August 21, 2025 • 38 mins
Customer loyalty has evolved. Today, it’s less about “collect 10 stamps, get a free coffee” and more about personalisation, value, and belonging. But what does that look like in practice for pubs, hotels, and restaurants?
In this episode, Chris Fletcher, Founder & CEO of Tech on Toast, sits down with:
Amy Clarke – Head of Marketing, Wyndham Hotels & Resorts
Gillian Nicholson – Sales Director, Zonal
Jamie Queen – Chief Growth Officer, Butcombe Group
Together, they unpack:
🍷 The business case for loyalty – how programmes drive repeat visits, higher spend per head, and measurable ROI.
📲 The digital shift – moving from physical loyalty cards to Apple Wallet and Google Wallet, and why simplicity is key.
📊 The power of data – how operators can use guest behaviour, segmentation, and AI to deliver more relevant offers.
👩🍳 Team buy-in – why front-of-house staff are vital to signing up customers and how Butcombe’s teams doubled their contactable database in two years.
🌍 Global vs local loyalty – Wyndham’s challenge of tailoring rewards for millions of members across 90+ countries versus Butcombe’s pub-level programmes.
🤝 Partnerships & innovation – from Wyndham linking hotel stays with restaurant delivery apps, to Zonal powering bespoke loyalty journeys for operators of every size.
🛠️ Trends to watch – members-only pricing, gamification, festival-style loyalty, and the growing role of AI in hospitality.
💡 Expect a practical, behind-the-scenes look at loyalty programmes that actually work — the kind that make customers feel recognised, not marketed to.
🔗 Connect with the guests:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's just that consistency that leads to predictability.
You need to try and make sure you're winning that customer
loyalty more and more I. Don't want to buy it now if I
can't get the member. I need my 20P, yeah.
Recognition Personalization of offers a customer wants to have.
Making sure that the technology underneath that we can flexibly
work with all of those options to service the customer.
And with the help of saying no, we can now store in Apple Wallet
(00:21):
and Google Wallet. So we'll give them a prompt.
Hey, did you know you couldn't book this experience with your
points to try and get them to engage?
Well, so you'd fill out a welcome card and you get a free
bottle of red or white wine house wine there and then on the
on the nightly. For us, loyalty is there to
drive frequency and spend. Yeah, you have to stand out. 90%
of people are now open to join and load the programs.
(00:42):
I think that's why you're seeingso much change.
Money and data. The details, the critical.
Part and you get points. Those points turn into pounds,
and those pounds you can then spend with us.
Welcome to the next episode of Tech and Says podcast in
partnership with Zonal. And today we're talking about
loyalty that lasts, growing the guests, not just points.
Today we're joined by Amy Clark,Head of marketing at Wyndham
Hotels and Resorts, Gillian Nicholson, sales director at
(01:04):
Zonal, Jamie Queen, Chief growthofficer at Butcom Group and I'm
Chris Fletcher, founder and CEO of Tech on Toast.
In this episode, we're looking specifically at loyalty schemes
and apps. What's the best in class look
like? What makes them effective and
what does the the future look like for those we're rewarding?
Thanks for joining us and enjoy the episode.
Welcome everybody. First of all, we will get into
and I think let's meet each other because I think we're all
strangers today. So I'll start with you, Gillian,
(01:24):
since you've already been on what I'll just start myself.
Where are you from and what do you do?
Something Cilla Black. Gillian Nicholson, sales
Director at Zono. We're a technology company that
has worked in hospitality for over 45 years servicing many
lovely customerssuchas.com. Like you had it planned, Jamie.
(01:45):
Yeah. So I'm Jamie.
I'm Chief Growth Officer for Buckham Group.
We operate pubs across from London, Mayfair, right down to
the southwest coast and then across the Chichester and then
we approach some pubs in ChannelIslands as well.
Nice. We've got a very successful
brewery and one of the fastest growing low alcoholic beers as
well. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a new
(02:07):
thing, right? Well, I say new thing, but it's
been coming for a while. Isn't it that low?
And no. Yeah, low and no is every
drinking people switching between a low alcohol drink and
then a sort of normal, normal alcoholic drink and then back
again? I haven't quite joined that
journey yet. Maybe I'll be on it soon, but I
haven't. And Amy, nice to meet you.
I'm Amy. I'm from Wyndham Hotels, results
Head of Marketing there, been there for 11 years.
(02:28):
So started out e-commerce focused, but taking on brand and
loyalty over the years. And Wyndham is, I mean, it's a
really large hotel, franchising companies, very big in North
America. We're growing here in EMEA with
about 600 hotels in the UK. Our brands like Ramada and Days
Inn are a bit more well known, but yeah, 25 different brands,
(02:50):
almost 9000 hotels, over 90 countries.
So it's, yeah, huge scale. Yeah, good luck with that.
OK, good. And today we'll talk more about,
I suppose, digital loyalty today.
And Gillian, I'll start with youactually because from your
perspective at Zonal, why do youthink why is digital loyalty or
why is digital, I kind of suppose hostility going digital
now, why, why so important and why now?
Why do you think it's suddenly booming?
(03:11):
I suppose. I think we've we've done quite a
bit of research and I think the positive thing is consumers want
to be engaged with. So I think 7073% of consumers
are happy to be engaged with their favorite restaurants,
pubs, bars. And I think obviously the trend
of high frequency and low value visits are becoming less and
(03:32):
less and therefore you need to try and make sure you're winning
that customer loyalty more and more.
So I think engaging with the customers right, the right in
the right way and digitally being probably the most easiest
way. Obviously e-mail is still top of
the ranks for people wanting to engage with some of those
brands. I guess understand your
consumers getting that market and that messaging right to try
(03:54):
and entice them and for repeat visits and increasing that
revenue and transaction spend isreally important.
Yeah. And I think general question to
you guys before I get into the rest of my, my questions, are
you seeing the same thing because I guess how you've been
11 years at Wyndham, how long have you been at?
About 18 to nearly two years. OK.
So have you seen a shift? Were you in the industry prior
to that? Were you in travel before that?
(04:16):
Well, that's really interesting actually, because I think travel
was miles ahead of hostility in terms of I suppose loyalty and
kind of bringing people back. Have you seen a shift I suppose
in in the last few years in whatyou're doing at Buckham in terms
of bringing people on that journey?
Yeah, I think we're seeing more,more and more demand for
loyalty. And I think I think recognition,
personalisation of offers, a customer wants to have some,
(04:39):
some offers that suit them, thatare appropriate to them, that
are personalized to them. And through loyalty, you're able
to do that because effectively you've got access to the data
and understanding of customer behaviour.
And then every transaction that that customer has with you,
every offer that you're able to then give them is incremental.
It's not it's not cannibalizing.So it's good for the business
(05:00):
because we spend promotional spend and offers on driving
incremental behaviour from a customer perspective.
And it's great for the customer because if we're doing our job
well, we should be delivering personalized and tailored
offers. So we're seeing an increase in
demand for loyalty. We've we've seen an increase in
contactable data, so the number of people opted in.
(05:21):
So let's check it out. That part, yeah.
So, so fewer people saying we don't want to sign up to emails
and we're seeing a higher engagement rate on our e-mail
activity where we use loyalty. So, so actually there is better
engagement from customers, perhaps helped by the role of
loyalty in retail. And we can't go into
supermarkets now without gettingthe best offers.
(05:43):
So you don't, you don't see sortof buy one get on free on the
end promotional ends anymore. You see, you see sort of member
offer prices or loyalty offer prices.
And I think that's driving a change in customer behaviour.
I. Think that's something I learned
in Prime Minister. I never heard of a gondola, so I
went to work with Prime Ministerand a gondola is there and the
aisle. And when we used to those
offers, we used to get driven like pushed down in price to go
to take part in those end of offer, end of aisle offers.
(06:07):
And it was really difficult. But I agree, I think that
membership pricing or that kind of because you're part of a club
or whatever it might be, look atPrezzo recently they've just
relaunched and they've got the same kind of Tesco type club
card deal going on. So it's really interesting.
Same for you, Amy. It's, is it, is it interesting
the fact that obviously you're franchising, how many sites were
there you're looking after? Is it 9?
106 hundred in EMEA, right? I look after we've got almost
(06:30):
9000 globally hotels wise. But yeah, I mean, over the past
like over a decade that I've been there, massive change, like
the demand, it's an expectation.I think exactly what you said
about it's kind of mainstream now.
It's everywhere you go. Like if you go around the
supermarket, you see people juststanding there like zombies on
their app, like trying to download the app because I like,
well I don't want to buy it now if I can't get the member.
Price I need my 20P. Yeah.
(06:51):
And so there's this absolute expectation that if I'm going to
buy, I need to be making sure I get the member price.
I can't, I'm not going to buy what's available to everyone.
So yeah, you can't not be in thegame.
It's compulsory. I.
Was going to ask actually I forgot to ask compared to travel
because I'm just because you mentioned it, is it as are they
obviously they're further ahead probably in that journey because
of the digital nature of that business is that is it produced?
(07:14):
Can you see the ROI now potentially what what they've
been doing in terms of loyalty and travel for a long time?
Yeah. I think travel's interesting
because you have to travel whereairlines are involved is higher
frequency. So you need the frequency to be
able to prove out the benefit ofa loyalty program.
I mean, ultimately for us, loyalty is there to drive
frequency and spend and we want to see an increase frequency and
(07:35):
spend and that's how we measure return on investment.
