What Diners Want: The New Rules of Loyalty in Hospitality

In this special episode of the Tech on Toast Podcast 🎙️, brought to you in partnership with Zonal, we dig into one of hospitality’s most overused — and misunderstood — buzzwords: loyalty.

Host Chris Fletcher is joined by:

• John Sills 📖 – Author of The Human Experience, who argues loyalty doesn’t really exist — usefulness does.

• Ruth Carpenter 🍕 – Head of Marketing at Pizza Pilgrims, sharing how guest feedback, authenticity, and joy drive repeat visits.

• Gillian Nicholson 💡 – Sales Director at Zonal, bringing insights from 17,000+ hospitality customers and the tech powering their guest experiences.

They explore:

• 🔍 Has “loyalty” been replaced by usefulness?

• 📉 How the cost-of-living crisis is reshaping dining habits — from earlier booking times to lighter menu choices.

• 🤝 Keeping the human touch when tech runs in the background.

• 📦 Subscription models — convenience or commercial trap?

• ♿ The growing demand for accessibility, sustainability, and purpose-driven brands.

• 📨 Why personalisation might be overhyped — and what really drives engagement.

Expect candid stories about burnt pizzas, stolen deliveries, subscription fatigue, and the surprising social trends — from sleep habits to bottomless brunches — shaping hospitality in 2025.

Whether you’re an operator, marketer, or tech provider, this episode blends data, humour, and hard truths about what it really takes to keep guests coming back.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I'm not joking. He had a mouthful of pizza and
he denied it. But really, innovation comes
from understanding what's going on in people's lives and what
matters to them. You could say all over.
Let's say all. Over.
You're only as good as the pizzathat you serve.
There are a balanced fine balance between the human touch
and kind of what we're seeing inthe subscription model, which is
becoming very popular. It's like.
So boring means that leaders endup taking their customers for

(00:21):
granted. Just shows the how fragile
loyalty. Is we want people to give us
honest feedback that then impactour decisions.
It's about making sure the tech we use has humanity built within
it. I.
Think it's 52% of consumers havehigher expectations now?
What's going through the cost ofliving?
Taxes. I think there's a need to like
really simplify because we've got so much we've.
Definitely just had elegant. The success happens is when

(00:44):
that's carefully considered in thought.
People's kits aren't as deep anymore.
We're all off to order a pizza by electric bike.
Hi everyone, welcome to a very special edition of the Tech and
Toast podcast brought to you with our partner Zonal.
Over the next couple of weeks, we're going to be looking into
loyalty and how it's affecting the industry.
For this first episode, we're going to look into consumer
behaviour. We're going to be looking to how
our guests decide where to spend, what to eat and whether

(01:06):
they keep coming back or not. Joining us today we have John
Sills, author of The Human Experience, Ruth Carpenter, head
of marketing at Pizza Pilgrims, Gillian Nicholson, sales
director at Zonal and me, Chris,I'm your host for the day.
We'll be talking about to returnto city centre dining, the role,
tech and guest experience and what actually builds loyalty
today. So let's get on with it.
Let's meet the guests. All right, And we shall meet our
guest today and John Sills. Hello John, how are you?

(01:28):
I'm very good. How are you?
Tell us A. Little bit about you, John.
How have you ended up here todaywith us?
It's a very good question. I, well, my deja is managing
partner of the foundation. So we're a growth consultancy
that works with organizations ofall shapes and sizes to grow in
a customer way. And I think I'm probably
specifically here because a couple of years ago I wrote a
book called The Human Experience.
It was all about how loyalty wasa myth and humanity was what

(01:49):
matters in customer experience. So I think that's led to me
being on a podcast talking abouttechnology and whether loyalty
really is something or not. Thank you very much.
Nice to meet you. And Ruth, I've met you before on
the podcast, but you know, who are you and what do you do?
I'm Ruth and I've been at Pizza Pilgrims for the last 3 1/2
years but with over 12 years experience working in

(02:09):
restaurants like Deshume and Curb and I've always been of the
stance of always picking the customer 1st and how we can
build that loyalty organically as well as through marketing
tools. Perfect.
And you have a lovely dog who's not here today, who's causing
you some chaos, but we'll get into that later, I'm sure.
And Gillian, lovely to meet you.What do you do and where are
you? From Gillian Nicholson I am

(02:30):
Sales director at Zonal, so I'm responsible for a sales team and
we sail into hospitality. We've been in the business for
over 45 years and we serve customers from single sites,
independent pubs all the way up to large multi chain
organizations. Yeah.
You guys have been around the block in the nicest sense of the
word, haven't you? Yes, we do.
Everybody knows. So let's start with you, John,

(02:51):
cuz something you talked about Ithink in the book from the
outside in is that am I startinghere?
And as Ruth just mentioned that starting with the customer, you
talk about seeing the world fromthe outside end.
But what does that mean in context of hospitality do you
think? And why do you think it's
especially relevant today in in this kind of in where we are
with the industry today? Yeah.
I mean, I think hospitality obviously has had a rough few

(03:11):
years and trying to get back to growth and growing in a good
way. And my belief, our belief is
that the way to grow is by putting the customer at the
heart of your business because you only really make money by a
customer's choosing to buy from you and use you.
So it makes sense to put customers at the heart, but
naturally, like every other industry, you end up seeing the
world from the inside out. You become closer to your
competitors, closer to the products that you offer or the

(03:32):
services that you offer, closer to any kind of industry
pressures that there are. And it means even though you
know your customers are kind of really big and really important,
they end up kind of getting lostin the day-to-day of running a
business. And so it's really important to
try and step outside of that. We sometimes describe it as like
this wedge shape. If you imagine your customer's
life is like this wedge and one end of the thick end of the

(03:54):
wedge, they've got all the things that really mattered to
them, like their friends, family, hopes, dreams,
ambitions, the things they're trying to achieve, the things
that get in the way, the services they used to help.
And right, the very thin end of the wedge is, you know, one of
your restaurants, maybe you and your restaurants, you know, it's
a really, really tiny part of their overall life and their
overall consciousness. Even if they really like you,
they don't want to be thinking about you all the time.

(04:16):
And unfortunately, the way of dealing with this at the moment
in organizations is to send out loads of feedback surveys.
What all those feedback surveys do is ask questions about the
thin end of the wedge. What do you think about us?
What do you think about our product?
What do you think about our service?
Would you recommend us? But really, innovation comes
from understanding what's going on in people's lives and what
matters to them, and then finding ways to be to be useful
in that. So I think it's more important

(04:37):
than ever for organizations in hospitality to focus on that
now, because that's going to be the way to get back to growth, I
think. What a great way to explain it,
the thick and thin end of the wedge.
I feel like I spent my life at the thick end of the edge and
Ruth at Peter Pilgrims, you justmentioned this at the start and
I know you guys quite well and Ithink that you guys do try to
look at the customer first. Have you got any recent examples

(04:58):
I suppose of how you guys have used that scenario I suppose to
apply to what you do everyday? Yeah, actually, like really
relevant to what you've just said, we're using a tool called
a test, which is a blanket customer survey tool to really
get to grips of what our customers want.
How we approach that is we'll never say, hey, we're pizza
pilgrims, what do you think of our menu?

