December 13, 2023 • 52 mins
Jalisa was a high-achieving, goal-driven leader in the nonprofit philanthropy sector. Still, after a season of deep familial loss, professional challenges, and more than a decade in the field, she had a decision to make: lose herself to the cause or learn how to get free.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to Tell Her this podcast, a storytelling
podcast from women.
No advice, no self-help, justperspective and stories.
I'm your host, rachelle Rice,and I love that I can share
these stories across platformsand at no cost to you, the
listener.
But let's be clear podcastingtakes money and a lot of time.
(00:25):
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For as little as $5, you canhelp ensure that I can keep
bringing you these incrediblestories.
That's buymeacoffeecom forwardslash.
Tell her this.
The link is also in the shownotes.
(00:46):
Alright, let's get started.
Restless wonder.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is the Tell Her this podcast.
Why won't you unfold?
My name is Jalisa Whitley and Iam 33 years old.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
My friend Jalisa is driven and intentional.
She's the kind of woman youwant to know and then want to be
friends with a true lover ofbooks, an intellectual and
someone with a clear sense ofself.
Jalisa is a seeker, a maker anda dreamer and a doer, a lover
(01:33):
of travel.
In fact, if you've beenlistening to Tell Her this for a
while, you'll recognize thatshe is the founder of Booked
Trips, a curated travelexperience for women who love
books.
More on that later.
Jalisa, like mosthigh-achieving women I know, is
a bounty of a person, and when Isat down to hear her stories I
(01:57):
learned that the beautiful lifeshe has created came at a cost
and in learning how to walk away, learning how to get free.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's hard to say who I am now because I feel like I'm
in process.
So I'm a woman who's practicingbeing free in the world.
I am beginning to think ofmyself as a creative, not in the
sense of an artist, but a senseof how I move in the world.
So I'm a person who's alwaysopen to inspiration and to being
(02:30):
in all of the world.
So I think I'm a person who'sworking on presence when I think
about myself and a person who'spracticing joy.
So not joy just in like the bigthings, but also just joy in
being satisfiable.
So I've been thinking a lotabout Aja.
Marie Brown talks aboutsatisfiability in the context of
her work around pleasure,activism, and so what does it
(02:52):
mean to like have enough?
And so I'm a person who'sreally practicing enoughness,
like what's enough of food,what's enough of travel, what's
enough in belongings, what'senough in terms of like friends,
so just being reallysatisfiable in the moment.
So I'm a person who's workingon satisfiability and presence
(03:15):
in being in community.
Community part is reallyimportant and hard for me right
now.
It's like how do I show up well, even when I'm not showing up
perfect?
So that's the perfectionismpiece in me.
I want to be the best friendthat's always responding to
(03:36):
texts like fully in in themoment and it's just hard at
this stage in my life.
So how do I bring my imperfectself and have and let that
offering be enough?
I'm from upstate New York,geneva, new York and so I in my
adulthood have gotten lessinvolved in my family.
(03:59):
But I want to show updifferently.
I think it's going down for thefourth of July, going down for
Thanksgiving, just checking inwith my mom.
More so she's getting older.
So she's in her late sixtiesand thinking about what it looks
like to be a single woman atthat age.
So her and my father weremarried for 38 years before he
died but she's never dated again.
(04:20):
This has no plans to remarry,anything like that.
So just thinking about how Ican show up well for her and
like get her out of her shell.
So she's like become like anactivist in her older age.
So she does like housing,justice kind of things and she
volunteers a lot with her time.
And next year I'm taking her toCape Town, south Africa, with
(04:41):
me and this will be her firsttime coming out of the country.
So just really like beingpresent with her but also
learning from her that there'sso many seasons of your life and
so many versions of you to come.
I was a daddy's girl growing up,so when I think about my
(05:02):
childhood I automatically thinkof music.
So I come from a really musicalfamily and my dad in particular
was very musical, so he playedfive instruments and he sang and
we had a recording studio inour house and so when I think of
my childhood I think of music.
Like karaoke was our thing.
Like four times a week we weredoing karaoke in the house, like
that is our jam.
(05:23):
But it would be like not justlike fun karaoke, it would be
like there's a production, we'llput the reverb on like girl,
what's going on like why is thisa concert?
so yeah, I think of we just hada very like fun musical
household.
My dad worked at a factory forover 25 years and so he was very
(05:46):
good with his hands, but he wasalso an artist.
So seeing somebody have thatduality was really exciting as a
kid.
So he would, he built me likehe had a grand piano and he
built me a baby piano to matchit, and so we had our twin
pianos together.
He built me like a mini replicaof our house in the backyard is
like like a little doll house.
He I remember my like BarbieLamborghini we would drive
(06:10):
together which I thought it wasdriving was up street, but it
was like the ice cream shopthere where we would get rainbow
sherbet in German hot dogs,like a couple times a week.
And so, yeah, when I think of my, my childhood, I think of those
things.
Like we took nap time together.
He worked the third shift, sohis shift was like three to
eleven pm and so we would liketake a nap together at one and I
(06:32):
would like land his chest.
We would watch soaps together.
Like General Hospital, all mychildren like we had like our
little routine, and so that'swhat I think of when I think of
my childhood.
I think of like a lot of daddydaughter time, a lot of
connection and a lot of joy.
My mom it's funny like we'reclose now, but when I was
younger we weren't.
(06:52):
I think my dad was so big of apersonality and he was
everybody's favorite person thathe kind of he was the son.
And so now it's interesting,when I'm older, think about what
that must have been like forher being in the shadow all the
time, because she's like she'squieter.
(07:14):
What we had in common wasbowling.
So that's like she's a verychurchy woman, but bowling on
Thursday nights was her thing.
And so when I was younger I'dbeen bowling leagues.
I was in varsity bowling likewho gets a varsity letter for
bowling?
Like it was so embarrassing,but that was, that was our thing
in common.
And so when I think of my mom,I think of like good Christian
(07:34):
woman, like that was her, whichis a very funny juxtaposition to
my dad, because he's like he'snot a church person, like he's
like the one that's like in abar singing or like on a Harley.
He wrote Harley.
So like he was like theopposite of her.
But she was a Monday night,thursday night, twice on Sunday,
church woman and so, but sheheld the household together like
(07:59):
she was a cook every nightwoman.
So she went to work but everynight we had like hot meals at
home and the only thing she didout was was the bowling.
When I think of my childhood Idon't think of her as much,
which is really interesting.
But I think when I think offuture future me and book trips
a lot of that was about her.
(08:21):
We went to Mount Carrey, kojic,where Kojic people church, got
in Christ folks, and to get outof church, honestly, the only
thing I could do was go to thelibrary.
So she was the core to my loveof books because the church was,
the library was right acrossthe street from our church and
so I would go every week and getmy 10 books.
I think at that time that wasthe max you can get, was like 10
(08:43):
books a week, and so duringMonday night church service I
would get my 10 books and itwould be my escape, literally my
escape from church, but alsolike my escape into worlds that
were just different.
I grew up in a very blue collarsmall town in upstate New York.
It's interesting.
Now it's like Trump countrybecause it's like very rural.
It's very weird now to go backto.
(09:03):
But yeah, I just I found othergirls that were like me, that
were like shy but like had bigimaginations.
I think about like Amelia,bedelia and stuff like that, and
just girls who lived indifferent countries.
I was like, wow, there's aworld that's like bigger than
Geneva, like going to Rochester,which is like 45 minutes away,
(09:23):
was big, like that's a big city.
So there were like girls goingon explorations and living in
different places.
And so I think my mom, in abackhanded way, was really the
inspiration for my love ofliterature and storytelling.
And when I was little I wouldbe like four and then any other
little cousins, I would read tothem.
So like during family eventswe'd like put newspaper out
(09:44):
where the kids would like eattogether and I'd be like reading
to all the little kids and shewould encourage that and she was
always encouraging me to likewrite poetry, like I was a very
creative kid I drew, I wrotepoetry, I wrote songs, I would
sing, and so she was very muchencouraging of like that part of
me.
I would have this little totebag for my books.
(10:06):
I just was everything.
I loved it.
They had like these reallycomfortable couches and I would
just get lost in it and like mymom would have to like find me
like where in the library I was,because I would totally lose
track of time.
I feel like everybody's intobookstores now and I love
bookstores, especiallysupporting indie bookstores.
But I will always be a librarygirl, like it's the one place
(10:26):
that you don't have to spendmoney to belong, like there's
nowhere else that you could justsit for hours and be a human
being.
And especially like my librarywas like a very community
library where it was just likebooks, beautiful library, but
like DC public libraries, likeMLK library.
There's like history museums,there's art in there, there's
co-working spaces, they have therooftop, there's a cafe, like
(10:47):
there's everything in the worldthere and I'm like and it's for
free, amazing libraries.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
All day there's an unraveling from our families of
origin.
Those threads flail in the windfor a bit, but as we grow and
have our own experiences, thoseunraveled fibers begin to form
the fabric of who we are in ourown right.
This is a marker of growth andidentity, but for some of us
(11:13):
whose families had a tighterhold, it can feel like a
delicious rebellion.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
In undergrad and college I studied abroad in
Hungary and Romania and like no,my, like, my parents didn't
travel.
Like we would road trip at themax, but like my parents didn't
have passports, like going outof the country was not a thing.
Neither of my parents even wentto a four year university.
(11:42):
So to think about studyingabroad, like okay, so we, okay,
so you're, you go into college,but in a different country.
Do you know people over there?
Like what language do theyspeak?
What do they eat?
Like it was just like what,what are we?
What are we doing here?
And we don't have any money tosend you there.
So like I don't know how you'regoing to figure out the like
scholarship situation.
So it's just like.
I think that was the firstmoment where I was like okay,
(12:06):
this is, these are new watersthat nobody in my immediate
circle can help me navigate, soI have to like figure that out
myself.
That's the first scenario I can, I can think of of.
