January 10, 2024 • 59 mins
Alicia is powerful, bubbly, and shining, but that sparkle came at a cost. As a child, with no real rights and no voice, she learned to navigate the complexities of an abusive home and what could have been a life-crushing experience. She learned to survive—on her terms. Now, navigating through parenthood and a career in social justice, she must continue her journey to liberation and healing.
If you are a parent, if you are a generational curse-breaker, if you are a survivor, this one’s for you.
When Alicia sits down on her pink couch to recount her 40 years of life, she doesn't just share a story—she hands us the keys to her soul. We're given an unfiltered glimpse into her evolution from a young activist impassioned by a movie, to an adult deeply committed to justice and longing to leave a legacy of good ancestry. Her early endeavors to fight for what's right, illuminated by a candid reflection on her journey, encourage us all to be fully present in our pursuit of a better world.
Tell Her This is a podcast of honest, heartfelt, and real stories from women and for women who live real lives and are as messy and complex as they are beautiful.
No advice. No self-help. Just perspective and stories.
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This episode includes music by Maya Rogers. If you'd like to hear more from Maya and support her new project, Orion and The Remembering Tree click here!
Thanks for listening! Please subscribe, leave a rating, and follow Tell Her This on all platforms @tellherthispodcast
This episode includes music by Maya Rogers. Click here to hear more from Maya and support her new project, Orion and The Remembering Tree!
Thanks for listening! Please subscribe, leave a rating, and follow Tell Her This on all platforms @tellherthispodcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rochelle (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Tell Her This podcast.
I'm your host, Rochelle Rice.
Tell Her This is a storytellingpodcast.
No advice, no self-help, juststories from women who represent
people just like you and justlike me.
What began as a journey morethan 6,000 miles around the US
(00:21):
has continued to even moreincredible stories from women
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(00:43):
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Tell Her This.
The link is also in the shownotes.
Today's episode includesreferences to child sexual abuse
and suicide.
(01:03):
Sensitive listeners are advised.
All right, let's get started.
Alicia (01:15):
This is the Tell Her This podcast.
Why won't you unfold?
My name is Alicia Sanchez GilFreemyn and I am recently 40
years old.
Rochelle (01:33):
My friend Alicia is beautiful, bountiful and exudes
true Virgo energy in every waypossible.
To me she is focused and clearabout everything, from her
social and political convictionsto her personal aesthetic.
Her love for her sweet familyand friends is overflowing and
(01:57):
her commitment to the work ofliberation through organizing
and philanthropy is incredible.
And as we sat in her gorgeouslydecorated home office, I
learned that the woman before meis a fighter and every bit of
beauty I see in her was aproduct of survival.
Alicia (02:19):
I am like a more self-actualized person and that
is what feels really groundingtoday.
It's interesting because Iwould not have, I would never
have believed that.
I would say as like a part ofmy identity, one of the first
things that comes to mind withwho I am now as a mother.
I'm a mom, I'm a pretty goodfriend, I am a person who is
(02:48):
becoming, I am healing, I amyeah, I just feel like I'm
becoming more of myself and Idon't know, maybe there's
something about turning 40 thatjust flipped a switch but I feel
more at home in my identities,more at home in my body than I
(03:10):
possibly ever have before.
How I hope to be showing up inthis moment, how I'm working
towards showing up in thismoment, as I always think about
being a good ancestor, right,and so I'm like okay, like what
am I doing right now?
That like my child and theirfriends and perhaps their
(03:32):
children will remember not aslike a mother who sacrificed
everything, but as a person inthe world who was in deep
solidarity with other people inthe world, right, and so how I
hope that I am showing up inthis moment.
That's actually likeparticularly hard and I feel
like I've been saying that forlike the last six years.
(03:52):
Like it's just like this is areally hard moment, right, but
in this moment in particular,like I hope I'm a person who is
showing up in like a lot of love, but like not a saccharine,
superficial love, but like alove that is grounded in justice
and like doing what people need.
(04:15):
In this moment I hope that I'mshowing up as a person who is
like down to like fight for ourpeople.
I hope that I am showing up asa person when folks look back,
like you know, put it on thetombstone right.
Like you know that, like I wasthere right.
(04:38):
Like I showed up for my friends, I showed up for people that I
didn't know, I showed up insolidarity because I really
deeply believe that our likeboth our like lineages and also
our futures are really connectedto one another.
So that's how I hope that I'mshowing up in like these times,
like maybe in this particularmoment, while I'm sitting on my
(05:00):
pink couch surrounded by candlesand a blanket, a warm blanket,
I hope that I'm showing up aslike grounded and authentic and
just totally myself.
For me, there's somethingaround grappling with like what
(05:20):
have I done with the last 40years of my life, and what will
I do with the next 40 and thensome?
And how do I want to become agood ancestor?
Like, how do I do that now?
Right, like it's not somethingthat happens later, it's
something that you're doing inthis every moment.
Rochelle (05:35):
Alicia is funny and outspoken and natural carer, and
much of how she shows up in theworld is a result of childhood
experiences that wereinformative and empowering and
others that were deeply painfuland traumatizing.
Alicia (05:52):
I had a really tough childhood and in some ways I
feel like forged from thatroughness and I feel like this
story is like a great example ofhow I was always kind of a
fighter, you know and likedeeply concerned with and care
of, like the folks around me,and some of that is possibly who
(06:15):
I am.
Some of that possibly is atrauma response.
But I will share this storynonetheless, and the story is
that in 1993, I was 10 years oldor almost 10.
I might have been 10 when itactually came out.
The movie Free Willy came outand I went and saw it with my
family, in particular with myfather, and I was so hysterical
(06:42):
at the end of the movie I wassobbing, like, had to be removed
from the theater, sobbing by myfather and possibly secured,
I'm not sure.
I was just like hysterical, Iwas like sobbing.
I was in an absolute outrageand uproar about the treatment
of these whales and I wrote aletter to SeaWorld in Miami,
(07:06):
florida, which is where I grewup, telling them that they need
to release all the whales and Iwas demanding it and I didn't
get a risk.
I think I got a letter.
Actually, I think I got aletter with tickets to SeaWorld.
I'm pretty sure I shouldconfirm this with my mom.
I'm pretty sure we got a letterback like just thanking me for
(07:28):
my concern.
But you know, come see, thewhales are really well taken
care of.
But it's like such a.
It's such a.
I'm like a strong, unabidletter writer.
I like to write to Congress.
I like to make my voice heardand I feel like me at 10,.
This was like my firstexperience of feeling like that
was an injustice.
I mean, I had certainly seeninjustices before that moment,
(07:51):
but it felt like such a graveinjustice to the world that I
had to write a strongly wordedletter that my mom then mailed
for me to SeaWorld.
I was just incredibly outraged.
And I think the second storythat is like still kind of
legendary in my family is theamount of times that I rescued
(08:14):
dogs from the side of the roadinto our house.
Like there are at least threestories of me like sneaking a
dog home that I found.
On this I was just like everytime I saw a dog on the side and
like we didn't grow up in aplace where there are like stray
dogs all over.
I don't know how I found somany dogs, by the way.
(08:34):
There they were and if theywere there, I was going to see
them and I was going to help.
I was a helper from a veryearly age.
I think that part of my desireI'm like laughing now but I
think that part of my deepdesire to like rescue and I'm
(08:55):
using air quotes as I say thatto rescue these dogs and to save
whales was about my own desireto be saved and rescued in a
really traumatic household.
I couldn't save myself from theviolence in my own home, but
what I could do is rescuesomebody's dog off the street
that probably actually had a tagand my mom called them to be
(09:17):
like Yon, come get your dog.
My daughter, don't pick yourdog off the corner, come get
this dog from my house, please.
What's really interesting aboutmy family is that, even amidst
the violence that I wasexperiencing in my own household
, I still felt like, to acertain extent, as long as I
(09:43):
didn't challenge the dynamics inour own household, I was
allowed to be questioning.
I was allowed to challenge whatwas happening in the external
world.
I would say that I had parentswho were very political, really
involved, and political in theholistic sense I don't mean in
(10:04):
the 501c4 electoral justice,voting rights, necessarily sense
of political or political partyaffiliation, sense of political
, but really had a stronganalysis of liberation and black
solidarity and pan-Africanism.
So I would say that my parentsallowed me, particularly when it
(10:25):
came to race to question, to bethoughtful, to form my own
ideas.
My parents insisted it wasn't aquestion of whether I would
volunteer, it was insisted uponas a cultural and even in some
ways a religious practice to bein service of your neighbors.
And so in some ways I thinkthat that desire to be helpful,
(10:49):
that desire to support mycommunity, that desire to engage
in charity maybe not activismthen was really nurtured in my
house.
And yet I was not allowed tochallenge the structures inside
of, I wasn't allowed tochallenge patriarchy or misogyny
(11:11):
that was happening within ourhousehold, even though I was
allowed to maybe talk about itin a more theoretical sense,
around what was happeningoutside.
I don't know if I was aware ofthe difference in how I was
allowed to show about side andhow I was allowed to show up
inside of my household.
I don't know that I had anawareness as much as an ability
(11:34):
to navigate it subconsciouslyright, like I knew I wasn't
allowed to talk back or whatever.
I wasn't allowed to questionauthority within our household.
I wasn't allowed to setboundaries or have bodily
sovereignty within the contextof our home.
Even as we were talking aboutapart, I saw Nelson.
(11:58):
I have a picture of myselfseeing Nelson Mandela speak.
So I was allowed to think about,I was allowed to talk about
apartheid.
I was allowed to talk aboutboycotting, divestment,
sanctions of South Africa.
I was allowed to talk about howwe were race and how it might
have been showing up for us inour family, how immigration, all
(12:22):
of these conflicting andconflating experiences for Black
folks in the United States wereshowing up in our family.
Colorism, hair texture, wetalked about those things and I
could talk about them in theory,but I couldn't challenge
authority in my household and soI don't think I had an
awareness or I didn't have aname for what was happening, as
(12:46):
much as I knew where it was safe.
I learned pretty quickly andpretty early on where it was
like safe to challenge authorityand like in what ways, what
language to use, right and veryin a very kind of like Black
respectability politic kind ofway, like I learned where it was
(13:07):
safe to challenge and where itwas not safe.
And I knew that in my housethere were places where I was
not safe to challenge and insome ways even parents asking
you what do you think about thissocial issue.
Sometimes I kind of like feltlike a trap too, was like, oh,
because if I disagree with myparents then I might be in
trouble.
So like don't say too much, youknow, don't disagree, disagree,
(13:31):
but like don't be disagreeable,you know.