(05:19):
We'll say, if you're going to dine at a pizza restaurant, what
would your expectations be? How can we exceed your
expectations? What do you expect if you we
were to put a beer on our menu as a blanket brand?
What kind of brands would you like to see and what serves?
And what makes a pint like worth£7?
To you nothing. Nothing.

(05:41):
We all cry and really get an understanding, but we'll never
say we're pizza pilgrims, do youlike us better than Rudy's,
Frank America, etcetera. Because we want people to give
us honest feedback that then impact our decisions.
And I can't tell you who it is, but we are actually moving to a
new beer partner and that'll be being set up in September.
But that was very much dictated by those surveys and really

(06:02):
listening to what the customers expect and then building project
plan around how we exceed their expectations with everything
that we do with that chosen partner.
So we found it really invaluableand we are seeing the return of
customers wanting to come back and our frequency of visit has
actually increased. And you actually encourage you,
don't you as in as a brand as well outside the marketing side.

(06:23):
If you look at you guys on social media or wherever you see
you or, or even being in the in the sites, you feel that kind of
engagement that actually you're encouraged to engage whether you
like it or not. Many, many a times we've asked
social media what what kind of serve glass they want their
Negronis in, or what pizza should be on our guest pizza
roster for that month. So we we feel like the reason
why Pizza Pilgrims Keep is delivering, it's because we

(06:46):
really do make sure that we understand who our customer is
and build that genuine connection with their lives.
Love it. And Gillian, you've traveled
all, I mean, shall I say, all around the UK with Zanal.
Is that the right to say or justin Scotland?
Well, you're down here now, right?
Yeah, yeah. Live in the South.
So yeah, you could see all over.Let's see all over.
It's so glamorous, the well traveled zillion, and you must

(07:09):
see that actually, cuz zones gotquite a vast customer base.
You must see examples of how people are using technology I
suppose to drive insight or to drive more data like Ruth
Talking and John alludes to. So they're actually getting into
that, that kind of unique point of being to understand their
customer better. Yeah.
And I think obviously it's almost been in the hospitality
industry for over 45 years and it's something that we are
passionate about, like you say, Ruth, understanding the

(07:31):
technology landscape that the landscape that we are serving
rather than specific customers. So I think we do a lot of
research at Zonal and actually things that we are learning
about the consumer changes that we're seeing As for example,
bookings times are moving earlier and earlier.
So I think a recent report said 612 is the new 8:00 PM, I think

(07:52):
and more and more people are going out earlier and that's for
a variety of different reasons. But I think there's way that we
can understand what changes are happening.
And I think for us then we can then garner those insights and
tailor our technology platform. I find that fascinating as well,
you know, like the, the, the shift in behaviour around, you
know, when you might dine out because you immediately think at
the thick end again thinking about me, thinking about how I

(08:13):
behave and you know, and where Iwould go.
And are you seeing that across? Are you seeing that kind of
probably not specifically that data, but are you seeing a shift
in the way consumers, everyone, I suppose how consumers are
changing because it's tough out there, right?
You mentioned at the start, John, that this is a really hard
environment that has been since 2020, right?
It's been very difficult. Are you seeing that shift in
change compared to where you were at the Schume and earlier,

(08:33):
Ruth? 100%, I think that what we're
really seeing is that people's pockets aren't as deep anymore
and that's really like impactingtheir behaviors when ordering.
So we're seeing that we're selling way less pizza than we
ever have done before, but people are then over indexing

(08:54):
inside salads like healthier, lighter choices to go alongside
their pizza. And that's caused a huge impact
in our our sales. Obviously we've had to come up
very creative ways of how to still create the spend ahead
that we we need to keep our restaurants running, our teams
well paid, do all the amazing things that we do for our team,

(09:17):
but still make it good valuable value for the customer.
Sorry. And that's been a tricky
balance, but we are seeing that people are dining out earlier,
less late night and definitely less boost.
That's just me. I think you just explain I'm the
booze, but no, that's a lie. Chris, can I just say because,
yeah, I think that's a really interesting example of, of when
I talk about trying to get up tothe thick end of the wage, it's

(09:37):
slightly different from asking your customers what do they want
and then and then reacting to that.
Because that's a great example of understanding the changes
we're seeing more broadly in society, whether that's
consumers changing their behaviour or whether you've just
got a whole load of new consumers coming in, which is 2
separate things. But understanding if people are
moving more towards being more health conscious.

(09:58):
For example, if people are moving and that means they're
going to a gym and so they want to go early or they want to eat
later, or they want to have earlier nights, they want to
have better sleep. These are all things like
someone's sleep pattern shouldn't really affect, we
wouldn't think that really effects their relationship with
a restaurant necessarily, but ofcourse it affects it hugely.
So the more you're getting people like Brian Johnson for
example, he's the guy that's trying to live forever on

(10:19):
Instagram talking about, you know, sleep is the most
important thing in your life andyou've got to get to bed by
10:00 every night. The knock on impact to that is
people coming into restaurants earlier and that's where if you
understand what's going on in people's lives, you can then
start to predict that behaviour and get ahead of it rather than
just saying to people would you want earlier sittings and that
takes you a while to catch up with customers and if you do
that. So that's the kind.

(10:39):
Of I guess that explains the demise of nightclubs and you
know the well that not just the sleep thing, but but obviously
that that behaviour shifted right around from from where
people are using real late the late night.
The third day part, I used to call it in when I'm in the
industry is slowly depleting. Do you see the same in, in, in
terms of like the economic statewe're in?
Gillian, are you seeing any changes in how you just

(10:59):
mentioned more in terms of that data you've got, but are you
seeing any other changes across the board in terms of how people
are using the industry or how technology is being used?
I mean, I think everyone wants more data, wants more insight,
but I think it's about understanding what the purpose
is that you want it for and whatyou're trying to utilize.

(11:21):
I think it can be a very, everyone wants to do it very
blank approach, but I think you need to tie that to kind of
tight goals and objectives to make sure that you get the most
out of it. And also that what you're going
to do and what you're launching aligns with your brand.
And I think that's kind of wherewe've, we've seen with a lot of
our customers that really is where the success happens is
when that's carefully consideredin thought.

(11:43):
Obviously the data and the volume of data that that our
kind of point of sale system andthen our other platforms can
garner is, is huge. But you need to be able to, I
guess, interpret that the right way and serve it, serve it
appropriately when you're thinking about creating loyalty
schemes and what you want to getout of.
A great segue could actually because Peach in the post, which

(12:04):
we were all obsessed with in thepandemic, it's still going,
right? Still going, still going.
And I think that balance between, I'll come to you after
this, John, the balance between I suppose subscription model and
that kind of need to be connected to your brand versus
the human touch. How's it developed, I suppose
for you? Have you has it changed in where
it from? Where it started when you first
started? Peach in the post?
Has it developed into something new?

