Culture That Counts: Why people-first service drives loyalty

What is great service in 2025? In this episode of Tech on Toast, powered by Zonal, we unpack why hospitality is still (and always will be) a people business—and how that truth fuels loyalty.

Host Chris Fletcher is joined by:

• Antony Pender — Founder, Yummy Collection (people-first pubs, bars & seafood concepts)

• Darren Smith — Head of Operations, Flat Iron (consistent, craveable steakhouse experiences)

• Gillian Nicholson — Sales Director, Zonal (tech that blends into brilliant service)

They dive into:

• Defining modern service: “relaxed rigor,” natural interactions, and letting guests drive the experience

• Training that sticks: stories, shadowing, and Gen Z–friendly, bite-size learning

• Tech that empowers (not replaces): surfacing the right info at the right time, seamlessly

• Culture and retention: flexibility, share schemes, meaningful recognition, and clear, kind feedback

• Protecting brand magic: value over hard sell; community, authenticity, and doing one thing exceptionally well

Pull quotes

“Hospitality is the job of making people happy.”
“It’s kind to be clear; it’s unkind to be unclear.”
“We’re far more emotionally intelligent than AI—especially right now.”

Catch up on the series: Missed an episode? Dive into the rest of our Loyalty Series to get fully up to speed.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Talk about how we define great service today.
We're in the job of making people happy.
I mean, hospitality is always about people.
Anyone who walks in the door, wewant them to feel like they've
been here before. Don't try and cookie cut
everyone into the same place. But actually service will always
win out. We've got to be able to provide
and surface the right information at the right time
with ease. And then we let the guest drive
the experience. When we're far more emotionally

(00:21):
intelligent than AII might say ever is going to be.
But it's definitely at the moment.
We've got to continue to evolve and innovate and.
Making sure that we find the right people and that they are
the right people. We let them loose.
But then, once we know that they're right, it's.
People don't, they won't leave agood team because they do know
that they're being looked after.It's keen to be clear, it's
unkind to be unclear. Welcome back to Tech on Toast
podcast, powered by Zonal on ourspecial loyalty series.

(00:43):
Today we're getting to somethingfundamental, people and service.
As expectations rise and marginstighten, how do you build teams
that really care, create experiences that stand out, and
run operations that keep both your staff and your guests
coming back? Well, we've got 3 guests.
They're going to help us understand more.
First, we've got Anthony Pender,founder of Yummy Collective and
long time advocate for People First Hospitality.
Then we've got Darren Smith, Head of Operations at Flatiron,

(01:05):
a business known not just for great steak, but a consistently
great guest experience. And finally, we're joined by
Gillian Nicholson, Sales Director at Zonal, a tech
provider, which helps operators Dr. Footfall improve guest
experience and grow customer loyalty.
Settle in, grab a coffee, let's enjoy the show.
Welcome back to Tech and Tours podcast with our partners Zonal.
And today we're talking about people making the experience,
how our staff drive customer loyalty.

(01:26):
Joining me today, we have three lovely guests.
We'll start over here with Darren.
Who are you and what do you do, Darren?
Darren, head of operations at Flatiron state chain, mainly
London, with a few sites just spreading outside.
Yeah, big fans, where are you? Outside London yet?
Or are you? Cambridge leaves Manchester soon
to go Brighton and Bristol. Bristol getting closer.
Good. Thank you.

(01:47):
Lovely to meet you. And I know you, Anthony Pender,
how are you? What do you do and where you
from? Yeah, So Anthony Pender.
Yeah, I'm from a well, founder of Yummy Collection.
How to describe this? Really we're just a mishmash of
venues now. We used to be very pub focused,
but now we're doing oyster carts, seafood restaurants,
still got pubs, cocktail bars and yeah, just getting on with.

(02:07):
Hospitality, really. Yeah.
That's the best place to be. I spent most of my life there.
And Gillian, welcome back. Yeah, Gillian Nicholson, Sales
Director at Zono. And we have a mishmash of
customers all across the hospitality industry.
So yeah, technology solutions and serving the hospitality and
just for over 45 years. So thank you and welcome.
It's #4 for you. Yeah.
It's #4 for me. We're doing great look, so we're

(02:28):
going to start off by talking about how we define great
service today. And I think with YouTube chats,
particularly when you look at what you know, kind of I think
I've been in the industry 2530 years and services kind of
Evergreen the way what what customers spent looked after
they want to be have a great time.
How do you define what does it mean to it means different
things to different people. What does it mean today?
Do you think great service, particularly when you're

(02:49):
thinking about your role and what you guys are doing?
For us, it's about simplicity. We have a term that we use
relaxed rigor. So we put a lot of the process
and focus around everything thatthe guests aren't seeing.
And then from a front end point of view, it's about giving them
the freedom to do it, how they feel natural, how they feel
comfortable. Even the way that we do our
mystery diners and a lot of our auditing is done in a way that

(03:12):
it's not following this really strict, rigid process.
We want it to feel natural. We want it to feel organic and
it's about then just bringing inthe right people and letting
them just do their thing, really.
Yeah, I guess that's a big part of it, right?
Because taking away some of the barriers, you suppose you have
to have that personality that makes up that bit.
So much into the training and building the knowledge set and
making sure that we find the right people and that they are
the right people before we let them loose.

(03:32):
But then once we know that they're right, it's stand back
and and let them do their thing.Love that.
Same for you, Anthony. Yes, I think it's, especially
over the last few years, I thinkwe've seen too much of
hospitality almost just become a, a process of feeding someone.
Yeah. And it's forgotten that it's
ultimately we're in the job of making people happy.

(03:53):
And we've got quite a dire worldout there with bad news every
day. And actually the job and they
come into our venues is just to forget all that for a little
while. And that's our job.
And I think very different spacekind of because I've got pubs,
there's the dwell time, there's the whole reunion of people.
They can just come for a pint, even when times are hard.
So I think there's a real community space in this idea of
just actually bringing people together and our team being

(04:16):
aware that our job isn't just tofeed them, it's to make people
happy and make them leave in a better mood than what they came
into the building in. Yeah.
And that's, I will say it's actually, you know, really easy
to lose a guess, really hard to win a new one.
And I think, yeah. And I think it's kind of built
my career around that understanding how to do that
well. And it's difficult, right.
And I think as you said, it's challenging times, but actually
service will always win out. Yeah, absolutely.

