#241 - Aaron Brown: The Timeless Medium of Film Photography. - Terrible. Happy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, it's Shan here.
This week I catch up with thecharismatic and passionate Mr
Aaron Brown.
Aaron is a prolificphotographer and through the 90s
he took a bunch of skate photos.
In fact there was a period oftime there where you couldn't
open up an Australianskateboarding magazine and not
see a photo from Aaron.

(00:42):
He also shot probably a dozencovers, took photos of literally
the best to do it of that eraand I always liked his
perspective and the angles thathe took.
They're a little bit non-traditional and he was just
pushing the boundaries.
These days he's working on morecreative projects outside of
skateboarding and he sits downwith myself and this week's

(01:03):
guest co-host, mr Jim Turvey,and just takes us on a journey
through his life so far which isvery tied into the Sydney skate
scene.
Aaron is somewhat of acharacter.
He's passionate, he's engaging,maybe a little bit eccentric
I'll let you be the judge ofthat but all around he's just a

(01:25):
kind-hearted soul who Ithoroughly enjoyed spending time
with.
You know these podcasts we sitdown for hours at a time talking
and it's really hard toencompass someone's whole
personality in that time anddocument their whole life story,
but we get a pretty goodperspective on this one.
Aaron starts to really relax aswe get into the second half of

(01:45):
it and we have some pretty funnymoments as well.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
So sit back, relax and get to know Mr Aaron Brown.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
I'm more interested in other areas of photography,
not just skateboarding as such,but the skateboarding background
is part of everything that Ishoot.
Now, what do you mean?
It just depends like myphotography style, I guess, and

(02:35):
kind of like to this day, likemy favourite photographers are
still the skateboardingphotographers, like Daniel
Harold Sturt, there's peoplelike O'Me Lee, Dave Chamey and
then Grant Britton, and so howcan I say this?

(02:57):
So being interested in theirphotography kind of led to the
development of my ownphotography and their
photography kind of led to thedevelopment of my own
photography.
And then what I've done sincethen, like yeah, I guess the
skateboarding influence is, yeah, underpins that.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Underpins it in regards to your style.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, I'd say so, and the way I look at things as
well.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, sorry, shane, do you find it way easier now
that it's digital?
Like, are you still in amindset of I'm shooting on film
and I've got to get this in afew shots?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yes, I kind of am Like, if I'm doing like my own
projects, I still use filmcameras, so I do only shoot like
within a few frames, but moreof that's kind of like film
expenditure or something likethat.
Um, when I use my digitalcamera, like if I have like like
a photo job, like I don't dotoo many of those, but when I do
do one I shoot heaps of photos.

(03:55):
I don't know why, like a lackof confidence in kind of using
digital cameras, like since youcan preview it instant,
instantly.
Like I think, like I'm my, Ihold more skill, if I, if I, if
I'm blinded by the results andwell.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Has it actually developed your process or has it
hindered your development as aphotographer?

Speaker 3 (04:18):
yeah, I think, like I've, I've became clumsy with my
exposures when I'd be usingdigital cameras, especially like
if I'm like shooting like withavailable light, like not using
flashes and things like that.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Like too relaxed.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Just like I don't know.
Just sort of I had such a goodunderstanding of like the
metering of light with filmphotography and then when the
first generation of the digitalcameras came out, it wasn't so
much like the metering of lightwith film photography.
And then when the firstgeneration of the digital
cameras came out, it wasn't somuch like the metering systems
in the cameras weren't accurate,but it was just the way that
the cameras were reproducinglike the imagery it didn't have

(04:56):
like the depth and tonal, likevalues of like film photography.
And then I'd bring that intoquestion with my exposures and
I'm still like that today, eventhough the camera sensors and
things like that have moved on along way.
Digital cameras are pretty good, but yeah, but I don't have
that like a yeah, so I feel alot more confident with a film

(05:18):
camera.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Interesting eh yeah, listen, and I want to delve deep
into your photography journeyand I've got legendary Jim
Turvey with us today and evenbefore we started, you know,
you've brought some of your oldphotos over and your clippings
from newspapers and like so muchhistory, and it's like I just
really got this sense of like.
You know this could be a reallylong night, because then it's

(05:41):
sparking Jim's memory and hisknowledge and watching you two
bounce off each other is prettymagic.
But before I get into thatstuff, I've got this memory of
you, man.
I was watching TV one nightback in the 90s.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
I know what you're going to bring up here.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
I want to start with this because it's such a trippy
story and it was like a realityTV show, like RPA emergency ward
stuff and I'm watching it andsome guy comes into the
emergency ward with an earcomplaint and then they flush
this person's ear out and therewas like two massive cockroaches
in his ear.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
And that person was you, yes, so tell us man, that's
pretty funny, hey what?

Speaker 2 (06:23):
happened with that?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
So how's this?
Like I was at, so that was in,like that was the beginning of
1997, I remember, because I wasat university at the time.
So I was living.
I'd only, like I'd only movedout of home, like properly, like
the year before Maybe, but I'dbeen living in Darlington and we
just moved into a new unit InPetersham.

(06:44):
Like it wasn't new, it was likea 1960s job or whatever.
It seemed pretty clean on theinside or whatever, but I'd only
been living there for a fewnights or whatever.
And I woke up in the eveningand there was just this rustling
on my eardrum, rustling kind ofon my eardrum, so that rustling

(07:06):
, like you can put up with itfor like maybe like 20 seconds,
but you know, like put up withit for some minutes, 10 minutes,
going into like an hour itwould drive you.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
yeah, Did you hear something scratching in your ear
?
Were you in pain?

Speaker 3 (07:25):
Not in pain, but it's just the noise and the echoing
and the vibrations in your ear.
It would drive you insane, I'dimagine.
So what?

Speaker 2 (07:31):
happened.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
So, yeah, I went.
So I had to go.
I can't remember it would havebeen in the evening, no, it
would have been in the daytime.
So I lived above a doctor'ssurgery, so it was, like you
know, like a doctor's surgerybeneath the apartment or
whatever.
I think I must have gone downthere from memory.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
Oh sorry, jim were you living with other
skateboarders?

Speaker 3 (07:56):
no, no, I was in.
This guy called sean russell atthat time, yeah and um, yeah,
they probably like, looked at itand couldn't, didn't have the
equipment to flush it out, sothey sent me the RPA and then so
I rocked in RPA.
I just want to get cockroachout of my ear because it's
driving me around the twist, soyou knew it was a cockroach.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
You just guessed.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
Yeah, I had a pretty good idea.
It was a cockroach, it was oneof those little brown German
ones.
Yeah, of those little browngerman ones.
Yeah and um.
So I go to rpa and then there'slike they're filming for like
the reality tv show there, andthey're I don't know like.
The producers come up to mejust super psyched and I I'm
like, yeah, whatever, I reallydon't care, you can film

(08:40):
whatever you want.
I was going through one ofthose little, I think, like a
free-spirited phase.
You know like, yeah, there's nohidden truth.
So, yeah, they filmed like theflushing of my ear, and then
they even do little things, likeas you're leaving the hospital,
can you like scratch your ear?

(09:01):
That type of thing.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Like they wanted you to like.
Ham it up for the camera ham itup for the camera, yeah, yeah,
and then like the next natural

Speaker 3 (09:11):
so how's this?
I'll go to university.
That like I'm I don't know likethe next day or whatever.
And like I'm in this, I'm likesome pretty much like I was
doing this clinical.
I was doing like clinicalpsychology.
That's why I started university.
So basically it was like man,there was only me and like a
bunch of girls like that wasback in the 90s that were

(09:32):
becoming psychologists orwhatever.
So like all the girls that Iwas in the course with, they
were all kind of you know, girlscan be amongst each other when
they know something aboutsomeone, but they're not saying
anything and you're justthinking there's something going
on here.
But like what is it?
Because I didn't even have atelevision either.
Hang on.
So hang on, I'm getting thisstory mixed up a little bit.
So I was on TV like maybe amonth later or whatever.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
Yeah, so it's after it went to air.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yeah, yeah, and I rocked in the university so I
didn't even know I was going tobe on television and like, and
also like people wererecognizing me, just in general,
like, did you get paid?
No, I didn't get paid.
They sent me like a, like achannel nine cap or whatever, so

(10:20):
they got your details.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
So I went to air and then whatyou got?
Like fame.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
And you know, the funny thing is with this is
people knew, like people wererecognizing you People
recognized me.
Oh shit, oh shit.
And even like I went some, Ieven went somewhere and people
went, oh, and they were talkingabout it, like, oh, did you see
on RPA, like that guy with thecockroaches in his ear?
I don't know if they knew itwas me and they were like doing
that in the conversation, but Idon't think they did.

Speaker 4 (10:49):
Did you keep the cockroaches when they got them
out?

Speaker 3 (10:52):
No, I think my mum recorded it, but I've never
watched it.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Well, I think Jim went looking for the footage
because Jim's, you know, went ona deep research.
Did you find it?

Speaker 4 (11:02):
No, I couldn't find it.
I spent about three hours theother night trying to find the
footage.
Yeah, I think we've got it.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, and everyone saw it Like.
Everyone saw it Like it wasinteresting.

Speaker 4 (11:11):
Like the kind of Sydney skate scene.
At the time saw it.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, and family saw it, Everyone at university saw
it, just like everyone saw it.

Speaker 4 (11:25):
Like everyone was watching Back in.
Yeah, it's super interesting.
You know and this is just veryquick I had a Christmas beetle
in my ear for two years, ohreally, and I didn't know that
you'd had the cockroach in yourear.
And when Shan told me, I spunout and I was like maybe that's
why we get along so well,because we both had the bug ear
experience.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
So you had like a Christmas beetle is probably
about the same size as thecockroach that was in like size,
but I guess I had two.
You had two of them there.

Speaker 4 (11:48):
Yeah, and mine died in there pretty quickly because
I think when I went to thehospital they couldn't.
It had aggravated my eardrumand it had bled and it was
behind because I was only alittle kid and so it must have
been behind kind of in asarcophagus of blood and so they
must have been behind kind ofin a sarcophagus of blood and so
they couldn't really see itwhen it was in there.
And I think they thought I hadan ear infection and I would go

(12:10):
to the doctors regularly to getmy ear flushed.
And when we moved to Newcastlethe new doctor that we saw up
here flushed it and a little legcame out and he was like oh,
and he ran a hose from the sinkin his surgery into my ear and
slowly flushed it all out.
And the reason I asked if youkept yours is because I you kept
your.
He put in a little urine samplecontainer and I took it to show

(12:34):
and tell at school the next day.
That's rad yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Why did you choose psychology at uni originally?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (12:42):
that's a good question, shannon.
Uni originally yes, that's agood question, shannon.
Um, so basically, like I didn'treally know what I wanted to do
at university.
All I knew was I wanted to goto university like and that sort
of yeah, there's another thingbehind that as well.
But, um, so I either wanted to,like I wanted to do either like

(13:05):
visual arts or some likejournalism type course, like a
communications course.
So I applied for like aBachelor of Visual Arts and then
General Bachelor of Arts andgot into Bachelor of Arts.
I went to it was the Universityof Western Sydney, so it was

(13:27):
like a brand new university atthe time.
This would have been like itwas probably like 1993, I think
it was and yeah, sort of a major.
Like I didn't really know whatI wanted to do, so I did, like
you pick like four units, like Idid psychology, communications,
computers, maybe creativewriting or something like that,
I can't.
Well, yeah, it was those fourand I ended up like so I just

(13:51):
excelled like at psychology,like for some reason, kind of,
and then I ended up doing adouble major and then did my
honors in it.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
So yeah, wow, yeah, but never pursued it I did like
that as an actual profession.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, so I started doing my master's like, and then
so that would have been aroundthe time that I had the
cockroach in my ear, and thatwas that period when I was
living in Petersham.
And so I did my fifth year,which is like it's really hard,
like it's a solid fifth yearclinical psychology.
And then, yeah, and I was kindof like I was working, I was, I

(14:31):
was working as a skate, like askate photographer, I had a job
as a cleaner and I'm doing likea full-time master's course and
my and things just started tolike fall apart, the seams like,
so to speak.
So that year, my, my fifth yearof my master's like all- my
camera gear got stolen.
I don't know.
Do you vaguely remember?

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Was that a stolen car ?
It was in a car, no.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
No, like someone like climbed up I think they might
have climbed up the balcony,like where I lived in that unit
in Petersham so I had like, yeah, like on my camera gear and
then so I remember that happenedand then, yeah, I ended up.
So, long story short, I just got, I failed my professional
practice in my sixth year andthen just got kicked out of uni,

(15:16):
basically and just did you justdecide to let it go because you
were like well yeah, they sortof did like the psychologists
were like they kind of knew thatit's funny, like not that that
means anything, really like whenyou've been through these
courses and things like that,like you think, oh, there's some
sort of measure of you knowworth and they can tell me

(15:38):
exactly what I am in life.
But they were the writing waslike I was already working, more
or less had the job as aphotographer.
They're like you just just goout and work as a photographer,
you don't.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, Were you.
Were you feeling disinterestedin the stuff at uni and just
really excited about the skatephotography stuff?

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Yeah, yeah, that was making up your mind.
Yeah, because, like at the timewhen I was of embarking on a
career, really didn't know whatI was, wasn't really interested
in it.
Basically, why did?

Speaker 2 (16:12):
you go to uni in the first place.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Is there a story there?
Was there like family pressure?

Speaker 3 (16:18):
No, it's more the opposite, like kind of like
feeling like so.
Like when I left school,thinking, okay, like, like, so
this is the early 90s, right,like I left, I finished, I did
my HSC, like in 19, 1990, right,um.
So there was kind of that waslike a you know, like recession

(16:40):
era, like it was, um.
But I think like I just had asort of like my sense of worth.
I felt like, you know, like Iwanted to be more in life and
didn't want to sort of just worklike like in a, like I had a
job working in coals, like whenI was in high school and then my
first year out of school,things like that.
But I kind of wanted to be amore professional person or

(17:01):
something like that, just wantedto sort of like achieve
something a little bit more inlife and felt that university
was probably like the way to dothat and also felt that it would
just increase my esteem as aperson.
I don't know if any of that did, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
You're thinking of the right table here, because,
Jim, you felt the same, didn'tyou?
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (17:19):
I mean, I did want to go and study.
You know, I did a Bachelor ofArts measuring, english and
creative writing.
I wanted to study that and Iwanted to be exposed to other
people who are interested inthat kind of thing.
But I also think there was kindof some kind of like I don't
know prestige attached to goingto university.
Not that I necessarily believein that now.
It was more about being, it wasmore about a confidence thing

(17:42):
for myself.
I think if I thought I couldcomplete the course, it wasn't
about what the course would getme, it was about kind of my own
self-worth.
And I don't necessarily believein that now, but I do think and
looking back on it, I learnt somuch from what I from even just
being at university and beingaround like-minded people.
Not necessarily the coursework,and I am a believer in tertiary

(18:06):
education If you think it's foryou.
I don't put a lot of worth inpeople going oh, so-and-so did
this, he's smarter than you.
I don't believe in that kind ofthing.
But I do think, obviously likeI don't think I would be sitting
here with you two tonight doingthat I think it gave me the
skills that I use almost everyday yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, I totally agree with what you just said, jim.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah yeah, I think a big thing is um those
immeasurable skills of likeproblem solving, analyzing, and
probably developed your writingindirectly absolutely just even
writing essays even yeah, it'spractice, you know it's.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
It's the same as doing skateboarding tricks.
Writing is is just practicemakes perfect, it's.
You know, it's the same asdoing skateboarding tricks.
Writing is just practice makesperfect.
It's just you get consistent atdoing something if you do it
over and over and over again anduniversity is a great place to
go and do that where somebodythat knows what they're talking
about will actually look at thatwriting and tell you whether or
not you know it's valuable.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
It's funny because you did like your creative
writing is, aren't you, jim?
Whereas I'm like morepsychology.
But writing is so integral topsychology and it's in the
academic sort of.
You know, referencing andcitation.
Yeah right, you know, like youcan't just sort of, you always
got to attribute credit to.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Did you find satisfaction in that?
Yeah, I loved it.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
I loved crafting up like those psychology reports
and essays and things like thatand like, just as Jim was just
saying, it was that sense ofyeah, learning, learning, yeah,
learning to write and learningto write really well.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
The critical thinking that is if, look, I as much as
I said, I don't think tertiaryeducation is for everybody.
A lot of people you know, someof the smartest people I know,
were completely autodidactic,completely taught themselves
everything.
They know, Autodidactic, but Ido think, especially in this day
and age, critical thinking isreally, really important and I
think even I think it should betaught at school.
The ability to like analyzeinformation successfully and

(20:04):
break it down critically anddiscuss it like with people
without arguing yeah and lookingat the sources of information,
now more than ever, is reallyimportant, I think.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, it's true.
Yeah, yeah, Okay, it's fine.
Well, you're a teacher.
You're so polite, aaron, what?
You have the right to talk overus.
You're the guest tonight, sodon't be so polite.
When you want to talk, you go.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah, no, it's interesting because you're a
teacher, Shannon, and I guess,like you were just saying Jim
about, like now I've got toframe your words.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
But yeah, what's a?

Speaker 3 (20:47):
didactic, to be able to sort of, you know, to think
independently, and I'm justsourcing information as well,
credible information, yeah, howdo you?

Speaker 2 (21:02):
what do you think about that, shannon, like in
regards to like education andthe way sort of yeah well,
you've got to remember, though,we're from a different
generation, and you have toalways try to put yourself in
the shoes of the next generation.
Think about it, you know, andwe always used to criticize
older people for notunderstanding us, and so I'm
always very conscious of notdoing that to the younger people

(21:22):
.
Yes, and you're dealing withthe generation that were born
with, with access to information, that we never had phones.
They were born with phones intheir hand, effectively, and
searching things up, just likethat, so their skills are so
different, like their skills are.
They know that they can rely onum it's, it's how they're

(21:44):
utilizing technology or notutilizing technology, as opposed
to their ability to thinkcritically.
It's really hard to quantify,actually, like I've really
analyzed it, yeah, but I thinkthat, ultimately, I feel like
the critical thinking skills aregetting progressively worse,
yeah wow.
Because of the oversaturation ofinformation.

Speaker 4 (22:07):
Like a symbiotic relationship with like
information or their phones,almost so they rely on that as
almost like a second brainalmost.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Well, that's it.
They're just defaulting to itand, let's face it, we do it too
, Like I don't know how manytimes you go.
Oh, I'm just going to search itup.
Oh yeah.
You know, as opposed to like,actually, before I search it,
search it up, which is not a badthing necessarily, maybe give
it a little bit more thought.
You know like delay thatprocess, you know, and then
search up more accurately.

(22:39):
You know, and then, starting todevise, you know where exactly
your sources of information arecoming from and how reliable
they are, as opposed to you do asearch on any most search
engines, like Wikipedia, is oneof the first things to come up.
So it's like is that the mostreliable source of information?
And it's like teaching youngpeople how to actually, you know

(23:00):
, decide what is creditable andwhat isn't.
I don't know, yeah, anyway, butlook, yeah, is creditable and
what isn't.
I don't know, yeah, anyway, butlook, yeah, what do you got?
I mean, I don't know.
It's a really big discussion,that one.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
I just wanted to ask Aaron something maybe completely
different Go dude as long asit's cockroach related.
It's not cockroach related, butcan we just for me personally
even I just want to hear thisand I've asked you in person,
but I know you.
So you started skating in theum, like the balkan hills area
is that correct.

(23:32):
Yeah, and you're around likedave rocks and like sin michael
davidson and stuff.
Do you want to?
Can you just give me like abrief overview or as in-depth as
you want?
Actually, how come everybodythat comes from like the
Balcombe Hills like area allbecame somebody like is Kerry
Fisher from out there?

Speaker 3 (23:50):
too.
Yeah, he's from Cherrybrook.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
How come everybody from out there in that area in
the late 80s and the 90s becamea famous skateboarder or a
famous skateboardingphotographer?
What is in the water out there?
Can you just like give us a bitof a history lesson?

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yeah, there's something out there like in the
water out there.
Can you just like give us a bitof a history lesson?
Yeah, there's something outthere like in the water, like,
so to speak.
Like I think so we all like.
So I grew up in Castle Hill so Imoved there in 1980 and
probably like so I was like Iwas just, you know, like seven

(24:26):
years of age or whatever it wasback then and Davo, like he
lived like up the road, likemaybe like half a K up the road
from me, like he lived with his,like his mum and his
grandparents.
They all lived on the same roadand I sort of met.

(24:46):
So I kind of met Davo likeMichael Davidson, like when I
was a kid Like I would have beenlike 10 or 11, maybe I don't
even think I was in high schoolwhen I met him and Tamara, his
sister.
I also went to Cubs at thissame age, right.
So I was like and I went toCubs with Hank Scott and his
brothers, glenn Scott they'relike Borko through and through

(25:15):
and then there was noskateboarding like at this point
, but yeah, we were all from thesame area.
And then when I started highschool, we all started
skateboarding.
I went to high school withGlenn Scott, matthew Warner,
like Wally so, and our friendswith other people from the

(25:38):
Borkham Hills area, like JeffBennett, russell, freckles,
freckles, yeah, there would beDavid Rocks, chris Tudor, there
was Paul Savos.
He was even then we sort ofyeah, but Paul Savos is going
into the Parramatta area now.