And so it felt like attentionfor me and I would say too, like
as a person who bothexperienced sexual violence
within my home and then laterdomestic violence, like family
violence within our household,there was a constant feeling of
(13:56):
walking on eggshells, right, andso and I think the older I got,
the more vocal I got about whatthe like what I was seeing in
our household.
I didn't have, you know, Iwasn't necessarily calling
myself a feminist at the time,but I wasn't necessarily calling
(14:18):
myself queer either at the time, even though whoo, that was
doing a lot of feminist andqueer coded things back then.
But I wasn't calling myself, Ididn't have those words
necessarily, right.
I had a really strong analysisof race, but like maybe my
gender, my analysis aroundgender had not been fully formed
yet my analysis around fatphobia had not been formed in
the same way, even though I knowthat those they were related
(14:41):
and all showing up at the sametime.
And like, the older I got, themore vocal I got and the harder
the more conflict happened inthe household as a result of me
starting to name what I wasseeing, and I think for a long
time what it meant is I didn'tname what I was seeing, right?
It meant that I buried a lot ofthings in an effort to keep
(15:07):
myself safe.
Rochelle (15:09):
Alicia lived at home with her sister and parents and,
in later years, other siblings.
When she was around eight, oneof her half brothers her
father's son from a previousrelationship came to live with
the family for a couple of years.
During this time, alicia wassexually abused.
Alicia (15:28):
I was sexually abused by my half-brother, who was a lot
older than me at the time butstill a minor, and he'd moved to
live with us for a year or twoduring my childhood and even as
(15:55):
a child I knew that it wasn'tsomething we were supposed to
talk about.
I mean, he'd also made itreally clear.
It was very secretive and witha lot of reinforcement around.
(16:15):
If I tell anyone, I will be theperson who gets in trouble.
If I tell, no one will believeme.
It was incredibly, of course.
I mean it's sexual abuse, it'sby nature, it's manipulative,
it's secretive, it's an exertionof power, and so I didn't tell
anyone for many years.
(16:36):
He later committed suicide andwhen I was 12 or 13, I think I
was 12 or 13.
Yeah, I can't remember exactly,but is when he committed
(16:56):
suicide and I remember and mydad has passed away, but I
remember my dad.
At this point my parents hadgotten divorced and I remember
my dad coming over to tell meyour brother, he's dead.
He shot himself and I wanted totell my dad.
(17:16):
In that moment I wanted to say,oh, he's gone.
Now I can finally say the thing, and I just saw how sad my dad
was about it how deeply hurt mydad was by his death and
traumatized Because we'd had alot of history of suicide in our
own family and I just wanted toprotect him by not telling him.
(17:44):
I told him many years ago.
He's actually the first familymember that I told and he was
incredibly supportive andbelieved me.
But in that moment I thought Iwas sparing his feelings by not
sharing.
At this point I was also likewhat good is it going to do To
me at 13,?
What good will it do to saysomething now?
(18:06):
He can't actually hurt meanymore, so no point in bringing
it up.
But it could have been helpfulto have therapy or have support
or feel affirmed or believed.
I didn't have those things.
I remember going back to Alabama, which is where my father's
from my father was not abusiveto us, but it was my
(18:29):
half-brother from my dad and Iremember going back to visit and
I saw him and I was like, oh mygod, I'm supposed to look at
him forever.
I'm supposed to just like.
And no one knew, right, like noone in my family knew.
And then he died and I saw hiskids and I think seeing his kids
(18:52):
was like seeing his kids wasincredibly traumatic for me.
Seeing his kids was just really, really very hard for me and I
think about that little girl,like the things that I had to
bury, all of the silences that Ihad to endure just to make it
(19:13):
through, just to make it toadulthood, and I'm really
astounded that I can even, likeyou know, maya Angelou talks
about how, after she wassexually assaulted, she was mute
for like years.
I think and I think about itmakes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense whywe're silent and how hard it is
(19:38):
to use our voice.
Interestingly enough, I was in agroup therapy that was mandated
by our school.
I think it was mandated for thechildren whose parents were
(20:00):
going through divorce at thetime.
I don't even know if they dothis anymore, but they were
doing it then it's the 90s, so Idon't know what the 90s in
Florida, so I don't really knowwhat the you know evidence-based
practice around that is at thismoment.
But I was in a group Because Ican't imagine that my parents
would have been like, yeah, putmy child in therapy, like there
(20:22):
must have been something else.
So I was in a mandated groupfor kids.
I think it was mandated forkids whose parents were going
through divorce or had beenrecently divorced, and I
actually did not disclose theabuse there, but I disclosed
suicidal ideation as a result ofmy brother's death Because part
(20:43):
of me was like, well, if hegets to get out of this, like I
don't want to have to live withthis, like he gets it out, like
why not, why don't I get it out.
And then my entire family gotinvolved.
It was a really hard experience.
I felt really silenced.
My parents were, I think,moving from their own place of
(21:06):
shame and also the reality ofyou know, my the social worker
who was leading the group was amandated reporter.
Do you think I knew whatmandated reporting was?
Right?
So now Child ProtectiveServices is involved in my
family.
Right, and so in some ways,right, I was like putting my
family in danger.
(21:27):
Right Of state violence.
Right, in an effort to keepmyself safe or to disclose what
was happening for me.
And that's a really hard andtricky experience for Black
folks, for immigrant folks, forfolks who have a history of,
like, disproportionate policing,disproportionate surveillance,
disproportionate state violence.
(21:48):
Right, and so I felt reallyguilty about disclosing that I
had been suicidal.
I remember my parents saying,like, why are you doing this for
attention?
Like, you know, what is it thatyou want?
Like, and I, even in thatmoment, I couldn't tell them
what was actually happeningbecause I was so afraid of more
violence, either from my youknow, within my like household,
(22:11):
or outside of it.
You know, and so I buried itfor a long time.
Rochelle (22:18):
Soon after her parents' divorce, her mother got
remarried.
Alicia (22:22):
Then my mom got remarried to a person who was
also very physically abused,very sexually inappropriate in
terms of, like, just reallyinappropriate language, a lot of
like surveillance of my body, alot of feedback about my body,
but also physically like,physically abusive, and so you
know.
So I'd gone from experiencingsexual abuse and rape as a child
(22:45):
to now experiencing physicalviolence, constant threats,
walking on eggshells, like thereality of, like what domestic
violence survivors experience.
It was really quickly after andso, yeah, so I was now in a
household where I was alsoexperiencing violence and at
(23:07):
that point, my only, my likebest bet, my safest option, was
to be like a really good student, to be good at everything so
that I can get as far away as Icould, right, like, my goal was
to get away.
That was the ultimate goal.
So I seem like a person who'sincredibly motivated and I am,
you know, and I think so much ofthat motivation was about
(23:29):
getting out.
You know, was about running away, getting being safe, right and
in whatever way that needed tohappen at the time, and so, you
know, I am still in relationshipin some ways with those people,
you know, and that's thecomplication about violence that
(23:50):
happens within the context ofour families.
I could have learned resiliencesome other way.
Look, I would love to have notlearned resilience through the
trauma of violence within myhousehold.
I think that deeply changes youto experience violence from the
(24:10):
people who are supposed to bekeeping you safe and it like
deeply has shifted something inmy core and also I think it's
why I tend to be so vocallyoutspoken about injustice
everywhere in the world, andstarting with our most close
relationships, because that'swhere care and safety are
(24:35):
actually nurtured.
If we're doing it well.
Rochelle (24:38):
Alessia poured herself into her studies and
extracurricular activities.
She leaned into making herselfperfect.
Alicia (24:47):
It was a really good place to channel my anxiety,
which I wouldn't have I didn'tnecessarily call it that then,
but it, like, was a place tochannel my perfectionism.
It was a place to like channelmy sense, my desire for control
is.
I think what it really boileddown to was that, like I had no
(25:08):
control in any place in my life,right, I was a child.
Right, Children are notoriouslyout of control and in a sense
that, like, they're an oppressedgroup of people, right, like
they don't necessarily haverights.
They don't.
You know, for many of us in ourown families, we don't get to
speak up.
We experience violence, abuse,you know, like surveillance of
(25:29):
our bodies, taking away food,taking away rights, taking away
things, right, and some of thatis about accountability and some
of it is actually can be reallyabusive, right, and so, in a
home in particular, where Ididn't have a strong sense of
control, music was a way to likechannel my sense of control,
(25:49):
right, because like.
I can't control my household,but I can control like how much
I practice I can.
You know, I can sort of in someways control your voice.
So you know, I just found waysto be perfect.
I think I believed that if Ijust behaved better, if I just
(26:15):
got straight A's, that like Icould be safe, you know, and
part of it was just like that Icould get out right.
If I got straight A's I can getinto a school in New York City,
you know, in California,somewhere far, far away.
And so that was.
I had my eye on the prize,truly, truly.
Rochelle (26:48):
MUSIC.
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Alicia (27:20):
I think I always knew I wanted to be a parent From a
pretty early age.
I think it's had something todo with rescuing them, dogs, or
I.
Um, I saw some two other likefunny anecdotes or maybe they're
not that funny, but two otheranecdotes.
One is that I am in high school.
At this point I'd been studyingmusic for quite a while, for a
(27:45):
kid, you know.
Um, I played the piano, notvery well, like not well at all
actually, but well enough toteach a new person, a person
who's just learning the keys.
Oh great, I could definitely dothat.
So I signed up to teach pianofor Make-A-Wish Foundation and I
(28:11):
taught a girl piano she wasmaybe five who had cancer,
through the Make-A-WishFoundation.
How old were you this summer?
Maybe 14, maybe 15.
Again, my basic piano skillsLet me tell you.
I just want to be really clear.
They were very, very basic.
(28:32):
My mom was a classical pianist,though.
My brother went to aconservatory.
He played violin.
My sister studied musicaltheater Our house is quite
dramatic and chaotic for so manyreasons and so I taught piano
through the Make-A-WishFoundation as a kid, and I also
(28:56):
I got a grant as a teenager.
I think it was my senior year ofhigh school, so I might have
been 16 or 17.
And I wanted to teach music ata foster, like a halfway house,
like a essentially like a fosterhome for youth.
And so I got all theserecorders and pianicas Is that
(29:18):
what they're called, pianicas?
Yeah, you blow into them andplay the piano.
And I was going to teach musicclasses at this foster home for
young folks in my kind of nearby, my house in my neighborhood
and I got to this home and thekids were like maybe we don't
(29:39):
want to play the recorder, likewe are trying to survive, like
it's not giving.
And I was like, oh well, I'mhere to teach you about
classical music, you're welcome.
