A Biblical Response to the Murder of Charlie Kirk

In the days since Charlie Kirk’s assassination, reactions have poured in — from outrage to apathy, from political point-scoring to despair. But as followers of Jesus, we’re called to something different. In this episode, host Jon Delger, the Multiplication Pastor, Ryan Kimmel, the Lead Pastor, and Logan Bailey, the Family Pastor at Peace Church, talk honestly about how Christians should respond in moments like this. We’ll push back on the voices that fuel division and instead turn to Scripture to anchor our response in truth, love, and hope. Our desire is not to add to the noise, but to lift high the gospel of Christ — the only hope strong enough for a grieving and divided world.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Well, hey, welcome to this
special episode of That's a GoodQuestion.

(00:29):
We're going to take a break fromour series that we've been in
talking about secret sins to address some stuff going on in
the world around us. So my name is John.
I could serve as the host of theshow week in and week out.
I'm here with two pastors from Peace Church, Pastor Ryan, our
lead pastor, and Pastor Logan, our family pastor.
Welcome, guys. Hey, hey.
And it's been a hard week. The last week we addressed it on

(00:50):
Sunday in a sermon at Peace Church.
And now we're going to talk about some more, answer people's
questions about it. For those who don't know, last
week, Charlie Kirk was assassinated as he sat on a
stool behind a table talking to college students about his faith
and about policies, about current issues in our nation.
He lost his life. And that also comes in the midst

(01:13):
of a lot of other tragedies happening recently.
The same day, a school shooting,just previously to that, a woman
stabbed on a train, number of other things even before that.
I've got a list here in front ofme that I'd be happy to share,
but we want to just talk throughthat here.
So we're going to kind of talk about that issue and then we're
going to kind of process some ofthe questions people are asking

(01:36):
about this and how do we think about this as Christians?
How do we think about this in light of the Bible?
And then talk a little bit abouthow do we respond as Christians?
What does this mean for our daily lives?
All right, so let's get into it.So to paint the picture again, I
want to just name because, you know, Charlie's assassination is
so it sits so heavy on us, and we're going to talk about that.

(01:56):
But I do also want to name just some of the other events that
are also surrounding this, because that's not the only
true. There's so many tragedies that
have happened even just in this calendar year.
Yeah, I've got a few just in front of me.
I want to name on the same day, like I said, a high school in
Colorado. There's a school shooting just a
couple weeks before that. Annunciation Catholic school in
Minnesota. 2 little kids were killed, 17 were injured.

(02:17):
Another shooting on a train. A 23 year old Irina Zurutska was
stabbed and died. A Ukrainian refugee just back in
June, a state representative in Minnesota, Melissa Hortman, and
her husband were killed, and also a state senator and his
wife were shot, but they survived.
According to the Internet, about57 school shootings have

(02:37):
happened already in this calendar year, with 47 people
dying as a result of them. And then something else we've
talked about before is even justthe number of Christians who
have died for their faith already in this country.
You're in different parts of theworld as martyrs.
So we've got lots of tragedy happening in the world around
us. And then, you know, Charlie
being assassinated hit us all sohard.

(02:59):
So let's just start there. Why is it that this is such a a
heavy moment, such a heavy hit? Yeah, I got that question a
number of times, especially likein in contrast to the the
terrible school shootings that have happened.
Yeah, I think a lot of times people forget how closely we can
feel connected to people and personalities that we see

(03:19):
online. I mean, Charlie Kirk was an
incredibly massive social media presence, not just a movement
like in Republican and conservative circles.
He was just, he was all over theInternet all the time.
And I didn't, I didn't follow him super closely.
I don't think I was primarily his target.
I think he was speaking to like the next and up and coming
generations. But he was such a presence and

(03:40):
he had such a, such a devoted following from people.
They, they had a connection to him.
And I think as pastors with a, with a larger and growing
church, we feel that. And to an extent, we, I'm
definitely, we're definitely connected with our congregation.
But for some people, they're going to feel probably a little
bit more connected to us than than personally we, we'll feel
with them. People are feeling the weight of

(04:02):
Charlie Kirk's assassination in,in unique ways because of how
connected they felt to him. I got, I'll be honest with you
guys, like the after Charlie Kirk was killed on a Wednesday,
by the end of the day Thursday, I had AI had a number of people
reach out to me, text me, who don't normally do that.
And in, in the manosphere, we would say that they're, they

(04:25):
were reaching out. They're reaching out to me
because they were feeling like this, this hole, they're feeling
like this lost and they didn't know how to process it.
And that's what really hit me about we should probably shift
gears for Sunday. I mean, wholesale, not just say
a prayer, which many, many churches did.
And I, I believe the Kirk familyis thankful for that.
But I feel like we needed to shift gears because there was,

(04:47):
there was a connection there. And that's, that's, that's what
I'd say why it hits differently is because because we can feel
so connected to people with sucha strong online presence who
speak our language or, or maybe saying things that we, that we
feel like we need to hear or, orare helping us grow and helping
us think through. Things or they're speaking for
us. There's that it's a it's AII was
at the doctor's office the day after we had found out and I I

(05:11):
had mentioned one of the reasonsI'm here is because Charlie had
two kids and I have two kids. And so I had a pain in my chest.
I want to make sure it wasn't any heart issue and it wasn't.
And before the doctor left the office, he looked at me and he
said same man. So it's almost like it was
personal. And that's we ask we're asking

(05:31):
the question why, why is this sopersonal for so many?
And I actually have been asking myself that question.
I have like 5 different answers for why it seems so personal and
it's to such a degree that not only did a lot of churches talk
about it and shift gears, which I think was really wise, but I
think people have lost some respect for their churches if
they didn't. Oh, I've seen videos of people

(05:53):
walking out of their church because it wasn't mentioned.
Yeah. So this it's, it's a heavyweight
on so many people in a very personal way, even on myself,
and I'm trying to process why. Yeah, actually, I feel like
quick pause, we should talk about just that.
So people, people, I've even seepeople posting online, several
people that are saying if your church didn't talk about Charlie

(06:16):
Kirk on Sunday, then you need tofind a new church.
Wow, that seems a little intense.
What do you guys think about that?
I'd say not without a conversation with the
leadership. Just don't just don't ghost them
or just don't walk out the back door.
Like if you feel that strongly about it and you and that's your
church family, that's your church home, then you got to
reach out to your pastor elder. And I would be happy to

(06:36):
encourage way more grace on that.
But even I saw a video of a guy walking out clearly before
church ended. He was alone.
Was it the one where you could hear the pastor still preaching
in the background? I didn't hear that on the one I
watched, but that's the sense oflike I to our students last
night, I was, I was speaking about identity and all these
things and I brought it up as anI brought it up towards the end
of my met. So I, I was just thinking, oh

(06:57):
man, what if he was actually, what if that pastor was going to
mention it or I know a church that they didn't mention the
sermon, but they were going to mention it at the prayer time
that they had scheduled after, or at least they were thinking
of doing that. And so it's like we've got very
practically just have more gracethan yeah to think through.
Like that's a that's a whole, that's a whole conversation.
I mean, obviously for all of us,we would say the most if if
Christ is preached, if Christ isnot preached at your church,

(07:20):
that's when you need to find thechurch.
If the Bible's not preached at your church, that's when you
find another church. Obviously this is something,
yeah. I mean, we obviously talked
about it. You talked about it in the
sermon. I mean, so it's really
important. Like we should talk about it,
but. At the very least, I'd say yes,
it's OK to have a question whichyou then should take to the
pastor of the question of oh man, does my pastor have a good

(07:43):
pulse on what his flock is goingthrough.
Because it does seem like this has been a heavy blanket on so
many. And it's almost like a shared
like for, for me to, for my, forthe, the doctor to be, yeah,
look at me and pause and go sameman.
It's almost like it's personal. That that was like, it, it, it,

(08:04):
it, it has been personal. Why does it feel personal?
And like, I think we're all feeling that a little.
Bit well, I was going to say that it's not just not just the
the idea of why didn't your church speak on this?
Because people feel so feel personal, feel this personal
gloss or connection, but also there's a little bit of I take
the other side of this there. There was a national moment
happening where the entire nation, a global moment, a

(08:26):
global moment that was happening.
And for the church not to at least speak into it.
No, I mean, no matter where you're at on the political
spectrum, not to at least acknowledge there's a national
moment happening right now. And we're going to pray for the
heart of our nation as so many people respond, you know, I
mean, like, just, it just seems like a miss to be like, are you
even aware of aware of what's going on in the world?
And 100% Pastor John, like you leave a church when Christ is

(08:49):
not preached. But if they don't mention the
passing of Charlie Couric. And again, I, I think it was a
miss not to speak into it. Don't just walk out the back
door. At least have the conversation
with your elders and, and your pastors, because I'm willing to
bet for the most part, a conversation was had and a
decision was made not to. And that's it.
Just there's that moment of like, the church just needs to

(09:11):
start being aware to what what'shappening.
And again, like, I don't want tobelabor this point, but I've
said this to many people and a lot of people who came to peace
for the first time on Sunday. I often say, like, I don't, I'm
not a headline chaser. Like, I don't preach the
newspaper. I don't preach what's going on
all the time. But every now and again, when
there is something happening on such a national and global scale

(09:33):
for the church not to weigh in. Yeah.
It's like, are you are you even awake?
Yeah. So, yeah, for me, I think we
talked about this, that, you know, why it hit so heavy.
And so home was just like, it sort of felt like that could
have been me. It sort of felt like this is
just that. He's 31 years old.
He's a young man with a young family.