(25:59):
But people like Roxy were.
I think he was from North Mead.
Yeah, yeah, it was just yeah,keep going, keep going.
Yeah, it's remarkable when Ikind of like think back, because
we all just stayed tight withskateboarding and there was

(26:23):
Kerry Fisher as well, as wealready mentioned, from
Cherrybrook.
But I think, like Glenn Scottand Hank Scott were kind of like
they really they kind ofbrought cohesion together with
everyone and created kind oflike a scene.
This is particularly whenskateboarding started to die out
as well.

(26:43):
We're going into like late 80s,early 90s now.
So Glenn and, yeah, the Scott-family.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
You think that was just like driving their
progression.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Definitely Like Glenn Scott, like Glenn and Hank,
they were kind of like Davo'scoach, you know what I mean.
They really took Davo undertheir wing and you know they
just wanted to see the best forDevo because they could see how
brilliant he was atskateboarding.
And yeah, I was just.

(27:16):
I guess I grew up in an areawhere we had like a tight click
with skateboarding and, yeah,fond of memories oh yeah, like
sort of like yeah, all the.
And yeah, find memories.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Oh yeah, like sort of like yeah, all the different
yeah, so you were from actualBorkham Hills or Castle Hill,
castle Hill, castle Hill, bornand raised.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, so I'm not really a borker really.
Yeah, yeah, kind of They'vebeen precious.
Yeah, I don't think Don't gothere.
Yeah, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Don't go there.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Yeah, I won't.
I won't.
I mean, I kind of am, but Idon't even think like, yeah, I
don't even like they see me asone, but anyway, let's leave it
at that.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
I'm sure they would.
How would you reflect on yourtime at home in your early days
with your family?

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Yeah, sometimes my mum and dad like they're're
still married, like I actuallylive at my parents' house, which
is in Lake Munmura, so I don'tknow Like, for all the
dysfunction, there's obviouslybeen some function that's held
things together pretty well.
Yeah, I came from a pretty goodhome in the context of, you

(28:21):
know, having parents, and youknow that my parents loved me.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Supportive of everything you tried.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, that would have been like everyone was
apprehensive of skateboardingback in that era.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
How old were you when you started?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
I would have been like I was like I had like a
little board when I was probablylike seven.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
And then, like that would have been like probably
like that late 70s sort of boom,I had like a fiberglass one and
then, like you do go back, butI didn't, I only rode that for a
little bit like and pulled itout every now and then, like
maybe every six months, I tookit for a burn down the driveway,
you know like with no shoes onthat sort of thing, probably got
hammered, my toes smacked intosomething because I.

(29:01):
But I got like a proper boardwhen I was like third.
I think I started writing thatboard again when I was 13,
waiting for my birthday, becauseI wanted a proper board like a
reflex for my 14th birthday.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
Why were you attracted to it?

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Back to the Future would have been it.
Yeah, Michael J Fox kicking upthat board.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
I swear you put it down to a few things like Back
to the Future or Tony Hawk'scomputer game, PlayStation game,
which I never played you neverplayed that, no.
But most people will say, oh,it's because of Back to the
Future or that.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, back to the Future, like definitely our era,
you know, because you're goingto think like there was, yeah,
we wouldn't have even seen likefootage of them even
skateboarding, because you onlysaw that rock and slide around
the bowl on Wide World of Sportson a Saturday Harbour and
that's the only thing we everknew of skateboarding.
Back to the future, so that wasyeah, because I'm like I'm a

(29:56):
street skater right, like Iskate mini and all that.
But yeah like invert and stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
I guess, like you know, following the trajectory
and look, I'm really and I knowJimmy's too really eager to get
into the nitty gritty of yourphotography journey.
So you obviously love skatingand you're skating with that
Borco crew.
They were probably the peopleyou would mostly skate with.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
The Davos and the Scott brothers and all that crew
.
They were your crew.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
Pretty much.
Yeah, like I didn't, so, like,like, so I'd go to school like I
was in, like me and Glenn andWally, like we were all in the
same year and we'd all hang outlunchtime and we just talked
about that's.
All we would have done istalked about skateboarding all
through year nine and ten andthe high school was called.
Gilroy College.
There you go, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
And Glenn and Hank went both into that.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, so Hank's two years older, so he was in
my brother's year I know, yeah,yeah, because Hank moved to
Nowra.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
You know that, don't you?

Speaker 3 (30:50):
I do know that, yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, I was
telling we're talking about,we're talking about that.
I was talking to Jim about that, like a big brother to me.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
He always had my back .

Speaker 3 (31:08):
I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
He just did.
He was yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shout out to Hank.
Thanks, Hank.
Yeah, he's I know Glenn bydefault through Hank.
Really, yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Like I used to see everyone, like when Hank, before
he joined the Navy, like heworked.
I think he worked at likeFranklin's, like Castle Hill,
like, just like, and he was justdoing time there for like a
year until he was I think Idon't know.
I think he had to meet, like hehad to be 19 or something, I
don't know what it was, but yeah, he had to wait a year until he

(31:42):
joined the Navy.
But Hank would was, but yeah,he had to wait a year until he
joined the navy.
But I'd hank would was a littlebit like he would just go off
skating by himself or whatever.
So he would like glenn andglenn, glenn, and like carrie
fisher and that jeff ben thoseguys didn't really come over,
come and skate the banks atcastle hill high then, whereas
hank would you know what I meanlike, and every now and then
bump into hank and I'd be likethe skate with Hank was like you

(32:08):
know, you get people and youjust love skating with them.
They're so much fun to skatewith.
Well, that was like Hank yeah.
And yeah, he had a big like.
He made a big impression on me.
Did he?
Like when I was like in year 10, you know, like 11, 12, when I
was younger.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, year 10.
You know, like 11, 12, thatwhen I was younger.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah, 40 years.
Yeah, actually, what kind ofstudent were you at high school?
Like dumb student?
I wasn't dumb, but like um youwent top of the class no, no, I
would have like looked out.
I would have been like justlooking out the window, like
thinking they should have like ahalf put like a vert ramp out
in that grass area out there.
And yeah, I wasn't really.
I only went to school because Ihad to be there and I stayed on

(32:47):
for year 11 and 12 because Ialready had a job.
Like I was working in coalslike I worked like thursday
night, friday night and on andon saturday like.
So I was actually like makinggood money as well when I was in
high school, but I didn't wanta full-time job because I
already had a job and I've kindof thought work sucked.
So I sort of even though youhave to do it, but yeah, it's

(33:08):
kind of why I stayed on, didyear 11 and 12.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, so like with that skatecrew.
Then, like, did you get intophotography so you could shoot
skateboarding, or were youalready into photography?

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yeah, that's In a creative way, that's a pretty
good question.
So, yeah, it's awesome actuallybecause, like skateboarding,
like exposed me the magazineslike trans world, or like if,
like, I think I got frasherfirst, like, but even like
someone like bryce knights orluke ogden, they're really good
photographers and you're lookingat these like so you're looking

(33:42):
at those mags going, okay, okay, that's a rad photo, yeah, but
who took it?
Yeah, I'm starting to look at,yeah, I was looking at that.
And then when Transworld cameout, like, and then, like I said
, not came out, like when Istarted getting Transworld, like
because remember this was like1987.
Like I'd get imported into theskate shop and that type of
thing and just buy the news, youtype of thing, and just buy the

(34:03):
news, you could a bit later onbut like, but then seeing Grant
Britton's photos, and you know,like in Transworld, and he took
photos of other things as well,so he, you know, like that
vacant pool shot or whatever youknow, with the palm tree, you
know, so you're looking at, Iwas looking at these photographs
and just thinking, and then Ialso looked at surf magazines

(34:24):
before that, a little bit, justbefore that, but I thought, like
the crossover, like different.
But I found that, like withskateboarding photography, they
were looking, you know, like, if, for example, like there was an
article like on Canada orMontreal or whatever they
trans-worked around, they'lltake photos of other things as

(34:45):
well.
You know what I mean.
Like, yeah, it wasn't justaction sports, skate photography
, but it just really.
And surf photographers do thesame thing.
They take photos of bums on thebeach and girls' bums on the
beach and stuff and justbeautiful photos.
Yeah, sunsets, and I got intophotography, obviously just from

(35:06):
looking at like these magazinesskate mags, skate mags in
particular that was like bang, Iwant to be a photographer, but
not like a skate photographer.
I wanted to be a photographeroh yeah, not specifically
skating no, I always wanted tobe like a journalist.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Photographer well, do you remember that moment?

Speaker 3 (35:21):
do you remember that moment where you went hey,
that's what I want to do, yeah,yeah, you actually remember it
yeah, yeah, because, like mynext door nate, like so one day
when I was young, like I was inyear 10 or something, like the
guy that lived behind me, likehe was my you know, like I live
in my you know, I think heistwas in year 10, right.

(35:41):
So this guy called Peter Wagner, like so he's, and he lived
with his family, he was like theproperty behind, and my parents
were friends with the Wagnersand Peter was a bit of a dick.
He just pinned me down onenight and I think they'd
probably all been drinking alittle bit as well you know, the
parents or whatever and he juststarted grilling me about what,

(36:04):
asking me about what I wantedto be in life, and then I just
pulled it out.
So I wanted to be aphotographer.
And then the interesting thingis, like he then he had, like he
didn't lend me his camera, hehad a Canon AE-1.
So I don't like, if you know,like people that listen, if
people listen like know a bitabout photography, like that's

(36:25):
like a good camera to getstarted with.
But he didn't lend me thecamera, but he lent me like a
book that he had bought, likehow to use the Canon AE-1, and I
just studied that book and then, yeah, so I kind of knew how to
use the camera manually beforeI even had a camera.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
Right and for those listening, we need to really
clarify this is pre-digital.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yeah, this is.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
This is developing film.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, I hadn't.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, that era, yeah, yeah, Wow.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Mm so cool.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah.
So that was when I kind of yeah, yeah, I knew exactly what I
wanted to do.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
You knew who were some of the early skate
photographers that really stoodout Like.
You mentioned Grand Britain.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, yeah, grant Bryce Canites, who were some
other big influences.
Yeah.
Luke Ogden Steve.
Sherman, oh yeah, like MoFo,like Spike Jones, daniel Harold
Sturt was the one that camealong and you just sort of even

(37:30):
I wouldn't even think I wasaware of, like you know that he
was using like the, just the.
He used, yeah, his photography.
He was using medium and largeformat cameras and doing an
unusual printing and things likethat.
My brain wasn't even kind of upto par in understanding what
his approaches to photographywere, but you can't help but
stand back and just see that hisphotography is brilliant.

(37:52):
Like anyone can see that.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Were you just like copying angles and thinking
about the angles he was taking?

Speaker 3 (37:59):
like in those early stages.
Yeah, I didn't really like.
I didn't really copy likebecause, see, when you're
starting out, you'd start outlike with a basic like.
I start out with like aPractica, like a Russian metal
camera with a 50mm lens, so Idon't have like a 16mm fisheye

(38:19):
or an 80-200 on it or somethingthat those photographers would
have been using, so I certainlywasn't getting their angles.
But kind of like perseveringwith like a camera like that,
you kind of, yeah, you learn tostart to see things in your own
way, because you're sort oflimited with the equipment that
you have.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Yeah, did you have any other Australian
photographers, likeskateboarding photographers, to
talk to as well, like at thisstage, did you?

Speaker 3 (38:47):
No, david Walsh would have been the only.
There was two, there wasMichael Restuccia.
So he I used to bump into himwhen I was like doing my like I
was in high school, like when Iwas so, when I was like in year
11 and 12, we used to go skatingat the Squash courts at St
Mary's.
They had like they had thespine mini ramp there and they

(39:11):
had a.
They had like a vert ramp thereas well, far out.
Yeah, so like I remember, Borcoguys.
They were Like because the thingI didn't tell you this about
Like with With Glenn and Wally,like when we were on high.
They all left in year 10.
Whereas I and they went and gotapprenticeships, like I think
they both became roof plumbers,but I stayed on so I lost.

(39:34):
I didn't really have much to dowith them anymore, like because
you know like.
But I'd bump into them, eventhough we were from the same,
we've known each other into them, even though we're from the
same, we've known each other.
They kind of went like Wally,glenn and they sort of how can I
say it?
and Jeff Bennett and you knowlike and Russell and yeah they

(39:54):
all sort of they all reallyskated, you know, because they
all worked like they hadapprenticeships and they were
pretty tight.
But yeah, I used to see themout at St Mary's, yeah, and then
, yeah, so I used to see MikeRastusia out there.
So Mike Rastusia, he worked forCanon at the time, like he was
like a photographer,photographer, photographer, but

(40:16):
he was trying to be a skateboardphotographer and yeah, so I
could see what he, you know,like he was using flashes, like
shooting indoors, things likethat real basic stuff.
I was still only, I didn't knowa lot about photography.
It takes years to acquire theknowledge and things like that.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
Would you ask him for advice or anything, or?

Speaker 3 (40:35):
I think I would have back then.
Yeah, I would have asked himabout, like, what his shutter
speed was that he was using,like if you're shooting indoors,
like onto fluoro lights andthings like that.
And that he was using, like ifyou're shooting indoors, like
onto fluoro lights and thingslike that and O'Meally hadn't
started shooting yet, right, hewouldn't have even he wasn't
even Did you know.
Mike.
I knew him as well at this timeso I knew O'Meally through

(40:57):
Skating Cool Park.
So we became friends like alsolike I would have been like in
year 11 or year 12, but I wouldbring my camera.
So I had that Practica camerawith the 50mm lens, my first
camera that I got for mybirthday when I was in year 10.
So I've got photos of himactually doing hand plants and

(41:18):
things like that, maybe doinginvert and rock and rolls.
I think he wore a red helmet.
He would know that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I was going to ask you.
Sorry, jim, but I was going toask you do you remember who your
first skate photo was exactly?

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Yeah, so it was the first one.
Did you just ask that?
No, but that's a good question.
So the first skate photo wasthat.
So I got my camera for my 16thbirthday and then we went up to
Castle Hill High School and itwas this guy called.
It was either I think it waseither Sean Gorman.
Like this guy I went to schoolwith doing like a slappy grind

(41:57):
on like a metal pole that was ontop of the banks.
If it wasn't him these are likethe first frames out of this
camera, first roll film ever putin it it would have been
michael wilson.
This guy's like a legend.
He's doing like, because I'vegot two frames that took a
backside boneless that he'sdoing on the bank, so it looks
like he's doing a judo here.
It's like a cool photo way,like his foot's not planted,

(42:19):
yeah, and that's pretty goodbackside boneless frame I I
think that might be my firstframe and if not, the other one
he took he did like a frontsideboneless and again I've got that
and his foot's not on the banktoo, which is pretty good.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
So just to clarify, this is a single shot, it's not.
You weren't taking a sequence.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
No, no A motor drive was in.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
There's no motor drive.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
Prospect of a motor drive was light years away at
that point.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
So it was literally about like sharp timing.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yeah, yeah, and trying to get it in focus.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
No top mounted flash.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
No flash.
That wasn't even in the board.
Yeah, didn't.
Even my brain wouldn't haveknown remotely what to do with a
flash.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, yeah, so cool.
Yeah, so that was your firstperson, yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned like,
because at the same time like Ithink the second time, like
second roll of film I had forthat camera, I went, I think the
Bones Brigade came to MartinPlace like in 1980, 88 for like
Hosoi was there as well.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Was it the same time they had the demo at the Opera
House?
Was it that the one at the sametime they had the demo at um
the opera house during that?
Was it that?

Speaker 3 (43:25):
that one at the opera house.
That was like that was 89, thatwas yeah, but that was yeah,
that was 89, this one that wasan easter demo, I think this one
was like later in the year,like it would have been.
It would have been like octoberand november because my
birthday was in october at thetime.
So, um, but yeah, like.
So I'm talking, I bought aflash cause it was nighttime,

(43:46):
and I'm talking to this lady onthe train and she looks at my
flash and she looks at my camera.
She goes, yeah, that'll work.
I don't know, like to me, likeshe.
I mean, it looked like she knewthat she looked like a
photographer to me, anythingabout photography.
So I'm, I shot like, shot like40 photos, maybe more.

(44:08):
I think I passed 40 and I'mlike Flash is working pretty
well, I'm thinking, but the filmshould have ended by now.
They only have 36 frames onthem.
I haven't loaded the tongue.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
I thought it was 25.
It depends.
Oh, you might've got the biggerone, 36.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, I thought it was like I didn't.
I was thinking maybe they'vegiven me some more film in this
role, but I hadn't actually likeloaded the film into the camera
properly, so I didn't actuallytake any photos.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
And then you ruined the film and exposed it because
you checked.
You opened it and checked.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
No, even dumber, Like I rewound the film and then put
it in the lab and it's justcome out completely clear, which
means like if you've got, likeif your necks are completely
clear.
It means that, like no imagehas been exposed and the fixers
just removed all the chemistryand it's just nothing.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Jim, you're an amazing photographer as well.
I know you'll deny that, butyou are.
I think you're pretty good.
Okay, is that better, if I knowyou won't?
I know you'll deny that, butyou are.
I think you're pretty good.
Okay, is that.
Is that better if I say you'repretty good?

Speaker 4 (45:08):
no, I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm not just
saying that.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
I don't fake it till you make it okay, no, but anyway
.
So like you definitely startedas in the digital era, correct?

Speaker 4 (45:19):
yeah, yeah, I mean I've taken little 35 millimeter
photos plenty of times just withdisposable cameras.
Or I've got like a littleplastic, just film camera, like
a little.
It was literally made by Kodakand you could just buy.
It has no settings on it, it'sthe equivalent of a disposable
camera that's not disposable,and then you get it processed
and that's it and you get itprocessed.

(45:39):
That was the first thing I evershot like photos on, but there's
no.
It's the equivalent of taking aphoto on a phone.
It's just not digital because Idon't get to.
When you shoot those photos, Ican't change the settings, other
than buying a certain ISO orfilm or something Like.
There's no shutter speed, it'sliterally just pointed at
something and press a button.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Yeah, it's got like two settings.
Like some cameras they mighthave like three shutter speeds,
like one second, one sixtieth ofa second.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Yeah, this one doesn't even have that.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
And a hundredth of a second.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yeah, this one doesn't even have that, but yeah
, and then my partner is a foodphotographer and I borrowed one
of her Canon bodies.
And then I actually bought afisheye lens off um Brennan
Caldwell, who was one of Rowan'sfilmers, um Rowan Davis's
filmers, and he had it forfilming like with a digital

(46:34):
video camera.
But, um, it was actually like aI mean, it was a Canon lens and
I bought that and just startedexperimenting with it.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Yeah, I guess like and it's like it's less
consequential.
I guess Like again, you knowyou get a roll of film, you
stuff it up, you go and pay forthe processing of it and then
you've got nothing to show forit.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, I was quizzing Jim about like one of these
pictures he took because he has,like he showed me one of his.
Like Jim does a zine, right,and I'm looking at the photo,
I'm looking that's pretty good,like I'm looking at where the
light's coming from, and then Isort of think like hey, like did
you use a light in that picture?

Speaker 4 (47:11):
You know what I mean Like and he says yes
no-transcript equipment like Ineed to light up this, this spot

(47:38):
, and I just yeah, like theflash that I used to shoot the
photo I took of you in SLAM.
Yep, that is the.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
that's the light that Aaron's talking about, so you
would have like, so you wouldhave used, you've used.
It was um, like it's um, alsowireless as well.
Yeah, so you didn't have cablesrunning no no, no cables.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
You got a remote and, like you can, you can change
the remote sensor to high speed.
So when I change the speed ofthe photo, essentially like how
fast I can capture you moving,so it will capture you in real
time, essentially as I pull thetrigger.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
It's just such an interesting contrast to have you
both here.
See, I've never done that in askate photo.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
I've never used like a studio light as a main light
scape.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Photo.
Well, so then, as thingsstarted to progress for you in
your photography journey and youstarted using flashes for night
photography and stuff like thathow is it different to what
Jim's doing Like break it down?

Speaker 3 (48:39):
Yeah, I use like little speed lights.
So I use the ones that you puton the top of the camera, you
know, and then so you can uselike like several, like I'd use
like a bunch of those, likethree or four of them or
whatever, but they're sort of,would they be disposable?
Or something, no, no they'rejust like a typical flash that
you put on like an slr camera.
Okay, you know they go up andgo up and then bend over yeah

(49:00):
yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
so they're kind of like aharsher light, like with like a
studio light.
You can diffuse the light moreyou can, just there's more and
it yeah, it's just a differentsort of speed.
Lights are harsher basically aswell, but there's that's like a
, there's a style about the waythey work.
That's appealing as wellInteresting.

(49:22):
It's not like one's better thanthe other, it's just like the
effect that you want to get outof.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
One definitely requires a lot more skill.
I'll tell you that much, andit's not the one I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Oh, you're talking about.
You mean like, using like,because you can preview what
you're doing.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
No, you're.
I mean, I'm essentially justpointing and you know, setting
the camera up and setting thelight up and waiting for the
skateboarder to do a trick,whereas with using film and
those little speed lights andpositioning them, stuff, it's
all science.
It's really different to whatI'm doing and I'm being really
honest there.
That's not yeah yeah I'm awriter, not a photographer.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Aaron's a photographer yeah, and so you do
think your photography journeyjust uh, grew out of a necessity
to have a photo with yourwritten articles.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
I started shooting little 35mm photos to go in
zines and stuff.
But it was really becauseBrendan Frost, who was
Newcastle's primary skatephotographer, like the most
recent one, moved to Melbourne.
I'd already startedexperimenting a little bit for
fun, just to like see if I couldtake a skate photo.