Like I want a thing that thepeople around me couldn't
imagine even wanting, and I havea curiosity that is bigger than
(12:27):
my parents curiosity would haveeven been.
So I think I in Hungary andRomania, a lot of all of all
places, like girl, you can go toLondon, like what's going on.
But I was studying race andethnic relations specifically
focused on the Roma there and Iwas just really interested in
(12:49):
like migration forced or bychoice and like how we create
community when we can't be in astatic place.
I was really interested in thatbecause I hadn't imagined
anything like that.
I grew up in a small town and myfamily lived there.
Like the house that I grew upin was the house that's still
(13:09):
there that my mom lives in.
I couldn't fathom that peoplehad community in different
places, that it was atplace-based but it was more
culture-based or tradition-basedin that those things could
travel with you.
It was just so different fromwho I was.
I just had to create a newidentity of someone who wasn't
(13:30):
scared to leave.
I think that's how a lot of mychildhood was kind of defined.
I went to college in my townbecause I couldn't fathom going
anywhere else, especiallybecause my dad got sick when I
was in undergrad.
So, not being in my hometown, Iwould go and bring my friends
(13:52):
to Sunday dinners at my family'shouse.
I would do laundry at myfamily's house in college, like
being somewhere different.
I couldn't fathom it at thatmoment.
And then it was the first timethat I was like, oh, I can be a
totally different person and I'mokay.
Like I'm okay that I didn'tneed the safety net of my family
(14:17):
to be okay in the world andactually I could thrive in a
different place that no one, meincluded, knew where it was on
the map before that.
Yeah, I think that was thefirst time and of course it
sparked a wanderlust and atravel bug from there, but it
was the first time that I couldtrust myself to stand on my own
(14:38):
feet.
Yeah, it's so funny because,looking back, I don't remember
being particularly scared, whichis like I must have been in the
moment.
But when I think about that trip, I think about the turn up.
Like I missed that girl.
I was the turn up girl.
So when I think of a memory, Ithink about Budapest.
They have these spa parties.
(14:59):
So there's these like ancientbass from the 1500s where they
would have DJs and like hundredsof people are just in the spa
bass and they party until like6am.
So I remember like going tothose spa parties.
We would like be walking homeat 5am for class at 9am.
Like the turn up is what Iremember.
(15:21):
When I think about that time,like I was just like out there,
free and living.
I was like, okay, we outsideoutside I was like I'm convinced
black people, white people,party differently because, like
child, the things that happened.
I was like, oh, that's what Ithink about.
I just think about like havingfun and like we would just walk
(15:43):
around.
Like like I don't speakRomanian, but like I would just
go around and figure it out.
I'd meet a random person and belike, oh, let's go to lunch
together and we'd go to lunchand I didn't know this stranger
before and I was like that's notthe person I am at home.
So I think those are what Ithink about of like I just
leaned into it and I had thistrust that folks have my best
interest at heart, like and I'mhere to explore and to learn and
(16:09):
to connect with people, andlike that's what I did.
I experienced every bit of ittopped the bottom.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I remember an anniversary my spouse and I
celebrated during the lockdownportion of the pandemic.
He ordered food from a fancyrestaurant, we had a date night
activity box from a subscriptionservice and our daughter was
the evening's entertainment witha very cute and very funny
magic and comedy routine she'dbeen practicing.
As I was attempting to getdressed up for once, trading my
(16:43):
daily sweatpants and t-shirtsfor something more appropriate,
I became overwhelmed withanxiety and, just understandably
, the entire world wascollectively losing it.
But, all things considered, inmy personal circumstances, I was
blindsided by this mix ofexcitement for an evening of
(17:07):
levity, right alongside mydesire to just put my sweats
back on, cancel the evening andgo to bed.
But I had the privilege in thatmoment to take a beat, say a
prayer and announce out loud tomyself standing in the mirror in
my bedroom Anxiety, I see thatyou're in the car with me, but
(17:29):
you can't drive.
Did my anxious thoughts andfeelings disappear?
Not really.
Did I somehow cure myself ofall future anxiety?
Absolutely not.
But it unlocked this newperspective that I had some
level of agency over my will andover my perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I feel like a part of it is like acknowledging the
anxiety that it's there, thefear that it's there because it
is real, pretending that it'snot, isn't that?
But just knowing that you havemore choice than it feels like.
So when I'm in not an anxietyattack, but when I'm in anxious
moment, it feels likeeverything's narrow, there's no
(18:12):
choice, it's just going to drivethis thing.
But taking that positiveacknowledgement allows you to
say I have some choice, I couldgive into that and that's a
choice.
And sometimes that's just thechoice because it just is too
overwhelming.
But sometimes there are otherchoices, like is there a moment
of breath?
Is there a moment of tapping?
(18:32):
Is there just a moment of pausebetween what you're feeling and
how you're responding?
I'm the most scaredy cat personin the world.
Like people are like oh, you'reso brave because you're all
over the world.
I'm not brave.
I wouldn't say I'm brave.
I just think I allow my fear tosit alongside me and I think
(18:56):
I'm more curious than I'mfearful and I know that I trust
myself enough to know that I canget through whatever.
Like most scenarios, I canfigure it out.
I'm going to cry first.
I am going to cry and then I'mgoing to figure it out.
And so I've had enough examplesof that where I can trust
(19:16):
myself to move beyond the fear,like because I know I'm equipped
, like I've seen myself navigateenough that I'm like okay,
whatever comes good, bad orotherwise like I can move
through it.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Jalisa and I met through a very different work
for a large church.
She was working on thephilanthropy side of things and
I in music.
We've since both left theseroles and this organization.
I won't go into details of ourseparate departures, but I will
echo the sentiment that I'veheard from folks in the
nonprofit world.
The culture and demands ofnonprofit work are sometimes at
(19:54):
the cost of one'sself-preservation.
I asked Jalisa to tell me abouther departure from the
nonprofit philanthropy world.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
When I saw this question I was like I felt a
palpable, like something notgood where I was just like I
just feel emotional about it.
I think that part's still raw.
I think I stumbled intophilanthropy but I feel like I
stumble into everything.
There's like not intentionalityuntil I story tell it in
(20:27):
retrospect.
But I came into philanthropy.
I went to get my masters at theUniversity of Maryland and they
had a new specialization at thetime which was nonprofit
management and leadership.
There were these classes inphilanthropy and I had never
heard of philanthropy before.
I had worked in nonprofit work.
So in undergrad I didAmeriCorps, we did Jumpstart,
(20:51):
america Reads.
So I already had the beliefthat I was going to change the
world and that's why I came toDC.
And so in undergrad, to gobackwards, did Jumpstart, did
America Reads, and then therewas a study abroad program.
So the second time I wentabroad was not abroad, it was in
DC.
(21:11):
So my focus was in undergrad.
My majors were public policy andsociology, and so coming to DC
where like laws were made wasdefinitely like oh, I have to
come there.
And not only did I come for thepolicy part, but I was like a
place where black people are themajority.
It was Chocolate City back thenwhich is dating me because it's
(21:33):
not been Chocolate City in insome time but coming to a place
where, like, not only were blackpeople the majority, but they
were empowered.
And I didn't grow up in a placewhere black people felt
empowered.
It felt like things happened tous, not that we could have an
impact on things.
So coming to DC blew my worldopen and people come here to
(21:55):
change the world.
So that energy of being like anintern in the city and all the
ways that you can make an impactI was already very interested
in that.
So when I went to get mymaster's in public policy and
they had this focus on nonprofitmanagement and leadership, I
was very interested in thesector.
But then there was theseclasses in philanthropy and I
was like what, you can givemoney away as a job.
Okay, I'm going to do that.
(22:16):
Like that sounds really amazing.
And through that program we gotconnected to different
foundations that we can work at,and I worked at.
The Greater WashingtonCommunity Foundation was where
my internship was and I wouldjust loved the ability to have
an impact on the other side ofit, where it was like we have
(22:37):
this abundance and how do we usethis abundance to support the
well-being of our community?
So I was really, reallyintrigued by that, and so I
worked in the sector indifferent ways for over a decade
.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I asked Jalisa if, after a more than decade-long
career, would she considerreturning to philanthropy.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Not in the season.
I think there's a lot of likeharm I have to work through.
I think working in thenonprofit sector, more largely
where philanthropy sits in, isnot for the faint of heart.
I think especially working init during the pandemic was
really tough for me.
I lost seven, eight familymembers in like a two-year span,
(23:22):
and I was also the director ata nonprofit Building.
Something, while you'remourning, is an experience that
I was not prepared for, and Icried every single day for over
a year and the feeling that Iwas a failure because I couldn't
do it like I couldn't.
(23:44):
That reservoir that previouslyI could draw from was empty and
so for that reason, I had towalk away from the sector.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Prior to the pandemic and right before what would
become Jalisa's last role inphilanthropy, she was doing some
consulting work for anotherinstitution.
Jalisa was leading the effortfor a small foundation within a
church.
This foundation distributedgrant funding to community
organizations.
A few years before Jalisabecame the program director for
(24:23):
this fund, there had been a verypublic and painful departure of
a black leader from the church.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
That job came on the heels of some consulting work
that I did at a small foundationof sorts inside like a
progressive church, and the workthat I did there was really
cool, like creating the systemsand processes to give money into
communities in ways that had areally local impact.
(24:52):
So building from the ground upwas really exciting.
But it being a very like whitespace, they didn't have the
skills and capacities to holdthe values that they espoused.
So they wanted to be veryanti-racist and they wanted to
(25:13):
focus on racial justice and Ithink the intentions and values
were there but they the internalsystems and processes and
skills hadn't caught up to thatdesire.
When I came on this fund astheir first program officer, I
was also their first black womanprogram officer and this is on
the heels of.
(25:33):
In the wider church where thisfund was sitting, there was a
black woman minister who hadbeen fired recently, and so when
I was going into meetings tomeet with grantees they were
like, oh, didn't y'all just gothrough some drama around like
firing a black woman, likewhat's going on there?
