October 9, 2025 • 31 mins
Business in Better Shape
Presented by Tech on Toast and Square
This series, Business in Better Shape, was born from new research by Tech on Toast and Square — The Long-Term Case for Smarter Tech Investment.
We spoke to more than 150 hospitality leaders across the UK, uncovering an industry stuck between ambition and hesitation.
The data showed that while most operators see technology as essential to their future, only 18% would currently recommend their existing systems, and a striking 94% only adopt new tech when absolutely necessary. Fear of disruption, complex integrations, and a lack of vendor support are holding progress back.
That insight inspired this series — real conversations with operators who are finding ways to move forward, simplify, and modernise without losing what makes hospitality human.
🎙️ Hosted by Chris Fletcher, Founder & CEO, Tech on Toast
In this first episode, Chris talks with Maria McCann, Operations Director at Blacklock, about fear of change, leading people through transformation, and how curiosity and courage can help hospitality get into better shape.
Maria’s career spans Hard Rock Café, Shake Shack, Living Ventures, and now Blacklock, where she’s helping scale one of London’s most characterful restaurant brands without losing its soul.
Fear of Change in Hospitality – Why operators stick to the familiar and how to shift from fear to curiosity.
Leading People Through Change – The importance of knowing your team, listening first, and adapting your leadership style.
Tech & Adoption – From jargon to real impact; why successful rollouts depend on staff inclusion and smooth communication.
The Vendor–Operator Relationship – How tech companies should approach operators: do your homework, personalise, and support after the sale.
Innovation vs. Disruption – Practical examples where tech made life easier (sentiment analysis, AI-driven guest feedback) vs. areas still crying out for disruption (stock-taking).
🥩 Blacklock’s Identity – A modern British chop house, famous for roasts, chops, and sharing culture.
🎓 Career Path – From studying dietetics to falling in love with hospitality via Hard Rock, then on to Shake Shack and now Blacklock.
😨 Why We Fear Change – Hospitality people are problem solvers who learn from crises — so change is often associated with past mistakes.
💬 Communication Platforms – When Meta shut down Workplace, Blacklock had to pivot fast without losing team connection.
🤖 Tech Adoption – The secret is listening to staff frustrations first, then finding solutions to those exact pain points.
📊 Sentiment Analysis – A “quiet revolution” for guest feedback, giving operators clarity without the overwhelm.
🚴 Personal Challenge – Maria is training for a 400km charity cycle in Cuba with the hospitality community, despite being scared of bikes!
✅ Change feels less scary when staff are consulted and informed, not just handed new systems.
✅ The best innovations are those that make life easier quietly, not disruptively.
✅ Tech vendors: know the brand, personalise the pitch, and back up your product with real support.
✅ Embrace the philosophy of “calculated risk” — small tests, feedback loops, and mistakes well handled.
🍽️ Dine at Blacklock
💼 Follow Maria McCann on LinkedIn
This series is powered by Square, helping hospitality operators put their business in better shape through connected commerce, payments, and restaurant technology.
Learn more at squareup.com/gb/en/hospitality.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Business in Better Shape, where we take hospitality
out of the boardroom and onto shift.
Let's get into IT Business in Better Shape.
Powered by Square and brought toyou by Tech on Toast.
In our first episode, we're diving into the disruption,
(00:23):
delusion, why we steal, fear, change.
Joining us today is Maria McCann, Operations Director at
Blacklock, the much loved chop specialist known for legendary
Sunday roast, cosy basements andplates that were made for
sharing. Maria knows first hand what it
takes to run a growing group without losing the heart of what
makes Blacklock special. From building culture across
multiple sites to tackling the industry's fear of change,
(00:46):
welcome to Techno's podcast. Today we're joined by, I'm going
to say a good friend because I've seen you a few times in our
WhatsApp group, but we haven't met in person.
So meet for the first time. Marie McCann, how are you?
Great. Lovely to meet you.
No, you're welcome. And today we can talk about
fearing change. You've got kids, haven't you?
I do. I have one, Yeah.
And I am now the most chilled out person you'll ever meet in
work compared to what I was before.
(01:07):
Because nothing stresses you more than a 10 year old not
being able to put shoes on. 100%that's right.
There's a sketch, I think I forget the I forget the comedian
now, who does a talks about trying to leave the house before
you have kids versus when you have kids.
Yeah, it's it's absolutely crazy.
So and I think the problem with hostility over the years has
always been, for me anyway, whathappened in it.
Change is a problem because people just get stuck in their
(01:29):
ways. We're quite as an industry.
I think we're quite like that. We're kind of like what we've
always done. So we don't like to address it.
So just before we kind of get into kind of talking about
change, tell us a little bit about you and where you work and
what you do. So I actually started out to
study to be a dietitian so from Ireland.
Accent doesn't give it away or anything.
It's not that strong. That's good after a couple of
(01:52):
beers get so we might come out and then moved to Scotland.
Studied to be a dietitian, was working in hospitality at the
same time to fund my education and you.
I clearly love food and beverage, knew I love people,
but hospitality, working on uni completely changed my view on my
career. And it wasn't just to pay your
(02:13):
way, it was there and I'm actually, I really enjoy this
and I could, I could maybe make a career out of this.
I worked for similar to you at one point in your life, Hard
Rock Cafe for five years. Did you?
I was Hard Rock, Edinburgh for five years.
So I was Hard Rock and the training and the passion, as you
all know very well that went into Hard Rock.
That's brand new. I ended up studying more for
(02:37):
menu changes in Hard Rock than some of my exams in uni and I
thought you'll be fine. And I just was passionately in
love with the culture and how people can come together all
around the world. I then travelled the fabulous
day of Paulo in his day told me that never to come back because
(02:57):
I had a career to get to enjoy the world and unless I was going
into my career to not come back to Hard Rock because he wanted
to see me really successful as adietitian.
But throughout Hard Rock I got to help with their allergens
because it wasn't law then didn't come in until 2011.
So there was still a lot of foodand passion, but it was that
versatility you could have that your degree on the side was
(03:19):
actually helping the business and the business you were
working in was also helping yourpractice and your degree and how
you were able to deal with people.
I travelled the world, fell in love with food and beverage even
more and came back. Was applying for jobs as a
dietitian and got a job with Living Ventures as a let's just
do this on the side until something comes through and very
(03:40):
quickly became AGM of living room.
And so we did. Then the applications for
dietitians slowly stopped and I then got a Living Ventures got
sold on and I got a call from the company that run Shake Shack
and saying look, we're open in the UK, would you consider a
(04:01):
move to London? And I went, I love setting the
table, I love Danny Meyer. This seems great.
Absolutely. So off I went, did some training
in Dubai, moved to London to do 8 years of a burger chain that
is now globally recognized. And then very serendipitous at
the time, but back in 2013 was at an event in Hawksmoor.
(04:23):
Danny Meyer was speaking, GordonCare was at that talk.
We didn't meet at the time, but years later through Richard
Turner, we became friends. We did a lot of stuff together
during COVID and delivery only. And then when that we came out
of COVID or just before coming out of COVID, was lucky enough
to join the Blacklock team full time.
(04:43):
So now 3 1/2 years on as obstructor.
And tell us a bit about Blacklock.
For people who don't know what they do, what kind of what kind
of restaurant is it? Yeah.
So Blacklock is a traditional British chop house.
So the chop house was very famous back in the day and then
disappeared and started making abit of a comeback.
It is, you know, what people would consider in America as a
traditional steakhouse. But a chop house is British and
(05:06):
on the bone, and it is all thosedelicious cuts of meat on the
bone and all the treatments thatgo along with.
It never good to talk about black house before lunch.
Black a lot. Sorry, black a lot before lunch.
