January 24, 2024 • 63 mins
Jillian is vibrant and talented, and like many of us, is doing her best to navigate life. Listen as she opens her heart about her greatest challenges, including a traumatic assault and a major professional setback. Her story is a raw testament to the strength found in vulnerability and clear perspective.
If you’re still on the journey, if you need a new perspective, if you don’t give up, this one’s for you
**This episode includes explicit language and includes references to traumatic assault. Sensitive listeners are advised.**
Tell Her This is a podcast of honest, heartfelt, and real stories from women and for women who live real lives and are as messy and complex as they are beautiful.
No advice. No self-help. Just perspective and stories.
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This episode includes music by Maya Rogers. If you'd like to hear more from Maya and support her new project, Orion and The Remembering Tree click here!
Thanks for listening! Please subscribe, leave a rating, and follow Tell Her This on all platforms @tellherthispodcast
This episode includes music by Maya Rogers. Click here to hear more from Maya and support her new project, Orion and The Remembering Tree!
Thanks for listening! Please subscribe, leave a rating, and follow Tell Her This on all platforms @tellherthispodcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rochelle (00:00):
Hello, I'm your host, Rochelle Rice, and this is Tell
Her this, a storytellingpodcast.
No advice, no self-help, juststories from women who represent
people just like me and justlike you.
What began as a journey morethan 6,000 miles around the US
has continued to even moreincredible stories from women
(00:22):
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(00:43):
The link is also in the shownotes.
Please check the show notes andepisode rating if you are so
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Alright, let's get started.
Jillian (01:01):
This is the Tell Her this podcast.
I am Jillian Willis and I am 28.
Rochelle (01:15):
My friend Jillian is bright, glowy, introspective and
incredibly talented.
As a preacher's kid straightout of the Midwest, she's used
to living in the in-betweenIntuitive artist and studied
academic, christian, midwestgirl and spiritual seeker.
(01:35):
We met through a HowardUniversity connection and both
share alumni status of theaward-winning jazz vocal
ensemble Afro Blue.
Jillian is on a journey, a workin progress, a journey of
learning how to take your lossesand heal and get back up again.
(01:55):
These are her stories.
Jillian (02:00):
I am a daughter, I am a sister, I'm a friend.
I show up as an artist, as astoryteller.
I like to think of myself as astoryteller.
I am the baby of the family.
(02:23):
I have an older sister and wegrew up with my two parents.
My parents are extremelysupportive.
They're very loving.
They did not get it right allthe time Not as any I guess
parent would but just very, verysupportive.
(02:44):
Music and singing was somethingthat was always just a part of
our home.
My dad is a pastor.
He plays the organ and thepiano, but he also sings a lot.
Music was just really big.
He's a huge Clark Sisters fan,so we were always listening to
(03:07):
the Clark Sisters.
That filled our homes.
When that documentary came outnot documentary, but that
Lifetime movie my dad watched itat least eight times.
He wore that Lifetime movie out.
Music was such a big part of ourhome.
I remember, and I still do it.
(03:29):
When I go home, before hespeaks, he'll ask me to sing.
I remember specifically therewas this one time when I was I
had to have been like seven oreight where he, I guess, heard
me sing the song.
He was like you know, jillian,if you sing this song before I
(03:52):
get up and speak.
I'll buy you whatever you want.
I'm like, all right, bet.
So I was like I want a dollSomehow.
He heard dog.
So I get up, I sing the song anda few days passed and we're in
the car and we end up at thiscandle.
I'm like okay, what are wedoing?
He's like you wanted a dog.
(04:12):
I was like no, I said doll andit's funny because we ended up
getting a dog who was alive atleast 19 years.
But I don't know, that has justalways music has just always
been a part of our lives and ithas always been this like
integral thing.
Growing up, we moved around alot, just out of financial, I
(04:39):
guess, woes or you know, keepingup with the Joneses, whatever
you want to call it.
And I will say that our churchbecause my dad like owns that
and you know that was constant,but also music was always
constant.
So I think we just kind ofnaturally like gravitated
(05:01):
towards those two things.
Rochelle (05:05):
As a preacher's kid, a PK, jillian and her sister had
a lot to live up to, but fromthe start, jillian had her heart
set on the stage.
Coming from a musical family,her gifts were certainly
nurtured, and while her parentsdidn't have the resources for
private lessons and workshops,what they did have was their
(05:28):
unwavering support and, best ofall, their physical presence.
Jillian (05:34):
I feel like they definitely nurtured it.
I think there are some thingsthey just you don't know what
you don't know.
So I was never in like pianoclasses growing up or you know I
never like got like voicelessons at the child, but I was
in every choir in high school,like I was in like the show
(05:56):
choir and I was in the acapellaensemble and like my parents
were always there like front andcenter.
So like the resources that theycould give me or the ways they
could show for me, theydefinitely did it to the best of
their ability.
There was a time where this isme in college.
(06:16):
I had a.
I was staying at UTC and my dadFaceTime me and I was getting
ready for this Afro Blues atlike Blues Alley or something,
and my dad FaceTime me.
He was like what you doing?
I'm like I'm just getting readyfor this gig, like what you
doing.
He was like I'm downstairs, I'mlike what are you talking about
?
And this man literally drove intown to come to the concert.
(06:42):
He spent the night the nextmorning he left Like he drove
back home and it's just like I'mnot going to act like again,
like my parents were superperfect or you know that they
had everything figured out Likethere's.
There were definitely like a lotof hardships we had, but, um,
outside of that, like I just Igrew up in a I could literally
(07:06):
decide to be a mime tomorrow andmy parents would be like that,
like do it, like you, you canabsolutely do that and I just I
appreciate that because I know alot of people don't have that.
I was very like spunky and Iwas spoken and just was like in
(07:27):
all these different likemusicals and plays and like
spoke my mind and was verydramatic and like definitely the
firecracker of my family.
My sister is is much more quietand much more reserved and she,
you know, keeps herself and I'mjust the one that's like I'll
give you buck, like let's go.
(07:48):
My sister taught me how todrive.
My sister, you know, like youidolize, like as the baby, like
I just called her yesterday andlike you got any clothes that
you don't want so I could takethem.
But yeah, we are, we are asclose as we can be.
(08:11):
I think my family has kind ofadopted that.
You know what happens in thishouse stays in this house or we
don't really talk about stuff.
We kind of just like sleepunder the rug, and so we've kind
of adopted that within how weinteract with each other.
So we're not close like oh,this is what happened to me
today, and da, da, da, da, da,but like close in regards of
(08:31):
like yeah, like I love you andwe're going to go to the Beyonce
concert together and get drunkand have fun, and yeah.
Rochelle (08:43):
Jillian's family is loving and close knit as the
youngest sibling.
Some experiences, like dealingwith a mental illness, diagnosis
of an immediate family memberor even heading off to college,
were just different.
Jillian (08:59):
For some reason, she was the one that butt heads a
lot with my mom.
When my mom would kind of havelike these alburs, she would be
the one that kind of got thebrunt of it.
And so, being like 10, 15 yearsremoved from that and being
like, do you remember what mommydid X, y and Z, and she'd be
like, yeah, I do.
Or, like you know, memoriesthat you know you push to the
(09:24):
back of your mind Like, oh, Iforgot about that.
Like you know, trauma responseI don't have as much luxury to
be like I live in New York, solike I don't have the luxury to
just be like, yeah, fuck it.
Like whatever I want to do,whereas you know she has my
(09:46):
parents.
And on the flip side of that, Ithink this is also just like
bringing up this kind of I don'tknow like survivor's guilt that
I have for moving Like, oh, I'mabout to cry.
Like my sister, she wanted togo to Columbia, chicago, and I
(10:09):
remember her like talking about,like she's really so, whereas
my dad and I are really intolike the musical arts or like
stuff like that, my mom and mysister were like both like
visual artists, like we wouldcome back home and my mom would
like have rooms like painteddifferent colors.
They're both like very visualartists, very like into like
(10:30):
interior design, like into allof that stuff.
And so my sister, she wanted togo into like hospitality and
wanted to like open hotels.
I'm sure she still wants tolike open hotels and like do all
that stuff.
And I remember her wanting to goto Columbia, chicago, and my
parents are like, no, you needto go to like an in-state school
.
When she ended up going to thein-state school, whereas me, on
(10:52):
the other hand, I'm like girl,I'm not staying.
I'm so sorry and into mydetriment, because my parents,
they knew that going out ofstate was a huge you know feat,
(11:14):
but they didn't know how to likefully articulate it.
So now I'm in all this debtbecause I didn't think in high
school, I wasn't told in highschool, hey, you need to, you
know, do X, y and Z, you need toapply for scholarships.
So, but I say all that to saylike I do wish that she was
afforded the liberty to justlike go, move to another.
(11:35):
And she, I mean she still can.
But you know, you get older,you like create roots in a place
and I'm not.
I also don't want to make itseem like she just hasn't done
anything, like my sister wasjust in Paris Like she lives her
life, like she went to NewOrleans see Beyonce, like she
lives life.
But I do wonder what it wouldbe like if she didn't, you know,
(11:56):
have to take the brunt, I guess, of my mom's like frustrations
and you know all of that, andwas able to just like fully,
like exist and be and go toColumbia and they have all these
new experiences, jillian grewup in the Christian church, a
daughter of a preacher.
Rochelle (12:17):
That, and for those who know that, comes with a
whole set of culture andexpectations about what one's
spirituality and faith shouldlook like.
But for Jillian, especially inthe past few years, her faith
has expanded, as she activelyseeks practices that nourish her
(12:37):
spirit.
I asked her how she came tothis journey.
Jillian (12:42):
Definitely an unraveling.
I think I'm a very dramaticperson, so it couldn't have been
anything but an unraveling.
So 2020 came and this whole,like I would say, 2015, 2016, I
had, you know, kind of came intoa relationship with God.
Like you know, you grow up inchurch and it's like these are
(13:04):
the ritualistic things that youdo.
But, like 2015, 2016, I waslike okay, like let me you know
pray for myself, like let me youknow figure things out.
But it wasn't until like 2018where I started getting into
like the more supernatural stuff, so like prophecy and speaking
(13:25):
in tongues and words ofknowledge and all that stuff.
And so 2020 came and I wassinging at this church, or I was
attending this church inBaltimore.
The pastor of the church atthis point I had just got
accepted into MSM, msm.
Rochelle (13:44):
Manhattan School of Music, one of the world's
premier music conservatories,and where Jillian attended grad
school.
Jillian (13:54):
I was about to leave in a few weeks and they gave me a
pretty like hefty scholarship,but I still like had money that
I needed to, like you know, beresponsible for, which is so
different concern, likeconsidering that, howard, I got
nothing.
I didn't get anything until Igot to Afro Blue.