And so like I had to be themouthpiece for this larger like
(25:54):
harm that people had been awareof that was happening.
And then, shortly after mecoming on there, there's the
first black woman, ed of theorganization.
So there's these like pockettoken black women that they were
trying to signal that they'reprogressive, but there was no
support or skill for how do youcreate a safety net around these
(26:18):
women.
So it was just like you're outthere trying to be the only one
and there's like and the amountof harm that was happening, the
amount of emails I would getevery week with somebody being
like oh, I know, I'm likeprobably racist, so can we just
have a coffee conversation whereyou can teach me to be anti
racist?
Like what does this have to dowith my job title?
Like I don't understand, and itwould never be so many.
(26:39):
At least twice a week therewould be somebody being like can
we get coffee where you canjust like tell me how to be less
harmful?
Like what is going on?
Like that's why I was like Iwill never be the first or the
only again in any situation.
Like a lot of people see thatas like this is an exciting
signal of something good to come, but I'm very fearful for black
(27:02):
women in particular when you'rethe first or the only in a
space, because I think about allof the unspoken harm that you
have to carry while you're alsotrying to do the job that you
were brought in to do.
There was like a grantee meetingthat we held, and this was the
(27:23):
first set of grantees that wasover 75% people of color.
Most of those women led, some ofthose trans women led, and so
it was just a very differentdocket of nonprofits that we
were supporting which peoplewere really excited about.
But I think at the moment wedidn't have the space for how
people should show up and there,and so one of our grantees was
(27:47):
a black trans woman and she wastalking about how, yes, I'm
grateful for this grant, butdon't feel like this absolves
you of something or that youshould pat yourself on the back
and that you're this isn't likelife changing work.
Like, yes, I'm thankful, butlike I'm still a black trans
woman in a very violent city andmy experience is not absolved
(28:07):
off of like $10,000 grant, andthat really rubs some people the
wrong way.
And there was one woman inparticular who, like, was very
combative with the grantee andthen the grantee was having a
conversation with her that shedidn't have the internal space
to hold until she left.
But after she said the granteeattacked her and she really like
(28:32):
, she really wanted the granteeto pay, like she really wanted
retribution for what washappening.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Jalisa and her team began to work through the harm
caused by this interactionbetween the grantee and the
woman from the grant panel andquite quickly circumstances
became untenable for Jalisa.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
We held healing circles and things like that.
But that experience was reallyhard because for months she
would email me and be like Ithink you're racist or like you
know you're minimizing whathappened to me and like nothing
was enough.
The healing circles weren'tenough.
We had many meetings with her.
We had one of those likehealing circles where they
(29:15):
brought in these externalfacilitators who did not have
the skills to hold wherereconciliation looks like in
diverse settings, where at theend of it this person starts
crying, says she feels attackedand literally it was like people
.
We had a reconciliation processwith the whole grantee
committee and people were justsharing their experience and it
(29:35):
was we, usi statements, all ofthese ground rules.
People were sharing theirexperiences.
She said she felt attacked andstarted crying and then it
centered her again and it waslike we don't have the skills to
do this, like we really justdon't.
And for months she would likesend me pages of emails three
o'clock in the morning that wasjust telling me how harmful I
(29:57):
was, how harmful the grantee waslike, and I had no support from
the organization.
I would send it to theexecutive director, I would send
it to the board of the churchthat the foundation was held in
and they did nothing and it justI had never felt that scared.
Don't my email?
(30:18):
Like every day I didn't knowwhat was going to be.
The email Like like would shesue me?
Like what was going to happen?
Like then there was just so muchfear on the part of the people
in power in the church, wherethey want to everybody just get
along, so they were like it'llprobably work itself out and
(30:38):
like the lack of support I feltas a black woman, like it really
scarred me and at that sametime one of the members who was
on the grantee committee died.
It was just a lot going on andno support around it, and so I
think that experience going intothen being a director at a
nonprofit, in a pandemic likethose, that four year process
(31:04):
like really really took methrough it and it honestly broke
me.
So that was how I got out ofphilanthropy.
I just I couldn't handle thatlevel of grief and knowing that
we didn't have the systems tohold it.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
After leaving the funding work at the church,
Jalisa took on what would becomeher last role in nonprofit
philanthropy work.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The sector comes in with these values around, like
we're a family, and this likebuilt-in martyrdom of, like you
expect to be paid low wages andwork long hours because the
people that you're working onbehalf of have it worse than you
.
And so there's this likebuilt-in yeah, kind of martyrdom
(31:57):
to the sector, which worked fora while until the pandemic hit,
the moment that I knew I neededto reboot myself.
Where I was working at thenonprofit, where I was a
director, we had just launchedthe, we were on Zoom, in a
(32:20):
gathering, we would have thesemonthly sessions.
And I'm facilitating thesession and I get a text message
from my mom that my uncle diedand my first thought was, huh, I
wonder how I can keepfacilitating the session and
like what I need to do to notfeel anything in this moment so
(32:42):
I can get through the session.
My first thought wasn't like ohwow, I'm devastated that I lost
one of my favorite uncles.
Like how's my mom doing?
How am I going to get home?
Like it wasn't about the death,it was like how do I numb
myself enough to be theprofessional that I'm expected
to be in this moment?
(33:06):
And that's when I knew somethingwas deeply broken.
Something was really, reallywrong, that the only way I could
see being an effectiveprofessional was to be less
human.
And I feel like that was theturning point where I was like,
(33:28):
oh, I can't, there's no comingback from this because I don't
like the person.
I'm going to be on the otherside of this, like I had lost so
much, and I thought that theissue was I wasn't strong enough
(33:55):
.
Like that, I was the issue.
Nobody should lose seven peoplein that amount of time and
worry about facilitating themeeting.
We're doing work where we'retalking about how do we build
the systems and processes forpeople to live well and
experience well-being.
And I was the least well I hadever been in my life.
(34:18):
Like the disconnect between theworld I wanted to create and my
work and the world I wasexperiencing in my day-to-day
life.
The golf was too big and so,yeah, I knew, if I was going to
be the type of human I wanted tobe in the world, that I
couldn't work like that and theonly way I could see for it was
(34:39):
to leave.
And I won't say I don't want tovillainize like the folks that
were running the organization,like the ED and the COO, or
Black women, and I feel like ifI could have been more
transparent sooner, they wouldhave tried to show up better for
me.
So I don't want to villainizethem, but I think it was modeled
(35:02):
so much the ED was a woman inher intersex or she had come out
of retirement to come take thatposition as the head of the
organization and she had thevery like like Gen X mindset of
like you push through, you goalong to get along like civil
rights era kind of energy, oflike there's nothing too much to
(35:25):
give for the work.
Like she was on one call withCOVID and she was like yeah, I
mean it's fine.
Like she was obviously not fine, but like she had pushed
through.
So there was this like unspokenkind of expectation of like
pushing through and I felt like,oh, it's like a millennial
weakness in me and like that I'mthe problem, like there's
(35:48):
something wrong with me that Ican't push through enough and
that I don't have the sense ofwill enough.
So, like in that moment I justfelt like it was a big personal
feeling.
But I think there's, lookingback, there's a cultural failing
where, like we feel like theonly way to do the work is at
(36:08):
the expense of ourselves.
Is this really all we canimagine?
Like we're trying to imaginethese just worlds but we can't
even imagine a life where we'renot working ourselves through
sickness and we can't enjoy,there's not this sense of
(36:34):
enjoyment being a part of thejourney.
Like is this?
How limited is our imaginationthat we can say these big words
but we can't practice them ineven the smallest ways in our
lives?
It was very disappointing,honestly, to see.
To look ahead, I was this highachieving person and like there
(36:55):
was a pathway that I could havewalked into of continued
nonprofit leadership and Icouldn't imagine wanting that.
And so it was like really thiscrisis of like sense of self.
Like, oh, I had worked to workto, toward this thing that I
(37:15):
thought I wanted, but then thelife I would have with it was
like, oh, there's no way.
Like there's no way I want tobe the person I would have to be
to keep at this pace into excel.
And there was just so fewmodels of women who were in
(37:36):
nonprofit leadership who werewell, like I was talking to my
friends and like they too werequitting.
Like there was this mass exodusfrom the sector where they were
like there's no way Like there,this just is not sustainable to
work in the way that you'reexpected to work and to give up
the things you're expected togive up.
(37:56):
And so the transition out ofthat was really like, yeah, I
felt like survival, like I tooka sabbatical that was originally
supposed to be a three monthand turned into a six month
sabbatical because I was just Iphysically could not work.
Like when I went to startlooking for a consulting client,
I would have panic attacks,like I literally could not do
(38:17):
the work and like how scaredthat made me feel because I had
used so much of my savings.
And like I physically couldn't,like my body could not, and I
was like, girl, you're, you'remaking reports, like what is
going on, but like I physicallywas like so spent I don't want
(38:38):
to say triggered, because peopleuse trigger too much but there
was such a visual reaction likeI could not push through for the
first time in my life and so Ineeded to do something totally
different.
And that's where book trips came, because it was something just
totally different and it wasn'tabout how hard I could push
(39:01):
myself even though I'm still inlearning that but it was like
how can I create spaces wherepeople could connect about the
idea that propel them about thethings that are hard, but you
have a community of people thatyou can talk about them like,
where you can come and be yourauthentic self with other women
and you can be in awe and youcan explore.
(39:23):
And it's not about performing.
It's like the one place thatyou don't have to perform.
You don't have to show up anycertain kind of way to belong
Like.
I wanted to create that becauseit's so much of what I needed
in that moment where I didn'tknow what I had to offer outside
of what I could produce.
I wanted to create a spacewhere other people didn't have
(39:43):
to offer anything.