I'm starving. And, and and I think you've
probably seen a bit of this, butlike they use the phrase
disruption and hostility and often it comes with a bit of
trepidation kind of thing. Why, why do you think there's
still resistance, I suppose around kind of change our
(05:29):
energy, whether it's changing a menu or whether it's changing
someone's shift. But why do you think there's
still a bit of fear around that?I think if you look at the
personality types that work in hospitality, they are very
comfortable in the known. They have lived through things
going wrong and they've learned from it.
So every time they've had to do some form of change, it's
usually because something's gonewrong.
(05:51):
And therefore they they learn from that experience.
So it develops that fear of let's not do change because
anytime they've had to do changebefore, it's because something's
gone wrong and they get really comfy in the known and they get
comfy in this has happened to mebefore.
Therefore I'll do this and I'll do this as soon as you put the
as much as we are very outgoing people in the industry, we all
(06:11):
also talk to each other. So if you don't have the answer,
you tend to go to somebody else.Very similar to the WhatsApp
that we all have. You know, it's who in the
industry does know if we don't know.
And then when change comes alongthat is fully unknown, some tech
things that have come along and nobody knows.
There's not even someone to ask.So I think it's more that I
(06:32):
haven't lived it before, I haven't done it.
I need to have the answer for myteam or somebody needs to have
the answer for somebody else. Because we're problem solvers.
I mean, I think that's the problem sometimes in the
industry that actually we are, we make stuff happen, you know?
And if you're not that person that has the answer, oh, it's
easier just not to do that. And I suppose and what's the
biggest blocker, because you're managing, you've managed I
suppose of quite a few OPS teamsnow, what's the biggest blocker?
(06:54):
I suppose when you're dealing with change rather than
obviously you've talked about personality type.
But other other, if I used to find, used to have a girl at
Hard Rock called Shorty. I don't know if you ever met
her, but she was in Birmingham and everyone had a Shorty in
their business. Shorty was she was short, but
she worked in Birmingham and shehad the ability to make a shift
or break a shift depending on her mood swing.
And I don't know if that I, I used to find those personalities
(07:17):
across businesses were always one blocker.
But what? What do you think?
I think the most important skillyou can ever do in hospitality
is get to know your person. So if you know what it is that
is causing those mood swings or is causing that fear, or you
know, it's, it's usually nothingto do with work.
Let's be honest. It's usually something else
going on. If you know enough about your
(07:39):
people, you can get them comfortable with you.
And therefore the change that's coming or the shift that's
coming or whatever might be happening, if you go carbon
copy, this is the only way to manage.
And this is my leadership cell. You're gonna, you're gonna get
people that really don't want towork with you.
And with you is the really important bit of that.
It's not for you, it's with you.So you're always going to have
different personality types, andwe need that because if we were
(08:02):
all the real outgoing bursts of energy, nobody get anything done
we do need. Sounds like a toast we do.
Need some of the really organized, structured if you do
insights. We need those Blues to go into
the detail. We can't all be sunshine yellow
or the Reds because we'd never Dr. hospitality businesses.
But the most important bit is getting to know them and taking
(08:23):
time to understand what it is that makes them tick or makes
them energized or creates fear. And what about tech
specifically? So if AI we've been talking
about, but together recently when something new like that is
coming along, so it's not a pause or it's not a workforce
manager thing, it's a brand new bit of tech.
How does that, how do you guys deal with that?
(08:43):
Because you, like you said, you don't have that experience of
knowing what that does or is howdo you guys manage that process?
Is it sometimes the jargon that scares people like tech stack or
whatever AI, whatever it is? What are the biggest blockers
there? I think if you were to go back a
year, I think Jargon probably would have been it maybe a bit
more. I think the more podcasts like
this, the, you know, I think it was in partnership with bills
(09:06):
that was created where that had all of the, you know, the
descriptions. And it's almost like a glossary
for tech that people can read and they're not afraid to then
go, oh, that's what that means. I think the more live examples
of putting it into practice has helped and broken down that fear
of digitization or tech stack or, you know, data reservoirs or
warehouses or whatever it might be.
(09:27):
But I think there is there's still a level of there's so much
out there. So rather than trying to listen
to everyone, it goes back to team first, listen to your team.
What do they do in every single day that really annoys them.
What has taken up all their time?
And they are not going to have the answers.
They're not going to know what the solution is, but they are
(09:50):
going to know what takes them five hours in a Monday.
That's taking the live service. What is it that they repeatedly
do that repeatedly goes wrong that really annoys them.
And you know that then could be the make or break of how good
well that shift goes. And if you've got 3 or 4
restaurants also in the same thing, that's then your problem.
And that's then when you go out looking for a solution, rather
(10:10):
than 20 solutions coming to you go.
And we're great at this. Make us work in your business.
Yeah, square peg, round hole. Yeah.
And what about, I suppose, because the biggest thing is
about adoption, I suppose when you find that right solution
that you've chosen around the team, how do you make that work?
How do you get by? And I suppose I suppose again
similar to a new menu or something about how do you get
the team to follow you? I think it's first of all making
(10:32):
sure that you're doing somethingthat they've originally
initially raised as potential problem or and it's a solution
for them. And then the other key bit is
making sure that you include them along the way.
Now, it's not necessarily makingthem responsible because they've
already got a hell of a lot of stuff to do and they want to get
involved, but they do want to beinformed and they want to know
(10:53):
what's going on each stage of the process.
So not responsible, but definitely informed and
potentially on certain stages consulted.
And if they have a little bit ofit, it goes to launch time.
And it isn't a Oh my God, this is new.
What are we doing? Where is this come from?
It's instead, it's a finally, it's here, we get to launch and
there's an excitement. If you do it all in the
background without explaining things along the way, they just
(11:15):
get slapped in the face with something new and don't want to
do it. I think it's and when I speak to
the tech guys, sometimes, you know, you have like the a
Saturday 510 shift. So someone who only works every
Saturday because they've got university, they've got kids,
whatever they're doing in their life, right?
That's they, those people run the industry and it's must be, I
find it must be those are the people we need to sorry, look,
look after because they must come in right on a Saturday.
(11:36):
What there's a new pause or there's a new QR code at the
table or something. And they're just like, what?
What? Yeah.
And I think that must be super hard to manage for you guys
because you also have to accommodate them as well as your
full time as everyone else. Is that something that you kind
of give responsibility to the general manager to look after to
make sure look incorporate the whole team when you're rolling
out change? I think twofold.
(11:56):
I think a lot of the things thatare change are usually to make
the managers lives easier and the team's life easier.
So they shouldn't really notice that it's changed.
It should be smooth enough for them to just go, that was
quicker and then it's easier forthem.
And the other bit is then yes, it relies the general managers.
Yes, there's a lot of briefings,but also there's always a few
(12:20):
people in each restaurant, no matter where you go, no matter
what industry you're in, that are really passionate about
whatever you're doing and they're the voice on the ground
now, whether that be a Friday, Saturday, part time person or a
full time head waiter, You know,if you're doing content
creation, you're always going toget someone who's amazing on
Instagram and wants to get involved.
You just didn't know. Same with tech potentially like
(12:42):
chalkboards for us in the restaurant.
Some people hate doing handwriting.
There's some artists in our restaurants that are fabulous
and love it. So it goes back always to
getting to know your people because if you have a couple of
waiters, bartenders, chefs that are secretly passionate in the
background and they can help create some stuff alongside it
there then your voice in the restaurant without you being a
solo voice in your company. You know, we've got a head chef
(13:04):
in shortage who absolutely lovesChatGPT creating like different
pictures and it's hilarious, buthe also does like a loads of
slow videos of like Sunday cooking for team engagement.
We're about to launch our digital video learning and he's
now a huge part of that project because something he's
passionately about and thereforethe team are all involved and
(13:25):
it's in a friendly face. So the videos that we're
creating will all be our team and you learn more through quick
videos, but then also with people you recognize because
you're going to pay more attention.