(12:25):
It's massively evolved, I'd say.I don't think it's reinvented
itself. It hasn't needed to, but it's
definitely when we launched pizza in the post, it was very
much a very reactive way to saveour business at a time where
restaurants were having to closeand we had all the right tools.
It was actually our founder James's crazy idea that he tried

(12:46):
to launch two years earlier and it absolutely flopped.
And he was like, one day we'll need this.
And he was right. So we could very quickly pivot
and get creative within our COVID restrictions that we were
all living under. And it became this amazing
thing. What we've managed to do is
really like double down on what the customer experience needs to
be in our pizzerias versus what people want as an experience at

(13:10):
home and the nuances between whothe different customers are and
really understanding how we haveone holistic brand voice and
style that will always be protected no matter what.
But we need to talk to those customers extremely differently.
And so I'd say it was a lot slicker.
It looks a lot more beautiful. It's very much like a more

(13:31):
planet friendly now than it was when we first launched, but it's
very much like the premise had to stay the same, but the
character and but this and the sales tactics did have to shift
slightly and. And John, is there a, is there a
thin dot? I'm not using your edge anymore.
A thin dotted line between how consumers are behaving and I
suppose not craving that human touch as Roof alluded to before.

(13:54):
Actually, when you've got some in a restaurant, maybe they're
not coming as often, but they'respending a little bit more
because they want to kind of be a bit more lavish when they're
in there. Is there a link between, is
there a balanced fine balance between the human touch and kind
of what we're seeing in the subscription model, which is
becoming very popular? Yeah, there is.
I've just got to say I did the pizza in the post during COVID
and. Every time we do this, they're

(14:16):
multi geniuses, yeah. It's not it's not as bad as it's
now. It's one of my most
disappointing moments in COVID. Nothing that you did wrong, but
I, I was so excited about it andfriends had recommended it and
me more if we're going to do a date night and we and then I
burned it. I burned the.
Pizza. So easy to do.
Completely my fault. I was like and I was so
disappointed because I spent Anyway it's just really
triggered me shit on that. You should do a.

(14:36):
Campaign around every burnt pizza so you get another box.
Same for me. I, I got 1, I think Gavin who's
the MD was sending one to me as a like try it out type thing.
And my neighbor stole it. So it got, it got left out.
It got left right outside my house.
Yeah. And they walk.
They took the box. So are you writing that one
down, Ruth? It's just like that.

(14:57):
Your neighbors. Are.
You. Yeah.
I'm not round. I'm not round.
And I'm not joking. He had a mouthful of pieces and
he denied it. Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, just just so you know,Peter, Peter and the posters
called yeah, yeah. Loads of trouble.
Anyway, Carol from. What you asked for me just, it
was quite an emotional moment for me.
I, so I think, I think this is really interesting.

(15:17):
This, this relationship between,you know, the digital and the
subscription services and the human touch.
I mean, we'll talk about this a bit more later potentially.
But I think when you, when you talk about loyalty, which is one
of the subjects I tend to talk on, I don't, I don't really
believe loyalty exists. I don't really believe customer
loyalty exists because I think we often equate what we think is
loyalty to usefulness. And it sounds really obvious to

(15:38):
say, but it's easily forgotten that your job as a company is to
stay more useful to your customers than the competitors
and the alternatives. And as soon as someone else
comes along and is more useful than you, they'll go elsewhere.
And that usefulness could be price, it could be the quality
of the product, it could be availability, it could be
socially. I mean, you look at Tesla,
they've become a lot more usefulrecently.

(15:59):
The cars haven't changed, but they're less useful to people
now because they don't signify what people want them to signify
any more about them. So it's a very, very fragile
thing. And so, you know, when we have
some of these subscription models and this technology that
exists to help build some of this kind of loyalty in inverted
commas, it's another way of being useful.
It's another way of creating usefulness for people.

(16:20):
But you can't rely on that. The reason I kind of push
against the word loyalty is because I think it means that
leaders end up taking their customers for granted.
They tend up, they end up believing and presuming their
customers are loyal because that's the language they use
internally. They convince themselves they
are. And that's really dangerous
because you, you focus on winning customers and then you
stop trying to impress them. So we need to get this

(16:41):
relationship exactly right because where people are loyal
is with people, friends, family,football teams, communities.
I'm an Arsenal fan. Nothing said.
We're going to change that. However bad, yeah, however bad
they end up getting. From the podcast.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just thought I'd get out there.
And just on that point, so yeah,some of our our research stats
as well, I think 31% of compute consumers are very or somewhat

(17:03):
likely to switch to a competitorvenue or brand.
And I think that it just shows the how fragile loyalty is.
Yeah. And yeah, it can be, it can be
volatile. But yeah, I mean, just on the
human touch in our element, we, we did a brand campaign a kind
of a few years ago about we're here for you and talking about I
guess the technology impact. And for us, we should be

(17:28):
blending into the background. And we did a whole lot where
there was a whole host the, the board and the members of our
team got painted. And and that's the whole purpose
is our tech shouldn't stand out front and foremost.
It's about the venue, it's aboutthe servers, it's about that
experience. We should be in the background,
but given the right information to the right time, with ease and

(17:50):
simplicity to really help just improve that experience.
I was gonna say cuz keeping it human as we were just talking
about that in a tech term, it's difficult, right, Because you
have to build a physical most ofthe times a physical as a pause.
There's a product to touch or there's a hand held to held at
the table, whatever it might be.But how, how hard is that then
when you're building technology to make sure that you actually

(18:10):
achieve that because without becoming part of the problem,
because the journey needs to be seamless for the user, both on
the Pizza Pizza Pilgrim server and also on the on the customer
end. I think it's about continually
getting creative and innovating as to what it looks like.
Yes, there may always be any element of physical hardware
there, whether that looks like akiosk, a pause, a tablet, a
phone. Obviously size and format

(18:32):
changes. But again, for us, it's about
making sure that the journey forthe server or the staff is as
easy as it can be and how can weimprove that?
How can we make it quicker? How can we give them what they
need about a consumer or serve the right choices or check the
right allergens or be able to know actually the kitchen is

(18:52):
maxed right now, so we need to turn off any kind of incoming
delivery orders or. So again, it's just all about
walking through that experience with our customers and really
listening to our customers. And I think that's something
that we, I wouldn't say we'll maybe not say that we have loyal
customers. We.
Don't believe there's loyalty, but we have very long standing
customers and I think that's oneof the things we're really proud