All they had to do was come.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
In October of 2022, jalisa invited me, along with a
group of dynamic, beautifulwomen, for the lunch dinner of
booked trips.
I remember that was aparticularly difficult time for
me Shout out to seasonaldepression and I almost wanted
to flake on the whole evening.
I'm so glad I didn't.
(40:11):
Jalisa had crafted a 10 courseprivate dining experience based
on the book you Made a Fool ofDeath with your Beauty by Aqueke
Amazing.
She thought of everything Acustom playlist setting the vibe
of the evening and bringing usback to each sumptuous chapter
(40:33):
of the book.
Delicious garden to table foodin a thoughtfully designed home,
a beautifully set table withswag and decor from her favorite
vendors and small businesses.
I was blissed out sittingaround the table, laughing and
bonding with these incrediblewomen, all brought together in
(40:55):
the name of books and by ourphenomenal friend.
I felt sane but, mostimportantly, I felt held, and I
needed that.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Early October October 8th to be specific we
celebrated the one yearanniversary of book trips, so I
brought together some of thealumni of our trips and some
supporters for a 10 course or 10chapter meal with eats and
beats, and we read butter, honey, pig bread, and so the recipes
(41:28):
and meals from the book, as wellas music that was mentioned,
for the book was used to createa really curated dinner
experience, and it was justreally lovely to be celebrated
and to celebrate other people.
So I'm really really interestedin, like, how do we use food as
a conduit for connection, andthat night was just, yeah, the
(41:48):
epitome of what I was lookingfor.
Like the women who came theretogether like felt like they had
found friendship.
The food was so delicious andit was just a chance to
celebrate.
Like I'm looking for ways tocelebrate along the journey.
So entrepreneurship can be very, very difficult.
It has a lot of ups and downs,and so I'm committed to how do I
have joy along the journey, notas this destination that's far
(42:11):
off, but just something that's aregular practice, and so it was
really good to take a pause andlook back at this thing.
That was a dream in my headthat is now a reality.
That's bringing women togetherall around the world and just
yeah, celebrating that.
I had to dig deep because I hadbuilt my identity around being
like a high-performing nonprofitprofessional and like those are
(42:34):
the only skill sets that Ithought I had.
I could do program management,evaluation, facilitation, like
that's what I knew how to do.
I knew how to do it well.
I knew how to perform well inthe nonprofit sector, and so I
think the courage it took toimagine a different path that
(42:56):
was about something totallydifferent.
I think that was a courageoustime of my life.
It's really funny.
One of my friends, akilah she,had taken a screenshot of an
Instagram story I wrote inAugust 2021, where I was like
you know what?
I think I have another careerin me.
I want to merge my loves ofphilanthropy and travel and
(43:18):
books and I want to like bringauthors together and bring
people together to talk abouttheir work.
I don't know what that lookslike, but I'm just putting it
out here so that there'saccountability, and my friend
Akilah had sent me a screenshotthat screenshot of it and like a
couple weeks ago, she was likeyou did it.
Like in two years you did it,and I think the courageousness
(43:40):
to have this further unpolishedidea and like invite other
people to live in your dream.
It's one thing to dream it, butit's another thing to allow
people to experience it and havethoughts about it.
I think the courageousness todo something totally different
that way.
I'm really really proud of that.
(44:04):
It's funny because I'm I used tobe, and in some ways I am, very
type A, but when it comes tobook I don't have a set process,
which is very interesting.
So right now I'm reading theCreative Act by Rick Rubin and
he talks about how creativity islike just kind of being open to
inspiration.
So I think that's my process islike when it comes to came to
(44:27):
that dinner in particular, Iread Bun or Honey Pig Bread and
it was just in love with thestory and how a bucket of the
place was and how you could liketaste the food almost where I
was like no, I need this, likethis plate I needed immediately
and so I just thought, like whatwould living in this book feel
(44:48):
like?
So which of these dishes wouldI want to have together?
Like when I think of some ofthe stories that one of the
characters were telling aboutthe dad.
The way they introduced thefather was his records and I was
like, oh, when I'm thinking ofa playlist, I want to start with
this record, because the loveof this story is really tied
into the relationship with thefather.
And so starting starting there,but then also being like
(45:12):
there's like a chaos about Lagos, nigeria, like how do I, how do
I reflect that in a playlist?
Like what are the transitionslook like, so that you can feel
a little bit of the alivenessbut the chaos that is existing
there.
But then also like reallygrounding it in the warmth.
So I was reading an authorinterview and she talked about
how her grandmother had made hermosa, which was on our menu,
(45:37):
and now that she's older shedoesn't make it anymore, but it
makes her think about herchildhood.
So really grounding this inlike family, because that's what
the book was about.
How do I make this feel likefamily?
How do we have a conversationat the table that grounds us in
our connection to each other?
How do we introduce ourselvesin ways that are not about like
what we do in the world, but we?
The quite the opening questionwas like who are your people
(45:59):
Like?
Who are you with when you feelmost yourself.
So, starting with that sense oflike who am I in the way I
define it Now, how the externalworld defines it, but how I'm
feeling in this moment, what'scoming to the top that I want
you to know about me, for us tohave this conversation and this
meal together?
So, yeah, I think that's kindof my process, like how do I
want people to feel, how did Ifeel reading it and how do I
(46:21):
want to translate that to others?
What would be the mostconducive to people feeling like
they belong here, that they'reexcited, that they're connected?
And larger booked experiences.
I think it's just being verypresent out in the world.
So I'll read a book where theplace is very central to it.
I'll think about the food ofthat place, the culture of that
place, but then I let it sit fora while, like I make
(46:45):
itineraries a year in advance,but then I just allow myself to
be inspired.
There'll be a podcast I listento, an article I read or a walk
in nature that'll bring someform of inspiration, that it'll
be a thread that you would havenever thought of, but now that
you're open to it, you see allthese things are talking to each
other.
So, for example, we're going toMexico City and so of course
(47:09):
Mexico City is a foodie city.
So there's that piece in thebook that we're reading is about
a woman who's a bigamist.
So she has a husband in LaredoTexas and she has a husband in
Mexico City, and it's not aspoiler to say that a murder
happens, and so it's like veryspicy.
It's about like what's hiddenunderneath the surface.
It's about what women areallowed to desire.
(47:31):
What does it look like to be anon-traditional woman and not be
apologetic about those things?
And so there was a story I wastelling that was very much about
Mexico City.
There's the Frito-Cala angleabout like a non-traditional
woman, like there's these thingsthat you would guess.
But then I happened to bestumbling upon an archive and I
was reading Audre Lorde Sammy, anew spelling of my name, and
(47:54):
she talks about studying at UNAM, a university in Mexico City,
and then she talks about how heridentity as a black feminist
warrior poet was reallysolidified in her time in Mexico
City.
And then it got me down therabbit hole of reading her work
(48:15):
around the erotic and aroundpleasure.
And then that felt connectedand I was like, wow, there's all
these threads that I would have, like I wasn't thinking about
those things.
So I think it's very muchhaving a frame, but allowing
myself to be surprised in an aweis my process.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I'm proud of my friend.
I'm inspired by her journey.
I want for her what I want forall of the people I love A deep,
abiding peace and contentmentpleasure, even in their life and
their circumstances.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
I think I have a kind of a strong relationship with
pleasure.
Like I'm always thinking about,like what is the most enjoyable
experience I can have right now.
And I think that's new, becauseI used to be like long
suffering, like girl.
Why?
Like I always felt like I hadto work the hardest, stay the
longest, need the least, like Ithought that was something
(49:14):
admirable about me for myself tobe as small as possible so that
other folks could take up thespace, but it led me to a lot of
burnout.
And so now my relationship withpleasure, it's something that
intentionality what would I want, what do I want to feel, what
do I want to experience in thismoment?
And how do I give myself that?
And allowing myself to just doit.
(49:35):
Like, for example, later todayI'm taking an impromptu trip to
Brussels because Mansour Brown,this musician that I love, is
playing in Brussels and I can dothat because I want to, and so
like doing that.
And there's a friend that'sthere for a trip with the UN,
and so I'll also get to see afriend.
So it's like just being veryopen to this might not be the
(49:56):
most practical thing in theworld, but why not when I'm
working, like knowing when isenough.
I think that's pleasurable tosay.
You know what, today I havedone enough and I want to have a
dance party in my living roomand I'm going to do that.
It's eating good food, likereally being present for like
the deliciousness of food andlike giving myself that.
(50:19):
So I think for me, pleasure isabout like really tuning into
what I want and desire and likegiving myself that, not in a
hedonistic way, but in a way oflike knowing that I deserve that
.
There's not something bad aboutwanting certain things and
feeling things really deeply.
When I think of the small towngirl.
I grew up in a place where thepopulation is like I don't know.
(50:42):
I think it's definitely lessthan 30,000 people.
It's a very, very small townand like I couldn't imagine
myself going to, like living ina different part of upstate New
York.
Like I went to undergrad in thetown that I lived in.
So from that to living a lifewhere I can like, without much
thought, like just have toexperience in a different
(51:04):
country and feel comfortabledoing that, I've solo traveled
to over 20 countries.
Like I'm just so different fromthe person that I could have
imagined I was scared ofeverything as a kid Like, so
scared of everything, veryinsular, just scared.
And now it's not that I'm notscared, but I don't use that
fear as like a decider of how Ilive my life.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Deep gratitude to Jalisa for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rachelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe Arts and Humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit bymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash.
Tell her this For more.
(51:47):
Tell Her this content.
Please visittellherthespodcastcom and follow
on social media at Tell Herthis podcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(52:07):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Booked Trips, please visit
bookedtripscom.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Ray Jallow, and I'myour host, rachelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rachelle RiceMusic across all social
(52:31):
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell.
Welcome back to Tell Her this podcast, a storytelling
podcast from women.
No advice, no self-help, justperspective and stories.
I'm your host, rachelle Rice,and I love that I can share
these stories across platformsand at no cost to you, the
listener.