And they were like, no, thankyou, not interested.
But you could like help me withmy math homework.
And I was like, oh, like that'snot fun, like that's not what I
(30:00):
signed, that's not what I gotthe grant for, that's like not
what I signed up for.
And it was certainly a lessonin like actually giving people
what they need, not what youthink they need, which was
really helpful, but I think thatlike continuing in it.
I was like 16, 17, maybe I alsoworked part-time, volunteered,
(30:21):
part-time in a nursing home.
So I was like 16, 17, and theywere 12 maybe, so we were not
that far in age, but I alwaysreally loved like working with
and like supporting young folksand I knew really early on
there's not one particularmoment I spent a lot of time in
(30:43):
my life caretaking and in someways, for some folks that makes
you not want to have a childbecause you've spent so much
time and energy caretaking.
I had to keep caretake for myyounger siblings to keep them
safe in an abusive household.
I had to caretake for myself.
I had to sometimes caretake formy mom, right, who was
overwhelmed with the emotion ofthe violence and like
(31:06):
contradiction that she washolding in her own life.
I had to caretake in romanticrelationships, right, and I had
so much practice caretaking andin some ways that can really
burn you out from wanting tohave a child, which feels so
fair, and for me it made me havean even deeper desire to like
(31:26):
cultivate a like healthy, lovingparental relationship with us,
with a tiny human.
And so I did it, we did it.
Wow, I had almost three andit's kind of miraculous and also
extremely hard and I in manyways I feel like no other
(31:47):
caretaking that I've ever donein my life could have prepared
me for what is required to bethis child's mother Night and
day in some ways.
For you know, of course I hadpractice, but I was the oldest
sibling my mom often shares astory of and I think she was
(32:08):
telling me this as a compliment,just as a caveat to before I
say this when our small childwas about, I don't know, six
months, I remember calling mymom and being like I don't know
if I can do this, like I feellike I am losing my mind right
now.
This is way harder than I thinkI was expecting.
(32:29):
Maybe I went in with a lot ofego.
This is really hard.
Maybe they were even youngerthan six months, probably the
newborn phase, because thenewborn phase was really hard
for me.
And my mom said, like you gotthis, and I again, I think she
was trying to be encouragingshe's like you, when your
brother was born, I was 13, 14when my brother was born and she
(32:50):
was like you would wake up inthe middle of the night with me
to give them bottles.
I was like, well, what was a 14year old doing getting up in
the middle of the night to givea baby bottle?
I had to go to school the nextday, like didn't have to take
the SATs or something, like youknow.
And I think again I think shethought that it was a compliment
like to suggest, like you havebeen babysitting, you would get
(33:10):
up in the middle of the nightwith me to take care of your
siblings.
And I was like, yeah, no wonderI'm so exhausted.
Number one, and also this islike a really common expectation
for girl children certainlyoldest immigrant daughters,
oldest black daughters, and so Icould see how a person who's
(33:31):
had to do that for their wholelife might be tired of
caretaking.
Even having done those things,it's so different than being a
parent to my tiny, to our tinyhuman.
You know, it's still different.
Even though I woke up in themiddle of the night at 14 to
change my brother's diaper orget him new bottles, it's been
(33:54):
exponentially harder than Ithink anyone could have
described to me, and alsomiraculous to Stuart Black.
Life in this world.
What a gift, what a gift toraise our child, to raise a free
black child.
And also, whoa, I need a napAll the time.
(34:20):
And also I'm just like peoplehave been doing this for
millennia.
Like what you can feel a little.
I can feel a little like oh,what am I doing wrong here?
Because maybe I haven't hackedthis or haven't cracked the code
, like no one said it was thishard, so maybe it's not actually
this hard for everyone else.
Is it just me?
(34:41):
Is it just us?
Why am I overstimulated?
Like it must be?
There must be something wrongwith me or my parenting that
makes this harder for me than ithas been for everyone else.
And then I talk to otherparents and they're like no,
it's hard for all of us.
It's hard, we just at all theages, and I think we just don't
talk about it as much as weshould or can or could, or you
(35:05):
know, and I think my experiencelately has been that we only
ever talk about it to otherparents.
So if you are not a parent,you're not a part, you're not in
the club, you're not in thesecret society, and I think part
of that is like even for myfriends who had children before
me, it's like I don't think Icould have understood all of the
minutiae, all of the mundaneways that parenting, the kind of
(35:30):
psychological toll, thephysical toll that parenting
takes on you.
I don't think that if, even ifyou told me, I don't know if I
would have believed it.
I think I saw a meme once thatwas like something along the
lines of like we have peoplehave to believe that they can do
it better and that's how wekeep having kids.
Yeah, I had to believe that.
Like I got this.
(35:52):
I've been caretaking for mywhole life.
How hard could this be Right?
Then I get in and I'm like, ohmy God, I'm drowning.
It's like it's really hard totalk about.
It's hard to talk about all ofthat because, right like there
are hilarious stories about likehilarious and like actually not
so hilarious stories about howoften your toddler is home from
(36:14):
daycare with an illness.
In fact, literally I dropped offand maybe an hour later they
called me and they were like andof course I get the call, I see
the daycare on my phone ringingand I'm like, oh my God, like
if they tell me to come get thiskid, I think my mental health
will be in shambles.
It turns out they're out ofdiapers.
(36:36):
I wish they had told me that,like a couple of days ago.
Like they literally called meat 10 am and they were like hi,
we just changed your child'sdiaper and that was the last one
, so you have to come now.
I'm like y'all didn't know thatthat was the last one Seven
diapers ago.
Like nobody could give me aheads up, right?
But luckily I'm not workingtoday, but if I were in a
meeting, like you have to dropeverything, right.
(36:58):
So they're like all these likebig and small ways that
parenting really permeates everypart of your life and identity.
You know, I remember taking oneof my friends recently invited
us somewhere like a dinner andthey were like, just bring your,
just bring the baby.
(37:18):
And I was like, I'm sorry, haveyou ever had an 8 pm dinner
with a two year old?
It's not going to be fun foranyone.
Don't invite, no, we're notcoming, or we'll get a baby
sitter.
The baby's, not the child, willnot come and like and yes, we
take our child to restaurants,nice ones even.
We take our child places,travel with them even.
(37:41):
Right, there is a at 10 am.
I take them to the restaurant.
They can do a restaurant at 10am, they cannot do a restaurant
at 8 pm, right, like you have toknow your child.
You have to know also, like, bea good neighbor to your, to
your community, right, and soyou know.
Of course, people differentpeople have different kinds of
(38:02):
children, so they will dodifferent things.
But I think there's like not onestory that illuminates what,
what it's like to love a tinyhuman in this way and wish, like
, the absolute best for them inthe most unconditional way.
(38:24):
And also like to be honest,like how, yeah, how stimulate,
how overstimulating it can be,like this morning.
So just to add to the, the factthat they called me at 10 am
about diapers.
Drop off was a hot mess thismorning.
They cried the entire morning,the entire.
(38:49):
They refused to eat breakfastat home.
They cried in the car on the wayto daycare, screaming that they
didn't want to go to school andlike I mean it was just like
constant power struggle andwhich is really common and
normal for a two and a half yearold, almost three year olds,
right, like I know this it'sdevelopmentally appropriate, and
(39:14):
also it can be really hard forparents, because something my
parents did not teach me, as youcan, as you know, as I've
talked about already, is likethey weren't necessarily great
at regulating their own emotions, right.
And so the thing that is mostimportant for me in this moment
is like how to stay regulatedfor our child right, like I
(39:35):
can't meet them in theirfrustration, I can't meet them
at their tears, I can't meetthem, and so what is actually
required for me to show up forthem is a level of emotional
regulation that I just didn'teven know I had the patience or
like possibility to do, and itactually is really hard
sometimes.
You know, they're in like ahitting phase.
(39:59):
I was like kids hit like thisis wild and it's like deeply
triggering, quite.
You know, like to be honest,like it's like really triggering
, and like I've been hit in myhousehold enough, like I'm not
about to let you two year oldhit me, like I'm not about to do
this with you, right, and Ialso have to say things like
(40:21):
mama's going to have to move herbody to stay safe.
Or, you know, can you show megentle hands?
You know, like we don't hiteven when we're angry.
Or you know, can you show me,can you?
Here's a pillow, would you like?
I see that you want to like letout some energy.
Could you hit this pillow,right?
We're trying all of the things,all of the things, and it's not
(40:45):
I'm saying the term workingbecause I know that it's like a
long process so I'm saying it'snot working in the immediate,
right.
What would work in theimmediate is probably hitting
the back, probably screaming atthem Would stop the behavior in
this moment.
And I know that in the long term, like having a steady, safe
(41:07):
adult, having an emotionallyregulated parent, is like the
best thing that I can give them.
And it's like really profound,because it's like really makes
me interrogate the amount ofpower that I have with a small
child and to not wield andweaponize it.
We had.
(41:27):
There are times I have to keepthem safe, of course, right, I'm
not about to let you run out onthe street.
I have sense, right, right.
And also like there are timeswhen it's actually like an
unnecessary power struggle.
We were like fighting overdinner the other night because
they didn't want to eat it and Ilet them have dessert first and
which I do because I don't wantto give them a complex about
(41:54):
what foods are good and whatfoods are bad.
Like food is food.
You know you need differentthings for nourishment,
including, you know, sprinkles,right, like, and so I try not to
put a lot of weight on food inthem.
But then when they got up fromthe table after eating only
yogurt with sprinkles andnothing else on the plate, I was
pissed and I was like goingback and forth with them and my
(42:16):
wife said you know, I feel likeyou're in a little bit of a
power struggle, like, let's takea break.
And it was like really is justlike a really helpful reality
check and like, come back to mybody check.
But there are so many ways thatit's both hilarious and fun to
be a parent and also like reallyhard and I would certainly say
(42:38):
to like in my like pregnancyjourney too, like I was like no
one told me about pelvic floortherapy, or like no one told me
that my boobs would leak whenany child cries, or like you
know, like no one told me that.
Like you'll be constipated forthe entire third trimester.
Like there were just thingsthat I didn't even having been
(43:00):
friends with, in deep communitywith, with folks who would get
given birth in the past, therewas a lot that I still didn't
know.
And I think, too, as a survivorof child sexual abuse and other
forms of both like family andreproductive violence, I just
(43:22):
also just breastfeeding wasreally could be really
triggering for survivors.
You know, it was, at least forme, like it was feeling like, oh
, there's this person who, like,has unfettered access to my
body is kind of wild as a personwho spent so much time trying
to regain control over my body,right, but also to feel out of
(43:42):
control.