Yeah, because you care more. Always goes back to who in your
team can you get involved because then they will roll it
out with you. Of that.
And what about have you got an example of a time, I suppose,
(13:46):
when you've had to, you've rolled something out.
It doesn't have to be attacked, but something you've put out and
gone, oh God, that didn't work, and then RIP it out again.
Maybe not a black lot, but in your career at some point.
Yeah, I'm I think it was twofold.
And maybe not RIP it out completely.
We did a test run of kiosks and shake shake and it was more of a
needs must because it was it wasnew and it was coming up and we
(14:08):
did launch it and we trialled itand then we did RIP it up and
start again, but have now launched it everywhere.
So it was actually maybe this isn't the right time or fit for
purpose. But I think the other one is the
ones that are forced upon you, You know, sometimes you get
really reliant on a tech or a system or a product and you need
to remember that they are all outsourced.
So when they go away, that change happens.
(14:30):
So the big one for a lot of hospitality companies right now
around communication was workplace going away.
We didn't have that 6. 600,000 users?
I don't know was it 6,000,000? I can't remember about a lot of
people in hostile to using it. And then all of a sudden, you
know, your, your business plan of what are you doing in 2025
becomes of finding a new communication platforms that 300
staff use on a daily basis. That the chat function.
(14:52):
We got rid of WhatsApp and then,Oh no, people are chefs are
going to go back to using WhatsApp because it's change and
it's something different. So sometimes it isn't because
it's gone wrong. It's because something's been
thrown at you and you need to work around it.
And I think workplace going awaywas that challenge for us.
And how do we, how do we move without dropping?
Because we'd got really good at communication without having to
(15:14):
use WhatsApp. And then it was that, oh, it's
different. And how, how have your team
take, have you done that change yet?
Are you in the middle of it? And how's it been bringing them
based on the adoption question as well, I suppose, how's it
been bringing them over from that?
Because it is a big change, isn't it?
Because they quite intuitively will just be talking every day
through knowing this is work. Then all of a sudden it changes.
All in all, it went really, really well and it was really
(15:35):
seamless. We were lucky that we were able
to keep our workplace data and history so we can still access
that on the new platform, so we can access all of our old chats
and all of our own posts, etcetera.
So nothing was lost and I think that made that process quite
seamless. There was a bit of a you know,
one kitchen in particular, and Iwon't name names just in case.
(15:56):
They might be listening. But they instantly went back to
WhatsApp, I fear, and that took a few months for us to win out
of where they would WhatsApp somebody.
And I'd then reply and go, I'll respond, but on the new
platform. And that's now where no one is
using WhatsApp again. So there was of course a slight
dip and but being able to keep your old data, it was the key
(16:19):
for it being quite seamless for us, yeah.
I think that's K isn't it that because it's not like you said
before, I haven't experienced it, but they have, you know, so
it's kind of that seamless, seamless journey.
What about a bit of tech innovation that that had an
impact, a big impact, but wasn'tdisruptive, I suppose as because
you can have you can change things really simply right, like
AI think will be one of these. It'll be one of these things
that you can put in and not likenot open heart surgery, I
(16:42):
suppose. Have you had an example of that?
I think it's a big one for me and I think Prithvi thinks I'm
on just on Commission for him. I.
Generally AM. Sentiment has really changed.
You know, everything from what we do around board table and
(17:02):
business planning and executive level strategic planning to
day-to-day training to individual restaurants, how they
handle guests. Guest for us is such an
emotional topic. You know, you get multiple
emails from Google, OpenTable, whatever your reservations
platform are. You then read it yourself on the
platform. I was finding that there might
(17:23):
have been one complaint, but I was seeing it come through on
Google. I was seeing it come through in
an open table summary. I was seeing it come through in
a weekly summary. I might have been seeing that
same complaints five times in a week and thought stop
everything, this is the end of the world.
If that's happening five times in Covent Garden, it must be
happening everywhere. And actually it wasn't.
And it was just a really emotive, emotional topic for us
(17:45):
and we were, you know, dropping what the exec head chef was
doing and he'll redistributing his time to go and find out what
on earth is going on on a Sundaywith the potatoes.
Actually there was nothing goingon and it was 1 error and things
happen. But being able to implement
sentiment has then give us one data to be able to see genuinely
(18:06):
what are the trends. It's been able to pull out the
sentiment of each of the reviews.
You know, not all reviews are glowing.
There might be a really, really great review and one tiny little
bit of constructive feedback. And one of our core values is
power of 1%. We say, how do we improve just
that tiny little bit each day oreach month or each year?
And sentiment has helped us do that using data, but without
(18:28):
having to do anything differently.
It is being created for us and we are now then bringing in that
response. How do we create a black lock
tone of voice to help our managers when they are great
reviews, not have to manually review to everything?
They can create a couple of little annual responses in our
tone of voice and an I built with the AI part of of that
(18:49):
response. And then they still do the ones
and twos and three stars or any of the really potentially ones
that need a phone call. So still old school hospitality.
So we've managed to merge the platform into day-to-day life
seamlessly and it has really added value.
Very cool. I agree.
I think his platform's insane. We don't get paid for him.
He pays you on the marketplace. And when you think about
(19:10):
operators being pitched to daily, you mentioned it before
about firstly, you're talking tothe team, you know, understand
what what is our issue? How do we fix it?
Rather than someone hitting you over the head, how, how should
vendors actually approach you from, because it's, it's
interesting, right? Because I think that I had, I
think Tommy from Honestberg was on the podcast ages ago.
Yeah. And he, he said, I just want to
leave a list now for anyone, anyone who's listening about
(19:30):
vendors. He said, I just want to tell you
how you should approach this. But what's your opinion?
Because obviously you get spammed on LinkedIn properly or
wherever, or maybe in person events.
I don't know. How do people approach you?
I think the first key one is getthe brand's name right.
You know you might have. Like when I said what did I say
before black? I'm going to edit this bit, but
whatever I said. But whenever you get you get
random like spam emails and you know they'll they'll have the
(19:53):
wrong name or they'll see previously I was at Shake Shack.
So they'll be like, Oh, we see that you're opposite Shake
Shack. No, I'm not anymore, but.
I think this is where AI goes wrong, right?
Yeah, but I think that if you are going to do it, make sure
you know the brand. I think the same way hospitality
venues are really good understanding what they are
about and they have a brand and they have a product and they
(20:14):
have a team and they have a ethos.
Tech companies should have the same and instead of going mass
market, handpick the brands thatyou know your product
potentially could work with. Know a bit about the brand, go
in and eat in the brand, speak to the teams, do a bit of
research, and then do a personalized approach that shows
(20:36):
you that you genuinely think your product would match that
brand. If you're just trying to mass
market a product because it's a sales pitch, no one's no one's
going to. I think we're the worst industry
to do that too, right? Because we, like you said, we're
all like you talked about the guests, then you've actually got
a complaint. I remember we used to have in
college as a site contact form. It was called.
If you've got a site contact form, and you know the fear, you
can tell already. Our Sarah Murray was my boss.
(20:58):
Oh, my God, The minute that dropped in my box, I didn't even
look if it was positive because it probably wasn't.
Yeah, you were. That was your day over like a
mystery diner. Like because we care.
You just see the percentage and then you read the review book.
You just feel sick and the poor GM is probably feeling 10 times
worse than you are. But you're right.
And I think that that the approach of the spamming and I
know they're hyper invested companies are on a path to
(21:18):
selling, but it doesn't matter to us.
We don't care. So I, I think it's interesting
and out of interest, pretty, didhe give you his little pack?
Did he give you a little folder of that?
Because normally I've seen him with little folders under his
arm and he'd basically does a comparison for you and your
nearby brands that you compete. With Yeah, he did it all
digitally. I did it all pack.
But he did. And I love the ability for us to
(21:38):
be introed, have a quick look. What are you after?