(19:14):
of. It is only less and we listen to
what everyone's pain point. Is, but in John's terms, maybe
you're useful to them, right? Well, I think it's useful.
And also I think there's an interesting separation here
between human and humanity, which obviously because I've
wrote a book called The Human Experience, everyone presumes
that all I'm caring about is just humans and we have to get
back to kind of human service. And it's not that, but it's

(19:34):
about making sure the tech we use has humanity built within
it. That could be as simple as the
language that you use, the way things are described.
You know, that's as true. Is it on a menu as it is in
anything else? Like are you just writing and
speaking in a way that people understand?
Pete's Pilgrim to see this really, really well, but also
just thinking about your own customer and the situation
they're going to be. And I, about 3 years ago, I went

(19:56):
to Bill's in, I think it was in Brighton a few years ago and we
had a big, there was like 12 of us.
It was like Cousins, everyone was there.
I had this big lunch. Food was great.
You know, it took a couple of hours.
And at the end they bought over a little kind of feedback tablet
for me, like a phone. Could you give us feedback?
And they wanted me to go throughevery single item that we'd
ordered and rate it. And that just shows a complete

(20:16):
lack of humanity because that was about, you know.
He's on the podcast tomorrow, the MD.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You can ask him about it. Yeah, I know.
I think. No, I know.
I know exactly who that is. Yeah.
No, but I tell and I think that's, that's a really great
example, isn't it, of not understanding or of where
you're, where emotionally you'reat the end of a meal.
That's it. Because at the end of a meal you
want to go, right? I mean, you want to pay and go.

(20:38):
Yeah, it's the best part of the meal.
Yeah, it is really. It's the bit where it's over.
Yeah, so. Do you know what, even not to
lay the point, but even if they changed, they just said just
tell us what the what the best and the worst dish was.
You had even that would be better because that understands
at least some of that humanity rather than just list and rank
everything. So it's exactly that.
It's understanding the humanity,the emotional situation
someone's in. Simplicity.

(20:58):
The simplicity. And I think payments have gone
that journey or I'm going off a little bit, but payments have
gone that journey in terms of the way we pay at the end of a
meal. Everyone hates to queue, hates
to pay, hates to order, hates towait.
And I think payments now are so or can be, if you buy the right
tech, seamless in terms of checking out when you're
finished. You know, you can do it in
Amazon, you can do it in retail.Hostiles is getting there now
where you can kind of check out really quick on your own without

(21:19):
any humans. And I think that's that
understanding what everyone's done with payments will
hopefully spread across the other piece of tech we have.
And John, while I've got you, you wrote something in your book
about revenue and it comes from decisions made in your favor.
Yeah. What are the biggest, what do
you think are the biggest drivers though decisions in
today? I suppose in this climate we're
in. It's a really hard question to

(21:42):
answer. Sorry.
No, no, it's good and I'm not going to answer it.
OK, goodnight. It's a really, really hard
question because and one of the,for me, the biggest things in
hospitality is really understanding these different
segments. There's different groups of
people that are going to want different things.
And that's why, you know, going back to that original point,
it's so important to understand what matters to your customers

(22:02):
because you, you have to understand the drivers of the
decisions of the particular customer types you're trying to
attract. Because that's going to look
different to my kids than it is to me, than it is to my mum.
Like I go to Pizza Express stillwith my kids, not because I
think it's the best pizza, because I know within two
minutes they're going to have dough balls and carrot sticks in
front of them because really good at getting food in front of

(22:24):
my kids. So for them that's really
important. But you know, five hours later,
if I'm going out with friends oryou know, the next day, if I'm
taking a client out for dinner, my just my whole decision making
framework is entirely different.It could be about novelty, It
could be about certainty. If I'm taking a client out, I
want to know the service in the food is going to be really good.
You know, if I'm going out with friends, you might want novelty,

(22:47):
you might want something different.
Now, of course, to your point earlier, Ruth says as well, it's
get tighter, different things kind of ladder up and ladder
down. But still it's about
understanding what really matters to people and then
understanding what they're comparing you to, understanding
those alternatives because they're not just comparing you
to, I mean, you would know, the M and S2 dine in with 10 LB

(23:07):
thing, which we, we worked with them on many years ago.
And you know, the insight from that was that people weren't
comparing the ready meal, M&S with the ready meal at Tesco.
They're comparing the ready mealat M&S with eating out, eating
at home, not eating, cooking forthemselves, etcetera, etcetera.
You're very familiar with this. So it's a, it's a more nuanced
their answer, I think, because you have to start by
understanding who you're for, then understanding the context

(23:29):
they're going to be and then understanding what's driving the
decision because the same personcould have two different
drivers. I still think you answered it.
It was good enough. Was it OK?
I thought I needed to. And now I'm looking at the rest
of my questions. I don't want to say the word
loyalty anymore. That's why that's.
Why I like to put it in? Early, so I'm going to say
anyway. Yeah, well, Ruth in pizza
pilgrims then when you're looking at these customers and
decision making they're making, how are you driving?

(23:52):
I'm gonna say usefulness, usefulness of God and loyalty.
Not that again. How are you driving?
Loyalty, I suppose. Or how are you attempting to
bring these people back again? I think for us, we know we're
not the cheapest in the pizza market and we've become very
comfortable with that. I think what we really try and
deliver is an exceptional experience with good warm
service and the food has to be be the star of the show.

(24:16):
So we take we always say internally that we take
everything seriously, but the wetake pizza.
We take nothing seriously but the pizza sorry.
And by that we mean that we wantevery touch point that the
customer has to be full of joy that everything that they engage

(24:36):
with should of made it memorableexperience.
But that pizza has to be the best pizza because you're you're
only as good as the pizza that you serve in the sense that if
they have one bad experience, they're not coming back.
The people are fickle, so we can't rest on our laurels.
But we also have to look at the 360 experience to to warrant the

(24:56):
cost because we work really hardon securing the finest
ingredients from Italy, from training our teams, from paying
them more than most hospitality brands pay their team.
We're AB Corp. Does that really mean something
to us? Like we invest a lot of money in
things that matter to us as a brand.
They may not mean anything to the customer, but we need to

(25:19):
fund it somehow. So we have to make the customer
see the value in our our brand. Yeah.
And I think that simplicity and hostility, sometimes the actual,
the joy you called it is so easyto do, but so easily forgotten
sometimes just not easy. I'm not belittling people being
good at service, but I think that's what hostility is, right?
Just make sure people have a great time.
It's very rare you say, oh, I'm going back there because we had

(25:39):
a really good time. It's normally the food was great
or something like that. And because people just take it
as a given that you should have a good time when you go to a
restaurant. So I think that actually doing
that consistently and doing it well is very hard.
And I think from I mean, I've seen some trends recently,
they've shown us across different parts of the country
how experiences is considered different.
Like you're saying, some people have different opinions in

(26:00):
different areas around differentdayparts about why they want to
dine. And while I'm on data, Gillian,
do you have some trends? I'm hopefully you're going to.
You should look at me that, yeah.
Yeah. No, we do.
Because you've got what? How many, how many venues do you
have? Do you know in total in zonal?
Customers, we have over 17,000. Customers, that's a lot, OK.
And what kind of features are I suppose, what kind of experience

(26:21):
is driving them to come back? I suppose what what is seeing
people return. Well, I, I think in relation to
I guess trends and what people are looking for different
things, there's been quite a lot.
So I think you spoke, you spoke about it kind of people
searching for the experiences, whether it's like going out for
tasting menus, competitive socialising elements are really
up, bottomless brunches, which are my particular families.