And so I was in church oneSunday and the pastor, she just
(14:19):
starts like prophesying and shewas like I see that there's some
funds and some grants in yourfuture, because there's still
money that you're in need of.
And God is saying I'm going tofund this.
And da, da, da, da.
And I'm like on the floor I'mcrying and all that I'm doing
the whole thing.
And so I was like, okay, bet,like I'm not doing anything.
(14:39):
So I moved to New York and MSMFinancial Aid is messaging me
like, hey, girl, you still owethis amount of money.
And I'm like, well, I'm notapplying for Financial Aid
because God told me that, likeJesus said, that I wasn't going
to have to pay for this.
So where the grants at?
But like, by that point,because I, because I applied for
(15:00):
the program late, because I gotaccepted late, I missed a lot
of the deadlines forscholarships and for grants and
all that stuff.
So I think that was thebeginning of it, where it was
just like, okay, no, you reallyhave to apply for financial aid
Because the grant hasn't.
(15:20):
The grant is not here in theroom with us.
Babes, you gotta.
If you want to stay, you gotta.
And so I think that was thebeginning of just been like huh,
like these words or theseprophecies that I'm holding so
near and dear to my heart,they're not panning out the way
(15:41):
that I envision them panning out, and I think I think between
that and then just living in NewYork in general just did a lot
of unraveling of me, just beingthis person.
And again, like I stillidentify, like as a Christian,
(16:06):
like I still, you know, believeJesus died for our sins, but I
think I'm in a place now where Ijust don't believe that, you
know, I think whatever works forpeople, like if that serves
(16:27):
them and if that gives them asense of safety and security,
like I believe that, like Idon't, I don't think there's
just one way, I don't thinkthere's one way to peace into
eternity and all that stuff.
New York is just, it forces youto do that because you're not in
(16:47):
a bubble.
There's so many differentpeople, there's so many
different experiences that youcome in touch with.
Like I just dated a Muslim I2018, jillian would never like
the whole scripture about beingequally, unequally young.
Just like girl, what did you doit?
But yeah, I just.
I think I just am expandingthis very small idea that I had
(17:18):
of God, or this small like, yeah, this small vision that I had
of God, but also like churchheart and like also like
disappointment.
So it was like these two thingsworking in tandem that like
kind of put me in this place ofjust being like yeah, I'm not
that person anymore.
I used to be like a very big, uh, super Christian.
(17:42):
I still like I'm still aChristian, but like I used to be
like wake up five am in themorning speaking in tongues.
You know, I went like literally, I spent a birthday the week
before a lockdown.
I spent my 25th birthday atlike a church convention.
Just like girl, why?
But I say I'd say like I'm notthat person anymore, but I've
(18:06):
been like finding myself like inangel numbers and I feel like,
oh, jillian would be likeJillian, that's so demonic.
I feel like my angel number is222 and 222 is like, uh, like
divine alignment and, like youknow, balance, and you know
you're exactly where you'resupposed to be, and so, like I
see that a lot it's just likeokay, like things are not
(18:27):
perfect, things are far fromideal.
I ain't got no job, but I justI don't know Like.
I just I feel like I'm whereI'm supposed to be, even though
a lot of it doesn't make anysense.
I had posted like a video of mesinging it as well and I like
made this very because I'mdramatic.
(18:48):
I made this like very dramaticcaption, like oh, I feel like
Job's wife more than I feel likeJob.
I just want to curse God anddie.
And you had said the.
You said like the blessing orthe gift is in the journey, and
like that just resonates.
I mean it's hard to resonatewith, but or it's hard for me to
(19:08):
like fully have resolve in it,but it's.
It's like yeah, like I amallowing myself to just expand,
I don't know, or to allow myview to be more like malleable
than what it's it's ever been.
Rochelle (19:33):
I love and know God, as I believe Jillian does too.
But I would be a liar if Ididn't say that I have been
confounded in my own explorationand rooting of my faith, and
nothing can be more perplexingthan when trying to hear from
God on a matter of the heart.
Jillian (19:52):
Funny funny enough, it was the same denomination but a
different pastor.
So in the thick of lockdownthis had to have been May 2020,
there was this prophet thatwould do these lives, these IG
lives, and he would get on andhe would give, I guess, words of
(20:14):
knowledge.
So these very specific detailsthat applied to whoever was
watching.
So he's going through his wordsof knowledge.
He was like Howard University,like Howard University, and I
like looked down and I'm like,wear my Howard shirt.
I'm like, oh, he's talkingabout me.
So I like type in the chat.
I'm like, yeah, I went toHoward University.
(20:36):
And he brings me on and hestarts prophesying and, you know
, started prophesying about whatI now think was my move to New
York.
But one of the things that hesaid was by this time next year,
there'll be a connection thatyou'll have with the person that
(20:59):
I I being God made for you outof the dirt.
And I'm like, oh, so that's myman.
Like okay, so fast forward toMay 2021.
I moved to New York.
I was finishing up my firstyear at MSM.
This guy asked me on Instagramand we're talking and the dates
(21:24):
from the date from when I gotthe prophecy to like when he
initially like reached out to me, was like maybe a few days
apart, and I'm like, oh, this ismy man, Like this is the one.
And so we started talking.
He lived across the country.
(21:46):
I did not know this person.
I had saw him three timesbefore we became officially a
couple.
So October he came to New Yorkbecause he was looking at grad
schools and that was our firsttime meeting a person.
We went to a show together andI was like I don't know, but
(22:06):
like I was still like whatever.
And so the second time we saweach other, kayla and I went.
We went to a festival in Vegasand he came and I like kind of
ended up making Kayla a thirdwheel.
Kayla was pissed.
Kayla was like bitch, don'tever do this again.
(22:27):
Like you out of your fuckingmind.
I just moved.
I could be at home if I knewyou was going to be booed up
with this man you met on theinternet.
Rochelle (22:35):
She's talking about Kayla, who you may remember from
episode four of season one.
Jillian (22:41):
We had a good time, but it was.
It was a little rough.
And then I saw him in Januaryin Houston and so that's when we
made it official and again likejust leaning on this word of
just like, oh, this is yourperson, like, oh, this is who
you're supposed to be with.
And so we were in a longdistance relationship.
(23:02):
He was applying for gradschools, looking at different
grad schools, and he hadmentioned that where I went to,
grad school, was like his topchoice.
So I was like, oh, this isperfect.
Like not only are you myhusband, but like the school
that I went to you're alsolooking at going to.
And I think, in the back of mymind, I think I, you know, even
(23:22):
if it wasn't his top choice, I,you know, wanted him to be there
.
Because, again, I'm likehanging on to this word that
this is my person.
So he ends up moving to NewYork and he is not who I thought
he was, and not in a bad way ornot in a like, oh, he's abusive
(23:49):
or you know he's not, you knowhe's condescending.
It wasn't any of that, one ofthe kindest and most gentle
people I've encountered in mylife.
But I, I don't know.
I just, and I, I kept waitingfor like this, like switch to
(24:13):
happen and be like, oh, this isit.
Like, oh, this is my person.
Like, oh, like, why aren't youaligning?
But I, it never happened.
And I think I had a conversationwith one of my homegirls and I
was like I don't know if Iactually like him or if I just
(24:34):
like being in a relationship andif I like you know, look, god
answered my prayer.
Like I'm with my person, I justdidn't click.
And so I was in my bestfriend's wedding.
(24:57):
He got married and at thebachelorette party they had like
a select the bachelor.
I was in the bridal party, onthe bride side, so the
bachelorettes had their separateparty, the grooms had their
like separate party, and thenthey came together.
I got very drunk and I made outwith the best man, so bad.
(25:18):
And I went home and in mind you, this is like.
After I had been talking withhim, I like voiced my concerns
and like voiced like, oh, I'mnot happy, like is there
anything we can do?
And so he was aware that Iwasn't happy and I this is not
just justification of me likekissing this other person.
(25:40):
But yeah, I got back home and Itold him what happened and he
was not happy and we decided totake a break.
And the break was supposed tolike somehow give us space to
work on ourselves, to come backtogether.
But I and I feel terrible aboutit.
(26:06):
But, like, I just decided like Idon't, I don't want this
anymore, like, so we broke upand he, he began to spiral like
mentally, and it's not evenuntil like recently that I've
kind of like allowed myself tolet that go.
(26:30):
I felt, or I, yeah, felt, Idon't feel that way anymore.
Like I've definitely felt likeresponsible for him being in
that space and him not beingwell.
Yeah, and I, I'm better now.
I mean, obviously, I'm not somecrying, yeah, it was just
(26:52):
really, it was really difficultwith me and there's a part of me
because I've, you know, sincedated and since met people, but
there's a part of me that's justlike, bitch, you gonna pay for
this.
You are in karma, you are in acycle of karma until you learn
(27:14):
your lesson, until because ofwhat you did to this person, and
I'm in therapy.
So, like I know that to not betrue, but yeah, I just, and it's
it feels, I don't know, a partof me feels very, very, very
like, I guess, justirresponsible, because I I
(27:43):
brought him here.
I mean, I didn't bring him here, but like he literally gave up
everything he knew, he sold hiscar like, made all these plans
and, you know, moved across thecountry for me and I just
decided I was done, I'm betternow, but like I just there's a
(28:07):
lot of like, there was a lot oflike guilt that I was harboring
for feeling responsible for,kind of like, the unraveling of
this person.
Rochelle (28:22):
The episode isn't over yet, but I want to take a
minute to say tell her thisneeds your support.
This is a self-funded project,but for less than a cup of
coffee you can keep this laborof love going.
Click the link in the shownotes to buy me a coffee, or
head over to buy me a coffee.
Dot com forward, slash, tellher this and donate what you can
(28:44):
.
All right, let's get back tothe show.
Jillian attended HowardUniversity for her undergraduate
degree in jazz studies.
Unfortunately, at a certainpoint she could no longer pay
for school and had to take asemester off.
She was devastated, to say theleast, and then the unthinkable
(29:06):
happened.
Jillian (29:08):
I took, I didn't take time off of school.
It was I had to take time offof school because I had a this
like ridiculous back balanceBecause, again, I didn't know
anything about financial aid orscholarships or none of that.
I just literally came to Howardon vibes and so, eventually,
like I had like it had to havebeen like $15,000 that I owed to
(29:32):
school and I was like they'relike girl, okay, this is cute,
but you got to leave and I wasgone for a semester, so it was
spring semester, and I wasliterally only able to come back
that fall because of my mom,because my mom was like, okay,
we're going to do X, y and Z,like we're going to save this
amount of money.
(29:53):
We're going to like like she,she is in a lot of ways like the
quintessential.
You know I, I'm the oil thatkeeps this machine running and
like and I just appreciate herand I and I love her and I feel
like I don't say that enough.
(30:15):
That was just like a really likenot great time in my life, like
a really like dark time.