There are things happening inon, around to my body that I'm,
like you know, don't necessarilyhave control over.
It's just a really it's just.
It can be a really harrowingexperience and I don't think
that I understood the fullspectrum of what that could look
like.
Rochelle (44:13):
I know that I am not alone when I say that parenting
is probably one of the hardestthings ever done.
There's nothing that preparesyou for the amount of inner
turmoil, self doubt and themassive responsibility of
helping to grow and nourish awhole human being.
While each individual challengemay be small in scale, the
(44:35):
impact feels huge.
Alicia (44:38):
And because it's cumulative, all of the little
things.
Every time you have to thinkabout diapers.
Did you take diapers to daycare?
Did you call that?
Make the next six monthsdoctor's appointment?
Did you make the?
Did you call the dentist's back?
Did you pick up theprescription?
Did you get a gift for theteachers for the holidays?
Did you get that gift card?
Are you on the list to for themeal train for the right?
(45:00):
And I still have to show up.
And my job.
I have a whole job.
I have a job.
I have a partner.
I allegedly I have friendships.
Right, I'm trying.
Right, it's, it's cumulative.
Rochelle (45:13):
In preparation for these stories, alicia shared
that, as a survivor of childhoodsexual and domestic abuse, her
journey to parenting has beenboth a trigger and a healing
experience.
Alicia (45:27):
Getting to parent has allowed me to repair it myself
in ways that I didn't know Ineeded.
Getting to watch themexperience joy, oh my God, do
you know how?
Kids don't care what theweather is, they want to go to
the playground.
Like the amount of time Iprobably spent more time in
(45:50):
playgrounds in the two years ofour child's life almost three
now.
Then, like I don't know, I didsince I was like 10 years old.
It has given me the space andthis is their gift to me, right,
like they have given me thespace to be playful, to get on
(46:10):
the floor in color, to roll theround.
I get to practice consent withthem, you know, and it started
so young, right, Like it startsimmediately.
Like this is what I'm doing,while I'm changing your diaper
and I'm narrating it to you,while I'm teaching you the
correct parts of your body sothat if something does happen to
(46:32):
you, you know how to talk aboutwhat is happening.
Right, I want to make sure thatthey have the tools and the
trust that we will believe them.
Right, so we practice.
You know, can I hug you even,like?
And it might seem really small,but it actually is deeply
healing to me as both a survivormyself and as a parent, to be
able to allow my child to haveconsent.
(46:54):
Sometimes it's a pain.
They're like you did not askpermission to put my shoes on,
sweetie, we're going outside.
You got to put shoes on, like Ican't.
I've not been arguing with you,right?
And there are so manyopportunities for us to actually
practice consent and, like youknow, to give them some sense of
control, which is all thatthree, almost three year olds
(47:14):
want, right and so.
So it's like deeply healing forme to get to watch this child
explore who they are.
We use gender neutral pronounswith our child, for now.
They've been kind of telling usdifferent things about like
gender.
They ask questions about otherpeople's gender.
They're like what are that?
(47:35):
What are their pronouns?
I'm like I don't know.
We can ask them or you couldjust mind your business.
But, like you could also ask, ifyou're curious, right, and I'm
like you know what are yourpronouns they will tell me what
they think mine are and we talkabout it.
Even at three, they canunderstand enough, right, and so
we try to make things age anddevelopmentally appropriate for
(47:55):
them and it's just like such agift to watch them be curious
about the world.
It's really healing.
And it can be really hardbecause things happen a lot more
slowly, right, because you haveto explain things and while I
know that it is a littlefrustrating right now, at least
(48:17):
for me, I know that in the longterm it creates a child who's a
critical thinker, a child whoquestions authority, even mine,
and who questions the world andacts with care for other people.
(48:40):
Breastfeeding was really hardfor me and, like people often
say that it's natural, it comesnaturally, like it did not come
easily for me.
I mean, yet I made breast milkand it was still really hard and
I felt like I had to be.
(49:00):
I was like very touched out andit also felt a lot like not
having.
Of course I consented to havinga child, but I didn't
necessarily understand it wasmaybe not informed consent,
right, in the sense that I don'tthink I understood what
breastfeeding would actuallyrequire of my physical body or
the presence that it required.
(49:21):
And so, especially as theystarted getting a little bit
older the newborn phase it washard, mostly because I didn't
have a child.
And as they got older, it washard because they could actually
demand it with sign language orliteral grabbing.
So it was just like I was likeoh okay, I really have to commit
to doing this.
(49:44):
And also, in some ways, kind ofbe outside of my body to enjoy
this experience.
In some ways we might call itdisassociation, which is like a
fancier term for me, and I thinkthat's a really good thing,
because we might call itdisassociation, which is like a
fancier term, for that feelingof some.
People would describe it asbeing outside of your body and
looking at yourself like you'rewatching a movie, or being
(50:07):
raised above yourself andlooking down at yourself.
That feeling of not beingtotally embodied, not being in
my physical body, but having thepresence of mind enough to know
that this is actually what Iwant to be doing for my child.
I want to be giving them thisas a survivor of child sexual
abuse, there was like thisbelief that I, this deep seated,
(50:31):
deeply held belief that I amalone.
No one in my house kept me safe.
How could I expect to ask forhelp from anyone else?
My desire for help and supportis too much.
It was too much for my ownfamily.
I couldn't possibly trust afriend to help me.
Maybe, I mean, I could trust myspouse, but can't I?
(50:54):
That's the tape, that's thestory, the narrative that we all
have them.
They're different for everyperson and that was mine.
I am not worthy of help orsupport.
If I were worthy of help andsupport, my own family would
have kept me safe.
I'm not worthy of safety, andso I think that that really
(51:20):
exacerbated the triggers earlyin kind of the postpartum
experience for me, also maybesome guilt around how I'd shown
up as a friend to people who'dhad children before me.
Just thinking about all of thepeople in my life who I love,
(51:40):
who had children, I was likesend me pictures of that cute
baby and never ask do you neednipple cream for your cracked
nipples?
I didn't know to ask right.
I didn't know to ask about howpeople's pelvic floors were
doing.
I didn't know to ask aboutwhether you've eaten enough
calories or drank enough watertoday to keep you hydrated to
make breast milk.
I didn't know to ask right.
(52:01):
So then I felt guilty aboutasking for help, because I felt
guilty about how I'd shown upfor other folks in my life, and
so most of my work has beenaround gender justice.
I've worked in rape crisiscenters, in domestic violence
unsurprisingly right In domesticviolence shelters.
I've advocated for the ViolenceAgainst Women Act.
(52:22):
I've advocated for child taxcredits, and then you actually
have to pay for daycare andyou're like, oh my, like it was
theoretical then, this is realnow.
Like it was, you know, likedoing work about Black maternal
mortality.
You know I was deeplypassionate about it.
(52:43):
You know I care deeply.
And then I'm in it and I'm like, oh, this is so real.
Like if y'all don't pay thesepeople who are providing care
and education to our children.
Rochelle (52:58):
To me, Alicia is a person with deep respect and
love for herself and others,Someone who understands her
value and is well loved.
When I sit with her stories, Isit with the clear truth that
she has worked so hard forhealing and liberation.
It is a journey, but she hastaken the lessons of her life
(53:22):
and poured them into her work,particularly in this season of
her work Philanthropy, which sheacknowledges is a flawed
institution.
But I see her.
I see the love-filled effort tomanifest real change and
liberation.
It gives me hope that the worldI wish for, while it may not
(53:44):
come in mine or my child'sgeneration, is on its way.
Alicia (53:50):
I just feel so deeply proud of what we are able to do
in Philanthropy, in the way thatwe're able to show up for our
people in some of the hardestmoments, and I can do it without
losing myself.
I can do it without losing myauthenticity.
I can do it without for lack ofa better term selling out.
I get to show up for my peoplein this very.
(54:11):
I've played many roles in, asDeepa Iyer calls, the social
justice ecosystem, and this rolethat I'm in feels so sacred to
me.
It is a sacred act of care andsolidarity to move resources to
(54:35):
folks when they need the mostand to work that would not
otherwise be resourced or fundedbecause of the type of
high-risk work that folks aretaking on, the type of work that
really challenges stateviolence and power and
colonialism and capitalism, andso, and also its attention, to
(54:57):
be working in Philanthropy andmoving resources that are the
result of oppression, capitalism, violence, Violence, racism,
untenable work conditions forworkers and in some ways, I
think of the work that I get todo as an act of reparations and
(55:19):
an act of land back.
I get to redistribute wealththat has been gained through
extraction of our communitiesand I get to move it back to the
people who know what to do withit, and that's a gift.
You know, I was feeling reallyhelpless, right, and I was like,
(55:39):
actually I have a role here,you know, and I don't have to
feel helpless because I actuallyhave a role and you just have
to be clear about what your roleis.
Show up with your gifts, right,Like you don't have to be not
everybody needs to be the bestorator.
I'm really good at spreadsheets, Like right.
Like that's my skill.
Right.
Like, yeah, I've been the ED,I've been on a bullhorn, but the
(56:02):
places where my skill was mostneeded was bringing the water,
checking on the babies, makingsure people were safe, making
sure there was a healing space,organizing the calls right.
Like.
We show up in different waysright.
And maybe your skill is musicright.
(56:24):
Maybe your skill is art.
Maybe you can make anincredible mural that speaks to
the time that we're in.
Right.
Do use your gifts, whateverthey are right, Even if they're
not the most visible.
Rochelle (56:40):
I asked Alicia if she feels she is successful.
Alicia (56:44):
If success for me right now looks like moving beyond
survival and into and likebeyond fight or flight mode,
into thriving, into healing,into breaking generational like
curses, then yeah, I'm proud ofmyself for succeeding in that
(57:06):
way, and that means more than adegree, that means more than a
job.
You know, like my firstresponsibility is actually to
myself and I'm finally able tosee that, even if I can't do all
of it right now, I can see itand that feels like a success to
(57:27):
me.
You know I do a lot of innerchild work and therapy, because
I can be very critical of myinner child and also the ways
that I've survived up until thispoint.
And so I think that what I'dsay to a 12-year-old I think
what I needed to hear most at 12was like you are not alone,
(57:50):
right, and you deserve safetyand you deserve protection,
right, and you don't have tofight alone.
I promise you there are peoplewho love you and who care about
you and who will fight for andwith you, even if they're not in
(58:11):
this house right now, andthey're doing the best they can
in this house.
They are doing what they canwith what they've got and what
they know, and I promise youthat I believe you, that you're
not making this up and that youare.
You can be safe.
Right, it might take a reallylong time and it does, and it
(58:33):
has, but healing is possible foryou.