But let's be clear podcastingtakes money and a lot of time.
(00:25):
Please consider supporting thislabor of love at
buymeacoffeecom forward slash.
Tell her this.
For as little as $5, you canhelp ensure that I can keep
bringing you these incrediblestories.
That's buymeacoffeecom forwardslash.
Tell her this.
The link is also in the shownotes.
(00:46):
Alright, let's get started.
Restless wonder.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is the Tell Her this podcast.
Why won't you unfold?
My name is Jalisa Whitley and Iam 33 years old.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
My friend Jalisa is driven and intentional.
She's the kind of woman youwant to know and then want to be
friends with a true lover ofbooks, an intellectual and
someone with a clear sense ofself.
Jalisa is a seeker, a maker anda dreamer and a doer, a lover
(01:33):
of travel.
In fact, if you've beenlistening to Tell Her this for a
while, you'll recognize thatshe is the founder of Booked
Trips, a curated travelexperience for women who love
books.
More on that later.
Jalisa, like mosthigh-achieving women I know, is
a bounty of a person, and when Isat down to hear her stories I
(01:57):
learned that the beautiful lifeshe has created came at a cost
and in learning how to walk away, learning how to get free.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It's hard to say who I am now because I feel like I'm
in process.
So I'm a woman who's practicingbeing free in the world.
I am beginning to think ofmyself as a creative, not in the
sense of an artist, but a senseof how I move in the world.
So I'm a person who's alwaysopen to inspiration and to being
(02:30):
in all of the world.
So I think I'm a person who'sworking on presence when I think
about myself and a person who'spracticing joy.
So not joy just in like the bigthings, but also just joy in
being satisfiable.
So I've been thinking a lotabout Aja.
Marie Brown talks aboutsatisfiability in the context of
her work around pleasure,activism, and so what does it
(02:52):
mean to like have enough?
And so I'm a person who'sreally practicing enoughness,
like what's enough of food,what's enough of travel, what's
enough in belongings, what'senough in terms of like friends,
so just being reallysatisfiable in the moment.
So I'm a person who's workingon satisfiability and presence
(03:15):
in being in community.
Community part is reallyimportant and hard for me right
now.
It's like how do I show up well, even when I'm not showing up
perfect?
So that's the perfectionismpiece in me.
I want to be the best friendthat's always responding to
(03:36):
texts like fully in in themoment and it's just hard at
this stage in my life.
So how do I bring my imperfectself and have and let that
offering be enough?
I'm from upstate New York,geneva, new York and so I in my
adulthood have gotten lessinvolved in my family.
(03:59):
But I want to show updifferently.
I think it's going down for thefourth of July, going down for
Thanksgiving, just checking inwith my mom.
More so she's getting older.
So she's in her late sixtiesand thinking about what it looks
like to be a single woman atthat age.
So her and my father weremarried for 38 years before he
died but she's never dated again.
(04:20):
This has no plans to remarry,anything like that.
So just thinking about how Ican show up well for her and
like get her out of her shell.
So she's like become like anactivist in her older age.
So she does like housing,justice kind of things and she
volunteers a lot with her time.
And next year I'm taking her toCape Town, south Africa, with
(04:41):
me and this will be her firsttime coming out of the country.
So just really like beingpresent with her but also
learning from her that there'sso many seasons of your life and
so many versions of you to come.
I was a daddy's girl growing up,so when I think about my
(05:02):
childhood I automatically thinkof music.
So I come from a really musicalfamily and my dad in particular
was very musical, so he playedfive instruments and he sang and
we had a recording studio inour house and so when I think of
my childhood I think of music.
Like karaoke was our thing.
Like four times a week we weredoing karaoke in the house, like
that is our jam.
(05:23):
But it would be like not justlike fun karaoke, it would be
like there's a production, we'llput the reverb on like girl,
what's going on like why is thisa concert?
so yeah, I think of we just hada very like fun musical
household.
My dad worked at a factory forover 25 years and so he was very
(05:46):
good with his hands, but he wasalso an artist.
So seeing somebody have thatduality was really exciting as a
kid.
So he would, he built me likehe had a grand piano and he
built me a baby piano to matchit, and so we had our twin
pianos together.
He built me like a mini replicaof our house in the backyard is
like like a little doll house.
He I remember my like BarbieLamborghini we would drive
(06:10):
together which I thought it wasdriving was up street, but it
was like the ice cream shopthere where we would get rainbow
sherbet in German hot dogs,like a couple times a week.
And so, yeah, when I think of my, my childhood, I think of those
things.
Like we took nap time together.
He worked the third shift, sohis shift was like three to
eleven pm and so we would liketake a nap together at one and I
(06:32):
would like land his chest.
We would watch soaps together.
Like General Hospital, all mychildren like we had like our
little routine, and so that'swhat I think of when I think of
my childhood.
I think of like a lot of daddydaughter time, a lot of
connection and a lot of joy.
My mom it's funny like we'reclose now, but when I was
younger we weren't.
(06:52):
I think my dad was so big of apersonality and he was
everybody's favorite person thathe kind of he was the son.
And so now it's interesting,when I'm older, think about what
that must have been like forher being in the shadow all the
time, because she's like she'squieter.
(07:14):
What we had in common wasbowling.
So that's like she's a verychurchy woman, but bowling on
Thursday nights was her thing.
And so when I was younger I'dbeen bowling leagues.
I was in varsity bowling likewho gets a varsity letter for
bowling?
Like it was so embarrassing,but that was, that was our thing
in common.
And so when I think of my mom,I think of like good Christian
(07:34):
woman, like that was her, whichis a very funny juxtaposition to
my dad, because he's like he'snot a church person, like he's
like the one that's like in abar singing or like on a Harley.
He wrote Harley.
So like he was like theopposite of her.
But she was a Monday night,thursday night, twice on Sunday,
church woman and so, but sheheld the household together like
(07:59):
she was a cook every nightwoman.
So she went to work but everynight we had like hot meals at
home and the only thing she didout was was the bowling.
When I think of my childhood Idon't think of her as much,
which is really interesting.
But I think when I think offuture future me and book trips
a lot of that was about her.
(08:21):
We went to Mount Carrey, kojic,where Kojic people church, got
in Christ folks, and to get outof church, honestly, the only
thing I could do was go to thelibrary.
So she was the core to my loveof books because the church was,
the library was right acrossthe street from our church and
so I would go every week and getmy 10 books.
I think at that time that wasthe max you can get, was like 10
(08:43):
books a week, and so duringMonday night church service I
would get my 10 books and itwould be my escape, literally my
escape from church, but alsolike my escape into worlds that
were just different.
I grew up in a very blue collarsmall town in upstate New York.
It's interesting.
Now it's like Trump countrybecause it's like very rural.
It's very weird now to go backto.
(09:03):
But yeah, I just I found othergirls that were like me, that
were like shy but like had bigimaginations.
I think about like Amelia,bedelia and stuff like that, and
just girls who lived indifferent countries.
I was like, wow, there's aworld that's like bigger than
Geneva, like going to Rochester,which is like 45 minutes away,
(09:23):
was big, like that's a big city.
So there were like girls goingon explorations and living in
different places.
And so I think my mom, in abackhanded way, was really the
inspiration for my love ofliterature and storytelling.
And when I was little I wouldbe like four and then any other
little cousins, I would read tothem.
So like during family eventswe'd like put newspaper out
(09:44):
where the kids would like eattogether and I'd be like reading
to all the little kids and shewould encourage that and she was
always encouraging me to likewrite poetry, like I was a very
creative kid I drew, I wrotepoetry, I wrote songs, I would
sing, and so she was very muchencouraging of like that part of
me.
I would have this little totebag for my books.
(10:06):
I just was everything.
I loved it.
They had like these reallycomfortable couches and I would
just get lost in it and like mymom would have to like find me
like where in the library I was,because I would totally lose
track of time.
I feel like everybody's intobookstores now and I love
bookstores, especiallysupporting indie bookstores.
But I will always be a librarygirl, like it's the one place
(10:26):
that you don't have to spendmoney to belong, like there's
nowhere else that you could justsit for hours and be a human
being.
And especially like my librarywas like a very community
library where it was just likebooks, beautiful library, but
like DC public libraries, likeMLK library.
There's like history museums,there's art in there, there's
co-working spaces, they have therooftop, there's a cafe, like
(10:47):
there's everything in the worldthere and I'm like and it's for
free, amazing libraries.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
All day there's an unraveling from our families of
origin.
Those threads flail in the windfor a bit, but as we grow and
have our own experiences, thoseunraveled fibers begin to form
the fabric of who we are in ourown right.
This is a marker of growth andidentity, but for some of us
(11:13):
whose families had a tighterhold, it can feel like a
delicious rebellion.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
In undergrad and college I studied abroad in
Hungary and Romania and like no,my, like, my parents didn't
travel.
Like we would road trip at themax, but like my parents didn't
have passports, like going outof the country was not a thing.
Neither of my parents even wentto a four year university.
(11:42):
So to think about studyingabroad, like okay, so we, okay,
so you're, you go into college,but in a different country.
Do you know people over there?
Like what language do theyspeak?
What do they eat?
Like it was just like what,what are we?
What are we doing here?
And we don't have any money tosend you there.
So like I don't know how you'regoing to figure out the like
scholarship situation.
So it's just like.
I think that was the firstmoment where I was like okay,
(12:06):
this is, these are new watersthat nobody in my immediate
circle can help me navigate, soI have to like figure that out
myself.
That's the first scenario I can, I can think of of.
Like I want a thing that thepeople around me couldn't
imagine even wanting, and I havea curiosity that is bigger than
(12:27):
my parents curiosity would haveeven been.
So I think I in Hungary andRomania, a lot of all of all
places, like girl, you can go toLondon, like what's going on.