(50:28):
But the only reason I startedtaking more was because Frosty
moved away and like Connor waslike Connor Reeve was shooting
with Sam, like Sam Cody a lot,who's one of my favourite
contemporary Australian skatephotographers.
He's amazing.
But Sam lives in Sydney and youknow he only comes up here

(50:51):
every couple of months orsomething.
So it's just with Frosty goneand you know there's no access
to you know photographers.
Ty Nielsen that you had on thepodcast recently is a great
skate photographer actually.
I know he's tied up running theshop and stuff at the moment.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
He shoots a good photo, yeah, cool.
So I guess, aaron, like I'm,the reason I'm sort of what I'm
leading to here is like do youfeel that skate photography is
of less value than it was backin the 90s?
Yeah, um, yeah, I do, yeah,okay yeah, yeah, there's
certainly.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Um, yeah, I do, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, there's
certainly like, okay, I pick up.
I don't really look atskateboard magazines that much,
like I really don't look at themat all and um, except for like
I've I mean, I looked at themfor years.
You know like a good decade Igot like you know like 15 years,

(51:49):
I don't know a decade ofthrashes and trans worlds at
home or whatever, but and allphotos like my own magazines and
stuff where I had my picturesand things like that.
But yeah, I just don't thinkit's changed.
Like I look at like I thinklike aha, uh, like I'm one of my
mates aha, you know, aha,andrew alcorn, he lent me a

(52:10):
frasher and this still shot.
Like the lighting's not allthat different, like it's, you
know, like it's offset lightingcoming from.
You know like different,different views creative because
it's all fish eye stuff, stuff.
It's not.
I didn't.
Yeah, I think it changed really, I thought it just kind of
seemed the same to meInteresting.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
What same angles, same lighting, less creativity.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
I think like, even like, see, when it was film
photography you use like, ohyeah, the film was really slow,
so you're restricted to using 50and 100 iso film, which means
that you're shooting like withslow shutter speeds all the time
, particularly particularly ifyou're skating in the city like

(52:58):
late in the afternoon, like youremember how sydney cbd is like,
yeah, exactly, yeah, there'll,yeah, there'd be like a patch of
blue, like you know, like inthe sky, like above the
buildings or whatever, but likeyeah, it's predominantly dark.
So you, basically you had likeexposure drag in a lot of your
photos.
So you see, like a lot ofmovement.
Some of that's like exposuredrag can look pretty good, but

(53:20):
yeah, you would see that in alot of old photos.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Even the ones you were showing us earlier.
Yeah, you would see that in alot of old photos, Even the ones
you were showing us earlier.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
yeah, that like, but also like because it was, yeah,
I think like, okay, like therewas just so many like, like kind
of options for creativity thatyou could use.

(53:49):
Like you could use a 35mmcamera.
You could use a medium formatcamera that shoots either 6x7 or
6x6 or, you know like, itbasically shoots in another
format.
It's not so much the film size,but those whole camera systems
are different, like the lensesand things.
They all feel different.
And then you can go into largeformat, which is even like using

(54:11):
cameras with bellows and you'refocusing on ground glass
screens.
And then there's half framecameras which, like split a 35
millimeter frame into two frames.
So that's just film camera.
That's just the different typesof cameras you can use and the
different format films to fitthose cameras.
And then there's things likeusing infrared, there's

(54:32):
cross-processing, there's allthe different printing
techniques.
There was like a lot.
There was a lot that um wasinvolved in in film photography,
as opposed to just maybe using,like you know, like a
full-frame mirrorless camera,35mm.

(54:53):
You know that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (54:55):
Do you think that and this is a genuine question, and
maybe for both of you too doyou think that lack of progress
or innovation that you'retalking about in contemporary
skateboarding photography, thatyou know somebody that took a
break from skateboarding,looking like you and looking at
a magazine?

(55:15):
Now you don't think that thekind of artistry of the photos
has changed that much?
Do you think that sometimescomes back to the magazines too,
because skateboarding is reallylike ingrained in, it has to
look a certain way and sometimesif you experiment with photos
like I really like doing it likemucking around, taking from a
weird angle or using the fisheyethrough something or whatever
and being silly, there would beno chance of getting those

(55:38):
photos, even if it's a fantasticphoto in the photos, right,
there would just be no chance ofgetting them published, even if
the trick's fantastic, even ifit's a great photo, because it
doesn't look like a traditionalskateboarding photo.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Yeah, you have to sort of subscribe to a style.

Speaker 4 (55:55):
Would you agree with that?

Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, I haven't.
I think they all.
Sorry, jim, I think the photosall look like they're just
flooded with flash andcompensated with a background
exposure that fits it, and it'seither shot with a longer focal

(56:18):
length lens or a fisheye.
Yeah, like that stuff's.
Yeah, yeah, like that stuff's.
Yeah, it's a subscribed stylenow that, yeah, maybe people
don't want to deviate from ittoo much, maybe, but I don't
know, I haven't been.
I don't look at the magazinesthat much, but certainly that

(56:38):
one particular fresher that Ilooked at like a year or two ago
was flooded with pictures likethe ones I just talked about.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Yeah, I'll go.
Let's just get back to thechronology a little bit, like I
want to go back to.
okay, you finished uni, you hadthe cockroach in your ear, you
had a bad time, I had a bad yearand I kind of like it, sort of
had my camera bag stolen hadyour camera bag stolen and it
kind of just effectively rattled, you put you on a different

(57:02):
trajectory and realized that youknow I don't know if I really
want to be a psychologist and atthe time, like your photography
was popping off, like from myrecollection, there was a period
of time over a few years whereevery single Australian skate
mag that you would open therewas photos just predominantly
from you, mike, o'meally CurtisMarr they were you three were

(57:23):
kind of just, especially you andO'Meally Curtis Marr they were
you.
Three were kind of just,especially you and O'Meally were
just across the board.
Yeah, do you remember that era?

Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Yeah.
So I mean I want to, I want todelve into that time.
I mean, were you earning alivable income, primarily off
skate photography during thattime?
Pretty much like, and that'sall you were living off.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Yeah, pretty much like and that's all you were
living off.
Yeah, when, like when I wasLike, when I was doing my Like
on Like, like my first year,second Like, hang on a thing.
I think I had like Jobs, likeworking car detail or in car
yards, things like that.
Like when I was Like in myfirst and second year I sort of
got good at Like my photography,just Like when, like I would

(58:05):
look at Mike O'Meally's photoslike in the first, like slam
magazines that he was having hisphotos in like and he's like
learning curve just went, youknow, like super steep and just
he picked up like slave lightingand all his exposures and
everything was just on point tip.
And then me seeing that andbecoming envious of like what he

(58:30):
could do.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Did you feel like you were in competition with him at
times?

Speaker 3 (58:34):
I don't think he was too much worried about competing
with me, but like I certainlywould be looking at his
photographs and thinking like Iwanted, like I always love, like
clear, well-lit, sharp photosand he's pretty good at doing
that.
Yeah, yeah, I certainly kind ofI always want my photos to be
better than his and my exposuresand things like that and my

(58:56):
flashlight.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Oh, you want to get published more.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Oh well, he, it wasn't so much that Like the
thing.
It was interesting what yousaid about the pictures either
being taken by him or by me.
There was no otherphotographers like we both like
when.
So when we both becamephotographers this is the early

(59:19):
90s people like Scott Needhamhe'd become a snowboard
photographer.
Like Scott Needham was full,full-blown fashion photographer.
This is like when I was in highschool Forget about that Like,
yeah, there was like David Walsh, I think he moved to America
and liked to pursue fashionphotography or printing or

(59:40):
something like that.
There was Dave Pang.
He was in the Air Force GourlayGourlay Gourlay Gourlay.
He was with Mano Mili, LikeGourlay was a little bit before
me.
Me and him were around, maybestarted around the same time.

Speaker 4 (59:54):
I think he was shooting.
Yeah, he definitely.
He has a photo of Justin Hughesor Gizzo in that same issue
that you had your first photos,that your first photos were in.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Yeah, he's doing like .

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Slam 17, yeah.
Doing like a nose grind on anorange bench or something, isn't
he Yep, yep in South Australiaand it says Justin.
It just says his name is Justin.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, and Steve Goyle used a slave in that photo.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
He did yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
And I wouldn't have known how to use a slave at that
point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
For those that don't know, because people are
listening.
For those that don't know,because people are listening,
just tell everyone what a slaveexactly is.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
It's a type of flash, so you've got like yeah, it's
so they call it.
It's a second flash that youuse, like when you're taking a
picture.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
It's on a sensor.
It's on a sensor or a cord.
If you can't afford the sensorversion, is that right, yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
you're exactly right A sensor or a cord, or it can be
on a remote.
You know so it's triggered bylike a receiver.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
And very important to scape photography because it
can really change the lightingand the angles and the effect
that you're trying to achieve,well, the whole thing with scape
photography.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
If you're going to use, like a fisheye lens, a
fisheye lens covers like 16 mils.
Like 16 mil, that's the focallength of the lens.
It's almost like 180, it's not180 degrees, but it's a pretty
wide lens.
So a flash when it pumps out,like even with like a diffuser

(01:01:16):
on it, like a diffuser is tobroaden the light.
One flash by itself is notgoing to cover, like the, the
coverage of a 16mm fisheye lens.
So if you're shooting a skatephoto with a fisheye lens and
just one flash on the top ofyour camera, you're going to get

(01:01:37):
these black edges around theside because the flash coverage
just isn't enough.
So you kind of need to useslaves to basically, you know,
like to fill the frame withlight, yeah, to light up the
whole scene, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Yeah, gotcha.
Yeah, because I think at whatpoint were you?
Because I know youpredominantly worked for
Skateboarding Australia.
Right, yeah, but not so muchSlam.
No, were you actually anemployee of Skateboarding
Australia?

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
I wasn't employed by them.
Australian Skateboarding sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
Sorry, australian Skateboarding.
Yeah yeah, australianSkateboarding.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
Sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
No, so I started out like.
So my first pics that I everlike started sending into the
magazines they were the Slammagazine, and then there was no
Australian like Australianskateboarding that hadn't.
That was basically Australianskateboarding was Skating Life.
It was the same publishingcompany, but Skating Life, like

(01:02:40):
that, had shut that down.
So there was only one magazineSlam magazine.
Like when I first startedsending my photos in, so around
the time like I starteduniversity as well, like I had
this like sort of like anidentity crisis, like so I gave
up skateboarding for about ayear.

(01:03:00):
Yeah, it was like I'd even likehang out with skaters but I
wouldn't skate.
You know, like just watch whatthey're doing, stuff like that.
It's like even though, likeyou're yearning on the inside to
want to skate, you're justpunishing yourself.
Like anorexics do it.
Like you know, people do it tothemselves.
I kind of did that to myself.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
I don't know why.
You don't know why, no Okay,burnout.
I don't know why.
You don't know why no Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
Burnout.
Yeah, it'd be like a.
It'd be some stress relatedsort of thing from growing up or
something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah, like, and then you got back into it and then
really delved into it.
That's when you started workingmore as a photographer for
Skateboard.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Yeah, well, the whole so Wait, you had a couple of
photos published in 92.
Yeah, well, the whole.
So Wait, you had a couple ofphotos published in 92.
Yeah, right.
Then you took a year off.
Right and correct me if I'mwrong, but Andrew Curry was
bombed at you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
Yeah, yeah, he was pissed off because, like because
with Cazzo's, like he like wehad all been through this, like
we all you know, likeing crap,like died in the late 80s and
suddenly like we're the leastpopular people in school and
we've got no friends to goskating with.
That happened to kaza and likefrom what I understand, and like

(01:04:15):
um, so he didn't really hedidn't take, he wasn't, he
didn't particularly like it whenpeople just gave up
skateboarding yeah, interestingyeah, even though like so was
there an actual riff or he wasjust kind of disappointed?
no, there was no.
I never spoke a word to him,like I've spoken like to andrew,

(01:04:35):
like since then, like over theyears, and yeah, he doesn't, but
yeah, there was no no, I'm justmore sorry to interrupt.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
I just meant he's a lovely guy, I meant I more meant
that he was bummed becauseyou'd be sending him some great
photos and he was the editor of.
Slam at the time and then, allof a sudden, you stopped
contributing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Yeah, I didn't even look at it from that angle, but
yeah, there would have been.
There was no one taking photosin the country at all at that
time.
There was David Walsh and hewas doing his own, like Street
noise and hardcore, and thenmoving to America.
Everyone had bailed out, likethere was no photographers at
all.
Cousin was taking pics as well.

(01:05:13):
Yeah right, it was too.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
He took some great photos.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
There was Steve Gourlay and myself, Andrew.
Curry like all those otherphotographers Scott Needham,
mike Restuccia, like Dave Pangyeah, they had stopped taking
skateboarding photos at thatpoint.
I don't know about Dave PangPang was still shooting stuff.
He was probably still shootingstuff, yeah, in Canberra for
sure.
Yeah, yeah, I sort of felt it.
I was excited.
I didn't want to tread lightlysaying that about David Pang,

(01:05:41):
because he loves skateboarding,photography and photography so
much.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
And then yeah, because this is just before,
amelia kind of hits the sceneright.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Yeah, this is all.
Yeah, before that, Even likeTrent Roden was taking photos.

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
He did like Slingshot magazine.
There was no photographers.
So when me and Amelia like sofor him, like it would have been
pretty easy to get a you know,there was no one taking photos
and the same thing, so I'd stoptaking photos with my identity.
I'm a crisis for a year, forabout a year, and I it's funny
you laugh about that, but I lookback at it and just you know, I

(01:06:16):
think what partying, chasinggirls, partying stuff like that-
no, like studying, like tryingto like learn the right essays,
and like just committed to, likewanting to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Just off skateboarding.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
just off it for a while Off everything that I'd
done up to my point in life.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
And it was really beneficial, though, to you
moving forward though, likehaving that year of just finding
yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:06:40):
Yeah, I think so.
Like it's because I startedskating again and just sort of
and like my and like, but I,yeah, I would have taken skate
photos though as well.
I remember, like taking photos.
Remember that photo?
You remember this one, jim?
It's that one in Crank Of DaveRock, still in the nose slide,
and Dave O's holding the slavein the background.

(01:07:01):
Yeah, yeah, I would have takenthat.
At that point I would have goneout with them.
They were skating, and I wouldhave been just thinking, why
isn't Aaron skate anymore?
And I would have like, and Iwould have worn jeans and I
probably wore like Some cherrycoloured Doc Martin shoes.
So this is like, this is likeI've gone out and shot a skate
photo and I've and you got it ina magazine.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
It's like in Gleam in the Cube.
When Christian Slater I don'tknow how to describe it he
stopped scanning for a littlewhile.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
I just tried to not be like.
I was trying to not be theperson I was.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Yeah, but then you came back to who you were.
Yeah, sort of.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
It's been a struggle for my whole life.
You know like yeah, in someways.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
You seem like you're in touch with who you are as a
person, though.
Yeah, I am.

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
But like, yeah, I've always, like you, question your
confidence, question youridentity, your integrity, you
know like things like that aboutyourself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
But I really want to know is, like about being a
working skate photographer.
I want to learn about this.
Like you know, when were youactually really doing it and
which magazine were you mainlydoing it for and which editor
were you really working for?

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Yeah, so that would be Australian Skateboarding.
So it was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Nick Farris was the editor.
And then Gordo became theeditor.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Yeah, yeah, because Nick was awesome.
Like Nick was a little bitolder than so, I would have like
, soeally, like we're, I'm old,I think I'm maybe a year older
than o'meally yeah, um, butwe're, we would have only been
like, I don't know, like 22, 23,nick would have nick, he seemed
nick would have been like 30,you know what I mean, which is

(01:08:39):
young, he seems old, yeah, buthe was, um, he.
So he wasn't trying to be askateboard editor or anything
like that.
He was just tied in with MasonStewart, which was the
publishing company that ranthese magazines, and he was
actually like a snowboardingmagazine, edited the
snowboarding magazine.

(01:08:59):
But they just decided that theywanted to start up like
relaunch skating life.
But they, yeah, they had tostart up like relaunch skating
life, but they, yeah, they hadit as Australian skateboarding.
I won't go any further, youknow.
You can probably read my mind,jim.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
What do you mean?
You won't go any further.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Oh, because it was.
John Fox was the editor of likeskating life.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
But they had Nick Farris, do it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Yeah, but I mean good memories, good times.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Yeah, I mean, how many cover shots did you have?
Oh heaps like probably like adozen of them, I'd say.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Yeah, more, yeah, I can't.
Jim would know the exact amount.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Oh yeah, so I didn't.
I'm sort of going off track.
So there was no, there was, itwas just the perfect opportunity
to become a photographer, likeif you followed your passion,
like with skateboarding.
Because there was no, there was, there was a whole, there was.
There was no one doing it therewere no photographers.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
I mean, there's a handful of photographers, but
there was slam.
Then crank comes out and thenaustralian skateboarding comes
out.
So there's three mags that'sseparate to all the little zines
and there's only like threephotographers.
So of course you're going toget run.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
And Mike O'Meally.
He wasn't allowed to sendphotos to Australian
Skateboarding because I thinkbecause he was on, he had like a
contract with Slam Magazine?

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Did you have a?

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
contract Mm-mm, so I never.
So I just got paid for likewhat?
Got used.
And this is interesting because, like Slam was really, I'll
give you an idea about, like,how much money and stuff I used
to make out of it all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
That's what I'm trying to get to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
So we've okay.
I shot like.
My first check from Slam waslike the center spread with
Danny Way and then the coverwith Troy Mahoney.
I think I got like $250 for itor something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
You know like Wow One $150 for it or something you
know like Wow, one episode, oneissue.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
That's kind of crap, I reckon, for shooting a cover
and a center spread, and thatwas 1992, right, yeah, yeah, the
beginning of 92.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
So it wasn't lucrative and you had to hustle.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
No, no, but how's this Shannon, so Slamwood?
They didn't pay much back thenfor like photos or whatever
Australian skateboarding paidlike really well for photos and
if you look back at those earlymagazines like I shot the entire
magazine.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
So I'd make about.
So I was making about $3,000every issue, so that was coming
out.
That's monthly, coming outevery second month.
Oh, it's bi-monthly and it wasyeah, and then like, so it was
me, yeah, but it was yeah, itwas yeah, bi-monthly, yeah, so
it was six issues a year, butstill for like back in that that

(01:11:33):
era, like that's eighteenthousand dollars a year.
And then I shot other thingslike as well, like um, like I
did inside sport articles juicearticles I'd shot, and I shot
for cycling magazines.
I shot for other magazines thatthat publishing company
produced.
So I worked on it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
Oh, okay, so they're under the same publisher.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
It was all freelance, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
But under the same publisher, so the work came easy
.
Easy Because they're like oh,we've got a guy yeah yeah, and
they're all in the officetalking.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Yeah, they had like all thethey would have.
So the skateboarding magazinewas in this big office that had
the snowboarding magazine orthey called it the, I can't
remember.
It was like a smelly den orsomething, it was just like.
And they had like tracksmagazine was in there as well.
And I think there was abodyboard magazine.

(01:12:21):
I think everyone hated thebodyboard magazine editor, but
yeah, I think there was abodyboard magazine.
I think everyone hated thebodyboard magazine editor, but
yeah, I think they called it thePit or something, but yeah.
And then they had like cyclingmagazines and things like that,
but they had this great guycalled Tony Nolan Tony, fucking
Nolan.
I remember Tony Nolan.

(01:12:44):
Yeah, he was like the onlyphotographer that they employed.
And then Tony loved me so hegot me work with all the other
magazines.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
So you were doing all right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did Like I had, like I was more
or less like, just like, mademoney.

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Did you get much creative input in terms of
layout and stuff like that?
Was that contentious at times.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
With the first, like the first.
I remember like the firstproper, like the first issue,
like they released, like thevery first issue.
They did like there was a photoof Dom Kekic on the front.
I think he was doing a switch180 over like a bench shot in
Melbourne.
That's correct, and JesseFeatherstone shot that picture.

(01:13:31):
Like I only had a few pics,like in the first issue, but
they did like a little likephotographer profile on me, like
I met Dave Mock, was stilltaking photos for the first
issue and I met Dave Mockthrough my taking photos for the
first issue and I met Dave Mockthrough Mock.
Yeah, anyway, it all just fellinto place.

(01:13:52):
Let me think what I'm gettingat here Of all of this.
Damn, there just wasn't manyphotographers and basically,
like if I could, I could, I hadto.
I was like I could shoot thewhole magazine really and like,
yeah, Were you sending?

Speaker 4 (01:14:06):
so, say, if you the photos that you had published in
Australian Skateboarding theB-size things that weren't
accepted would you shop thosearound Like?
Would you send stuff to Crank,for example, to see if they'd
publish it for a little bit ofextra money as well?