I think in travel, it depends which sector of travel, but
clearly hotels and airlines havethe biggest use case for sort of
loyalty. What's different in I think
hospitality and particularly forus in pubs, is the depth of data
we're able to get. We don't just operate pubs, we
(07:57):
operate pubs with bedrooms and event space and those pubs with
rooms that serve great food and effectively operate like
restaurants, although we call them pubs because we democratise
access to the pub. But actually we've got sort of
three facets to that business. People who come in for a drink,
people who come in to eat and drink with us, and people that
come in to eat and drink and stay with us.
(08:19):
And so that depth of data we're able to get enables us to have
different perspectives, different understanding of
customer behaviour. So we don't actually need as
much frequency to understand a huge amount of data and
understanding of how our customers behave.
Yeah, Cuz I guess the data and travel's a bit more
one-dimensional, right. In terms of how they use cuz
it's a high frequency, it's lessask I suppose.
(08:41):
From your side, yeah. And travel you might be.
If you're on an airline, your ability to spend on the airline
is limited to the things you choose to buy while you're on
the aircraft. Depends on you're traveling.
With my last holiday, I'd argue that point and and that's just
what I'm with you still just to check.
So you've just have you got you've got a lot of programming
(09:01):
book. Yeah.
And I'm interested to understandbefore I come over to Amy and
then Gillian asking about how you drive by and into that from
internally. So actually obviously you're
talking about acquisition from customer side, but actually
getting the team to come along. So I guess they have a big part
to play in bringing people on that journey as well.
They do. It's a 22% of our total
transactions have a loyalty cardappended to them.
So it's quite a significant penetration already of loyalty
(09:23):
within our sort of database or our transactions.
And the team play a critical role in making sure that we get
more customers signed up and we've more than doubled the
number of contactable contact customers we've got on our
database in the last two years. And part of that is down to the
team. So from their very first on
boarding journey with us, they're trained on our way,
(09:45):
which is our training, our customer journey that we
deliver, our way of doing business and treating customers
the right way and giving them great experiences.
And part of that is about loyalty.
I think there are lots of thingswe could continue to look at
improving. We haven't got quite into the
discipline of always asking customers when they are at the
(10:09):
till. Do you have a loyalty card?
But we've put in lots of offers and promotions which drive the
customer to ask. For, yeah.
So they're driving that behavior.
So they're also driving that behavior.
So I think it's a bit of push pull.
We need customers to drive that behavior by asking for the offer
that has that's available for loyalty and then we also need
our teams to be pushing and making it available.
(10:31):
We've made the sign up journey really easy.
We have offers that are only available on a Wednesday.
So Wednesday's now one of our biggest trading days.
We offer 25% of food on a Wednesday.
Is that strategic, just out of interest?
So yeah, there's a reason you'vedriven them to Wednesday,
obviously. Yeah, deliberately because we
wanted to drive before my time Dr. incrementality on that day
of the week. So it's a there are, I'm not
(10:54):
saying that we're fully there yet.
We've still got lots more thingsthat we're learning all the
time. We've just tweaked our sign up
journey. There's still some things we can
do to improve that further. And we're sort of going through
a bit of a challenge in terms ofcurrent.
We've moved our program to be ina digital program with the help
of Zynor. We can now store in Apple Wallet
(11:14):
and Google Wallet the card. But for some of our customers,
they'd prefer a physical card. So we're sort of grappling with,
well, do we make physical cards available for some customers?
How do we do that? How do you differentiate between
what customer would want or not without creating a lot of
complexity? So I think the team play an
(11:35):
absolutely critical role, but I think we also enable customers
to know about loyalty, to understand it, to have it within
the app when they're ordering orpaying their bill.
And that's pretty, pretty critical.
So I think it's a bit of push pull really.
That's cool. Jillian, I'll come back to you
in a SEC about that cuz it's interesting what Zonal are doing
to enable that kind of journey in terms of digitizing what was
(11:57):
I suppose a very manual process originally.
I suppose it was physically cards before and Amy, cuz part
of this problem is well not a problem.
Part of the challenge is personalizing right and making
sure that actually there's an ability to reach the right
customer at the right time and you're you're you've got quite a
vast array of people to get to. How the hell do you do that and
keep and because that because also your users are a bit more
(12:19):
tech savvy without being rude tothe pub go the traveller is a
bit more tech savvy and wants everything at the click of a
button is used to that. How do you kind of weave those
two together? Good.
Luck. Yeah, no, yeah, it's, I mean,
yeah, the number of different countries and demographics that
we're talking to is insane. But it has to be based on data
and technology. And we've been doing a lot of
(12:39):
journey orchestration, we call it with, we partner with Adobe
on this to use real time behavioural data to really
inform like what's the next message that customer's going to
see when they're interacting with us.
So trying to get, you know, business versus leisure
messaging, right, is really difficult.
Really, really you just don't know.
And we have such like a, an array of brands that are, you
(13:02):
know, different for different things at different times, But,
but the behavioural signals we can pick up really help us to,
to get that message right. And also things like if we can
see somebody's been sitting on ahuge points bank for a long
time, they're clearly not reallywanting to spend that on hotel
stays. So we'll give them a prompt.
Hey, did you know you can book this experience with your points
to try and get them to engage? So it's like looking for those
(13:24):
signals and then trying to feedback the right message to
them. And I'm guessing the technology
has to allow you to do that. Obviously, Yeah.
Yeah, exactly has. That been a bit of a truck.
I suppose you have to kiss a fewfrogs to get to that point.
Yeah. I mean, we've done a lot of work
with Adobe in lots of different platforms and it helps to have
everything connected. So, so we do a lot of work with
them, but also everything is tested.
(13:46):
So we make these real incremental changes to see, OK,
we think that we've got a hypothesis, this is going to
make a difference, test it out and then kind of gradually
improve that experience and thatmessaging and see what works.
But yeah, trial and error absolutely all the way that.
Leads me nicer to the product person, trial and error because
I'm guessing to kind of maintainwhat these guys are trying to
achieve from the front end with the user or with their staff.
(14:09):
It's that ability to kind of deliver the product that matches
what they need. How much of A journey have you
guys had to go on to kind of make sure that you're delivering
what, for instance, book companyin terms of digitizing their
experience? I mean, I think for us it's
obviously listening to what our customers are looking for and
making sure that the the plumbing, the infrastructure
that we do from a technology standpoint underneath all links.
(14:32):
I think obviously we're constantly listening to
customers in relation to what kind of unique journeys they
want at the front end. Obviously we did a lot of work
with customers in relation a white labeling, a map, an app.
A lot of customers would prefer to go down a more personalized
route and do that themselves now.
So I think it's all about being open into what every different
customer wants and how they wantto be serviced, but making sure
(14:54):
that the technology underneath that we can flexibly work with
all of those options to service the customer so that each brand,
each operator wants to give their customer a unique
experience. And from a technology
standpoint, it's about us being open to working with not only
there's only technology, but if there is independent apps that
(15:16):
they want to work with it or other partners that we've got
the APIs and integrations there to link it all together.
I. Think you just said that about
the integration in that fact, it's all going to be joined up,
otherwise it becomes more of a problem than it's worth, right?
Yeah. And I think behaviorally have
you seen as much of A change with the is it called the, has
it got a buck? So it does what it says in the
10, but have you seen much has it driven behavioral change?
(15:39):
I know you mentioned the Wednesdays, but are you be able
to move the customers around into I suppose almost to do your
bidding as it would be? Yeah.
So we've got, we can demonstratethat there's a higher level of
frequency, visit frequency and higher level of spend per head
for all of our loyalty customersversus non loyalty customers.
So at a very macro level it doesexactly what we'd like it to do.
It drives frequency and it drives spend per head and that
(16:01):
delivers return and investment. And beyond that, what we're able
to do is understand exactly how those customers are behaving and
what needs we need to meet, whether that's we've got a high
number of regular drinkers. Lots of our hubs have changed
over time. They've moved from being pubs
(16:22):
that have a smaller amount of food to over the last 1520
years, we've diversified like lots of operators.
We've introduced bedrooms, we'veincreased dining space.
So maybe we need to get the balance right in terms of
vertical drinking space and people being able to sit on
tables that aren't laid up. Because from customer feedback,
we know that some of those customers may be put off by the
(16:43):
fact that we've got tables laid up and they don't feel like they
can sit down for a drink. So understanding that and
understanding that exact customer persona and being able
to see, well, actually we have areasonable number of those
customers. In fact, we know exactly how
many of those customers come, how frequently they come, which
days of the week they prefer to come, which drinks they order on
the bar. And then we're able to tailor
(17:03):
the experience we offer, not just the promotions that we
offer, to meet the needs of thatcustomer group, which sometimes
gets lost in. Historically, a pub manager, one
of our general managers, would have known all of their regulars
by name. But over time that the pubs
changed. That's still the case in lots of
(17:24):
our pubs. But actually it's incumbent upon
us to make sure that we use datato understand them and that when
we're communicating, we communicate as if we are the
general manager who sees them every three night, three nights
of the week and and has that conversation.
Because otherwise we'd be doing pretty poor central marketing if
we didn't make sure we represented their needs
individually. So yes, we are seeing overall
(17:47):
increased spend per head and increased frequency, which is
ultimately what we measure our success by.
And have you seen anything in inis your plan?
I'm going to get the name of your program as well.
Do you have a program but? Wyndham Rewards.
I mean, really, yeah, actually Ishould just get this, but are
you seeing the same kind of experience in terms of ROI?