But I was studying race andethnic relations specifically
focused on the Roma there and Iwas just really interested in
(12:49):
like migration forced or bychoice and like how we create
community when we can't be in astatic place.
I was really interested in thatbecause I hadn't imagined
anything like that.
I grew up in a small town and myfamily lived there.
Like the house that I grew upin was the house that's still
(13:09):
there that my mom lives in.
I couldn't fathom that peoplehad community in different
places, that it was atplace-based but it was more
culture-based or tradition-basedin that those things could
travel with you.
It was just so different fromwho I was.
I just had to create a newidentity of someone who wasn't
(13:30):
scared to leave.
I think that's how a lot of mychildhood was kind of defined.
I went to college in my townbecause I couldn't fathom going
anywhere else, especiallybecause my dad got sick when I
was in undergrad.
So, not being in my hometown, Iwould go and bring my friends
(13:52):
to Sunday dinners at my family'shouse.
I would do laundry at myfamily's house in college, like
being somewhere different.
I couldn't fathom it at thatmoment.
And then it was the first timethat I was like, oh, I can be a
totally different person and I'mokay.
Like I'm okay that I didn'tneed the safety net of my family
(14:17):
to be okay in the world andactually I could thrive in a
different place that no one, meincluded, knew where it was on
the map before that.
Yeah, I think that was thefirst time and of course it
sparked a wanderlust and atravel bug from there, but it
was the first time that I couldtrust myself to stand on my own
(14:38):
feet.
Yeah, it's so funny because,looking back, I don't remember
being particularly scared, whichis like I must have been in the
moment.
But when I think about that trip, I think about the turn up.
Like I missed that girl.
I was the turn up girl.
So when I think of a memory, Ithink about Budapest.
They have these spa parties.
(14:59):
So there's these like ancientbass from the 1500s where they
would have DJs and like hundredsof people are just in the spa
bass and they party until like6am.
So I remember like going tothose spa parties.
We would like be walking homeat 5am for class at 9am.
Like the turn up is what Iremember.
(15:21):
When I think about that time,like I was just like out there,
free and living.
I was like, okay, we outsideoutside I was like I'm convinced
black people, white people,party differently because, like
child, the things that happened.
I was like, oh, that's what Ithink about.
I just think about like havingfun and like we would just walk
(15:43):
around.
Like like I don't speakRomanian, but like I would just
go around and figure it out.
I'd meet a random person and belike, oh, let's go to lunch
together and we'd go to lunchand I didn't know this stranger
before and I was like that's notthe person I am at home.
So I think those are what Ithink about of like I just
leaned into it and I had thistrust that folks have my best
interest at heart, like and I'mhere to explore and to learn and
(16:09):
to connect with people, andlike that's what I did.
I experienced every bit of ittopped the bottom.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I remember an anniversary my spouse and I
celebrated during the lockdownportion of the pandemic.
He ordered food from a fancyrestaurant, we had a date night
activity box from a subscriptionservice and our daughter was
the evening's entertainment witha very cute and very funny
magic and comedy routine she'dbeen practicing.
As I was attempting to getdressed up for once, trading my
(16:43):
daily sweatpants and t-shirtsfor something more appropriate,
I became overwhelmed withanxiety and, just understandably
, the entire world wascollectively losing it.
But, all things considered, inmy personal circumstances, I was
blindsided by this mix ofexcitement for an evening of
(17:07):
levity, right alongside mydesire to just put my sweats
back on, cancel the evening andgo to bed.
But I had the privilege in thatmoment to take a beat, say a
prayer and announce out loud tomyself standing in the mirror in
my bedroom Anxiety, I see thatyou're in the car with me, but
(17:29):
you can't drive.
Did my anxious thoughts andfeelings disappear?
Not really.
Did I somehow cure myself ofall future anxiety?
Absolutely not.
But it unlocked this newperspective that I had some
level of agency over my will andover my perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I feel like a part of it is like acknowledging the
anxiety that it's there, thefear that it's there because it
is real, pretending that it'snot, isn't that?
But just knowing that you havemore choice than it feels like.
So when I'm in not an anxietyattack, but when I'm in anxious
moment, it feels likeeverything's narrow, there's no
(18:12):
choice, it's just going to drivethis thing.
But taking that positiveacknowledgement allows you to
say I have some choice, I couldgive into that and that's a
choice.
And sometimes that's just thechoice because it just is too
overwhelming.
But sometimes there are otherchoices, like is there a moment
of breath?
Is there a moment of tapping?
(18:32):
Is there just a moment of pausebetween what you're feeling and
how you're responding?
I'm the most scaredy cat personin the world.
Like people are like oh, you'reso brave because you're all
over the world.
I'm not brave.
I wouldn't say I'm brave.
I just think I allow my fear tosit alongside me and I think
(18:56):
I'm more curious than I'mfearful and I know that I trust
myself enough to know that I canget through whatever.
Like most scenarios, I canfigure it out.
I'm going to cry first.
I am going to cry and then I'mgoing to figure it out.
And so I've had enough examplesof that where I can trust
(19:16):
myself to move beyond the fear,like because I know I'm equipped
, like I've seen myself navigateenough that I'm like okay,
whatever comes good, bad orotherwise like I can move
through it.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Jalisa and I met through a very different work
for a large church.
She was working on thephilanthropy side of things and
I in music.
We've since both left theseroles and this organization.
I won't go into details of ourseparate departures, but I will
echo the sentiment that I'veheard from folks in the
nonprofit world.
The culture and demands ofnonprofit work are sometimes at
(19:54):
the cost of one'sself-preservation.
I asked Jalisa to tell me abouther departure from the
nonprofit philanthropy world.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
When I saw this question I was like I felt a
palpable, like something notgood where I was just like I
just feel emotional about it.
I think that part's still raw.
I think I stumbled intophilanthropy but I feel like I
stumble into everything.
There's like not intentionalityuntil I story tell it in
(20:27):
retrospect.
But I came into philanthropy.
I went to get my masters at theUniversity of Maryland and they
had a new specialization at thetime which was nonprofit
management and leadership.
There were these classes inphilanthropy and I had never
heard of philanthropy before.
I had worked in nonprofit work.
So in undergrad I didAmeriCorps, we did Jumpstart,
(20:51):
america Reads.
So I already had the beliefthat I was going to change the
world and that's why I came toDC.
And so in undergrad, to gobackwards, did Jumpstart, did
America Reads, and then therewas a study abroad program.
So the second time I wentabroad was not abroad, it was in
DC.
(21:11):
So my focus was in undergrad.
My majors were public policy andsociology, and so coming to DC
where like laws were made wasdefinitely like oh, I have to
come there.
And not only did I come for thepolicy part, but I was like a
place where black people are themajority.
It was Chocolate City back thenwhich is dating me because it's
(21:33):
not been Chocolate City in insome time but coming to a place
where, like, not only were blackpeople the majority, but they
were empowered.
And I didn't grow up in a placewhere black people felt
empowered.
It felt like things happened tous, not that we could have an
impact on things.
So coming to DC blew my worldopen and people come here to
(21:55):
change the world.
So that energy of being like anintern in the city and all the
ways that you can make an impactI was already very interested
in that.
So when I went to get mymaster's in public policy and
they had this focus on nonprofitmanagement and leadership, I
was very interested in thesector.
But then there was theseclasses in philanthropy and I
was like what, you can givemoney away as a job.
Okay, I'm going to do that.
(22:16):
Like that sounds really amazing.
And through that program we gotconnected to different
foundations that we can work at,and I worked at.
The Greater WashingtonCommunity Foundation was where
my internship was and I wouldjust loved the ability to have
an impact on the other side ofit, where it was like we have
(22:37):
this abundance and how do we usethis abundance to support the
well-being of our community?
So I was really, reallyintrigued by that, and so I
worked in the sector indifferent ways for over a decade
.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
I asked Jalisa if, after a more than decade-long
career, would she considerreturning to philanthropy.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Not in the season.
I think there's a lot of likeharm I have to work through.
I think working in thenonprofit sector, more largely
where philanthropy sits in, isnot for the faint of heart.
I think especially working init during the pandemic was
really tough for me.
I lost seven, eight familymembers in like a two-year span,
(23:22):
and I was also the director ata nonprofit Building.
Something, while you'remourning, is an experience that
I was not prepared for, and Icried every single day for over
a year and the feeling that Iwas a failure because I couldn't
do it like I couldn't.
(23:44):
That reservoir that previouslyI could draw from was empty and
so for that reason, I had towalk away from the sector.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Prior to the pandemic and right before what would
become Jalisa's last role inphilanthropy, she was doing some
consulting work for anotherinstitution.
Jalisa was leading the effortfor a small foundation within a
church.
This foundation distributedgrant funding to community
organizations.
A few years before Jalisabecame the program director for
(24:23):
this fund, there had been a verypublic and painful departure of
a black leader from the church.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
That job came on the heels of some consulting work
that I did at a small foundationof sorts inside like a
progressive church, and the workthat I did there was really
cool, like creating the systemsand processes to give money into
communities in ways that had areally local impact.
(24:52):
So building from the ground upwas really exciting.
But it being a very like whitespace, they didn't have the
skills and capacities to holdthe values that they espoused.
So they wanted to be veryanti-racist and they wanted to
(25:13):
focus on racial justice and Ithink the intentions and values
were there but they the internalsystems and processes and
skills hadn't caught up to thatdesire.
When I came on this fund astheir first program officer, I
was also their first black womanprogram officer and this is on
the heels of.
(25:33):
In the wider church where thisfund was sitting, there was a
black woman minister who hadbeen fired recently, and so when
I was going into meetings tomeet with grantees they were
like, oh, didn't y'all just gothrough some drama around like
firing a black woman, likewhat's going on there?
And so like I had to be themouthpiece for this larger like
(25:54):
harm that people had been awareof that was happening.
And then, shortly after mecoming on there, there's the
first black woman, ed of theorganization.