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
I used to do that with Transworld, so like what
I'd do, like I'd save, like.
So I remember, like some of theinterviews yeah I did it with
with Tran, I didn't so much likeI wouldn't really send my
photos to Slam Magazine and andCrank I sent my photos to Crank
before Australian skateboardingstarted, but I sort of just

(01:14:42):
stayed loyal to them, like notthat they cared, but that's just
sort of how I am anyway, likeyeah, that Dave Rock's photo on
issue one, the nose month slide,where he's got the camo shirt
on.
Oh, that was, that was the one Iwas talking about, that was
that in that little like theydid, like the little
photographer thing?

Speaker 4 (01:14:59):
on the first issue, which one of my favorite photos
ever.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Yes, yes so let's let's talk about, like, the
gradual exit out of it intoother projects and moving on
from you know earning an incomethat way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
What was next from there?
How did it sort of start towind down or end?
Did you lose interest or justno, I didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:15:22):
Like I always wanted to be like work in journalism,
like I always wanted to get likea cadetship or something like
and become like a newsphotographer.
So that's yeah.
And then, as so let me thinkabout this when I finished my

(01:15:45):
master's, like when I finishedup with university, like I just
left the course, I just wasalmost like being reborn again,
you know, like I just weightjust came off my back.
This whole thing I didn't wantto do, you know, like I'd had
enough of psychology.
I certainly didn't want to do,you know, like I wasn't.
I'd had enough of psychology.
I certainly didn't want to workin the clinical setting and I

(01:16:08):
was just, and I'd sufferedenough, like with my studies,
like sacrificing photography andthings like that, because I was
having to write essays andresearch all the time.
I didn't have time to to do anyof that.
So it was just like that's allgone, bang, you know.
And then, um, yeah, I just wentfull bore with photography.
Now, I didn't, I had time to beable to go and shoot it and I so

(01:16:31):
I'm just thinking like some ofthe photos that I took around
this period, like I took, like Iremember I went on a lot of
missions with like steve tinidavo um would go, um tizo would
come out with us um.
Do you ever remember somephotos taken at Walsh Bay, like

(01:16:52):
with the Sydney Harbour Bridge?
In the background, there arethese long finger container,
there's these.
It's down near Pier 1 and it'sPier 2, Pier 3, pier 4.
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
And they used to have warehouses on them.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
Warehouses.
They're called.
Yeah, they're called likefinger wharfs, longshore wharfs
or whatever.
Yeah, we like around this periodof time, yeah, we'd go on
little missions and I wouldn'tsay break into it, we would just
get into these places.
And there was like a photo ofDavo doing a backside nose.

(01:17:26):
It might be it's a backsidenose, grind backside 180 out
icon and you can see in theheart.
Basically we shot it on one ofthose longshore wharfs with the
doors wide open and the harbourbridges in the background Sick,
but it just seemed like I don'tknow.

(01:17:48):
I shot Dave's interview forAustralian Skateboarding at that
time.
I just remember my photos.
Like they just it seemed likethey really started to like get
they.
Just, I don't know, mycreativity just started to
blossom, like, yeah, reallyBlossom, blossom or bloom, I
guess I don't know.
Like, yeah, it really startedto, just started to get I don't

(01:18:11):
know when did you start workingfor fairfax media then?
so that was not.
I started working for fairfaxin 1999, so, gotcha, yeah.
So I basically just decidedthat, um, I don't know that.
Um, yeah, just started, I hadlike enough I put to get a
portfolio, I'd shot like allthese different sports and like

(01:18:34):
portrait pictures and thingslike that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Were you feeling like , oh, I've got to get more of
like a real job.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Yeah, I just wanted to be like a journalist, like an
adult job, not like that, likeit.
Just there was a bit ofpressure like that from my
parents and my parents wanted meto have a full-time job and
they didn't understand.
Like back in this era, like youdidn't you had like a full.
There's different, differentera, you know what I mean.
Like so they're just worriedabout everything that I've would

(01:19:02):
have been doing, notunderstanding that you can make
money out of doing things thatway or whatever.
But that aside, like I I kindof saw myself as having done
like my apprenticeship, like asa skateboarding, as a
photographer, through the ranksof skateboarding.
Like that's a pretty hardapprenticeship to do as well.

(01:19:23):
Not everything's given to you.
You've got to be self-motivated.
You're teaching yourself how todo everything.
You start out buying everythingfor yourself and skateboarding
Like it was a pretty authenticapproach to journalism.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
And did it really help you at Fairfax oh yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
So like when I started up, like I just started
up as I was, like I started outas like a B-grade casual
photographer, which, like Ididn't even like a B grade
casual photographer, which, likeI didn't even like have to do
an apprenticeship, and I waslike as good as I was, probably

(01:20:02):
like better than thephotographers that had been
there for like 10 years and mylevel of skill was like a lot.
It was maybe like I don't know,it was just like more skill.
I knew how to like.
It's just like more skill.
I knew how to like.
It's funny, like when you'reworking in magazines and things
like that, like you, they only,you only use slide film.
When you use slide film, likeyou got like um you'd call it

(01:20:23):
tolerance these days likeexposure tolerance.
Well, with slide film, there'sonly a thin margin of to
overexpose it and a thin marginfor underexposing it.
If you go over that margin,photos just shit house.
Like that's kind of um is you?
You become a pretty, you becomepretty good with your exposures

(01:20:46):
and things like that.
Like um for using slide filmand using it all the time,
especially like expensive slidefilm that's like $20 a roll,
which is like Fuji Velvia.
Yeah, and by the time I workedthere.
So when I started working innewspapers, like I was really
good with lighting and myexposures and they're the basics
for taking a good photo andthen your composition and things

(01:21:09):
like that.
Like if you don't have goodexposure, regardless of your
composition, it's still going tolook terrible.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
It can't be fixed up in post-production.

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
It couldn't be as easily fixed in post?
Yeah, like how is?

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
this like it's funny, like so when I started working
at Fairfax Newspapers, like Iwas shooting, I worked on the
community newspapers and theywere still predominantly black
and white newspapers but theyhad colour pages in the
newspapers which meant thateverything was shot with colour
film because they didn't knowwhat pages were going to be

(01:21:48):
allocated, like the stories weregoing to be allocated in black
and white or in colour.
So the darkroom days of thenewspaper, when I started
working at newspapers, were gone, like they didn't have like
black and white, the black andwhite printing and all that
stuff.
That had only just finishedlike a year or two before I
started in newspapers.
So I started like 1999.

(01:22:09):
It still was film cameras andusing um Kodak scanners, so
everything was shot with colourfilm and then scanned.
So there was a little bit oflike Photoshop like I was using
Photoshop back then so you coulddo things like lighten up, you
know, like faces and things likethat, like where flashes kind

(01:22:30):
of hadn't exposed them properly,and stuff like that that you
could do with the newspaper.
With skateboarding you couldn't.
There was no adjustment tonothing.
So how you shot that on theslide is how it came out in the
magazine.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
So when you were shooting a skater, for example
because I've seen this in realtime, when a skater's battling a
trick and you're trying to geta sequence and you're burning
through roll after roll likethat's coming out of your
pocket- right, yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:57):
Yeah, yeah, you can hide like a couple of rolls,
because I'd only get like abudget of like 20 rolls of film
for a whole issue, for a wholeissue.
So if I did the maths on that,so five of those would have been
black and white.
So that's like 150 frames ofblack and white, like you could
probably burn like 50 frames.

(01:23:19):
Sequence now how fast the motordrives work okay, like 10
frames a sec.
Now, whatever, the motor drivesare only slow.
Then they're like five frames asecond.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
You know like five and a half so, like, were you
just sort of, were you gettinglike selective with who you'd
shoot with, based on theirconsistency and their ability to
get the job done quick?

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
Yeah, I was pretty apprehensive about like shooting
sequences unless, like I couldyeah, I remember with Morgan,
like because, like inphotography in Australia
everything's really expensive.
So, like in America, like aroll of film film like kodak
roll of film be like three bucksover here.
That roll of film is like 12bucks, you know like it's

(01:24:00):
different, like um well, maybenot that it might have been like
six bucks and it was like twobucks over there.
Yeah, black and white rollerslide film was different.
A roll of slide film in americawould be like five bucks.
That would be like for a rollerVelvia, over here it was $20.
So I wasn't going to beshooting Colour sequences full

(01:24:21):
stop.
At least I got 36 chances ofgetting a single frame.
My flash is going off.
I'm going to waste that film.
Shooting sequences ain't gonnawork, mate.
Yeah, he's stressing big timeyeah because, like, because like
I'd have, like they didn't giveme a lot of film like I, I did

(01:24:43):
get film to shoot for themagazine and I also would buy
some of my own film, but, yeah,I wasn't gonna, I wasn't
prepared to like there must havebeen moments when it created
serious tension between you andthe skater you were shooting yes
so they're getting close butyou haven't got the shot yet.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
But you're running out of film and they want to
keep going and you're like I'mout of yeah there's a point
where you sort of got.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
I remember like I was with morgan campbell and we'll
in westernist, so in in wa anddo you know?
I think it's.
I think it's one of the beaches, it's like Cotter's Low and
it's got the transitioned.
It might not be Cotter's Low,but it might be.

(01:25:25):
So it's in the Perth area butit's one of the beaches there
and there's like a life-savingclub or something and it's got a
roof with transitions on thetop.
And I was shooting some picswith Morgan, like we're trying
to do, like he might have been.
I can't really remember what hewas doing.
He might have just been like abig backside ollie or something
like that over the hip.

(01:25:46):
It had a hip as well on thatroof, crazy yeah, do you?

Speaker 4 (01:25:49):
know the pics jim yeah yeah, yeah, jim knows man I
mean, I know the spot.
I couldn't.
I've never been to wa, but Iknow.
I mean I know from magazines.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
Yeah, I know, yeah but I remember being with morgan
on the rooftop there and he was.
I was trying to shoot asequence of him and then I and
he just kept like kicking hisboard away and bailing and I was
just burning the film and Iremember like getting the roll
of film out of my camera andthrowing it at him.
I was that pissed off burningfilm and Morgan like he

(01:26:21):
remembers that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Because you didn't have a single good shot in the
whole roll.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):
Oh man, I'm starting to like throw film at like
there's no point in processingit, yeah like what if you've got
a skater who, like, there's nopoint in processing it?

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
Yeah, like what if you've got a skater who, like
you know they can do it withbailing all the time?
You're like, why are youfucking bailing?
Like, would you go throughmoments like that, Like stop
bailing.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
Yeah, you try and be nice and you think, yeah, no,
you can do it, we'll try and getthe next one, but there is a
breaking point.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
You know how did he react to that when you threw the
film at him, how did he react?

Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
Oh, he would have got pissed at me.
I know he's like becauseMorgan's mentioned it to me
before he goes.
Yeah, Aaron, can get prettygnarly when you're shooting
sequences and whatever, and Istart flipping out at people.
I think it's like I probablycan't see it myself.
It's probably a monster behindthe camera front.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
I get it oh that's interesting but yeah, I
definitely I have done thatfrown role film morgan campbell
maybe a couple of roles that daythanks for meeting me.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Sorry, morgan, I really am yeah it's, it's crazy
like um, just you know, when youstarted at Fairfax you were
saying earlier in the night thatlike you just found shooting
that kind of photography fornewspapers just like a breeze
and easy.
Yeah, did you progress up theranks quickly in the newspaper

(01:27:47):
and start to solidify yourselfthere as one of their premier
photographers.

Speaker 3 (01:27:52):
Kind of Like so when I because when I worked at
Fairfax I didn't, so I onlyworked there for a year, and so
what happened when I workedthere was they didn't have, so
they, it was Fairfax CommunityNewspapers.
So they had about a dozen likelike suburban newspapers like

(01:28:14):
sprawled throughout Sydney, Likethey had papers like all
throughout the western suburbs,Like they had them in Liverpool,
they had them in Fairfield,they had them in Castle Hill,
they had you know, like CronullaHurstfield, like the latest
they had like yeah, so I workedon all of those newspapers.
Like I didn't work liketypically how it worked back

(01:28:35):
then was like each they employedlike two photographers per
newspaper, but they couldn'tgive me like a full-time job to
work on one newspaper, so Iworked as their casual like on
all of their newspapers.
But yeah, so everyone.

(01:28:57):
No, and the funny thing waslike um, so when I'd go and work
on a particular newspaper for acouple of weeks, like yeah it
was, I kind of had a reputationlike that, like I was, that the
photographer that was coming inwas a pretty good photographer.
Yeah.
Cool man so like I kind of was,they loved me at Fairfax and
then I got headhunted foranother job which was working at

(01:29:20):
a company called FederalPublishing Courier.
So they did like the WentworthCourier and like the Inner
Western Courier and SouthernCourier, like some suburban
newspapers, like in the easternsuburbs of Sydney, and then,
yeah, like they didn't reallyappreciate me too much, like

(01:29:41):
which is a little bit, but yeah,it's a bit of a shame because
like Fairfax, like I would havejust climbed through the ranks
there.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
Yeah, interesting.
Why did you leave Fairfax forthem?

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
Because like a full time job, oh okay, yeah,
security job, oh they headhuntedyou yeah, yeah, you didn't feel
appreciated by them oh there's,you don't have to.
Oh no, I don't mind.
Like it's all ages ago, so like.
What happened was like when youwork in like these industries,
like so the boss of, so the, theeditor-in-chief, like the chief

(01:30:18):
editor of, like fairfaxcommunity newspapers, like he,
he left, he jumped ship and wentover to this other company
called federal publishingcourier, so, and then he started
bringing people from fairfaxover.
So he brought me over, likebased on like he would have like
sussed out like the chiefphotographer at Fairfax and
asked you know, like sourced mefrom there.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
Basically, yeah, oh gotcha, yeah.
Hey, before we started thepodcast, you were talking to Jim
and I about Matt Mumford covershot for Transworld.
Yeah, and you showed us thisamazing photo you took of Matt.

Speaker 3 (01:30:57):
Doing the tail slide.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
Tail slide Down, the handrail Redfern.

Speaker 3 (01:31:01):
Suicide Towers, was it?
No, it was like some.
No, it wasn't Suicide Towers.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
It was like a 10-stair rail, like in
Hurstville somewhere, and you'retelling us the story and I was
like don't tell us, because youwant to hear, tell us on the
podcast.
But can you just like sort ofreiterate what was going on?
Yeah, yeah, so it was a tourand so it was skin phillips.

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):
He was like the, he was like deputy editor of
transworld at the time and liketheir chief photographer, he
came out to Australia to likeshoot photos.
I think it was for MattMumford's interview.
So Matt Mumford, like he wasliving in America at the time he
came out with skin and like hewas skating for Zero and he also
brought Adrian Lopez with him.

(01:31:46):
So the other two Zero guys andI knew Matt.
I know Matt Mumford really wellbecause I'd photographed, like
his interview, um, forAustralian skateboarding.
And I knew Skin fairly well toobecause, like I'd met him
through Dave Swift, who I'd metthrough again like Matt Mumford.

(01:32:06):
Matt Mumford opened the doorslike like he through Matt
Mumford, I've met've met likethese people at Transworld which
are huge in skateboarding andphotography.
But yeah, so Matt's come out toAustralia and he's like and
I've been good friends with Mattalready anyway and he's

(01:32:27):
contacted me and like, basically, like he wants to shoot him and
Adrian Lopez wanted to shootphotos with skin and they just
wanted me to sort of show themaround, take them to some spots
and and they want to hang out meor whatever as well but I think
they just want to like go tospots and shoot pics and stuff
like that, and I could do thatwith them.

(01:32:48):
Um, so I've met up with, I metup with them.
I must have been at work, so Iwould have been working at the
newspaper all day and then I'dsay I've met up with them
because that newspaper theleader that I principally worked
out of, was based in Hurstville.
So, either way, we've met upand we've decided to go out and

(01:33:12):
shoot some pics and, like Skin'sthe main photographer there,
it's his gig, not mine.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
He's been flown out from America for this, for this,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:23):
But I asked him I'm like, do you mind if I shoot
some art pics, like I'm justworking on like an art project
which is like a book that Ipublished?
The art project was meant to belike an exhibition, like in 1999
, but it turned out to be a bookthat I published only two years

(01:33:47):
ago, which, yeah, pretty longproject.
So Skin's like, yeah, it's cool, you know you can shoot these
art pics or whatever.
He didn't mind me being in thebackground, like taking the same
photo, basically, and then likeon another shoot, like we took
Adrian Lopez, like again thethree of us, like the four of us

(01:34:09):
, so Skin, mumford and AdrianLopez, like we went to
Silverside Towers and shot, likeSkin and I but more Skin shot
the photo of Adrian doing thefrontside board slide While you
poached yeah, yeah, yeah, Ipoached the shot like from
behind the bushes, likeliterally like the frame that
I've got, it's got bushes andeverything and it was like those

(01:34:31):
porn photos where they'reshooting from behind the bushes,
like mine's, like that, butAdrian Lopez like from boarding
doing the rail.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
Was it a better photo though?
Yeah, I reckon yeah, because itwas like saturated colour
fisheye flash blowout photo.

Speaker 3 (01:34:49):
Yeah, his was just typical, like typical sort of
like fisheye photo of the dayskin photo.

Speaker 2 (01:34:55):
I love you like backing yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:34:58):
Yeah, keep going yeah , mine was kind of cool photo
like I've shot I would have onlyhad.
I probably, because back then Iwould have just rocked like I
had, like they were metal bodycameras like I would have used
like an fe2, so they're not likesophisticated looking cameras
like now, and I would have justhad like a 50mm lens on it, okay
, but yeah, which is like just abasic lens that comes with the

(01:35:18):
camera when you buy it.
Yeah, yeah, my photo is reallygood.
So did you just like?

Speaker 2 (01:35:25):
see the angle and you know what that angle is sick.
I'm just going to maybe snap acouple.

Speaker 3 (01:35:29):
Yeah, but it's not also like not too many people
could like in Sydney werefrontside boardsliding that rail
.
You know what I mean as well.
It's like an opportunity too,but I didn't mean it in that way
using it.
It's just funny I used thatword opportunity but I shot like
in my right state of mind itwas for my art exhibition.

(01:35:53):
But anyway, somewhere along thelines the photos like Steve
Teeny and Matt Coit have seenthem at Australian Skateboarding
.
Like it would have been me Iwould have gone in and go check
this out, these cool photos thatI took with Skin and with Matt
and Adrian Lopez, so the one of.

(01:36:14):
So these photos are not reallymeant to be published.
So the one of Matt Mumforddoing the tail slide down that
rail in Hurstville gets used onthe cover of Australian
Skateboarding and the samemagazine.
The center spread is AdrianLopez doing the front side board
slide down the handrail andsuicide towels and like.

(01:36:34):
So this has all come out.
That magazine came out.
I think I got the magazine likeon, like maybe like a Wednesday
or something or I can'tremember what day it was like it
was like a couple of days.
I think I was talking to wewere talking about this earlier.
I think I said like a weeklater I was going to.
I think I was going.
I went over to Europe for amonth to photograph the World

(01:36:54):
Cup skateboarding.
It might have only been acouple of days after that
magazine came out, but eitherway, like I was real proud and
took it over and likeTransworld's got a subscription
to it, so they've alreadyreceived the magazine.
Skin's already seen the cover.
So I get, I rock up and I'm inPrague and I see like Mumford

(01:37:17):
and I see Adrian Lopez andthey're like my buddies right.
I saw you in Sydney like acouple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
So they weren't fazed .

Speaker 3 (01:37:26):
Even Mumford was pissed at me.
They were all super pissed atme.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
So you got bad vibes when you seen them.

Speaker 3 (01:37:32):
Yeah, mumford and Matt's like Aaron.
You should know better, youknow, because Matt Mumford like
he really likes me, but he wasjust disappointed in me.
Adrian Lopez was pretty pissedat me because the thing with
that photo was like AdrianLopez's front board was used
like it might have been in theCyrus ad or the shoe ad, it was

(01:37:53):
a shoe ad Circa, circa.
It's a bad thing to do.
You know, like especially ashoe ad.
It was a double-page spreadadvertisement.
It wasn't like a little picture, it was a two-page ad.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:07):
And was Skin's version of Mumford's photo
published in Transworld as well.

Speaker 3 (01:38:11):
The tail slide.
They probably pulled that oneat the last minute because it
ended up on the cover ofAustralian Skateboarding.
It was a disaster, His wholestory's a disaster, but wait up,
wait up.

Speaker 2 (01:38:20):
Who was the editor-in-chief at the time?
Gordo?

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):
Matt Coit was Okay, so he knew what was going on.
Yeah, he became the editor ofRolling Stone.
No shit, no shit, no shit.
Fhm and then Rolling Stone.
I don't think he cared too muchabout skateboarding.

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
But did he know the scenario?

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
But he was a cool guy , so he knew the scenario.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
So he knew, when you submitted those photos, what was
going on.
And he just went ah, whatever,let's just go, let's run them.

Speaker 3 (01:38:48):
Yeah, there was some sort of like lack of value.

Speaker 2 (01:38:50):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:38:50):
There, so you can't yeah, there was some sort of
like lack of.
I'm trying to bail you out ofhere.
Yeah, I don't know there wassome breakdown in communication
that might have been on my part,but man, I reckon like I was
just so like I also smoked a lotback then just in the green
room all the time.
Oh yeah, Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
I don't think, like I forgot, you were a stoner.
Yep, is that phase of your lifeover or you still get phased?