And then that proper first call.He'd set up the platform.
Yeah, done. Like he'd done it.
He'd done his research. He checked what we are.
He had a few suggested competitors.
He had, you know, gone back and pulled all of our data.
He'd asked me for, you know, onelogin to our OpenTable so he
could show me what the platform would look like.
(21:59):
And he gave us a trial of it andsaid, look here, test it for a
bit, have a look, see what you think.
Does this work for you? And then the wrap around care.
The other big thing that probably annoys most hospitality
venues more than anything is youget sold the dream from a car
salesman and then all the parts fall off and there's no MOT in
the wind and then they just go. So if you're going to really
(22:22):
sell a product and you're part of your product being there to
back it up. The other great thing about
sentiment is if something does go wrong, you've got any
questions, you know, you contactthem, they're back in touch with
you that day or the next day with no problem.
This is what we're doing about it.
Yeah, he doesn't mess around. And I think that's so true.
I think we were talking, I thinkin the research actually support
was number 2. I think in the most important
(22:43):
thing to operate is actually we don't even mind if your product
breaks a bit as long as you're there to help us.
That's all we care about becausewe are fixers.
We know what we're doing. That's that's great.
And if you're going going to move from fear to curiosity and
OPS teams, what, what's the shift in leadership that has to
happen, I suppose to help do that to kind of move them along
that process? I think if there's a few things
(23:04):
launched that they show that they've been listened to and
it's worked, that will then get,oh, OK, this is good.
I think there's also one, a few other people have done it.
So, you know, having it's reallyinteresting because as an
industry we want to have restaurants that are slightly
different. We all want to have that unique
(23:25):
selling point, but bizarrely, nobody wants to be different.
So you don't want to be the test, you don't want to be the
Guinea pig. So it's trying to find that fine
balance of being the restaurant that's unique and individual and
has that that unique USP and that's slightly different, but
the people that don't want to betreated as different.
So when you're looking at tech, it's trying to find that
balance. And I think as soon as one or
two people who you trust or you look to in the industry have
(23:47):
done a version of it and then they've got a few results, then
that curiosity will grow and grow.
It just takes one or two or three key people in the industry
to take that leap, first of all.And sometimes it's like this,
it's talking about it to get theword out there to increase
curiosity. And there will be a lot of
(24:07):
operators out there that are curious, but they might be
getting pushed back in boardrooms because it's the
unknown and they don't want to have the financial risk or the
fear of what if it all goes wrong.
So I think there is that twofoldof take a little bit of
calculated risk, but also talk to your peers on what they're
doing and then get sort of that combined voice in the industry
(24:28):
to help others want to do the same.
That's a great piece of advice. And what advice on advice, What
advice would you give to AGM or OPS manager who wants to try, I
suppose something new, I suppose, seems what you just
said. So they're kind of stuck in a
rut and they're thinking they'redoing it next door.
I'm losing employees to another company that does it well.
What is the first step I supposeover that to sort of say, is it
similar to what you just said then?
(24:48):
Yeah, I think there's a big difference between, you know, we
talk about fear of effing up cares that I don't swear, but
it's very well managed. We talk about FOFU quite a lot.
So not not having that fear of of doing it wrong, doing your
research to have enough calculated risk.
So put a lot of work into looking at what is it, what is
(25:11):
the potential root cause, what might happen.
But there's only so much research you can do until you've
tested it in practice. So I think the bit that we are
great at in industry is we do a lot of research.
We look at what might happen, the pros and the cons, but then
do a small test. I think the only way that you're
going to get over that fear of doing something new is to test
it. You know, Danny Meyer and I
(25:33):
mentioned already how much I love Sat in the Table.
He has a whole chapter in his book about the road to success
being paved with mistakes well handled.
Things have to go wrong for themto go right.
That's what the industry is built on in my opinion.
I mean, you work for Hard Rock, right?
And I'm the old mantras, their level serve will take time to be
kind and all, all the mantras that we used to which I still
trot out, I'm sure you do today.I I think are born out of that,
(25:56):
are born out of people messing up and that place messed up more
now anyone know, right. But we got away with it with a
smile and a kind of like, hey ho, we'll do that the next time.
And we did. And we always excel.
So I do think it's built on that.
And I think from the tech side of things, actually from the
vendors they want to do, it's not, they don't care about
selling. They want to demo and that's
because if they, you already believe in your.
(26:16):
So back to the car analogy. If you really think your car's
the best car on the on the courtyard, if someone has a go
in it, you're probably going to sell it.
Yeah. So I think, yeah.
So I think there's a 2 fold thing there that we want more
operators to say, yeah, we'll doa demo.
Let's try in a safe tested environment, give it a go.
And then if we don't see what you said, we'd see then you can
pack your bags on your way. Exactly.
And I think that goes for everything.
(26:37):
I think you, you know, do your research, look at what might go
wrong. So there is an element of
planning as much as you can ahead.
And that might be for GM's dealing with people, you know,
have those open conversations, talk, figure out what might go
wrong, but then take a bit of a risk, you know, do a one or two
test in a location or with a product or whatever it might be.
(26:59):
And then give it enough time as well.
So there is also that it didn't work within a week.
Let's pull it. You do need a little bit of time
to see if the test works and then learn from the test.
And that's in my eyes, the best way.
For us. It's chops and chips, right?
It's really, I know, is that simplicity of it.
(27:19):
For Shake Shack, it was burgers and chips, right?
So at the end of the day, we're here but giving people great
experiences and great food so wecan have that little allowance
of do it with a smile. You get the forgiveness if
something does go wrong because we're very good at dealing with
what stuff does go wrong, so I would encourage people to take
(27:41):
calculated risks a little bit more often.
Love that they'll all be on the phone to you when that goes
wrong. I know I'm careful what I say
whenever all my head chefs is ripping up menu make.
Tomorrow, we don't care. Everything's done on AI and, and
I suppose finally, what's the one thing that hasn't happened
that you'd like to see happen? A disruptions don't have to be
technology. It could be anything.
It's kind of an open book here for you, But what, what's the
one thing you'd like to see disrupt hostility a little bit.
(28:02):
I don't love that word, but kindof mix it, mess it up a little
bit and kind of put us in a in aplace where we're doing better
in one particular. I think from a tech point of
view, stock takes are my biggestbug there and I think it
probably has been forever and I would just love a system to come
and do it all for. You what are what are the things
that I mean, I kind of know because I spent 25 years doing
(28:24):
them. But, and I guess I I think it's
the one bit that hasn't changed.Yeah, I agree and.
And it makes me really sad. And I think it's because
there's, you know, workforce management is within reason.
Yeah, it is people, time and attendance, HR, working time,
regulations, availability, shiftpatterns, skill sets.
(28:44):
Stock can be, if it's just bar stock, it's literally bottle to
bottle. But there's just so many
variables between different batches and products and
suppliers that I think no matterwho tries to tackle it, they get
so far really well and then theyjust give up.
Yeah, SK use or whatever or whatever you call them in
hostility and in college shows had 890 lines of different pack
(29:08):
sizes and different because we had the daily the shelf and book
restaurant. I've got it and yeah.
And getting a true number is a achallenge around for people like
you who need to report on that. Yeah, it's very difficult.
And it goes back to initially when we said tech or change, the
team shouldn't feel it. It should just be something that
makes their lives easier. And I think that in the long
run, if if our stocks for our head chefs and our group bar
(29:32):
managers and our head bartenders, they can get
seamless, that's something that would make.
Their how much time does it takeyou think 2 is it still two days
a week, probably out, not full days, but still two days.
They're focused on stock and andmaybe longer if there's issues.
Pretty much, yeah. So it's definitely a whole day,
yeah, for both departments. So then if you, if you factor
(29:55):
that into consideration, you know, you're looking at 8 or 9
days per restaurant. It's crazy per department and we
do every two weeks, but it's still, it adds up over the
month. And then that's let alone the
background, you know, we've recently hired someone to do
systems and data to make sure that the system is up to date.