Are you able to measure what what you're getting back quite
quickly in? Terms of, I mean, that's what I
(18:07):
love about loyalty. Of all the things that I do,
loyalty is the one where we can really see the impact quite
clearly. Yeah, because OTAs like online
travel aggregators, they're so expensive to to get our business
even and you know we negotiate as a huge brand, but it's still
a really expensive channel. And you know part of our value
proposition is to fill these hotels with with bookings that
make sense cost of sale wise andloyalty is like the the way to
(18:30):
do it. So we measure a lot of things.
We've got huge data engineering team who look at how it's
performing trying to show the incrementality of it.
And we look at things again likerevenue per booking is about 15%
higher from members versus non members.
Length of stay is longer. So you see more shoulder nights
being booked by members and thatpropensity to book the next stay
(18:54):
with us. So once you've booked your once
you've done Tuesdays, then you're much more likely to then
continue on repeating. I find it fascinating that
because that, like you say, in the old days, that knowledge, I
mean, in your world, who knows, but in the old days it was a
general manager, you know, almost that cheers mentality.
You know what the person's expense to drink at the bar.
But having that data, that value, the value is must be
(19:16):
immeasurable. Is there anything that's really
shocked you in terms of the results you've got?
I did not think that would happen.
I mean, it's surprising sometimes when you get bookings
from members who they've maybe forgotten and they've booked via
an OTA and you're like, didn't you, you know, you could have
got a much better deal here. So part of our messaging is
reminding existing members, makesure you do come back next time
(19:38):
because it's much more lucrativefor you as a consumer to come
and book through the program. And we do all of these kind of
bonus points promotions throughout the year.
And I think historically it was the business travellers who
understood that, but not the average traveller.
Where they're using high. Frequency.
But now where these loyalty programs are kind of becoming
much more mainstream, I think people are getting more savvy to
actually I do need to be a member of that program, book via
(20:01):
that program. I can't book via an OTA.
So I think that's changing a bitmore over time as people are
getting more. Sad.
Yeah, I think so. And I think when people come to
talk to you, actually, not you personally, but to Zonal.
That's right. I'm pointing at you.
When people come to talk to Zonal about loyalty, is is there
a similar goal that you're hearing here that they're trying
to look for from, from going on a bit of a loyalty journey?
As I suppose we had a chap on the podcast just for you guys,
(20:22):
he said there's no such thing asloyalty.
It's called usefulness. How useful are you to your
customers kind of thing are people?
What is their kind of plan when they come to?
What are the goals they're trying to achieve?
Well, I think more and more consumers are looking for value,
what with the cost of living crisis.
But then value can be very subjective, I think to different
people. It doesn't necessarily always
mean the cheapest price. But I think in relation to
obviously, Jamie, you spoke about there the frequency, the
(20:45):
increased spend, I think, but underlying all of that, the data
is the critical part because if you have that, I mean, knowledge
is power. And that's where you can
understand what that customer base looks like, how you need to
market to them. Because the other thing about
loyalty as well, isn't it you, we don't want to be giving away
stuff for free. It's market margin erosion at
the end of the day. So therefore you need to see
(21:07):
those those growth tactics and you're hitting those goals for
whatever strategically you set out for your loyalty plan.
So I think, yeah, obviously the frequency and increase spend,
but underlying that the data is the critical part to get.
That knowledge, money and data basically it's true.
And I think that actual journey for the customer, it has become,
(21:27):
as you said, it's becoming more frequent and people get more
used to these programs. Everyone's got a digital wallet
full of stuff now and they're kind of understanding it.
How hard is it to integrate thatinto your individual journeys?
I'll start with you. You know, we talked a little bit
about, you talked about the forgotten, I suppose we'll call
them the guys that like the physical card and there's a
certain age group maybe that doesn't want to do the digital
thing. You talked a little bit about it
there, but how are you kind of working to keep them, I suppose
(21:48):
involved in the program and makesure they don't get left behind?
Yeah, I think we, so I think thefirst and foremost simplicity of
access is definitely key. So we have one, we won't, we
won't integrate any part of our loyalty program if it doesn't
use the same loyalty card. So we have a single loyalty card
(22:09):
across all of our pubs, all of our managed pubs, and that
loyalty card enables you to redeem points and spend points
against bedrooms and accommodation.
It's the same for food and it's the same for drinks.
So the first thing is it needs to be simple enough that it
works in all places, which isn'talways true of all operators who
run loyalty programs. And I think there are examples
(22:32):
in other sectors such as hotels where you can have quite a big
disconnect where you can spend on the on the rooms, but you
find that the restaurants franchise and it doesn't accept
it. And that creates a disconnect
and also almost a sort of lack of trust and integrity in the
scheme. So I think the first thing is we
make it really simple. We've made the sign up process a
(22:52):
simple simpler and we'll continue to do that.
And we build data over time. So we don't necessarily require
you to fill in an enormously long form with lots and lots of
details. We'll build our understanding of
you as a customer over time. The other information,
questionnaires, surveys, ways you interact with us, which
helps us reduce the pain at the beginning of the process, which
(23:16):
which ultimately helps our sign up journey.
So I think that's a key part. And then making sure that our
sign posting is really simple. Yeah, so it's a really simple
scheme. You get points, those points
turn into pounds and those pounds you can then spend.
With us, we don't have very complicated dynamics like you
can multiply those points or we've had the various debates
(23:38):
about increasing the value of the points at certain times of
the year. But the simplicity of keeping to
the same number of points all year round, the point of sale
stays the same, The messaging from the team stays the same.
We have Buckham Wednesday's, we have some offers that we put on
from time to time which will enhance that.
You get 20% of bedrooms. It's a very simple, stable,
(23:59):
predictable offer. The only thing we change in and
out at different offers at the moment.
We've got a really great offer for loyalty breakfast because
it's a really key day part for us.
We've got great amenities, our pubs are fantastic, they already
serve breakfast and lots of customers staying with us.
So we offer a loyalty breakfast for anyone who'd like to come in
(24:20):
and spend time with us and that's a morning.
So a really key growth for us. But that's really simple.
It just requires you to scan your card and you get the
loyalty breakfast. So simple execution of offer and
gatekeeping of the offers to make sure that they continue to
be as simple as possible. Yeah, I totally agree.
It's just that consistency that leads to predictability.
(24:42):
Do you know what I mean? And I think often the same with
operations in my career when I spent my life in restaurants
that actually when you get predictable, you get really good
people's. Once people know expect what
you're going to do, you get really good.
And I think for you this might be more challenging because
you've got to go through that actually, you know, you have
rooms now as well. So you kind of you have to go
through that whole process. How do you kind of monitor it
from or manage manage their journey, I suppose from them
(25:03):
from their landing on Google allway through to checking out and
keeping them in the in the program is that do you learn
quite a lot from the different brands?
I'm I'm intrigued to think. Yeah, we do.
And as you were talking about simplicity, that was really
interesting because our whole program was built on like
simplicity as one of the pillars.
And I think it's what stands outfor Wyndham Rewards in
particular because we don't havelike dynamic points costs.
(25:23):
It's, you know, we have a fit. This is what it costs for a free
night. That's it.
And it doesn't change for you and you just know.
So I think simplicity is so important.
But yeah, like that user journeygoing all the way from like the
research to after the stay, I think the member discount is the
most obvious first touch point where it's an expectation, but
it doesn't really create much ofA connection with the consumer.
(25:45):
They expect that discount. I don't think that's enough to
have them hooked really to come back.
So we're kind of looking at other places in the journey.
And one thing that we're we're launching this year, which I
think is really cool, is it starts starting in the US, but
I'm hoping we can bring it to Europe where you can order from
our Wyndham app. When you're in the hotel, you
can order your meal from like Applebee's, which is a
(26:08):
restaurant around the corner. It gets delivered free to the
hotel and you get points on thatorder.
That's cool. And it's all done within the
Wyndham app. And so it's kind of integrated.
It's generous, it's easy, and soit's the first time we're doing
that, but I'm hoping we can growthat, you know, different
restaurants, different countries, and I think it'd be
really interesting to see. It is interesting because you're
almost eking into partnerships, almost like a.
(26:29):
Technology type, I do think for loyalty partnerships is really
important because you just need these things to set you apart
that that have these meaningful connections that make you want
to come back to that brand again, because points to redeem
on nights is kind of, you know, everyone's doing it.
You could probably get that anywhere and it's important, but
these other opportunities are really interesting and
(26:52):
compelling and sets you apart. I, I guess we're close to
saturation, not saturation, but it must be challenging out if
you think of us all as consumersfor a minute and not as people
with jobs. But you know, there's a lot of
stuff in my inbox, a lot of stuff in my digital wallet.
It's, it's becoming a bit of a, it's hard, isn't it, to stay
relevant when there's so much noise.
So I think you have to be go think out-of-the-box.
I was going to say, Julian, whenthere's two very different
(27:13):
programmes here, well, you know,in terms of the size of business
or whatever they might be. And when how hard is it for you
as zonal to manage between thosetwo things?
Or how hard is it to help an operator to find their mark or
to kind of play to their brand strengths, even though 1 might
be an independent pub chain or one might be a huge hotel
resort? I mean, I think we can kind of
try and help operators and customers coach them through
(27:35):
that. But I think the point is there's
a lot of uncovering what that brand and what you're messaging
and what you mean to customers as and what you how you want to
be portrayed when you are deploying A loyalty scheme.