Rochelle (58:42):
Deep gratitude to Alicia for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rochelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe Arts and Humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit bymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash.
Tell H er This For more.
(59:03):
Tell Her his content.
Please visit tellherthespodcast.
com and follow on social media@tellherthespodcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(59:23):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Wreh Jallah, and I amyour host, Rochelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rochelle RiceMusic across all social
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell.
Hello and welcome to Tell Her This podcast.
I'm your host, Rochelle Rice.
Tell Her This is a storytellingpodcast.
No advice, no self-help, juststories from women who represent
people just like you and justlike me.
What began as a journey morethan 6,000 miles around the US
(00:21):
has continued to even moreincredible stories from women
who have opened their lives toall of us.
I love that I can share thesestories across platforms and at
no cost to you, the listener.
But let's be clear podcastingtakes money and a lot of time.
Please consider supporting thislabor of love at
buymeacoffeecom forward slash.
(00:43):
Tell Her This.
For as little as $5, you canhelp ensure that I can keep
bringing you these incrediblestories.
That's buymeacoffeecom forwardslash.
Tell Her This.
The link is also in the shownotes.
Today's episode includesreferences to child sexual abuse
and suicide.
(01:03):
Sensitive listeners are advised.
All right, let's get started.
Alicia (01:15):
This is the Tell Her This podcast.
Why won't you unfold?
My name is Alicia Sanchez GilFreemyn and I am recently 40
years old.
Rochelle (01:33):
My friend Alicia is beautiful, bountiful and exudes
true Virgo energy in every waypossible.
To me she is focused and clearabout everything, from her
social and political convictionsto her personal aesthetic.
Her love for her sweet familyand friends is overflowing and
(01:57):
her commitment to the work ofliberation through organizing
and philanthropy is incredible.
And as we sat in her gorgeouslydecorated home office, I
learned that the woman before meis a fighter and every bit of
beauty I see in her was aproduct of survival.
Alicia (02:19):
I am like a more self-actualized person and that
is what feels really groundingtoday.
It's interesting because Iwould not have, I would never
have believed that.
I would say as like a part ofmy identity, one of the first
things that comes to mind withwho I am now as a mother.
I'm a mom, I'm a pretty goodfriend, I am a person who is
(02:48):
becoming, I am healing, I amyeah, I just feel like I'm
becoming more of myself and Idon't know, maybe there's
something about turning 40 thatjust flipped a switch but I feel
more at home in my identities,more at home in my body than I
(03:10):
possibly ever have before.
How I hope to be showing up inthis moment, how I'm working
towards showing up in thismoment, as I always think about
being a good ancestor, right,and so I'm like okay, like what
am I doing right now?
That like my child and theirfriends and perhaps their
(03:32):
children will remember not aslike a mother who sacrificed
everything, but as a person inthe world who was in deep
solidarity with other people inthe world, right, and so how I
hope that I am showing up inthis moment.
That's actually likeparticularly hard and I feel
like I've been saying that forlike the last six years.
(03:52):
Like it's just like this is areally hard moment, right, but
in this moment in particular,like I hope I'm a person who is
showing up in like a lot of love, but like not a saccharine,
superficial love, but like alove that is grounded in justice
and like doing what people need.
(04:15):
In this moment I hope that I'mshowing up as a person who is
like down to like fight for ourpeople.
I hope that I am showing up asa person when folks look back,
like you know, put it on thetombstone right.
Like you know that, like I wasthere right.
(04:38):
Like I showed up for my friends, I showed up for people that I
didn't know, I showed up insolidarity because I really
deeply believe that our likeboth our like lineages and also
our futures are really connectedto one another.
So that's how I hope that I'mshowing up in like these times,
like maybe in this particularmoment, while I'm sitting on my
(05:00):
pink couch surrounded by candlesand a blanket, a warm blanket,
I hope that I'm showing up aslike grounded and authentic and
just totally myself.
For me, there's somethingaround grappling with like what
(05:20):
have I done with the last 40years of my life, and what will
I do with the next 40 and thensome?
And how do I want to become agood ancestor?
Like, how do I do that now?
Right, like it's not somethingthat happens later, it's
something that you're doing inthis every moment.
Rochelle (05:35):
Alicia is funny and outspoken and natural carer, and
much of how she shows up in theworld is a result of childhood
experiences that wereinformative and empowering and
others that were deeply painfuland traumatizing.
Alicia (05:52):
I had a really tough childhood and in some ways I
feel like forged from thatroughness and I feel like this
story is like a great example ofhow I was always kind of a
fighter, you know and likedeeply concerned with and care
of, like the folks around me,and some of that is possibly who
(06:15):
I am.
Some of that possibly is atrauma response.
But I will share this storynonetheless, and the story is
that in 1993, I was 10 years oldor almost 10.
I might have been 10 when itactually came out.
The movie Free Willy came outand I went and saw it with my
family, in particular with myfather, and I was so hysterical
(06:42):
at the end of the movie I wassobbing, like, had to be removed
from the theater, sobbing by myfather and possibly secured,
I'm not sure.
I was just like hysterical, Iwas like sobbing.
I was in an absolute outrageand uproar about the treatment
of these whales and I wrote aletter to SeaWorld in Miami,
(07:06):
florida, which is where I grewup, telling them that they need
to release all the whales and Iwas demanding it and I didn't
get a risk.
I think I got a letter.
Actually, I think I got aletter with tickets to SeaWorld.
I'm pretty sure I shouldconfirm this with my mom.
I'm pretty sure we got a letterback like just thanking me for
(07:28):
my concern.
But you know, come see, thewhales are really well taken
care of.
But it's like such a.
It's such a.
I'm like a strong, unabidletter writer.
I like to write to Congress.
I like to make my voice heardand I feel like me at 10,.
This was like my firstexperience of feeling like that
was an injustice.
I mean, I had certainly seeninjustices before that moment,
(07:51):
but it felt like such a graveinjustice to the world that I
had to write a strongly wordedletter that my mom then mailed
for me to SeaWorld.
I was just incredibly outraged.
And I think the second storythat is like still kind of
legendary in my family is theamount of times that I rescued
(08:14):
dogs from the side of the roadinto our house.
Like there are at least threestories of me like sneaking a
dog home that I found.
On this I was just like everytime I saw a dog on the side and
like we didn't grow up in aplace where there are like stray
dogs all over.
I don't know how I found somany dogs, by the way.
(08:34):
There they were and if theywere there, I was going to see
them and I was going to help.
I was a helper from a veryearly age.
I think that part of my desireI'm like laughing now but I
think that part of my deepdesire to like rescue and I'm
(08:55):
using air quotes as I say thatto rescue these dogs and to save
whales was about my own desireto be saved and rescued in a
really traumatic household.
I couldn't save myself from theviolence in my own home, but
what I could do is rescuesomebody's dog off the street
that probably actually had a tagand my mom called them to be
(09:17):
like Yon, come get your dog.
My daughter, don't pick yourdog off the corner, come get
this dog from my house, please.
What's really interesting aboutmy family is that, even amidst
the violence that I wasexperiencing in my own household
, I still felt like, to acertain extent, as long as I
(09:43):
didn't challenge the dynamics inour own household, I was
allowed to be questioning.
I was allowed to challenge whatwas happening in the external
world.
I would say that I had parentswho were very political, really
involved, and political in theholistic sense I don't mean in
(10:04):
the 501c4 electoral justice,voting rights, necessarily sense
of political or political partyaffiliation, sense of political
, but really had a stronganalysis of liberation and black
solidarity and pan-Africanism.
So I would say that my parentsallowed me, particularly when it
(10:25):
came to race to question, to bethoughtful, to form my own
ideas.
My parents insisted it wasn't aquestion of whether I would
volunteer, it was insisted uponas a cultural and even in some
ways a religious practice to bein service of your neighbors.
And so in some ways I thinkthat that desire to be helpful,
(10:49):
that desire to support mycommunity, that desire to engage
in charity maybe not activismthen was really nurtured in my
house.
And yet I was not allowed tochallenge the structures inside
of, I wasn't allowed tochallenge patriarchy or misogyny
(11:11):
that was happening within ourhousehold, even though I was
allowed to maybe talk about itin a more theoretical sense,
around what was happeningoutside.
I don't know if I was aware ofthe difference in how I was
allowed to show about side andhow I was allowed to show up
inside of my household.
I don't know that I had anawareness as much as an ability
(11:34):
to navigate it subconsciouslyright, like I knew I wasn't
allowed to talk back or whatever.
I wasn't allowed to questionauthority within our household.
I wasn't allowed to setboundaries or have bodily
sovereignty within the contextof our home.
Even as we were talking aboutapart, I saw Nelson.
(11:58):
I have a picture of myselfseeing Nelson Mandela speak.
So I was allowed to think about,I was allowed to talk about
apartheid.
I was allowed to talk aboutboycotting, divestment,
sanctions of South Africa.
I was allowed to talk about howwe were race and how it might
have been showing up for us inour family, how immigration, all
(12:22):
of these conflicting andconflating experiences for Black
folks in the United States wereshowing up in our family.
Colorism, hair texture, wetalked about those things and I
could talk about them in theory,but I couldn't challenge
authority in my household and soI don't think I had an
awareness or I didn't have aname for what was happening, as
(12:46):
much as I knew where it was safe.
I learned pretty quickly andpretty early on where it was
like safe to challenge authorityand like in what ways, what
language to use, right and veryin a very kind of like Black
respectability politic kind ofway, like I learned where it was
(13:07):
safe to challenge and where itwas not safe.
And I knew that in my housethere were places where I was
not safe to challenge and insome ways even parents asking
you what do you think about thissocial issue.
Sometimes I kind of like feltlike a trap too, was like, oh,
because if I disagree with myparents then I might be in
trouble.
So like don't say too much, youknow, don't disagree, disagree,
(13:31):
but like don't be disagreeable,you know.
And so it felt like attentionfor me and I would say too, like
as a person who bothexperienced sexual violence
within my home and then laterdomestic violence, like family
violence within our household,there was a constant feeling of
(13:56):
walking on eggshells, right, andso and I think the older I got,
the more vocal I got about whatthe like what I was seeing in
our household.
I didn't have, you know, Iwasn't necessarily calling
myself a feminist at the time,but I wasn't necessarily calling
(14:18):
myself queer either at the time, even though whoo, that was
doing a lot of feminist andqueer coded things back then.
But I wasn't calling myself, Ididn't have those words
necessarily, right.
I had a really strong analysisof race, but like maybe my
gender, my analysis aroundgender had not been fully formed
yet my analysis around fatphobia had not been formed in
the same way, even though I knowthat those they were related
(14:41):
and all showing up at the sametime.
