topic here on the
Teaching Techflow podcast. Thecontent provided is for
educational purposes only. Weencourage you to seek
personalized investment advicefrom your financial
(27:34):
professional. For all tax andlegal advice, please consult
your CPA or attorney. Investmentadvisory services are offered
through Cabin Advisors, aregistered investment adviser.
Securities are offered throughCabin Securities, a registered
broker dealer. Offerings canonly be made through an offering
memorandum, and you shouldcarefully examine the risk
(27:55):
factors and other informationcontained in the memorandum.
Welcome to the Teaching Tax Flow podcast where the goal
is to empower and educate you tolegally and ethically minimize
taxes paid over your lifetime.Welcome back to the Teaching Tax
Flow podcast, everybody.
John Tripolsky (00:18):
Episode 78 today. We are here for the
entrepreneurs. If you may or maynot know that, that, now you do.
This show is a perfect exampleof that because we are gonna
dive head first into retirementaccounts for entrepreneurs. But
even more exciting than thattoday, we have a new sponsor and
I know Chris loves this one. Sobefore we jump into it, let's
(00:39):
take a brief moment and thankour sponsor.
Ad Read (00:45):
Hi. Chris Picciurro here, founder of Teaching Tax
Flow, co host of the TeachingTax Flow podcast, and pickleball
enthusiast. Yes. If you listento the podcast, you know almost
every episode we talk aboutpickleball, the most popular and
growing sport in America. Wehave tons of opportunities for
paddles and and pickleballs, butwe don't have a lot of great
gear on the market.
(01:05):
Well, I'm so excited to announcethat Sunsets and Dink's are now
a sponsor of the Teaching TaxSlow podcast and produce amazing
gear, not only to look at, butyou feel confident on the court.
Because you are part of theteaching tax law community, you
get a 15% discount on all yourorders with them. I know I love
the gear I received and I havequite a good record while
(01:27):
wearing it, believe it or not,even at my level. Go to
teachingtaxflow.combackslashpickleball and simply
enter t t f 15 in the serve uppromo code area of your paddle
rack.
John Tripolsky (01:43):
Here we are back again. Kinda sounds like the
beginning of a rap song, but itis true. We are here to talk
about those retirement accountsfor entrepreneurs. How exciting
or more exciting could thatpossibly be considering that one
of the things when you go intobusiness for yourself,
maybe on the bottom of
the list, you're looking thatfar into the future. So let's
(02:04):
make everybody feel a little bitbetter here today. And of
course, the bald guy with allthe knowledge, Chris Picciurro
We've brought him back to hisown show. How's it going, Chris?
Chris Picciurro (02:14):
It's going great. I'm excited to be back
and, excited to talk about thistopic because we talk a lot in
the Teaching Tax Flow communityabout retirement and income
planning. But one of the thingswith entrepreneurs, and we're
gonna talk about commonretirement plans for
entrepreneurs on this episode,is that for entrepreneurs, we
(02:35):
don't have a set it and forgetit option. You know? A lot of
people that are an employee fora long period of time, that
first week, they start the job.
They they, you know, fill outall their forms. They say, oh,
I'm gonna put a percentage ofmoney into the 401 k plan, and
then they kinda forget about it.And, you know, hopefully for
them, they'd never touch thatmoney, and 30 years later, they
(02:55):
look and they've got a nicesize, nice nice large amount in
that 401 k plan or whenever theyleave that employer, they could
roll it into another plan. Butfor entrepreneurs, and I've been
one for over 20 years now, it'son us to take the bull by the
horns in our retirement, talkabout in the teaching tax flow
(03:15):
community that we should alwayswork with our board of
directors. And one of the peopleon your board of directors,
other than your taxprofessional, would be, someone
that you go to for financialadvice, a licensed financial
adviser that you trust toaccomplish your goals.
But what we want the listenersto to to hear now and and if
(03:36):
you're an entrepreneur or eventhinking about becoming an
entrepreneur, get a good idea ofwhat plans are out there. We're
gonna start with the simplest ofplans and go all the way to the
more complex common retirementplans, understand that there are
even more complex plans thanthis potentially, and then we're
gonna talk through differenttypes of deadlines and
contributions and I'm gonna giveyou some tips and tricks to
(03:59):
determine and navigate what planis best for you. And, Chris,
this too, you
John Tripolsky (04:05):
know, you mentioned it pretty much right
out of the gate here. Right? Is,you know, there is no set it or
forget it or is I somehow pulledit out of thin air one day and
referred to it as an easy bakeoven. Right? It just doesn't
exist for this.