I felt like such a failure forhaving to go back home.
I felt like why didn't you, youknow, have the knowledge to
apply for scholarships.
Like, why didn't you try harderin high school?
Like, why did you do this, whydid you do that?
And so it felt like damn, likeI got to go back home, like this
(30:40):
is this sucks.
And so obviously my mom was abig, like a very instrumental
part in me coming back to Howard.
But yeah that.
So I went home.
(31:00):
I was not in a great headspace,I was not very happy that I had
to come back home and I washanging out with this guy that I
knew from high school, that Ialways kind of knew was like
attracted to me, like we wouldflirt here and there, but like
(31:20):
it wasn't anything like superdeep, and we were at his house
one day and he he sexuallyassaulted me.
I remember having to go, so itwas like a pretrial basically.
So you like, because at first Ididn't even want to press
(31:40):
charges.
I was like this happened, likeit is what it is.
But I ended up like talking toa lot of my girlfriends or like
confining in some of mygirlfriends and they're like no
girl, we've heard him do this toother people.
Like you need to like dosomething.
And so I ended up pressing thecharges, whatever, or attempting
to press charges, and so theyhave you do this like pretrial
(32:01):
and I went into like this roomwith this Jerry and you
basically sit down and you gothrough like what happened and
this like line of questioninghappens and you know, someone
read the definition of rape tome and was like are you sure?
(32:22):
And it, it was, it was, it wasdifficult and it was I left
feeling so shitty and it didn'tgo anywhere, like they dropped
the charges or they dropped thecase.
I mean, I guess, the courage tonot allow that to define me or
(32:45):
not allow.
And we've talked about like howI'm really big into titles or
like how titles have like kindof steered my life and you know,
steered a lot of how I look atmyself.
And so I think me choosing togo back to school, me choosing
(33:08):
to, you know, continue on withlife, was just like yeah, no,
this happened, this was shitty,like this was not ideal.
But we hear we don't keep itpushing.
Rochelle (33:22):
Jillian has a beautiful vocal sound and
artistry.
Her music is spiritual anddraws from the rich well of
music and culture that has beena part of her life.
Along her way the church,soulfulness, jazz and hip hop In
2021, she began an analysis ofthe influences of hip hop on
(33:47):
culture and the elements ofblack American music and culture
that influenced hip hop.
This marked a pivot towardsJillian's new path and honoring
of her love of jazz and hip hopas culture and academic
intersection, and with that Linkin the Chain podcast was born.
Jillian (34:11):
I started a podcast in July 2021.
And I began this podcastbecause I just love hip hop.
When I talked earlier about thething that remained constant in
(34:33):
like my family and I likemoving around, like it being
like the church and like itbeing music.
The first time we moved it wasthe summer before seventh grade,
some summer around there and sowe lost our house that we were
living in, and so my parentsshipped my sister and I down to
(34:55):
Fort Worth to stay with mygrandmother.
We were there for like threeweeks and it was during that
time I had an iPod and my sisterlike put all her music on the
iPod.
So she put like TI versus TIPand like late registration.
I'm like what is this?
(35:15):
But it just, I don't know.
It did something for me, and sowhen I got back home, we were
like living in this home thatone of the people from our
church like rented to us likethey own the house and they
rented it out to us.
And when I got back home, Ijust like discovered outcast and
(35:37):
I would, you know, call myselfMrs Andre Lauren Benjamin.
Like I was very, just, likelike fully immersed in hip hop,
and so that became a constantand I didn't.
I would never call myself arapper, I'm not a rapper but I
just found myself just almostlike entranced in it and wanting
(36:03):
to know more about it andwanting to know, like a lot of
the wise.
I had a boyfriend in highschool and I'll never forget
this.
It was election night, 2012.
And we were sitting in aparking lot in Best Buy and we
(36:25):
were listening to Sing About MeI'm Dinah Thers by Kendrick and
he went through and he brokedown everything and he was like,
oh, this is why they faded itout right here, because
so-and-so and and you know, thisis connected to this song.
And I actually talked to themon my podcast and I was like wow
, that's dope as hell, like thatis so cool that you were able
(36:47):
to find all of that like within,like this four minute song, and
that kind of always stuck withme.
And so I've always just beenattracted to like analysis and
you know, didn't know it at thetime, didn't know that it was
like analysis and research andall that stuff, but it just was
(37:08):
very cool to like breaksomething down.
The pandemic hit and I like Ithink a lot of people were just
trying to figure out.
Okay, what is going on?
Like, what can I do?
How can I keep myself busy?
And I was like you know what?
I'm gonna start a blog.
Like I'm starting a blog andit's gonna be about all of the
(37:32):
stuff that I find and I'm justgonna write it and that's it.
I'm just gonna post on my blogand it's gonna be about hip hop
and all the stuff.
And then I learned that I'm nota good writer, I'm a terrible
writer, or like I just I don'tknow.
Like I feel like writers havelike an ebb and a flow, and you
know they can, and I just itwasn't mean.
(37:53):
And so I was talking to one ofmy friends is like well, why
don't you start a podcast?
I'm like, oh, that's sosaturated, like if I got a
podcast.
But I was like, no, like maybeI will, like I'll start this
podcast.
And so I started the podcast.
And this is like a year after,because I started I decided to
have a blog in 2020.
And then I kind of left it alone.
And then 2021, I was like, huh,maybe I'll start a podcast.
(38:15):
So started this podcast and itwas great.
I did my little research and,mind you, like I had no, it was
just vibes Like I would go, Iwouldn't try not to use
Wikipedia, but like I would, youknow, watch documentaries and I
(38:36):
would read books and I would,you know, just find all of these
you know connections, or try tomake all these connections.
Rochelle (38:44):
Link in the chain podcast is excellent.
It's smart and interesting andif you're into hip hop or even
if you just want to nerd out onbeautiful analysis of poetry and
culture, I highly recommendthat you go and take a listen.
Jillian (39:00):
Hey y'all, you're listening to Link in the chain,
a bi-weekly podcast that aims toreveal the depth and vastness
of hip hop, one episode at atime.
We take our favoritemethodologies, albums, artists
and songs and strip them to thecore, figuring out what exactly
makes them so magnetic.
I'm your host, jaleen Grace.
Let's get started.
Rochelle (39:22):
Link in the chain is on hiatus because y'all
independent podcasting is nojoke.
Major podcasts have a team ofeditors, fact checkers,
producers, engineers, sounddesigners, but when you are
doing it all by yourself, whenyou are inhabiting all of those
roles, it's like a wholeseparate business.
(39:45):
If you're an entrepreneur orindependent business owner,
shoot if you run a household.
I know, you know.
Jillian (39:53):
I was doing it in the school year and just being in
grad school and living in NewYork, all of the shit that comes
with that I just got tired andI was like I can't do this, and
so I tried to do a smallerversion of it where I would talk
about things that werehappening in the culture.
(40:18):
But that felt very shade, roomyand I didn't want to do that
either.
I don't want to talk aboutgossip or talk as if it's a
gossip.
Look, I just want to talk aboutthings that I like.
So I stopped.
Rochelle (40:31):
Gillian's work with Link in the chain podcast set
her up for an opportunity thatwould boost her work and
validate this mostly untappedarea of study.
And for Gillian, a newprofessional heading out into
the world of academia wouldultimately lead to a massive
knock to her professional andartistic confidence 2022 rolls
(40:56):
around.
Jillian (40:56):
I graduated, was trying to figure out what I was going
to do, like where I was going towork, and so this school
reached out to me.
They were like yeah, we spoketo the head of your department,
we have a vacancy to teach, andthey recommended you and you
could teach whatever you want.
(41:18):
You can.
Actually, I've actually heardyour podcast when I looked you
up and I taught a history of hiphop class as a summer class, so
if you wanted to take that overand teach it during the school
year, you could do that and youcould teach a history class or a
history of jazz class.
(41:39):
And so I was like OK, bet, likeI knew nothing about it, and he
looked out for me.
I will say that, like thatwhite man, definitely, I
probably shouldn't say that, butthat white man definitely
looked out for me and he sent mehis CV and was like OK, make a
CV that looks like this, or putall the information, because I
(42:02):
sent him this fucking resume Imade on cam, but it was all
colorful.
He's like OK, that's cute, butactually like doing like this,
I'm OK with that.
And so I get a job.
And they're like oh, we wantyou to build this like jazz
program.
Like we have students on campus, they have all these clubs
where they have these ensemblesand there's a love for jazz here
(42:27):
, but we just want to cultivateit.
So we want to have like anacademic ensemble and we want to
have these classes on BlackAmerican music.
They gave me this huge task andI'm not even going to hold you.
I did that shit.
Like, looking back, I gave myall to that job.
(42:49):
It was two and a half hours oneway I was commuting, two and a
half hours one way I wasstudying.
I was, you know, they hired melike two weeks before the school
year started, so I wasbasically teaching someone
else's curriculum, but I wasstudying that curriculum.
I was doing everything I can, Iwas showing up for the job.
They wanted to.
They had like an annual holidayconcert for the president each
(43:14):
year and so they had just got anew president and so they want
to throw this big fancy concertand, like you know, highlight
them having this new president,but also highlight this academic
jazz ensemble that was newlyformed.
And those folks, those lovelypeople, they did not help me
(43:37):
with anything.
I had to find my own musicians.
They paid for the musicians,that's it.
I got them hotel rooms.
I had to rent a van totransport all of them from New
York upstate.
I fed them.
Like I and my kids sound good,like my.
(44:01):
Like I had two ensembles, likeI had an instrumental ensemble
and I had a vocalist ensembleand they both sound like they
were just so good.
And I mean outside of that,like I wasn't.
I'm not going to act, like I amjust this, you know academic
and this scholar who, like, hasall the right words and uses
(44:22):
fancy words in my lectures andall that shit.
Like I spoke to my studentslike how I'm talking now, but I
resonated with my kids.
Like I had my little history hiphop class and I had my little
jazz history class and we hadreal conversations and I felt
like I was building somethingwith these kids, with all of
(44:46):
these kids I was coming andcounter with.
Like I was the only black womanin my department, no-transcript
, so that was isolating.
But like I also felt like itgave me an in and I have
Incredible rapport with my.
I literally saw these blackkids.
(45:09):
I was leaving campus one day Iwas like leaving my office and
it was a group of black kids.
I was like, hey, like I'mprofessor Willis, like you know
nice to meet you.
I teach a class like y'allshould sign up for it.
They literally signed up for myclass that semester, like I
knew, and I saw it in my courseevaluations.
I saw it in just how theygravitated towards me, like they
(45:30):
would come to my office andjust talk to me, like I Knew I
made an impact.