(04:38):
And Gillian, from your side, because frequency is we're
talking about loyalty obviously on this series and frequencies
driven by that, how important ishow much does service play a
part of that? Yeah.
So we've done quite a lot of research in relation to loyalty
and some of our Go Tech reports which are all available on the
Zonal website just confirm that.I mean hospitality is always
about people. But I think 29% of weekly

(04:59):
hospitality customers and 33% ofnon weekly hospitality customers
all say that a friendly knowledgeable member of staff is
a is a key reason for them continuing to returning 100%
that operator of that brand. Yeah, John is now is in the
business. He works at Peter Pilgrims and
really interesting seeing him going on that journey and
actually seeing asking him questions about what's it like,
what's it like out there? Is it different to when we were

(05:20):
there? And I think it's still very much
I think some brands are really building from a people first
culture and you you've talked about that a lot, I suppose
Anthony over over the years and kind of having that people first
approach. What's the one culture shift you
think that operators need to make today or, or what kind of
need to go on a journey for? You know what, I think we
probably did it as well and learnt a lot through that
dreaded burden. It will come up for the next

(05:40):
decade, COVID. I think we have some fantastic
training processes and collateral in place pre COVID
and we built ourselves up to sixsites, got very uniform in our
approach. And I'll be honest, I didn't
enjoy life and the team probablyweren't enjoying it as much as
they should have done. And during COVID, number one,
that the offer we split upon said every venue is going to be

(06:02):
very separate, very individual and cater to its market.
But the same with the team now is right, We've got all these
fantastic training platforms andpodcasts.
Anything else for the guys that are listening to?
But actually let's make sure we've bespoken it to the
individual and let's actually spend more time listening to our
people. I think sometimes we're
training, we've got in the habitof just throwing training at

(06:25):
them. And actually the most important
part of training is it's 5050 and just sit and listen to what
do they want, what do they need and what engages them and
actually play it to their strengths and don't try and
cookie cut everyone into the same place.
Yeah, which is it's remarkably hard to do as well, right,
because you've got, it's an investment, you've got you've
personally got to put. It, it's exhausting and you've

(06:45):
got to get so many things right alongside it.
I mean, I think that's become mynumber one job is sort of my own
presence in the business, relatively small business can
still do that. But also the key people
understanding who there are people who walk into a room and
light that room up, who are they?
Cuz they're the ones who need tobe going into the venues.
They're the ones who need to be managing the teams and just put

(07:06):
all your effort and pour it intothem to make sure that they keep
that light going because they just infect people around them
with positivity and training offense.
It doesn't matter if the attitudes there and if that
happiness is there, then it justshines through.
And I think that's why Flat IronPizza built rooms when we talk
about like I won't call you casual dining, but that kind of
area, the market, those two brands for me are doing it,
whereas a lot of others are suffering at the moment and you

(07:28):
can see them sort of declining, but there is a new wave coming
through. I agree.
And as much as it will be a deliberate approach, I'm sure.
What do you think? What is it in the culture or in
the way that you build the teamsonly you talked a little bit
about there about removing some of the barriers.
What is it that sets you apart from these other competitors?
We label our service old friend and it's principal.

(07:49):
It's anyone who walks in the door.
We want them to feel like they've been here before or we
treat them as if as if they're coming to a friend's house or a
family member's house. And it's we don't push the hard
cell. We don't.
We let the guest drive the journey, drive the experience.
We really teach our teams how toread a guest.
Do they want us to come and sit next to them and engage them?
Do they want us to stand off andgive them some space?

(08:10):
And then we let the guest drive the experience through a we
don't, you don't really focus onspend per head or any of these
things, which you can have a great experience and absolutely
kill it with a high pressurized sales incentive or something
that you've done that just doesn't fit the rest of your
brand. And this is where we put our
intention and I probably spend more time telling people not to

(08:31):
be going to rigorous on the spent behind incentives or on
any of the site level stuff thatthey're doing rather than the
other way around, which is probably how some of the other
casual dining businesses are trying to drive drive revenue.
And drive so we're. Trying to do it in in reverse,
it's have you got enough people on, don't be pushing too hard,
don't be, don't be chasing for this.
And that's ultimately what's going to grow the business or

(08:52):
make people want to return. Value is so important for us and
people not having that moment where they think they've over
ordered or overspent or been pushed into something they
didn't really want, one is absolute key for us.
Absolute key. And Julian, do you see it when
you're out and about, I suppose just as a human, not as a zonal
person, but when you're out and about, do you feel that as well
that actually you've seen these brands that I think you

(09:14):
mentioned Pizza Express actuallyin the last episode, but talking
about these new brands that are kind of, and when I say new, I
know you've been around how longFlatham. 2012 from when we first
started. OK.
So, yeah, so but but these brands are coming around and
they they do have that differentfeel that actually feel like the
shackles are off a little bit. Do you experience that as a as a
customer? Yeah, I think you do.
And I think it's just all about picking up in those
sensitivities, isn't it? I mean, humans, we kind of spoke

(09:36):
about it, but haven't we? We're creatures of habit.
We want to, we want to know whenwe go for like a place we're
definitely going to return. And I guess it's understanding
what elements hit those buttons for you.
And obviously a big part of thatis the teams that are out on the
floor picking up to that being aintensive.
And yeah, I mean, I've got youngkids, so servicing families
quickly and getting us in and out without any dramas or

(09:58):
smashed glasses is always key. And I think, yeah, you can.
You can certainly feel that whenyou you going to the right place
and somewhere that you definitely want to go back to
because they they're attentive to you and your needs.
It's true. And and you talk a lot of that
comes down to training and you mentioned training before about
you were kind of putting it out there, but it wasn't really
sticking I suppose or it or or they would do it did it turns
like a tick box exercise I suppose.

(10:20):
I think it's really nicely put, actually sticking exactly that.
It's it just became a process tick box, but it didn't stick.
And you're trying to do all these steps of service when
ultimately what you want someoneto do is be nice to someone.
I've turned up here for a podcast today.
The first thing you guys are known has offered me a coffee.
That's hospitality and it's trueform.
You walk into a room and you're welcome into that room and

(10:42):
you're made to feel like we wantyou to stay in that room.
And certain people can just do that naturally.
Some people can do half of that and they have to see other
people do it to understand it. And you also have to give
empowerment and trust because atthe end of the day, we want
people to make make clear decisions.
So we have a process behind it, but if we get something wrong,

(11:03):
correct it and don't just correct it.
Go over the top to correct it. If somebody needs something, go
and get it for them. If there's a dietary
requirement, let's make it work for them.
And to be honest, someone came into favour and they're all
sitting there having lovely fishand there's a kid who doesn't
like fish at all and doesn't like any of our dishes and they
want a McDonald's. Go out and get the McDonald's
for that kid. Let them put it on a nice plate.