And for those of you that may belistening and saying, oh, well,
you know what? I work formyself. I'm too busy to, you
know, bother myself with this,or I just got too much stuff
(04:26):
going on. Trust me. You're notthe only one.
I've fallen to this myselfearlier on, but the good news is
there's tons of options. So eventhough there's more options,
obviously, there's moreresponsibility. But also too,
it's, you know, it's one ofthose things, Chris, and I think
you would agree with this too.Right? That most people, like,
go into business for themselves,I think we all knew or know
(04:48):
earlier on that, like, I amgonna have to dedicate
everything I have towards thislittle egg that we want to
eventually hatch and grow where,you know, unfortunately, this
sometimes becomes a situationwhere planning this far down the
road becomes an afterthought,which is not a good thing.
So, Chris, I'm sure you you seethat more than anybody else here
(05:10):
when we talk about that, but isthat sometimes, sometimes the
situation for lack of betterterms?
Ad Read (05:16):
Absolutely. Because we get in it's very easy for people
to slip into habits. They couldbe financial. They could be a
bunch of things. They could begood, bad, or indifferent, could
have a bad pickleball habit,which I don't think is a bad
thing, but, you know, I've I'vejust gotten, like, some of my
healthier habits is that I'veI've gotten to the point where I
love to exercise first thing inthe morning.
We're talking about 6 in themorning to 7:30, and it's just a
(05:37):
habit I get into. And and sowhen I which is usually pretty
good, but let's say I havesomething going on with the kids
or just with you know, sometimesI work usually when we're
traveling, John, I I alwayscarve out time to get get the
heart rate up. But, if somethingcomes up at that time and I go
it's funny. Just the other thislast week, I I went for a run
at, like, I don't know, 5 PM.And I was just like, man, this
(06:00):
doesn't I'm struggling here.
Chris Picciurro (06:02):
This is weird because it's it's not my habit
to go at that time of the day.So as entrepreneurs, you're
right, John. When we firststart, we usually we usually
fall into this, I've got asurvival mode, and you're not
into forming habits with,financial habits because you're
you're usually taking almost allof your revenue and dumping it
right back into your operationsto to grow or to survive. So
(06:26):
that's, you know, that's one ofthe things to consider, but
we're gonna we're gonna breakthat. You're gonna learn in this
podcast that being anentrepreneur actually gives you
a little more flexibility thanan employee when it comes to
retirement plan contributions.
Ad Read (06:38):
And, and let's dive in and start with your your most
basic type of retirementaccount. We've talked about this
in the future. And within theteaching tax flow system, we
define different tax strategiesand different concepts as basic,
advanced, or ultra advanced.Basic's typically is gonna be a
tax strategy or concept that youcan do on your own. You could
(07:00):
do, you could be in your pajamason the computer and execute that
strategy.
Advanced typically means you'regonna wanna work with a tax
professional or financialadviser to make sure that that
happens, but it's stillimplementation wise. It's
usually a one person or oneoutfit implementation team. And
then ultra advances where we'rebringing in multiple resources
(07:23):
from from multiple entities ororganizations to make sure that
the that the strategy is isexecuted properly. But let's
start with basic. Basic is gonnabe your traditional or Roth IRA,
individual retirement account,account type of plan rather.
(07:44):
You know, I'm I'm gonna do mybest to not use acronyms, at
least in the beginning. So IRAstands for individual retirement
account. This is a basic type ofplan, and it's for individuals.
We get questions all the timelike, hey. I own a business, a
single member LLC, or I own thebusiness is gonna make my
contribution to the IRA for me.
(08:05):
Okay. Well, this is anindividual plan, hence, IRA.
There are limits. Those limitsare indexed for inflation, but
about $7,000 per person. There'ssome provisions where you can
put an extra $1,000 a year in,if you're over the age of 50.