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
Well, that's a that phase ended for a long time and
then like more, like with themedicinal.
You know, like medicinals it'sa whole different thing now.
So I have, like I do have a, Ido smoke up, and certainly not
like I used to, no way.

Speaker 2 (01:39:31):
No way For medicinal reasons.
With medicinal what?

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
yeah, this is I think I really have anything wrong
with me.
But yeah, it is for medicinalpurposes.

Speaker 2 (01:39:40):
You, have a prescription yes hey, I think
like if that's, if that's thethe loophole that we have to to
make cannabis legal.
I mean, I don't smoke marijuana, but I do think it should be
legal.
I agree you know, I can'tbelieve it's not legal.
So that's great that this isthe new.
This is how they have to do itand it's accessible now for

(01:40:03):
people that actually need it,you know.

Speaker 3 (01:40:05):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, it's got amazing medicinal
qualities it really does.

Speaker 2 (01:40:10):
Just don't abuse it.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
Yes, no, I think like .
Yeah, I never thought we'd beliving like in this era.
I was watching the Dolphinsfootball game at the start of
the year.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:40:23):
a shit name for a rugby league team.

Speaker 3 (01:40:24):
Alternaleaf is the major sponsor.
Seeing Alternaleaf, yeah, likeon their around the All around,
like because you, they use thosedigital billboards.
So there was.
And then you know, like theaverage punter out there
probably doesn't know whatalternative is, you know, and
it's medicinal.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Like that's my hookup .
Yeah, yeah, all right, let'shave a taller break.
This is a common podcastproblem.

Speaker 3 (01:40:48):
We all okay.
So yeah, I'm coming back.
I was just talking about like Iwas like I was just saying
telling shannon how I also wentto america when I was 18, so it
was my first year out of highschool.
That same year, like I tookthat photo of danny way doing
like the japan air at darlingharbor, like he came out with
chris miller for the amazingwhen I shot the center spread

(01:41:10):
with slam was like my firstpublished photos and things like
that.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
You want to talk about that too?
Remind me.

Speaker 3 (01:41:16):
Yeah, so I went over to America for like two or three
months, like when I was 18, andyeah, sort of just came back
like sort of a different person,like something, could sort of
change in kind of like yeah,just I don't know, it's like

(01:41:39):
that sort of like you'd pin itdown to like sort of like you
know, when you're going throughadolescence or whatever, and you
just your temperament andthings like that change, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:49):
Well, your eyes had been opened to the.

Speaker 3 (01:41:51):
I don't know, but I didn't see anything too
confrontational in america.
America is a completely like wewent to like san diego, la san
francisco, saw things like likein sf, like you'd see what, like
I've never seen like povertybefore, you know.
Like you know again, like itwas um, like the recession of
the early 90s and things likethat.
But, um, yeah, I don, I don'tknow.

(01:42:12):
And as I was saying, like I wastelling, I was just talking
about saying that, like when Iwas in year 10, like a couple of
kids I went to school with,like I was pretty good friends
with one of these kids it waslike because I used to get
called Booger, which was mynickname, but anyway, these two
kids, like that I went to schoolwith, jumped off the Harbour

(01:42:33):
Bridge.
So we all went into school onMonday morning and we had like
yeah, it was just I don't know.
I think things like that cansort of affect you in life.

Speaker 4 (01:42:45):
Was one of the kids, the one that came up with the
nickname Booger.

Speaker 3 (01:42:48):
Yeah, yeah, that was Matthew Johnson, yeah, yeah, so
I don't know Stuck with that.
Yeah, that was Matthew Johnson,yeah, yeah, so I don't know,
it's stuck with you.
Yeah, that's where that.
Yeah, so I don't mind, like ifsomeone like Glenn Scott or you
know, like those guys, then likeit's endearing to hear them say
it.
Yeah, because it's like I'veyeah, yeah, I went to school

(01:43:09):
with those guys.
Yeah, I went to school withthose guys.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
It deeply affected you for many years.
You think, or still affects you, that tragic incident.

Speaker 3 (01:43:17):
It doesn't affect me anymore, but like I just think
it must have done, like, donesomething to my confidence.
It's done something you knowLike reduce your confidence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting.
Yeah, I'd sort of relate thatto why I stopped skating for a
year and I sort of wanted to goto university, things like that.

(01:43:38):
Like it sort of you know like,yeah, just did, oh man.
Yeah, yeah, that was a longtime ago though.
We're talking like 35 years agoor something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
Thanks for sharing it .
30 years ago yeah.
Thanks for sharing it 30 yearsago.
Yeah, thanks for sharing it.
And you just mentioned yourfirst published photos.
Yeah, yeah, like tell us thatstory, because I know there's a
story.
So you submitted some photos toSlam for the first time.

Speaker 3 (01:44:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
Yeah, and what happened?

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
So with the Danny Way and the.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Yeah, were they the first photos you ever submitted?

Speaker 3 (01:44:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:14):
Photo of Danny Way skating at Darling Harbour.

Speaker 3 (01:44:18):
Yeah, so the first photos I ever submitted were it
was the yeah, it was the DannyWay, chris Miller, like Tarson
Bend, pappas demos down atDarling Harbour and also around
the same time I went toMelbourne for they have like a
competition at Prahran like itwas a Verton Street competition

(01:44:41):
Rudy Johnson came out for Blind,that's right.
Yeah, rudy Johnson came out andso and I shot like pics of
again, it would have been TarzanBen, it would have been Ryan
Denerez as well.
There there were people likethat skating and I shot a photo

(01:45:02):
of Troy Amahony doing like apaddler's backside disaster,
like on the vert ramp, and thatwas used on the cover of the
Slam magazine.
And then that photo of Denny,like a photo of Denny Wade,
doing a Japan air at DarlingHarbour, was used in the Santa
spread.
So they were the first photos Iever had published, ever and it
was the first time you'dsubmitted to a mag.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
Yeah, yeah yeah, that's pretty crazy.
What a good start.

Speaker 3 (01:45:26):
Yeah, it was funny because that one like if you
have a look back at the gymyou'd notice like it was the
first issue of slam I everbought too but how way?
there was, like in the slam thatcame out before that.
There's a photo that scottneedham took at the darling
harbour demo I think of maybelike um, of like it might be

(01:45:50):
like danny way doing a very old540 or something like that.
Either way, like yeah but it'sfunny.
But my photo still gotpublished, like on the cover, on
the center spread of themagazine, like the following
issue yeah, well, things weren'tas instantaneous back then
either.

Speaker 4 (01:46:04):
You know, like if you had a roll of film and it was,
you know some of the photos werefrom the year before.
You know in in, including inThrasher and Transworld and
stuff like that, and things werechanging so quickly so boards
would look different.
You know you'd see photos.
Yeah, you know.
You look at questionable videoand Danny Way is still writing
blind and H Street boards insome of the footage.
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:46:26):
Crazy.
I'll give you the perspectiveof like how the state of
magazines as well, and you wouldknow this is like they'll half
like.
If you picked up a slam backlike that Denny Way issue, the
one I'm talking about with theTroy Mahoney on the cover in
Denny Way a lot of the photos inthat would have been submitted
by American photographers aswell.
Like half the issue would havebeen like photos by Tobin,

(01:46:47):
yeeland and Dave Swift andSherman.
Yeah, exactly yeah, there wasjust no photographers in
Australia.

Speaker 2 (01:46:54):
Yeah, I'm actually sitting here thinking man.
I wish I got into photographyat that time.
You know what.
You said something to me onceI'll never forget I went on a
shoot with you when you shot thecover of my friend Johnny
O'Connor from Vaucluse.
Yeah, he's champion, Shout outto.

Speaker 3 (01:47:07):
Johnny man, he's champion Shout out to Johnny man
.

Speaker 2 (01:47:10):
he's such a kind soul .

Speaker 3 (01:47:11):
He was such a good dude, and he's brother's
champion as well.

Speaker 2 (01:47:14):
He's a twin.
Yeah, those guys.
Yeah, he actually reached outto me recently.
Anyway, yeah, and you shot acover shot of him doing, yeah,
like a frontside-bluntsidetransfer on this flat rail, and
I was watching you and I wastalking and I think I said
something like, oh, what aboutthis angle?
And you were like, hey, shannon, I think you've got a really

(01:47:34):
good eye for photography,because, like, I was like
putting my two cents in and Idon't know if you were being
like, just like, you know, nice,or but or I was pissing you off
and you just wanted to get meanyway.

Speaker 3 (01:47:47):
I was like, yeah, I was like you said that Did you
point something out and like, oh, would that be not bad from
sort of did I go over and like.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
Something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:56):
yeah, Sit over and try and shoot a photo from where
you Something like that Fromwhat you suggested.

Speaker 2 (01:48:00):
And you were like, yeah, yeah.
And you were like, yeah, you'vegot a good eye for this, don't
you?
And I was like, oh yeah, thanks, man.

Speaker 3 (01:48:08):
Yeah, you probably did.
Was he just being nice Nah?

Speaker 2 (01:48:11):
He's probably thinking don't tell me to do a
fucking job.

Speaker 3 (01:48:13):
Nah, I wouldn't have.
I would have probably.
No, I think I would have beengenuine saying that I can't
remember.
Hey, I remember.
Like, excuse me.
Yeah, I remember shootingvaguely.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
I remember shooting that cover, are you okay?

Speaker 3 (01:48:29):
Yeah, yeah, I remember shooting.
The cover Was that Universityof New South Wales was it yeah?
Ed Randwick.
Yeah yeah, I know the exactpicture.
It was that little, it was likea low rail, it was easy to get
onto and then it dropped off.
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:48:43):
Yeah, like, do you like, I guess, like we've been
talking for I don't know, likebetween an hour and a half two
hours.
But you know, when you doreflect on all of that period of
your life, because so much hashappened before then and after,
then you know, would you saythat it was a good time in your

(01:49:03):
life overall, yeah, or is therepainful memories associated with
it?

Speaker 3 (01:49:08):
No, Like, skateboarding photography is
like, that's my, they're my bestmemories of photography.
There's no doubt about that.
Like, yeah, that whole period,that being exposed to, like even
before I picked up a camera,like looking at like Sturt's
photos or, you know, like SpikeJonze's photos, Grant Brinton's

(01:49:28):
photos, Bryce Kinnott's photos,Luke Ogden's photos, Steve
Sherman, you know you just allof those names.
You never forget those namesbecause they just took wonderful
pictures and they kind ofexposed you to something that
forever changes your life.
And skateboarding photographyis just so diverse and yeah, and

(01:49:53):
so creative.
I feel so fortunate to comefrom that, from skateboarding.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
So the book you've made.
You've given me this beautifulgift tonight.
I mean I'll cherish it forever.
I literally will.
It's called Backlight in theGrain Angels of Skateboarding.

Speaker 3 (01:50:12):
Angels of Skateboarding.

Speaker 2 (01:50:13):
Angels of Skateboarding.
So do you feel like when youcreated this, it's an ode to
that period of your life?

Speaker 3 (01:50:22):
Yes, that's my PhD.
That's like my master's.
Really.
I didn't come out with amaster's project in the actual
psychology course, but thatwould be my equivalent there.

Speaker 2 (01:50:37):
I generated everything into that.
This is kind of like symbolicof the stamp of that time time
stamp.

Speaker 3 (01:50:43):
Yes, yes, yes, all encapsulating.
Amazing yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):
Yeah, emotional when you look at it sometimes.

Speaker 3 (01:50:55):
Or was the process of creating, an emotional process
of creating.
It was like it's yeah, I can't,it's just um, it's just
something I'm really like.
It's a body of work that I'mproud of yeah kind of like it.
It wasn't driven by.
Like most of those photos, mostof the photographs like the

(01:51:15):
cover photograph from the bookof Kai Stanley Olley and the
pole with Devo on the background, that was used on the cover of
a magazine and then there's,like it was, on the cover of one
of those Australianskateboarding poster issues but
pretty much like none of thephotos, like about 95% of the
photos in that book have neverbeen published because they were
shot with the intention of theart project that I was talking

(01:51:38):
about a little bit earlier.
Wow, when I was, when I poached.
yeah, when I poached skin, youknow like Suicide Towers of
Adrian Lopez doing that frontboard and all that Like I had in
mind.

Speaker 2 (01:51:47):
So you were sitting on.
You were sitting on this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:51:53):
Yeah, I didn't have like the focal point wasn't.
Like it wasn't meant to be abook at that time, like I wanted
.
There was a photographer calledLewis Morley.
He took a famous photographlike of this beautiful woman
naked like with her elbowsleaning over the back of a chair
, like she's involved in likethe Profumo affair.
So she was like an escort thatwas involved like an alleged

(01:52:16):
affair like a Russian diplomathad with her, like it was big
news.
So Lewis Morley like took thatphotograph of her.
So it's a really well-knownphoto I was meant to have.
So at the time, like this is inthe 90s, lewis Morley was still
alive and he had an art galleryin Annandale and I took some

(01:52:37):
skateboarding photos and this isall before like I'd only you
know like this was theconception of shooting, yes,
shooting this like black andwhite art project.
And he said he pulled asidelike I had like a whole bunch of
photos like photos of likestreet people in Sydney and
buildings and I had some skatingones.

(01:52:58):
And he pulled the skatingphotos out and he goes these are
fantastic, come back with likea box full of prints and we'll
do an exhibition.
And I never went back and soand he passed away like about 10
years ago, and then yeah likeit just ended up becoming the

(01:53:18):
book, basically that one of PatDarfee.

Speaker 2 (01:53:21):
I like it.
It's hard because this is anaudio recording.
It's just hard to.
Yeah, we're looking at the bookat the same time it's hard for
people to really understand howinsanely like the moments you've
captured are just so unique.
And.
I guess the big question.
I had like so that cover shot.
You chose that photo of KaiStanley to be the cover of this

(01:53:44):
book.
But if you go through the book,there's so many amazing photos.
Why did you choose that phototo be the cover?
Yeah, yeah, what stood out foryou?
You and what drove thatdecision?

Speaker 3 (01:54:00):
It's probably the best photo in the book, like
that Ollie, in terms of thedifficulty.
Yeah, in terms of difficulty,like to be able to like Ollie
pole, like with that gap, likethat, like not many people would
ever be able to do that.
Kai Stanley, like he would bethe most gifted Him he may just

(01:54:25):
be the most gifted skateboarderI ever.

Speaker 2 (01:54:28):
What about Kyle Muskie?
Yeah, oh, wow.

Speaker 3 (01:54:32):
Kai Stanley.
He's incredible.
And then it's got Devo in thebackground and he's kind of
holding a long neck and justBilly.

Speaker 2 (01:54:40):
Harris shout out no negative.

Speaker 3 (01:54:41):
Yeah, crow War Ride yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
But I mean, yeah, okay, so you picked it because
you just think like it was justsuch a difficult thing to do.
But I mean just from an artperspective, I mean I feel like
there's more artistic photos inhere.

Speaker 3 (01:54:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think I probably didn't want, I don't
know.
I just love that photo, yeah,and I didn't have too many like.
Yeah, I just think, like davidon the background, and I just,
and also I remember, like whenwe went out and shot that photo
that day.
Steve Tierney's also there, buthe's behind me holding a slave
or something.
Slaves keep coming back into it.

(01:55:18):
There's always a slave.
We'll talk about slaves.
I remember I was shooting picsand I'd always grab someone and
say, hey, man, can you just holdthis flash for a few minutes
while I shoot this pic?
And half an hour later they'restill holding the flash with a
sore arm.

Speaker 2 (01:55:35):
Chima at Prudential.
Yeah, oh my God, and he wouldhave been what Looks like, maybe
12 or 13.

Speaker 3 (01:55:41):
He wouldn't have been like, I reckon that was Even
younger.
Yeah, he's only a little kid.
He wouldn't even be like shopsponsored or nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:55:48):
I mean I wonder if he was ollieing the Prudential
double set.
Yeah, I mean I wonder if he wasollieing the Prudential.

Speaker 3 (01:55:51):
Double Set.
Nah, he was trying to like 50,that ledge.

Speaker 2 (01:55:53):
Did you ever ollie the Prudential Double Set?
No, I ollied it, me, and myfriend Duncan Guzeff ollied it
one night.
So you only.
Do you remember Duncan Cam'sbrother?
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Yeah, he's an amazing skater.

Speaker 3 (01:56:06):
So you only ever ollied it once, once Just
ollie'd it.
Yeah See, I never ollie'd itand I could ollie it.
I probably could have done.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
Did you ollie it?
No, no.

Speaker 3 (01:56:14):
I don't know why, like just Kind of like I ollie'd
down 10 stairs and stuff likethat, but like I don't know why
I didn't Just a straight ollie.
I don't know Never did it.
It's pathetic.

Speaker 2 (01:56:25):
No, yeah, I mean Alex Smith was the first to kickflip
, it wasn't he?

Speaker 3 (01:56:30):
Yeah, he would have been the first.

Speaker 2 (01:56:32):
Jim fact checker?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, I'm like yes, guys, it'samazing having Jim here and
switch 360 flip it.

Speaker 3 (01:56:40):
I saw him, he switch traded man.
I don't know if he everfinished.
I've watched him and he waslanding it Land roll, fall off,
Land roll, fall off, Land roll.
And this is like 1992 orsomething Like some ridiculous
time period, Maybe, no, maybeI'm exaggerating there.
I think like 93 maybe Likepretty early in the yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:57:05):
Around the same time that he 360 flipped into the pit
Like that same era.

Speaker 3 (01:57:08):
Yeah, around that time, yeah, yeah, and he was
gnarly and he would also likeJust do a switch 5-iver on that
prudential.
Like you know, the ledge aroundthe corner.

Speaker 4 (01:57:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:57:17):
Like switch fiver on it.
Remember him.
He had Alex Smith had real bigcalf muscles, Right.
You guys, any of you guysremember that?
No, no, yeah, people would know.
Yeah, like they were liketennis balls coming out of the
back of his legs.

Speaker 2 (01:57:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:57:33):
He was gnarly.

Speaker 2 (01:57:34):
He was gnarly, Switch fly though he was definitely
ahead of the game.
Yeah, yeah, you know, there'salways that person, every
generation, who's just had thatextra X factor.
He had an X factor.
Yeah, yeah, what other?
Skaters that you've worked withhave had.
You just see the X factor?
I mean, we just looked at Chima.
Chima had an X factor about him, davo had an X factor about him

(01:57:57):
.

Speaker 3 (01:57:57):
Yeah, davo for sure.
Everything he'd done.

Speaker 2 (01:57:59):
You know who else would you Would you love him?

Speaker 3 (01:58:01):
I was thinking about this Like Brett Margaritas.

Speaker 2 (01:58:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58:04):
Like he can't do anything wrong on a skateboard.
Everything and everything.
Yeah, and it's that X?
I don't know, it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:58:13):
They have something different, right, they have
something different.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
Yeah, and even his approach to skating and his
understanding of it.
It's sort of like because we'reall sort of cut from
skateboarding, but yeah, Inoticed with him he was like a
higher level with it.
Yeah, because I used to livewith Brett, because he lived
with me and him like livedtogether in Petersham.

Speaker 2 (01:58:31):
Yeah, I feel like you speak of Brett quite fondly.

Speaker 3 (01:58:37):
Yeah, because he's wonderful, do you?

Speaker 2 (01:58:38):
consider him as someone that's been very
integral in your life.

Speaker 3 (01:58:41):
Yeah, yeah, he did heaps for me, like when I was
kind of Brett's I don't know howto he's real he's.
How can I say, like he's verystable Brett, is he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):
It's like Jim in my life he's stable, he's great.
Oh, thank you, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:59:00):
You're the same back to me too.
Oh really, yeah, oh man.

Speaker 2 (01:59:04):
I've never been regarded as stable, ever.

Speaker 3 (01:59:06):
Thank you, I'll take that I was going to say.
So coming back to like, there'scertain skateboarders, like
Blake Convey in Canberra likeKazza in.
Queensland Davo like here I'mthinking like then there's like
Dom Kekic.

Speaker 2 (01:59:22):
Dom Kekic.

Speaker 3 (01:59:22):
There's certain people and they're just
brilliant at skateboarding.

Speaker 2 (01:59:26):
Dave.
Bodnar Yep spin I alwaysthought he was incredible
Actually Jake Brown.
I remember the first time Iseen Jake Brown skate a vert
ramp.
It was a skateboard board ramp.
They set it up in Fairy Meadowin Wollongong.
Jake Brown turned up and he wasa little young kid and just the
way he was floating.

Speaker 3 (01:59:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59:42):
And popping his ears and like actually ollieing into
them and just it was like oh, xFactor.

Speaker 3 (01:59:48):
Wow, you remember I know different.
I used to skate Fairfield Likewe used to go to like Fairfield
Mini Ramps, yeah.
So I remember like, I vividlyremember like I would have been
like, because I'm like a goodtwo or three years older than
like Spin.
I'm probably a couple of yearsolder than Spin and Jake, but I
was like in year 11 in highschool going there like on a
Thursday night to skate, likeout at Fairfield, and Spin and

(02:00:13):
Jake were there and they werelike little kids.
They might even be like morethan they, might even be like
four years younger than me, Ican't.

Speaker 4 (02:00:22):
But either way, they were just these little skate
rats and Jake's from Cronullaright.