And that's a full time person. Just yeah.
Looking after us, mopping up inventory.
(30:16):
God sounds horrific. But look, thank you very much
for coming to see me. That was super interesting.
I think if people want to get hold of you and kind of listen
to your dulcet tones and think. Oh dear.
Yeah. Can they?
Can they greet you in any way? What's the safest way to reach
you without stalking you? Without stalking me coming to
the restaurant. Is a good.
There you go. That's a good one, yeah.
Come. In which one if you, if you
haven't, but I am you know, chief probably seemed very
(30:39):
active on LinkedIn. Yes, so LinkedIn.
'S those charitable events you seem to be doing a lot of your
climbing mountains and riding bikes yet or not I.
Am. I'm, I am, I'm doing Cuba in
April. Are you really?
I am. So we're doing the 400 kilometre
hospitality rides cycle. And are you a cyclist?
No, I'm actually actually reallyafraid of bikes, so I haven't
bought my bike. Yet you're doing exactly what
(31:01):
you did, so it's just true. You're authentic because the
last half an hour you've just been talking about taking some.
Risks So I biked my order in my bike this weekend and getting
training done from next. Week.
Very cool look. Thank you very much for coming
in. I'm sure people come and find
Black Lock soon. Lovely to see you.
Thanks for your time. Thank you for having.
Me and we'll see you all soon. Thank you.
Welcome to Business in Better Shape, where we take hospitality
out of the boardroom and onto shift.
Let's get into IT Business in Better Shape.
Powered by Square and brought toyou by Tech on Toast.
In our first episode, we're diving into the disruption,
(00:23):
delusion, why we steal, fear, change.
Joining us today is Maria McCann, Operations Director at
Blacklock, the much loved chop specialist known for legendary
Sunday roast, cosy basements andplates that were made for
sharing. Maria knows first hand what it
takes to run a growing group without losing the heart of what
makes Blacklock special. From building culture across
multiple sites to tackling the industry's fear of change,
(00:46):
welcome to Techno's podcast. Today we're joined by, I'm going
to say a good friend because I've seen you a few times in our
WhatsApp group, but we haven't met in person.
So meet for the first time. Marie McCann, how are you?
Great. Lovely to meet you.
No, you're welcome. And today we can talk about
fearing change. You've got kids, haven't you?
I do. I have one, Yeah.
And I am now the most chilled out person you'll ever meet in
work compared to what I was before.
(01:07):
Because nothing stresses you more than a 10 year old not
being able to put shoes on. 100%that's right.
There's a sketch, I think I forget the I forget the comedian
now, who does a talks about trying to leave the house before
you have kids versus when you have kids.
Yeah, it's it's absolutely crazy.
So and I think the problem with hostility over the years has
always been, for me anyway, whathappened in it.
Change is a problem because people just get stuck in their
(01:29):
ways. We're quite as an industry.
I think we're quite like that. We're kind of like what we've
always done. So we don't like to address it.
So just before we kind of get into kind of talking about
change, tell us a little bit about you and where you work and
what you do. So I actually started out to
study to be a dietitian so from Ireland.
Accent doesn't give it away or anything.
It's not that strong. That's good after a couple of
(01:52):
beers get so we might come out and then moved to Scotland.
Studied to be a dietitian, was working in hospitality at the
same time to fund my education and you.
I clearly love food and beverage, knew I love people,
but hospitality, working on uni completely changed my view on my
career. And it wasn't just to pay your
(02:13):
way, it was there and I'm actually, I really enjoy this
and I could, I could maybe make a career out of this.
I worked for similar to you at one point in your life, Hard
Rock Cafe for five years. Did you?
I was Hard Rock, Edinburgh for five years.
So I was Hard Rock and the training and the passion, as you
all know very well that went into Hard Rock.
That's brand new. I ended up studying more for
(02:37):
menu changes in Hard Rock than some of my exams in uni and I
thought you'll be fine. And I just was passionately in
love with the culture and how people can come together all
around the world. I then travelled the fabulous
day of Paulo in his day told me that never to come back because
(02:57):
I had a career to get to enjoy the world and unless I was going
into my career to not come back to Hard Rock because he wanted
to see me really successful as adietitian.
But throughout Hard Rock I got to help with their allergens
because it wasn't law then didn't come in until 2011.
So there was still a lot of foodand passion, but it was that
versatility you could have that your degree on the side was
(03:19):
actually helping the business and the business you were
working in was also helping yourpractice and your degree and how
you were able to deal with people.
I travelled the world, fell in love with food and beverage even
more and came back. Was applying for jobs as a
dietitian and got a job with Living Ventures as a let's just
do this on the side until something comes through and very
(03:40):
quickly became AGM of living room.
And so we did. Then the applications for
dietitians slowly stopped and I then got a Living Ventures got
sold on and I got a call from the company that run Shake Shack
and saying look, we're open in the UK, would you consider a
(04:01):
move to London? And I went, I love setting the
table, I love Danny Meyer. This seems great.
Absolutely. So off I went, did some training
in Dubai, moved to London to do 8 years of a burger chain that
is now globally recognized. And then very serendipitous at
the time, but back in 2013 was at an event in Hawksmoor.
(04:23):
Danny Meyer was speaking, GordonCare was at that talk.
We didn't meet at the time, but years later through Richard
Turner, we became friends. We did a lot of stuff together
during COVID and delivery only. And then when that we came out
of COVID or just before coming out of COVID, was lucky enough
to join the Blacklock team full time.
(04:43):
So now 3 1/2 years on as obstructor.
And tell us a bit about Blacklock.
For people who don't know what they do, what kind of what kind
of restaurant is it? Yeah.
So Blacklock is a traditional British chop house.
So the chop house was very famous back in the day and then
disappeared and started making abit of a comeback.
It is, you know, what people would consider in America as a
traditional steakhouse. But a chop house is British and
(05:06):
on the bone, and it is all thosedelicious cuts of meat on the
bone and all the treatments thatgo along with.
It never good to talk about black house before lunch.
Black a lot. Sorry, black a lot before lunch.
I'm starving. And, and and I think you've
probably seen a bit of this, butlike they use the phrase
disruption and hostility and often it comes with a bit of
trepidation kind of thing. Why, why do you think there's
still resistance, I suppose around kind of change our
(05:29):
energy, whether it's changing a menu or whether it's changing
someone's shift. But why do you think there's
still a bit of fear around that?I think if you look at the
personality types that work in hospitality, they are very
comfortable in the known. They have lived through things
going wrong and they've learned from it.
So every time they've had to do some form of change, it's
usually because something's gonewrong.
(05:51):
And therefore they they learn from that experience.
So it develops that fear of let's not do change because
anytime they've had to do changebefore, it's because something's
gone wrong and they get really comfy in the known and they get
comfy in this has happened to mebefore.
Therefore I'll do this and I'll do this as soon as you put the
as much as we are very outgoing people in the industry, we all
(06:11):
also talk to each other. So if you don't have the answer,
you tend to go to somebody else.Very similar to the WhatsApp
that we all have. You know, it's who in the
industry does know if we don't know.
And then when change comes alongthat is fully unknown, some tech
things that have come along and nobody knows.
There's not even someone to ask.So I think it's more that I
(06:32):
haven't lived it before, I haven't done it.
I need to have the answer for myteam or somebody needs to have
the answer for somebody else. Because we're problem solvers.
I mean, I think that's the problem sometimes in the
industry that actually we are, we make stuff happen, you know?
And if you're not that person that has the answer, oh, it's
easier just not to do that. And I suppose and what's the
biggest blocker, because you're managing, you've managed I
suppose of quite a few OPS teamsnow, what's the biggest blocker?