There is no employer match. Soit's it's you're just an
individual. You have to haveearned income, and there are
(08:28):
some thresholds as far as incomethat could phase you out of a
contribution. Timing isimportant as well. We talk about
some strategies are a b, andsome are not a b.
Now in some ways, a b could be abad word, John, but not here. A
b means, you know or I'm sorry.A p. Oh my gosh. Sorry.
(08:50):
Some strategies are so a b meansa basic strategy. A p means post
year end. So some strategiescould be executed after the end
of the year. Some have to bedone by December 31st. So this
is a p strategy, meaning youhave until April 15th of any
year to make a contribution forthe previous year.
So traditional or Roth IRA, thereal this this is our most basic
(09:12):
type of retirement account. It'sa great starter account. It's
not an account that's designedspecifically for entrepreneurs,
yet it's utilized by manyentrepreneurs when they get
started.
Intro (09:25):
You know, we talked about different options here. It's
nice that there's not just 1, 2,or even 3 things that somebody
can choose. Right? There'svarious options for, call it
complexity. Right?
Like, you had mentioned basicadvanced, ultra advanced, but
then also too. Right? Like,different. It's almost like, you
(09:45):
know, not specificallyinvestments. Right?
But one shoe does not fit all inthe case here. So I know you're
gonna dive into some other oneshere too, but let's almost as we
move along here too, maybe weuse a use a couple examples.
Right? So maybe we look at this,say you're a solopreneur
freelancer making 75,000 a yearall the way up to, say, a
(10:07):
consultant making 2 to $300,000a year. So, obviously, there's
different scenarios, differentindividuals, but I know you have
some great information here,which will will cover some of
these in more detail.
Ad Read (10:18):
Absolutely. And a lot of times, people in the
community and and even clientsin the private CBA practice come
to us and say, well, what whatshould I what retirement plan
should I utilize? The answerlies within the question that I
ask them next. How much how muchdo you wanna commit per year to
your plan? How much are youcommitting per year financially,
(10:41):
to the retirement plan?
That tells so if if you'resomeone that's getting started
and you're looking to invest$5,000 per year, then a
traditional IRA, assuming youmeet the other requirements,
would be in a great startingspot. Because the more complex
the type of retirement plan, themore administrative cost is
associated with it. So as wewalk in, let's let's talk about
(11:05):
the the second type of plan thatis an IRA, so individual
retirement account, retirementaccount that's specifically
designed for people that areself employed or entrepreneurs.
That's a SEP IRA, SEP. Thatstands for simplified employee
pension plan.
So if you're that retirementaccount or if you're that self
(11:28):
employed individual and youwanna put money into a
retirement account, and let'ssay you wanna put in more than
you can into a traditional IRAor let's say you're phased out
of putting money in yourtraditional IRA, maybe your
spouse is a high income earner.If they are, congratulations on
winning one of the one of themarriage Olympics. But let's say
that's that's the case. You canput in the lesser of 25% of your
(11:53):
net earnings or depending onyour age, in the $60,000 range.
So, John, in your example of theperson that let's say their net
income's $80,000, they're selfemployed, and they don't have
any other employees.
Let's say their spouse is a highincome earner and they couldn't
do a traditional IRA. In thatcase, they could put up to
(12:13):
$15,000 into that SOP IRA andget that tax deduction in the
year of the contribution. Thenice thing about the SEP that is
much that is similar to atraditional Roth, but gives even
more flexibility, is the SEPcontribution is not due until
the tax deadline of your taxreturn. Now, John, you know I
put a lot of content out theretalking about how I love tax
(12:36):
extensions and how they allowyou extra time, to implement tax
strategies. So for this case, ifyou extend your tax return, you
have actually till October 15thon a personal return to make
your SEP contribution for theprevious year and still get a
deduction on the previous year.
So this is an advance retirementplan for entrepreneurs, It's for
(12:58):
employers only. So if I have ana couple employees, then most
likely they would, over time,become eligible, where I would
have to contribute for a set forthem. I have a lot of
flexibility on the deadline, andI can contribute, in general,
25% of my net income unless thatexceeds, you know, over, let's
(13:19):
say, in the $60,000 range. Ifthat's the case, then you
usually would wanna move into adifferent plan. So but the SEP
IRA is a is a great weapon, inin especially for people that
don't have employees that arejust getting getting the ball
rolling.