(09:55):
And he's speaking about his faith, Yes.
He's also speaking about policy issues and things like that.
But he's just, he was, you know,he wasn't even behind a podium,
I think was part of it. He's he's sitting on a stool
behind a table, and it was students gathered around asking
questions, and he's answering them.
He. Asked a question, put the mic
down so he could hear the answerand like fully.

(10:16):
And then that's when he was shot.
His, his last statement was a question, which is a powerful
thing when you think about it. He was seeking clarification so
that he could answer properly. And so he's seeking
clarification by answering a question, by asking a question.
And that's when he was shot and killed.
And it's, it's haunting. Yeah.
And then, of course, the, you know, the level at which we saw
it, you know, and with modern technology.

(10:37):
Me and you, Pastor John, we're in my office when we got Word
and right, of course we look it up and we're seeing the
unfiltered live streams that are.
Happening even if you didn't want to, you soon as you open
the Internet. Yeah, most people saw it.
I think we can and we can keep bringing up why was this so
personal for so many. But I, I do think just seeing
those videos, like you can see videos of from the distance,

(11:01):
there's shots, the wide shot of the entire space.
The moment you hear the bullet crushed, everyone starts
screaming and running. And that that is like a, a
zoomed in kind of example of theglobal moment of there's so many
different responses that happened in that everyone
obviously immediately reacts to what someone died.

(11:23):
And then they go like, what was the emotions right after?
There's accounts of some people laughing in that moment as they
run. It's ridiculous.
And so then what? What we're all experiencing
right now is seeing posts onlineof like, wait, that's your
response to this? Not only did a man just get
shot, but you don't know if bullets are still flying in the
air. Yeah, so there's laughing,

(11:43):
there's, there's, there's this global moment of not just what
happened, but responding to how other people are responding to
what happened. Yeah, that I think is way.
I was talking to, I have a buddywho's a pastor in London and I
was talking to him this morning about it and he was like, yeah,
my 1313 and 15 year old sons were like, it's all the kids

(12:04):
were talking about at school in London.
Wow, it's just all over. And you can see video clips of,
like, the full gambit of responses even among high
schoolers. I'm getting the full campaign.
Response that's kind of one of the points of you mentioned
you're not, you weren't Charlie's audience like you

(12:24):
weren't because he was targetingcollege and he was talking with
college and high school kids. And I, I said to our students
last night, the reason that I really want you guys to be
mindful of what is sticking to you in this moment, not too
scary, but to embolden you is because high school and college,
you're learning. But it's literally where people

(12:46):
either lose their faith or it's where revivals start.
It is where revivals start. And so this is A to have.
I'm so I want to have, I want tohave an understanding of what's
going on. I want to process what's going
on. And as a pastor, I feel an
obligation to help other people process, which is why we're
doing this episode in the 1st place.
But there's so much to process because it's, it is a global

(13:06):
moment. Yeah.
And it means so many different things to everyone.
So let's talk about that. Let's talk about people's
reactions. What do you think about people
who celebrated or who said he deserved it?
Yeah. How do we how do we process
that? I think that is the same
wickedness that led to his murder.

(13:27):
Like there you mentioned it in your sermon, but there's and
I've actually seen posts online all make across the spectrum of
people saying this, but there's it's demonic is what it is.
And it's the same, I think, demonic spirit that would bring
someone to celebrate it to actually also pull the trigger.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I was the one
that that preached about demonicstrongholds yesterday.

(13:50):
And also I'll also bring in justthe human psychological weight
to it that yeah, I've, I've seenthis and you guys know this like
the the country's. The country is in response to a
a trauma like we all witnessed. It's traumatic to see a man
bleed out before you after beingshot by 30 out of 6.
And there I, I want to give grace to people that are you.

(14:13):
Do you know what you're saying right now or is this just a
trauma response? And, and it's all of your
emotions, all of your animosity towards, you know, the other
side of the aisle, whatever. Is that all just coming
unvarnished through? I I want to give people a couple
weeks to really just kind of letthis sink in and process.
I'm trying not to hold things against anyone.

(14:33):
There's another camp of people that they're not celebrating it,
but they do have negative thoughts about Charlie that
they're expressing. And that is different than that
is different than celebration and sort of parse that out I
think is helpful. But there are there are people
that outright rejoiced over it, right?
That's demonic. Oh, I mean immediately.

(14:53):
Yes, there's there's. No, the fact that people heard
people laughing in the moment, well.
There's that video of that guy who he's got, he's got a beard.
The guy who like, I mean, withinseconds, you know, the, the shot
had gone down. Everybody got.
Processed and. He literally turns around and
and. Yeah, he's doing a lot.
In the air and he's like cheering.
I don't know if you're, if you are a reasonable human being, I

(15:17):
think you can put your finger onthat's demonic.
I think there's people that wentto church specifically because
of the response that some peoplegave.
Yeah, they identified there's. Something going on spiritual.
Depth here that I'm not preparedfor.
I'm encountering evil right right now, right?
I need to go to church. That's a great response.

(15:39):
Whenever you encounter evil and sinfulness, we want to
understand that we are evil and sin like we have a sinful nature
and we need Jesus. I think some people are going to
church specifically because theyare looking at just the
response. Totally.
I actually saw a great clip of Charlie himself talking about
this and saying that, you know, in recent years, people are
looking at the world and if theydon't believe in God, they're
looking, they're just saying this doesn't make any sense.

(15:59):
Like why are people doing what they're doing?
The world is so crazy. It just doesn't make sense.
And he said, you know, if you'rea Christian, it does make sense
because you realize that there are spiritual forces at work.
It's not simply reason and rational human beings making
decisions about what's best for their interests.
It's it's not even that's, you know, that can get chaotic in
itself. That's not even that simple.
There's demons and angels in theLord and Satan at work in this

(16:21):
world. I think Christians know, right,
that celebrating somebody's death, that's evil that comes.
From demons, I'm sure you guys too.
I got I got Christians who are on the different side of certain
certain political and cultural spectrums that maybe we are who
are in the moment saying definitely not going to
celebrate this. But I'm having a hard time

(16:42):
mourning over this guy. And I got I got a number.
I saw a number of things and gota number of emails and contacts
on this. And one of them was a person
reaching out to me just saying who's a Christian Church going
Christian and just said I agree.What happened to him should not
have happened, which is probablythe least way you should be

(17:04):
love. Yeah, that's like.
That should be the. Easiest thing I agree.
I agree that what happened should not have happened, but
they also were having a hard time with they were they were
seen it almost they in their mind an over emotional reaction
like how come Christians are mourning this guy so bad.
And then and with that e-mail though, they they attached this

(17:25):
this article or this blog post and it was like pull quotes of
CC's like things that he had said like in isolation with no
context. And honestly, when you go
through them, it's like, yeah, Iwonder if, I wonder if that
could have been better worded. But again, it was these are
pulled out of the context that Idon't know the context.
I want to go back and listen to it.
But again, it just shows that there's so many different ways

(17:47):
that people are responding rightnow.
I've haunted those types of things down and almost I can say
everyone that I have looked intohas been that sometimes the
opposite of what he was trying to say or a completely
reasonable position to have and in a grace based way of saying

(18:08):
it. And so I'm one terrified of how
willing people are to pull quotes of people out of context
to. For us three who teach and
preach, Terrifying. Well, we've even in the three of
us and the rest of the pastors on staff, we've even started
talking about sometimes we'll start talking about a topic and
we'll say what's that AI like? That's become a normal part of
our conversations anymore because it's so easy or just

(18:30):
ripped out of context. I.
Just need to go and listen to the guy like that's what, yeah.
That's what I and that's what myresponse to this person was,
take the worst of these commentsand go listen to the broader
conversation he was having aboutthis.
And again, I don't. Yeah.
I'm willing to call it evil because it's slander is what it
can amount. It's what it can amount to.
You have the if you if you're. Slandered is listed in Evil Acts

(18:53):
in the Bible. I'm having a hard time with
words and maybe it's worth saying.
I think there's two types of people that fall in this camp of
like there's obviously the murderer that we can say is
evil. There's obviously the
celebration of murder that we can say is evil.
And then there I think the next level down, it does include
include a type of slander. But there's the slander that is
I know I'm fooling people. I know I'm tricking people.