(11:24):
Please just look after those people because actually they're
the returning guests and they will always remember that.
And I just just make them happy.That's our job.
And if you do that and they walkout happy, they're coming back
and they're telling people in its most simplest form, but you
can only do that if the people serving are happy and entrusted
to do that. Yeah.
And I think it's, and we obviously we're talking about
loyalty, we've talked about the technology side of it in the

(11:46):
last episode, but this is nice now because we're actually
talking about the people side ofit and actually driving loyalty.
And our very first guest in the first episode said loyalty
doesn't exist. The word it's a usefulness.
He said, how useful are you to your customer?
And I think how hard is it then to put your people in that
position where they've become, you know, like you've mentioned
community, particularly in what you do actually around how
useful you become as part of thecommunity.

(12:08):
It's really hard. So we have to, it's front foot
forward. We've really got to sort of
encourage them by being role models ourselves.
So whenever we're in the venues,we've got to be engaging the
guests. And it doesn't matter who you
are, there's a clear rule that in those key service times,
there's no laptops out. And if you need to be on your
laptop, you leave the venue. And I think at that same point,
that's something probably six months ago, we started to get

(12:29):
wrong. I don't have an office.
I still work in venues every day.
I avoid the idea of an office, but it means I've got my laptop
out. Actually.
Then I'm a distraction to the team.
So just get up for half an hour,have a chat, and then if you
need to walk out the building and make some phone calls, do
it. But when you're in that
building, be the role model and if we look at everybody sort of
knows the summer's town coffee house, everyone's popped in and
out there from the industry. Two years there.

(12:51):
Exactly. And there's, I've always sort of
been working in the corner, but it's always I've made sure that
I've had time for people and theteams see that.
And I've, I'm in this blessed position where I've got this
amazing team across all the venues because they all act in
the same way now. They'll always find time for the
guests and you get a new person and they quickly become part of
that culture and it moves on. And yes, we have to do some

(13:12):
boring compliance training. That is so important that I've
had a massive hire. I know it is.
We still have help heart perpetrations thinking about
that or naked candles. But we have to do that.
But then the rest of the time isfocused on actually just being
on the floor with them and shadow training.
And sure, we'll come on to it later, but the stories as well,
people, the team remember narratives, they remember

(13:33):
stories, they remember culture. They don't remember an online
course. They kind of take some through a
process. So give them a narrative, give
them a reason as well. If I ask you to do something as
part of our business, why not just do it?
It's why do it. And we've always got a
narrative. We've been around next year's,
our 20th year running venues, soit's a long time.
Yes, long time, yeah. Yeah, the grey hair.

(13:54):
You're still smiling though. It's good.
Not always, not always. But yeah, no, it's 20 years and
we've got a lot of back stories and use those stories as
examples because actually peopleremember those stories.
I'm using stories going back 2011, 2012 still that still
resonate today because the the principles are saying be nice.
I keep on saying it, it's be nice.
Yeah, and I think I, I had MariaMcCann from Black OP was on the

(14:15):
other podcast I do last week andthen we were talking and we were
both at Hard Rock Cafe together and we the minute we mentioned
certain things to each other, wejust smiled.
And it's because you have those met those built in memories or
that muscle memory of doing stuff that's very cool that
people all engage with. And I think it's the same.
And Darren, how do you make thateffective in training, I
suppose. How do you, because whilst you
think removes from the barriers and you let people kind of be

(14:36):
themselves, you still have to give them some kind of, you
still have to do the boring stuff, don't you?
And then kind of the compliance.Yeah.
I mean, we make sure, I think when we, if I go back, sort of
pre COVID even we were focusing too much on the compliance.
We were overloading them on day one with all of that really,
really boring stuff and destroying that for the
compliance people. It's really, really important.
But we were overloading them on day one with all of that stuff

(14:59):
and sort of killing the vibe before they actually get to it.
So we now stagger that through almost like the first four
weeks. So actually where we're spending
the time with them is on the funstuff.
You try all the food, you drink all the wine, you try all the
beers, you, you literally step out onto that floor and attended
for the first time. And you know how to talk about
the beef, how to talk about the products.
And you, you do that with confidence.
And that's when the the hospitality and stuff shines

(15:20):
through. But in terms of the training,
we've really had to adjust how we train.
People don't want to learn how Idid when I was away.
So there is no 40 page manual dothis and then you then you'll be
ready for the next level. I know it's, it's more bite
size, it's TikTok style. And yeah, and this is an area
we're going to have to adapt as,as we keep moving through
generations. But COVID for us was a real
bookmark in moving from the millennial workforce to a Gen.

(15:42):
Z workforce. And immediately like, oh this
isn't work. We've got, we've got to start
and. So we really had to bring in a
cycle of listening into the business and hear what they had
to say, how they wanted to learnand adapt and eliminate some of
these buzzwords and other stuff that we'd used before because
they just didn't know. They'd not been to the pub
before. They'd not had a yeah, my 80s
jokes weren't landing. Anymore.
Yeah. No, no, no.

(16:03):
It's all about safe spaces now and how we speak to people and
I've had to rein in a lot of my banter that I definitely could
have got away with 510 years agois dad and dad and banter.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
But you have your private moments with the right people
anyway. But you've.
Got to behave very. Very differently now and
actually it's for the best and some of the longest serving
managers changing their mindset of Oh well, when I was their

(16:26):
age, it was this. It was like, but why would you
wish this on them? Like why would you?
Why do you want to do 60? Hours a week?
Yeah. Why?
Would we and trying to shift that mindset definitely helped
us, I think then move towards accepting and and understanding
who Gen. Z were and how they were going
to behave and how we needed to adapt.
Really. Yeah.
And I think learning. From them is part of life right
like everything you do as you grow up through school and

(16:47):
university or whatever you do injobs that actually you do take
the best things from people around you even if they're
younger even if they have different lived experiences it's
just great to kind of learn and Gillian, I'm going to put you
back in the tech seat again sorry but obviously there's a
fear amongst the industry I think still actually and rightly
so properly that tech will replace the human touch,
particularly the advent of AI coming and all of all of the

(17:08):
kind of ways that can go but done right it can do the
opposite right So if it is really kind of used in a way
that's seamless I suppose for the teams and the customers how
are you seeing that kind of empowered what we're talking
about here to kind of enable thegirls and boys on the floor to
do their jobs properly well I think.
You're touching the word seamless.
And I think that is it. It's, it's, it's we.