Intro (13:33):
Right. Right. And and, Chris, you mentioned that too.
You know, obviously, there'scertain limitations within
certain of these as well too. Sokind of, you know, reiterating
what you mentioned on, you know,a little bit earlier on too.
It's, you know, within yourpersonal board of directors
having your financial person,your tax person that you go to.
It's it's really Corey CoreyO'graphing of the dance. Well, I
(13:57):
couldn't say that word today.I'm as bad with saying words as
as you are letters, man. It'slike you give a tax guy an
acronym, and he's fine.
You give him one letter, and hedrops the ball. It's like, you
know, you give a marketing guy ahard word that doesn't spell
check, and, apparently, I can'teven say it.
Ad Read (14:10):
But even well, that's alright. We've got spell check,
John. We we we're gonna be fine.
Intro (14:15):
We got chat g p t and spell check. I think we'd yeah.
We'll be alright. So, Chris, youyou mentioned a couple things
too in there. You know, I I knowwe threw out some of the
examples of the scenarios ofcertain types of individuals.
Before we get too far along inthese, you know, maybe what's an
example besides doing nothing?Right? Say somebody from day 1,
(14:36):
they say, yes. You know, this iswhat I wanna contribute to. This
is this is what I'm looking for.
Do they really again, being thatentrepreneurs are very busy
people, especially at thebeginning there. Do you see it,
or is it a bad idea sometimesjust to set up anything and just
jump into it, contribute, andthen change it to something else
(14:57):
down the road? Or was yoursuggestion really be, you know,
maybe pump the brakes for 6months or a year, then look at
your situation and planaccordingly. In case in point,
right? A freelancer, you mighthave a freelance graphic
designer, say, for example,Their ambitions are extremely
high, but they have no idea howmuch income they're gonna bring
in.
So by them making a decision onwhat type of account they wanna
(15:20):
start from the beginning, Isthat a good idea or a bad idea?
Ad Read (15:23):
Well, I would say for a freelancer with no employees,
the best thing to do is don't doanything in the very beginning.
Because remember, with thetraditional IRA or Roth IRA or
the sub IRA, you have until thenext year to determine if you're
eligible to make a contributionand what that maximum
contribution is. So although I'mso what maybe what you might
wanna do is set up a separatechecking account. You call it
(15:46):
your tax account, call it yourretirement account. But just set
that money aside, not into abecause what the problem is is
if people contribute to aretirement account I just had a
private CPA firm client.
Today, I wanted to give him apop knot because he he went and
contributed to an I Roth IRA,and and once we found out, he
had to take it out. Right? Sothere's really no reason to rush
(16:09):
those contributions in those twocases. So I would say, you know,
wait it out. Let's see wherewhere you stand, and let's make
sure it makes sense tax wisebecause especially if you're
you're a freelancer just gettingstarted, your taxable income
might not be very high.
So you might be a gold diagnosisor green diagnosis, meaning a
Roth would make more sense thanthe traditional IRA. So that
(16:29):
that's my advice for someonejust getting started. Now let's
climb up the complexity ladder alittle bit. We're talking about
2 more advanced retirementaccount types for entrepreneurs.
One of them is something we usewithin our private CPA practice.
So we have, I think, about 8 to10 participants in this plan.
It's called the Simple IRA. Andwhen Simple IRA was created, by
(16:53):
congress because they wantedsmaller employees, employers, to
be able to offer a retirementplan for their employees that's
very inexpensive, that thecompliance fees are low compared
to maybe forming a a four zeroone k plan. That's where the
simple IRA was born. So thesimple IRA is an advanced
(17:16):
retirement plan.
Again, we use it for in ourprivate practice. It does
involve the contributors areemployees and employers. So
employees for the 20, 23 taxyear can contribute, and this
goes through a w two. This isvery important. Employees
contribute through w two up to$15,500 plus there's some catch
(17:37):
up contributions if you're overthe age of 50.
The employer gets the choice ofmatching either 2 2% of of their
wages or up to a 3% match basedon what the employee does. So
some employers say, look, I'mgonna contribute to a simple IRA
for all my employees a flat 2%if you put money in or not. Some
(17:58):
employers say, no. We're gonnamatch up to 3%, but we but
you've gotta put 3% in and thenwe'll match your 3%. And that's
what we do.