Speaker 3 (02:00:25):
Yeah, yeah, this is out near Fairfield, yeah.
Because that's what you did At10 o'clock like on a Thursday
night or something you know, butI just remember like yeah, how
incredible like they were both,like I always thought like Spin
was like brilliant, it wasincredible.

Speaker 2 (02:00:43):
And stylish.

Speaker 4 (02:00:44):
They both had just natural style and Jake yeah, you
shot that great photo of JakeBrown dreads out with the
superstars on.
It's like an indie nose bone orsomething like that.

Speaker 3 (02:00:54):
The frontside bone hair yeah.
Frontside bone hair, yeah yeah.
At Bondi on the old vert ramp.

Speaker 4 (02:00:58):
Yeah, and he just looks like.
I mean, he looks like somebodyfrom like a Cypress Hill video
clip or something.
It was one of the freshestphotos in my mind Amazing.

Speaker 3 (02:01:08):
Yeah, he might have been.
I never really hung out withJake but I've known him for a
long time again because from theFairfield days and things like
that.
But he might have been in therave scene back then.
Yeah, it was pretty hardcore.

Speaker 2 (02:01:20):
Oh man, how spectacular dude.

Speaker 3 (02:01:23):
The two of those I just always tell people because
then what Jake went on toachieve in skateboarding, like
everyone around the world sawhim do that like that big air,
the mega slam.
The bottomed out.
Yeah, the mega plug, the megaplug, yes, but he just
accomplished so much and it'sfunny how like.

(02:01:44):
And then I think of Spin'sbrilliance on the skateboard as
well.

Speaker 2 (02:01:48):
Yeah, it's funny.
I was talking to someone aboutJake's mega plug, like I mean
it's good to see him get thisglobal recognition, but in the
weirdest way, like it's almostunfortunate because like that
kind of was what he gotrecognised for on a large scale.

Speaker 3 (02:02:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
Because he was so much more than that like you
know, yeah, I don't know, but hesort of became a household name
because of that one slam.

Speaker 3 (02:02:14):
He was like the first .
When I think about it, likethat was like the first one of
the first big YouTube sort ofkind of where everyone's it was
Went viral, went viral, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02:24):
It was such a viral moment though I mean I still
look at that and just like Ican't believe what I'm seeing A
big slam and the fact, hesurvived and walked away.

Speaker 3 (02:02:32):
It's insane Every now and then, like I watch some of
the X.
I don't know, I don't reallywatch any of it, I just capture
glimpses of it and it'll be Jakedoing something gnarly.
Oh, did he do the 720 Ollie?
Yeah, he did that 720 Ollieover a gap, didn't he Over the
mega gap?

Speaker 4 (02:02:47):
Like Nally, absolutely, isn't that what?

Speaker 2 (02:02:50):
he did before he plugged it.
He was one of the pioneers.
He did a 720.
720.

Speaker 3 (02:02:55):
Ollie.

Speaker 2 (02:02:57):
Before he hit the quarter and plugged it right.
That's what he did Insane.

Speaker 3 (02:03:01):
But yeah, it's a catch.
So I guess someone like I said,on one hand like he's
recognised for plugging that bigair, but he also did a 720
Ollie across the mega gap.

Speaker 2 (02:03:12):
Commentary is epic because Tony Hawk's commentating
Everyone's like oh my God, he'salmost died.
The first thing Tony Hawk saysin the commentary is like I
can't believe you landed that720.
Like he didn't even refer tothe big slam, he was still
stoked on the 720.
So good, yeah.
But everyone else is like, ohmy God, he almost died.
Yeah, but everyone else is like, oh my God, you almost died,

(02:03:34):
yeah, anyway.
Anyway, in stark contrast tothat book that I was just
holding, I'm holding anotherbook that you've made and it's
called Starting Blocks the OceanBaths of Newcastle and
Merriweather by Aaron.
Brown.
Now, I mean, if I hold thesetwo books together, like what a
contrast, yeah, you know.
So let's talk about thebackstory of this book.

(02:03:55):
So why did you feel compelled?

Speaker 3 (02:03:59):
So with the Ocean Bar's book I was basically like
wandering around Newcastle likejust shooting street photos.
So I'd come into Newcastle andI'd because I didn't really have
like a focal point forphotography like anymore, like I
didn't have a job at newspaperLike I sort of do like photo

(02:04:22):
jobs but this is photo jobs, youknow what I mean Like it's not
something that I particularlyenjoyed doing.
I wasn't shooting skateboardinganymore.
So I started going intoNewcastle and just wandering
around the foreshore and alsolike wandering like through the
streets.
So I'd go for like walks upKing Street, hunter Street and
just like looking for likethings in the late afternoon.

(02:04:47):
That stood out because I likedthe way that the sun sort of
recedes, like in the west, andit kind of lights everything up
like a candle.
So I found myself down at theocean barbs and I was like
sitting like at the ocean barbsand I was looking at like on the

(02:05:07):
eastern seaboard like andthere's these starting blocks.
So there are these whitetombstone-looking blocks with
black numbers on it.
Basically the swimmers do lapsbetween these starting blocks,
but the way the light hits theseblocks it just lights them up
like a candle.
So I was just captivated by thelight, and more so.

(02:05:31):
I was captivated by theswimmers Not so much swimming,
but just portraits of them atthese starting blocks, doing
whatever they do like, sittingthere thinking I don't know,
maybe adjusting their goggles asthey're about to swim another
lap, taking a breath of air, andthe more I started going down

(02:05:55):
there photographing, like justdriven by the light, I started
to develop like sort of aninterest in in this culture of
swimming, like the same, as youknow, I'll develop an interest
in skateboarding or surfing oranything.
And then I started documentingit, so trying to capture, um,
different aspects of the cultureof ocean baths, swimming that's

(02:06:16):
unique to newcastle and and themerry weather, ocean baths, and
, um, what unfolded was it was a, was a, was a book, a hundred
page book, um, yeah, can youtalk about the camera that you
used to shoot that whole book aswell?
yeah, yeah.
So with the Starting Blocksbook I used a.

(02:06:39):
I principally like used themedium format like studio camera
.
It's called a Mamiya RZ67.
So it's a camera that's reallydesigned to be used like with
studio lights, like on a tripod.
But, yeah, I sort of I usedthat camera because, yeah, I
used that camera because, yeah,I wanted to shoot like a larger
format to try and get like moredetail, more particularly with

(02:07:02):
the portraits to begin with, butthen I ended up just using that
camera to shoot the majority ofthe book and then I also used
like a large format camera.
So again, that's an older stylecamera that shoots 4x5 inch film
, which is film that's roughlylike the size of like a compact
disc cover, you know, like it'sa fairly big image.

(02:07:23):
And I was using that camerabecause I could shoot infrared
and things like that.
So basically, I was interestedin looking at how people's
bodies react to heat whenthey're in the water.
So through using infrared filmI was able to blacken the sky,

(02:07:45):
blacken the water, bring out theclouds and make people look
like white floating objects.
It's really cool.

Speaker 2 (02:07:52):
I love the night, like the night photos as well.

Speaker 3 (02:07:55):
Yeah, that's your wall there.

Speaker 2 (02:07:57):
Dude, I know I was trying to show it to Jim like
hint hint.
Jim See that what's going on.
Come on, man.

Speaker 3 (02:08:02):
I walked around.

Speaker 2 (02:08:03):
I flashed that he doesn't want to shoot it.

Speaker 3 (02:08:06):
I flashed that wall about 40 or 50 times with a
speed light so I painted thewall.

Speaker 2 (02:08:11):
What do you mean?

Speaker 3 (02:08:16):
So the wall, what do you mean?
So that's like so there's aphoto we're looking at it's of
an elevated like ocean barbswall.
So it's this big wall and it'sgot steps so people can sit on
it and sunbake and that sort ofthing, and just look at what's
going on in the pools around.
It's a big, long wall.
It's about 25 meters long.
It's amazing.
But I put the camera on atripod and I did like a
15-minute exposure at night andthat wall would usually be black

(02:08:37):
, like you wouldn't see anything.
But I walked around and paintedthe wall with a flash.
So you just walk every metre,you go bang with the flash, bang
, bang, bang, bang, bang bang.
So I flashed it about 50 times.

Speaker 2 (02:08:48):
So it actually looks bright.

Speaker 3 (02:08:51):
It looks like a shot with just one flash, but it was.
I had two flashes, like I washolding like two Colt guns, you
know, like one on the other,bang bang bang bang bang bang
bang.

Speaker 2 (02:09:02):
I just walk around, just light the whole thing up,
dude, there's a bit of a geniusvibe here.

Speaker 3 (02:09:07):
Oh well, I sort of got the funny thing with that
was like Gabe Morford and LanceDawes and remember that Santa
Rosa skate park.
Like they did that once, butthey did it way better than me
Like they did it with colourfilm and they used coloured gels
, so like they've got this.

(02:09:27):
It's in one of those old slapmagazines, remember.
It would be like their stilllife picture at the end of the
magazine, or Santa Rosa skatepark and it's lit up with blue,
yellow, red, green and they didthe same thing probably.
They just walked around flashingit.
That type of thing.

Speaker 2 (02:09:42):
It's a technique, right yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:09:44):
You understand the principles of photography and
the way that light sort of goesinto a camera, like whether it's
hitting a digital sensor orwhether it's hitting a sheet of
film.
It's just the same thing, andlights are exactly the same as
well.
Interesting it doesn't?
Those fundamentals ofphotography haven't changed one
bit.
Did you know that, Jim?

Speaker 4 (02:10:05):
I mean, I wouldn't have articulated it like that.
He's way more switched on.

Speaker 2 (02:10:10):
You have heard of that technique.

Speaker 4 (02:10:13):
Yeah, but like, maybe not even as somebody that's
interested in, maybe somebodythat's interested in photography
as somebody that's interestedin photography, not somebody as
a photographer Okay, Because I'minterested in it as an art, as
an observer as well.
More so than somebody that youknow.

Speaker 2 (02:10:28):
I only really take skate photos yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:10:32):
But I consume all photography, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:10:38):
Cool and yeah, but I consume all photography.
You know, cool, yeah, there'sno, there's no like, no, no, no
rule.
There's no rules to to what youcan do or right or wrong way of
doing something, and you justsort of um, yeah, you can do
anything you want.

Speaker 2 (02:10:49):
Really, yeah, I mean I feel the power, I feel the
passion in in actually with theskate stuff, like I know that
it's like you know you'veaccumulated those images over
years of shooting photos forvarious reasons, but for some
reason, with the Starting Blocksbook, I don't think you realize
it's actually made an impact onme and on my children.
So for example.

(02:11:11):
Can I put it in context reallyquick?
So context is you know, I'mliving in a place where I'm
unfamiliar.
I moved to Newcastle to becloser to my children, so it's
not home for me, and so spendingtime with my children is very
important, but I don't feel likeI have a solid home here.
So we found this common place,places where we really have a

(02:11:34):
good time together as a smallfamily, and it's the ocean baths
.
So when Jim gave me this bookand I had it laying around the
house, the kids were justenamored with it.
That's interesting, isn't it?
So do you ever consider theimpact you're having on people
without even knowing?

Speaker 3 (02:11:52):
Never, never.
I feel like what you're tellingme like makes me feel like I
really appreciate, like that Ireally do, like because you
sometimes feel that you don'tyou just sort of I'm just
pumping out projects, pumpingout I wouldn't say I don't pump
them out either, really, butlike I sort of have this idea in

(02:12:15):
mind and like I have a project,like the starting point of that
was a project, you know, and Igave myself X amount of time to
shoot it, and then I kind of putthe book together, processed
all the film, did all of this,all of this, all of this, all of
this, and then done, I finishedit.
Now and then I sort of move onto the next one and I don't
actually sort of like take timeto stand back and recognise the

(02:12:36):
impact that's made on anyonebecause I didn't have a book
launch, I didn't have anexhibition, I just I don't know
like.

Speaker 2 (02:12:43):
I just what's driving it?
Like the potential for money,no just pure passion?

Speaker 3 (02:12:51):
Yeah, there's no.
No, I couldn't care less aboutmoney for that Photography like.
And then, yeah, the money Imean the aspect of money that's
just starting to become a littlebit too expensive to buy film
now, like which is sort of justbordering on insanity, to kind
of try.
And that's only recent, though.
But I was also trying to thinkI was thinking like I was so

(02:13:14):
passionate I wouldn't saypassionate, say passionate but
like my first 10 like remember Iwas talking about how I was a
newspaper photographer.
You could bear in mind, likewhen digital cameras and things
like that came out, I was one ofthe first photographers that
started using like full digitalsetup.
Like I had a digital slr camera, like around the time that the
sydney olympics were on, likethat was, and then we've, and

(02:13:37):
also stopped, sort of stopped,taking skating photos around
that time.
But you got to bear in mind,say from about the year 2000 and
2000 and 2008, like digitalcameras weren't that fantastic?
Film cameras were still kind ofum, the go-to if you were going
to like be publishing likeimagery, like full bleeds,

(02:13:59):
things like that.
But I'd been shooting, like I'dstopped shooting like film
completely and was just workingwith digital cameras, and I
guess, like I sort of realizedthat there was a lot of there
was the tactile approach tophotography, like processing

(02:14:20):
film, looking at negs throughloops and then using enlargers
and things like that, puttingyou know like paper through
chemical trays and coming outwith a print.
All these like facets ofphotography that basically
didn't.
They didn't exist in my worldanymore, because I wasn't doing
that anymore and I realised thatthere was something that was

(02:14:42):
completely empty.
So I started like I dusted offmy film cameras and started
using them again, also because Irealised that film's finite now
, so there's probably going tobe only like I just tried to get
what I could out of it for thelast 10 years of why they're
making decent film.
Ultimately, though, it won't bemanufactured, and if it is, it

(02:15:05):
would be shit.
It won't be like Fuji and Kodakand stuff doing it anymore?
Yeah, I don't think they will beanyway.
Yeah, yes, I just wanted to getas I just wanted to use, I just
wanted to shoot.

Speaker 2 (02:15:17):
as much of it as I can, because I realised I missed
it so much You're not reallyconsidering also, yeah, like I
said, the human impact thatyou're having on people
potentially.

Speaker 3 (02:15:27):
I'm hoping, like I feel like what you said to me,
like I appreciate it and the twoof you.

Speaker 2 (02:15:33):
Same with what Jim does too like you know, and any
artist or writer or creative.
I wonder if they consider thatpotentially they're going to
impact someone.

Speaker 3 (02:15:43):
That's the whole.
That's ultimately like.
I think that's what underliesit all Is it.
Yeah, like I don't see thepoint in like, if you can sort
of like make an impression uponsomebody like you've done, it
can only make you feel good inlife, you know, and sort of a

(02:16:06):
but yeah, yeah, put it this way.

Speaker 4 (02:16:16):
You know, for me being a fan of yours before I
met you, I had like and I canaccess it now in my brain I have
a back catalog of your photosin my mind right without ever
having me, like, met you inperson.
It that's crazy.
So something that you kind ofsat down, framed up, took a

(02:16:39):
photo and film, had it developedand published in a
skateboarding magazine, like wasso influential on me in the way
that I saw skateboarding theworld, sydney as a city as well,
that it actually like there'slike a folder and same with
amelia stuff too.
But you two like definitelyalmost framed the way that I see

(02:17:03):
cities wow you know what I meanyeah, that's awesome
like I feel like when I sawamelia's the 360 flip down um,
I've said this before that 360flip of alex smith down into the
pit, that cover it made me feellike, uh, it was the first time
I really saw like sydneyrepresented as like this kind of

(02:17:27):
cosmopolitan city in theskateboarding sense.
I know it had been other work,like in the art world and stuff,
and I feel the same way withyour photography as well, like
there's this kind of way thatyou guys elevated sydney to be
taken seriously almost as like aserious city in like in the
skateboarding world yeah and itgave it, like this certain

(02:17:48):
gravitas that I don't, you knowas a historian of these things
and going back and looking at it, there's all these amazing
photos, obviously before thatstuff.
But to me, like yeah, it justultimately yeah, fundamentally
changed the way that I like lookat and perceive cities that
I've travelled like all aroundthe world to, and even the way
that I interact with them, likegoing to look at places that

(02:18:10):
I've seen in your photos, justso I can say that I've seen it
in person.
You know, like that's a prettyamazing thing and now like it's
kind of then trippy to befriends with you now as well, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (02:18:24):
Yeah, I just thought you saw a lot of loss for words
because, like, I think the whole, like what photographer doesn't
want to make an impact on?
That's why you take photos inthe first place, you know, and
to inspire or to sort of kind ofyeah, yeah, man, that makes me

(02:18:44):
feel good, you know, like Ireally appreciate both you,
shannon, and you, Jim, for whatyou've said.
It's awesome but kind of lostfor words for it, but certainly
like I would have loved to havelike Apprentice or something
like that, like I sort of passon like yeah, because newspapers
and stuff I never really had,like I never really had like
Apprentice's on to me and stufflike that I would have been

(02:19:06):
pretty good, I reckon what'snext like what's in the works.

Speaker 2 (02:19:09):
You think you have something else going on.
Any other projects in the works, the projects?
So I didn't tell you.
So I did.

Speaker 3 (02:19:14):
You think you had something else going on, Any
other projects in the works, theproject.
So I didn't tell you so I did.
So this will come back.
So I'll come back like sevenyears ago Like I had a job, like
I worked in the NRMA for abouta year, like I worked in road
service.
So I was taking like all thesephone calls like on, you know,
to like send out a tow truck orsend a mechanic out trying, you

(02:19:36):
know like help people out.
Yeah, Ran out of fuel, yeah,Sitting in the car.

Speaker 2 (02:19:42):
Are you the last person that would answer the
phone?
Yeah, yeah, yeah Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:19:46):
And then like yeah, and log the road service call.
But what happened when I wasdoing that job?
Right, like it was like NRMA islike New South Wales and you
know like people also break downlike Northern Territory and
other states but I startedgetting these calls, you know,
like someone calling from Cobar,someone calling from Deniliquin

(02:20:07):
, someone calling from likeBroken Hill, and I'm starting
like sitting there, like in thisdull job you know, logging
these breakdown calls.
I'm sort of like listening tothe people on the phone and I'm
sort of just imagining like whatit's like where they are.
So I'm working in NRMA and overthe course of a year, like I'm
taking calls from all over NewSouth Wales, and it sort of just

(02:20:29):
gave me this idea to go out andpursue a project on regional
New South Wales.
I went and bought a four-wheeldrive and I went out camping for
like it's all bush camping type, you know like free camping.
I didn't pay to go do it.
Yeah, you don't have to.

Speaker 2 (02:20:46):
You can just pull up wherever you want.

Speaker 3 (02:20:47):
Really, you can Like I didn't do that that trip.
I sort of stayed in those likewiki camps, free campsites and
all that sort of thing.
I sort of stayed in those likewiki camps, free campsites and
all that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (02:20:56):
But if I'm going to do it again, yeah, you can go
anywhere, just go stay in, likeLakes Beach, lakes Beach car
park or something Like, with aswag or something.

Speaker 3 (02:21:02):
I'm even bolder than that.
I'd fold my rooftop tent out.
Oh, you'd have my nose, yeah,yeah, I think we would just do
it on the side.

Speaker 2 (02:21:09):
Awesome.
Yeah, I see them, but I feelweird being up on the roof.

Speaker 3 (02:21:14):
No, no, no, I mean, are you scared of heights though
?

Speaker 2 (02:21:17):
Yeah, like, do you feel like you're going to roll
off?

Speaker 3 (02:21:19):
Yeah, and that don't happen.
But the thing is like you'vejust got to worry about, like,
when the wind picks up, Ah, youmight be blowing off that roof.

Speaker 2 (02:21:27):
Like what if you're with?
I don't want to ask that.

Speaker 3 (02:21:36):
What if you're with a girl in there or something like
that?
You just don't want to be like.
You don't want the roof of yourcar to collapse.
Very best to just take it easy.
Yeah, Too much downwardpressure, mate.

Speaker 2 (02:21:50):
I just made it silly.

Speaker 3 (02:21:51):
No, no, no so yeah, so I pursued like, so I went out
like, and that was like aproject I did like seven years
ago and that was actually that'sanother book.
It's called Corrugated State.
It's called Corrugated.

Speaker 2 (02:22:07):
State, so you probably made it.

Speaker 3 (02:22:08):
Yeah, I just didn't print that one because I wasn't
really like.

Speaker 2 (02:22:11):
Are you self-funding these?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:22:13):
I just pay for it all myself, like I design it and
just.

Speaker 2 (02:22:16):
And then make a bunch of copies and then try and sell
it to bookshops.

Speaker 3 (02:22:20):
Yeah, I wouldn't.
I don't even really try andsell it, I just make a bunch of
copies.
I haven't been trying to sellthem too much, but yeah, why not
Even just just to recoup yourcosts.
Yeah, just like, just don'tcare Too much.
I don't care about the costs.
Well, I'm not.
It's not driven by like wantingto make a profit out of it, but
it's hard to make a profit outof doing this, not even a profit

(02:22:41):
.

Speaker 2 (02:22:41):
It's a break even.