(17:29):
We've got to be able to provide and surface the right
information at the right time with ease for the servers, the
staff on the floor, the people behind the bars to make their
life easier. And they can focus on serving
your customers in the right way and engaging the right way with
them. So it's about us being behind
the scenes. I kind of spoke about it.
I think in one of the other sessions we did a kind of brand

(17:49):
campaign at Zonal and it was allabout we're here for you.
And we had had lots of our exec members and and team colleagues
painted in and blending behind and that that's what technology
should be. Did you be?
Physically painted, they were Physically.
Painted you can find on YouTube I'm sure yeah I'm sure they will
not be happy that I'm advertising that but but that's
what it's about we shouldn't be standing out front and foremost
we should blend in and again we've been in the industry very

(18:11):
long time we're actually really fortunate and I think in
hospitality in general people join and stay because if people
business it's fun and actually the technology because we've
been around so long and what we do we do we believe we do it
very actually when people move around they're very familiar
with their systems and that makes it a lot easier as well
but yeah seamless we should blend in we should give give the

(18:31):
staff the right information easily and it allows them to
focus on the guests well and also.
With Gen. Z's different approach to life
generally and what they accept, what they don't accept.
Same with tech, right? Because they've grown up with
the iPhone. They don't know the phone.
I was telling my kids about, youguys know the phone you just had
to put your finger in and turn it and turn the dial.
Yeah. And I was explaining that and
they were just literally like, what are you talking?

(18:53):
So their expectation of being able to find information
quickly, easily and relevant to them I think is up here.
And I think, I do think the industry's got a journey to go
on there to to kind of keep up because they will challenge you
on that is that must be forefront of product, I suppose
when you're looking into building that kind of stuff.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's all good challenges,
isn't it, right. We've got to continue to evolve

(19:13):
and innovate and prove where we are.
And then and yeah, that's all part of the the journey and our
product and R&D teams it's own and when.
You guys put tech in then God forbid when you put it in
because I know it's always fun. How do you introduce it that
actually supports and not adds pressure?
Because I think it's quite interesting because you've both
got, how many sites have you gotin 1818?

(19:33):
So it's quite interesting you'vegot a gap like 15 site gap here
and but very different businesses you're putting tech
into. Do you put it across?
Do you look at it as individual sites or do you put it across
the group so. Back end very much across, but
then things like booking systems, we have to look at
what's the right platform for that start of a, a restaurant
booking system is very differentto a pub and venue booking

(19:56):
system actually. So we do have to mix things up.
It adds a level of complication,but it's the right thing to do.
But it's really interesting because you say about like a
sort of millennials, Gen. Z technology, there is a bit
where we're having to teach themmore about technology than you'd
expect. A couple of weeks ago, one of
our guys really keen on cocktails.
I said go on, then go and write the menu for that venue.

(20:17):
That's fine. And he wrote it on ChatGPT.
And ChatGPT chucked this out. But obviously Chat UBT doesn't
have taste buds and it's for someone who's learnt over years
the hardware because it's chefs,mixologists, whatever you want
to call them. It's not an overnight acquired
skill. It takes time and actually
understanding balances and flavours.

(20:39):
It's an art and it really is an art.
And there are the guys who are up here who can, yeah, yeah,
within a nymph, tell them it doesn't have a palette.
I suppose. Yeah, yeah.
And. You know, you have to say, look,
it's great that you've gone and done this, but you can't just
present that you need to test it.
You're going to have to water these recipes.
You can get inspiration, but it's not the final product And
teaching guys that you know whattechnology isn't the total

(20:59):
answer. It's it's part of the journey
towards the answer and it's getting that balance right and
sort of not demotivating people when they use it or try to be
innovative. Yeah, it's not a.
Shortcut, I think that sometimespeople see particularly AI, I
think is seen as a shortcut to asolution and I think you're
obviously right that actually all of those things we talked
about at the start of the years of experience you've got have to

(21:21):
be implemented next to it. Otherwise it I mean very quickly
it'll become very yeah and one. Dimensional yeah.
Guest responses on AI. Come on, You can tell straight
away. Yeah.
And I personally have, I, I willtype responses myself.
I reply to emails myself becauseI think there's two people
you're talking to when you're replying to a guest you're
talking to. Well, three actually.
You're talking to the guests themselves, you're talking to

(21:43):
other potential guests and you're talking to your team at
the same time with that response.
So AI is just going to Chuck outa response that tries to placate
the answer to what's been put towards them on that review when
we're far more emotionally intelligent than AII won't say
ever's gonna be, But it's definitely at the moment, yeah.
Not right. Now it's on its way, apparently,
so I'm told. And what about you?

(22:03):
What about when you're implementing tech in flat iron?
Because it's when you get to a size of 18, obviously it becomes
because you're obviously buying at group level and rolling out
becomes a challenge because obviously not everyone's the
same. As Anthony says, everyone's got
different ideas of what tech should do.
I mean, we've made. Mistakes along the way and we
still have some systems that we probably should have bend off 10
or 12 sites ago, right, But withyour name them or no, no, no,

(22:27):
no, but they're on the block. I think we've, we've made some
mistakes with some tech rolloutsthat we've done and now we have
a forum where anything that we want to bring in, whether it
just feels like we want to do itfrom a business decision or
we've heard it in our 360 feedbacks or surveys that we do,
we always think of what we're going to do.
Then we bring it to the forum. Each site has one representative

(22:48):
there and we let them play around with whatever it is.
And one example we have at the minute, we're looking to upgrade
our internal comms platform and the system that we have isn't
really fit for purpose. We found one that we like, but
before we press go, we get the demo platform and bring the
forum together and let them playaround with it and, and see what
they think. Because if they're not going to
use it, why are we going to spend all that money on on
delivering it? But there's some areas where we

(23:11):
are protective of tech and around service.
We didn't jump on the bandwagon with QR codes for payments and
lots of shortcuts. Because for me, who we are and
how we serve people and all of these things that make for me
flat iron magic, it's in the person it's in.
It's in how we deliver that service.
And I've got to protect it as best we can.
And I'd rather say, put more people on to make sure that

(23:32):
we're doing the payments quick rather than creating a shortcut,
which means we're not catching the end of that experience in
time. Might prove me wrong.
And maybe one day we'll bring a QR code.
But right now, while this is howwe can operate, I'm going to
fight for it. I love that.
I think that. Kind of echoes a lot of what
I've been saying over a few of them, isn't it in relation to
it, I guess the loyalty, knowingwhat your brand stands for, what
matters to you and obviously thetechnological changes.