(19:16):
I know that I am photoshopping AMAGA shirt on the shirt of the
shooter and intentionally tricking people.
I know that I'm pulling this quote of Charlie Kirk out of
complete context to make it sound like he's saying the
opposite thing to say that he doesn't care about people
because he's not. He hates the word empathy.
And like, if you look at that quote balance the specific one,
like he wasn't trying to say he doesn't care about people.

(19:37):
He was saying he cares. He likes the word sympathy
better. He thinks that is a better way
to care for people. Because no one finished the
quote. Because no one can truly
understand how someone feels. And so if you're willing to
trick people, that is evil. And it's slander.
There's another level of that I still think is slanderous, but
it's I was the one tricked and Ibelieve this about him and I

(20:00):
repeat it. It's.
Like that next level down of you're not the one, like you're
ignorant, you're not evil, you're ignorant.
And I see a lot of that and thatagain, we keep saying the word
spectrum and things. I think everyone can actually
relate with what you just said of I'm seeing it all and it's
worth it to parse out the differences of what they are,
but we are seeing all of it. Yeah.

(20:23):
So you haunted down a lot of those.
I saw plenty of them as well. Yeah.
I would encourage anybody who's looking at some of the stuff.
Yeah, hunt down the the greater quote, the the longer.
Which is a great exercise period.
If I'm risking slandering a man who was just murdered, I think
it's worth looking into before Ispeak about him.

(20:43):
Yeah, I think we would probably say here that Charlie at times
could be very passionate and even to the point of maybe being
a little bit brash. And yet I think if you watch his
stuff, you realize this is a guywho loved the people he was
talking to, who cared about the.DVD I think he I heard him talk
once about and this is of courseafter his assassination.

(21:04):
I then went and watched some of his stuff and I had heard a clip
of I then heard a clip of him saying he was challenged on why
he's so provocative. And he would say, well, the
reason I tried to make my truth claims provocative is because
then people want to talk and they want to listen.
And his provocative truth claimswere things that were reasonable
positions. Something along the lines of

(21:25):
abortion is murder. Like you can say that in a less
provocative way, but he intentionally would say it in a
way that grab people's attention.
But it's not like it his provocative nature in those
settings were it wasn't like he was intentionally trying to be
rude. Right now you can pull up clips
of him being rude. But my gosh, the amount of clips

(21:47):
I've seen of him being rude versus the amount of clips you
could pull of me saying an offhand comment like I'm
terrified if people think this justifies murder or even this
justifies thinking, Well, maybe we can utilize this as a benefit
for our party or for something along those lines.
Like I heard people say that whoare completely willing to engage

(22:09):
in the conversation and, and, and they want to be empathetic a
little bit, but they say, yeah, how can we utilize this for And
it's like, utilize, utilize what?
Use it? What do you mean?
And it's because they've heard all this slanderous stuff and
they don't. I'm just willing.
This isn't true for everyone, but I'd almost make the bet.
I'd make the bet. I think that most of the people

(22:32):
I've seen hadn't ever, haven't ever listened to an
uninterrupted hour of Charlie Kirk, but they had read BuzzFeed
articles or whatever. You know, like just that
potentially amount to slander. And if they potentially amount
to slander, maybe you should rethink it before you voice that
opinion. Yeah.

(22:53):
So we've talked a lot about people's responses that I think
are largely been on the left. There's been some interesting
responses on the right that I would say are also unhelpful if
you guys are familiar with some of those.
I don't know if you guys have seen those, but yeah, some of
them have been simply, I mean, Isaw some guys posting afterwards
simply 2 words, Civil war or things like that.

(23:15):
Yeah. That's not helpful.
Either no time for people like that.
That's idiotic. That's what it is.
Yeah, I saw one person and I, I take that back.
I've seen it. I've seen it a number of times
where it's like I thought I was radical, but this just
radicalized me. Like openly saying that.
And like, it's like brother No, like brother, no.
Like that's not the response. The response should not be to

(23:38):
become more radicalized. The the response should be
should be more gospel focused, actually more compassionate,
actually more understanding likeit did this notion that what
where I was pointed, I'm now going to go farther down that
road is just dangerous. And you want to expect more from
from both sides and you tend to expect more from your own camp.

(23:59):
And again, I'm seeing guys like civil war or crusades, you know,
these sorts of things. And it's like the world is
watching our response right now,guys.
Yeah, even that night I made a post where I talked about it.
I watching this inspired me for the fight and I but I made clear
to specify, I looked at Ephesians 6 and said, you know,

(24:21):
I don't mean a fight against flesh and blood, I mean a fight
against spiritual forces. So, yeah, so some guys are
crying out for some kind of, I don't even know what they mean
by that. And I think that's kind of the
silliness of it as as people, people see that and they're
like, yeah, you know, let's fight.
And there's a level which, like,you know, Charlie himself would
say, yeah, like, you should be inspired to fight, but fight the

(24:43):
spiritual. Back well, that that's just it.
It's like the the language of fighting and warfare is is
biblical, right? Like I want to rise up and
fight. We just have to make sure we
understand that the world is watching that doesn't have those
categories and when they hear war and fight, they think actual
civil war. Which goes back just the morning
of the fact that I think CharlieKirk would have said some some

(25:06):
of those similar things of like we use words we engage in
conversation and no point you tocall for violence.
And so we see this evil of the murder, the celebration of the
murder, the slander, both those that are willing to trick people
and those that are just tricked.And then we have this call for
violence that is I have, I'm notgoing to say I have less

(25:27):
patience for, but it almost is like it it it's a different
place of anger because it's people on my side.
I'm like, you're an I want to like you're an idiot.
Like I just get more frustrated and and almost more willing to
call them mean things, you know,like you're a little rid of them
because it's like you're stop, you're shaking them.
I just want to say like, I, I mean, I, I don't, I hope this

(25:48):
isn't a prophecy, but I want to make sure that we're saying
words that we will apply to anyone.
God forbid something tragic or some sort of assassination
happens again on the like. For for maybe those who are on
the left side of things, we would say the same thing.
Don't pull quotes in isolation. Listen to what the person said.
We grieve over the loss of any instant life.

(26:09):
We need more dialogue. We need more dialogue.
There is there is a place for can we can we dig up some of his
quotes and just talk about his policies and things that he
said, Right. Like, Oh my gosh, you mean the
thing that he wanted to do that you mean the thing he was doing
when he got shot? Yeah.
There's a place for actually engaging in conversation and
dialogue and thinking of different points and even
digging into what does our faithmean and what does our faith

(26:30):
mean about politics? Like that's actually what we we
should do going forward. That's in answer to what's next
this engagement. And I don't know about you guys,
but I didn't, I, I watched a fair amount because my
algorithm's produced a lot. But I, I, I tried to watch some
of his extended stuff. I didn't watch a ton.
I'm not at the point where I cansay I agree with everything he
said because I don't know everything he said.

(26:50):
We're not here to be Charlie Kirk apologists.
So what we're trying to say is like, don't.
Don't pull quotes in isolation. Of anyone.
Of anyone of anyone like at least let's let's.
On the Bible, that's something we talk about here fairly often.
Don't pull quotes out of contextin the Bible.
Itself. There you go.
Yeah. The Bible and other people,
yeah. So this thing that we've been
talking about here kind of the the left and right reaction to

(27:12):
it. And also, I think we've brought
up even just that some have criticized even people like us
and said, are you only mourning his death because he was on, you
know, your team or whatever? I kind of want to go ahead.
It's easy to use language and I did earlier of like they're on
our side. I want to shake them and tell
them they're brain dumb. Like I've actually tried in my
official like posts on things oflike I could think of my

(27:33):
language accurately and make it precise as I tried as much as
possible to use we language. There are those among us who are
having a hard time or there are those among us who question,
well, didn't he have these negative beliefs or things like,
plus, we are all on the same team.
The enemy is demonic forces and principalities and, and evil in

(27:55):
this world. And so we're, we like full, full
stop. We are all grieving that we live
in an evil fallen world. That's what we need to get to
1st and foremost, we as human beings and we need the truth.
We need Jesus, right? So some people have tried to
equate the death of George Floydand the death of Charlie Kirk.

(28:17):
How'd you guys respond to that? So I, in my post that I sent out
to the church, I said that we'regoing to, we're going to change
and shift gears this Sunday in response to what had happened.
Primarily Speaking of, I mean, I, I mean, I don't want to say
primarily just everything that happened to Charlie Kirk thing
was kind of like the, the tipping point of it all.
And I said like we did for George Floyd.
And some people are, were, were saying like, are you saying that

(28:38):
Charlie Kirk's murder is the same as the death of George
Floyd? And I'm saying it, I'm saying,
no, these are different men, different contexts, different
reasons, different, different all that.
What I the, the point I was making was a national moment.
There was a national moment of all of us witnessing the death
and the entire country was focused on responding to.