Speaker 3 (02:22:42):
It's just, I just want to kind of yeah, I don't
mind, like I haven't thrown liketoo much money, but yeah.
So coming back to the questionabout the projects, well, that's
a project from like eight yearsago that really, like, all I
need to do is just print thatbook.
I've still got to like try andtidy up a few things with the

(02:23:03):
introduction and stuff like that.
And that's actually really cool.
And then that book, so and thenI've got another one.
So that was the originaltrilogy was Backlight and the
Green Angels SkateboardingStarting Blocks, the Ocean Bars,
newcastle and Merriweather, andthen Corregated State Regional
Towns of New South Wales Epic.

(02:23:24):
But I've since then got anotherproject, like my current
project is about graffiti, soI'm hoping I'll turn this into a
book because it's looking likethere's going to be four of them
.
What do they call that?
A quintet?

Speaker 2 (02:23:40):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (02:23:41):
Yeah, quartet Four.
Yeah, because I'm going to havethe fourth book and that's
about regional, it's aboutQuartet, quartet.

Speaker 4 (02:23:50):
Quintet, yeah, quintet's five, quin is five?

Speaker 3 (02:23:55):
Oh now, Jim, You've got the wordsmith here, a true
wordsmith here, Quart Quartquarter Quart.
Quartets, quintet.

Speaker 2 (02:24:01):
Quarter an ounce.

Speaker 3 (02:24:04):
You could say quadrology.
So, yeah, there's a project I'mworking on at the moment, like
a current project, which isabout I've been out
photographing like graffiti ontrain carriages.
So I've like focused on aproject that's unique to
Newcastle, like the Hunter area,so I'm photographing like coal
and grain carriages, yeah, sobasically I go to Carrington and

(02:24:25):
Stockton and Mayfield differentplaces the train yards.

Speaker 2 (02:24:29):
So what's drawing you into it?
Is it the contrast between,like a grain carriage, which is
farming, and the urban vibe ofstreet art or graffiti?

Speaker 3 (02:24:44):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:24:45):
Do you think that's what it is is a clash of country
and city?
Man, I haven't.
You can use that in your bio.

Speaker 3 (02:24:54):
Yeah, yeah, I have no idea.
Like it's sort of I just foundmyself doing it Like I'd just be
, I'd just, I'm just curiouslike what's drawing you to that?
Then Like you don't have noidea, because I'm not even
You're not a graffiti guy, noteven into graffiti.

Speaker 4 (02:25:16):
Did you ever I mean, know a lot of the heads that you
were taking photos of?

Speaker 3 (02:25:18):
in the 90s definitely wrote, even if they were just
tagging yeah, like yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:25:22):
What are you drawn to , bizarre?

Speaker 3 (02:25:25):
Yeah, I'd always like , because if you have a piece or
something I'd photograph andthen they might use it in the
background with other photos andthings like that.
I was always taking pictures ofit.
But it's exactly the same thingas the Ocean Barbs book.

(02:25:45):
I just found myself at the sameplace trying to photograph the
same thing and I don't knowreally why I was doing that.
And then after a while, a bodyof work just starts to
materialize and then theprojects form.
It's not actually drivenintentionally by anything, the
project just unfolds haphazardlyor incidentally, or whatever.

(02:26:06):
Yeah, the one thing that wewere talking about this day when
we were talking on the phoneyesterday is that it's the
textured surface of thecarriages that drives this.
Like the graffiti just looksamazing on these brushed steel
train carriages that you see.
It just looks incredible.

(02:26:27):
And then, like with black andwhite photography, like the
whole thing about that, it'sabout the representation of
tonal values to try and give theimage a feel of texture, does
that?
Yeah, dude, that's what theessence of black and white
photography is.
You see it in old photos.
Like Edward West, he took aphoto of a capsicum and it looks

(02:26:51):
like two bodies together.
Or he took a photo of aporcelain toilet bowl and it
just looks like a beautifulfigure.

Speaker 2 (02:26:58):
Like, yeah, it's about, yeah, I don't know I
noticed that actually in yourstarting blocks book there's one
particular photo at mer withthe ocean baths and it's got the
shallow kids pool and then thedeeper pool next to it and
you've taken it from above andfor some reason I don't know if
it's the wind direction theshallow kids pool, the surface

(02:27:20):
texture, like the ripples, weregoing one way, but then in the
big pool the ripples were goingan opposite.
They were just two contrastingtextures.
It was bizarre.
Maybe I don't know what thewind was doing that day.
So, yeah, that's the theme.
Yeah, sort of You're drawn tothat.

Speaker 3 (02:27:37):
Yeah, just with, but also, yeah, it's also just such
a very.

Speaker 2 (02:27:41):
Even with the skate photography like book.
It's just a very, it's veryhuman.

Speaker 3 (02:27:46):
Yeah, the skateboard, like I didn't mention this, but
like, say, around the time,like I shot the escape, like
back like the great angelsskateboarding, like I wanted to
be a journalist photographer,like that's when I started
working at Fairfax newspapers atthe time and my biggest
influence would have been likemagnum photography.
So you're looking at like those, like you know, like the
photographer Steve McCurry, whotook, like the Afghan eyes

(02:28:07):
things, like those photographerswere a huge influence she's
doing a switch front, so pop,shove it.

Speaker 2 (02:28:14):
Anyway, keep going.

Speaker 3 (02:28:16):
Wouldn't mind laying there.

Speaker 2 (02:28:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going.

Speaker 3 (02:28:22):
But um yeah, so yeah, there's Sorry.
I yeah, it's funny because,like, different, different
influences in photography havealso, like, have driven, like
the way I've approached thesebooks.
The skateboarding book wasphotographed like 25 years ago
Like that one there, aaron, itwas a different approach, look

(02:28:44):
at that Like the textures of thesurfaces.

Speaker 2 (02:28:46):
Yeah, is that a trip?

Speaker 3 (02:28:47):
Yeah, yeah it looks amazing.

Speaker 2 (02:28:48):
What a contrast that's because it's got why.

Speaker 3 (02:28:51):
That would be like Like that's smooth, is it looks?
Amazing, what a contrast,that's because it's got.

Speaker 2 (02:28:55):
Why that would be like Like that's smooth, is it
because it's lower or something?
One's like smooth and the otherone's ruffled, and they're
right next to each other.

Speaker 3 (02:29:05):
I think they're even Pretty nice.
I like that picture.
See those, yeah, the threefigures and the little kid In
the wetsuit Behind.
They're all walking in the same.
They've all got the samefootsteps.
It's like big.
It's like dad, middle man, son.

Speaker 2 (02:29:20):
Yeah, it's a cool pic .
But yeah, it really does seemlike you are interested in
humans and, I guess, documentingthe human experience in some
way.

Speaker 3 (02:29:31):
Yeah, I love the photos Like I was into like
Vietnam War photography likeheavily Like that was so there
was like I love the photos likeI was into like vietnam war
photography like heavily likethat was so there was, like this
photographer called larryburrows and there was two of
them was this guy?
Oh, there was a heap of goodphotographers from that, from
that era, but they really likeand those like, particularly
like those the photographersthat were were, you know,

(02:29:53):
covering like that conflict.
Their whole impetus was tocreate these like these images
that that will end with the war.
You know, I mean like and andthey were looking like, you know
, trying to really um and kindof um.
I just I don't know, I didn'twant to use the cliche but but

(02:30:14):
hot, you know, but highlight thehuman condition, so to speak,
what people are going through.
You can see that in theportrait.
Portraits are wonderful forkind of like showing how someone
feels about things you canusually see in their eyes or
give you a bit of an idea ofthings.
I love portraits.

Speaker 2 (02:30:33):
Yeah, so Jim was telling me about you actually
received a photography award fora sports photo.

Speaker 3 (02:30:42):
Yeah, Is that correct ?
Yeah, I got like two, so onelike, tell us about it.
So the first one, one of themwas like so I won like
Australian Suburban NewspapersAward, like for like a best
editorial photo, so what, thatwas a long time ago.
Like I won that.
That was like 2004 or something.

(02:31:03):
But this is funny.
I'll tell you a funny storyafter this one.
But that one like, basically Iwent down like it was just a
briefing.
Like when you work in anewspaper they give you a little
briefing and it was, um, it wasto do with like the mascot
juniors, like under 10s footballclub have got a new sponsor and
they've, they're all got abrand new jersey.
That was like.
That was like the news briefing.

(02:31:24):
So I go down and meet like thecoach and all the little kids
are down there and all theirlittle soccer gear or whatever,
and like I can see it had beenlike just one of those shit of a
day, like it's been raining,drizzling or whatever, and then
a bit of sun's come out andthere's this big arcing rainbow.
I'm like, okay, well, I can.
I could see that this was onlygoing to last for like 30
seconds or whatever.
So like I just go into likephotographer mode and just yell

(02:31:46):
at them or I would have put onlike a big, like a long focal
length lens, like a telephotolens or whatever.
So I could, you know, go backand kind of like create this,
this picture, like, um, I wantedthe rainbow, just like coming
out of like this huddle of kids,um, with their coach, like
looking like they're having like, uh, you know, like, uh, I

(02:32:10):
don't know a coach, like soccermoment, yeah.
And so I just screamed at themgo down there, get in the huddle
, move over there.
And I probably moved a littlebit myself and lined up the
picture and shot it, and so thatwon the Australian Suburban
Newspaper Awards.
But that was, you know, I onlywon the photo because of the

(02:32:31):
rainbow.
The photo wasn't really thatgreat, I don't think it was
anyway.
But like I'll tell you a funnyone, I was like I'm not really
like a sports photographer, notreally Like I'm more like I am a
sports photographer but I'm notScabonis on a sport.
No, that's.

Speaker 4 (02:32:48):
It's a culture.

Speaker 3 (02:32:50):
Yeah, but like I used to photograph sport quite a bit
when I worked at newspapers Iused to go to NRL games and all
that sort of stuff.
I'd photograph like netball,all sorts of shit.
You know like just photographthings.
But I remember like I went tolike a I won like the Phil
Trezor medal, like Phil TrezorAwards.
This guy, phil Trezor, was likea sports journalist, so I won

(02:33:10):
like Cricket New South Waleslike Best Cricket Photo of the
Year Award journalist.
So I've won like Cricket NewSouth Wales like best cricket
photo of the year award.
Really yeah, and I was workingat like the Bankstown Torch at
the moment.
I probably, I, probably.
I hate cricket as well, so Iwould have only been there for
like two minutes, I would havejust rocked in.
I'm going to shoot this as fastas I can.

(02:33:37):
I haven't seen the photo.
What's going on Describe it?
Yeah, it was one of thosemoments like someone was bowled
out.
It was like a how's that moment?
Oh, okay, and everyone's like,so, like everyone, like, I've
done a tight photo of the wholepitch, like.
Anyway, it turned out to besome like definitive moment in
the game of cricket that decidedon the grand final win or

(02:34:00):
whatever it was.
And you captured it and Icaptured it, but I only wanted
to be there for two minutes,like go home and smoke some
cones or something you know like.
Whatever I had to do, that wasback then.

Speaker 4 (02:34:13):
And you won like a really prestigious award for it.

Speaker 3 (02:34:16):
Yeah, I got 500 bucks as well with it, that's amazing
.
Yeah, it's funny, like it's sortof a yeah, you're not proud of
it, no, because, like, it wasthe week it was like what
happened with that job was likethat I only just got that job,
and it was like around the sametime that we moved up the

(02:34:36):
central coast.
Like that it was just he muchstress and I crashed my car no
way Like, and it didn't have anyinsurance on it, like on
Canterbury Road, so like, and Ijust had to like, couldn't go
back to my like anyway, like, soI moved up Central Coast with
no job.

Speaker 2 (02:34:56):
No, car For a couple of months.

Speaker 3 (02:34:58):
No car, no money.
And then like I ended up likebringing the editor of that
newspaper group up, like I wonthe award and stuff as well,
yeah, in this period of time,and then they sort of got me
back working on the news.
My dad worked in the motorindustry.
We just got some bomb car so Icould drive down to Sydney and

(02:35:19):
go to work.
But then I had another caraccident on the Hawkesbury River
Bridge.
What we had a super storm comethrough about 15 years ago,
while you were driving.
Yeah, and then like Was it thePaschal-Bolka?

Speaker 4 (02:35:34):
storm?

Speaker 3 (02:35:34):
Yeah, the Paschal-, then Was it the Pashawalka storm
.

Speaker 2 (02:35:36):
Yeah, the Pashawalka storm, oh no shit, yeah, yeah,
how's about the Pashawalka I?

Speaker 3 (02:35:39):
was driving, yeah, so what was happening was, like
you know, the Hawkesbury RiverBridge coming from Sydney.

Speaker 2 (02:35:43):
Sorry, that's an old joke between me and a friend.

Speaker 3 (02:35:45):
Sorry, when the conversation ever went dull, I
would say want to hear the story, yeah, so what I was driving
like, so sorry, I'm just drivingmy car like down, like on the
m1, like coming on on approachto the hawksbury river bridge,
like if anyone's you've driventhere you know.
Like it's a steep, like theyhave, like there's there's ramps

(02:36:06):
on the side for trucks tofucking drive up if their brakes
fail things like that yeah, sothat was, and then, as I was, it
was raining.
It was that the Paschal Bolkerwas getting hammered onto
Newcastle.

Speaker 4 (02:36:20):
Beach.
In the rain it was like comingdown in sheets.

Speaker 2 (02:36:22):
I know it was crazy.
How's about the Paschal Bolker?

Speaker 3 (02:36:23):
So as I got closer, like driving, I was in like the
outside lane, like the overtakenlane, the third lane, and as I
got a bit closer it looked likea caravan or something.
And I got a bit closer it wasjust a car, completely sideways
Bullshit In the middle of thefreeway, not in the middle, like

(02:36:45):
blocking, there's two cars thatbasically had like, had an
accident, like they hadn't hiteach other, but one car was
sideways blocking the lane andthe other car was locked up next
to it and it was raining and Icouldn't like I could either
like.
So what I did is I swerved mycar so I wouldn't T-bone the

(02:37:06):
woman because I would havekilled her, and then I ran into
the back of the other carbecause I couldn't have enough
time to look at my rear visionmirrors to change lanes.
I wasn't thinking, man, they'renot causing a fucking bigger
accident, you know?
What I mean.
So yeah and then so I ended uplike crashing into.
I ended up like so long storyshort like my car got written

(02:37:32):
off and then the cops they finedme for like I don't know why,
but I got fined for not drivingas well.

Speaker 2 (02:37:41):
You're saying like the road was blocked, yeah,
there was nothing.

Speaker 3 (02:37:45):
Looking back at it like yeah, but it ended up and
then I just couldn't go back tomy see you later job.
Like I couldn't do it Like Ihad no Well because you had no
transport anymore.
No, transport and justembarrassed as well.
Another car accident, thingslike that.
I was pretty looking I wasn'tlooking like the most reliable
employee at the time.

Speaker 2 (02:38:06):
Oh man, Sorry to hear that.

Speaker 3 (02:38:07):
That was 17 years ago .

Speaker 2 (02:38:09):
You're over it now.
Yep you weren't stoned were you.
Would have been probably.
Say no, Aaron.
Say no, Say no.

Speaker 4 (02:38:21):
Say no, no, he wasn't .

Speaker 3 (02:38:22):
Thanks, jim no it wasn't, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:38:26):
But how's about the Pasha Bolka?

Speaker 3 (02:38:27):
Yeah, it's gnarly, oh man Jim.

Speaker 2 (02:38:35):
Did you ever see the Pasha Bolka when it was up on
the beach?
I've seen photos of it and I'veseen surf photos of it because,
like then people would surf andlike when surf it was actually
the most interesting surfphotography you'd ever been,
because a lot of surfphotographers were getting
photos of surfers with the PashaBolka right there in the
background.

Speaker 3 (02:38:47):
It had a decent break .

Speaker 2 (02:38:48):
The wave was breaking off it because sand started to
form next to it.

Speaker 3 (02:38:51):
Yeah, I saw photos, like awesome photos, of that Did
you get a photo of it, jim?

Speaker 4 (02:38:57):
No, but I mean, I drove past it a bunch of times.

Speaker 2 (02:39:00):
Was everyone in Newcastle talking about the
Pasha Polka?

Speaker 4 (02:39:03):
There was.
Yeah, I mean my mum stillbrings up to this day.
If it starts raining, she'll belike oh, there's got to be
another Pasha Polka.
I went and saw it Like I wentand saw it.

Speaker 3 (02:39:11):
I went up to the beach and checked it out and it
was literally like the nose ofthat ship was on the beach and I
looked at it and thoughtthey're never going to get that
off the beach.

Speaker 2 (02:39:23):
I was just amazed that they did that.

Speaker 3 (02:39:24):
Yeah, how'd they get it off the beach?
They waited for like thecurrents and like a super tide,
and then those tugs are justgnarly.

Speaker 2 (02:39:32):
Are they gnarly?

Speaker 3 (02:39:33):
Yeah, they've got heaps of horsepower.
Oh shit yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:39:37):
Yeah, ah, a Pasha, bull car, but yeah, incredible
they did that, hey, and we sitin real life, yeah.
Those things are massive dude.

Speaker 3 (02:39:46):
They're massive.

Speaker 2 (02:39:49):
It's a bolt carrier.

Speaker 3 (02:39:50):
I still see them when they come in the harbour Like I
still go oh, wow, man, look atthat.
Yeah, it's still real scenicLike a little kid, yeah, like
they're big.

Speaker 2 (02:39:57):
Yeah, how long have you lived in Newcastle?
For now?
A year and a half.
Oh, you're only new.
Yeah, I'm a stranger in astrange land full of strange
people.

Speaker 3 (02:40:04):
Yeah, yeah, because I've got like, because you know,
like me, like on Central Coast,I'll never be local.
No same, I'll never be like.

Speaker 2 (02:40:15):
I get it, I get it, I've been 17 years and I still
tell people that 17 years there.

Speaker 4 (02:40:19):
Yeah, do you still say you're from Castle Hill if
someone asks where you're from?

Speaker 3 (02:40:22):
Yeah, I do yeah because I'm like I do.
No, I'll tell people I live inCentral Coast.
I wouldn't say yeah shit.

Speaker 2 (02:40:31):
man.
I can tell people I'm fromSydney, do you mind if I ask
like living with your parents?
Yeah, I like it.

Speaker 3 (02:40:37):
Yeah, you're cool with it, my parents are getting
older, Like my mum's 81, mydad's 80.
No.
I'm not a carer Like I have,like you know, I've got a job
and things like that and theycan care for themselves, but
like I do do a shitload ofthings around the house that
they wouldn't be able to dootherwise, the house that they
wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
Okay, you know, like it's sortof it's.

(02:40:58):
Um, yeah, I don't really.
You know, like it's.
It's the point where it's otherpeople will have to do it
themselves as well, like it'sjust, and I'm glad that, like my
parents, like I, because I work, I have it I have it like a I
haven't.
Like I work in market researchand like I just got a regular
shit job.
Like I go work and interviewpeople but I go in the nursing
research and like I've just gota regular shit job.
Like I go and work andinterview people but I go in the
nursing homes and things likethat, like and I sort of.

(02:41:19):
So I just think like yeah, yourfamily's important.
Yeah.
Kind of like I think, like by mebeing around my parents, like
as much of a challenge as I amto them, like it's probably good
for them.

Speaker 2 (02:41:34):
But also like our culture of putting elderly
people into nursing homes.

Speaker 3 (02:41:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:41:39):
You know a lot of cultures.
Don't do that.
You know the parents live withthe family.
You know and the grandchildrenand they're all in one compound.
Yeah, but we're in a societywhere we have to work long hours
to keep up with financialresponsibilities and then that
means we can't look after ourfamily, including our children,

(02:42:00):
because then we put our childreninto daycares, we put our
elderly people into nursinghomes, you know, so we can keep
up with the finance that we haveto pay off.
It's pretty strange, when youthink about it, that we're
paying other people to lookafter the most important people
in our life.

Speaker 3 (02:42:17):
Yeah, you're spot on, like you're seeing it.
Just an observation From bothends, yeah, from child care
through to age care.

Speaker 2 (02:42:25):
But I personally really struggle with it as a
teacher because I'm like I'mwith other people's kids more
than my own.
Yeah, it just seems weird, likewhy can't I just be teaching my
kids, you know?

Speaker 3 (02:42:37):
Yeah, we sort of like we sort of live in a funny like
maybe.
I mean like there's somethinglike when you live with your
parents, like, and you're older,like you don't have, like like
I've got to be mindful of things.
Like my parents, it's theirhouse, things like that, like I
don't think they mind me beingaround or anything like that.
I think they do appreciate it,but you know, I don't have the

(02:43:02):
independence that I would likeand the privacy that I would
like with some things.
There's that trade-off to itwhich maybe some other people
just aren't willing to kind oflike to do that trade-off.
But there's going to be like apoint where I don't know I think
that we will be living inlarger families like down the
track, like it's not justbecause of our housing

(02:43:23):
affordability.
We've just got to look aftereach other.

Speaker 4 (02:43:25):
I agree 100% yeah, Completely Speaking of families,
you mentioned earlier that youdo.
You have an older brother aswell.

Speaker 3 (02:43:31):
Yeah, yeah, I do.

Speaker 4 (02:43:33):
Does he live locally as well?

Speaker 3 (02:43:34):
He's in Borkham Hills .
Oh right, so he's still in theold hood.