We want our team members to atleast put 3% away into their
into that simple IRA. So simpleIRA is great, in my opinion, for
employers that have, let's say,20 employees or less and that
(18:19):
wanna that that want to be ableto to to allow their employees
to put in more money throughtheir w two than they could in a
traditional IRA and they wannamatch some and contribute some
to the employee's retirementplan.
Intro (18:35):
Gotcha. Gotcha. And that's a good good explanation
of them too. And I know there'sa couple other ones that really
get into the into thecomplexity, the weeds. I I like
how the way you describe that.
It was a complexity ladder. It'sa good way.
Ad Read (18:48):
It is a complexity ladder, and let's keep climbing
into the 3rd advanced commoncommon retirement plan for
entrepreneurs is the solo k orsolo Roth k. Cool thing with the
solo k is is that it's forsomeone that is that is self
employed and has no employeeswith the exception of themselves
(19:09):
or their spouse. So it could besomeone that owns a c
corporation, that they'rethey're an employee and their
spouse is an employee. It couldbe someone that's an s corp. It
could be someone that's justself employed and employs their
spouse.
So this allows someone we talkabout income shifting to family
members. This allows someone tocreate a 401 k plan and make it
(19:30):
what's called a solo k plan,which means your your your, your
complexity is less than a safeharbor 401 k plan, which I'll
talk about in a moment. Youdon't have to worry about
unfairly treating lowerly lowercompensated employees because
you're the only employee, youand your spouse. It also allows
you to put significantly moremoney into the 4 zero one k than
(19:51):
than even a simple IRA. So for2023, it's $22,500 each employee
could put in, and there's abonus if they're over the age of
50.
And then the employer, which isyou, can kick in another up to,
let's say, in the $40,000 rangeeach. So my point is is if I if
you run into a a taxpayer that,that has a significant amount of
(20:17):
net income that says, I wannaput up to $100,000 into a
retirement plan. It's myself andmy spouse. We run this business
together. We don't have anyother employees.
The solo k or solo Roth 401kreally, really could be a great
weapon for them. One other thingwith the solo k, and we're not
advocating doing this withoutconsulting your tax professional
(20:38):
and financial advisor, but youcan take a loan against your for
solo four zero one k for up to$50,000 or half of the vested
value tax free. So it does allowthe owner, this that that self
employed person, to have someflexibility with and be able to
take money out as a loan insteadof a taxable distribution plus
(20:59):
10% penalty. So solo four zeroone k or solo Roth, great for a
someone self employed or istheir only employee or is them
and their spouse are the onlyemployee that's looking to put
away, let's say, $40,000 or moreinto retirement.
Intro (21:17):
So, really, we've covered what what we had about 4 of them
that we've gone through so faron these, and obviously, there's
the the much more advanced ones.So we won't call it the dark
side, but these are definitelynot for your, for your DIY
attempters for the most part.Right?
Ad Read (21:37):
Absolutely. We've got 2 ultra advanced common retirement
plan types for entrepreneurs.Reminder, on the simple IRA and
solo k, those are gonna gothrough your w two wages. The
solo k, unless you're selfemployed and and and you don't
have w two wages, if you're justa schedule c person, then it
(21:57):
wouldn't go your contributionswouldn't go through that, a w w
two. But let's talk about safeharbor 401 k.
Why is it ultra advanced? Well,because with a safe harbor 401
k, there there are more rules,more testing, and this is for
gonna be for someone that wantsto have a 401k plan, wants to
create those opportunities toput between employee and
employer, you know, $40,000 plusaway per year, but also has
(22:21):
employees. In the 401 k rules,make sure that employees are
treated fairly, even if you haveseveral that are that are lower
in compensation or you have asmall group of people that are
that are high in compensation.So that's why it's a safe
harbor. You're gonna hire a 3rdparty administrator, what we
(22:43):
call in the business a TPA, andthey're gonna help you make sure
that your 401 k plan iscompliant, hence the safe
harbor, and that it's notfavoring just the higher, higher
income earners.
The limits as far ascontributions from an employee
and employer are the same as aSoloK. So, basically, this is
gonna be a SoloK for people thathave, employees. And this is
(23:07):
gonna be a great fit for people.You know, we talked about, hey.