(26:42):
I think there's just there's a lot of different kind of trends
out there as to what what is being offered and what's making
people go out and come back to some of the venues.
Yeah, I think my, my Mrs. WinnerWhatsApp group and someone said
we're going for Christmas dinneragain at the at the Celtic
Manor, which it sounds grand right in the big ballroom, but
we've done it every year for thepast four years.
And I think everyone in the group said, come, just do

(27:03):
something a bit more interesting, a bit like because
Kerry just went to a garage night, bottomless brunch or
something, which was I think a different experience entirely.
But I think people are looking for that because the money is so
scarce or so important now, moreimportant than it was that
people are looking for that. And, and I'm going to flip back
into B Cup quickly with you, Ruth, because I held a panel
about a year ago about purpose in restaurants.

(27:24):
Does it matter? Do people care?
And it sounds really brutal because you've just invested a
lot of time and money into B Corp, but you alluded to a
little bit then. Are you seeing a difference in
how customers engage with the brand because you're now B Corp?
Do people bring it up? And I'm sure not everyone does,
but is there, is there a wider kind of awareness of it?
I think the reality is probably about 5% of our customers really

(27:46):
like care. It's very small portion, but for
us that doesn't mean something per SE to us because it's
becoming AB Corp was never abouttrying to win loyalty or to win
customers. It was about creating a
framework that protected the brand to make the right
decisions, the communities we move into and most importantly

(28:08):
our team. So I think we became AB Corp not
to impress customers. We did it to keep ourselves
accountable and on track to makesure that our purpose was at the
forefront of all of our decisionmaking.
And I think that that governancepiece has been invaluable to us.
We've seen team retention go up dramatically.
We are attracting the right people that want to work from a

(28:31):
young age because actually surprisingly 18 to 24 year olds
want to work for B Corp companies.
So I think we'll see a shift in that behaviour and that need for
brands to BB Corps or doing something with purpose will rise
over the next 5 to 10 years. But I think for now it's about
keeping our brand account. I think the reason, I think it's

(28:54):
really important, the reason youdid it wasn't for it was because
it's the right thing to do when your mind is the right thing to
do, which is the right way to do.
And John, do you see ethics playing a big role in, I suppose
what people are spending? Because I'm trying to work out
if I can be really honest, if I would say I wouldn't dine at
Gillian's restaurant because shewasn't sustainable or.
You know, so I don't, I mean, yeah, that's great.

(29:16):
Just to start. There's a brilliant answer that
I was really, it's really refreshing to hear because
that's exactly right. I think organizations have
forgotten that their role is to have a strong role in society, a
positive role in society, regardless of if it's going to
make you more more money or not.So it's so refreshing to hear.
It's also helpful to hear because no, I don't think
customers are really making choices based on ethics
necessarily. It's quite far down the list.

(29:37):
But a more helpful way of me explaining that if you think
about how customers make decisions, they often make them
in, in order three different levels.
The 1st is reasons to avoid a place.
So, you know, they might not go there because there's been a
really good ethical, really goodethical organization, but they
might avoid it if they've been involved in a scandal.
So, you know, reasons to avoid, then reasons to choose.

(30:00):
And that might be because you have incredible pizzas and
wonderful staff and great environments, but then reasons
to stay and reasons to stay are often the types of things a
little bit more ethical that reinforce your worldview.
So you probably wouldn't ever choose Pizza Pilgrims because
it's AB Corp. You wouldn't avoid it because it
wasn't one, but if you use it often and you really like it,
the fact it is is that you know it's something that means

(30:22):
something to you will just make you like it a bit more and might
just might just make you a little bit more sticky.
So I think that's the right way.To I suppose it makes them an
advocate as well, right? So if you're already a fan, so
if you're already happy to go there every week in Europe,
you're an advocate, maybe that just increases that, you know
that iceberg theory when people complain, it goes spreads
around. Maybe the opposite factor
happens that actually I love them so much now I love them
even more. I'm going to tell more people,

(30:42):
you know, it's just that that kind of.
It's just another, it's another policy.
If you're doing it for the rightreasons, as Ruth and the team
are, then it's just another positive reason to want to kind
of engage with the brand. And also it's just good because
I think consumers overall are fed up.
When you're particularly lookingat things like climate change,
for example, a fed up are being told it's their responsibility
to do something about it rather than businesses taking it on as

(31:03):
their responsibility. And then consumers don't have
to. You know, the other day I
ordered something and I think itkind of which delivery brand now
probably good in case I get it wrong and you get sued.
It. Was it was something like you
can pay £5 to have it delivered or you can pay £7 to have it
delivered in a electric vehicle.And I won't swear on the

(31:25):
podcast, but I was like, that isno, you, you deliver it with an
electric vehicle and work out your business model.
Yeah. So I don't have to pay more to
do the right thing. And make me feel.
Bad by making me feel bad for not doing it.
So, yeah, So I think, I think it's thinking about those
decisions at those different levels helps to work out where
those things. We're all off to order a pizza
by electric bike. And Gillian, in terms of your, I

(31:47):
suppose not just the zonal customer, but people generally
investing in technology, do you are people start to put money
behind sustainability? And maybe I'm trying to think
what kind of features could you have I suppose that would really
track what people are doing? I mean, I think there's a lot in
relation a we're so we're working with a lot of partners
that are in featuring sustainability and planting

(32:07):
trees and things like that. And I think it's becoming more
and more. But obviously, yeah, people are
very price sensitive. And I think the expectations
that people have, it's, I guess the primary focus is I guess
servicing whatever needs they need that they're trying to
fulfill with that technology project.
And if there is an element that they can feed into that.

(32:30):
I mean, a lot of our sales processes that we go through
now, whether it's tender documentations and things like
that, those questions are in there.
They're coming up more and more often, not every time, but it is
certainly becoming more prominent and that we're seeing
it and our customers are lookingfor that.
Yeah, I saw a guy who's launching a thing called Marker,
which is like, you know how you have your five star food rating

(32:50):
for you when you in Wales anywhere?
We have it everywhere, right when you walk in you see the
five stars. So you know if that or is it 5
circles? I'm not sure when the way you
went out if they're clean or not.
And he's done the same sustainability there from
Newcastle. They've started this thing, but
they're they are literally doingthat when you go around the
venues, they're having two star and they can't get off the
ground. So everyone loves it, everyone
wants to do it, but the reality is, as you said, it's further

(33:12):
down the list. So it's a, it's a bit
disappointing and on disappointment, a consumer
surprise. Is there a moment, I suppose,
where consumer behaviour is particularly surprised to all of
you has particularly surprised you?
So we talked a little bit about that.
I mean, I'm surprised by the, I get it, the dining out earlier
that it's, it's a shock to see it's happening.