Speaker 4 (02:43:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:43:41):
And you guys keep in touch.
Yeah, I saw him like on theweekend, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, he's not, he neverskated enough.
Did he get the okay from Glennand Hank?
To be called a Borko or mybrother.
Yeah, that's a good.
Well, the only thing is, yeah,I think the funny thing is like,
if you know Glenn and Hank,like they'll be respectful to my

(02:44:04):
brother, hey.
Of course they will.
I'm joking, but so I don't knowif they'll call him Borko, but
he's yeah, he's part of.
He's sort of, yeah, he's Borko,he, yeah, he's part of.
He's sort of, yeah, he's Borko,he's Borko, yeah, okay, yeah,
in a weird way, but like yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44:19):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (02:44:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44:20):
Like starting a family, ever something you
wanted or not really.

Speaker 3 (02:44:25):
That's another like was Is it too personal to ask
that?
No, not at all.
Like it's sort of like lookingat it and thinking the prospects
are starting a family now.
Like I'm going to be likeshopping for something
secondhand.
Come on, you know, like it'strue.

Speaker 4 (02:44:45):
How old are you?
If you don't mind me asking,I'm 50.

Speaker 2 (02:44:48):
Right you don't look 50 at all, dude yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:44:54):
And yeah, so short and.

Speaker 2 (02:45:00):
So you're not interested in secondhand goods?

Speaker 3 (02:45:03):
No, I am, but like it's not, like you don't sort of
like you can't think, okay,like I just want something brand
new.
I don't want something that'sbeen married before or already
had kids.
Come on, I've got to like toput it into perspective and look
at my age and the reality ofthe situation.
If I am going to have a family,I'd say I'd be one of those.
I'll be down for it if I loveher.

Speaker 2 (02:45:28):
It's not something you're chasing, necessarily.
Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 3 (02:45:31):
No, I'm not chasing it.
Not chasing it, fair enough.
I was sort of like I guess it'ssort of you've always liked the
prospect of like you don't wantto be alone.
Like I mean well, I don't mind,I've been alone for so long, I
don't mind it actually like inthe sense of partnering up with

(02:45:54):
someone, Like I don't have toreally worry about that, I quite
like just being by myself.
It doesn't bother me.
Some people can't hack that,you know what I mean that's true
.
I mean like say, for example,like I started seeing someone
recently and I quite enjoyedlike being involved in the
relationship.
So, yeah, just see what happens, seen someone recently and I
quite enjoyed like beinginvolved in the relationship,

(02:46:15):
like, um, so yeah, to just seewhat happens, like, and then you
embrace it if it's something tonice man yeah it's a really
honest way of saying it.

Speaker 4 (02:46:24):
You know, see what happens and then embrace it.
If it so, a lot of people aresearching for things that maybe
are idealized and don'tnecessarily even exist well, I
reckon I did that a little bit,but the way you just said it
just then was so lovely.
You know, just like see whathappens and then embrace it if
it does.

Speaker 3 (02:46:39):
That's a really lovely way to look at it, yeah
so I'm slowly learning a fewthings as I become a little bit
wiser with maturity.
But you do have to try thingsas well.

Speaker 4 (02:46:49):
Of course, put yourself out there.

Speaker 3 (02:46:50):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly.
So there was something else Iwas going to say.
Oh yeah, so we're talking.
So it was about prospect ofhaving family.
Was there another question?

Speaker 2 (02:47:03):
for that.
Starting a family, lookingafter elderly?
Yeah, can't answer Parents,family.
Your brother, your brotherBorko, yeah no.

Speaker 3 (02:47:14):
I think I had to.
I might have said what I wasplanning to say.

Speaker 2 (02:47:18):
Yeah, I guess it's an interesting, I guess conundrum
oh yeah, I don't know what tosay.

Speaker 3 (02:47:28):
So what it is is like I didn't realize, like so I
spent when I was looking at lifethis is I've been reflecting
and thinking about things alittle bit lately is that I kind
of some people I'm noticingthis with my job, like because I

(02:47:49):
work in market research and Iinterviewed people like for the
housing and income and labourtype projects.
Anyway, get to the point.
I meet different people and Italk to them and I can see that
they set goals in life.
I can sort of tell that theirgoal was to kind of find some

(02:48:10):
security and they might havethat yearning to have children
and have a family of their ownand things like that.
So achieve those goals and thenwork towards you know, other
personal goals, which is maybelike personal interests, things

(02:48:31):
like that.
Like I didn't, like my brainjust didn't go that way, like I
just looked at photography andprojects and just went that way.
I didn't, and I sort of lookedback and I don't know if that
was the, because you know, likeI might be, you sometimes need a

(02:48:53):
little bit behind you, likewhether it's like collateral or
emotional support, and sometimesthat helps to have that behind
you as well, before you embarkon um setting out to achieve
your goals.
So there's no right, or like Iwent.
So, yeah, I sort of think, likeI just was.
So you know, like just wantingto be a photographer, like

(02:49:16):
wanting to pursue my dreams,trying to survive all these
sorts of things and just neverhad a family.
Yeah, fair enough.
Never, I was just yeah, it justseemed like it was.

Speaker 2 (02:49:26):
It wasn't on your priorities.
It didn't feel like followingthe traditional it wasn't like a
priority.

Speaker 3 (02:49:31):
It just seemed like it was just too hard to try and
accomplish the other things, letalone trying to find someone.
Trying to hold my own sanity,you know, I just I don't know.
There's lots of things youdon't need that.

Speaker 2 (02:49:44):
And you said that.
You actually said that too.
You said you know, like you'reokay with being alone, you know,
and like there's a lot ofpeople who really aren't.

Speaker 4 (02:50:03):
Yeah, I don't know.
And if you're, if you're coolwith that, like that's a full,
that's a strength in my opinion.
The other thing is you, youcreated this body of work during
that time.
That will kind of like we'retalking about before it inspires
other people, but it'll alsolive on after you, I hope so
like after you're gone and like,know, I know that's a long way
off.
I'm not being morbid, I don'tmean it like that.
It's not that far off though,really, because it's funny when
you hit 50, like, you sort ofstart looking at You're very

(02:50:23):
healthy, you do I know what Iwas trying to say is this body
of work, though that was likequite influential and quite
influential like in like acertain subculture, um, and part
of like kind of like a verycertain niche australian
identity.
It's a really strong body ofwork and like that body of work
will live on and kind of likeit's like something that you've

(02:50:47):
left, um, you've left for theworld and it's kind of like
creating.
That is in some ways like thesame, as like that's creating
your lineage, or like the sameway as other people might have
kids and you know what I meanlike you have that other thing
there as well.
It's not like the world passedyou by or anything like that.
You created this amazing bodyof work that, like you know, the

(02:51:07):
majority of people couldn'teven imagine.

Speaker 3 (02:51:10):
Really, I really appreciate that Legacy man.
Yeah, I always wanted yeah,it's funny because I sort of
like I can feel that Sorry, dude.
No, it's okay, it's, yeah, I'mhoping, like, I'm hoping, like
in like.
I'm just wondering if that'ssomething that's changed, like
in like, because, like Icertainly have, like my

(02:51:33):
photographers, like there's thisguy called Eugene Smith.
Like he was just brilliant, Ijust loved the guy's photography
.
He died like in 1974 orsomething and he certainly, like
he, like I'm just one of likemillions of photographers that
adore, like have been impactedby his photography and just

(02:51:59):
think, you know, like that'sjust brilliant and you know,
like I love, like what he wastrying to convey in his images,
whether it was a social issue orwhether it was, you know, just
the portrait.
And I'm just wondering, likeyou know, like sort of, if
there's going to be likeinfluential photographers like

(02:52:20):
in the future, like there hasbeen in the past.
You know, with the way thingsare changing, that was one of my
starting questions.

Speaker 2 (02:52:27):
I think too, like you know, in this digital age and
I've asked other photographersthis in the past you know like
has digital photography devaluedthe craft and the art?
And I guess, after listening toyou speak about this and other
people, I actually don't thinkit has.
Yeah, I think the process isstill a craft and it's a dark

(02:52:52):
art that can never be perfectedand all that I don't like that
dark art that can never beperfected and all that.

Speaker 3 (02:52:56):
I love that dark art that can never be perfected.

Speaker 4 (02:52:57):
I kind of look at it like when the camera was
actually invented.
When people first startedtaking photographs especially
like with the proliferation ofthe camera people still painted.
Originally, people werepainting to capture an image I
love, like the first, you knowwhat I mean, and it's not like
when the camera came out, peoplewere like oh, why the fuck?

Speaker 1 (02:53:16):
are you painting?
Still, it's antiquated.
Then you've got photos.
Now you don't need to do thatanymore.
Take a photo of that person,yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:53:21):
I think it's the same thing with digital and film
photography it's just anothermedium, it's a different medium,
it's a different art form.

Speaker 3 (02:53:30):
It's like first came out, like the first like
portrait, like it was portraitsand landscapes, like you know,
like were the main things thatthey were like shooting.
They actually like used to uselike soft lenses and things like

(02:53:50):
that to try and make the earlyportraits look like paintings.

Speaker 1 (02:53:52):
That's right to mimic , oh really.
Yeah yeah, yeah, they did, andthen it was like it was Edward.

Speaker 3 (02:53:57):
Weston and Ansel Adams came along in like the 20s
and 30s and they were like hangon, this is shit.
The whole idea is to make aphoto look as sharp, as you know
what.
I was talking about before,with like the rendition of like
tonal values in an image likethat's what they were all on
about.

Speaker 2 (02:54:16):
There, you go.

Speaker 3 (02:54:18):
But yeah, the paradigm shifted, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (02:54:21):
Yeah, and then there's painters who try to be
as realistic, so it looks like aphoto.
Like FA actually put out aDylan Reader board.
Have you seen that?
No, and it's a picture of DylanReader as a kid.

Speaker 3 (02:54:37):
And you think it's a because you know how they did a
series of just like portraitphotos of the pro models.
You know I know nothing, butthen for.

Speaker 2 (02:54:42):
Dylan Reader.
It was a portrait of him as akid, but it was painted, but so
painted so amazingly it lookedlike a photo.
But you look up close andyou're like, oh my God, that's a
painting.
Yeah you see that.
So maybe the mediums arecomplementing each other and
maybe, like you, look at somedigital work and it will give
you inspiration for things youcould do, you know, in the

(02:55:04):
manual process.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:55:06):
But yeah, sort of come back to like that whole
like notion of leaving a legacy,like yeah, that's also like
yeah, who I mean?
Who doesn't want to influencepeople and sort of have a
positive impact on, like, thedirection and people can sort of
like look at that and go likewow, that's fantastic and then

(02:55:27):
take it in their own direction.

Speaker 2 (02:55:28):
yeah, Well, artists and creatives and photographers
are leaving more legacy items inthis life than anyone else.
You know, and I ask guests thata lot like what do you want
your legacy to be?
You know, but I think you'vealready answered it and Jim sort
of just asked you and you knowyour image is going to be looked
at for who knows how long.

(02:55:49):
You know Already even in thislife, like looking at photos you
took.
You know, 30 years ago, it'sinsane longer.

Speaker 4 (02:55:58):
Yeah, if you go into the State Library or the
National Library of Australia,they hold Australian
skateboarding.
Do they?
Yeah, and you can go and youknow you can go and have a look
Right now in the NationalLibrary of Australia.
You can search Australianskateboarding in their
catalogues yeah.
You know how many covers.

Speaker 2 (02:56:15):
It's funny there's like Will digital assets last
that long?
That's my question.

Speaker 4 (02:56:19):
Well, that's why people Will digital assets last
that long?

Speaker 2 (02:56:22):
What if the internet just dies tomorrow?

Speaker 4 (02:56:23):
Well, that's why it's important to preserve it in
both mediums, physical anddigital.

Speaker 3 (02:56:27):
Yeah, I like what like this is You've heard like
you guys I don't know if youguys like know about these you
got like because when I wasworking in newspapers like they
just sort of like threw away alltheir negs and stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:56:43):
Threw away.
What sorry.

Speaker 3 (02:56:44):
Their negs Did they?
Yeah, like decades worth justwent straight into storage, yeah
.
So there's like I just hatethis like shatter the like,
break the.
What's the shatter?
The optimism, the illusion.
The illusion that people aregoing to be retaining this.
Yeah, yeah.
Then some knucklehead comesalong and goes oh, we don't need

(02:57:05):
that anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:57:06):
We've got no space for that.

Speaker 3 (02:57:08):
Yeah, exactly that's what comes down to it.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 4 (02:57:12):
They do have the microfilms of the whole papers,
though, so they might not havethe negatives from the original
photos that went in the paper,but they have the microfilm and
the microfiche of the papersthemselves, which are obviously
not as good quality as the photo, but you can see where the
photo ended up.

Speaker 2 (02:57:28):
Oh, there you go.

Speaker 3 (02:57:30):
Yeah, that's important there you go, I think
the preservation of our historyis so important, especially,
yeah, that's important.
I think the preservation of ourhistory is so important,
especially like news media andthings like that, and sort of
archiving this material isfundamental to sort of like,
yeah, understanding who we areand our history down the track.
But yeah, I'm certainly one forthat Cool man.

(02:57:52):
Whether other people are goingto be doing.
That's another thing.
Yeah, We'll see.
We'll see.
Yeah, We'll see.
We'll be advocates forlibraries and archiving things.

Speaker 4 (02:58:05):
Can you preach into a converted ear?

Speaker 3 (02:58:07):
Yeah, oh yeah, I know that.

Speaker 2 (02:58:08):
But I wonder if it's like, as we get older, like is
it an old person thing?
I mean, my grandmother used toreally like have a lot of photos
around the house, you know,because I think she realized the
importance of these memoriesand, you know, archiving,
whereas as kids I didn't give ashit, you know.
But as I get older I'm like, ohman, I wish I documented more,

(02:58:29):
I wish I archived, yeah, yeah,it's funny.
Like I don't really like, maybeit's an age thing.

Speaker 3 (02:58:36):
Yeah, it's sort of interesting as well, like
because I don't like this andlike like I don't take photos,
or like my friends and my familyand stuff like that at all.
I don't have okay too boringfor you.
I don't know like just don'tyou know, and that's what most
people would photograph, likethings that are in there, like

(02:58:56):
immediately familiar to them.
If I was testing somethinggoing, mum, I'll take a photo
Seriously, though, like even myphone and stuff.
I don't do that too much.

Speaker 2 (02:59:09):
Yeah, what do you think of iPhone photography?

Speaker 3 (02:59:15):
Yeah, like it was sort of like the new ad.
Hey, like I saw this just theother night, they've actually
got buttons on the side of thephone, so they're trying, like
in the commercial they wereusing it like a camera.
Like I think the phone waspressed up, they weren't holding
it like that, they were holdingit pretty close and there were
buttons, like you know what Imean, like a shutter button as

(02:59:38):
opposed to touching the screen.

Speaker 2 (02:59:40):
You can do that with the volume.

Speaker 3 (02:59:42):
You can, yeah, but anyway, poking your fingers at
screens to take photos and stuff, I reckon nah, I'm not too big
on that.

Speaker 2 (02:59:50):
You need a click.

Speaker 3 (02:59:51):
Yeah, I don't know yeah.
And then, like the thing thatget me started with iPhones, oh
well, damn, okay.
Like manipulating photos, like,okay, light hits a sensor and
light can't really bemanipulated too much, you know
what I mean.
Like, but just to blatantlylike mix it up in

(03:00:14):
post-production, like mergingseveral photos into one so
everyone's eyes are open in thephotos and man Do, people do
that.

Speaker 2 (03:00:22):
Yep, yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:00:25):
So they've got all this AI technology that's built
into, like the camera phone.
The camera phones are the worstfor that sort of thing, for
what I could gather.

Speaker 2 (03:00:33):
In terms of like fixing photos.

Speaker 3 (03:00:35):
Fixing photos, making skies look bluer than what they
are, making colors look morevivid.
I don't know.
I'm starting to questionwhether I'm seeing the world
correctly, or is it thesaturation of the software?

Speaker 2 (03:00:46):
It's just standard now to put filter.
It's standard to filter things.
Everyone almost expects it.

Speaker 3 (03:00:52):
Yeah, whereas, like I don't know, they've got like
you can basically like there'ssoftware now so you can shoot an
out of focus.
I haven't used it, I've justseen like you can shoot
something out of focus and it'llfocus it.
Yeah, like, and I will.
They'll have like the modelinglike, because it'd just be
modeling like the way, likethey'd just have the

(03:01:13):
sophisticated like computeringthat's happening, boom, boom,
boom and it'll model everythinglike shadows, everything.
That's just going to be aroundthe corner.

Speaker 2 (03:01:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:01:26):
But what I'm getting at is, yeah, the whole thing of
like that's the authenticity ofan image, is like that's sacred
it is.
You don't mess around with that.

Speaker 2 (03:01:37):
I think you can tell.
Oh yeah, Whether your eye istrained or not, it's like you
know that's what's authentic.
It's like it's innate.

Speaker 3 (03:01:47):
Yeah, you reckon it's innate in us.
You can sort of set off analarm bell that something just
doesn't.

Speaker 2 (03:01:52):
Something about it.
You know that's been taken.

Speaker 3 (03:01:55):
I think there's some photos like in history Lee
Harvey Oswald with a shotgun.
They reckon that the shadowunder his doesn't fit.
There was a photo like ofJoseph Stalin with Lenin, and
they took Trotsky out of theimage.
Fundamentally, that's changinghistory by doing things like

(03:02:18):
that.
I do worry about the futurewith, uh, especially with like,
um, yeah, artificial 100%.
Worry about the future, I worryabout the present photography
and then I guess it's likephotographers, philosophy as
well, like, like my integrity isgoing to be different to some.
I've worked with photographersthat don't have any integrity in

(03:02:38):
.
You know what they're doing andwill you know change eyes or
something you know like get youknow, it's not hard to do.
They'll have like their bangerphotos, the one with the eyes
closed, so I'll clone the eyesoff another photo.
Shit man, you can't do that.
It's the eyes, for fuck's sake.

Speaker 2 (03:02:59):
It's all Franken-photo.

Speaker 3 (03:03:00):
I don't know, but what I'm getting at is you sort
of follow that there is likethere's lines that, yeah, I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (03:03:09):
It starts to defeat the purpose pretty quickly.
Yeah, the purpose of taking thephoto in the first place.

Speaker 3 (03:03:15):
So yeah, the phones.
I'm not big on phones at all.

Speaker 4 (03:03:18):
Sorry.

Speaker 3 (03:03:19):
Oh, no, no, I don't use my phone, but they'll just
have more AI technology.
And then you like the ones, theforthcoming phones that we
haven't seen yet.

Speaker 2 (03:03:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:03:29):
And then just the inherent danger of the people
operating those phones and thenhow the images get used.

Speaker 2 (03:03:36):
I feel bad.

Speaker 3 (03:03:37):
I've gone pretty far with that, but it is like it is.

Speaker 2 (03:03:41):
I mean I use it.

Speaker 3 (03:03:42):
I've just sort of been watching it for years now.

Speaker 2 (03:03:44):
As a one-man show in production.

Speaker 4 (03:03:48):
Yeah, but you're using it as a multifaceted tool.
You're not using it as yourprimary art form.
You're not trying to replacewhat Aaron's doing with your
phone You're using your phone asa tool, which is what it's
supposed to be, even better.

Speaker 3 (03:04:04):
I love this.
I love this when someone showsme a picture on their phone and
then I shoot a four by five filmlike the negative is bigger
than their phone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And someone's telling me howgreat their phone photo is.
When I use large fallbackcameras, I just go mad.

(03:04:26):
It boggles me, that's hilarioustoo.
But they're pretty good andthey're going to put all
photographers out of work andthey're going to put all
photographers Out of work and Ijust Get back on man, that's
hilarious.

Speaker 4 (03:04:43):
Look, the video camera didn't put photographers
out of work.
The camera didn't put paintersout of work.
You know Paint didn't putcharcoal out of work.
You know all these things havebeen Happening and you know, as
all these things have beenhappening, and you know, as long
as we stay, as long as all ofus stay true to our art forms,
and you know, yeah, you thinkeverything's going to be okay.
Well, I'm not necessarilysaying that, I'm just saying

(03:05:05):
that I don't think that.

Speaker 3 (03:05:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (03:05:09):
I don't think you can ever replace.
I'm not saying people wouldn'ttry to, because I know they
already are trying to, but Idon't think anybody can ever
replace what Aaron does.

Speaker 2 (03:05:20):
Okay, good, let's hope so.
I think that's almost where toend.

Speaker 3 (03:05:24):
Yeah, I'm pretty how are you feeling?
I've run out of words really.
Yeah, well, yeah, How's aboutthat?

Speaker 2 (03:05:32):
pressure balker, you hear about that.
You could see it from here.
Yeah, almost almost.
Pasha Bolka, you've got a goodview of the harbour.
Well, you know it's our roleanyway.
Alright, thanks, aaron, thanks.

Speaker 3 (03:05:47):
Jim, thanks Shannon, thanks Jim.

Speaker 2 (03:05:49):
Aaron Brown, everybody yes for a couple of
times.

Speaker 3 (03:05:58):
Brown everybody.
Yes, yes, that's for a coupleof times.

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#241 - Aaron Brown: The Timeless Medium of Film Photography.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#241 - Aaron Brown: The Timeless Medium of Film Photography.