(06:54):
I suppose when you're dealing with change rather than
obviously you've talked about personality type.
But other other, if I used to find, used to have a girl at
Hard Rock called Shorty. I don't know if you ever met
her, but she was in Birmingham and everyone had a Shorty in
their business. Shorty was she was short, but
she worked in Birmingham and shehad the ability to make a shift
or break a shift depending on her mood swing.
And I don't know if that I, I used to find those personalities
(07:17):
across businesses were always one blocker.
But what? What do you think?
I think the most important skillyou can ever do in hospitality
is get to know your person. So if you know what it is that
is causing those mood swings or is causing that fear, or you
know, it's, it's usually nothingto do with work.
Let's be honest. It's usually something else
going on. If you know enough about your
(07:39):
people, you can get them comfortable with you.
And therefore the change that's coming or the shift that's
coming or whatever might be happening, if you go carbon
copy, this is the only way to manage.
And this is my leadership cell. You're gonna, you're gonna get
people that really don't want towork with you.
And with you is the really important bit of that.
It's not for you, it's with you.So you're always going to have
different personality types, andwe need that because if we were
(08:02):
all the real outgoing bursts of energy, nobody get anything done
we do need. Sounds like a toast we do.
Need some of the really organized, structured if you do
insights. We need those Blues to go into
the detail. We can't all be sunshine yellow
or the Reds because we'd never Dr. hospitality businesses.
But the most important bit is getting to know them and taking
(08:23):
time to understand what it is that makes them tick or makes
them energized or creates fear. And what about tech
specifically? So if AI we've been talking
about, but together recently when something new like that is
coming along, so it's not a pause or it's not a workforce
manager thing, it's a brand new bit of tech.
How does that, how do you guys deal with that?
(08:43):
Because you, like you said, you don't have that experience of
knowing what that does or is howdo you guys manage that process?
Is it sometimes the jargon that scares people like tech stack or
whatever AI, whatever it is? What are the biggest blockers
there? I think if you were to go back a
year, I think Jargon probably would have been it maybe a bit
more. I think the more podcasts like
this, the, you know, I think it was in partnership with bills
(09:06):
that was created where that had all of the, you know, the
descriptions. And it's almost like a glossary
for tech that people can read and they're not afraid to then
go, oh, that's what that means. I think the more live examples
of putting it into practice has helped and broken down that fear
of digitization or tech stack or, you know, data reservoirs or
warehouses or whatever it might be.
(09:27):
But I think there is there's still a level of there's so much
out there. So rather than trying to listen
to everyone, it goes back to team first, listen to your team.
What do they do in every single day that really annoys them.
What has taken up all their time?
And they are not going to have the answers.
They're not going to know what the solution is, but they are
(09:50):
going to know what takes them five hours in a Monday.
That's taking the live service. What is it that they repeatedly
do that repeatedly goes wrong that really annoys them.
And you know that then could be the make or break of how good
well that shift goes. And if you've got 3 or 4
restaurants also in the same thing, that's then your problem.
And that's then when you go out looking for a solution, rather
(10:10):
than 20 solutions coming to you go.
And we're great at this. Make us work in your business.
Yeah, square peg, round hole. Yeah.
And what about, I suppose, because the biggest thing is
about adoption, I suppose when you find that right solution
that you've chosen around the team, how do you make that work?
How do you get by? And I suppose I suppose again
similar to a new menu or something about how do you get
the team to follow you? I think it's first of all making
(10:32):
sure that you're doing somethingthat they've originally
initially raised as potential problem or and it's a solution
for them. And then the other key bit is
making sure that you include them along the way.
Now, it's not necessarily makingthem responsible because they've
already got a hell of a lot of stuff to do and they want to get
involved, but they do want to beinformed and they want to know
(10:53):
what's going on each stage of the process.
So not responsible, but definitely informed and
potentially on certain stages consulted.
And if they have a little bit ofit, it goes to launch time.
And it isn't a Oh my God, this is new.
What are we doing? Where is this come from?
It's instead, it's a finally, it's here, we get to launch and
there's an excitement. If you do it all in the
background without explaining things along the way, they just
(11:15):
get slapped in the face with something new and don't want to
do it. I think it's and when I speak to
the tech guys, sometimes, you know, you have like the a
Saturday 510 shift. So someone who only works every
Saturday because they've got university, they've got kids,
whatever they're doing in their life, right?
That's they, those people run the industry and it's must be, I
find it must be those are the people we need to sorry, look,
look after because they must come in right on a Saturday.
(11:36):
What there's a new pause or there's a new QR code at the
table or something. And they're just like, what?
What? Yeah.
And I think that must be super hard to manage for you guys
because you also have to accommodate them as well as your
full time as everyone else. Is that something that you kind
of give responsibility to the general manager to look after to
make sure look incorporate the whole team when you're rolling
out change? I think twofold.
(11:56):
I think a lot of the things thatare change are usually to make
the managers lives easier and the team's life easier.
So they shouldn't really notice that it's changed.
It should be smooth enough for them to just go, that was
quicker and then it's easier forthem.
And the other bit is then yes, it relies the general managers.
Yes, there's a lot of briefings,but also there's always a few
(12:20):
people in each restaurant, no matter where you go, no matter
what industry you're in, that are really passionate about
whatever you're doing and they're the voice on the ground
now, whether that be a Friday, Saturday, part time person or a
full time head waiter, You know,if you're doing content
creation, you're always going toget someone who's amazing on
Instagram and wants to get involved.
You just didn't know. Same with tech potentially like
(12:42):
chalkboards for us in the restaurant.
Some people hate doing handwriting.
There's some artists in our restaurants that are fabulous
and love it. So it goes back always to
getting to know your people because if you have a couple of
waiters, bartenders, chefs that are secretly passionate in the
background and they can help create some stuff alongside it
there then your voice in the restaurant without you being a
solo voice in your company. You know, we've got a head chef
(13:04):
in shortage who absolutely lovesChatGPT creating like different
pictures and it's hilarious, buthe also does like a loads of
slow videos of like Sunday cooking for team engagement.
We're about to launch our digital video learning and he's
now a huge part of that project because something he's
passionately about and thereforethe team are all involved and
(13:25):
it's in a friendly face. So the videos that we're
creating will all be our team and you learn more through quick
videos, but then also with people you recognize because
you're going to pay more attention.
Yeah, because you care more. Always goes back to who in your
team can you get involved because then they will roll it
out with you. Of that.
And what about have you got an example of a time, I suppose,
(13:46):
when you've had to, you've rolled something out.
It doesn't have to be attacked, but something you've put out and
gone, oh God, that didn't work, and then RIP it out again.
Maybe not a black lot, but in your career at some point.
Yeah, I'm I think it was twofold.
And maybe not RIP it out completely.
We did a test run of kiosks and shake shake and it was more of a
needs must because it was it wasnew and it was coming up and we
(14:08):
did launch it and we trialled itand then we did RIP it up and
start again, but have now launched it everywhere.
So it was actually maybe this isn't the right time or fit for
purpose. But I think the other one is the
ones that are forced upon you, You know, sometimes you get
really reliant on a tech or a system or a product and you need
to remember that they are all outsourced.
So when they go away, that change happens.
(14:30):
So the big one for a lot of hospitality companies right now
around communication was workplace going away.
We didn't have that 6. 600,000 users?
I don't know was it 6,000,000? I can't remember about a lot of
people in hostile to using it. And then all of a sudden, you
know, your, your business plan of what are you doing in 2025
becomes of finding a new communication platforms that 300
staff use on a daily basis. That the chat function.
(14:52):
We got rid of WhatsApp and then,Oh no, people are chefs are
going to go back to using WhatsApp because it's change and
it's something different. So sometimes it isn't because
it's gone wrong. It's because something's been
thrown at you and you need to work around it.