(33:32):
I understand why. Is there anything else that
you've got that you know about in terms of any kind of stat or
anything that's helped you think, Oh my God, that's
different. I did not think that would
happen. If you haven't, don't worry.
Yeah, because I actually think Iwent to a totally downer
different path on this question and I was thinking more about me
as a consumer in. My yeah, that's fine.
Yeah, well, I think. So, so I guess from a flip side

(33:56):
in technology service net givingthe and using technology, we
recently I was in Lisbon with friends and we booked a table.
So Europeans, I mean we, we eat earlier than Europeans do.
And we booked this table party of eight, 7:00 and we bounced up
and my friend booked under both our maiden name and our married
name. And the front of house server

(34:16):
came out and asked the question if we'd booked it.
And she was like, no. And then we realized we did.
And obviously we were mortified.But it was the server's attitude
towards us because yes, the restaurant was very quiet at
7:00 PM and we're the only ones there.
But yeah, it was, I guess her attitude towards us.
It was really, we then we felt really uncomfortable.

(34:37):
And actually I've got a few friends that are now going to
Lisbon. And we had a lovely time.
The food was excellent, so that's not something I would now
recommend because I just feel like that experience really
tainted it for me. She made my friend feel really
awful and actually we were trying to do a good thing by
planning ahead. We had it booked and so yes.
I find it and having been in theindustry for years, I find that

(34:57):
first welcome you have. Have you booked before you even
step across the threshold? Just like wow yeah I might, I
might, oh I might not. Can I just say hello first?
I find it a very odd anti commercial thing to do I.
Had one the other day, I was just meeting a friend, I won't
know in the restaurant, but one of the restaurants in Canary
Wharf and we sat down and the waiter just came over and quite
loudly just went. Have you got any allergies?

(35:19):
And my friend just went afternoon.
That's when the training's really working right there.
OK, Like the? First words he said to us was
gone. OK.
He's definitely just had allergen change.
What about you, Ruth? Mine's like subscription models
being like shocked. You or.
Shocked me how it's like become such a thing like I don't know

(35:42):
if it's just me got ADHD and like a lot of range he's.
Got 20 subscriptions. Yeah, no, I hate subscriptions
because you get locked into something and it's like every
month the same product comes to you and it's just like so
boring. I think people have learned that
actually commercially, obviouslypeople get sticky really quick
in those things and not because they're useful actually or not

(36:02):
because they're loyal, because they forget.
Gym memberships are a really good example of people being
shamed into staying in a 12 or 24 month contract because you
don't want to go down there and cancel.
I don't know if it's still like that now.
I used to run gyms. I was one of those people.
But yeah, I agree. I think subscription is is
genius and evil. Yeah, the same cost.
Just like the monotony of it, it's like you're getting the

(36:24):
same deodorant delivered every month.
You're getting the same productson your like, even if you like
get your shopping delivered at home, it's the same products
they recommend to you. It's just becoming very much
like. You're not getting the surprise
and delight. Exactly.
And I like to try new things. I feel like there needs to be
another subscription model whereyou just get a random box of
shit and you're like, what's there?

(36:46):
Like give me something new. We'll make that happen.
I'll work that out. And I think, John, have you seen
the same? If we're able to put a
scientific, scientific hat on it, I suppose our consumers, are
we leaning more that way? It's just think subscript
because of the nature of tech and Amazon, all the other stuff
that's come on board over the last 10 years.
Do you think that people are, that's why we're going there?

(37:06):
Is it is it because we're almostbeing forced there, or is it a
human nature thing? There's a bit of both.
I mean, it has to be available as an option for people to use
it. So the fact that they're far
more available now than before makes a big difference, I think.
I think there's a great thing, well, awful thing, but called
the paradox of choice that many of you will know about.
A book written by a guy called Barry Schwartz maybe 25 years

(37:27):
ago now, 20 years ago now, and talks about the balance of where
choice is good and bad. There's a famous study in there,
the jam study and you know, the table they put out a table with
lots of different jams on and the table had 23 jams on, got a
lot more attention, but the table that had six jams on sold
a lot more because you just get cognitive overload.
Same thing if you go to a train station, you try and buy a train

(37:49):
ticket, you just get cognitive overload of trying to pick the
right one. So I think now when you look
across all different parts of life, if you look across, you
know, just trying to watch TV, you know, you need, you know,
Disney and Netflix and this guy and all these different things.
Apple, you know the amount of services Apple do.
So I think there's a need to like really simplify because
we've got so much choice. That's the downside of so much
digital technology, the downsideof having a phone that can have

(38:11):
unlimited apps and unlimited services on a number of parking
apps you have etcetera, etcetera.
The number of food delivery apps, the number of restaurant
apps we were talking about before that you might have now.
So I think there there's a real kind of overload, A cognitive
overload coming on to people at the moment.
And that's before you get to social media, you know, you talk
actually about people wanting totry new things.

(38:32):
One of the reason people want totry new things is because
they're constantly shown all thenew things they should be,
should be trying and made you feel bad about not trying all of
those new things and you haven'tgot something to talk about with
your friends. So all of this comes together in
in quite a weight on people's shoulders, quite a weight on
people's brains, I think. And subscriptions then suggest a
a simple way through that. But I do think, to Ruth's point,

(38:55):
you think there's a tipping point of that where you end up
with loads of subscriptions you forget about and you feel bad
about those, or you end up kind of thinking, well, I've had the
same thing for so long now and Iwant to try, I want to try
something new. So it's a very kind of fine
balance to be made between not just relying on that and, you
know, resting on your laurels with it, but giving customers a
sense of simplicity to help themmake decisions every every day

(39:19):
really. And, and there's a lot of it, as
you mentioned, right? And, and obviously it's never
been more personalized in most cases, like people are doing a
really good job. I think the tech guys are really
supporting the operates to help personalize that journey.
You could pre ordering, click and collect at table, off table,
on premise, off premise, drive through.
I mean, there's a lot, right? And I think I, I don't know
what's really and it's probably a different answer for, I

(39:40):
suppose for a different set of use cases.
But I'll start with you, Ruth, What what do you think is really
kind of people are over hyping? I know you said subscription
but, and I think you mentioned this before, what really is
moving the needle in terms of bringing people back or driving?
I hate to use the word John loyalty.
I feel like I should put 50P in the jar every time I say that
now. I feel like pay at table is

(40:03):
actually driving a better customer experience.
Like we said earlier, like paying the bill.
Is the worst part of every meal so let's make it as seamless and
as painless as possible. Still not quite as bought into
order and pay a table, which is sorry to say that I just think
it removes that human element ofgoing to a pizzeria that I
personally struggle with understanding.

