September 30, 2025 • 37 mins
Bitterness is easy to hide but hard to shake. Left unaddressed, it seeps into our hearts, poisons our relationships, and blinds us to God’s grace. In this episode, host Jon Delger, the Multiplication Pastor, and Logan Bailey, the Family Pastor at Peace Church, take an honest look at bitterness — where it takes root, how it silently shapes our lives, and how the gospel offers the only true path to freedom and healing.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Hey, welcome to.
That's a good question. Great to be with you.
(00:28):
My name is John. I can serve as your host, and
I'm here with Logan. Logan Bailey, family pastor at
Peace Church. And we're excited to have
episode 3 here of our series Sins we keep in the dark.
In the dark gets covered up and the light gets exposed.
That's the goal, talking about these sins that we keep in the
dark. So we've talked about lust in
(00:49):
episode 1. We've talked about Pride in
Episode 2 and now episode 3. The best of all three, Yeah.
Revenge of the Sith, Revenge of the bitterness.
Bitterness is what we're talkingabout today.
So our main verse. I'll read it for us, then we'll
get into discussion. Here we go.
Ephesians chapter 4. The Bible actually talks quite a
bit about bitterness, so we've got several verses we could look
(01:10):
at. I've got 3 in mind specifically
to talk about today, but here's the first one.
Ephesians chapter 4. There's 31 and 32.
Let all bitterness and wrath andanger and clamor and slander be
put away from you along with allmalice.
Be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another
as God in Christ forgave you. So I think that's a great, just
(01:31):
a great main verse to use to talk about this topic because it
addresses, you know, how bitterness is something we need
to put away. And then the tail end of the
verse talks about how that's rooted in the forgiveness that
we have through Christ. So I think that that sets us up
really well. So let's talk about what this
thing is. What in the world is this thing
called bitterness? I don't know, I'm just kidding.
(01:55):
Wrong answer. Are you better?
That I don't know. The answer?
I actually love, I really love the verse that you just read
because I think it's one of the most uncomfortable verses to
read, almost similar to the verses that say don't be
anxious. You know, that thing that you
feel like you are totally justified in being.
(02:16):
Don't be that. That's can be hard.
Yeah, yeah. This is almost like a hard verse
to read. It's beautiful in the vision.
It gives us a a life without bitterness would be awesome,
just like a life without anxietywould be awesome.
And yeah, we live in a fallen world.
So it's so hard for us to conceive of what it would look
like if we truly were all fully sanctified and like Christ, as
(02:38):
we should be, which we have thathope for eternity.
But we want to see some of that now as Christ, as the Holy
Spirit works in US. And this is one of those verses
that's like, oh man, that's that's a hard verse.
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like the way you said that
it's something that we feel likeentitled to have bitterness.
Yeah, Yeah. So it's it's so it's a feeling
(02:59):
we feel. And I think it's fair to say
that the the root of it is unforgiveness, right?
That that's another word to describe bitterness.
It's unforgiveness. Something somebody has wronged
us in some way or we've sufferedsome kind of injustice and we
instead of letting it go, we hold onto it.
And that is, that is really whatthat's that's the bitterness,
(03:19):
yeah. I like, I think this, I got this
from you, but grief is somethingthat actually can kind of lead
to like naturally can lead to resolving itself.
Like there's a process you can go through, but bitterness is
something that it just it festers.
And by the way, I've heard you say it like it calcifies into
something else. I love that word.
It like it, it actually can. There's a word I'm looking for,
(03:43):
Like ferment a bit into something different, something
gross and nasty that's hurting you more than you realize as you
hold onto it. Yeah.
So yeah, Matthew 18 parable Jesus tells about the unmerciful
servant. So you can find that starting in
Matthew 18 verse 21. But I'll just give you a quick
summary. This is that famous passage when
(04:04):
Peter is asking Jesus how many times you have to forgive
somebody. And Jesus says, you know, not 7
times, but 70 * 7. And then he gives a parable and
he talks about a servant who owed his master a whole bunch of
money. The master forgives him his debt
instead of making him pay. But then that servant goes out
and his buddy who owes him just a little bit of money, he chokes
(04:25):
him and says you have to pay what you owe.
And then the master finds out and then throws that servant
into jail because of how? Yeah, incongruent that is.
If you're a numbers guy and you dig into the the amount that was
forgiven and then the amount that he then went and didn't
forgive, it's almost like humorous how vastly different
(04:49):
those two numbers were. Like an unimaginable debt that
he was forgiven. Like the number there I think is
like 20 years of Labor or something.
It's like millions of dollars. Something.
Like 100 bucks. Yeah, yeah.
That really drives the point home almost in like a, you know,
like a humorous way. Yeah.