And that will obviously vary drastically to whether it's a
small pub chain or whether it's a UK based or a global kind of
(27:57):
restaurant or casual dining situation.
So I think it's all about understanding again, that the
kind of strategic goals of your brand and what you want from
that messaging. I mean, ultimately for us
underneath Lincoln, the tech andthe plumbings and it's very it's
the same, yeah. But I think it's, it's making
sure that the loyalty program that people are putting out
there is, is going to be received well by your customers,
(28:20):
the different demographics that you know that, yeah, there is
nuances within those demographics and how do you
tailor them. And ultimately, again, the data
underneath that is is where you uncover all of that, all of
those little gems. And I totally agree, I meant to
ask, do you have a favorite loyalty program that you use
individually in terms of like something you'll go to everyday?
I mean, mine is Tesco. Obviously I'm a bit sad.
(28:43):
What were you looking to have for?
You know, I, I was actually justthinking it's one of said.
It's not one of said. Favorite, favorite wasn't the
right word. Yeah, yeah.
My most used, yeah, yeah. They all looked at me like, who
is that? Yeah, yeah.
And Phil Gracie staring at me aswell.
So yeah. So actually my Nike, my Nike law
is my favorite one because it's pretty cool.
The night loyalty is very cool. But yeah, I use Tesco frequently
(29:04):
because it I think back to our consistency conversation.
You just know what it's going todo.
Is there? Have you got a favorite one to
use? Regularly, well, I would say
regularly. It's probably got to be retail
actually, from my that's good. Yeah.
Well, from a hospitality perspective, probably.
I would shout out Pizza Express existing customer.
What about you? You've got a thing that's
sitting on you must have something on your phone.
It's quite weird when you ask people because a lot of people
(29:25):
think, but you're probably part of many that use few.
Yeah, I think one of my favourites for gamification is
Littles. Yeah, my team are familiar about
this as well. Why I haven't used it so now
I'm. Intrigued.
The Lidl app has several elementlayers of complexity to it, so
(29:45):
it feels, it feels like it should be complex, right?
But the way they've built the UXmakes it quite simple.
So you get sort of free things when you go in.
So the idea is you open it as you go into the shop, which I'm
terrible at remembering to do, but I like the gamification of
it. So you go in, it looks at what
you put previously, it gives youa free sort of of some
(30:09):
description often very personalized on something you've
bought before and maybe you're out of frequency of buying.
And I wonder whether there is anelement of daypart and stock
management for that as well. I would I would suggest there
probably. Is that they love you.
I don't do. That because quite often bakery
bakery items appear later in theday, which sort of suggests they
(30:32):
know they need to get rid of them.
But I'm not sure. I mean it would be smart.
No, no, you're right. They.
Weren't doing that. And then there's another spend
element as well. So you'll then get a discount
based upon your total accumulated spend within a 30
day period, which I also think is a sort of instant
gratification. You can get something while
you're there and then this sort of long term build up over the
course of a month. And then I don't know what the
(30:54):
splits are, but I think if you spend sort of 200 lbs, you get
10% off your next shot. So it's fairly meaningful in
terms of the actual discount somebody will get.
But I like the fact it's some gratification while you're there
and then. I think that's a key part, isn't
it? Being able to give someone, I
mean, Carluccio's when I was there back in the day, used to
have to make it was before the digital world.
We had our welcome cards on the table.
(31:15):
So you'd fill out a welcome cardand you'd get a free bottle of
red or white wine house wine there and then on the, on the
night. But we'd, I mean, we used to
have to send these bags full of postcards to head office with
all like thousands of these posts because everyone loved it,
right? And we partnered with a company
called Anatria. I think we got a massive
discount on the wine. So they were.
So everyone was winning. And it was possibly one of the
best programs we've ever seen because we had 100 sites at one
point delivering those 2000 cards a week from every site.
(31:38):
So yeah, really cover. What about you?
I mean, it's a classic, but I dolike the BA Executive Club
because I mean, I think they're probably one of the early ones.
And I love because the the different tiers within it are
quite important in terms of the benefits you get.
And so like seeing how much I'vegot to go until I get to that.
Did you travel much today? Are you much in the States?
Or I used to travel a lot more earlier in my career.
(31:59):
And as we've grown, we've got more people in offices around,
so don't have to travel. To be honest, it works out quite
well now. But I have started to see my,
my, my tears go back down, down the ladder.
But it was just I, it was just, you know, I think they must have
put a lot of money and thought into it and it just worked
really well. I know a lot of people have a
love hate relationship with thatkind of thing.
But yeah, I've I've used it a lot and I found it.
(32:20):
Useful. I think the airlines really set
the standard and they feel kind of understanding what the
travellers do, what the customers do, forget they're a
traveller for a minute, what thecustomer is doing and how
they've behaved and rewards on upon that, which was they were
very good. And now I feel bad about my
Tesco thing. Literally as you've been
talking, thinking, think of something else quick.
I just can't. But little took me down so it's
fine. So it's been really interesting
(32:43):
chat to you guys, but I'd love to know what 1 trend you think's
coming, I suppose in terms of loyalty or bringing someone
back, whatever you want to call it.
Is there something interesting coming down the road that we
don't know about or that you might know about or what you'd
like to see? Start with you over there,
Jamie. I think we've talked a lot about
use of data, but I think very few people certainly in casual
(33:04):
dining and pub sector are using the data that's available or
that they're collecting. And if you think about customer
personas, segmentation of customers over time,
historically you would have looked at a sample size.
So you'd go and do a market research questionnaire or you
would go and take a sample of data from Experian or someone
(33:24):
like that or a market research agency.
You'd use that sample to then say, well, how many of those
customers spend maybe with some credit card data overlay.
Yeah, but your sample size wouldbe relatively small and you'd
come out with some segments of customers and a little bit like
Amy alluded to earlier, the opportunity to use machine
learning and data analytics and more advanced of AI techniques
(33:46):
to be able to do what we could only dream of doing 10 years ago
because computing power just wasn't there.
I. Was going to say you have a data
team and I don't. Do you have a data?
It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.
So we've, we've, we've really invested in data over the last
18 months and we have a data team who are able to take all of
(34:07):
those 22% of all of those transactions that we have in
loyalty and build. Well, I won't get into the
geekery of it. K means cluster models and
various techniques to be able toanalyze how customers behave.
We break it into 7 personas or segments of how customers behave
and we can see daily how those customers behave and move over
(34:29):
time. And I think the big change is
coming through how cost effective that is to do now.
So business wouldn't have had the scale to be able to invest
in. That's what I'm saying for
people listening in and you're just thinking how do I not
compete? But how do I get to that point?
And the answer is going to be AIright into the machine learning
(34:49):
the way that it does. Yeah, and same question.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard not to talk about AI like that.
You. Have to do it.
It's like a given on every podcast.
I know. I try and get as far as I can
without talking about it. But I know, I mean, it's it's a
given to I'll park AI and I think one of the things I'm most
excited about, and we talked about it at the start of the
podcast and actually all throughis just how mainstream it's
(35:09):
getting and opening the door to lots of new customers that I
was. I was at a festival this weekend
and the festival had an app and the app had a loyalty scheme.
And like, you know, three years ago you wouldn't no, wouldn't
have thought so, but it was it worked really well.
The technology was amazing. I was redeeming at the festival
whilst I was there. And I thought, wow, like all of
these people just think, don't think twice about getting the
(35:31):
app out, engaging with it. And so I think for us that
really opens up a lot more because we're, you know, our
hotels are mid scale economy getting it into a bit of upscale
and there's just a huge base of people there who haven't really
engaged with points and programsin the past, but they're getting
more into it. And I just think it really puts
(35:52):
a lot of opportunity there for us to tap into them and, and,
and get them using the app and, and engaging with us.
So I'm excited to see the growththat we're going to get from
that base that we've not been able to really penetrate before.
It's always been, you know, the business travellers who who live
for points. But yeah, I know, I know there's
whole, there's whole forums of people discussing where they can
(36:14):
get the points, which is great and we love them, but they.
Need to go out more. I know they don't get more
points. Yeah.
And I think some of the researchthat we've done absolutely backs
up that, yeah, 90% of people arenow open to joining loads of
programs. I think that's why you're seeing
so much change like that for us because there is that openness.
And I think we kind of touched on it before and I suppose it's
members only pricing it talks about to the retail element that
(36:38):
we've mentioned as that's certainly something that we see
as kind of an upcoming trend andchange.
But it can be love it or loathe it and I guess.
Yeah, I guess it's a risk as well, right?
Because the more people who wantto participate means that
participation means that actually the playing field needs
to be. Yeah.
You have to stand. Out needs to deliver, otherwise
you're going to get people at a festival who have engaged with
the Lords, programmer.com, for instance, Go there expecting the
(37:00):
same experience, Then don't go alittle and don't get the same
experience and then disappoint and then detract.
They turn to detractors, not advocates.
So I didn't ask you, did you? Is this something you see coming
down the road or were you on thesame?
Well, yeah, I, I was just saying, I think we've seen
there's like 49% increase in like members only prices.
So I think that's definitely a trend that we are seeing as
picking up. But I think you just need to be
careful as to who, what demographic you've got within
(37:22):
your customer reason, whether that is a pull or a push factor
because yeah, some people are not so much of a fan of it.
No, it's true placing, but I think people want to belong to
some. It's been going forever, right?
When I was a kid, there was obviously this football club.