And like, the older I got, themore vocal I got and the harder
the more conflict happened inthe household as a result of me
starting to name what I wasseeing, and I think for a long
time what it meant is I didn'tname what I was seeing, right?
It meant that I buried a lot ofthings in an effort to keep
(15:07):
myself safe.
Rochelle (15:09):
Alicia lived at home with her sister and parents and,
in later years, other siblings.
When she was around eight, oneof her half brothers her
father's son from a previousrelationship came to live with
the family for a couple of years.
During this time, alicia wassexually abused.
Alicia (15:28):
I was sexually abused by my half-brother, who was a lot
older than me at the time butstill a minor, and he'd moved to
live with us for a year or twoduring my childhood and even as
(15:55):
a child I knew that it wasn'tsomething we were supposed to
talk about.
I mean, he'd also made itreally clear.
It was very secretive and witha lot of reinforcement around.
(16:15):
If I tell anyone, I will be theperson who gets in trouble.
If I tell, no one will believeme.
It was incredibly, of course.
I mean it's sexual abuse, it'sby nature, it's manipulative,
it's secretive, it's an exertionof power, and so I didn't tell
anyone for many years.
(16:36):
He later committed suicide andwhen I was 12 or 13, I think I
was 12 or 13.
Yeah, I can't remember exactly,but is when he committed
(16:56):
suicide and I remember and mydad has passed away, but I
remember my dad.
At this point my parents hadgotten divorced and I remember
my dad coming over to tell meyour brother, he's dead.
He shot himself and I wanted totell my dad.
(17:16):
In that moment I wanted to say,oh, he's gone.
Now I can finally say the thing, and I just saw how sad my dad
was about it how deeply hurt mydad was by his death and
traumatized Because we'd had alot of history of suicide in our
own family and I just wanted toprotect him by not telling him.
(17:44):
I told him many years ago.
He's actually the first familymember that I told and he was
incredibly supportive andbelieved me.
But in that moment I thought Iwas sparing his feelings by not
sharing.
At this point I was also likewhat good is it going to do To
me at 13,?
What good will it do to saysomething now?
(18:06):
He can't actually hurt meanymore, so no point in bringing
it up.
But it could have been helpfulto have therapy or have support
or feel affirmed or believed.
I didn't have those things.
I remember going back to Alabama, which is where my father's
from my father was not abusiveto us, but it was my
(18:29):
half-brother from my dad and Iremember going back to visit and
I saw him and I was like, oh mygod, I'm supposed to look at
him forever.
I'm supposed to just like.
And no one knew, right, like noone in my family knew.
And then he died and I saw hiskids and I think seeing his kids
(18:52):
was like seeing his kids wasincredibly traumatic for me.
Seeing his kids was just really, really very hard for me and I
think about that little girl,like the things that I had to
bury, all of the silences that Ihad to endure just to make it
(19:13):
through, just to make it toadulthood, and I'm really
astounded that I can even, likeyou know, maya Angelou talks
about how, after she wassexually assaulted, she was mute
for like years.
I think and I think about itmakes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense whywe're silent and how hard it is
(19:38):
to use our voice.
Interestingly enough, I was in agroup therapy that was mandated
by our school.
I think it was mandated for thechildren whose parents were
(20:00):
going through divorce at thetime.
I don't even know if they dothis anymore, but they were
doing it then it's the 90s, so Idon't know what the 90s in
Florida, so I don't really knowwhat the you know evidence-based
practice around that is at thismoment.
But I was in a group Because Ican't imagine that my parents
would have been like, yeah, putmy child in therapy, like there
(20:22):
must have been something else.
So I was in a mandated groupfor kids.
I think it was mandated forkids whose parents were going
through divorce or had beenrecently divorced, and I
actually did not disclose theabuse there, but I disclosed
suicidal ideation as a result ofmy brother's death Because part
(20:43):
of me was like, well, if hegets to get out of this, like I
don't want to have to live withthis, like he gets it out, like
why not, why don't I get it out.
And then my entire family gotinvolved.
It was a really hard experience.
I felt really silenced.
My parents were, I think,moving from their own place of
(21:06):
shame and also the reality ofyou know, my the social worker
who was leading the group was amandated reporter.
Do you think I knew whatmandated reporting was?
Right?
So now Child ProtectiveServices is involved in my
family.
Right, and so in some ways,right, I was like putting my
family in danger.
(21:27):
Right Of state violence.
Right, in an effort to keepmyself safe or to disclose what
was happening for me.
And that's a really hard andtricky experience for Black
folks, for immigrant folks, forfolks who have a history of,
like, disproportionate policing,disproportionate surveillance,
disproportionate state violence.
(21:48):
Right, and so I felt reallyguilty about disclosing that I
had been suicidal.
I remember my parents saying,like, why are you doing this for
attention?
Like, you know, what is it thatyou want?
Like, and I, even in thatmoment, I couldn't tell them
what was actually happeningbecause I was so afraid of more
violence, either from my youknow, within my like household,
(22:11):
or outside of it.
You know, and so I buried itfor a long time.
Rochelle (22:18):
Soon after her parents' divorce, her mother got
remarried.
Alicia (22:22):
Then my mom got remarried to a person who was
also very physically abused,very sexually inappropriate in
terms of, like, just reallyinappropriate language, a lot of
like surveillance of my body, alot of feedback about my body,
but also physically like,physically abusive, and so you
know.
So I'd gone from experiencingsexual abuse and rape as a child
(22:45):
to now experiencing physicalviolence, constant threats,
walking on eggshells, like thereality of, like what domestic
violence survivors experience.
It was really quickly after andso, yeah, so I was now in a
household where I was alsoexperiencing violence and at
(23:07):
that point, my only, my likebest bet, my safest option, was
to be like a really good student, to be good at everything so
that I can get as far away as Icould, right, like, my goal was
to get away.
That was the ultimate goal.
So I seem like a person who'sincredibly motivated and I am,
you know, and I think so much ofthat motivation was about
(23:29):
getting out.
You know, was about running away, getting being safe, right and
in whatever way that needed tohappen at the time, and so, you
know, I am still in relationshipin some ways with those people,
you know, and that's thecomplication about violence that
(23:50):
happens within the context ofour families.
I could have learned resiliencesome other way.
Look, I would love to have notlearned resilience through the
trauma of violence within myhousehold.
I think that deeply changes youto experience violence from the
(24:10):
people who are supposed to bekeeping you safe and it like
deeply has shifted something inmy core and also I think it's
why I tend to be so vocallyoutspoken about injustice
everywhere in the world, andstarting with our most close
relationships, because that'swhere care and safety are
(24:35):
actually nurtured.
If we're doing it well.
Rochelle (24:38):
Alessia poured herself into her studies and
extracurricular activities.
She leaned into making herselfperfect.
Alicia (24:47):
It was a really good place to channel my anxiety,
which I wouldn't have I didn'tnecessarily call it that then,
but it, like, was a place tochannel my perfectionism.
It was a place to like channelmy sense, my desire for control
is.
I think what it really boileddown to was that, like I had no
(25:08):
control in any place in my life,right, I was a child.
Right, Children are notoriouslyout of control and in a sense
that, like, they're an oppressedgroup of people, right, like
they don't necessarily haverights.
They don't.
You know, for many of us in ourown families, we don't get to
speak up.
We experience violence, abuse,you know, like surveillance of
(25:29):
our bodies, taking away food,taking away rights, taking away
things, right, and some of thatis about accountability and some
of it is actually can be reallyabusive, right, and so, in a
home in particular, where Ididn't have a strong sense of
control, music was a way to likechannel my sense of control,
(25:49):
right, because like.
I can't control my household,but I can control like how much
I practice I can.
You know, I can sort of in someways control your voice.
So you know, I just found waysto be perfect.
I think I believed that if Ijust behaved better, if I just
(26:15):
got straight A's, that like Icould be safe, you know, and
part of it was just like that Icould get out right.
If I got straight A's I can getinto a school in New York City,
you know, in California,somewhere far, far away.
And so that was.
I had my eye on the prize,truly, truly.
Rochelle (26:48):
MUSIC.
The episode isn't over yet, butI want to take a minute to say
Tell Her This needs your support.
This is a self-funded project,but for less than a cup of
coffee you can keep this laborof love going.
Click the link in the shownotes to buy me a coffee or head
(27:10):
over to buymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash, tell her thisand donate what you can.
All right, let's get back tothe show.
Alicia (27:20):
I think I always knew I wanted to be a parent From a
pretty early age.
I think it's had something todo with rescuing them, dogs, or
I.
Um, I saw some two other likefunny anecdotes or maybe they're
not that funny, but two otheranecdotes.
One is that I am in high school.
At this point I'd been studyingmusic for quite a while, for a
(27:45):
kid, you know.
Um, I played the piano, notvery well, like not well at all
actually, but well enough toteach a new person, a person
who's just learning the keys.
Oh great, I could definitely dothat.
So I signed up to teach pianofor Make-A-Wish Foundation and I
(28:11):
taught a girl piano she wasmaybe five who had cancer,
through the Make-A-WishFoundation.
How old were you this summer?
Maybe 14, maybe 15.
Again, my basic piano skillsLet me tell you.
I just want to be really clear.
They were very, very basic.
(28:32):
My mom was a classical pianist,though.
My brother went to aconservatory.
He played violin.
My sister studied musicaltheater Our house is quite
dramatic and chaotic for so manyreasons and so I taught piano
through the Make-A-WishFoundation as a kid, and I also
(28:56):
I got a grant as a teenager.
I think it was my senior year ofhigh school, so I might have
been 16 or 17.
And I wanted to teach music ata foster, like a halfway house,
like a essentially like a fosterhome for youth.
And so I got all theserecorders and pianicas Is that
(29:18):
what they're called, pianicas?
Yeah, you blow into them andplay the piano.
And I was going to teach musicclasses at this foster home for
young folks in my kind of nearby, my house in my neighborhood
and I got to this home and thekids were like maybe we don't
(29:39):
want to play the recorder, likewe are trying to survive, like
it's not giving.
And I was like, oh well, I'mhere to teach you about
classical music, you're welcome.
And they were like, no, thankyou, not interested.
But you could like help me withmy math homework.
And I was like, oh, like that'snot fun, like that's not what I
(30:00):
signed, that's not what I gotthe grant for, that's like not
what I signed up for.
And it was certainly a lessonin like actually giving people
what they need, not what youthink they need, which was
really helpful, but I think thatlike continuing in it.