Rochelle (45:36):
Jillian was passionate about her work,
putting in the time and effortto really build a program that
nourished the artistry of youngmusicians, especially young
black musicians, in aninstitution where they didn't
really see themselves or theirmusic culture.
Jillian's contract was for ninemonths and she realized that
(45:57):
she really wanted to continuethe work that she'd begun the
semester Ends.
Jillian (46:03):
We had just had this concert.
It was incredible.
And I go to the person thatreached out to me and I was like
, hey, if I wanted to continuehere, what would that look like?
Like?
How could I?
Because my I was on a contractout of nine month contract and
so he was like, well, we havethis job position opening, which
was I should have known I theysent me up for failure so bad.
(46:26):
The title of the position waslike Lecturer in Afro diasporic
music and culture.
It's like what the fuck does?
That could literally beBrazilian music, that could be
jazz, that could.
What the fuck are you lookingfor?
And because it was like atechnical school, they really
(46:48):
put an emphasis on Like how manydegrees you had.
So like, even when it came tome hiring my musicians for the
concert, they based how muchmoney they pay them on how many
degrees they had.
Fucked up, terrible.
But he tells me we have thisposition opening.
If you want to stay, apply forthe position.
Okay, in the job descriptionthey Wanted or they know that
(47:12):
they wanted some of a PhD.
I'm like my own PhD.
I barely got a man.
Oh, I'm not gonna say I barelygot a masters but I have a PhD.
But they were like still apply.
Worst case scenario we findsomebody who, because it's afro
diasporic, it can literally bein type of music within the
diaspora.
We could have somebody elsethat's not in your wheelhouse.
(47:34):
Your job goes unscathed.
You're cool.
I'm like okay, bet, so I applyfor the position.
I Go through the whole thing.
There was this day long I hadlike this All these activities
are like all these interviewsthat I had to do and I had to
(47:55):
give this lecture on like myartistic research and and
basically like just what I wastalking about and you know why
they should hire me again.
But then I also had to teachlike this mock class and I could
invite my students to commentit in, but the faculty they're
the hiring committee was inthere as well.
(48:16):
This day long Think of justEvents and you know jumping from
through hoops and you knowgoing on tours of the campus,
even though I done been therefor a whole semester.
Like having me jump through allthese hoops, semester ends and
my the, the colleague that waskind of helping me, he, he, I
(48:41):
will I'm removed enough from itnow to acknowledge like he
definitely was looking out forme.
You know, he definitely had myback, like I will absolutely say
that, but he just had a newbornand so he wasn't, as I guess,
involved as he could have been.
But, you know, was kind ofnudging me, helping me along the
way.
So I had a conversation withhim.
He was like yeah, don't worryabout it.
(49:02):
Like it may take a couple ofweeks for them to get back to
you, but You're fine, like I'mpretty sure you're fine, I'm
okay.
But so Memorial Day comes, Istill hadn't heard anything.
The school year ended, had tobeen like end of April, may,
hadn't heard anything.
I'm okay, this is weird, likewhat's going on?
So I Reach out to the woman whowas kind of facilitating her,
(49:29):
like Setting up my interview andsetting up all that stuff, like
an administrative shit, sometype of administrative position,
and I was like hey, just wantedto follow up on, you know, the
decision that they made orthey've come to the conclusion.
Like what's going on?
She doesn't respond to me, hrresponds to me and they're in.
(49:52):
The lady was super sweet.
She was like at this time, youknow, the the search committee
has decided to close theapplication.
Like we thank you for your time, but you decided to close
application.
If you have any questions, youcan reach me at this number.
So I call her.
I'm like yeah, so what?
What's going on?
And she was like, yeah, theyjust decided.
(50:12):
Now, they didn't necessarilyfind what they were looking for,
so they decided to close theapplication.
I was like, okay, I understand,like that's fine.
Again, didn't go into thisthinking that I will actually
get the position because I don'thave a PhD.
Like I've been working withy'all all year.
I know how pressed y'all are tohave these pieces of paper and
it's crazy because I'm I'm notgoing to my own horn, but like,
(50:36):
if we're talking about it's likeexperience.
If we're talking about likein-field experience, I'm better
than all y'all.
Like the degrees, like I havemore experience with this music
Period, like out of all of y'all.
So the fact that you're Holdingme back because I don't have
this, whatever, whatever.
(50:57):
So I was, I was talking and Iwas, okay, that's fine, but like
I guess I'm wondering you knowwhat that means for my position?
And she was like oh my god, I'mso sorry.
I am just now realizing who youare, bitch.
I didn't even know that I wasworking at work in HR.
I didn't even know that I wasworking at the school.
So she was like, let me reachout to them, I'll let you know
(51:19):
what's happening.
You know the budgets arewhatever, whatever, but you know
I'll get back to you, I'm okay.
So Maybe two weeks later I get acall from the head of the, the
of the committee and he says wewe thank you for your time, that
we've decided to not, um, we'vedecided To not Offer any of the
(51:46):
classes that you taught thissemester was a, which is a lie,
because I found out from one ofmy Previous students that they
are teaching jazz history.
Not all of the classes, butstill like y'all lie to my face
and so they're like you'vefulfilled your contract.
Thank you so much foreverything you did.
And it it crushed Rochelle, itcrushed me.
(52:08):
It crushed me so Bad and it'scrazy because I went into it
Like I had this conversationwith HR and I was pissed, almost
like they don't care about me,like they did it.
Like when I talk to him, i'majust tell him like I don't want
it, like I I care.
I, like you all, I don't feelsafe in this environment as a
(52:28):
black woman.
I'ma give it to him like I'mjust not going, and that man
told me we don't even want you.
That's it, blue it just.
It crushed me.
And so I have found out, becausethere was another colleague who
also is a huge advocate for meand he had a lot more seniority
than this previous colleague ina different department but you
(52:51):
know, had a lot of senioritylike really really fucked with
me and I guess he went to someconference with the college and
I found out that one of theircritiques as to why I didn't get
the position was that therewere some like I guess holes or
like inadequacies with myteaching demonstration and that
(53:16):
really, like them not decidingto bring me back was difficult.
But knowing that it was becauseof how I was teaching or how I
was delivering information orMaybe I said something incorrect
or maybe I said a wrong date orwhatever like that Hurt me.
And so now I know that I'm notsupposed to be at that school.
(53:39):
I know that it was for the best, like I deserve to be somewhere
where they are actuallydedicated to black american
music and they actually careabout and they actually want to.
You know, see it Be, seesomething be cultivated as it
relates to black american music.
But it's been really difficultfor me to get back into
(54:07):
researching and Analyze.
And I have all these ideas forlink, I have all these like
topics and all of these things Iwant to discuss and it's like
now I've got a whole arsenal,like I've got more books, like I
have access to all of theseacademic journals, like I could
really Fuck some shit up withthe second season.
(54:28):
But it's because this facultyor this hiring committee of all
white people and one diversity,a person that they brought in
because they told me that I Wasinconsistent with how I taught,
(54:52):
that Shattered me in that it'sjust I don't know.
Like it's just really difficultnow for me To research, like I
just I don't know it is.
It's been super, super hard Toto get back into that bag.
(55:13):
I just I carried so much likepride in that and so much of how
I viewed myself.
I put it into this job of like,oh, she's 28 and she's a
lecturer or she's a whatever, um, so I think that's why it hurt
and I think that's why itaffected me in the way that it
(55:34):
did.
Rochelle (55:35):
I hope jillian returns to link in the chain
podcast her ease at the mic, herability to break down concepts
and connections.
But I get it when theconfidence isn't there it's
really hard it.
Jillian (55:50):
It made me feel super small, like it just and
especially because that was, Iguess, the catalyst to me
getting the position and then,all of a sudden, like that thing
was no longer adequate.
It's just like, well, should Ieven be doing this?
(56:11):
Like, yeah, it, it really tooka hit, it, I took a real hit
with that, I and I miss it.
And I I do have people who youknow, asked me like when is link
coming back?
Or you know what would you beworking on with link?
And it's so crazy because I,I'm finally like in a space,
(56:35):
we're in an apartment where,like I can record freely and
like, if I wanted to like makemy little content, like I could,
like the lighting is great, butit's just like it is.
Uh, it is a stronghold.
It's just like Because I thinkI, I have a lot of like imposter
syndrome too, and so themsaying that was like bitch, you
(56:56):
just got found out, like if theysee that you don't know what
you're talking about.
Rochelle (57:01):
So yeah, I love my friend julian.
She's as aware of hershortcomings as she is of her
wins.
That takes a good amount ofmeasured, balanced perspective
that I wonder if she even givesherself credit for.
When we sat down to record herstories, she was in between jobs
(57:23):
, still singing, though she hadjust moved to a new apartment in
new york and was back in dc tovisit her best friend taylor.
I say all that to say she wasin transition and Maybe she
still is, but now, with a newteaching position shout out to
professor jillian she's makingmusic around the city and maybe
(57:48):
even considering how to bringLink back to the air.
Whatever she chooses, I knowthat she'll soar and I feel
blessed to bear witness.
Jillian (58:02):
I.
You know it's crazy because Ifeel like I am in the process of
having to redefine what successlooks like and I have to
attribute it to my therapist.
I see that lady every Monday,10 o'clock.
We tapped in check it in, butI've talked to her about you
(58:29):
know how I have attributed whatI deem as success and how I've
attributed it to, like thetitles I have or the job that I
have, or you know what I've beenable to do as an artist, or you
know, as a musician, and Ithink, yes, or I know yes, I am
(58:58):
successful.
And I know that because, evenas I'm redefining it and kind of
challenging what I've kind oftaught myself for a really long
time and told myself, I feellike success is defined by your
(59:24):
character and your integrity andhow you show up in the world
and how you show up for peopleand your heart.
And I like to think that Iain't perfect bitch, but I like
to think that I'm a good personand that I mean well and that I
(59:48):
show up and I give my all when Ican, when I have the capacity
to, even sometimes when I don'thave the capacity to.
I think that I am successful.
I know that Jillian, who was whohad an internship in New York
(01:00:17):
in 2017 and wanted so badly topermanently live in New York, I
know she would be so fuckingproud.
I know she would be like bitchyou doing it.
You went to Germany and sangover there on tour.
Like like bitch you, that girllike and again it's easy for me
to like say this because I feellike it's the right thing to say
(01:00:40):
, or it's the you know, the verylike philosophical or like deep
thing to say, because, at theend of the day, like I still am
going to go back to Taylor'shouse tonight and still be like
bitch, what am I doing with mylife?
So it's like I'm trying tolearn how to like live.
(01:01:03):
I guess and gratitude and likemake space for both of those
things to be true that I havedone a lot of great, great
things.
Now I'm going to cry.
I've done a lot of cool things,I've done a lot of great things
, I've lived a very great life,and it's also it doesn't make me
(01:01:27):
greedy or or ungrateful to onemore.