(29:00):
It that's a very reasonable take.
That's, that's what I that's andI'm not trying to defend what I,
I people were just saying, are you saying they're the same?
I'm saying no, there is a there is a a death that happened that
we all saw happen and we are. And then the nation, the heart
and the conversation of the nation was all around processing
this. That rarely happens to this
degree. It happened with in 2020 with

(29:22):
George Floyd. It's happening now with Charlie
Kirk. That that's why.
So I mean, yeah. I actually wasn't thinking of
what you Yeah, you might. You might think that's in here,
but I wasn't thinking of what you said.
I'm. Going to go ahead and say when I
said that most people will thinkthat's a reasonable take.
I'm not going to say something that some people won't think is
reasonable. And yet it's what you're getting
at is that in the wake of the death, George Floyd died,
Charlie Kirk died. In the wake of of the George

(29:44):
Floyd death, you saw riots and burning.
And in the wake of the Charlie Kirk death, you saw church
attendance on the rise and prayer vigils.
And that's a simplistic like forthe people that got angry that I
said that, that is a simplistic description of what happened.
And yet there is a truthfulness to did we see riots and dramatic

(30:07):
like destruction of property or retaliation?
You saw people talking about doing dumb things and yet people
most often called them out if they have a community around
them that's reasonable. There were like white
supremacist signs being held up.And I saw one guy be like in the

(30:28):
official Charlie Kirk prayer vigil.
It got taken over by white supremacist.
It's like the official prayer vigil.
Prayer vigils are happening around the world right now.
So like, so like, yeah, there's idiots out there.
And I, I again, like I said, I want to be quick to call them
dumb. And yet there is a reality to
the difference in response. And I, I think it has to do with
where our political spectrum is at right now.

(30:50):
Is that the, and this is the thing that I want you guys
pushing back on. And that might not make sense to
some people, but I think it's true.
Is that the on the conservative side of politics, the center The
middle of the road conservative is a lot like Charlie Kirk and
wants to talk and has conservative values and loves

(31:11):
faith, family and country and wants their faith to influence
their politics and just wants to.
The middle of the road conservative is dubbed a Nazi by
the middle of the road liberal progressive.
No, that was great. And I, I think you, you know,
you highlighted people's reaction to those 22 events and

(31:32):
that, and absolutely, I think that's a, it's a great example
of how they're different. And also I would just add, even
even in the deaths themselves, Ithink let's just, let's just be
honest and fair. So I'd say I was thinking about
this a lot because I knew peoplewould probably ask me this
question, whether it was in person or online or wherever.
Here's here's my short answer isthat there's, there's a way in
which they're equal. And the way in which they're

(31:52):
equal is that they were both human beings made in the image
of God. And so it's tragic that they
both died, that that is a tragedy that we should mourn and
grieve. So there's that, but there is a
there is a difference in the fruit of their lives.
And I think that fruit is even borne out in how we saw the last
moments of their lives, right. We saw a man who again,

(32:15):
tragically died, but he died resisting arrest while
overdosing on drugs. Again, tragic.
He was a victim to, you know, his own habits and sins.
On the other side, you had a manwho was was was imperfect, was
broken, was a Sinner, and yet was trying to share the good

(32:37):
news of Jesus and have conversations with people and
was shot and killed by somebody else there.
There's a difference between those two things.
What would you say people's point is, and maybe I'm just not
in tune to some of the broader conversation right now, What are
people trying to? Are people trying to equate the
two or what's the what's the objective objective there?

(32:58):
Most it's coming from a right wing conservative base that's
saying on the right we do prayervigils, we don't burn cities
down when you kill one of us, itgoes back to the US versus them
mentality that. So it's not like the reaction,
is it? The reaction to yeah is is what
people. Are saying I've seen both I've
yeah, I've seen people just trying to say that these are

(33:18):
equal in the same. Yeah, I mean, they're equal in
the weight of like what you justsaid, 22 image bearers of God
died prematurely. Terrible.
Not God's plan for either one ofthem.
So I'm not going to say there's there's not similarities there,
but they were different men. So there's going to be there's
differences in their period, just like if any of us were to
die, right. So it just seems like this world

(33:40):
is just man. We're just, we want to talk
about everything except except the the blatant issue before us.
You know, like with, with Kirk passing, a man was shot and
killed in front of us all in front of live people because
people hated what he had to say.And this is the moment where we
just have to look at ourselves and say, are we going to reject

(34:01):
that or not? And seems like those who are
quickest to weigh in and whetheror not we should mourn Charlie
Kirk are also the the ones who should or shouldn't mourn him.
Like those who are saying that we I mean, either either side.
I wonder how many are also condemning this as an act of
violence. I mean, I'm watching, I'm
reading some reports right now and I'm sure those will change
as the world processes what happened.

(34:22):
But our the the seemingly increased acceptance of violence
in the name of of politics, political violence and what's
what what place does violence serve in our political
evolution? It's to survive.
Started to see is the fact that anyone can condone any of this
is scary to me. Yeah.

(34:44):
So let's there's so much we can talk about here, obviously.
Let's talk about another question that people are asking
and that somebody sent in to us that questions about the penalty
for the killer in the situation.So the governor of Utah was
clear that Utah has the death penalty.
So where we at as Christians on the death penalty and

(35:05):
specifically in this instance, there's people out there saying
they're glad that's the case. That's absolutely what should
happen. Again, I feel I feel like I'm
I'm a day behind in all the conversation.
I heard that the governor of Utah had made a statement, so
obviously not. Obviously I'm asking was he
making that statement to say this is something we might

(35:26):
pursue? I.
Don't know that it was clear. I mean, I think that's what
people might be took it as. The first when I started first
processing what had happened andI'm grieving, recognizing this
world is sinful and we need Jesus.
We need Jesus, I thought. I think he deserves death
penalty because if you don't, ifyou don't reserve that for the

(35:49):
most heinous of crimes, then what?
What's your view of justice? Like what?
I think there needs to be communication that says the
government is here to protect usagainst evil.
And so when they encounter pure evil, they punish it.

(36:11):
Yeah. So to the, to the most severe
way they know how. And I know that there's like the
desire for redemption. Yeah.
You provide that. Like, that's why you see.
Yeah. Like, yeah, there's there is
respect for humanity in that process and you want to get
there's like even like I want togive you a last meal and things
like that. But there's like you, you
provide. I think I.

(36:31):
Was taken away, wasn't it? I don't know I'll.
Double check that out. I think you're.
Thinking of yeah, you, you do provide like would you like to
speak with a chaplain? Would you?
Like to speak with a it. Doesn't happen quickly.
It's not like this happens overnight death penalty happen.
It's no. It takes a long time.
And even even with there was like 3 different times where
it's like we have the shooter. Oh, that wasn't the shooter.

(36:52):
It's like even with this guy, like they haven't looked into a
ton of of the reasons I think it's him like go through the
process of due process and innocent till proven guilty.
But then if you are guilty of doing one of the most evil
actions, which is taking the life of someone unjustifiably
feed them for the rest of his life in a prison.
It's like their niece. There's there's like this loss

(37:13):
of a sense of justice. If you say that you couldn't.
There is no imaginable thing fordeath penalty, I guess.
So I'll take the other side of this and to go back just the
notion. How do we think about this
biblically or as Christians biblically.
So clearly the Old Testament permits death penalty there in a
number of cases that that the Old Testament God for this for

(37:33):
the his people Israel, he gives parameters for how he's trying
to create his his people to livein a society and their culture
and their rules and laws. And there's a number of number
of things that warrants the capital punishment in the Old
Testament. So clearly it's there.
OK, So what does that translate for into the New Testament?
If we're if that was if that wasthe old law, we're released from
the law for that's the Old Testament, that's the old

(37:55):
covenant. We're now under the under God's
new covenant. I mean, even when you see the
New Testament, I mean, I think the clearest example we see is
Romans 13 that the government isgiven the power of the sword to
maintain law and order. And to go back to the notion of
like, OK, so, so if there's not specified details of when and

(38:16):
where capital punishment is permissible, like you were
saying, it's typically then reserved for the most heinous
crimes. And we've deemed that to be the,
the taking of another life, an eye for an eye.
You're not given the death penalty for rape.
You're not given the death penalty for extortion.
You're given the death penalty for the, the, the taking of a

(38:36):
life. And I think also the.
Premeditated taking. Yeah, the premeditated murder,
taking of a life, not manslaughter or whatever.
But there's also, I think you can also get the death penalty
for what's the official term forbeing a traitor?
Treason, Treason. Yeah, treason.
I think you can also get the death penalty for being treason
against the United States. I typically am not in favor of

(38:58):
the death penalty. And it's I my, I wrote an
article in, I wrote a paper in college saying why and I never
remember. I won't say his name, but
because I want to call him, but one of our favorite professors,
the reason they stuck out to me because he wrote back and he
said, I don't agree with your with your take on being against

(39:19):
the death penalty, but I will say it's the best paper I've
heard against it. I think you you can make the
argument biblically for it. I'm not saying that you're
violating scripture by endorsingthe death penalty.
I think it's it's one of those options.
It's like, OK, we, we have this person in custody.
We've removed their threat to society.