So there's these like pockettoken black women that they were
trying to signal that they'reprogressive, but there was no
support or skill for how do youcreate a safety net around these
(26:18):
women.
So it was just like you're outthere trying to be the only one
and there's like and the amountof harm that was happening, the
amount of emails I would getevery week with somebody being
like oh, I know, I'm likeprobably racist, so can we just
have a coffee conversation whereyou can teach me to be anti
racist?
Like what does this have to dowith my job title?
Like I don't understand, and itwould never be so many.
(26:39):
At least twice a week therewould be somebody being like can
we get coffee where you canjust like tell me how to be less
harmful?
Like what is going on?
Like that's why I was like Iwill never be the first or the
only again in any situation.
Like a lot of people see thatas like this is an exciting
signal of something good to come, but I'm very fearful for black
(27:02):
women in particular when you'rethe first or the only in a
space, because I think about allof the unspoken harm that you
have to carry while you're alsotrying to do the job that you
were brought in to do.
There was like a grantee meetingthat we held, and this was the
(27:23):
first set of grantees that wasover 75% people of color.
Most of those women led, some ofthose trans women led, and so
it was just a very differentdocket of nonprofits that we
were supporting which peoplewere really excited about.
But I think at the moment wedidn't have the space for how
people should show up and there,and so one of our grantees was
(27:47):
a black trans woman and she wastalking about how, yes, I'm
grateful for this grant, butdon't feel like this absolves
you of something or that youshould pat yourself on the back
and that you're this isn't likelife changing work.
Like, yes, I'm thankful, butlike I'm still a black trans
woman in a very violent city andmy experience is not absolved
(28:07):
off of like $10,000 grant, andthat really rubs some people the
wrong way.
And there was one woman inparticular who, like, was very
combative with the grantee andthen the grantee was having a
conversation with her that shedidn't have the internal space
to hold until she left.
But after she said the granteeattacked her and she really like
(28:32):
, she really wanted the granteeto pay, like she really wanted
retribution for what washappening.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Jalisa and her team began to work through the harm
caused by this interactionbetween the grantee and the
woman from the grant panel andquite quickly circumstances
became untenable for Jalisa.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
We held healing circles and things like that.
But that experience was reallyhard because for months she
would email me and be like Ithink you're racist or like you
know you're minimizing whathappened to me and like nothing
was enough.
The healing circles weren'tenough.
We had many meetings with her.
We had one of those likehealing circles where they
(29:15):
brought in these externalfacilitators who did not have
the skills to hold wherereconciliation looks like in
diverse settings, where at theend of it this person starts
crying, says she feels attackedand literally it was like people
.
We had a reconciliation processwith the whole grantee
committee and people were justsharing their experience and it
(29:35):
was we, usi statements, all ofthese ground rules.
People were sharing theirexperiences.
She said she felt attacked andstarted crying and then it
centered her again and it waslike we don't have the skills to
do this, like we really justdon't.
And for months she would likesend me pages of emails three
o'clock in the morning that wasjust telling me how harmful I
(29:57):
was, how harmful the grantee waslike, and I had no support from
the organization.
I would send it to theexecutive director, I would send
it to the board of the churchthat the foundation was held in
and they did nothing and it justI had never felt that scared.
Don't my email?
(30:18):
Like every day I didn't knowwhat was going to be.
The email Like like would shesue me?
Like what was going to happen?
Like then there was just so muchfear on the part of the people
in power in the church, wherethey want to everybody just get
along, so they were like it'llprobably work itself out and
(30:38):
like the lack of support I feltas a black woman, like it really
scarred me and at that sametime one of the members who was
on the grantee committee died.
It was just a lot going on andno support around it, and so I
think that experience going intothen being a director at a
nonprofit, in a pandemic likethose, that four year process
(31:04):
like really really took methrough it and it honestly broke
me.
So that was how I got out ofphilanthropy.
I just I couldn't handle thatlevel of grief and knowing that
we didn't have the systems tohold it.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
After leaving the funding work at the church,
Jalisa took on what would becomeher last role in nonprofit
philanthropy work.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
The sector comes in with these values around, like
we're a family, and this likebuilt-in martyrdom of, like you
expect to be paid low wages andwork long hours because the
people that you're working onbehalf of have it worse than you
.
And so there's this likebuilt-in yeah, kind of martyrdom
(31:57):
to the sector, which worked fora while until the pandemic hit,
the moment that I knew I neededto reboot myself.
Where I was working at thenonprofit, where I was a
director, we had just launchedthe, we were on Zoom, in a
(32:20):
gathering, we would have thesemonthly sessions.
And I'm facilitating thesession and I get a text message
from my mom that my uncle diedand my first thought was, huh, I
wonder how I can keepfacilitating the session and
like what I need to do to notfeel anything in this moment so
(32:42):
I can get through the session.
My first thought wasn't like ohwow, I'm devastated that I lost
one of my favorite uncles.
Like how's my mom doing?
How am I going to get home?
Like it wasn't about the death,it was like how do I numb
myself enough to be theprofessional that I'm expected
to be in this moment?
(33:06):
And that's when I knew somethingwas deeply broken.
Something was really, reallywrong, that the only way I could
see being an effectiveprofessional was to be less
human.
And I feel like that was theturning point where I was like,
(33:28):
oh, I can't, there's no comingback from this because I don't
like the person.
I'm going to be on the otherside of this, like I had lost so
much, and I thought that theissue was I wasn't strong enough
(33:55):
.
Like that, I was the issue.
Nobody should lose seven peoplein that amount of time and
worry about facilitating themeeting.
We're doing work where we'retalking about how do we build
the systems and processes forpeople to live well and
experience well-being.
And I was the least well I hadever been in my life.
(34:18):
Like the disconnect between theworld I wanted to create and my
work and the world I wasexperiencing in my day-to-day
life.
The golf was too big and so,yeah, I knew, if I was going to
be the type of human I wanted tobe in the world, that I
couldn't work like that and theonly way I could see for it was
(34:39):
to leave.
And I won't say I don't want tovillainize like the folks that
were running the organization,like the ED and the COO, or
Black women, and I feel like ifI could have been more
transparent sooner, they wouldhave tried to show up better for
me.
So I don't want to villainizethem, but I think it was modeled
(35:02):
so much the ED was a woman inher intersex or she had come out
of retirement to come take thatposition as the head of the
organization and she had thevery like like Gen X mindset of
like you push through, you goalong to get along like civil
rights era kind of energy, oflike there's nothing too much to
(35:25):
give for the work.
Like she was on one call withCOVID and she was like yeah, I
mean it's fine.
Like she was obviously not fine, but like she had pushed
through.
So there was this like unspokenkind of expectation of like
pushing through and I felt like,oh, it's like a millennial
weakness in me and like that I'mthe problem, like there's
(35:48):
something wrong with me that Ican't push through enough and
that I don't have the sense ofwill enough.
So, like in that moment I justfelt like it was a big personal
feeling.
But I think there's, lookingback, there's a cultural failing
where, like we feel like theonly way to do the work is at
(36:08):
the expense of ourselves.
Is this really all we canimagine?
Like we're trying to imaginethese just worlds but we can't
even imagine a life where we'renot working ourselves through
sickness and we can't enjoy,there's not this sense of
(36:34):
enjoyment being a part of thejourney.
Like is this?
How limited is our imaginationthat we can say these big words
but we can't practice them ineven the smallest ways in our
lives?
It was very disappointing,honestly, to see.
To look ahead, I was this highachieving person and like there
(36:55):
was a pathway that I could havewalked into of continued
nonprofit leadership and Icouldn't imagine wanting that.
And so it was like really thiscrisis of like sense of self.
Like, oh, I had worked to workto, toward this thing that I
(37:15):
thought I wanted, but then thelife I would have with it was
like, oh, there's no way.
Like there's no way I want tobe the person I would have to be
to keep at this pace into excel.
And there was just so fewmodels of women who were in
(37:36):
nonprofit leadership who werewell, like I was talking to my
friends and like they too werequitting.
Like there was this mass exodusfrom the sector where they were
like there's no way Like there,this just is not sustainable to
work in the way that you'reexpected to work and to give up
the things you're expected togive up.
(37:56):
And so the transition out ofthat was really like, yeah, I
felt like survival, like I tooka sabbatical that was originally
supposed to be a three monthand turned into a six month
sabbatical because I was just Iphysically could not work.
Like when I went to startlooking for a consulting client,
I would have panic attacks,like I literally could not do
(38:17):
the work and like how scaredthat made me feel because I had
used so much of my savings.
And like I physically couldn't,like my body could not, and I
was like, girl, you're, you'remaking reports, like what is
going on, but like I physicallywas like so spent I don't want
(38:38):
to say triggered, because peopleuse trigger too much but there
was such a visual reaction likeI could not push through for the
first time in my life and so Ineeded to do something totally
different.
And that's where book trips came, because it was something just
totally different and it wasn'tabout how hard I could push
(39:01):
myself even though I'm still inlearning that but it was like
how can I create spaces wherepeople could connect about the
idea that propel them about thethings that are hard, but you
have a community of people thatyou can talk about them like,
where you can come and be yourauthentic self with other women
and you can be in awe and youcan explore.
(39:23):
And it's not about performing.
It's like the one place thatyou don't have to perform.
You don't have to show up anycertain kind of way to belong
Like.
I wanted to create that becauseit's so much of what I needed
in that moment where I didn'tknow what I had to offer outside
of what I could produce.
I wanted to create a spacewhere other people didn't have
(39:43):
to offer anything.
All they had to do was come.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
In October of 2022, jalisa invited me, along with a
group of dynamic, beautifulwomen, for the lunch dinner of
booked trips.
I remember that was aparticularly difficult time for
me Shout out to seasonaldepression and I almost wanted
to flake on the whole evening.
I'm so glad I didn't.
(40:11):
Jalisa had crafted a 10 courseprivate dining experience based
on the book you Made a Fool ofDeath with your Beauty by Aqueke
Amazing.