Rochelle (01:01:33):
Deep gratitude to Jillian for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rachelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe arts and humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit by me.
A copy dot com forward slash.
Tell her this For more.
(01:01:55):
Tell Her this content.
Please visittellherthespodcastcom and follow
on social media attellherthespodcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(01:02:17):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Ray Jala, and I'myour host, rachelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rachelle RiceMusic across all social
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell, thank you.
Hello, I'm your host, Rochelle Rice, and this is Tell
Her this, a storytellingpodcast.
No advice, no self-help, juststories from women who represent
people just like me and justlike you.
What began as a journey morethan 6,000 miles around the US
has continued to even moreincredible stories from women
(00:22):
who have opened their lives toall of us.
If you'd like to support TellHer this, please visit
ByMeaCoffeecom.
Forward slash, tell Her this.
For as little as $5, you canhelp ensure that I can keep
bringing you these incrediblestories.
That's ByMeaCoffeecom.
Forward slash, tell Her this.
(00:43):
The link is also in the shownotes.
Please check the show notes andepisode rating if you are so
inclined.
Alright, let's get started.
Jillian (01:01):
This is the Tell Her this podcast.
I am Jillian Willis and I am 28.
Rochelle (01:15):
My friend Jillian is bright, glowy, introspective and
incredibly talented.
As a preacher's kid straightout of the Midwest, she's used
to living in the in-betweenIntuitive artist and studied
academic, christian, midwestgirl and spiritual seeker.
(01:35):
We met through a HowardUniversity connection and both
share alumni status of theaward-winning jazz vocal
ensemble Afro Blue.
Jillian is on a journey, a workin progress, a journey of
learning how to take your lossesand heal and get back up again.
(01:55):
These are her stories.
Jillian (02:00):
I am a daughter, I am a sister, I'm a friend.
I show up as an artist, as astoryteller.
I like to think of myself as astoryteller.
I am the baby of the family.
(02:23):
I have an older sister and wegrew up with my two parents.
My parents are extremelysupportive.
They're very loving.
They did not get it right allthe time Not as any I guess
parent would but just very, verysupportive.
(02:44):
Music and singing was somethingthat was always just a part of
our home.
My dad is a pastor.
He plays the organ and thepiano, but he also sings a lot.
Music was just really big.
He's a huge Clark Sisters fan,so we were always listening to
(03:07):
the Clark Sisters.
That filled our homes.
When that documentary came outnot documentary, but that
Lifetime movie my dad watched itat least eight times.
He wore that Lifetime movie out.
Music was such a big part of ourhome.
I remember, and I still do it.
(03:29):
When I go home, before hespeaks, he'll ask me to sing.
I remember specifically therewas this one time when I was I
had to have been like seven oreight where he, I guess, heard
me sing the song.
He was like you know, jillian,if you sing this song before I
(03:52):
get up and speak.
I'll buy you whatever you want.
I'm like, all right, bet.
So I was like I want a dollSomehow.
He heard dog.
So I get up, I sing the song anda few days passed and we're in
the car and we end up at thiscandle.
I'm like okay, what are wedoing?
He's like you wanted a dog.
(04:12):
I was like no, I said doll andit's funny because we ended up
getting a dog who was alive atleast 19 years.
But I don't know, that has justalways music has just always
been a part of our lives and ithas always been this like
integral thing.
Growing up, we moved around alot, just out of financial, I
(04:39):
guess, woes or you know, keepingup with the Joneses, whatever
you want to call it.
And I will say that our churchbecause my dad like owns that
and you know that was constant,but also music was always
constant.
So I think we just kind ofnaturally like gravitated
(05:01):
towards those two things.
Rochelle (05:05):
As a preacher's kid, a PK, jillian and her sister had
a lot to live up to, but fromthe start, jillian had her heart
set on the stage.
Coming from a musical family,her gifts were certainly
nurtured, and while her parentsdidn't have the resources for
private lessons and workshops,what they did have was their
(05:28):
unwavering support and, best ofall, their physical presence.
Jillian (05:34):
I feel like they definitely nurtured it.
I think there are some thingsthey just you don't know what
you don't know.
So I was never in like pianoclasses growing up or you know I
never like got like voicelessons at the child, but I was
in every choir in high school,like I was in like the show
(05:56):
choir and I was in the acapellaensemble and like my parents
were always there like front andcenter.
So like the resources that theycould give me or the ways they
could show for me, theydefinitely did it to the best of
their ability.
There was a time where this isme in college.
(06:16):
I had a.
I was staying at UTC and my dadFaceTime me and I was getting
ready for this Afro Blues atlike Blues Alley or something,
and my dad FaceTime me.
He was like what you doing?
I'm like I'm just getting readyfor this gig, like what you
doing.
He was like I'm downstairs, I'mlike what are you talking about
?
And this man literally drove intown to come to the concert.
(06:42):
He spent the night the nextmorning he left Like he drove
back home and it's just like I'mnot going to act like again,
like my parents were superperfect or you know that they
had everything figured out Likethere's.
There were definitely like a lotof hardships we had, but, um,
outside of that, like I just Igrew up in a I could literally
(07:06):
decide to be a mime tomorrow andmy parents would be like that,
like do it, like you, you canabsolutely do that and I just I
appreciate that because I know alot of people don't have that.
I was very like spunky and Iwas spoken and just was like in
(07:27):
all these different likemusicals and plays and like
spoke my mind and was verydramatic and like definitely the
firecracker of my family.
My sister is is much more quietand much more reserved and she,
you know, keeps herself and I'mjust the one that's like I'll
give you buck, like let's go.
(07:48):
My sister taught me how todrive.
My sister, you know, like youidolize, like as the baby, like
I just called her yesterday andlike you got any clothes that
you don't want so I could takethem.
But yeah, we are, we are asclose as we can be.
(08:11):
I think my family has kind ofadopted that.
You know what happens in thishouse stays in this house or we
don't really talk about stuff.
We kind of just like sleepunder the rug, and so we've kind
of adopted that within how weinteract with each other.
So we're not close like oh,this is what happened to me
today, and da, da, da, da, da,but like close in regards of
(08:31):
like yeah, like I love you andwe're going to go to the Beyonce
concert together and get drunkand have fun, and yeah.
Rochelle (08:43):
Jillian's family is loving and close knit as the
youngest sibling.
Some experiences, like dealingwith a mental illness, diagnosis
of an immediate family memberor even heading off to college,
were just different.
Jillian (08:59):
For some reason, she was the one that butt heads a
lot with my mom.
When my mom would kind of havelike these alburs, she would be
the one that kind of got thebrunt of it.
And so, being like 10, 15 yearsremoved from that and being
like, do you remember what mommydid X, y and Z, and she'd be
like, yeah, I do.
Or, like you know, memoriesthat you know you push to the
(09:24):
back of your mind Like, oh, Iforgot about that.
Like you know, trauma responseI don't have as much luxury to
be like I live in New York, solike I don't have the luxury to
just be like, yeah, fuck it.
Like whatever I want to do,whereas you know she has my
(09:46):
parents.
And on the flip side of that, Ithink this is also just like
bringing up this kind of I don'tknow like survivor's guilt that
I have for moving Like, oh, I'mabout to cry.
Like my sister, she wanted togo to Columbia, chicago, and I
(10:09):
remember her like talking about,like she's really so, whereas
my dad and I are really intolike the musical arts or like
stuff like that, my mom and mysister were like both like
visual artists, like we wouldcome back home and my mom would
like have rooms like painteddifferent colors.
They're both like very visualartists, very like into like
(10:30):
interior design, like into allof that stuff.
And so my sister, she wanted togo into like hospitality and
wanted to like open hotels.
I'm sure she still wants tolike open hotels and like do all
that stuff.
And I remember her wanting to goto Columbia, chicago, and my
parents are like, no, you needto go to like an in-state school
.
When she ended up going to thein-state school, whereas me, on
(10:52):
the other hand, I'm like girl,I'm not staying.
I'm so sorry and into mydetriment, because my parents,
they knew that going out ofstate was a huge you know feat,
(11:14):
but they didn't know how to likefully articulate it.
So now I'm in all this debtbecause I didn't think in high
school, I wasn't told in highschool, hey, you need to, you
know, do X, y and Z, you need toapply for scholarships.
So, but I say all that to saylike I do wish that she was
afforded the liberty to justlike go, move to another.
(11:35):
And she, I mean she still can.
But you know, you get older,you like create roots in a place
and I'm not.
I also don't want to make itseem like she just hasn't done
anything, like my sister wasjust in Paris Like she lives her
life, like she went to NewOrleans see Beyonce, like she
lives life.
But I do wonder what it wouldbe like if she didn't, you know,
(11:56):
have to take the brunt, I guess, of my mom's like frustrations
and you know all of that, andwas able to just like fully,
like exist and be and go toColumbia and they have all these
new experiences, jillian grewup in the Christian church, a
daughter of a preacher.
Rochelle (12:17):
That, and for those who know that, comes with a
whole set of culture andexpectations about what one's
spirituality and faith shouldlook like.
But for Jillian, especially inthe past few years, her faith
has expanded, as she activelyseeks practices that nourish her
(12:37):
spirit.
I asked her how she came tothis journey.
Jillian (12:42):
Definitely an unraveling.
I think I'm a very dramaticperson, so it couldn't have been
anything but an unraveling.
So 2020 came and this whole,like I would say, 2015, 2016, I
had, you know, kind of came intoa relationship with God.
Like you know, you grow up inchurch and it's like these are
(13:04):
the ritualistic things that youdo.
But, like 2015, 2016, I waslike okay, like let me you know
pray for myself, like let me youknow figure things out.
But it wasn't until like 2018where I started getting into
like the more supernatural stuff, so like prophecy and speaking
(13:25):
in tongues and words ofknowledge and all that stuff.
And so 2020 came and I wassinging at this church, or I was
attending this church inBaltimore.
The pastor of the church atthis point I had just got
accepted into MSM, msm.
Rochelle (13:44):
Manhattan School of Music, one of the world's
premier music conservatories,and where Jillian attended grad
school.
Jillian (13:54):
I was about to leave in a few weeks and they gave me a
pretty like hefty scholarship,but I still like had money that
I needed to, like you know, beresponsible for, which is so
different concern, likeconsidering that, howard, I got
nothing.
I didn't get anything until Igot to Afro Blue.
And so I was in church oneSunday and the pastor, she just
(14:19):
starts like prophesying and shewas like I see that there's some
funds and some grants in yourfuture, because there's still
money that you're in need of.
And God is saying I'm going tofund this.
And da, da, da, da.
And I'm like on the floor I'mcrying and all that I'm doing
the whole thing.
And so I was like, okay, bet,like I'm not doing anything.