(40:27):
And I think what's over hyped isI think people put a lot of
pressure on personalization of content and actually like if
your brand messaging remains strong and you do understand
your customer well, then personalization is 8 different
steps of creating one e-mail that you could have saved if you

(40:47):
actually knew who your customer was.
And I think that people are overhyping personalization and
customization. I know it's very much against
what everyone else is saying, but it is causing more and more
stress and workload in marketingteams that it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be that over complicated.
Well, it's interesting to see. I mean, if you talk to Victor,
who runs a company called Data Hall, she'll tell, you know,
talk about ROI around those kindof e-mail campaigns and stuff.

(41:10):
I do think it's interesting to see actually all this effort on
personalization, customization. Do you get the return that you'd
expect from a blasting out an e-mail to 40,000 people?
Apparently not, but it'd be good.
It'd be good to know. What do you think, Gillian?
Because I think that because you're on the tech side, right?
And you're looking at obviously you're building products
constantly or iterating your products constantly.
And are you, do you kind of lookat it sometimes from the look at

(41:32):
your customers thinking, God, they're really concentrating on
these certain things. But actually this is the one
thing that we always hear about is that is winning for them or
is doing well for them. Sorry, can I just touch on your
point about, I guess the knowingyour customers because we also
own Airship and Toggle and I think we've got Dan coming on
one of the podcasts. That's gonna be a fun episode,
yeah. But actually he, he was talking

(41:54):
about that and the fact that from ACRM perspective, and we're
sending out kind of 20 million customers each week or 20
million emails each week. We want to get down to a point
where it it's, it's a very smallproportion of that.
And that is about actually knowing that that a vast
majority of that base is dormant.
Yeah. And that's the point where,
yeah, you need to know who is actually clicking through and
opening, engaging with the brandto then, yeah, get that value

(42:18):
back. That's a key point, isn't We
just said then actually to the question I asked that that
engagement part is actually moreimportant and probably not hyped
up enough compared to because often it's kind of like
guarantee numbers, you know, like I've got a database of
50,000. We do this, we do that.
But actually the reality is 1% or 2% of them really love you
and are kind of responding. Yeah, and the rest don't even
open your emails. Or or already your restaurant

(42:39):
once and haven't came back? Yeah.
Who what is it you're getting back from?
Are they coming back? Is it the frequency of visits or
is it. Yeah, getting them back in the
restaurant to make sure they spend more money?
It's yeah. Same to you John.
What do you think on the on the on the over hyped?
So, so I think on personalization, I would really
agree with this, but I think there's a really new, there's a
nuance in it. And it's not to say that you

(43:00):
don't want things that are rightfor you.
It's just to say that the thingsthat are right for you might
also be right for another million people.
And I think there's this real effort being important to
customers as resources at the moment try and make things kind
of super personalized to them. Part of the challenge with it,
if I've got time to tell you a quick story, part of it, part of
the challenge with. It I've got the edit button,
that's fine. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and that was the story. So part of the challenge with it

(43:22):
is that that people don't reallyunderstand themselves.
We have a version of ourselves we believe to be true but don't
really understand it. We did some work a while ago
with a company called Samworth Brothers, a big food
manufacturer. So do all the, I think they used
to do all the sandwiches for M&Sand Tesco and things like that.
And as part of this we got to goand study.
We were trying to look at the future of convenience food,

(43:43):
future of ready meals. We got to go and have dinner
with people in their homes. They made us dinner and then we
went shopping with them and I went to interview one lady, she
was mid 40s, yoga instructor, a proper kind of body as a temple
kind of person, and said she would never use any ready meals,
never use any convenience food. And in her house it kind of
checked out. She had lots of recipe books,

(44:03):
lots of little ingredients I'd never heard of.
Had a great dinner, and then an hour later we went shopping in
Waitrose. So we're going up and down the
aisles and we get to the ready meal aisle and I think, well,
we're going to fly down here andshe throws in a ready chopped
Mashed potato and they're in a ready chopped carrot and ready
chopped red onion. And she kind of said, I kind of
gave her a funny look and she went, well, I'm a busy person.

(44:24):
I've not got time to peel and chopped vegetables.
Anyway, we carried on and we'd get to the end of the
supermarket where all the good stuff is, you know, the alcohol
and the confectionery and again,I think what we're going to fly
past here because you know, yourbody is a 10 point etcetera.
Does she swept in armful zeco and chocolate.
It was like a supermarket. Week.
If you remember. That.
Just like, is it, Ruth? And Yeah.

(44:46):
And yeah. And I said, well, how does that
match up with your healthy lifestyle?
And she said, oh, this is for girls night on a Friday night,
This doesn't count. And what I've always loved about
that, a bit like your question before actually, about
surprising consumer behaviour, is when I've done the interview
bit with her, she wasn't lying to me.
She was just telling me about the version of herself that she
believes to be true. But we all have times where we

(45:09):
take a break from being ourselves, you know?
And so it's hard work. Yeah.
You know, it's hard work. So unless you specifically ask
her that question, you're never getting that out of the
interview. You only get that from observing
them. And I think this is a very long
way round of kind of illustrating this point about
personalization. Because even if when I open up
the app, you say, you know, tellme the five things you're
interested in, I'll probably saythe five things I think I ought

(45:30):
to be saying I'm interested in. But then, you know, if you go
and look on my Twitter feed for example, it's probably just a
load of footballers, you know, missing open goals and things
like that, which I'm probably not going to put on there.
So you have to have this observation.
You have to help people understand what really matters
to them. And that's why I think the best
form of personalization is when it's done for you based on the
actual behaviours you've exhibited, rather than tell us

(45:53):
what you think is important and then we'll tell you just what
you've told us. That feels very hard work and
not particularly useful to get to the outcome the customer
wants. Fascinated.
And finally, I just thought this, we always ask at the end
of the podcast, what's the next big thing?
It's a rule you have to ask these questions.
But in terms of behavioral shifts and consumer behavior, I

(46:14):
mean, God knows. I mean, where do we go?
Because if you think about it, even from I'm trying to think
from like I'm trying to think 2019, I think it's gone in a
massive journey. The industry has anyway, just
purely because we have to for a start.
But then obviously tech is now getting better and better.
AI is now going to drive a lot of change as well.
Wait, what do you think the nextshift might be?
Anyone can jump in here if you want to, but you got you got a

(46:36):
plan here. Gillian has only.
Got a plan? Well, well, I don't know if
we've got where we do have a. Plan.
Yes, there's only got a plan reference.
Back to I think the change in relation to I guess time and
going out earlier I think is a big thing we've seen recently in
the research. Obviously the the booking tables
earlier going out earlier only at the weekend my I was at my
sister's second hand and we wentto a daytime disco maybe I'm.