(39:40):
For me, I go back to human life should be spared whenever
possible. That's that's ultimately my base
conviction. If, if life is an option, then
life should be the choice. And for me, that goes to those
in the womb, to those who have committed the most grievous
acts. And I get it.
I get it. It feels like a loss of justice
there. It totally does.
The value of human life for me is substantially more weighty to

(40:04):
me. And so again, I'm not saying you
can't believe in the death penalty.
I think Charlie Kirk even believed in the death penalty.
As do many of the people that weagree with.
But I'm going to take the other side of saying that the threat's
been removed to society. I think that life should be
maintained whenever possible. Now, war is inevitable.

(40:26):
Now, if this person was a threatfrom that rooftop, still
shooting people, right, he needsto be done.
The last thing I'll say about itis while I say this, and I'm
saying this from a place of safety, somewhat
dispassionately, I'm outside of this.
I wasn't related to Charlie. I wasn't his friend, but I will

(40:48):
say you, you hurt my wife and kids.
If someone locks me in a room with you, someone's dying.
And that's my flesh coming out. And so the, the, the notion is
like, I'm not saying this passionately, like, well,
whatever, It's just you're not. Saying you're a pacifist.
No, I'm not. No, no, no, no, no.
And I'm saying, like I, I have the capacity to kill if you hurt

(41:11):
my wife or my children. But I'm saying as far as our
ultimate response to this, I do think he needs to be completely
removed from society. He's proven to be a dangerous,
deranged threat that needs to betaken care of.
And right now it's it's happenedthrough him being found or
caught or turned in or turned himself in.
I'm not just clear on the details, but but again, to I

(41:35):
think you can make the argument from the Bible.
I don't think you're being unbiblical.
I'm just saying my actual my, mystance is I'm kind of breaking
ranks with those who are typically on my side of things.
So like there is a difference between self-defense in the
moment. Even he's currently shooting
people, you kill him or you're locked.
You're he's in the way of he's going to hurt your family.
Like that's self-defense in a sense.

(41:56):
Versus the government now has someone in custody and is going
to decide what the punishment islike that would be the sense of
death. So like as in, and that's what I
mean by that is we do not put that justice in our own hands.
That is something that the government does.
When we talk about death penalty, we're talking about the
government under control througha process providing a

(42:16):
punishment. Done humanely respecting human
life, there is. A Yeah.
And you respect. Give them dignity.
We. Don't believe in towards.
You want to talk to a chaplain, they mean that, right?
Because you want to see that redemption in of his soul.
And yet what you have, there's so many things you talked about,
but what you have is the discussion that of we don't put
that justice in our own hands and we actually can have Peace

(42:39):
of Mind knowing that God will. Even the government doesn't have
the final say of final justice. That is what God does.
And and what we have is we have the ability to say either we
bear our guilt in our punishmentor Jesus does on the cross.
And that's the same thing offered for everyone.
And so the redemption that we offer, even people on death row
is just to go back to Charlie. Like that's the hope and

(43:01):
redemption that he preached. And so as Christians, we feel a
special connection to him and his death because he preached
the gospel and he preached hope.I get emotional thinking about
he preached the gospel a clear biblical repent of your sins,
follow Jesus, obey the Bible to more people than I will even
meet in my entire life. And the reality that what I've

(43:24):
learned from Charlie is he wouldif he saw his shooter put his
sins on Jesus and and be with his Lord, He would hug him.
He would be happy to see the redemption of the lost.
He'd make the seat next next to him at the table.
Of and so almighty, we're talking about some pretty
ultimate things here. And it's, there's just a

(43:45):
heaviness and I feel like we, I'm so glad we're, I'm so glad
people are interested in in grieving and processing and
thinking of such important things.
Totally two cents. I'll add on top of that is that
I think as Christians, one of the things we want to make sure
we're not thinking as we're saying, if, you know, if you're
crying out for the death penalty, it shouldn't be out of

(44:06):
revenge. Yeah, vengeance is not ours.
That's that's not the goal. So what we want is justice now.
And I want to disincentivize anypolitical violence.
Yeah, that's what that's where Igo back to a little.
Bit too right, right, right. Yeah.
So, yeah, what we want is justice and we'll leave it up to
the court system as to what that.
Yeah. So I, so I would say, yeah, I

(44:27):
think the death penalty is within the range of of justice
open, open for us. And I'll leave that to the
justice system. Whatever is the best fit for
this situation. Like you said, there's some
great arguments for why it can be the best fit for the
situation. And coherent ones against and
that actual dialogue is what we need more of.
Sure. Yeah.
All right. So on Sunday, Pastor Ryan, you
preached in your sermon, excellent sermon, by the way.

(44:50):
You preached about strongholds, demonic strongholds that exist,
and you talked about them being on the left and the right.
Can we talk about those a littlebit?
What What are some of those strongholds on the left and the
right? Yeah.
So I've seen some of the questions that came in and I'll
tell you because we solicited questions, we always tell people
that they're welcome to submit questions.

(45:11):
I would tell you that it would, I should start telling you way
sooner. I always feel like I after the
fact, but I, I feel like I can always anticipate some of the
questions. And I knew one of the questions
that was going to come in was what are the strongholds on the
right? Because I think it's, it's
probably fairly easy to identify, at least from the
conservative Christian perspective, what would be some
on the left. And I'd like to hear some of you

(45:33):
guys say, say that. But I think when we talk about
the strongholds on the right, toclarify for those who haven't
listened to the message, don't know, we're talking about, we're
talking about spiritual demonic strongholds that these are,
these are, these are ways that the enemy has captured the heart
and minds of people or groups ofpeople.
And we, we talk, we talk. And I, I made the argument, I

(45:56):
think almost too broadly of leftand right in our culture.
I think there's, there's, there's times for nuance that we
need to bring to those sides. But to speak broadly in general
terms about the strongholds on the right and strongholds on the
left. I said that I said that we have
strongholds on the left and right and I made the statement
and I want to make sure that I reiterate it.
The only place that there's not strongholds is the Kingdom of

(46:19):
God. That's the that Satan is the God
of this world. He's the lowercase G God of this
world that he's got strongholds all over the place.
And to think that your side doesn't have any strongholds.
Well, then, then that's the Kingdom of God.
And but if, if, and this is where I need to say like the
conservative vein of the American culture may embody

(46:42):
many, many great elements of theKingdom of God, but it's not by
itself the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of the Kingdom of
God is not the Kingdom of this world, but we can reflect those
things. And so that's all by way of
massive, massive preface. But I would say that that
there's there's certain strongholds on the right that
are not, that are not necessarily exclusive to the
right, meaning like things like identity politics.

(47:03):
That's a great point. Yeah.
And so to say that things are onthe right, I'm not saying that.
I'm also saying that there's things that the left and right
share that each have their own embodiment of that.
I think one of the most prominent ones would be identity
politics that we've wrapped our entire identity in into being
the left or the right or liberal, conservative,
progressive or traditional. And so I would say that when it

(47:24):
comes to the right side of things, it would be things like
identity politics. And that, that probably has a
number of subsets, but I would say, I know a lot of my friends
on the right, who are they get hives if they, if, if you bring
any sort of sensitivity to the left or like, hey, here's where
the left may have some valid points that we need to seriously
entertain. It's almost like there's a,

(47:46):
there's a, there's a mental block, which I would say that's
a stronghold against that. I and we can go into specifics
if you want. I want to.
Speak just you're a slave to whatever is defined as the
center. Yeah, which changes over time.
I I'm telling you, I'm I've got a few views on you, Logan.
The the center has shifted. Yeah, Oh my gosh.
I mean, in your lifetime, it's shifted.
And so that's one of the things I would say is, is that there's

(48:10):
massive identity politics on theright.
And I'd also say if you're asking that question from a
place of like, I can't identify any strongholds on the right,
OK, I would say that's a stronghold because that's a
sense of blindness to, to the fault of your own political
persuasion or cultural persuasion.
And to say, I would say that again, the only place that

(48:32):
there's not strongholds is the Kingdom.
And so to understand if I'm going to identify fully with the
left or the right, where on my side of the aisle are we falling
short of the Kingdom? God?
Do we not fully embody God's Kingdom here on earth 'cause
I'm. One of the things I thought was
really helpful out of what you just said was, and you can tell
me if I'm interpreting wrong. But one way, one thing I kind of

(48:52):
heard you say is that these strongholds or these places of
error, places where we're sidingwith demonic forces, it's not so
much that there's different oneson the left and the right as
much as there's just there's these evil things and the left
or the right can end up on that side in different ways at
different times, Even at different times.