I was like 16, 17, maybe I alsoworked part-time, volunteered,
(30:21):
part-time in a nursing home.
So I was like 16, 17, and theywere 12 maybe, so we were not
that far in age, but I alwaysreally loved like working with
and like supporting young folksand I knew really early on
there's not one particularmoment I spent a lot of time in
(30:43):
my life caretaking and in someways, for some folks that makes
you not want to have a childbecause you've spent so much
time and energy caretaking.
I had to keep caretake for myyounger siblings to keep them
safe in an abusive household.
I had to caretake for myself.
I had to sometimes caretake formy mom, right, who was
overwhelmed with the emotion ofthe violence and like
(31:06):
contradiction that she washolding in her own life.
I had to caretake in romanticrelationships, right, and I had
so much practice caretaking andin some ways that can really
burn you out from wanting tohave a child, which feels so
fair, and for me it made me havean even deeper desire to like
(31:26):
cultivate a like healthy, lovingparental relationship with us,
with a tiny human.
And so I did it, we did it.
Wow, I had almost three andit's kind of miraculous and also
extremely hard and I in manyways I feel like no other
(31:47):
caretaking that I've ever donein my life could have prepared
me for what is required to bethis child's mother Night and
day in some ways.
For you know, of course I hadpractice, but I was the oldest
sibling my mom often shares astory of and I think she was
(32:08):
telling me this as a compliment,just as a caveat to before I
say this when our small childwas about, I don't know, six
months, I remember calling mymom and being like I don't know
if I can do this, like I feellike I am losing my mind right
now.
This is way harder than I thinkI was expecting.
(32:29):
Maybe I went in with a lot ofego.
This is really hard.
Maybe they were even youngerthan six months, probably the
newborn phase, because thenewborn phase was really hard
for me.
And my mom said, like you gotthis, and I again, I think she
was trying to be encouragingshe's like you, when your
brother was born, I was 13, 14when my brother was born and she
(32:50):
was like you would wake up inthe middle of the night with me
to give them bottles.
I was like, well, what was a 14year old doing getting up in
the middle of the night to givea baby bottle?
I had to go to school the nextday, like didn't have to take
the SATs or something, like youknow.
And I think again I think shethought that it was a compliment
like to suggest, like you havebeen babysitting, you would get
(33:10):
up in the middle of the nightwith me to take care of your
siblings.
And I was like, yeah, no wonderI'm so exhausted.
Number one, and also this islike a really common expectation
for girl children certainlyoldest immigrant daughters,
oldest black daughters, and so Icould see how a person who's
(33:31):
had to do that for their wholelife might be tired of
caretaking.
Even having done those things,it's so different than being a
parent to my tiny, to our tinyhuman.
You know, it's still different.
Even though I woke up in themiddle of the night at 14 to
change my brother's diaper orget him new bottles, it's been
(33:54):
exponentially harder than Ithink anyone could have
described to me, and alsomiraculous to Stuart Black.
Life in this world.
What a gift, what a gift toraise our child, to raise a free
black child.
And also, whoa, I need a napAll the time.
(34:20):
And also I'm just like peoplehave been doing this for
millennia.
Like what you can feel a little.
I can feel a little like oh,what am I doing wrong here?
Because maybe I haven't hackedthis or haven't cracked the code
, like no one said it was thishard, so maybe it's not actually
this hard for everyone else.
Is it just me?
(34:41):
Is it just us?
Why am I overstimulated?
Like it must be?
There must be something wrongwith me or my parenting that
makes this harder for me than ithas been for everyone else.
And then I talk to otherparents and they're like no,
it's hard for all of us.
It's hard, we just at all theages, and I think we just don't
talk about it as much as weshould or can or could, or you
(35:05):
know, and I think my experiencelately has been that we only
ever talk about it to otherparents.
So if you are not a parent,you're not a part, you're not in
the club, you're not in thesecret society, and I think part
of that is like even for myfriends who had children before
me, it's like I don't think Icould have understood all of the
minutiae, all of the mundaneways that parenting, the kind of
(35:30):
psychological toll, thephysical toll that parenting
takes on you.
I don't think that if, even ifyou told me, I don't know if I
would have believed it.
I think I saw a meme once thatwas like something along the
lines of like we have peoplehave to believe that they can do
it better and that's how wekeep having kids.
Yeah, I had to believe that.
Like I got this.
(35:52):
I've been caretaking for mywhole life.
How hard could this be Right?
Then I get in and I'm like, ohmy God, I'm drowning.
It's like it's really hard totalk about.
It's hard to talk about all ofthat because, right like there
are hilarious stories about likehilarious and like actually not
so hilarious stories about howoften your toddler is home from
(36:14):
daycare with an illness.
In fact, literally I dropped offand maybe an hour later they
called me and they were like andof course I get the call, I see
the daycare on my phone ringingand I'm like, oh my God, like
if they tell me to come get thiskid, I think my mental health
will be in shambles.
It turns out they're out ofdiapers.
(36:36):
I wish they had told me that,like a couple of days ago.
Like they literally called meat 10 am and they were like hi,
we just changed your child'sdiaper and that was the last one
, so you have to come now.
I'm like y'all didn't know thatthat was the last one Seven
diapers ago.
Like nobody could give me aheads up, right?
But luckily I'm not workingtoday, but if I were in a
meeting, like you have to dropeverything, right.
(36:58):
So they're like all these likebig and small ways that
parenting really permeates everypart of your life and identity.
You know, I remember taking oneof my friends recently invited
us somewhere like a dinner andthey were like, just bring your,
just bring the baby.
(37:18):
And I was like, I'm sorry, haveyou ever had an 8 pm dinner
with a two year old?
It's not going to be fun foranyone.
Don't invite, no, we're notcoming, or we'll get a baby
sitter.
The baby's, not the child, willnot come and like and yes, we
take our child to restaurants,nice ones even.
We take our child places,travel with them even.
(37:41):
Right, there is a at 10 am.
I take them to the restaurant.
They can do a restaurant at 10am, they cannot do a restaurant
at 8 pm, right, like you have toknow your child.
You have to know also, like, bea good neighbor to your, to
your community, right, and soyou know.
Of course, people differentpeople have different kinds of
(38:02):
children, so they will dodifferent things.
But I think there's like not onestory that illuminates what,
what it's like to love a tinyhuman in this way and wish, like
, the absolute best for them inthe most unconditional way.
(38:24):
And also like to be honest,like how, yeah, how stimulate,
how overstimulating it can be,like this morning.
So just to add to the, the factthat they called me at 10 am
about diapers.
Drop off was a hot mess thismorning.
They cried the entire morning,the entire.
(38:49):
They refused to eat breakfastat home.
They cried in the car on the wayto daycare, screaming that they
didn't want to go to school andlike I mean it was just like
constant power struggle andwhich is really common and
normal for a two and a half yearold, almost three year olds,
right, like I know this it'sdevelopmentally appropriate, and
(39:14):
also it can be really hard forparents, because something my
parents did not teach me, as youcan, as you know, as I've
talked about already, is likethey weren't necessarily great
at regulating their own emotions, right.
And so the thing that is mostimportant for me in this moment
is like how to stay regulatedfor our child right, like I
(39:35):
can't meet them in theirfrustration, I can't meet them
at their tears, I can't meetthem, and so what is actually
required for me to show up forthem is a level of emotional
regulation that I just didn'teven know I had the patience or
like possibility to do, and itactually is really hard
sometimes.
You know, they're in like ahitting phase.
(39:59):
I was like kids hit like thisis wild and it's like deeply
triggering, quite.
You know, like to be honest,like it's like really triggering
, and like I've been hit in myhousehold enough, like I'm not
about to let you two year oldhit me, like I'm not about to do
this with you, right, and Ialso have to say things like
(40:21):
mama's going to have to move herbody to stay safe.
Or, you know, can you show megentle hands?
You know, like we don't hiteven when we're angry.
Or you know, can you show me,can you?
Here's a pillow, would you like?
I see that you want to like letout some energy.
Could you hit this pillow,right?
We're trying all of the things,all of the things, and it's not
(40:45):
I'm saying the term workingbecause I know that it's like a
long process so I'm saying it'snot working in the immediate,
right.
What would work in theimmediate is probably hitting
the back, probably screaming atthem Would stop the behavior in
this moment.
And I know that in the long term, like having a steady, safe
(41:07):
adult, having an emotionallyregulated parent, is like the
best thing that I can give them.
And it's like really profound,because it's like really makes
me interrogate the amount ofpower that I have with a small
child and to not wield andweaponize it.
We had.
(41:27):
There are times I have to keepthem safe, of course, right, I'm
not about to let you run out onthe street.
I have sense, right, right.
And also like there are timeswhen it's actually like an
unnecessary power struggle.
We were like fighting overdinner the other night because
they didn't want to eat it and Ilet them have dessert first and
which I do because I don't wantto give them a complex about
(41:54):
what foods are good and whatfoods are bad.
Like food is food.
You know you need differentthings for nourishment,
including, you know, sprinkles,right, like, and so I try not to
put a lot of weight on food inthem.
But then when they got up fromthe table after eating only
yogurt with sprinkles andnothing else on the plate, I was
pissed and I was like goingback and forth with them and my
(42:16):
wife said you know, I feel likeyou're in a little bit of a
power struggle, like, let's takea break.
And it was like really is justlike a really helpful reality
check and like, come back to mybody check.
But there are so many ways thatit's both hilarious and fun to
be a parent and also like reallyhard and I would certainly say
(42:38):
to like in my like pregnancyjourney too, like I was like no
one told me about pelvic floortherapy, or like no one told me
that my boobs would leak whenany child cries, or like you
know, like no one told me that.
Like you'll be constipated forthe entire third trimester.
Like there were just thingsthat I didn't even having been
(43:00):
friends with, in deep communitywith, with folks who would get
given birth in the past, therewas a lot that I still didn't
know.
And I think, too, as a survivorof child sexual abuse and other
forms of both like family andreproductive violence, I just
(43:22):
also just breastfeeding wasreally could be really
triggering for survivors.
You know, it was, at least forme, like it was feeling like, oh
, there's this person who, like,has unfettered access to my
body is kind of wild as a personwho spent so much time trying
to regain control over my body,right, but also to feel out of
(43:42):
control.
There are things happening inon, around to my body that I'm,
like you know, don't necessarilyhave control over.
It's just a really it's just.
It can be a really harrowingexperience and I don't think
that I understood the fullspectrum of what that could look
like.
Rochelle (44:13):
I know that I am not alone when I say that parenting
is probably one of the hardestthings ever done.
There's nothing that preparesyou for the amount of inner
turmoil, self doubt and themassive responsibility of
helping to grow and nourish awhole human being.