(23:56):
Absolutely it's it's a it's a massive change for everybody.
So taking everyone on that journey with you is very
important to get their buy in and make sure that those kind of
technology roll outs, which are always fun and they will they
will maybe have a few bumps along the way.
But you've got that buy in and you know, you know, why
everybody's doing it, why everybody's behind it and and
yeah, hopefully get through it and have a big party at the end.

(24:18):
It's yeah, so do you. Offer that at every customer.
No, I'm not going. To commit to that, but yeah, I
mean. And with that, obviously, the
staff churn quite a lot in our industry, which I don't know, I
feel like that's an Evergreen problem as well.
It's always been a churn's always been an issue in the
industry. Maybe it's obviously been harder
recently, I think because the cost of staff is more than ever
what's really working when it comes to, I suppose, retaining

(24:40):
people in the business. I'll start with you, Darren.
So in terms of keeping those personalities and these people
you're invested in, I think there.
Isn't A1 size fits all approach.We're very lucky that we're in a
business that's growing but not at rapid, rapid pace.
So 3 or 4 sites a year. So the people that want to
progress and see opportunity through growth, they see it
happening at a pace that's comfortable with.
And we're not overly stretching people.

(25:02):
But also, I'm a big believer that some of the best people you
have only do 20 hours a week. Not everybody needs to be on
that full throttle journey to the top and creating space and
flexibility for those people that might only be here for a, a
indeterminate amount of time, give them the flexibility, give
them the the opportunity to justcome in, have fun, earn some
cash or whatever it is that their reasons are and celebrate

(25:22):
them and look and sort of support them when they when they
leave and people look at it, people go, they come back, they
have acting jobs, they come back.
But some of our best people do 25 hours a week and making sure
that they have the flexibility so that they can do their side
hustle, they can do whatever it is that's interesting them, but
might not be their their full time thing.
And we can support that as best we can.

(25:43):
It's been working really, reallywell for us and I think that.
Gig economy is, you know, the company's, the company, the
industry sat on that for years, right?
Those people there, 10 hour rockstars, we used to call them a
Hard Rock could come in and do that bit for you.
But without them, you're screwed, right?
Is it the same for you? So you, Anthony, because you've
got, you've got, I suppose you've got smaller teams, but
still having to motivate them, keep them there and we have.
Fantastic core team, very littlechange over the last five years

(26:07):
actually. Great.
Yeah, there'll always be a slow churn to it.
And I think that should be celebrated as well with those
retention is around growing the business.
But as we grow as well, we're, I'm really proud to say that I'm
in a fortunate position. I I own the business so I'm able
to do this. But we, I give shares to Vigo
and I've got five of my team nowshareholders in their venues.

(26:30):
It's amazing. And I think that's really
important that they share your success.
And you know what, I'm still quite young.
So 20 years time when I retire, they can take on the mentor,
they sell and they sell out as well.
It's up to them with the kind oflike not, not entry level
because actually every job is very skilled job in hospitality.
I mean, that's really important to get across a churn.

(26:51):
It's not everyone tries to get rid of this churn.
Actually, it's not a problem. You know, if someone's going to
university and you're going to get 3 great years out, they're
going to leave. Just.
Celebrate that, get the best outof them, teach them something
because a lot of my friends outside of hospitality, I quite
often say they can tell when they get graduates and things
going for jobs now in office andsales roles.
They can tell the ones who have worked in hospitality and

(27:13):
they're at another level. So if we're creating this
amazing workforce for other people, let's let's just crack
on. As long as it's doing our
business good and there's carry on training.
And as you say, people come and go back.
I've got people now who are managers earning phenomenal
money who were never going to stay in hospitality.
But here they are 15 years later.
Well, I think I. Mean, I don't know about you
guys, but I'm one of those people I didn't join to stay so

(27:35):
no, but it's it's it's almost addictive in a positive way.
I think he is and I think because you have leaders like
you guys, right, who are above you and hopefully me when I was
managing people that actually people are loyal to you a lot of
the time, as well as the business.
They they kind of have my off day.
But yeah, but I'm but you know, but, but you know, I'm sure you
don't want to take the credit, but I'm pretty sure that a lot

(27:57):
of people work for you and, you know, and rather than the brand
name, sometimes it's it's it becomes really common in the
industry. I think that people become you
learn a lot more about people ina hostile environment than you
would in an office. I think it's really.
Important to say we work for each other.
It's fight 2 for now for my guysagain, that senior team and they
do it for me. So when things go on in our
lives, we've got busy lives. We do do long hours, not as long

(28:20):
as they used to be, but we support each other.
So we've had guys who've had to have a month off and do
something, but we've got their backs.
But at the same time I know they've got my back.
It's that simple really. We're in the trenches together
and especially we talk about theeconomy and the negative news
out there. If we're entrenched into this as
one team together, we are going to look after each other and
people don't. They won't leave a good team
because they do know that they're being looked after and

(28:42):
that goes both ways. I.
Mean and you're doing incentivesthrough shares and I'm sure
other things yeah, yeah I would say for you Dan, what do you how
do you incentive do you have physical incentives I suppose
yeah we do we. Through one of our surveys, we
were asking people what they really wanted and everybody
obviously wanted something completely different.
And some sites have got little gym things going on and we'll

(29:02):
trade coffee for steak with our locals and stuff.
We wanted to just formalize it alittle bit.
So we introduced we used an app called Thanks Ban and we
introduced almost like your GMs,head chefs and managers high
performance and KPIs creates a large bonus and we wanted to
bring that in for the team. So everybody in the whole
building is contributing to the same thing.
So as as guest metrics are improving or being sustained,

(29:24):
the manager gets a pot of money to then distribute.
And we have these little beef cheques.
So it's something physical, but they deposit cash basically into
people's account they can use topay for Netflix shopping.
Very cool. Uber E, whatever.
And it's actually created a bit of momentum in some areas.
And it means that because it's landing, people aren't
forgetting to do something. Like sometimes you can be so

(29:46):
busy, you can get to say thank you or you have that next time
they're in, I'm going to remember to to do something for
that person. You just don't Where now they
have this physical thing and if they don't spend it, they'll
lose it. So they're more inclined to
actually do things a lot more regularly and make sure that
we're we're actually having these moments.
But they can make the moments individual to that person and
they can do with it something that means something to them.