And I think workplace going awaywas that challenge for us.
And how do we, how do we move without dropping?
Because we'd got really good at communication without having to
(15:14):
use WhatsApp. And then it was that, oh, it's
different. And how, how have your team
take, have you done that change yet?
Are you in the middle of it? And how's it been bringing them
based on the adoption question as well, I suppose, how's it
been bringing them over from that?
Because it is a big change, isn't it?
Because they quite intuitively will just be talking every day
through knowing this is work. Then all of a sudden it changes.
All in all, it went really, really well and it was really
(15:35):
seamless. We were lucky that we were able
to keep our workplace data and history so we can still access
that on the new platform, so we can access all of our old chats
and all of our own posts, etcetera.
So nothing was lost and I think that made that process quite
seamless. There was a bit of a you know,
one kitchen in particular, and Iwon't name names just in case.
(15:56):
They might be listening. But they instantly went back to
WhatsApp, I fear, and that took a few months for us to win out
of where they would WhatsApp somebody.
And I'd then reply and go, I'll respond, but on the new
platform. And that's now where no one is
using WhatsApp again. So there was of course a slight
dip and but being able to keep your old data, it was the key
(16:19):
for it being quite seamless for us, yeah.
I think that's K isn't it that because it's not like you said
before, I haven't experienced it, but they have, you know, so
it's kind of that seamless, seamless journey.
What about a bit of tech innovation that that had an
impact, a big impact, but wasn'tdisruptive, I suppose as because
you can have you can change things really simply right, like
AI think will be one of these. It'll be one of these things
that you can put in and not likenot open heart surgery, I
(16:42):
suppose. Have you had an example of that?
I think it's a big one for me and I think Prithvi thinks I'm
on just on Commission for him. I.
Generally AM. Sentiment has really changed.
You know, everything from what we do around board table and
(17:02):
business planning and executive level strategic planning to
day-to-day training to individual restaurants, how they
handle guests. Guest for us is such an
emotional topic. You know, you get multiple
emails from Google, OpenTable, whatever your reservations
platform are. You then read it yourself on the
platform. I was finding that there might
(17:23):
have been one complaint, but I was seeing it come through on
Google. I was seeing it come through in
an open table summary. I was seeing it come through in
a weekly summary. I might have been seeing that
same complaints five times in a week and thought stop
everything, this is the end of the world.
If that's happening five times in Covent Garden, it must be
happening everywhere. And actually it wasn't.
And it was just a really emotive, emotional topic for us
(17:45):
and we were, you know, dropping what the exec head chef was
doing and he'll redistributing his time to go and find out what
on earth is going on on a Sundaywith the potatoes.
Actually there was nothing goingon and it was 1 error and things
happen. But being able to implement
sentiment has then give us one data to be able to see genuinely
(18:06):
what are the trends. It's been able to pull out the
sentiment of each of the reviews.
You know, not all reviews are glowing.
There might be a really, really great review and one tiny little
bit of constructive feedback. And one of our core values is
power of 1%. We say, how do we improve just
that tiny little bit each day oreach month or each year?
And sentiment has helped us do that using data, but without
(18:28):
having to do anything differently.
It is being created for us and we are now then bringing in that
response. How do we create a black lock
tone of voice to help our managers when they are great
reviews, not have to manually review to everything?
They can create a couple of little annual responses in our
tone of voice and an I built with the AI part of of that
(18:49):
response. And then they still do the ones
and twos and three stars or any of the really potentially ones
that need a phone call. So still old school hospitality.
So we've managed to merge the platform into day-to-day life
seamlessly and it has really added value.
Very cool. I agree.
I think his platform's insane. We don't get paid for him.
He pays you on the marketplace. And when you think about
(19:10):
operators being pitched to daily, you mentioned it before
about firstly, you're talking tothe team, you know, understand
what what is our issue? How do we fix it?
Rather than someone hitting you over the head, how, how should
vendors actually approach you from, because it's, it's
interesting, right? Because I think that I had, I
think Tommy from Honestberg was on the podcast ages ago.
Yeah. And he, he said, I just want to
leave a list now for anyone, anyone who's listening about
(19:30):
vendors. He said, I just want to tell you
how you should approach this. But what's your opinion?
Because obviously you get spammed on LinkedIn properly or
wherever, or maybe in person events.
I don't know. How do people approach you?
I think the first key one is getthe brand's name right.
You know you might have. Like when I said what did I say
before black? I'm going to edit this bit, but
whatever I said. But whenever you get you get
random like spam emails and you know they'll they'll have the
(19:53):
wrong name or they'll see previously I was at Shake Shack.
So they'll be like, Oh, we see that you're opposite Shake
Shack. No, I'm not anymore, but.
I think this is where AI goes wrong, right?
Yeah, but I think that if you are going to do it, make sure
you know the brand. I think the same way hospitality
venues are really good understanding what they are
about and they have a brand and they have a product and they
(20:14):
have a team and they have a ethos.
Tech companies should have the same and instead of going mass
market, handpick the brands thatyou know your product
potentially could work with. Know a bit about the brand, go
in and eat in the brand, speak to the teams, do a bit of
research, and then do a personalized approach that shows
(20:36):
you that you genuinely think your product would match that
brand. If you're just trying to mass
market a product because it's a sales pitch, no one's no one's
going to. I think we're the worst industry
to do that too, right? Because we, like you said, we're
all like you talked about the guests, then you've actually got
a complaint. I remember we used to have in
college as a site contact form. It was called.
If you've got a site contact form, and you know the fear, you
can tell already. Our Sarah Murray was my boss.
(20:58):
Oh, my God, The minute that dropped in my box, I didn't even
look if it was positive because it probably wasn't.
Yeah, you were. That was your day over like a
mystery diner. Like because we care.
You just see the percentage and then you read the review book.
You just feel sick and the poor GM is probably feeling 10 times
worse than you are. But you're right.
And I think that that the approach of the spamming and I
know they're hyper invested companies are on a path to
(21:18):
selling, but it doesn't matter to us.
We don't care. So I, I think it's interesting
and out of interest, pretty, didhe give you his little pack?
Did he give you a little folder of that?
Because normally I've seen him with little folders under his
arm and he'd basically does a comparison for you and your
nearby brands that you compete. With Yeah, he did it all
digitally. I did it all pack.
But he did. And I love the ability for us to
(21:38):
be introed, have a quick look. What are you after?
And then that proper first call.He'd set up the platform.
Yeah, done. Like he'd done it.
He'd done his research. He checked what we are.
He had a few suggested competitors.
He had, you know, gone back and pulled all of our data.
He'd asked me for, you know, onelogin to our OpenTable so he
could show me what the platform would look like.
(21:59):
And he gave us a trial of it andsaid, look here, test it for a
bit, have a look, see what you think.
Does this work for you? And then the wrap around care.
The other big thing that probably annoys most hospitality
venues more than anything is youget sold the dream from a car
salesman and then all the parts fall off and there's no MOT in
the wind and then they just go. So if you're going to really
(22:22):
sell a product and you're part of your product being there to
back it up. The other great thing about
sentiment is if something does go wrong, you've got any
questions, you know, you contactthem, they're back in touch with
you that day or the next day with no problem.
This is what we're doing about it.
Yeah, he doesn't mess around. And I think that's so true.
I think we were talking, I thinkin the research actually support
was number 2. I think in the most important
(22:43):
thing to operate is actually we don't even mind if your product
breaks a bit as long as you're there to help us.
That's all we care about becausewe are fixers.
We know what we're doing. That's that's great.
And if you're going going to move from fear to curiosity and
OPS teams, what, what's the shift in leadership that has to
happen, I suppose to help do that to kind of move them along
that process? I think if there's a few things
(23:04):
launched that they show that they've been listened to and
it's worked, that will then get,oh, OK, this is good.
I think there's also one, a few other people have done it.