(14:39):
So I moved to New York and MSMFinancial Aid is messaging me
like, hey, girl, you still owethis amount of money.
And I'm like, well, I'm notapplying for Financial Aid
because God told me that, likeJesus said, that I wasn't going
to have to pay for this.
So where the grants at?
But like, by that point,because I, because I applied for
(15:00):
the program late, because I gotaccepted late, I missed a lot
of the deadlines forscholarships and for grants and
all that stuff.
So I think that was thebeginning of it, where it was
just like, okay, no, you reallyhave to apply for financial aid
Because the grant hasn't.
(15:20):
The grant is not here in theroom with us.
Babes, you gotta.
If you want to stay, you gotta.
And so I think that was thebeginning of just been like huh,
like these words or theseprophecies that I'm holding so
near and dear to my heart,they're not panning out the way
(15:41):
that I envision them panning out, and I think I think between
that and then just living in NewYork in general just did a lot
of unraveling of me, just beingthis person.
And again, like I stillidentify, like as a Christian,
(16:06):
like I still, you know, believeJesus died for our sins, but I
think I'm in a place now where Ijust don't believe that, you
know, I think whatever works forpeople, like if that serves
(16:27):
them and if that gives them asense of safety and security,
like I believe that, like Idon't, I don't think there's
just one way, I don't thinkthere's one way to peace into
eternity and all that stuff.
New York is just, it forces youto do that because you're not in
(16:47):
a bubble.
There's so many differentpeople, there's so many
different experiences that youcome in touch with.
Like I just dated a Muslim I2018, jillian would never like
the whole scripture about beingequally, unequally young.
Just like girl, what did you doit?
But yeah, I just.
I think I just am expandingthis very small idea that I had
(17:18):
of God, or this small like, yeah, this small vision that I had
of God, but also like churchheart and like also like
disappointment.
So it was like these two thingsworking in tandem that like
kind of put me in this place ofjust being like yeah, I'm not
that person anymore.
I used to be like a very big, uh, super Christian.
(17:42):
I still like I'm still aChristian, but like I used to be
like wake up five am in themorning speaking in tongues.
You know, I went like literally, I spent a birthday the week
before a lockdown.
I spent my 25th birthday atlike a church convention.
Just like girl, why?
But I say I'd say like I'm notthat person anymore, but I've
(18:06):
been like finding myself like inangel numbers and I feel like,
oh, jillian would be likeJillian, that's so demonic.
I feel like my angel number is222 and 222 is like, uh, like
divine alignment and, like youknow, balance, and you know
you're exactly where you'resupposed to be, and so, like I
see that a lot it's just likeokay, like things are not
(18:27):
perfect, things are far fromideal.
I ain't got no job, but I justI don't know Like.
I just I feel like I'm whereI'm supposed to be, even though
a lot of it doesn't make anysense.
I had posted like a video of mesinging it as well and I like
made this very because I'mdramatic.
(18:48):
I made this like very dramaticcaption, like oh, I feel like
Job's wife more than I feel likeJob.
I just want to curse God anddie.
And you had said the.
You said like the blessing orthe gift is in the journey, and
like that just resonates.
I mean it's hard to resonatewith, but or it's hard for me to
(19:08):
like fully have resolve in it,but it's.
It's like yeah, like I amallowing myself to just expand,
I don't know, or to allow myview to be more like malleable
than what it's it's ever been.
Rochelle (19:33):
I love and know God, as I believe Jillian does too.
But I would be a liar if Ididn't say that I have been
confounded in my own explorationand rooting of my faith, and
nothing can be more perplexingthan when trying to hear from
God on a matter of the heart.
Jillian (19:52):
Funny funny enough, it was the same denomination but a
different pastor.
So in the thick of lockdownthis had to have been May 2020,
there was this prophet thatwould do these lives, these IG
lives, and he would get on andhe would give, I guess, words of
(20:14):
knowledge.
So these very specific detailsthat applied to whoever was
watching.
So he's going through his wordsof knowledge.
He was like Howard University,like Howard University, and I
like looked down and I'm like,wear my Howard shirt.
I'm like, oh, he's talkingabout me.
So I like type in the chat.
I'm like, yeah, I went toHoward University.
(20:36):
And he brings me on and hestarts prophesying and, you know
, started prophesying about whatI now think was my move to New
York.
But one of the things that hesaid was by this time next year,
there'll be a connection thatyou'll have with the person that
(20:59):
I I being God made for you outof the dirt.
And I'm like, oh, so that's myman.
Like okay, so fast forward toMay 2021.
I moved to New York.
I was finishing up my firstyear at MSM.
This guy asked me on Instagramand we're talking and the dates
(21:24):
from the date from when I gotthe prophecy to like when he
initially like reached out to me, was like maybe a few days
apart, and I'm like, oh, this ismy man, Like this is the one.
And so we started talking.
He lived across the country.
(21:46):
I did not know this person.
I had saw him three timesbefore we became officially a
couple.
So October he came to New Yorkbecause he was looking at grad
schools and that was our firsttime meeting a person.
We went to a show together andI was like I don't know, but
(22:06):
like I was still like whatever.
And so the second time we saweach other, kayla and I went.
We went to a festival in Vegasand he came and I like kind of
ended up making Kayla a thirdwheel.
Kayla was pissed.
Kayla was like bitch, don'tever do this again.
(22:27):
Like you out of your fuckingmind.
I just moved.
I could be at home if I knewyou was going to be booed up
with this man you met on theinternet.
Rochelle (22:35):
She's talking about Kayla, who you may remember from
episode four of season one.
Jillian (22:41):
We had a good time, but it was.
It was a little rough.
And then I saw him in Januaryin Houston and so that's when we
made it official and again likejust leaning on this word of
just like, oh, this is yourperson, like, oh, this is who
you're supposed to be with.
And so we were in a longdistance relationship.
(23:02):
He was applying for gradschools, looking at different
grad schools, and he hadmentioned that where I went to,
grad school, was like his topchoice.
So I was like, oh, this isperfect.
Like not only are you myhusband, but like the school
that I went to you're alsolooking at going to.
And I think, in the back of mymind, I think I, you know, even
(23:22):
if it wasn't his top choice, I,you know, wanted him to be there
.
Because, again, I'm likehanging on to this word that
this is my person.
So he ends up moving to NewYork and he is not who I thought
he was, and not in a bad way ornot in a like, oh, he's abusive
(23:49):
or you know he's not, you knowhe's condescending.
It wasn't any of that, one ofthe kindest and most gentle
people I've encountered in mylife.
But I, I don't know.
I just, and I, I kept waitingfor like this, like switch to
(24:13):
happen and be like, oh, this isit.
Like, oh, this is my person.
Like, oh, like, why aren't youaligning?
But I, it never happened.
And I think I had a conversationwith one of my homegirls and I
was like I don't know if Iactually like him or if I just
(24:34):
like being in a relationship andif I like you know, look, god
answered my prayer.
Like I'm with my person, I justdidn't click.
And so I was in my bestfriend's wedding.
(24:57):
He got married and at thebachelorette party they had like
a select the bachelor.
I was in the bridal party, onthe bride side, so the
bachelorettes had their separateparty, the grooms had their
like separate party, and thenthey came together.
I got very drunk and I made outwith the best man, so bad.
(25:18):
And I went home and in mind you, this is like.
After I had been talking withhim, I like voiced my concerns
and like voiced like, oh, I'mnot happy, like is there
anything we can do?
And so he was aware that Iwasn't happy and I this is not
just justification of me likekissing this other person.
(25:40):
But yeah, I got back home and Itold him what happened and he
was not happy and we decided totake a break.
And the break was supposed tolike somehow give us space to
work on ourselves, to come backtogether.
But I and I feel terrible aboutit.
(26:06):
But, like, I just decided like Idon't, I don't want this
anymore, like, so we broke upand he, he began to spiral like
mentally, and it's not evenuntil like recently that I've
kind of like allowed myself tolet that go.
(26:30):
I felt, or I, yeah, felt, Idon't feel that way anymore.
Like I've definitely felt likeresponsible for him being in
that space and him not beingwell.
Yeah, and I, I'm better now.
I mean, obviously, I'm not somecrying, yeah, it was just
(26:52):
really, it was really difficultwith me and there's a part of me
because I've, you know, sincedated and since met people, but
there's a part of me that's justlike, bitch, you gonna pay for
this.
You are in karma, you are in acycle of karma until you learn
(27:14):
your lesson, until because ofwhat you did to this person, and
I'm in therapy.
So, like I know that to not betrue, but yeah, I just, and it's
it feels, I don't know, a partof me feels very, very, very
like, I guess, justirresponsible, because I I
(27:43):
brought him here.
I mean, I didn't bring him here, but like he literally gave up
everything he knew, he sold hiscar like, made all these plans
and, you know, moved across thecountry for me and I just
decided I was done, I'm betternow, but like I just there's a
(28:07):
lot of like, there was a lot oflike guilt that I was harboring
for feeling responsible for,kind of like, the unraveling of
this person.
Rochelle (28:22):
The episode isn't over yet, but I want to take a
minute to say tell her thisneeds your support.
This is a self-funded project,but for less than a cup of
coffee you can keep this laborof love going.
Click the link in the shownotes to buy me a coffee, or
head over to buy me a coffee.
Dot com forward, slash, tellher this and donate what you can
(28:44):
.
All right, let's get back tothe show.
Jillian attended HowardUniversity for her undergraduate
degree in jazz studies.
Unfortunately, at a certainpoint she could no longer pay
for school and had to take asemester off.
She was devastated, to say theleast, and then the unthinkable
(29:06):
happened.
Jillian (29:08):
I took, I didn't take time off of school.
It was I had to take time offof school because I had a this
like ridiculous back balanceBecause, again, I didn't know
anything about financial aid orscholarships or none of that.
I just literally came to Howardon vibes and so, eventually,
like I had like it had to havebeen like $15,000 that I owed to
(29:32):
school and I was like they'relike girl, okay, this is cute,
but you got to leave and I wasgone for a semester, so it was
spring semester, and I wasliterally only able to come back
that fall because of my mom,because my mom was like, okay,
we're going to do X, y and Z,like we're going to save this
amount of money.
(29:53):
We're going to like like she,she is in a lot of ways like the
quintessential.
You know I, I'm the oil thatkeeps this machine running and
like and I just appreciate herand I and I love her and I feel
like I don't say that enough.
(30:15):
That was just like a really likenot great time in my life, like
a really like dark time.
I felt like such a failure forhaving to go back home.
I felt like why didn't you, youknow, have the knowledge to
apply for scholarships.
Like, why didn't you try harderin high school?
Like, why did you do this, whydid you do that?
And so it felt like damn, likeI got to go back home, like this
(30:40):
is this sucks.
And so obviously my mom was abig, like a very instrumental
part in me coming back to Howard.