She thought of everything Acustom playlist setting the vibe
of the evening and bringing usback to each sumptuous chapter
(40:33):
of the book.
Delicious garden to table foodin a thoughtfully designed home,
a beautifully set table withswag and decor from her favorite
vendors and small businesses.
I was blissed out sittingaround the table, laughing and
bonding with these incrediblewomen, all brought together in
(40:55):
the name of books and by ourphenomenal friend.
I felt sane but, mostimportantly, I felt held, and I
needed that.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Early October October 8th to be specific we
celebrated the one yearanniversary of book trips, so I
brought together some of thealumni of our trips and some
supporters for a 10 course or 10chapter meal with eats and
beats, and we read butter, honey, pig bread, and so the recipes
(41:28):
and meals from the book, as wellas music that was mentioned,
for the book was used to createa really curated dinner
experience, and it was justreally lovely to be celebrated
and to celebrate other people.
So I'm really really interestedin, like, how do we use food as
a conduit for connection, andthat night was just, yeah, the
(41:48):
epitome of what I was lookingfor.
Like the women who came theretogether like felt like they had
found friendship.
The food was so delicious andit was just a chance to
celebrate.
Like I'm looking for ways tocelebrate along the journey.
So entrepreneurship can be very, very difficult.
It has a lot of ups and downs,and so I'm committed to how do I
have joy along the journey, notas this destination that's far
(42:11):
off, but just something that's aregular practice, and so it was
really good to take a pause andlook back at this thing.
That was a dream in my headthat is now a reality.
That's bringing women togetherall around the world and just
yeah, celebrating that.
I had to dig deep because I hadbuilt my identity around being
like a high-performing nonprofitprofessional and like those are
(42:34):
the only skill sets that Ithought I had.
I could do program management,evaluation, facilitation, like
that's what I knew how to do.
I knew how to do it well.
I knew how to perform well inthe nonprofit sector, and so I
think the courage it took toimagine a different path that
(42:56):
was about something totallydifferent.
I think that was a courageoustime of my life.
It's really funny.
One of my friends, akilah she,had taken a screenshot of an
Instagram story I wrote inAugust 2021, where I was like
you know what?
I think I have another careerin me.
I want to merge my loves ofphilanthropy and travel and
(43:18):
books and I want to like bringauthors together and bring
people together to talk abouttheir work.
I don't know what that lookslike, but I'm just putting it
out here so that there'saccountability, and my friend
Akilah had sent me a screenshotthat screenshot of it and like a
couple weeks ago, she was likeyou did it.
Like in two years you did it,and I think the courageousness
(43:40):
to have this further unpolishedidea and like invite other
people to live in your dream.
It's one thing to dream it, butit's another thing to allow
people to experience it and havethoughts about it.
I think the courageousness todo something totally different
that way.
I'm really really proud of that.
(44:04):
It's funny because I'm I used tobe, and in some ways I am, very
type A, but when it comes tobook I don't have a set process,
which is very interesting.
So right now I'm reading theCreative Act by Rick Rubin and
he talks about how creativity islike just kind of being open to
inspiration.
So I think that's my process islike when it comes to came to
(44:27):
that dinner in particular, Iread Bun or Honey Pig Bread and
it was just in love with thestory and how a bucket of the
place was and how you could liketaste the food almost where I
was like no, I need this, likethis plate I needed immediately
and so I just thought, like whatwould living in this book feel
(44:48):
like?
So which of these dishes wouldI want to have together?
Like when I think of some ofthe stories that one of the
characters were telling aboutthe dad.
The way they introduced thefather was his records and I was
like, oh, when I'm thinking ofa playlist, I want to start with
this record, because the loveof this story is really tied
into the relationship with thefather.
And so starting starting there,but then also being like
(45:12):
there's like a chaos about Lagos, nigeria, like how do I, how do
I reflect that in a playlist?
Like what are the transitionslook like, so that you can feel
a little bit of the alivenessbut the chaos that is existing
there.
But then also like reallygrounding it in the warmth.
So I was reading an authorinterview and she talked about
how her grandmother had made hermosa, which was on our menu,
(45:37):
and now that she's older shedoesn't make it anymore, but it
makes her think about herchildhood.
So really grounding this inlike family, because that's what
the book was about.
How do I make this feel likefamily?
How do we have a conversationat the table that grounds us in
our connection to each other?
How do we introduce ourselvesin ways that are not about like
what we do in the world, but we?
The quite the opening questionwas like who are your people
(45:59):
Like?
Who are you with when you feelmost yourself.
So, starting with that sense oflike who am I in the way I
define it Now, how the externalworld defines it, but how I'm
feeling in this moment, what'scoming to the top that I want
you to know about me, for us tohave this conversation and this
meal together?
So, yeah, I think that's kindof my process, like how do I
want people to feel, how did Ifeel reading it and how do I
(46:21):
want to translate that to others?
What would be the mostconducive to people feeling like
they belong here, that they'reexcited, that they're connected?
And larger booked experiences.
I think it's just being verypresent out in the world.
So I'll read a book where theplace is very central to it.
I'll think about the food ofthat place, the culture of that
place, but then I let it sit fora while, like I make
(46:45):
itineraries a year in advance,but then I just allow myself to
be inspired.
There'll be a podcast I listento, an article I read or a walk
in nature that'll bring someform of inspiration, that it'll
be a thread that you would havenever thought of, but now that
you're open to it, you see allthese things are talking to each
other.
So, for example, we're going toMexico City and so of course
(47:09):
Mexico City is a foodie city.
So there's that piece in thebook that we're reading is about
a woman who's a bigamist.
So she has a husband in LaredoTexas and she has a husband in
Mexico City, and it's not aspoiler to say that a murder
happens, and so it's like veryspicy.
It's about like what's hiddenunderneath the surface.
It's about what women areallowed to desire.
(47:31):
What does it look like to be anon-traditional woman and not be
apologetic about those things?
And so there was a story I wastelling that was very much about
Mexico City.
There's the Frito-Cala angleabout like a non-traditional
woman, like there's these thingsthat you would guess.
But then I happened to bestumbling upon an archive and I
was reading Audre Lorde Sammy, anew spelling of my name, and
(47:54):
she talks about studying at UNAM, a university in Mexico City,
and then she talks about how heridentity as a black feminist
warrior poet was reallysolidified in her time in Mexico
City.
And then it got me down therabbit hole of reading her work
(48:15):
around the erotic and aroundpleasure.
And then that felt connectedand I was like, wow, there's all
these threads that I would have, like I wasn't thinking about
those things.
So I think it's very muchhaving a frame, but allowing
myself to be surprised in an aweis my process.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
I'm proud of my friend.
I'm inspired by her journey.
I want for her what I want forall of the people I love A deep,
abiding peace and contentmentpleasure, even in their life and
their circumstances.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
I think I have a kind of a strong relationship with
pleasure.
Like I'm always thinking about,like what is the most enjoyable
experience I can have right now.
And I think that's new, becauseI used to be like long
suffering, like girl.
Why?
Like I always felt like I hadto work the hardest, stay the
longest, need the least, like Ithought that was something
(49:14):
admirable about me for myself tobe as small as possible so that
other folks could take up thespace, but it led me to a lot of
burnout.
And so now my relationship withpleasure, it's something that
intentionality what would I want, what do I want to feel, what
do I want to experience in thismoment?
And how do I give myself that?
And allowing myself to just doit.
(49:35):
Like, for example, later todayI'm taking an impromptu trip to
Brussels because Mansour Brown,this musician that I love, is
playing in Brussels and I can dothat because I want to, and so
like doing that.
And there's a friend that'sthere for a trip with the UN,
and so I'll also get to see afriend.
So it's like just being veryopen to this might not be the
(49:56):
most practical thing in theworld, but why not when I'm
working, like knowing when isenough.
I think that's pleasurable tosay.
You know what, today I havedone enough and I want to have a
dance party in my living roomand I'm going to do that.
It's eating good food, likereally being present for like
the deliciousness of food andlike giving myself that.
(50:19):
So I think for me, pleasure isabout like really tuning into
what I want and desire and likegiving myself that, not in a
hedonistic way, but in a way oflike knowing that I deserve that
.
There's not something bad aboutwanting certain things and
feeling things really deeply.
When I think of the small towngirl.
I grew up in a place where thepopulation is like I don't know.
(50:42):
I think it's definitely lessthan 30,000 people.
It's a very, very small townand like I couldn't imagine
myself going to, like living ina different part of upstate New
York.
Like I went to undergrad in thetown that I lived in.
So from that to living a lifewhere I can like, without much
thought, like just have toexperience in a different
(51:04):
country and feel comfortabledoing that, I've solo traveled
to over 20 countries.
Like I'm just so different fromthe person that I could have
imagined I was scared ofeverything as a kid Like, so
scared of everything, veryinsular, just scared.
And now it's not that I'm notscared, but I don't use that
fear as like a decider of how Ilive my life.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Deep gratitude to Jalisa for her time and her
stories.
The Tell Her this podcast wascreated by Rachelle Rice with
support from DC Commission onthe Arts and Humanities.
To support this podcast, pleaseclick the link in the show
notes or visit bymeacoffeecom.
Forward slash.
Tell her this For more.
(51:47):
Tell Her this content.
Please visittellherthespodcastcom and follow
on social media at Tell Herthis podcast.
Please share this episode witha friend and leave a rating or
review.
This episode includes music byMaya Rogers.
You can find out more aboutMaya and her latest project,
(52:07):
orion and the Remembering Tree,through the links in the show
notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Booked Trips, please visit
bookedtripscom.
Editing and Sound Design byRachelle Rice, mixing and
Editing by Ray Jallow, and I'myour host, rachelle Rice, and
you can find me at Rachelle RiceMusic across all social
(52:31):
platforms.
Until next time, be true and bewell.
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