(49:12):
Yeah, and to different degrees. Yeah.
So if people are wanting us to fully hash out the, the, all the
idols, yeah, across our political spectrum, idols,
idols. Could be another thing, yeah.
Well, just all all the things that we are where we're wrong
and where the political spectrums, like just to map it
out, we can't do that. Like we can't map out all of the
strongholds in ways that there'sdemonic influence in our

(49:33):
political landscape. We can't if what you're wanting
is to have. Well, there's no way one person
can do an exhaustive list. And if what you're wanting is
some even handed critique of both sides, I think what you
just said was masterful to say like, we're human beings, we're
sinful and we're prone to sin, and don't you dare think that
your side of the political spectrum is the Kingdom of God.

(49:54):
It's not. I think that there's some
truthfulness to say that there'sa lot of atheists on the left
and a lot of more faith prone people on the right.
That's a reality. Everyone knows that.
It's not controversial to say it.
We can then dialogue about why that is.
And I think there's a real sensein which some people are saying,

(50:16):
do I have to be an atheist if I'm on the left?
Because it seems like I have to like.
And liberal theology isn't the same thing as being a Christian
on the left. Yeah.
And yet there there's some correlation to to that.
And I heard a quote recently that was, I think because all of
us right now are processing someof the people in our lives that
we feel we love is are, are responding in a way that we're

(50:40):
confused by and we don't fully understand.
And we think there might be a stronghold in it.
And that goes across the board. And yet to kind of point out the
thing that I think people are wondering of, of the
faithlessness we see that's morecommon in the left in the faith,
You know, people are just more prone to faith on the right.
Is there a correlation between liberal theology and liberalism

(51:06):
or progressivism? And it is a quote I heard that I
thought was profound, but it's it was a Marxist atheist who
came to faith and went all the way conservative.
He just was a full in, he was like, I it's all in.
And he said the reason I knew I had to do that is because
whenever I was around a progressive Christian, I had the
warm feeling I was in the company of another non believer.

(51:30):
I'm not trying. This is a like, we can't hash
all this out, but people are feeling this, that there's a
correlation here. And my concern about someone's
political take does correlate with my concern for their soul.
I'm not doing a good job of, of laying out what this all looks
like. I know I'm not, but I'm touching
something that I think a lot of people are feeling.

(51:51):
Yeah, I mean, one of the ways I've said before is that the
words right and left and Conservative and Liberal are
often become totally unhelpful. The the real thing that we're
after as Christians, we just want to be biblical people.
That's what we want. So I I don't care about right,
left, conservative, liberal, whatever.
Those are. We have to use the terms in one.
Sense but we also yeah, exactly we live in a world in which

(52:12):
there are categories and actually to get more actually to
talk about something that's moreactually identifiable.
The Republican Party and the Democratic Party both have every
election year they publish a paper called the party platform.
So actually to get that's the way I think about it to get
really specific into it is what are the pros and cons of each

(52:32):
party platform. It's a it's a paper that they
write about what are the positions that represent the
party this year, you know, and so you can look at you know,
what do they say about abortion?What do they say about, you
know, all these different issues?
And so if you want to talk aboutit, that's the way I've talked
about it before, is just where, where are they more aligned with
biblical principles and where are they not?
Aligned with principles. The conversation on principles

(52:52):
is better than just left, right?Yeah.
In the book that we wrote calledWithstand We, one of the things
that we said in one chapter was that the left is the left or, or
progressives or however you wantto say it is clearly further
down the road away from biblicalmorality than the other side.
It's a fair state. They're both imperfect, neither

(53:13):
one of them is Kingdom of God. They both have sin.
And yet the left, especially when we talk about abortion, we
talk about sexuality, we talk about understanding of gender,
all that kind of stuff. They're they're further down the
road and moving away from God's design.
Is that, is that fair to say? I just want, I just want to be,
I just want to give, I know we're talking about it sort of

(53:34):
in one sense, but I just want togive people that, that sense of
like, OK, that's, that's at least a basic thing we can say.
I believe that is true. Yeah, Yeah.
I think studies will just show you the, the just the
progressive of the American cultural landscape, at least in
the 20th century. And even now, like there's,
there's the Overton window. I mean, things are moving in a
direction and each side or wherever you're at on the, on

(53:55):
the in the landscape, you have to, you have to ask yourselves,
is, is my company who I most aligned with?
Are we moving towards God's design or away from God's
design? If we're moving away from it,
how quickly does it seem like we're moving away from it?
And I, I, that's what we said. Like we seem like there's,
there's a, there's a, there's a championing on the left.

(54:16):
Again, I, I, I really recoil at using such broad terms, but
that's the way that our culture's speaking right now.
And so I understand those are going to be exceptions on every
single side. And I got friends who are
exceptions on every side that I could point to numerous of,
numerous of them. But generally speaking, this is
what we talked about, like the, you know, the radical right, we
don't want it to take over the right, the woke left, is it

(54:36):
completely embodied all of the left now where, where's, where's
things? But when we talk about the, the
shifting and the constant movingof the center and the Overton
window and then the ways that cultures evolve, it seems like
they move away from God's design, not, not not towards it.
And even the right even the right you know they're they're
increasing acceptance of abortion.

(54:58):
Our president now is is more pro-choice than than I am
comfortable being. There's there is a moving and
shifting, but there is at what pace is are they moving away
from God's time further in fact?We're unable to fully explain
all this. We're just noting correlations
and that's the best I think you can do and.
Like you said earlier, Logan, it's not like we can make a

(55:18):
quantified, exhaustive list of strongholds in every side and
weigh them together and say, youknow who's more like the?
Kingdom of God would be wrong. I would be making an idol out of
the a political party versus trying to seek.
Totally. I mean, yeah, Barn that it's
also impossible to do. I once heard a pastor say, and

(55:40):
he was, I appreciate the heart. He was trying to bring people
together and he was trying to say he was trying to point out
the good on both sides. He can't.
He comes from a fairly culturally, not just culturally,
but politically diverse congregation.
He was trying to get both sides to see Mara on each other's
side. And he said those on the right,
you need to see that those on the left are better at

(56:02):
championing things like the value of diversity and and
caring for the poor. He said those on the left, you
have to reconcile that those on the right are better at
protecting life and upholding God's standard for sexuality.
And so he's pointed out two things that each side needs to
value on the other side. And there's a there's a there's
a, there's AI think there's a, agreat challenge there that he

(56:23):
brought. The thing that I think
ultimately fell short was those four things are not all morally
equivalent. There's ones that are more
grievous in God's eyes than the other.
Does God value diversity? Absolutely.
Read Revelation every tribe, nation and tongue.
You're going to have every color, every dress of people
before the throne of God worshiping the Lamb.
We value diversity. Clearly we are called in to to

(56:46):
care for the poor and to care for those who are under
resourced. But to say that those are
morally equivalent to the to abortion, to the dismembering of
of little humans in the womb, OK, now we're now we're having a
Little Miss here. Like, let's talk about value on

(57:06):
every side. Let's not also making sure that
we've thrown out any sort of moral compass in here, in this.
And there's a sense in which that implies that the the left
doesn't care about the sanctity of life.
Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to say they they
would say we do. And it's not like the right
doesn't care about the poor. They would say we do and so.
Do some of that, Yeah. Where?
Where's the greatest emphasis and weight, and where can we

(57:27):
learn from? Each other and the thing I'm it
was like we have to use the terms and yet we don't like
using them is because the biggest reason I don't want to
like tie myself down to some label is because things change
real fast on what those terms even mean.
And so that's why I think there needs to be an an excitement
towards. We want revival of our faith in

(57:47):
the nation right now in the in the world.
We want a revival to identifyingwith King Jesus and what Charlie
Kirk would say like make heaven crowded.
That's what we want and we but also we want our faith to
influence politics. We want that.
I think we we should have more more of that.
We should have more dialogue andand bring our faith to that.
I think that there is a sentiment in our nation where

(58:08):
it's well the separation of church and state, but some
people take that to mean the separation of religion and
reason. You cannot separate these
things. It's taking it completely out of
context of what historically that net meant.
Like government has a role, the church has a role.
They should live out their role right of in society.

(58:28):
But you can't take away your sense of faith and religion from
your sense of immorality, from your sense of reason and how you
want to see things enacted in insociety and policy and just
politicking in general. You can't separate these things.
Right. So let's talk about that
question then. We're we're, we're not holding
back on any tough questions today apparently.

(58:49):
So let's talk about. That do we ever pastor John?
Nah Should Christians get involved in politics?
So many I I want to go put up a white tent on a college campus
and sit in a Stew and grab a microphone.
Yeah. I want to engage in life as a
whole and let faith influence life as a whole.