(30:07):
Yeah, Yeah. I.
Mean, yeah, One of the days of the shared pot on the counter, I
suppose. I don't know, Yeah.
Not everybody wants a bottle of Prosecco.
Or no, but it's very true, right?
Nights out as again back in the day, we're very much and
whatever and I think now that's not the case, right.
You gotta be considerate what everybody wants to do.
And I think that that's a a positive change Jane.
How can tech play a part in that, in helping incentivize?

(30:31):
Yeah, I think there's a. Few different ways, obviously we
we had Dan Brookman, our CEO of Airship and toggle and there's
certainly some elements within the airship offering that we
have got like airship teams, which is kind of empowering the
staff, taking the staff on the journey, giving them discounts
and incentivizing them, bringing, bringing them together
and driving that team connection.
But then we also work heavily through kind of some of our
partner network, whether that bethe likes the like tip Jar and

(30:52):
grateful. Obviously tipping's a big thing.
And I think we kind of, we, we spoke to Tom at Bills as well,
didn't he, in relation, I guess when you get to the busy
Christmas period and I guess howmuch that the staff you can then
benefit from that, which is obviously I think a big thing
doesn't, it's not money's not the answer for everyone, is it?
I suppose, because everyone's got different motives driven by
different ways. But I think there's certainly a
lot of element that you can you can satisfy some of the staff.

(31:15):
I just think because of tech as well, you're, we are a bit more
enabled than we were 1015 years ago to be able to kind of reward
people in that way that doesn't become too clunky.
I used to make a pork. I used to have this thing called
the Stairway to Heaven in Hard Rock Cafe where I had my office
was upstairs. This is terrible by the way.
I'm telling people this, but on the way down the stairs, I used
to put on the team's names. So if you're top of the stairs,
you used to get some bottom of the stairs.

(31:36):
It wasn't so good. So yeah, that probably that
probably wasn't. It's a bit like your banter
probably should have stayed in the basket.
Yeah, but. But ever that it used to be fun,
actually, everyone joined in theway that it was meant to be.
Saying out loud sounds worse. Anyway, we'll move on.
You guys have talked about attitude a lot actually.
Or, you know, all the, the purveyance of how teams should

(31:59):
feel like in front of customers being able to be themselves.
How the hell do you kind of findthe right people to do that?
Cuz I'm sure there's lots of recruitment people maybe
listening who kind of say we know how to do it, but what's
your approach to start with you to kind of find the right
personality? Or isn't there a Yeah, no.
Look, it's really important #1 is good people.

(32:20):
It is getting easier to recruit in a sad way because of the
amount of job losses out there. There's a lot of people trying
to transfer into hospitality. So we're for the first time ever
since must be like 2010, we're actually getting people walk in
with a printed CV and put it on the bar again.
Now that was something that we did when we were young.
Now it's useful. It's indeed.

(32:41):
So that shows people are really having to be quite ingenious to
kind of get a job. But good people are still
getting snapped up quickly. So number one, it's the energy
and the recruitment. And again, it's as much them
interviewing us as we interviewing them.
But it's that initial just sparkof engagement, picking up the
phone, not just using the automated AI answering on any

(33:04):
recruitment platform. It's actually like when maybe a
person comes in, if it's good, pick up the phone now speak to
them, engage them. If they don't engage, you don't
go back to them, please. You've got to fill the spark.
And there's a bit of a rule in our business where there's a
ruder version of how we say it, but the which very much doesn't
go in the basket. We still say it, but it's

(33:25):
basically if you can't, if you don't feel like, I'm not saying
you're going to do this, but if you don't feel like you can have
a beer with someone at the end of the night in your team, you
shouldn't have them in your team.
And that goes right away throughmy business from senior right
down to the pot wash. If you've got a team in front of
you and I just don't want to spend another minute with them,
I'm not going for a beer after work with them.
And that might not be an alcoholic beer, whatever it is,
but you've got to feel like you want them in your life.

(33:47):
Don't have them. You spend too much time I.
Think you and I don't know aboutyou guys, but in my career I've
definitely felt periods when I've been in charge of people
when I felt like why are he or she still here?
Why am I allowing this to happen?
And, and, and sometimes just because you're just head down in
the, you know, in the shift, whatever getting on.
But those people exist and we allow them to exist.
It's really huge. I've got a.

(34:07):
Great guy, Paul Pavley and many of you.
I know Paul, yeah, he works, we say, a few days a week in the
business. It feels like he's in it all the
time. Such a joy for me.
But he's got his saying in the meeting.
So. Well, we've discussed this
person three times. Are we sacking them or are we
promoting them? Yeah.
And it's true. It's if these same people come
up in the conversation, why are they coming up?

(34:28):
Are they part of the team? Are they in the wrong place?
They might be in the wrong venueactually.
It's just fitting that culture and trying to find natural fits.
So for me, finding those people is about natural, just natural
human interaction. And then when they come on
board, the induction is so important.
We, we narrate stories. I do the same with guests.
I think we as human beings, we remember stories.

(34:49):
So our first day, kind of like yourself, we're now doing oyster
master classes. It's not just about learning how
to Shuck an oyster, it's about actually it's the story of why
we do oysters and everything else.
And you're doing something with your hands whilst you're talking
and it's really interesting. People really absorb that
information and they love the story.
And if you can see them get passionate about that story, you

(35:09):
know they're for us. If they're going for me, it's a
bit annoying, probably not for us.
So you can make that decision inthe first couple of weeks
really. And it's not that they're bad
people, it's just they might notbe the right thing for.
You they could walk into. Flat and it would be absolutely
amazing because they love beef and they ate fish.
Who knows? I'm definitely on the beef train
but same for you cuz is there a magic?
Is there specifics you look for in a character or was it too

(35:32):
hard to get that detailed? I mean, sort of build on what
you said, it's that sort of spark, that energy, that
curiosity that you look for whensomebody walks in the door.
I remember in years gone by, if I was presented with some great
personality, no experience and someone had done it for 10
years, I'd probably lean towardsthe 10 years because I didn't
have the resources, the time or any support to get this person

(35:54):
to that level. It's like you can carry tray.
You can't. Sorry, you've got the job and
it's a complete flip of that now.
It's like I don't actually want the 10 years in the game.
Who's going to tell me how it should be done?
It's like I want the hairdresserwho's never worked with service
charge before and they're like, I'm going to make some real cash
and actually have some fun. I know they've got the chat and
all we've got to do is just invest a few weeks into them and
build on the foundations of whatthey've already got.