But yeah that.
So I went home.
(31:00):
I was not in a great headspace,I was not very happy that I had
to come back home and I washanging out with this guy that I
knew from high school, that Ialways kind of knew was like
attracted to me, like we wouldflirt here and there, but like
(31:20):
it wasn't anything like superdeep, and we were at his house
one day and he he sexuallyassaulted me.
I remember having to go, so itwas like a pretrial basically.
So you like, because at first Ididn't even want to press
(31:40):
charges.
I was like this happened, likeit is what it is.
But I ended up like talking toa lot of my girlfriends or like
confining in some of mygirlfriends and they're like no
girl, we've heard him do this toother people.
Like you need to like dosomething.
And so I ended up pressing thecharges, whatever, or attempting
to press charges, and so theyhave you do this like pretrial
(32:01):
and I went into like this roomwith this Jerry and you
basically sit down and you gothrough like what happened and
this like line of questioninghappens and you know, someone
read the definition of rape tome and was like are you sure?
(32:22):
And it, it was, it was, it wasdifficult and it was I left
feeling so shitty and it didn'tgo anywhere, like they dropped
the charges or they dropped thecase.
I mean, I guess, the courage tonot allow that to define me or
(32:45):
not allow.
And we've talked about like howI'm really big into titles or
like how titles have like kindof steered my life and you know,
steered a lot of how I look atmyself.
And so I think me choosing togo back to school, me choosing
(33:08):
to, you know, continue on withlife, was just like yeah, no,
this happened, this was shitty,like this was not ideal.
But we hear we don't keep itpushing.
Rochelle (33:22):
Jillian has a beautiful vocal sound and
artistry.
Her music is spiritual anddraws from the rich well of
music and culture that has beena part of her life.
Along her way the church,soulfulness, jazz and hip hop In
2021, she began an analysis ofthe influences of hip hop on
(33:47):
culture and the elements ofblack American music and culture
that influenced hip hop.
This marked a pivot towardsJillian's new path and honoring
of her love of jazz and hip hopas culture and academic
intersection, and with that Linkin the Chain podcast was born.
Jillian (34:11):
I started a podcast in July 2021.
And I began this podcastbecause I just love hip hop.
When I talked earlier about thething that remained constant in
(34:33):
like my family and I likemoving around, like it being
like the church and like itbeing music.
The first time we moved it wasthe summer before seventh grade,
some summer around there and sowe lost our house that we were
living in, and so my parentsshipped my sister and I down to
(34:55):
Fort Worth to stay with mygrandmother.
We were there for like threeweeks and it was during that
time I had an iPod and my sisterlike put all her music on the
iPod.
So she put like TI versus TIPand like late registration.
I'm like what is this?
(35:15):
But it just, I don't know.
It did something for me, and sowhen I got back home, we were
like living in this home thatone of the people from our
church like rented to us likethey own the house and they
rented it out to us.
And when I got back home, Ijust like discovered outcast and
(35:37):
I would, you know, call myselfMrs Andre Lauren Benjamin.
Like I was very, just, likelike fully immersed in hip hop,
and so that became a constantand I didn't.
I would never call myself arapper, I'm not a rapper but I
just found myself just almostlike entranced in it and wanting
(36:03):
to know more about it andwanting to know, like a lot of
the wise.
I had a boyfriend in highschool and I'll never forget
this.
It was election night, 2012.
And we were sitting in aparking lot in Best Buy and we
(36:25):
were listening to Sing About MeI'm Dinah Thers by Kendrick and
he went through and he brokedown everything and he was like,
oh, this is why they faded itout right here, because
so-and-so and and you know, thisis connected to this song.
And I actually talked to themon my podcast and I was like wow
, that's dope as hell, like thatis so cool that you were able
(36:47):
to find all of that like within,like this four minute song, and
that kind of always stuck withme.
And so I've always just beenattracted to like analysis and
you know, didn't know it at thetime, didn't know that it was
like analysis and research andall that stuff, but it just was
(37:08):
very cool to like breaksomething down.
The pandemic hit and I like Ithink a lot of people were just
trying to figure out.
Okay, what is going on?
Like, what can I do?
How can I keep myself busy?
And I was like you know what?
I'm gonna start a blog.
Like I'm starting a blog andit's gonna be about all of the
(37:32):
stuff that I find and I'm justgonna write it and that's it.
I'm just gonna post on my blogand it's gonna be about hip hop
and all the stuff.
And then I learned that I'm nota good writer, I'm a terrible
writer, or like I just I don'tknow.
Like I feel like writers havelike an ebb and a flow, and you
know they can, and I just itwasn't mean.
(37:53):
And so I was talking to one ofmy friends is like well, why
don't you start a podcast?
I'm like, oh, that's sosaturated, like if I got a
podcast.
But I was like, no, like maybeI will, like I'll start this
podcast.
And so I started the podcast.
And this is like a year after,because I started I decided to
have a blog in 2020.
And then I kind of left it alone.
And then 2021, I was like, huh,maybe I'll start a podcast.
(38:15):
So started this podcast and itwas great.
I did my little research and,mind you, like I had no, it was
just vibes Like I would go, Iwouldn't try not to use
Wikipedia, but like I would, youknow, watch documentaries and I
(38:36):
would read books and I would,you know, just find all of these
you know connections, or try tomake all these connections.
Rochelle (38:44):
Link in the chain podcast is excellent.
It's smart and interesting andif you're into hip hop or even
if you just want to nerd out onbeautiful analysis of poetry and
culture, I highly recommendthat you go and take a listen.
Jillian (39:00):
Hey y'all, you're listening to Link in the chain,
a bi-weekly podcast that aims toreveal the depth and vastness
of hip hop, one episode at atime.
We take our favoritemethodologies, albums, artists
and songs and strip them to thecore, figuring out what exactly
makes them so magnetic.
I'm your host, jaleen Grace.
Let's get started.
Rochelle (39:22):
Link in the chain is on hiatus because y'all
independent podcasting is nojoke.
Major podcasts have a team ofeditors, fact checkers,
producers, engineers, sounddesigners, but when you are
doing it all by yourself, whenyou are inhabiting all of those
roles, it's like a wholeseparate business.
(39:45):
If you're an entrepreneur orindependent business owner,
shoot if you run a household.
I know, you know.
Jillian (39:53):
I was doing it in the school year and just being in
grad school and living in NewYork, all of the shit that comes
with that I just got tired andI was like I can't do this, and
so I tried to do a smallerversion of it where I would talk
about things that werehappening in the culture.
(40:18):
But that felt very shade, roomyand I didn't want to do that
either.
I don't want to talk aboutgossip or talk as if it's a
gossip.
Look, I just want to talk aboutthings that I like.
So I stopped.
Rochelle (40:31):
Gillian's work with Link in the chain podcast set
her up for an opportunity thatwould boost her work and
validate this mostly untappedarea of study.
And for Gillian, a newprofessional heading out into
the world of academia wouldultimately lead to a massive
knock to her professional andartistic confidence 2022 rolls
(40:56):
around.
Jillian (40:56):
I graduated, was trying to figure out what I was going
to do, like where I was going towork, and so this school
reached out to me.
They were like yeah, we spoketo the head of your department,
we have a vacancy to teach, andthey recommended you and you
could teach whatever you want.
(41:18):
You can.
Actually, I've actually heardyour podcast when I looked you
up and I taught a history of hiphop class as a summer class, so
if you wanted to take that overand teach it during the school
year, you could do that and youcould teach a history class or a
history of jazz class.
(41:39):
And so I was like OK, bet, likeI knew nothing about it, and he
looked out for me.
I will say that, like thatwhite man, definitely, I
probably shouldn't say that, butthat white man definitely
looked out for me and he sent mehis CV and was like OK, make a
CV that looks like this, or putall the information, because I
(42:02):
sent him this fucking resume Imade on cam, but it was all
colorful.
He's like OK, that's cute, butactually like doing like this,
I'm OK with that.
And so I get a job.
And they're like oh, we wantyou to build this like jazz
program.
Like we have students on campus, they have all these clubs
where they have these ensemblesand there's a love for jazz here
(42:27):
, but we just want to cultivateit.
So we want to have like anacademic ensemble and we want to
have these classes on BlackAmerican music.
They gave me this huge task andI'm not even going to hold you.
I did that shit.
Like, looking back, I gave myall to that job.
(42:49):
It was two and a half hours oneway I was commuting, two and a
half hours one way I wasstudying.
I was, you know, they hired melike two weeks before the school
year started, so I wasbasically teaching someone
else's curriculum, but I wasstudying that curriculum.
I was doing everything I can, Iwas showing up for the job.
They wanted to.
They had like an annual holidayconcert for the president each
(43:14):
year and so they had just got anew president and so they want
to throw this big fancy concertand, like you know, highlight
them having this new president,but also highlight this academic
jazz ensemble that was newlyformed.
And those folks, those lovelypeople, they did not help me
(43:37):
with anything.
I had to find my own musicians.
They paid for the musicians,that's it.
I got them hotel rooms.
I had to rent a van totransport all of them from New
York upstate.
I fed them.
Like I and my kids sound good,like my.
(44:01):
Like I had two ensembles, likeI had an instrumental ensemble
and I had a vocalist ensembleand they both sound like they
were just so good.
And I mean outside of that,like I wasn't.
I'm not going to act, like I amjust this, you know academic
and this scholar who, like, hasall the right words and uses
(44:22):
fancy words in my lectures andall that shit.
Like I spoke to my studentslike how I'm talking now, but I
resonated with my kids.
Like I had my little history hiphop class and I had my little
jazz history class and we hadreal conversations and I felt
like I was building somethingwith these kids, with all of
(44:46):
these kids I was coming andcounter with.
Like I was the only black womanin my department, no-transcript
, so that was isolating.
But like I also felt like itgave me an in and I have
Incredible rapport with my.
I literally saw these blackkids.
(45:09):
I was leaving campus one day Iwas like leaving my office and
it was a group of black kids.
I was like, hey, like I'mprofessor Willis, like you know
nice to meet you.
I teach a class like y'allshould sign up for it.
They literally signed up for myclass that semester, like I
knew, and I saw it in my courseevaluations.
I saw it in just how theygravitated towards me, like they
(45:30):
would come to my office andjust talk to me, like I Knew I
made an impact.
Rochelle (45:36):
Jillian was passionate about her work,
putting in the time and effortto really build a program that
nourished the artistry of youngmusicians, especially young
black musicians, in aninstitution where they didn't
really see themselves or theirmusic culture.
Jillian's contract was for ninemonths and she realized that
(45:57):
she really wanted to continuethe work that she'd begun the
semester Ends.
Jillian (46:03):
We had just had this concert.
It was incredible.
And I go to the person thatreached out to me and I was like
, hey, if I wanted to continuehere, what would that look like?