(59:11):
And that includes how do we livetogether in society that
includes that. And we need to talk more.
We need that. I want to be.
I want to be more on side of that.
And I think a lot of I think a lot of people feel that way with
all the caveats of we want to embody the fruit of the Spirit
in the midst of it. But I think one potential

(59:31):
stronghold for us Christians that have stopped us from
engaging in that is thinking that niceness is a fruit of the
Spirit. Kindness is.
And it's kind. To speak truth, you know I'm not
disagreeing with. You no, I, no, I we're agreeing.
Niceness is I've, I've said it'sneutered like it.

(59:53):
It requires nothing of you. It requires you to say hi on the
sidewalk. Kindness is way more costly and
we're called to that, not niceness.
And so we need to risk being slandered and risk saying things
that might be taken as rude. I don't want to be rude.
I don't want to be hateful, but I might need to say things that

(01:00:15):
risk being thought of as hateful.
Yeah. And I I need your help to make
sure that what I'm saying is communicated well, No.
I think that's right. I think I said it was great.
I actually feel like one of my thoughts after, you know, when
reflecting on this whole thing and thinking about Charlie's
legacy and stuff is I, I thought, man, again, we've
already said that he's imperfect, that he's passionate,
that he can be brash at times. But I just remember thinking to

(01:00:37):
myself, man, I wish sometimes I would say a little bit more of
just this is what I think instead of holding back, worried
a little bit about what's so. Hard.
I don't want to push away anyonein my family or those close to
me because they I can't. I can't always effectively
communicate what I'm thinking. I just want to talk.
I want to have dialogue. And I want to seek truth.

(01:00:58):
And I want to do that with otherpeople that want to seek truth.
Yeah, it's hard. I'm not.
I think a lot of people are processing this right now.
If, like, Charlie was alone in that tent, should there have
been more of us in that tent? Should there have been?
Should should we have? Why is it that this happened on
a college campus of all places? Should, shouldn't I have had
that conversation with that friend of mine by now?

(01:01:20):
Why am I so afraid of it? And I think it's because we
think niceness is a fruit of thespirit, and it's not.
And I'm saying this is someone that feels convicted about it
and knows I I need to be willingto be a little bit more
uncomfortable in this. Back to your question on should
Christians be involved in politics?
The answer is yes, 100%. We're supposed to care for the
welfare of our city. We're supposed to be a shining

(01:01:41):
light to to now, I think, I think people get all sorts of
anxious, especially when they'renon Christians or they're not
believers. They say, and we say Christians
should be involved in politics. I think there's a lot of knee
jerk fear that what we mean is that Christians should take over
politics and be the gatekeepers and that you're only allowed to
be in politics if you are a Christian.

(01:02:03):
I think they feel like that's where it ultimately leads and
that we're saying no, we're saying we care about the city
too. We care about the the people
too. We care about society too.
We want to help inform the laws that govern our society, and we
this it's no surprise to no one.All hands on deck.
Our morality is guided by what we believe is God's design for

(01:02:24):
humanity. So our approach is going to be
what is best for all, not just what is best for Christians.
We've even had disagreement in this episode of what does that
mean? When faith influences politics?
Where do we arrive on policy decisions?
We need to allow for disagreement in that sphere, but
we need to all be on the same page of we're trying to seek
truth and what's best and we absolutely should have our faith

(01:02:45):
influence that. People that think otherwise, I
don't think they've not sound. So I was going to say a little
bit too strongly. I was going to say it.
They haven't read a history book.
And that's that's not fair. Some people that think the
separation of church and state means separation of of any
religious influence. They don't know what separation
of church and state means. They're weaponizing that phrase.

(01:03:06):
You cannot engage in politics without a sense of morality.
And there is a faith structure in every human being.
I believe that not just as a Christian, but just, I think
it's obvious. I just need to thought I'm
saying something I think are obvious that I know some people
don't agree with. And it's I'm doing the thing I
said. I I want to do more is risk.
Risk saying things that some people might think is is wrong
or unreasonable. And yet we just need to enter

(01:03:28):
that sphere more and talk more. That's what we need to do, yeah.
I found recently, like it just seems like it's it's becoming
more evident that the reason people are so averse to certain
just truth statements is becausenot necessarily that they
disagree with the statement, they disagree with the
implications of how people may take that statement.

(01:03:49):
At 100%. Yeah, it's so real, which is
like, so we can't say true things because we're scared
people will take them and misusethem.
Like how do we arrive to? That it's there's a part of this
that's terrifying. Charlie Kirk was murdered.
I see myself in him like that's what a lot of people are
feeling. And even just saying that, you

(01:04:10):
know, there's going to be peoplethat say, well, I think Charlie
Kirk was this. Are you saying that you want to
identify as this? It's like, I don't even words.
It's like that's it's terrifying.
There's a sense in which this isa scary time for so many
reasons. And yet we do need that.
We need more conversation and weneed more risk being slandered.
That's the best way I can say itbecause that would be slander if

(01:04:32):
you're saying something about someone that's not true.
Right. Yeah, that's good.
I had a privilege last fall of teaching a class called
Christian Politics. Yeah, there's anybody should be
answering this question. It's you.
Well, you know, I actually hate that I'm stuck over here in the
like, question asker moderator chair today.
Hey, in an episode soon I'll take over for you.
Then you can be the answerer. Yeah, that sounds like more fun.

(01:04:56):
But like you said, Jeremiah 29, we're called the to love and
work for the good of the place that we live.
So yeah, Christians, we have a role in politics.
Or even could just simply ask the question this way.
Do you want, when you rather have people who have faith in
Jesus and who have the Bible as their foundational document,
making decisions about what's best for our country wouldn't?

(01:05:17):
Isn't that who you'd rather havein that chair?
Yes. 100%, yeah. Because again, I want to under
score for this for those who aren't listening, because we
believe that will lead to decisions that are the best for
all. Right.
And we need to have that good faith, even people that aren't
Christians, we just have a good faith of like we're all trying
to seek truth. We, we don't want to be hateful.

(01:05:40):
We want to be loving to have that general assumption of other
people that we're engaging with.And I think what you see in
Charlie Kirk is as you look at the, the response of many
people, I think it's a very realfeeling.
A lot of people are feeling this, especially in the church
is I don't see any grace towardshim at all, right?
I see people lying about him andthen people believing those

(01:06:02):
lies. I how can I engage with people
that I assume aren't in good faith?
And it's like, there are liars out there and then there's
people that are just believing things about people.
And you can't, you can't dig into everything about someone.
And at some point you got to take someone's word for it.
And so everyone's doing that in some way.
And we just have to assume the person I talked to is also

(01:06:25):
seeking truth. And if the world hated Christ,
sorry. Be willing.
Be willing. Yeah, if even if they aren't in
good faith, like be willing to have that happen.
It's heartbreaking to think of family members or friends that
that might happen. You know, the hard thing about
that though is, and you guys know this too, but I think I
probably feel a little bit more just because my position as the

(01:06:46):
lead pastor. It's one thing to say like, you
know, I hear people say if you if you're not being hated, if
you're not being slandered, thenyou're not in the fight.
It's like. I would love, I would love to
speak so clearly and efficientlyand precisely that no one has
the wrong idea of what I'm saying.
Well, that's just it. It's like, yeah, you say that
until they're hating you and slandering you and because

(01:07:07):
they're miss completely misinterpreting what you're
saying. That's the biggest.
Fear, that's where it's like they're not even hitting the
mark. Then like, I get it.
Jesus was killed for being perfectly righteous.
Because that's what we see in Charlie Kirk.
I think that's one of the heaviest blankets is hold on.
There's a there's certain there's some people that think
ABCD about him and I don't thinkthat about him, but we've

(01:07:29):
listened to the same clips. Is are, is that going to happen
to me? And you said at the top of the
episode, it's like there's a part in which there is a fear
of, like, that could happen to me.
Yeah. So the fear is real.
And yet what we I know the note we all want to end on is we
should be emboldened by it. Yeah, like we mean, yeah, I
mean, it's it Charlie Kirk is just the most recent real life

(01:07:52):
example. But we've had the perfect
eternal example in Christ. If they did it to him, he'll do
it to us. And I don't they is not.
I'm not pointed at anyone exceptfor those who are opposed to the
things of God. Yeah, Jesus was not afraid to
speak what was true, even thoughhe knew people would
misinterpret. Yep.
Take him out of context. And we still do today.

(01:08:15):
There's a passion we have for truth in general, but we do want
to have a greatest the greatest passion for the gospel and yet
engage like the Bible says that engaging with.
I think the Bible would lead us to say engagement with politics
is important for the sake of thecity, but also law is a is a
school teacher, right? Like we it it helps us see
brokenness in the world. And but so that's true.