(36:15):
That's actually so much more funand they bring so much more
energy to the operation and to service and to to what we offer
then. Yeah, the maybe the people who
who probably shouldn't be doing it anymore, you know, or should
maybe moved on. I'll be.
I do. Think you reach a point in GM
life, particularly where you're just like, I'm in the office
more than on the floor now I need to go over because it's,

(36:35):
yeah, it's over. It's over.
Yeah, don't enjoy cooking, don'tcook because it's one job, but
it's so. True that, but they hang around,
yeah. And you're like, you hate
cooking therefore don't please just don't stop.
Don't do it anymore. Stop because you're killing
yourself and what you're turningout is an amazing and you need
to love it and sometimes you need to go away for six months
and come back, even if. It's a new job, right?

(36:56):
To go and try and try and yeah, yeah.
Absolutely I. Think it's that's a real thing
in the industry. I think that people don't really
see you haven't worked in it, that actually there's a lot of
people in there who are like working hard to just go through
the daily motions just because that that's what they know they
wanted, that there's a fear, isn't there about change or
whatever. I think, I think it's a, it's
quite a sad thing actually, because you think people have

(37:16):
invested a lot of time into it, but there comes a time where it
is time to move. Jim, you, you work with a lot of
these people or you interact with a lot of these people.
What's your, what's your impression, I suppose of that
energy spark? Do you get that through the I
suppose the people you work with?
I know you're working probably with some of the central teams
rather than the front of house teams.
Yeah, I think. I think you do.
So for me actually just as an individual, obviously people is

(37:39):
one of the reasons that I, I'm in sales, I enjoy engaging with
customers. I understand, like to understand
what's the issues, what, what's the problems that you're trying
to solve. Obviously it relates to the tech
and how can zonal help overcome those barriers.
But it is ultimately about listening to customers.
What are people's issues and challenges and, and how do we
help to overcome them. But yeah, I mean, working within

(37:59):
hospitality, it just, it varies so much.
There's just so many different shapes, sizes, operators, brands
that we are dealing with. And, and, and obviously from a
zonal perspective, we're very fortunate that we've got such a
large customer base that we engage with so many different,
yeah, shapes and sizes of businesses and, and learn from
them. And I think part of our value

(38:20):
add is that we've been in the industry so long and that our
product has continued to grow and evolve.
That the breadth and depth that we now have from all of these
different kind of customers thatwe service really hopefully add
value back to, to customers where, where they think, oh
gosh, I didn't know that I even needed that.
But our whole ecosystem, yeah, you can't.
Because we've been there for SO.Long and servicing hospitality

(38:41):
and and the best way possible Noyou may.
I can't help but think that you guys are gathering in lots of
it's not just data, but information from people like
this. And I suppose looking forward,
we have to do our future questions.
It's the end of a podcast. What does it look like in terms
of service or, or, or I suppose what an experience will look
like, I suppose for for people in in the industry.
Where do you think we're going, Darren?
Do you think it's going to be? Is the flat iron pizza pilgrims

(39:03):
model? Is that something that's going
to be this simple? I suppose it's almost in
simplicity, isn't it? Both in the way you treat your
people and the way sounds terrible.
You treat them simply, but you know what I mean?
In that easy fashion to access. Yeah, I think there's.
It's a space for everybody. I think as long as you have
identified your niche, you're focusing on the right things,
the quality people, whatever it is, there's QSR business

(39:26):
thriving, there's full service casual dining thriving, there's
grab and go thriving. But I think the ones that are
the ones that are focusing on quality, they're probably
listening to their people and listening to what their
customers and guests are saying and actually acting on that, but
also being true to who you are and got got you here.
If you can't be everything to all people.

(39:47):
And a lot of brands have tried to be that we're going to have
multiple different offers, multiple different things.
And I don't think that's that's achievable in the same way it
was considering the cost pressures that we have and
eliminate eliminating waste and keeping keeping an eye on
things. So I think there'll probably be
more brands that are focusing like flat iron on doing one
thing. Do it really, really well, find

(40:07):
your little niche and and really, really strive to keep a
hold of it. But it's, but it's sort of
grounded in people, your culture, your values.
And and sticking true to what they are and not letting the
mask slip. Really, you've just got to hold
yourself accountable. No, I love that.
Same, same. If you answer yours is
different, I suppose because youyou've got different businesses
within your group. Does it, do you look down the

(40:30):
road and think I'm going to moveinto look for like one of those
models where we do something very singular and we point in
One Direction? Quick answer, no because I
don't. I just enjoy new things and new
toys far too much. And probably shouldn't, but
really enjoy that kind of creating something new every
time. And we're looking at a few
projects at the moment. And I thought when we built

(40:52):
Faber, we're going to do a few favours.
And then you kind of get into itand go, well, we've gone too
deep down this rabbit hole of foraging and sustainability and
we've got 20 odd difference coastal suppliers bringing
shellfish, seaweed fishing. We can't build that to a
replical place. But I'm fiercely proud of that
because what I will do and what sits behind our business all the

(41:15):
time is authenticity. So when we do a seafood
restaurant and it's British and it's sustainable, it's authentic
and we do the, and the enjoyablepart is we all do the research
together team as well. And we do, I mean, we, we don't
have tuna on our menu because yes, it's back in British
waters, but it's only 3% of the population back in the waters.
So made a decision not to do it now.

(41:36):
I think I was messaging my guys at 11:00 at night about this and
Matt, one of my partners and it just, we can shut up now.
We're locking the, the restaurant up and going home
enough. But that's what we do.
We, we get really use, use the word curious.
It's that it's fanatical, curious, passionate.
That's what we ask for and that's what our business will
be. Whatever project we go into, we

(41:58):
have to be that which I hope then authenticity comes through
and that's where our success comes from.
Authenticity. Love that.
Angelia. Just touching on some values of
some of our company values is kind of like innovation,
passionate, customer obsessed. And I think talking about the
singular nature, obviously we are a large technology company.
We have a look, we've acquired alot of companies over the ways

(42:18):
and years. But I think talking about
creating that unique customer experience and making sure that
we can work as a partnership with our customers, but also
allow them to create that uniquejourney, whether that is via the
landscape of partners or different products.
We spoke about the tech stack. Is it all in one place?
Well, no, it very rarely is. But would we love it to be?