Like?
How could I?
Because my I was on a contractout of nine month contract and
so he was like, well, we havethis job position opening, which
was I should have known I theysent me up for failure so bad.
(46:26):
The title of the position waslike Lecturer in Afro diasporic
music and culture.
It's like what the fuck does?
That could literally beBrazilian music, that could be
jazz, that could.
What the fuck are you lookingfor?
And because it was like atechnical school, they really
(46:48):
put an emphasis on Like how manydegrees you had.
So like, even when it came tome hiring my musicians for the
concert, they based how muchmoney they pay them on how many
degrees they had.
Fucked up, terrible.
But he tells me we have thisposition opening.
If you want to stay, apply forthe position.
Okay, in the job descriptionthey Wanted or they know that
(47:12):
they wanted some of a PhD.
I'm like my own PhD.
I barely got a man.
Oh, I'm not gonna say I barelygot a masters but I have a PhD.
But they were like still apply.
Worst case scenario we findsomebody who, because it's afro
diasporic, it can literally bein type of music within the
diaspora.
We could have somebody elsethat's not in your wheelhouse.
(47:34):
Your job goes unscathed.
You're cool.
I'm like okay, bet, so I applyfor the position.
I Go through the whole thing.
There was this day long I hadlike this All these activities
are like all these interviewsthat I had to do and I had to
(47:55):
give this lecture on like myartistic research and and
basically like just what I wastalking about and you know why
they should hire me again.
But then I also had to teachlike this mock class and I could
invite my students to commentit in, but the faculty they're
the hiring committee was inthere as well.
(48:16):
This day long Think of justEvents and you know jumping from
through hoops and you knowgoing on tours of the campus,
even though I done been therefor a whole semester.
Like having me jump through allthese hoops, semester ends and
my the, the colleague that waskind of helping me, he, he, I
(48:41):
will I'm removed enough from itnow to acknowledge like he
definitely was looking out forme.
You know, he definitely had myback, like I will absolutely say
that, but he just had a newbornand so he wasn't, as I guess,
involved as he could have been.
But, you know, was kind ofnudging me, helping me along the
way.
So I had a conversation withhim.
He was like yeah, don't worryabout it.
(49:02):
Like it may take a couple ofweeks for them to get back to
you, but You're fine, like I'mpretty sure you're fine, I'm
okay.
But so Memorial Day comes, Istill hadn't heard anything.
The school year ended, had tobeen like end of April, may,
hadn't heard anything.
I'm okay, this is weird, likewhat's going on?
So I Reach out to the woman whowas kind of facilitating her,
(49:29):
like Setting up my interview andsetting up all that stuff, like
an administrative shit, sometype of administrative position,
and I was like hey, just wantedto follow up on, you know, the
decision that they made orthey've come to the conclusion.
Like what's going on?
She doesn't respond to me, hrresponds to me and they're in.
(49:52):
The lady was super sweet.
She was like at this time, youknow, the the search committee
has decided to close theapplication.
Like we thank you for your time, but you decided to close
application.
If you have any questions, youcan reach me at this number.
So I call her.
I'm like yeah, so what?
What's going on?
And she was like, yeah, theyjust decided.
(50:12):
Now, they didn't necessarilyfind what they were looking for,
so they decided to close theapplication.
I was like, okay, I understand,like that's fine.
Again, didn't go into thisthinking that I will actually
get the position because I don'thave a PhD.
Like I've been working withy'all all year.
I know how pressed y'all are tohave these pieces of paper and
it's crazy because I'm I'm notgoing to my own horn, but like,
(50:36):
if we're talking about it's likeexperience.
If we're talking about likein-field experience, I'm better
than all y'all.
Like the degrees, like I havemore experience with this music
Period, like out of all of y'all.
So the fact that you're Holdingme back because I don't have
this, whatever, whatever.
(50:57):
So I was, I was talking and Iwas, okay, that's fine, but like
I guess I'm wondering you knowwhat that means for my position?
And she was like oh my god, I'mso sorry.
I am just now realizing who youare, bitch.
I didn't even know that I wasworking at work in HR.
I didn't even know that I wasworking at the school.
So she was like, let me reachout to them, I'll let you know
(51:19):
what's happening.
You know the budgets arewhatever, whatever, but you know
I'll get back to you, I'm okay.
So Maybe two weeks later I get acall from the head of the, the
of the committee and he says wewe thank you for your time, that
we've decided to not, um, we'vedecided To not Offer any of the
(51:46):
classes that you taught thissemester was a, which is a lie,
because I found out from one ofmy Previous students that they
are teaching jazz history.
Not all of the classes, butstill like y'all lie to my face
and so they're like you'vefulfilled your contract.
Thank you so much foreverything you did.
And it it crushed Rochelle, itcrushed me.
(52:08):
It crushed me so Bad and it'scrazy because I went into it
Like I had this conversationwith HR and I was pissed, almost
like they don't care about me,like they did it.
Like when I talk to him, i'majust tell him like I don't want
it, like I I care.
I, like you all, I don't feelsafe in this environment as a
(52:28):
black woman.
I'ma give it to him like I'mjust not going, and that man
told me we don't even want you.
That's it, blue it just.
It crushed me.
And so I have found out, becausethere was another colleague who
also is a huge advocate for meand he had a lot more seniority
than this previous colleague ina different department but you
(52:51):
know, had a lot of senioritylike really really fucked with
me and I guess he went to someconference with the college and
I found out that one of theircritiques as to why I didn't get
the position was that therewere some like I guess holes or
like inadequacies with myteaching demonstration and that
(53:16):
really, like them not decidingto bring me back was difficult.
But knowing that it was becauseof how I was teaching or how I
was delivering information orMaybe I said something incorrect
or maybe I said a wrong date orwhatever like that Hurt me.
And so now I know that I'm notsupposed to be at that school.
(53:39):
I know that it was for the best, like I deserve to be somewhere
where they are actuallydedicated to black american
music and they actually careabout and they actually want to.
You know, see it Be, seesomething be cultivated as it
relates to black american music.
But it's been really difficultfor me to get back into
(54:07):
researching and Analyze.
And I have all these ideas forlink, I have all these like
topics and all of these things Iwant to discuss and it's like
now I've got a whole arsenal,like I've got more books, like I
have access to all of theseacademic journals, like I could
really Fuck some shit up withthe second season.
(54:28):
But it's because this facultyor this hiring committee of all
white people and one diversity,a person that they brought in
because they told me that I Wasinconsistent with how I taught,
(54:52):
that Shattered me in that it'sjust I don't know.
Like it's just really difficultnow for me To research, like I
just I don't know it is.
It's been super, super hard Toto get back into that bag.
(55:13):
I just I carried so much likepride in that and so much of how
I viewed myself.
I put it into this job of like,oh, she's 28 and she's a
lecturer or she's a whatever, um, so I think that's why it hurt
and I think that's why itaffected me in the way that it
(55:34):
did.
Rochelle (55:35):
I hope jillian returns to link in the chain
podcast her ease at the mic, herability to break down concepts
and connections.
But I get it when theconfidence isn't there it's
really hard it.
Jillian (55:50):
It made me feel super small, like it just and
especially because that was, Iguess, the catalyst to me
getting the position and then,all of a sudden, like that thing
was no longer adequate.
It's just like, well, should Ieven be doing this?
(56:11):
Like, yeah, it, it really tooka hit, it, I took a real hit
with that, I and I miss it.
And I I do have people who youknow, asked me like when is link
coming back?
Or you know what would you beworking on with link?
And it's so crazy because I,I'm finally like in a space,
(56:35):
we're in an apartment where,like I can record freely and
like, if I wanted to like makemy little content, like I could,
like the lighting is great, butit's just like it is.
Uh, it is a stronghold.
It's just like Because I thinkI, I have a lot of like imposter
syndrome too, and so themsaying that was like bitch, you
(56:56):
just got found out, like if theysee that you don't know what
you're talking about.
Rochelle (57:01):
So yeah, I love my friend julian.
She's as aware of hershortcomings as she is of her
wins.
That takes a good amount ofmeasured, balanced perspective
that I wonder if she even givesherself credit for.
When we sat down to record herstories, she was in between jobs
(57:23):
, still singing, though she hadjust moved to a new apartment in
new york and was back in dc tovisit her best friend taylor.
I say all that to say she wasin transition and Maybe she
still is, but now, with a newteaching position shout out to
professor jillian she's makingmusic around the city and maybe
(57:48):
even considering how to bringLink back to the air.
Whatever she chooses, I knowthat she'll soar and I feel
blessed to bear witness.
Jillian (58:02):
I.
You know it's crazy because Ifeel like I am in the process of
having to redefine what successlooks like and I have to
attribute it to my therapist.
I see that lady every Monday,10 o'clock.
We tapped in check it in, butI've talked to her about you
(58:29):
know how I have attributed whatI deem as success and how I've
attributed it to, like thetitles I have or the job that I
have, or you know what I've beenable to do as an artist, or you
know, as a musician, and Ithink, yes, or I know yes, I am
(58:58):
successful.
And I know that because, evenas I'm redefining it and kind of
challenging what I've kind oftaught myself for a really long
time and told myself, I feellike success is defined by your
(59:24):
character and your integrity andhow you show up in the world
and how you show up for peopleand your heart.
And I like to think that Iain't perfect bitch, but I like
to think that I'm a good personand that I mean well and that I
(59:48):
show up and I give my all when Ican, when I have the capacity
to, even sometimes when I don'thave the capacity to.
I think that I am successful.
I know that Jillian, who was whohad an internship in New York
(01:00:17):
in 2017 and wanted so badly topermanently live in New York, I
know she would be so fuckingproud.
I know she would be like bitchyou doing it.
You went to Germany and sangover there on tour.
Like like bitch you, that girllike and again it's easy for me
to like say this because I feellike it's the right thing to say
(01:00:40):
, or it's the you know, the verylike philosophical or like deep
thing to say, because, at theend of the day, like I still am
going to go back to Taylor'shouse tonight and still be like
bitch, what am I doing with mylife?
So it's like I'm trying tolearn how to like live.
(01:01:03):
I guess and gratitude and likemake space for both of those
things to be true that I havedone a lot of great, great
things.
Now I'm going to cry.
I've done a lot of cool things,I've done a lot of great things
, I've lived a very great life,and it's also it doesn't make me
(01:01:27):
greedy or or ungrateful to onemore.
Rochelle (01:01:33):
Deep gratitude to Jillian for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rachelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe arts and humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit by me.
A copy dot com forward slash.
Tell her this For more.
(01:01:55):
Tell Her this content.
Please visittellherthespodcastcom and follow
on social media attellherthespodcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(01:02:17):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Ray Jala, and I'myour host, rachelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rachelle RiceMusic across all social
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell, thank you.
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