(01:08:39):
And yet we do need to care most about the gospel.
But one problem with why I thinkthe Overton window in society is
so crazy is because Christians have been too quiet on politics
because we say we only want to deal with gospel issues.
Well, what what's been stigmatized the most?
What do they say that you don't bring up in good company?
Religion and politics. It's like, OK, the two primary

(01:09:01):
things that govern our way of life, we can't talk about now.
Like, no wonder we are sliding more and more into darker times.
You know, when we talk about Christians in politics, you
know, I think here's here's here's an imperfect example.
Let's say you live on a subdivision and there's 30
houses there. Let's say over over 2 week time

(01:09:23):
of those 30 houses, 25 of them get new 2020 of those homes are
you've got 20 Christian familiesthat now moving to 20 of the 30
homes that subdivision should feel a qualitative improvements
in the joy, safety, shared resources, kindness.

(01:09:43):
OK. If we think that should happen
at that microcosmic level of a subdivision, that should, that
should also translate then to government.
Like if the vast majority of people assuming office became
Christian, that should improve the overall state of society.
That shouldn't scare people. That should that people should,
would welcome and want that. If we know that if, if there's a

(01:10:05):
subdivision with 30 houses and overnight 20 families moved in
and we and we feel like, well, that would make that that
subdivision better. Yeah, yeah.
Because that's what we should bedoing.
And so let's, let's translate that out into the, the, the
political and office bearing world.
And I would say I would would pray that would be the same.
Yep. Awesome.

(01:10:26):
Well, hey, let's wind down with two final questions.
Let's do it. First question that I'm sure
people are asking. This is a question we have
addressed on the show before, but let's at least address it
again here briefly. So why does God allow so much
evil in the world? Yeah.
Can I just say it's one preface thing?
I know we've gone on so many tangents, but this is something
I wanted to bring up in the message.
And just, it just the opportunity didn't arise was I

(01:10:50):
think one of the reasons that for better or for worse, the
reason that Charlie Kirk was so effective was because it's
amazing to me how patiently he was willing to answer the same
question over and over and over.He would go to different
campuses and people would stand at the mic and ask the very same
question that they just asked atthe previous campus.

(01:11:11):
And sometimes even in the person3 or 4 question askers before
them. And he never once did he say,
I've already answered that. Go look up the clip online.
I, I, I've already answered that.
Go listen to this podcast. I already answered that.
I wrote a blog on it. Every single person who was
before him, he would take time to answer their question as if
he was answering it for the first time.
That for me as a pastor was I just thinking about his, you

(01:11:35):
know, his legacy. That's a massive challenge to me
because how many times it would be so easy for when people
e-mail me or ask me a question for me to be like, I'll put them
to this resource and I've got time to answer your question
right now, but check out this resource as supposed it just,
you know what, give them 3 or 4 minutes, answer the question and
then just say, hey, for further dialogue, you know, here's

(01:11:57):
here's the thing. So back to the question.
Here's the thing that that question will forever be asked
until Christ comes and makes allthings new.
The reason that God allows perfect, the reason that God
allows imperfect things, the reason that God allows the
brokenness of the world is because there is a brokenness to
the world and God is allowing history to play out.

(01:12:18):
He's allowing humans to make certain decisions on their own,
but yet through it all, God is going to be using all of this
for a greater good. This that's part of the mystery
that that we have a hard time fully comprehending.
So that's where faith steps in. That's where we have to believe
in in where things all things are headed and we it's OK to ask

(01:12:38):
that question because it's confusing sometimes things that
haunt me every single night is there's little girls who are
trafficked right now in Thailandconsistently.
God bring a stop to that and with that and so many other
things that it you know, the response is what's the church
doing like why does God allow Vadnais to happen?
Well, because he put the church in the world to make it, to make

(01:13:00):
it stop. But we get too concerned about
what time the Lions game's on, You know, we get too concerned
about all these other things. And as opposed to doing the
First things first and doing those second thing secondary
things later. How would you answer that,
Pastor Logan or Peace Church's family?
Pastor, I love the I have three thoughts.

(01:13:21):
I hope I can say all three of them.
What you said is great. I think that the perfect example
of the fact that God can and does use evil for good is the
cross of Christ that that we call it Good Friday.
It was a wickedness that the Sonof God died and the most wicked
thing imaginable. And yet it God brought about the

(01:13:41):
most amazing thing ever, which is the redemption of souls.
And so God can and does use evil.
Right, right. So just to follow up on that,
like this is what happens when people only live in the moment
and they don't see the bigger picture.
Joseph, for example, you know, his great statement at the end
of his life was, or I mean it wasn't the end of his life, but
the great statement he said, wasthat what you thought was evil,

(01:14:03):
God used for good. We only see even the moment
because we only think about the moment.
We don't think about, We don't step back and see the eternal.
Perspective. Yeah, we can't.
And some, I mean, and that we'vesaid this before, sometimes it
takes a lifetime to learn those lessons and sometimes we won't
learn about it in this life. We'll have to go to the next
life to see how it was all working together.
To like a cherry on top of all that is we, we need to see

(01:14:29):
family first as our, as our strategy.
Like you, you can't just go change the world.
You you need to see your family as your first ministry.
Yeah, I mean we. Bring truth Best Sunday to your
family first. Yeah.
And then bring that truth into your church community and then
community from there. That's how we're changing the
world. If everyone does that, that's
what we will see is revival. And that's what's so insanely
incredible about the aftermath of all of this wickedness, is

(01:14:52):
people saying, I'm going to go sit in Charlie's seat.
Yeah. And I, I was brought to tears
trying to explain to one of our elders on Sunday of like I can,
if, if Charlie knew that his death would have resulted in
millions of people attending church, I don't know if he would
have dodged the bullet. And so that's the weightiness of

(01:15:16):
what we're dealing with. And the we're talking about
evil. And so we should mourn.
And yet what are we praying for?Praying for revival.
We're praying for this to actually change hearts.
And it's, it's in, it's just so sobering to think that it's,
it's happening like it's we're people are waking up to these
deep, deep questions. Oh, I mean at Peace Church and I

(01:15:37):
don't we can maybe cut this out.I don't know if we need to talk
specifics or not, but between last the the prior week in this
past Sunday or you know, the theSunday following Kirk's
assassination, we saw a 800 person spike in attendance.
We had 800 more people come the week after Charlie Kirk died
than the week before, and it'll be in the coming weeks where we

(01:15:58):
see how much of this is actuallysparked into true revival.
My prayer is not that we retain most of them.
My prayer is that even more people come in the coming weeks
so that this, this whatever happened, whatever God is doing,
it continues to grow and grow and grow.
No, our prayer needs to be rightnow that that people can keep
coming, Right? Keep.

(01:16:20):
Keep. Listening, it'd be so easy for
me just as a like a pragmatic leader to be like, OK, so 800
people came. Man, I hope at least 600 of them
come back. It's like what?
You should be praying that 1600 more come next week, you know,
like, like, oh, ye of little faith.
Like are you part of this Kingdom or not?
Like, let's go. Yeah.
Hey man, guys. So, Pastor John, as we close up,

(01:16:42):
me and Logan have dominated thisconversation.
This is your show. We want to give you a chance.
Let's answer the last question, which is a perfect question to
end on. Pastor John, what is the
Christian hope? Yes, Yep.
The bad news the Bible gives us that we all know we've gotten to
see recently is that we are sinners.
Romans 323 all of sin and falling short of the glory of

(01:17:04):
God. We've all fallen short of God's
perfect standard, sinned againstHim.
Romans 623 tells us the wages ofsin is death.
We deserve eternal death for oursin, and yet the good news of
the gospel is that Jesus came and He lived the perfect
righteous life that we couldn't live.
He died the death for sin that we deserved to die, and He rose
from the grave so that we can put our faith in Him and have
life forever. Romans 623, the verse finishes.

(01:17:25):
The gift of God is eternal life,not something we earn, but it's
a gift, a free gift. That's the hope.
That's the hope for the assassinin this situation.
We hope and pray for justice, but justice we most hope for
will come through him repenting of his sins, turning to Jesus,
and Jesus paying for his sins onthe cross, that he would receive

(01:17:47):
eternal salvation. We pray for that, and all of us
need that. We've talked about different
ways that we have sinned our ownlives.
We've talked about people who have responded to this whole
thing in a sinful way. The hope of every Sinner is
Jesus Christ, that we can repentof our sin but our faith in him
and have eternal life. That's our hope.
The day is coming when Jesus returns and there is no more sin

(01:18:08):
and death and sickness and terrible things like this.
So we long for that day. That's the Christian hope.
Amen. I'm not a big fan of Christian
rock, but there's a Christian rock song and my favorite line
in it is a song called Keep Waiting.
And it the, the for me, the one of the most beautiful lines is

(01:18:31):
it's, it's supposed to be Christspeaking to us.
And it says keep waiting. I'll be right on time.
And it's just like when you, when you just when you feel like
the Lord is tearing, he's not it.
This is all according to his plan.
He will, he will come. And that is the great hope that
we long for. Yeah.
So put your faith and hope and trust in Christ.
So when that day comes, it's a great day for you, not the

(01:18:51):
terrible day that will be for somany.
Amen. Have a great week everybody.