(42:40):
Yes. But I think for us, it's about
obviously, yeah, allowing that, allowing that experience that
that you're needing to create for your customers and that as a
technology partner, we're there in the background to try and
help support. Lovely.
And and one final question to you, what's the best, I'd love
to know the best piece of adviceyou've had actually about around
people management or managing your people.

(43:02):
Sorry Darren, be I. Mean it's just about, for me,
it's about being straight up. I remember in my early career
like pussyfooting around sort ofproblems and hoping that they
would go away and stuff and Max management, weirdly they don't
do that. They don't.
They get worse and. Sometimes when you are a
manager, you're not working directly with people and you
don't always see it. And when your team are telling

(43:23):
you that there's a problem. And then I remember my OPS
manager saying to me, like, justhave the conversation.
Just be clear, be kind, but be clear on, on, on what, what the
problem is. I had it and I was like, Oh my
God, I've been doing it wrong for so many years.
And it actually created positivechange.
And it, it felt like a, a shift for me as AGM at that point.

(43:43):
And I've never really looked back.
It's if something feels like it needs to be said, be intentional
about how I'm going to say it, but I'm going to say it.
I'm not going to sit on it or orlet it fester or let it or let
it sit. I might come to you and say I've
got some feedback. How would you like to receive
it? What's what?
What's the way that you want me to say this to you?
But I'm going to, I'm going to say it because he always leads

(44:04):
for me to positive change or a positive conversation.
He might not always feel it in the moment, but generally
afterwards it's. People are always thankful that
you've been honest feedback as a.
Gift. Yeah.
So, so actually, I guess not feedback, but exactly those
points are you giving him? Feedback.
No, no, no, no. How would you like it?
Exactly what you said I. Completely echo.

(44:24):
I think it wasn't feedback that I've been given to you as a
manager, but I think that's one of I love the Brennie Brown book
Dare to Lead. And that is one of her quotes,
isn't it? It's kind, it's kind to be
clear, it's unkind to be unclear.
And I think we spoke a lot aboutthat through all these podcasts.
It's the simplicity, it's it's communicating with the teams,
what are our goals, what we running towards, whether that's

(44:46):
comms, whether that's leaning into an awkward conversation,
just so important. So yeah, absolutely.
Just that's correct. And, and I actually think as
leaders, it's really difficult to do because you you are
wearing 25 hats, you're in 45 hats, but you're wearing a lot
of hats, aren't you? Sometimes to focus in on that
one thing that needs to be said,you kick it.
Some people, maybe me, will kickit down the road a little bit,

(45:08):
you know, before you actually get there.
And then you're right. Once you get to do it, you're
just like, what the hell was I waiting for?
Yeah. Yeah.
And the other person wants to know.
They desperately want to know. We just haven't got to it yet.
What do you think? What's the best piece of advice
you can get? I totally.
Agree with it. Was that your best?
Piece of advice I do really. Agree with that actually,
because I think, you know, you've all got to move forward
at a pace and you've got to makethose decisions and have those
conversations and a lot of people don't do that actually,

(45:28):
and I wish more did. For me, it was definitely kind
of became prevalent around COVID.
But when I had children was a number of sort of senior peers,
very good industry at sharing information between business
owners and senior people from other companies were very
blessed. There was look after yourself
1st and I kind of didn't and then I had kids.

(45:49):
I was like, actually, I want to be at home for a bath time.
I want to do this. And to be honest, I didn't
really appreciate that. When you start looking after
yourself and start thinking about those things in your own
balance, in your own learning, your own behaviour, you then
start to project that onto otherpeople.
So then I start to appreciate, well actually that person's got
a kid. That person needs this because I
need it, they need it. And when you look after

(46:09):
yourself, you naturally start tolook after the team as well.
And I think I've got a lot better on an individual level of
understanding that. And 1 was just that we had a
manager, we had a guy, brilliantchef, coming in late all the
time, always coming in late. And actually he needs to go.
He's coming in late all the time.
I said well, but he's a brilliant chef, he was just
rubbish at getting up in the morning.
So why don't you just put on picking nights?

(46:31):
So just look, I'm rubbish at night.
I'm great in the morning now because the kids wake me up at
5:00. So time shift, OK, if he's
coming in late on the morning shift, just don't put him on
morning shifts. And he's like, is that OK?
I'm like, that's absolutely fine.
He wants to work evenings. He's also a chef.
They're like gold dust. Yeah, when they want.
To do nights as well, Absolutely.
So by looking after myself and thinking about my own behaviour,

(46:53):
then you look at others and go, actually you don't need to come
down like a ton of bricks. Actually, there's a reason this
is happening. Ask a question.
And in this one we've moved him onto evening so he didn't have
to come in before midday. He's never late again.
Yeah. I think people rarely come in to
do a bad job right? No, don't think anybody gets up
and go and do a really bad shifts.
They annoy everybody. It just happens because stuff is
happening in their Hospitality, unfortunately, is one of those

(47:14):
industries that magnifies it very quickly.
Like you get to know people veryquickly in the trenches rather
than an extra. Yeah.
It's just not a normal place to be.
Look, it's been a fascinating conversation.
I appreciate you coming here andI'm sure Zone will do too.
If people want to reach out to you.
I always ask this question. So be careful what information
you give. But if Darren, if people want to
kind of say hello and get in touch with you, how do they, how

(47:35):
do they find you? LinkedIn is always a safe bet
just to know. LinkedIn.
LinkedIn is absolutely fine. I do check my messages once a
year. That's good.
Thanks. Have you had to?
Probably. Check LinkedIn once every two
years on the message side, so definitely don't do that.
I'm in some town three days a week and if someone comes in and
says hello and shakes my hand, I'll chat to him.

(47:57):
That's a great starting point. Okay, good.
And Gillian, you can find me on.LinkedIn.
LinkedIn. She's on LinkedIn, Right?
That's it. Thank you very much everybody.
Lovely to see you and we'll see you all next week.
Lovely. Thank you very much.