If someone has 20 or lessemployees, that simple IRA is
good.
If you have more than 20employees or if you if you wanna
contribute significantly moremoney than just a 3% match,
which is still generous from thesimple IRA, a safe harbor 4 zero
one k plan would be a greatoption. The challenge is is that
(23:28):
your your administrative costsare gonna be significantly
higher with a safe harbor 4 zeroone k plan. We're talking, you
know, upwards of 5 to $10,000 ayear potentially versus a simple
IRA. Awesome.
Intro (23:41):
Awesome. And then we'll save the best for last or the
most complex for last. Right?And I and I knew this one was
coming. And some and this one,if I remember right too, this
one is specifically foremployers.
So this is something that evenif you're an employee, this may
be something that your, yourfearless leader is putting in
(24:02):
place or has put in place foryou as an employee if you
haven't gone to the entrepreneurside of things yet.
Ad Read (24:10):
Correct. So the most complex ultra advanced
retirement plan for employer andentrepreneurs is a defined
benefit plan. Now a or DB plan,someone call some people call
it. But a defined benefit plancan work in concert with a 401 k
plan or a SEP or a simple IRA.But what a defined benefit plan
(24:33):
does is it allows you tocontribute significantly more
money into your retirementaccount.
And the average employercontribution, which if you're
self employed, you'd be theemployer, is about $250,000 per
year. Now the amount you cancontribute to the defined
benefit plan depends on your, aswe like to say, situationally
(24:54):
dependent. And it would thereare some significant
administrative costs because youdo need a 3rd party
administrator. You need to hirean actuary professional each
year and calculate what yourmaximum contribution is gonna
be. But let's put it like this.
If you're in the situation whereyou have at least a $100,000 or
(25:16):
more to contribute toretirement, I would almost say
250 or more, then the definedbenefit plan might be a good
option for you. If not, I wouldstick to the 4 zero one k plans
for now. If you are in thatsituation, congratulations, and
really look at that definedbenefit plan. There are some
restrictions. There are somepluses and minuses.
But, again, you know, if you'recontributing a 150,000, $200,000
(25:40):
per year into this plan and and,you know, reducing your current
year tax by 60 to $80,000, thatis well worth the the
administrative costs and effortto, to implement this defined
benefit plan. Ultra advanced, sowe're gonna bring in that team
of people. We're gonna expandyour board of directors to make
sure we get the right people andthe right seats to help you out.
(26:02):
Chris, I
Intro (26:03):
have so many notes on these. I knew we had some of
these, but now going backthrough my notes, trying to even
figure out what I was writingdown there because some of these
are, you know, a little bit moreconfusing, obviously, complex
than other ones. So, again, kindof you know, it's fun doing
these podcasts because I kindaconsider myself more of the more
of the average Joe, and, heck, Ieven learned a couple things
here. It's always entertaining.
Ad Read (26:24):
Well, my advice to put a bow on this, and you're no
average Joe or John, my friend.But my my advice is this, work
backwards. Come up with a plan,where you think you wanna be at
when in retirement, work with alicensed financial adviser, make
sure that you determine whatkind type of cash flow you have
available. You know, you don'twanna be taking money out of
(26:45):
your living, your house paymentor your utility payment to put
into retirement. You know,you've got this has gotta be
money you're gonna you'rewilling to set aside and, let
grow.
And from there, you could andthen we have to look at, do you
have employees, what typestructure you are? And then we
figure out what plan works best.That's a great stopping point
(27:06):
for us on this topic today. Andas I always, always like to
close it out with, we'll seeeverybody back here,
Intro (27:14):
same time, different day, different topic here on the
Teaching Techflow podcast. Thecontent provided is for
educational purposes only. Weencourage you to seek
personalized investment advicefrom your financial
(27:34):
professional. For all tax andlegal advice, please consult
your CPA or attorney. Investmentadvisory services are offered
through Cabin Advisors, aregistered investment adviser.
Securities are offered throughCabin Securities, a registered
broker dealer. Offerings canonly be made through an offering
memorandum, and you shouldcarefully examine the risk
(27:55):
factors and other informationcontained in the memorandum.
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