(05:09):
Like, isn't that ridiculous? And then kind of looking at you
like, and aren't you a little ridiculous?
Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, I, I felt convicted just reading it.
I mean, I mean, that's the thing.
So we all, there's something we all experience and feel.
I think at least at least I do on a regular basis.
I have moments during the day where I'm like, you know, that
thing happened to me and it could be something recent, could
be something a long time ago. Both of those things I think
(05:31):
pump into into my mind from timeto time.
And I think that was terrible that that person did that.
That was unfair. I suffered that.
I'm angry about it and I'm holding on to that.
And as I was reading Matthew 18 today, just thinking about this
episode, I was, I was convicted of my goodness.
Think about how much the Lord has forgiven me for my sin.
(05:51):
How can I not forgive this otherperson for what they've done
against me? It goes really well.
It's like a compliment to last episode on Pride, just like
viewing yourself rightly and having like that correct sober
minded view of the situation. You have been forgiven much,
Forgive much right now. Yeah, yeah.
(06:12):
So since the logic is so easy. Right.
I say that as if it's easy. You're right.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing
We're we're talking about the message from the Bible, I think
is actually very simple. It's not complicated.
We don't have to do, you don't have to do a ton of Greek and
Hebrew stuff to like figure out what is the the point around
bitterness. It's actually really clear.
(06:33):
God forgave you and so you should forgive others.
It's actually quite clear. It's also in the Lordsburg,
another place to find it. But why is it so hard then?
Why do we struggle so much? Right.
I think it's so real and raw, those emotions of bitterness it
(06:53):
you can't change how you feel about things Like I feel that
deeply. Yeah, it makes me think.
I remember John Piper discussing, he talked, he
preaches a ton about having joy in God, right?
He's talking about, you know, the Bible calls us to have joy,
but you don't get to just tell yourself to have joy.
And it's like trying to, you know, he said it's not like
trying to lift your pinky finger.
(07:14):
He said you can just, you know, in your brain you can say pinky
finger go up, pinky finger go down and it does.
But joy or happiness or those kind of feelings, you can't just
say self feel happy. Same thing with bitterness,
right? You can't just say self don't
feel that way. It's not.
You can try but it doesn't work so well.
(07:34):
Yeah, there's like a therapy model of there's your feelings,
your thoughts and your actions, and they sometimes aren't
congruent. And so when your feelings try to
dictate your actions and your thoughts, you have very little
control over your feelings. You have a little bit more
control over what you think and you actually have control over
(07:57):
more control over what you do. And so sometimes if you're, you
know your head and your heart aren't in line aligned in your,
your, your feelings are over here, your thoughts are over
here. Sometimes you kind of have to
choose, well, I'm going to do this even though I don't feel
like doing it. And that eventually will help
your feelings kind of catch up to where you're at.
Or that's that same model works with helping understand why it's
(08:23):
so important we tell ourselves truth and why it's so important
that we get at what it, what arethe lies that you're believing?
Because that thought piece also deeply influences what how we
feel and what we do at the end of the day.
And so it's actually very practical to remind yourself of
truths, even the simple ones, because we believe lies very
easily, right? So one of the things, So, yeah.
(08:45):
And so we've called that before,like preaching truth to
yourself. If I preach the gospel to
yourself, you know, take what God says in the Bible and you
know, read it, yes, but also take it and try to just, you
know, tell it to yourself self believe this, this Christ has
forgiven me. I I need to forgive others.
You need to preach that to yourself.
One of the objections I've heardfrom people to like what you
(09:05):
just said is well, that's inauthentic.
If I feel that way but I act a different way, aren't I living a
lie? I mean, you are more than just
your inclinations. You're more than just like
you're meant to live for more than just do what you're
(09:26):
oriented towards to do, because sometimes we're oriented towards
sin. We're meant to be men and women
that are like Christ and, and live virtuous lives and, and
holy lives. And so we're more than just what
you feel we have to be, right? That's like a very humanistic
way of viewing what we are. We're more than just like the
blood and neurons pumping in ourbodies, like we actually have
(09:50):
higher callings than just doing letting our feelings dictate
what we do. Right.
And you only always did what youfelt that would not be, that
might be quote UN quote authentic, but that might, that
would not be such a good thing. You're back and have a whole lot
of friends or a very, very healthy life if you if you live
that way. I mean, I think about my kids.
If I told my kids, you know what, you should just always act
(10:10):
out. Exactly what you feel, yeah.
That probably is not going to goso well, yeah.
Yeah. And, and I think to kind of go
back to John Piper, one of the things that he'll communicate is
actually it's it's going to windup you being more fulfilled at
the end of the road of you sometimes fighting against those
(10:32):
emotions and doing and thinking what you know to be true versus
just following your inclinationsall the time.