(46:58):
Sure. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think, yeah, obviously the
day parts that we saw before arechanging and I think, yeah,
it's, it's certainly hard and kind.
Of that's a bit like prior, I don't know if you know this
John, but most budgets and restaurant sales are based on
prior year. So prior to the pandemic, it was
very much not a steady prior year, but you pretty much know
compared to last year, we'll do 3% more.

(47:19):
We budget this year, but actually since 2020, I don't
think there is a like for like or a prior year where we're
looking at you go, oh, that was normal that year.
Yeah. Because it just hasn't happened
for so long. So I, I do think that's a big
shift in the industry where you can't really compare apples for
apples at the moment. I think it's a bit different.
I mean, I'm asking myself, I'm answering my own questions now.
I shouldn't be doing that. I meant to be the quiet one.
What do you think, Ruth? I think there's going to be huge

(47:41):
focus on accessibility. Like I feel like more and more
customers are really crying out for menus where they don't have
to hack their dietary preferences or religious.
Or given 8 menus. Or given 8 menus.
Yeah. So it's like I think that people
will expect products to be more readily available and menus to

(48:03):
be more accessible to all. And there'll be a real high
expectation from the customer. So I think as they want to spend
less, they're going to expect more from the experiences that
they are investing in. So I think we're going to see a
huge shift in customer satisfaction, taking a dip to
then have to navigate that space.

(48:24):
And can't wait. Yeah, it's having right?
Isn't it? And yet one of our stats in the
research actually completely echoes that.
I think it's 52% of consumers have higher expectations now
with going through the cost of living.
Crisis. So yeah, just.
Approves it. I think there's a bit of an
John. Are you right in saying there's
a bit of an impatience now with humans?
As in, we don't think we should wait anymore for anything.
Yeah, it's definitely this kind of age of impatience that we're

(48:46):
in. I think, again, it kind of
probably ties into the experience you're trying to
have. So I often say, I kick back
quite a lot against organizations that just say that
they're one of the things they want to deliver is speed, you
know, because it's, you know, ifyou're wanting to eat food, your
perception of what you want speed wise in McDonald's is
different to Michelin star. Like in Michelin, slow down,

(49:08):
take your time. I want to enjoy the experience.
McDonald's I want to get, I wantto get in and out.
So I do think there, I do think there is this impatience.
I think the the intolerance and allergen point is really
interesting. One of our colleagues at work
has got some some intolerances and that's been fascinating
actually, just seeing how different restaurants deal with
that. The best ones that come along
and say that here's the menu. I've just scribbled out what you
can have and the worst one, onesthat bring out this massive

(49:30):
plastic folder and go well, sortit out for yourself and, and
leave through. And even then it's not up today.
I, I, I think the, the thing I think is great.
I mean, I'm as a non hospitalityperson here, I'm quite
interested in this kind of slight mix of business and
leisure and, and the different ways people are using
restaurants for different things.
You know I travel a lot for workand I always have this site like

(49:50):
Bill Bryce and Extreme that I'm going to go into the restaurant
for the evening and have some food and do a bit of work and do
some writing and you know while the evening away and I think
I've yet to find any kind of restaurant I've gone into and
opened my laptop and not felt immediately uncomfortable and
immediately like I'm taking up atable and I shouldn't be there.
Even last night I was in a pub and I have a laptop open.

(50:10):
Then it turned out a pub quiz was going on and the the looks I
got you were cheating from the pub quiz.
Google on people like looking athim.
Yeah, unfortunately I was on my own and there was a team called
all by myself, so whenever they.Got.
The school they just kept looking over, that's what me.
Brilliant. But.
Yeah, so I think there's something.
Yeah. He.
Set you up with that though, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think there's something,

(50:31):
there's something about that just around the different ways
people are using, same with airports and restaurants, pubs,
how you make different groups ofpeople feel comfortable.
Yeah, I think the flexibility, the expectation around like
Airbnb and everything now when you want to go away for a week,
you don't have to just book a hotel anymore.
You can go in someone's house. You have to ask them obviously,
and pay first. But yeah, but yeah, that
ability's down. Personally, I definitely am

(50:53):
using the marketplaces when I'm out browsing for stuff.
And I think that that's a big shift.
And I think that will and the generation coming up of growing
up with the iPhone, we'll definitely have a voice to say.
And I think where you're seeing the allergen and the
expectation. I mean, we had Sonny's on the
podcast last week, guy who's opening a first gluten free fast
food restaurant called Sonny's. He's called Sonny about Richard
Branson's backing it. And you can just see he's going

(51:16):
to be a safe haven for people. It's McDonald's for people
who've gluten free and just thatkind of behavior and that right
now we're like, but I think in five years we're like, of course
you should be doing that. That should be not even a
thought. So, yeah, very interesting.
Right. Last one is, and you can't say
usefulness, but you can if you want.
You have to describe loyalty in one word, what you can say.
John, I'll start with you. I'll go with fragile.

(51:38):
Fragile. Okay, I was gonna.
Say fickle. Fickle.
That's good. I would say essential.
I think there's obviously there's a lot of data out there
from a technology perspective. Customers can't understand the
frequency of visits and how you serve their customers better and
how you get that average transaction spend up and yeah,
and the current climate, yeah, essentially.

(51:59):
Essential Yeah, that's right. I think we used to have a stat
in colleges, 1.2 people, they came, customers used to come 1.2
* a year to see us, which we were like what?
And we see our regulars quite a lot.
But actually when you panned it all out, that was the reality.
So our mission was always to getto 1 point 51.6, which is trying
to explain the teams they like. You want half a person to come
on like, no. So yeah, it was got a bit
confusing, but yeah, you're right.

(52:21):
I think. I think the whole point of this
conversation actually, and the further conversations we'll have
on the episodes are around driving that frequency and trial
back into our restaurants and bars and hotels or whatever we
do, but doing it in a way that actually people want to use this
again and become useful. So I've loved having you all
here. It's been a pleasure.
Gillian, you're staying with me all week, so I'm sorry about
that. But John, if people want to get
hold of you and kind of find outwhat you do and dig a bit

(52:43):
deeper, how to get hold of you. Yeah, I'm probably on LinkedIn
mostly. So John JC was on LinkedIn or
the the company is the foundation.com where you can
find the book in all good book shops.
Or just spot a guy in a pub on his own with a laptop.
Probably. Maybe.
Yeah. Team on the pub quick ranting.
About loyalty, yeah. And Ruth B caught Ruth.
How could you? Hold on, I'd say LinkedIn but I

(53:03):
never checked my inbox so. Just come to the restaurant.
Right now, me at [e-mail].
There you go or go and have a pizza.
Go and go and visit them. Look, thank you very much guys.
Have a lovely rest of your week.That was a tech on Toast special
and with Zonal and we shall see you all soon.