Everyone follows a club or a band or whatever it might be,
but I think it's that I think tapping into people's psyche
where they really understand that they want to belong to
something but feel and it feels seamless is obviously a root to
(37:44):
success. But easier said than done, I'm
sure. But look, thank you very much
for coming and seeing us all. I appreciate your time.
Before we let you go, if people have listened to you and
thought, oh, that's quite interesting, I'd like to know
more. Can they contact you?
Is there any way that the safestway they can find you?
Yeah, easiest find me on LinkedIn.
Yeah, go for it, I'll be there. Same.
Same. Thing no one's given out their
phone number here. And Gillian?
Yeah, LinkedIn, yeah. There you go.
(38:06):
Look, thank you very much for listening everyone.
That was Tech and Toast podcast with our partners Zonal and
we'll see you all next week. Thank you.
It's just that consistency that leads to predictability.
You need to try and make sure you're winning that customer
loyalty more and more I. Don't want to buy it now if I
can't get the member. I need my 20P, yeah.
Recognition Personalization of offers a customer wants to have.
Making sure that the technology underneath that we can flexibly
work with all of those options to service the customer.
And with the help of saying no, we can now store in Apple Wallet
(00:21):
and Google Wallet. So we'll give them a prompt.
Hey, did you know you couldn't book this experience with your
points to try and get them to engage?
Well, so you'd fill out a welcome card and you get a free
bottle of red or white wine house wine there and then on the
on the nightly. For us, loyalty is there to
drive frequency and spend. Yeah, you have to stand out. 90%
of people are now open to join and load the programs.
(00:42):
I think that's why you're seeingso much change.
Money and data. The details, the critical.
Part and you get points. Those points turn into pounds,
and those pounds you can then spend with us.
Welcome to the next episode of Tech and Says podcast in
partnership with Zonal. And today we're talking about
loyalty that lasts, growing the guests, not just points.
Today we're joined by Amy Clark,Head of marketing at Wyndham
Hotels and Resorts, Gillian Nicholson, sales director at
(01:04):
Zonal, Jamie Queen, Chief growthofficer at Butcom Group and I'm
Chris Fletcher, founder and CEO of Tech on Toast.
In this episode, we're looking specifically at loyalty schemes
and apps. What's the best in class look
like? What makes them effective and
what does the the future look like for those we're rewarding?
Thanks for joining us and enjoy the episode.
Welcome everybody. First of all, we will get into
and I think let's meet each other because I think we're all
strangers today. So I'll start with you, Gillian,
(01:24):
since you've already been on what I'll just start myself.
Where are you from and what do you do?
Something Cilla Black. Gillian Nicholson, sales
Director at Zono. We're a technology company that
has worked in hospitality for over 45 years servicing many
lovely customerssuchas.com. Like you had it planned, Jamie.
(01:45):
Yeah. So I'm Jamie.
I'm Chief Growth Officer for Buckham Group.
We operate pubs across from London, Mayfair, right down to
the southwest coast and then across the Chichester and then
we approach some pubs in ChannelIslands as well.
Nice. We've got a very successful
brewery and one of the fastest growing low alcoholic beers as
well. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a new
(02:07):
thing, right? Well, I say new thing, but it's
been coming for a while. Isn't it that low?
And no. Yeah, low and no is every
drinking people switching between a low alcohol drink and
then a sort of normal, normal alcoholic drink and then back
again? I haven't quite joined that
journey yet. Maybe I'll be on it soon, but I
haven't. And Amy, nice to meet you.
I'm Amy. I'm from Wyndham Hotels, results
Head of Marketing there, been there for 11 years.
(02:28):
So started out e-commerce focused, but taking on brand and
loyalty over the years. And Wyndham is, I mean, it's a
really large hotel, franchising companies, very big in North
America. We're growing here in EMEA with
about 600 hotels in the UK. Our brands like Ramada and Days
Inn are a bit more well known, but yeah, 25 different brands,
(02:50):
almost 9000 hotels, over 90 countries.
So it's, yeah, huge scale. Yeah, good luck with that.
OK, good. And today we'll talk more about,
I suppose, digital loyalty today.
And Gillian, I'll start with youactually because from your
perspective at Zonal, why do youthink why is digital loyalty or
why is digital, I kind of suppose hostility going digital
now, why, why so important and why now?
Why do you think it's suddenly booming?
(03:11):
I suppose. I think we've we've done quite a
bit of research and I think the positive thing is consumers want
to be engaged with. So I think 7073% of consumers
are happy to be engaged with their favorite restaurants,
pubs, bars. And I think obviously the trend
of high frequency and low value visits are becoming less and
(03:32):
less and therefore you need to try and make sure you're winning
that customer loyalty more and more.
So I think engaging with the customers right, the right in
the right way and digitally being probably the most easiest
way. Obviously e-mail is still top of
the ranks for people wanting to engage with some of those
brands. I guess understand your
consumers getting that market and that messaging right to try
(03:54):
and entice them and for repeat visits and increasing that
revenue and transaction spend isreally important.
Yeah. And I think general question to
you guys before I get into the rest of my, my questions, are
you seeing the same thing because I guess how you've been
11 years at Wyndham, how long have you been at?
About 18 to nearly two years. OK.
So have you seen a shift? Were you in the industry prior
to that? Were you in travel before that?
(04:16):
Well, that's really interesting actually, because I think travel
was miles ahead of hostility in terms of I suppose loyalty and
kind of bringing people back. Have you seen a shift I suppose
in in the last few years in whatyou're doing at Buckham in terms
of bringing people on that journey?
Yeah, I think we're seeing more,more and more demand for
loyalty. And I think I think recognition,
personalisation of offers, a customer wants to have some,
(04:39):
some offers that suit them, thatare appropriate to them, that
are personalized to them. And through loyalty, you're able
to do that because effectively you've got access to the data
and understanding of customer behaviour.
And then every transaction that that customer has with you,
every offer that you're able to then give them is incremental.
It's not it's not cannibalizing.So it's good for the business
(05:00):
because we spend promotional spend and offers on driving
incremental behaviour from a customer perspective.
And it's great for the customer because if we're doing our job
well, we should be delivering personalized and tailored
offers. So we're seeing an increase in
demand for loyalty. We've we've seen an increase in
contactable data, so the number of people opted in.
(05:21):
So let's check it out. That part, yeah.
So, so fewer people saying we don't want to sign up to emails
and we're seeing a higher engagement rate on our e-mail
activity where we use loyalty. So, so actually there is better
engagement from customers, perhaps helped by the role of
loyalty in retail. And we can't go into
supermarkets now without gettingthe best offers.
(05:43):
So you don't, you don't see sortof buy one get on free on the
end promotional ends anymore. You see, you see sort of member
offer prices or loyalty offer prices.
And I think that's driving a change in customer behaviour.
I. Think that's something I learned
in Prime Minister. I never heard of a gondola, so I
went to work with Prime Ministerand a gondola is there and the
aisle. And when we used to those
offers, we used to get driven like pushed down in price to go
to take part in those end of offer, end of aisle offers.
(06:07):
And it was really difficult. But I agree, I think that
membership pricing or that kind of because you're part of a club
or whatever it might be, look atPrezzo recently they've just
relaunched and they've got the same kind of Tesco type club
card deal going on. So it's really interesting.
Same for you, Amy. It's, is it, is it interesting
the fact that obviously you're franchising, how many sites were
there you're looking after? Is it 9?
106 hundred in EMEA, right? I look after we've got almost
(06:30):
9000 globally hotels wise. But yeah, I mean, over the past
like over a decade that I've been there, massive change, like
the demand, it's an expectation.I think exactly what you said
about it's kind of mainstream now.
It's everywhere you go. Like if you go around the
supermarket, you see people juststanding there like zombies on
their app, like trying to download the app because I like,
well I don't want to buy it now if I can't get the member.
Price I need my 20P. Yeah.
(06:51):
And so there's this absolute expectation that if I'm going to
buy, I need to be making sure I get the member price.
I can't, I'm not going to buy what's available to everyone.
So yeah, you can't not be in thegame.
It's compulsory. I.
Was going to ask actually I forgot to ask compared to travel
because I'm just because you mentioned it, is it as are they
obviously they're further ahead probably in that journey because
of the digital nature of that business is that is it produced?
(07:14):
Can you see the ROI now potentially what what they've
been doing in terms of loyalty and travel for a long time?
Yeah. I think travel's interesting
because you have to travel whereairlines are involved is higher
frequency. So you need the frequency to be
able to prove out the benefit ofa loyalty program.
I mean, ultimately for us, loyalty is there to drive
frequency and spend and we want to see an increase frequency and
(07:35):
spend and that's how we measure return on investment.
I think in travel, it depends which sector of travel, but
clearly hotels and airlines havethe biggest use case for sort of
loyalty. What's different in I think
hospitality and particularly forus in pubs, is the depth of data
we're able to get. We don't just operate pubs, we
(07:57):
operate pubs with bedrooms and event space and those pubs with
rooms that serve great food and effectively operate like
restaurants, although we call them pubs because we democratise
access to the pub. But actually we've got sort of
three facets to that business. People who come in for a drink,
people who come in to eat and drink with us, and people that
come in to eat and drink and stay with us.
(08:19):
And so that depth of data we're able to get enables us to have
different perspectives, different understanding of
customer behaviour. So we don't actually need as
much frequency to understand a huge amount of data and
understanding of how our customers behave.