While each individual challengemay be small in scale, the
(44:35):
impact feels huge.
Alicia (44:38):
And because it's cumulative, all of the little
things.
Every time you have to thinkabout diapers.
Did you take diapers to daycare?
Did you call that?
Make the next six monthsdoctor's appointment?
Did you make the?
Did you call the dentist's back?
Did you pick up theprescription?
Did you get a gift for theteachers for the holidays?
Did you get that gift card?
Are you on the list to for themeal train for the right?
(45:00):
And I still have to show up.
And my job.
I have a whole job.
I have a job.
I have a partner.
I allegedly I have friendships.
Right, I'm trying.
Right, it's, it's cumulative.
Rochelle (45:13):
In preparation for these stories, alicia shared
that, as a survivor of childhoodsexual and domestic abuse, her
journey to parenting has beenboth a trigger and a healing
experience.
Alicia (45:27):
Getting to parent has allowed me to repair it myself
in ways that I didn't know Ineeded.
Getting to watch themexperience joy, oh my God, do
you know how?
Kids don't care what theweather is, they want to go to
the playground.
Like the amount of time Iprobably spent more time in
(45:50):
playgrounds in the two years ofour child's life almost three
now.
Then, like I don't know, I didsince I was like 10 years old.
It has given me the space andthis is their gift to me, right,
like they have given me thespace to be playful, to get on
(46:10):
the floor in color, to roll theround.
I get to practice consent withthem, you know, and it started
so young, right, Like it startsimmediately.
Like this is what I'm doing,while I'm changing your diaper
and I'm narrating it to you,while I'm teaching you the
correct parts of your body sothat if something does happen to
(46:32):
you, you know how to talk aboutwhat is happening.
Right, I want to make sure thatthey have the tools and the
trust that we will believe them.
Right, so we practice.
You know, can I hug you even,like?
And it might seem really small,but it actually is deeply
healing to me as both a survivormyself and as a parent, to be
able to allow my child to haveconsent.
(46:54):
Sometimes it's a pain.
They're like you did not askpermission to put my shoes on,
sweetie, we're going outside.
You got to put shoes on, like Ican't.
I've not been arguing with you,right?
And there are so manyopportunities for us to actually
practice consent and, like youknow, to give them some sense of
control, which is all thatthree, almost three year olds
(47:14):
want, right and so.
So it's like deeply healing forme to get to watch this child
explore who they are.
We use gender neutral pronounswith our child, for now.
They've been kind of telling usdifferent things about like
gender.
They ask questions about otherpeople's gender.
They're like what are that?
(47:35):
What are their pronouns?
I'm like I don't know.
We can ask them or you couldjust mind your business.
But, like you could also ask, ifyou're curious, right, and I'm
like you know what are yourpronouns they will tell me what
they think mine are and we talkabout it.
Even at three, they canunderstand enough, right, and so
we try to make things age anddevelopmentally appropriate for
(47:55):
them and it's just like such agift to watch them be curious
about the world.
It's really healing.
And it can be really hardbecause things happen a lot more
slowly, right, because you haveto explain things and while I
know that it is a littlefrustrating right now, at least
(48:17):
for me, I know that in the longterm it creates a child who's a
critical thinker, a child whoquestions authority, even mine,
and who questions the world andacts with care for other people.
(48:40):
Breastfeeding was really hardfor me and, like people often
say that it's natural, it comesnaturally, like it did not come
easily for me.
I mean, yet I made breast milkand it was still really hard and
I felt like I had to be.
(49:00):
I was like very touched out andit also felt a lot like not
having.
Of course I consented to havinga child, but I didn't
necessarily understand it wasmaybe not informed consent,
right, in the sense that I don'tthink I understood what
breastfeeding would actuallyrequire of my physical body or
the presence that it required.
(49:21):
And so, especially as theystarted getting a little bit
older the newborn phase it washard, mostly because I didn't
have a child.
And as they got older, it washard because they could actually
demand it with sign language orliteral grabbing.
So it was just like I was likeoh okay, I really have to commit
to doing this.
(49:44):
And also, in some ways, kind ofbe outside of my body to enjoy
this experience.
In some ways we might call itdisassociation, which is like a
fancier term for me, and I thinkthat's a really good thing,
because we might call itdisassociation, which is like a
fancier term, for that feelingof some.
People would describe it asbeing outside of your body and
looking at yourself like you'rewatching a movie, or being
(50:07):
raised above yourself andlooking down at yourself.
That feeling of not beingtotally embodied, not being in
my physical body, but having thepresence of mind enough to know
that this is actually what Iwant to be doing for my child.
I want to be giving them thisas a survivor of child sexual
abuse, there was like thisbelief that I, this deep seated,
(50:31):
deeply held belief that I amalone.
No one in my house kept me safe.
How could I expect to ask forhelp from anyone else?
My desire for help and supportis too much.
It was too much for my ownfamily.
I couldn't possibly trust afriend to help me.
Maybe, I mean, I could trust myspouse, but can't I?
(50:54):
That's the tape, that's thestory, the narrative that we all
have them.
They're different for everyperson and that was mine.
I am not worthy of help orsupport.
If I were worthy of help andsupport, my own family would
have kept me safe.
I'm not worthy of safety, andso I think that that really
(51:20):
exacerbated the triggers earlyin kind of the postpartum
experience for me, also maybesome guilt around how I'd shown
up as a friend to people who'dhad children before me.
Just thinking about all of thepeople in my life who I love,
(51:40):
who had children, I was likesend me pictures of that cute
baby and never ask do you neednipple cream for your cracked
nipples?
I didn't know to ask right.
I didn't know to ask about howpeople's pelvic floors were
doing.
I didn't know to ask aboutwhether you've eaten enough
calories or drank enough watertoday to keep you hydrated to
make breast milk.
I didn't know to ask right.
(52:01):
So then I felt guilty aboutasking for help, because I felt
guilty about how I'd shown upfor other folks in my life, and
so most of my work has beenaround gender justice.
I've worked in rape crisiscenters, in domestic violence
unsurprisingly right In domesticviolence shelters.
I've advocated for the ViolenceAgainst Women Act.
(52:22):
I've advocated for child taxcredits, and then you actually
have to pay for daycare andyou're like, oh my, like it was
theoretical then, this is realnow.
Like it was, you know, likedoing work about Black maternal
mortality.
You know I was deeplypassionate about it.
(52:43):
You know I care deeply.
And then I'm in it and I'm like, oh, this is so real.
Like if y'all don't pay thesepeople who are providing care
and education to our children.
Rochelle (52:58):
To me, Alicia is a person with deep respect and
love for herself and others,Someone who understands her
value and is well loved.
When I sit with her stories, Isit with the clear truth that
she has worked so hard forhealing and liberation.
It is a journey, but she hastaken the lessons of her life
(53:22):
and poured them into her work,particularly in this season of
her work Philanthropy, which sheacknowledges is a flawed
institution.
But I see her.
I see the love-filled effort tomanifest real change and
liberation.
It gives me hope that the worldI wish for, while it may not
(53:44):
come in mine or my child'sgeneration, is on its way.
Alicia (53:50):
I just feel so deeply proud of what we are able to do
in Philanthropy, in the way thatwe're able to show up for our
people in some of the hardestmoments, and I can do it without
losing myself.
I can do it without losing myauthenticity.
I can do it without for lack ofa better term selling out.
I get to show up for my peoplein this very.
(54:11):
I've played many roles in, asDeepa Iyer calls, the social
justice ecosystem, and this rolethat I'm in feels so sacred to
me.
It is a sacred act of care andsolidarity to move resources to
(54:35):
folks when they need the mostand to work that would not
otherwise be resourced or fundedbecause of the type of
high-risk work that folks aretaking on, the type of work that
really challenges stateviolence and power and
colonialism and capitalism, andso, and also its attention, to
(54:57):
be working in Philanthropy andmoving resources that are the
result of oppression, capitalism, violence, Violence, racism,
untenable work conditions forworkers and in some ways, I
think of the work that I get todo as an act of reparations and
(55:19):
an act of land back.
I get to redistribute wealththat has been gained through
extraction of our communitiesand I get to move it back to the
people who know what to do withit, and that's a gift.
You know, I was feeling reallyhelpless, right, and I was like,
(55:39):
actually I have a role here,you know, and I don't have to
feel helpless because I actuallyhave a role and you just have
to be clear about what your roleis.
Show up with your gifts, right,Like you don't have to be not
everybody needs to be the bestorator.
I'm really good at spreadsheets, Like right.
Like that's my skill.
Right.
Like, yeah, I've been the ED,I've been on a bullhorn, but the
(56:02):
places where my skill was mostneeded was bringing the water,
checking on the babies, makingsure people were safe, making
sure there was a healing space,organizing the calls right.
Like.
We show up in different waysright.
And maybe your skill is musicright.
(56:24):
Maybe your skill is art.
Maybe you can make anincredible mural that speaks to
the time that we're in.
Right.
Do use your gifts, whateverthey are right, Even if they're
not the most visible.
Rochelle (56:40):
I asked Alicia if she feels she is successful.
Alicia (56:44):
If success for me right now looks like moving beyond
survival and into and likebeyond fight or flight mode,
into thriving, into healing,into breaking generational like
curses, then yeah, I'm proud ofmyself for succeeding in that
(57:06):
way, and that means more than adegree, that means more than a
job.
You know, like my firstresponsibility is actually to
myself and I'm finally able tosee that, even if I can't do all
of it right now, I can see itand that feels like a success to
(57:27):
me.
You know I do a lot of innerchild work and therapy, because
I can be very critical of myinner child and also the ways
that I've survived up until thispoint.
And so I think that what I'dsay to a 12-year-old I think
what I needed to hear most at 12was like you are not alone,
(57:50):
right, and you deserve safetyand you deserve protection,
right, and you don't have tofight alone.
I promise you there are peoplewho love you and who care about
you and who will fight for andwith you, even if they're not in
(58:11):
this house right now, andthey're doing the best they can
in this house.
They are doing what they canwith what they've got and what
they know, and I promise youthat I believe you, that you're
not making this up and that youare.
You can be safe.
Right, it might take a reallylong time and it does, and it
(58:33):
has, but healing is possible foryou.
Rochelle (58:42):
Deep gratitude to Alicia for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rochelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe Arts and Humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit bymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash.
Tell H er This For more.
(59:03):
Tell Her his content.
Please visit tellherthespodcast.
com and follow on social media@tellherthespodcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(59:23):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Wreh Jallah, and I amyour host, Rochelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rochelle RiceMusic across all social
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell.
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