So, you know, having it's reallyinteresting because as an
industry we want to have restaurants that are slightly
different. We all want to have that unique
(23:25):
selling point, but bizarrely, nobody wants to be different.
So you don't want to be the test, you don't want to be the
Guinea pig. So it's trying to find that fine
balance of being the restaurant that's unique and individual and
has that that unique USP and that's slightly different, but
the people that don't want to betreated as different.
So when you're looking at tech, it's trying to find that
balance. And I think as soon as one or
two people who you trust or you look to in the industry have
(23:47):
done a version of it and then they've got a few results, then
that curiosity will grow and grow.
It just takes one or two or three key people in the industry
to take that leap, first of all.And sometimes it's like this,
it's talking about it to get theword out there to increase
curiosity. And there will be a lot of
(24:07):
operators out there that are curious, but they might be
getting pushed back in boardrooms because it's the
unknown and they don't want to have the financial risk or the
fear of what if it all goes wrong.
So I think there is that twofoldof take a little bit of
calculated risk, but also talk to your peers on what they're
doing and then get sort of that combined voice in the industry
(24:28):
to help others want to do the same.
That's a great piece of advice. And what advice on advice, What
advice would you give to AGM or OPS manager who wants to try, I
suppose something new, I suppose, seems what you just
said. So they're kind of stuck in a
rut and they're thinking they'redoing it next door.
I'm losing employees to another company that does it well.
What is the first step I supposeover that to sort of say, is it
similar to what you just said then?
(24:48):
Yeah, I think there's a big difference between, you know, we
talk about fear of effing up cares that I don't swear, but
it's very well managed. We talk about FOFU quite a lot.
So not not having that fear of of doing it wrong, doing your
research to have enough calculated risk.
So put a lot of work into looking at what is it, what is
(25:11):
the potential root cause, what might happen.
But there's only so much research you can do until you've
tested it in practice. So I think the bit that we are
great at in industry is we do a lot of research.
We look at what might happen, the pros and the cons, but then
do a small test. I think the only way that you're
going to get over that fear of doing something new is to test
it. You know, Danny Meyer and I
(25:33):
mentioned already how much I love Sat in the Table.
He has a whole chapter in his book about the road to success
being paved with mistakes well handled.
Things have to go wrong for themto go right.
That's what the industry is built on in my opinion.
I mean, you work for Hard Rock, right?
And I'm the old mantras, their level serve will take time to be
kind and all, all the mantras that we used to which I still
trot out, I'm sure you do today.I I think are born out of that,
(25:56):
are born out of people messing up and that place messed up more
now anyone know, right. But we got away with it with a
smile and a kind of like, hey ho, we'll do that the next time.
And we did. And we always excel.
So I do think it's built on that.
And I think from the tech side of things, actually from the
vendors they want to do, it's not, they don't care about
selling. They want to demo and that's
because if they, you already believe in your.
(26:16):
So back to the car analogy. If you really think your car's
the best car on the on the courtyard, if someone has a go
in it, you're probably going to sell it.
Yeah. So I think, yeah.
So I think there's a 2 fold thing there that we want more
operators to say, yeah, we'll doa demo.
Let's try in a safe tested environment, give it a go.
And then if we don't see what you said, we'd see then you can
pack your bags on your way. Exactly.
And I think that goes for everything.
(26:37):
I think you, you know, do your research, look at what might go
wrong. So there is an element of
planning as much as you can ahead.
And that might be for GM's dealing with people, you know,
have those open conversations, talk, figure out what might go
wrong, but then take a bit of a risk, you know, do a one or two
test in a location or with a product or whatever it might be.
(26:59):
And then give it enough time as well.
So there is also that it didn't work within a week.
Let's pull it. You do need a little bit of time
to see if the test works and then learn from the test.
And that's in my eyes, the best way.
For us. It's chops and chips, right?
It's really, I know, is that simplicity of it.
(27:19):
For Shake Shack, it was burgers and chips, right?
So at the end of the day, we're here but giving people great
experiences and great food so wecan have that little allowance
of do it with a smile. You get the forgiveness if
something does go wrong because we're very good at dealing with
what stuff does go wrong, so I would encourage people to take
(27:41):
calculated risks a little bit more often.
Love that they'll all be on the phone to you when that goes
wrong. I know I'm careful what I say
whenever all my head chefs is ripping up menu make.
Tomorrow, we don't care. Everything's done on AI and, and
I suppose finally, what's the one thing that hasn't happened
that you'd like to see happen? A disruptions don't have to be
technology. It could be anything.
It's kind of an open book here for you, But what, what's the
one thing you'd like to see disrupt hostility a little bit.
(28:02):
I don't love that word, but kindof mix it, mess it up a little
bit and kind of put us in a in aplace where we're doing better
in one particular. I think from a tech point of
view, stock takes are my biggestbug there and I think it
probably has been forever and I would just love a system to come
and do it all for. You what are what are the things
that I mean, I kind of know because I spent 25 years doing
(28:24):
them. But, and I guess I I think it's
the one bit that hasn't changed.Yeah, I agree and.
And it makes me really sad. And I think it's because
there's, you know, workforce management is within reason.
Yeah, it is people, time and attendance, HR, working time,
regulations, availability, shiftpatterns, skill sets.
(28:44):
Stock can be, if it's just bar stock, it's literally bottle to
bottle. But there's just so many
variables between different batches and products and
suppliers that I think no matterwho tries to tackle it, they get
so far really well and then theyjust give up.
Yeah, SK use or whatever or whatever you call them in
hostility and in college shows had 890 lines of different pack
(29:08):
sizes and different because we had the daily the shelf and book
restaurant. I've got it and yeah.
And getting a true number is a achallenge around for people like
you who need to report on that. Yeah, it's very difficult.
And it goes back to initially when we said tech or change, the
team shouldn't feel it. It should just be something that
makes their lives easier. And I think that in the long
run, if if our stocks for our head chefs and our group bar
(29:32):
managers and our head bartenders, they can get
seamless, that's something that would make.
Their how much time does it takeyou think 2 is it still two days
a week, probably out, not full days, but still two days.
They're focused on stock and andmaybe longer if there's issues.
Pretty much, yeah. So it's definitely a whole day,
yeah, for both departments. So then if you, if you factor
(29:55):
that into consideration, you know, you're looking at 8 or 9
days per restaurant. It's crazy per department and we
do every two weeks, but it's still, it adds up over the
month. And then that's let alone the
background, you know, we've recently hired someone to do
systems and data to make sure that the system is up to date.
And that's a full time person. Just yeah.
Looking after us, mopping up inventory.
(30:16):
God sounds horrific. But look, thank you very much
for coming to see me. That was super interesting.
I think if people want to get hold of you and kind of listen
to your dulcet tones and think. Oh dear.
Yeah. Can they?
Can they greet you in any way? What's the safest way to reach
you without stalking you? Without stalking me coming to
the restaurant. Is a good.
There you go. That's a good one, yeah.
Come. In which one if you, if you
haven't, but I am you know, chief probably seemed very
(30:39):
active on LinkedIn. Yes, so LinkedIn.
'S those charitable events you seem to be doing a lot of your
climbing mountains and riding bikes yet or not I.
Am. I'm, I am, I'm doing Cuba in
April. Are you really?
I am. So we're doing the 400 kilometre
hospitality rides cycle. And are you a cyclist?
No, I'm actually actually reallyafraid of bikes, so I haven't
bought my bike. Yet you're doing exactly what
(31:01):
you did, so it's just true. You're authentic because the
last half an hour you've just been talking about taking some.
Risks So I biked my order in my bike this weekend and getting
training done from next. Week.
Very cool look. Thank you very much for coming
in. I'm sure people come and find
Black Lock soon. Lovely to see you.
Thanks for your time. Thank you for having.
Me and we'll see you all soon. Thank you.
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