Yeah, Cuz I guess the data and travel's a bit more
one-dimensional, right. In terms of how they use cuz
it's a high frequency, it's lessask I suppose.
(08:41):
From your side, yeah. And travel you might be.
If you're on an airline, your ability to spend on the airline
is limited to the things you choose to buy while you're on
the aircraft. Depends on you're traveling.
With my last holiday, I'd argue that point and and that's just
what I'm with you still just to check.
So you've just have you got you've got a lot of programming
(09:01):
book. Yeah.
And I'm interested to understandbefore I come over to Amy and
then Gillian asking about how you drive by and into that from
internally. So actually obviously you're
talking about acquisition from customer side, but actually
getting the team to come along. So I guess they have a big part
to play in bringing people on that journey as well.
They do. It's a 22% of our total
transactions have a loyalty cardappended to them.
So it's quite a significant penetration already of loyalty
(09:23):
within our sort of database or our transactions.
And the team play a critical role in making sure that we get
more customers signed up and we've more than doubled the
number of contactable contact customers we've got on our
database in the last two years. And part of that is down to the
team. So from their very first on
boarding journey with us, they're trained on our way,
(09:45):
which is our training, our customer journey that we
deliver, our way of doing business and treating customers
the right way and giving them great experiences.
And part of that is about loyalty.
I think there are lots of thingswe could continue to look at
improving. We haven't got quite into the
discipline of always asking customers when they are at the
(10:09):
till. Do you have a loyalty card?
But we've put in lots of offers and promotions which drive the
customer to ask. For, yeah.
So they're driving that behavior.
So they're also driving that behavior.
So I think it's a bit of push pull.
We need customers to drive that behavior by asking for the offer
that has that's available for loyalty and then we also need
our teams to be pushing and making it available.
(10:31):
We've made the sign up journey really easy.
We have offers that are only available on a Wednesday.
So Wednesday's now one of our biggest trading days.
We offer 25% of food on a Wednesday.
Is that strategic, just out of interest?
So yeah, there's a reason you'vedriven them to Wednesday,
obviously. Yeah, deliberately because we
wanted to drive before my time Dr. incrementality on that day
of the week. So it's a there are, I'm not
(10:54):
saying that we're fully there yet.
We've still got lots more thingsthat we're learning all the
time. We've just tweaked our sign up
journey. There's still some things we can
do to improve that further. And we're sort of going through
a bit of a challenge in terms ofcurrent.
We've moved our program to be ina digital program with the help
of Zynor. We can now store in Apple Wallet
(11:14):
and Google Wallet the card. But for some of our customers,
they'd prefer a physical card. So we're sort of grappling with,
well, do we make physical cards available for some customers?
How do we do that? How do you differentiate between
what customer would want or not without creating a lot of
complexity? So I think the team play an
(11:35):
absolutely critical role, but I think we also enable customers
to know about loyalty, to understand it, to have it within
the app when they're ordering orpaying their bill.
And that's pretty, pretty critical.
So I think it's a bit of push pull really.
That's cool. Jillian, I'll come back to you
in a SEC about that cuz it's interesting what Zonal are doing
to enable that kind of journey in terms of digitizing what was
(11:57):
I suppose a very manual process originally.
I suppose it was physically cards before and Amy, cuz part
of this problem is well not a problem.
Part of the challenge is personalizing right and making
sure that actually there's an ability to reach the right
customer at the right time and you're you're you've got quite a
vast array of people to get to. How the hell do you do that and
keep and because that because also your users are a bit more
(12:19):
tech savvy without being rude tothe pub go the traveller is a
bit more tech savvy and wants everything at the click of a
button is used to that. How do you kind of weave those
two together? Good.
Luck. Yeah, no, yeah, it's, I mean,
yeah, the number of different countries and demographics that
we're talking to is insane. But it has to be based on data
and technology. And we've been doing a lot of
(12:39):
journey orchestration, we call it with, we partner with Adobe
on this to use real time behavioural data to really
inform like what's the next message that customer's going to
see when they're interacting with us.
So trying to get, you know, business versus leisure
messaging, right, is really difficult.
Really, really you just don't know.
And we have such like a, an array of brands that are, you
(13:02):
know, different for different things at different times, But,
but the behavioural signals we can pick up really help us to,
to get that message right. And also things like if we can
see somebody's been sitting on ahuge points bank for a long
time, they're clearly not reallywanting to spend that on hotel
stays. So we'll give them a prompt.
Hey, did you know you can book this experience with your points
to try and get them to engage? So it's like looking for those
(13:24):
signals and then trying to feedback the right message to
them. And I'm guessing the technology
has to allow you to do that. Obviously, Yeah.
Yeah, exactly has. That been a bit of a truck.
I suppose you have to kiss a fewfrogs to get to that point.
Yeah. I mean, we've done a lot of work
with Adobe in lots of different platforms and it helps to have
everything connected. So, so we do a lot of work with
them, but also everything is tested.
(13:46):
So we make these real incremental changes to see, OK,
we think that we've got a hypothesis, this is going to
make a difference, test it out and then kind of gradually
improve that experience and thatmessaging and see what works.
But yeah, trial and error absolutely all the way that.
Leads me nicer to the product person, trial and error because
I'm guessing to kind of maintainwhat these guys are trying to
achieve from the front end with the user or with their staff.
(14:09):
It's that ability to kind of deliver the product that matches
what they need. How much of A journey have you
guys had to go on to kind of make sure that you're delivering
what, for instance, book companyin terms of digitizing their
experience? I mean, I think for us it's
obviously listening to what our customers are looking for and
making sure that the the plumbing, the infrastructure
that we do from a technology standpoint underneath all links.
(14:32):
I think obviously we're constantly listening to
customers in relation to what kind of unique journeys they
want at the front end. Obviously we did a lot of work
with customers in relation a white labeling, a map, an app.
A lot of customers would prefer to go down a more personalized
route and do that themselves now.
So I think it's all about being open into what every different
customer wants and how they wantto be serviced, but making sure
(14:54):
that the technology underneath that we can flexibly work with
all of those options to service the customer so that each brand,
each operator wants to give their customer a unique
experience. And from a technology
standpoint, it's about us being open to working with not only
there's only technology, but if there is independent apps that
(15:16):
they want to work with it or other partners that we've got
the APIs and integrations there to link it all together.
I. Think you just said that about
the integration in that fact, it's all going to be joined up,
otherwise it becomes more of a problem than it's worth, right?
Yeah. And I think behaviorally have
you seen as much of A change with the is it called the, has
it got a buck? So it does what it says in the
10, but have you seen much has it driven behavioral change?
(15:39):
I know you mentioned the Wednesdays, but are you be able
to move the customers around into I suppose almost to do your
bidding as it would be? Yeah.
So we've got, we can demonstratethat there's a higher level of
frequency, visit frequency and higher level of spend per head
for all of our loyalty customersversus non loyalty customers.
So at a very macro level it doesexactly what we'd like it to do.
It drives frequency and it drives spend per head and that
(16:01):
delivers return and investment. And beyond that, what we're able
to do is understand exactly how those customers are behaving and
what needs we need to meet, whether that's we've got a high
number of regular drinkers. Lots of our hubs have changed
over time. They've moved from being pubs
(16:22):
that have a smaller amount of food to over the last 1520
years, we've diversified like lots of operators.
We've introduced bedrooms, we'veincreased dining space.
So maybe we need to get the balance right in terms of
vertical drinking space and people being able to sit on
tables that aren't laid up. Because from customer feedback,
we know that some of those customers may be put off by the
(16:43):
fact that we've got tables laid up and they don't feel like they
can sit down for a drink. So understanding that and
understanding that exact customer persona and being able
to see, well, actually we have areasonable number of those
customers. In fact, we know exactly how
many of those customers come, how frequently they come, which
days of the week they prefer to come, which drinks they order on
the bar. And then we're able to tailor
(17:03):
the experience we offer, not just the promotions that we
offer, to meet the needs of thatcustomer group, which sometimes
gets lost in. Historically, a pub manager, one
of our general managers, would have known all of their regulars
by name. But over time that the pubs
changed. That's still the case in lots of
(17:24):
our pubs. But actually it's incumbent upon
us to make sure that we use datato understand them and that when
we're communicating, we communicate as if we are the
general manager who sees them every three night, three nights
of the week and and has that conversation.
Because otherwise we'd be doing pretty poor central marketing if
we didn't make sure we represented their needs
individually. So yes, we are seeing overall
(17:47):
increased spend per head and increased frequency, which is
ultimately what we measure our success by.
And have you seen anything in inis your plan?
I'm going to get the name of your program as well.
Do you have a program but? Wyndham Rewards.
I mean, really, yeah, actually Ishould just get this, but are
you seeing the same kind of experience in terms of ROI?
Are you able to measure what what you're getting back quite
quickly in? Terms of, I mean, that's what I
(18:07):
love about loyalty. Of all the things that I do,
loyalty is the one where we can really see the impact quite
clearly. Yeah, because OTAs like online
travel aggregators, they're so expensive to to get our business
even and you know we negotiate as a huge brand, but it's still
a really expensive channel. And you know part of our value
proposition is to fill these hotels with with bookings that
make sense cost of sale wise andloyalty is like the the way to
(18:30):
do it. So we measure a lot of things.
We've got huge data engineering team who look at how it's
performing trying to show the incrementality of it.
And we look at things again likerevenue per booking is about 15%
higher from members versus non members.
Length of stay is longer. So you see more shoulder nights
being booked by members and thatpropensity to book the next stay
(18:54):
with us. So once you've booked your once
you've done Tuesdays, then you're much more likely to then
continue on repeating. I find it fascinating that
because that, like you say, in the old days, that knowledge, I
mean, in your world, who knows, but in the old days it was a
general manager, you know, almost that cheers mentality.
You know what the person's expense to drink at the bar.
But having that data, that value, the value is must be
(19:16):
immeasurable. Is there anything that's really
shocked you in terms of the results you've got?
I did not think that would happen.
I mean, it's surprising sometimes when you get bookings
from members who they've maybe forgotten and they've booked via
an OTA and you're like, didn't you, you know, you could have
got a much better deal here. So part of our messaging is
reminding existing members, makesure you do come back next time
(19:38):
because it's much more lucrativefor you as a consumer to come
and book through the program. And we do all of these kind of
bonus points promotions throughout the year.
And I think historically it was the business travellers who
understood that, but not the average traveller.
Where they're using high. Frequency.
But now where these loyalty programs are kind of becoming
much more mainstream, I think people are getting more savvy to
actually I do need to be a member of that program, book via
(20:01):
that program. I can't book via an OTA.
So I think that's changing a bitmore over time as people are
getting more. Sad.
Yeah, I think so. And I think when people come to
talk to you, actually, not you personally, but to Zonal.
That's right. I'm pointing at you.
When people come to talk to Zonal about loyalty, is is there
a similar goal that you're hearing here that they're trying
to look for from, from going on a bit of a loyalty journey?
As I suppose we had a chap on the podcast just for you guys,
(20:22):
he said there's no such thing asloyalty.
It's called usefulness. How useful are you to your
customers kind of thing are people?
What is their kind of plan when they come to?
What are the goals they're trying to achieve?
Well, I think more and more consumers are looking for value,
what with the cost of living crisis.
But then value can be very subjective, I think to different
people. It doesn't necessarily always
mean the cheapest price. But I think in relation to
obviously, Jamie, you spoke about there the frequency, the
(20:45):
increased spend, I think, but underlying all of that, the data
is the critical part because if you have that, I mean, knowledge
is power. And that's where you can
understand what that customer base looks like, how you need to
market to them. Because the other thing about
loyalty as well, isn't it you, we don't want to be giving away
stuff for free. It's market margin erosion at
the end of the day. So therefore you need to see
(21:07):
those those growth tactics and you're hitting those goals for
whatever strategically you set out for your loyalty plan.
So I think, yeah, obviously the frequency and increase spend,
but underlying that the data is the critical part to get.
That knowledge, money and data basically it's true.
And I think that actual journey for the customer, it has become,
(21:27):
as you said, it's becoming more frequent and people get more
used to these programs. Everyone's got a digital wallet
full of stuff now and they're kind of understanding it.
How hard is it to integrate thatinto your individual journeys?
I'll start with you. You know, we talked a little bit
about, you talked about the forgotten, I suppose we'll call
them the guys that like the physical card and there's a
certain age group maybe that doesn't want to do the digital
thing. You talked a little bit about it
there, but how are you kind of working to keep them, I suppose
(21:48):
involved in the program and makesure they don't get left behind?
Yeah, I think we, so I think thefirst and foremost simplicity of
access is definitely key. So we have one, we won't, we
won't integrate any part of our loyalty program if it doesn't
use the same loyalty card. So we have a single loyalty card
(22:09):
across all of our pubs, all of our managed pubs, and that
loyalty card enables you to redeem points and spend points
against bedrooms and accommodation.
It's the same for food and it's the same for drinks.
So the first thing is it needs to be simple enough that it
works in all places, which isn'talways true of all operators who
run loyalty programs. And I think there are examples
(22:32):
in other sectors such as hotels where you can have quite a big
disconnect where you can spend on the on the rooms, but you
find that the restaurants franchise and it doesn't accept
it. And that creates a disconnect
and also almost a sort of lack of trust and integrity in the
scheme. So I think the first thing is we
make it really simple. We've made the sign up process a
(22:52):
simple simpler and we'll continue to do that.
And we build data over time. So we don't necessarily require
you to fill in an enormously long form with lots and lots of
details. We'll build our understanding of
you as a customer over time. The other information,
questionnaires, surveys, ways you interact with us, which
helps us reduce the pain at the beginning of the process, which
(23:16):
which ultimately helps our sign up journey.
So I think that's a key part. And then making sure that our
sign posting is really simple. Yeah, so it's a really simple
scheme. You get points, those points
turn into pounds and those pounds you can then spend.
With us, we don't have very complicated dynamics like you
can multiply those points or we've had the various debates
(23:38):
about increasing the value of the points at certain times of
the year. But the simplicity of keeping to
the same number of points all year round, the point of sale
stays the same, The messaging from the team stays the same.
We have Buckham Wednesday's, we have some offers that we put on
from time to time which will enhance that.
You get 20% of bedrooms. It's a very simple, stable,
(23:59):
predictable offer. The only thing we change in and
out at different offers at the moment.
We've got a really great offer for loyalty breakfast because
it's a really key day part for us.
We've got great amenities, our pubs are fantastic, they already
serve breakfast and lots of customers staying with us.
So we offer a loyalty breakfast for anyone who'd like to come in
(24:20):
and spend time with us and that's a morning.
So a really key growth for us. But that's really simple.
It just requires you to scan your card and you get the
loyalty breakfast. So simple execution of offer and
gatekeeping of the offers to make sure that they continue to
be as simple as possible. Yeah, I totally agree.
It's just that consistency that leads to predictability.
(24:42):
Do you know what I mean? And I think often the same with
operations in my career when I spent my life in restaurants
that actually when you get predictable, you get really good
people's. Once people know expect what
you're going to do, you get really good.
And I think for you this might be more challenging because
you've got to go through that actually, you know, you have
rooms now as well. So you kind of you have to go
through that whole process. How do you kind of monitor it
from or manage manage their journey, I suppose from them
(25:03):
from their landing on Google allway through to checking out and
keeping them in the in the program is that do you learn
quite a lot from the different brands?
I'm I'm intrigued to think. Yeah, we do.
And as you were talking about simplicity, that was really
interesting because our whole program was built on like
simplicity as one of the pillars.
And I think it's what stands outfor Wyndham Rewards in
particular because we don't havelike dynamic points costs.
(25:23):
It's, you know, we have a fit. This is what it costs for a free
night. That's it.
And it doesn't change for you and you just know.
So I think simplicity is so important.
But yeah, like that user journeygoing all the way from like the
research to after the stay, I think the member discount is the
most obvious first touch point where it's an expectation, but
it doesn't really create much ofA connection with the consumer.
(25:45):
They expect that discount. I don't think that's enough to
have them hooked really to come back.
So we're kind of looking at other places in the journey.
And one thing that we're we're launching this year, which I
think is really cool, is it starts starting in the US, but
I'm hoping we can bring it to Europe where you can order from
our Wyndham app. When you're in the hotel, you
can order your meal from like Applebee's, which is a
(26:08):
restaurant around the corner. It gets delivered free to the
hotel and you get points on thatorder.
That's cool. And it's all done within the
Wyndham app. And so it's kind of integrated.
It's generous, it's easy, and soit's the first time we're doing
that, but I'm hoping we can growthat, you know, different
restaurants, different countries, and I think it'd be
really interesting to see. It is interesting because you're
almost eking into partnerships, almost like a.
(26:29):
Technology type, I do think for loyalty partnerships is really
important because you just need these things to set you apart
that that have these meaningful connections that make you want
to come back to that brand again, because points to redeem
on nights is kind of, you know, everyone's doing it.
You could probably get that anywhere and it's important, but
these other opportunities are really interesting and
(26:52):
compelling and sets you apart. I, I guess we're close to
saturation, not saturation, but it must be challenging out if
you think of us all as consumersfor a minute and not as people
with jobs. But you know, there's a lot of
stuff in my inbox, a lot of stuff in my digital wallet.
It's, it's becoming a bit of a, it's hard, isn't it, to stay
relevant when there's so much noise.
So I think you have to be go think out-of-the-box.
I was going to say, Julian, whenthere's two very different
(27:13):
programmes here, well, you know,in terms of the size of business
or whatever they might be. And when how hard is it for you
as zonal to manage between thosetwo things?
Or how hard is it to help an operator to find their mark or
to kind of play to their brand strengths, even though 1 might
be an independent pub chain or one might be a huge hotel
resort? I mean, I think we can kind of
try and help operators and customers coach them through
(27:35):
that. But I think the point is there's
a lot of uncovering what that brand and what you're messaging
and what you mean to customers as and what you how you want to
be portrayed when you are deploying A loyalty scheme.
And that will obviously vary drastically to whether it's a
small pub chain or whether it's a UK based or a global kind of
(27:57):
restaurant or casual dining situation.
So I think it's all about understanding again, that the
kind of strategic goals of your brand and what you want from
that messaging. I mean, ultimately for us
underneath Lincoln, the tech andthe plumbings and it's very it's
the same, yeah. But I think it's, it's making
sure that the loyalty program that people are putting out
there is, is going to be received well by your customers,
(28:20):
the different demographics that you know that, yeah, there is
nuances within those demographics and how do you
tailor them. And ultimately, again, the data
underneath that is is where you uncover all of that, all of
those little gems. And I totally agree, I meant to
ask, do you have a favorite loyalty program that you use
individually in terms of like something you'll go to everyday?
I mean, mine is Tesco. Obviously I'm a bit sad.
(28:43):
What were you looking to have for?
You know, I, I was actually justthinking it's one of said.
It's not one of said. Favorite, favorite wasn't the
right word. Yeah, yeah.
My most used, yeah, yeah. They all looked at me like, who
is that? Yeah, yeah.
And Phil Gracie staring at me aswell.
So yeah. So actually my Nike, my Nike law
is my favorite one because it's pretty cool.
The night loyalty is very cool. But yeah, I use Tesco frequently
(29:04):
because it I think back to our consistency conversation.
You just know what it's going todo.
Is there? Have you got a favorite one to
use? Regularly, well, I would say
regularly. It's probably got to be retail
actually, from my that's good. Yeah.
Well, from a hospitality perspective, probably.
I would shout out Pizza Express existing customer.
What about you? You've got a thing that's
sitting on you must have something on your phone.
It's quite weird when you ask people because a lot of people
(29:25):
think, but you're probably part of many that use few.
Yeah, I think one of my favourites for gamification is
Littles. Yeah, my team are familiar about
this as well. Why I haven't used it so now
I'm. Intrigued.
The Lidl app has several elementlayers of complexity to it, so
(29:45):
it feels, it feels like it should be complex, right?
But the way they've built the UXmakes it quite simple.
So you get sort of free things when you go in.
So the idea is you open it as you go into the shop, which I'm
terrible at remembering to do, but I like the gamification of
it. So you go in, it looks at what
you put previously, it gives youa free sort of of some
(30:09):
description often very personalized on something you've
bought before and maybe you're out of frequency of buying.
And I wonder whether there is anelement of daypart and stock
management for that as well. I would I would suggest there
probably. Is that they love you.
I don't do. That because quite often bakery
bakery items appear later in theday, which sort of suggests they
(30:32):
know they need to get rid of them.
But I'm not sure. I mean it would be smart.
No, no, you're right. They.
Weren't doing that. And then there's another spend
element as well. So you'll then get a discount
based upon your total accumulated spend within a 30
day period, which I also think is a sort of instant
gratification. You can get something while
you're there and then this sort of long term build up over the
course of a month. And then I don't know what the
(30:54):
splits are, but I think if you spend sort of 200 lbs, you get
10% off your next shot. So it's fairly meaningful in
terms of the actual discount somebody will get.
But I like the fact it's some gratification while you're there
and then. I think that's a key part, isn't
it? Being able to give someone, I
mean, Carluccio's when I was there back in the day, used to
have to make it was before the digital world.
We had our welcome cards on the table.
(31:15):
So you'd fill out a welcome cardand you'd get a free bottle of
red or white wine house wine there and then on the, on the
night. But we'd, I mean, we used to
have to send these bags full of postcards to head office with
all like thousands of these posts because everyone loved it,
right? And we partnered with a company
called Anatria. I think we got a massive
discount on the wine. So they were.
So everyone was winning. And it was possibly one of the
best programs we've ever seen because we had 100 sites at one
point delivering those 2000 cards a week from every site.
(31:38):
So yeah, really cover. What about you?
I mean, it's a classic, but I dolike the BA Executive Club
because I mean, I think they're probably one of the early ones.
And I love because the the different tiers within it are
quite important in terms of the benefits you get.
And so like seeing how much I'vegot to go until I get to that.
Did you travel much today? Are you much in the States?
Or I used to travel a lot more earlier in my career.
(31:59):
And as we've grown, we've got more people in offices around,
so don't have to travel. To be honest, it works out quite
well now. But I have started to see my,
my, my tears go back down, down the ladder.
But it was just I, it was just, you know, I think they must have
put a lot of money and thought into it and it just worked
really well. I know a lot of people have a
love hate relationship with thatkind of thing.
But yeah, I've I've used it a lot and I found it.
(32:20):
Useful. I think the airlines really set
the standard and they feel kind of understanding what the
travellers do, what the customers do, forget they're a
traveller for a minute, what thecustomer is doing and how
they've behaved and rewards on upon that, which was they were
very good. And now I feel bad about my
Tesco thing. Literally as you've been
talking, thinking, think of something else quick.
I just can't. But little took me down so it's
fine. So it's been really interesting
(32:43):
chat to you guys, but I'd love to know what 1 trend you think's
coming, I suppose in terms of loyalty or bringing someone
back, whatever you want to call it.
Is there something interesting coming down the road that we
don't know about or that you might know about or what you'd
like to see? Start with you over there,
Jamie. I think we've talked a lot about
use of data, but I think very few people certainly in casual
(33:04):
dining and pub sector are using the data that's available or
that they're collecting. And if you think about customer
personas, segmentation of customers over time,
historically you would have looked at a sample size.
So you'd go and do a market research questionnaire or you
would go and take a sample of data from Experian or someone
(33:24):
like that or a market research agency.
You'd use that sample to then say, well, how many of those
customers spend maybe with some credit card data overlay.
Yeah, but your sample size wouldbe relatively small and you'd
come out with some segments of customers and a little bit like
Amy alluded to earlier, the opportunity to use machine
learning and data analytics and more advanced of AI techniques
(33:46):
to be able to do what we could only dream of doing 10 years ago
because computing power just wasn't there.
I. Was going to say you have a data
team and I don't. Do you have a data?
It's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.
So we've, we've, we've really invested in data over the last
18 months and we have a data team who are able to take all of
(34:07):
those 22% of all of those transactions that we have in
loyalty and build. Well, I won't get into the
geekery of it. K means cluster models and
various techniques to be able toanalyze how customers behave.
We break it into 7 personas or segments of how customers behave
and we can see daily how those customers behave and move over
(34:29):
time. And I think the big change is
coming through how cost effective that is to do now.
So business wouldn't have had the scale to be able to invest
in. That's what I'm saying for
people listening in and you're just thinking how do I not
compete? But how do I get to that point?
And the answer is going to be AIright into the machine learning
(34:49):
the way that it does. Yeah, and same question.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard not to talk about AI like that.
You. Have to do it.
It's like a given on every podcast.
I know. I try and get as far as I can
without talking about it. But I know, I mean, it's it's a
given to I'll park AI and I think one of the things I'm most
excited about, and we talked about it at the start of the
podcast and actually all throughis just how mainstream it's
(35:09):
getting and opening the door to lots of new customers that I
was. I was at a festival this weekend
and the festival had an app and the app had a loyalty scheme.
And like, you know, three years ago you wouldn't no, wouldn't
have thought so, but it was it worked really well.
The technology was amazing. I was redeeming at the festival
whilst I was there. And I thought, wow, like all of
these people just think, don't think twice about getting the
(35:31):
app out, engaging with it. And so I think for us that
really opens up a lot more because we're, you know, our
hotels are mid scale economy getting it into a bit of upscale
and there's just a huge base of people there who haven't really
engaged with points and programsin the past, but they're getting
more into it. And I just think it really puts
(35:52):
a lot of opportunity there for us to tap into them and, and,
and get them using the app and, and engaging with us.
So I'm excited to see the growththat we're going to get from
that base that we've not been able to really penetrate before.
It's always been, you know, the business travellers who who live
for points. But yeah, I know, I know there's
whole, there's whole forums of people discussing where they can
(36:14):
get the points, which is great and we love them, but they.
Need to go out more. I know they don't get more
points. Yeah.
And I think some of the researchthat we've done absolutely backs
up that, yeah, 90% of people arenow open to joining loads of
programs. I think that's why you're seeing
so much change like that for us because there is that openness.
And I think we kind of touched on it before and I suppose it's
members only pricing it talks about to the retail element that
(36:38):
we've mentioned as that's certainly something that we see
as kind of an upcoming trend andchange.
But it can be love it or loathe it and I guess.
Yeah, I guess it's a risk as well, right?
Because the more people who wantto participate means that
participation means that actually the playing field needs
to be. Yeah.
You have to stand. Out needs to deliver, otherwise
you're going to get people at a festival who have engaged with
the Lords, programmer.com, for instance, Go there expecting the
(37:00):
same experience, Then don't go alittle and don't get the same
experience and then disappoint and then detract.
They turn to detractors, not advocates.
So I didn't ask you, did you? Is this something you see coming
down the road or were you on thesame?
Well, yeah, I, I was just saying, I think we've seen
there's like 49% increase in like members only prices.
So I think that's definitely a trend that we are seeing as
picking up. But I think you just need to be
careful as to who, what demographic you've got within
(37:22):
your customer reason, whether that is a pull or a push factor
because yeah, some people are not so much of a fan of it.
No, it's true placing, but I think people want to belong to
some. It's been going forever, right?
When I was a kid, there was obviously this football club.
Everyone follows a club or a band or whatever it might be,
but I think it's that I think tapping into people's psyche
where they really understand that they want to belong to
something but feel and it feels seamless is obviously a root to
(37:44):
success. But easier said than done, I'm
sure. But look, thank you very much
for coming and seeing us all. I appreciate your time.
Before we let you go, if people have listened to you and
thought, oh, that's quite interesting, I'd like to know
more. Can they contact you?
Is there any way that the safestway they can find you?
Yeah, easiest find me on LinkedIn.
Yeah, go for it, I'll be there. Same.
Same. Thing no one's given out their
phone number here. And Gillian?
Yeah, LinkedIn, yeah. There you go.
(38:06):
Look, thank you very much for listening everyone.
That was Tech and Toast podcast with our partners Zonal and
we'll see you all next week. Thank you.
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