A true joy is actually sometimesfound in delaying that
gratification. Yeah, for the sake of deeper
gratification, deeper satisfaction.
And we know that like in Hebrews, it says that for the
joy, for the sake of the joy in front of him, he died in the
(10:53):
cross. Like Jesus, the cross has
delayed gratification of like I'm I'm willing to go through
suffering and sometimes the deepest suffering we can go
through is denying ourselves. That's what we mean when we say
that. Deny that deep feeling you have
in this moment for something greater later, yeah.
All right, so if we said that, you know, there's the feeling,
(11:15):
OK, and we've said on the one hand, we need to fight against
the feeling. On the other hand, we shouldn't
just live it out. How do we but but it's still
there. Does that mean we just.
And acknowledging that bitterness is some of the
deepest feelings we can feel, OK?
Like that goes deep in our hearts when we feel it.
Yeah. Yeah, so the solution isn't to
just say pretend it doesn't exist.
(11:36):
Absolutely not. Oh, that would just lead to more
bitterness at the end, right? You can't fool yourself that
good. You.
We're really good at fooling ourselves.
But like, that'll come back, right?
Yeah, right. So let's talk about a process
for how to, how to kind of face it, how to deal with.
It so that's a unique everythingwe brought up is on the table
and it's like what do we do withall this yeah yeah I.
Think that's what we've been doing, putting stuff on the
table. It exists.
You can't deny it, but you also can't just live it out.
(11:59):
What do? You do with this deeply
affecting you, and you can't, Yeah, you can't ignore it, Yeah.
And in, in most cases, maybe notin all cases, but in most cases,
it's, it's because something actually has happened.
It's not just in your head, right?
Like it's usually comes from something somebody did or said,
something that led to, and sometimes it's super terrible
(12:20):
and that's led to this bitterness.
So there's like there's other people involved, there's actual
events that happened, all this kind of stuff.
So let's think about like a process for how one could begin
to address in a healthy biblicalway their feeling of bitterness.
I think step number one is to identify and name it right?
(12:40):
To say, all right, I recognize here now that I have bitterness
inside of me that I'm holding onto this thing.
You know, for me, that's usually, I usually don't realize
it right away. It's usually after some time has
passed, I realize, hey, for a few weeks now, I keep thinking
about this thing that I'm reallyangry about.
Oh, you know what? I think I actually am bitter.
(13:02):
I I have bitterness. I'm holding on to something.
I'm not letting it go. I'm not forgiving somebody.
All right, we should, we should figure this out.
So so naming it identifying. I'm angry, yeah.
And here's why. Then I think we go into.
So then the Bible, I think is going to give us.
One just to say too, and here's why, because there's a reason,
(13:23):
there's actually something logical about why that
bitterness is there. And so don't just acknowledge
that you are bitter, but understand why, like get to the
root of it because then you won't be able to actually
address it. It's like when you're wedding a
garden, you actually have to pull the roots out.
So you need to understand what the root is.
Why are you angry? Why are you hurt?
What happened? Like it's the reasonable where
(13:43):
did. It come from Yep, Yep,
definitely. So then I think we branch into
kind of two different directionsthat the Bible would tell us and
how to deal with it. One Direction is sort of in your
own heart and with the Lord, andthe other direction is with that
other person and they're relatedand yet not the same.
So yeah, we got to kind of thinkabout both of those things.
So Matthew 18, actually the samechapter where that parable of
(14:06):
the unmerciful servant is, is also a chapter where Jesus gives
us guidelines, steps for dealingwith this kind of situation with
another person. Jesus says that if your brother
has sinned against you, what areyou supposed to do?
You're supposed to go to them and address it.
And often your bitterness comes from sin, right?
Other people's sins. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So in dealing with the other person, the answer is to go to
(14:30):
them and talk about it. You know, if you've if you've
done something terrible to me, I'm supposed to go to you and
say, Logan, when you did this, Ithought, you know, it's funny
when I'm saying this out loud, it sounds like I feel like I'm
talking to my kids because this is exactly this is this is how I
was taught as a kid. But it's funny how we as adults,
whether we were taught as kids or not, we don't seem to do it
so well, even as grown-ups. Yeah.
(14:51):
But this is the thing. You, you go to your, your, your
brother or your sister and you say, Hey, you did this to me.
That made me feel this way. You know, let's, let's talk
about it. And then that goes into kind of
different levels, right? They could respond really well
and be like, I'm so sorry. And then you've got
reconciliation happens, can't happen.
Or it can go the other way and they can say you shouldn't feel
(15:13):
that way or I didn't do that, or, you know, and then that
leads into its own adventure. Classic line is forgiveness
takes one person, reconciliationtakes 2 right.
And so like you need to be prepared for not having the
expectation of the only way I can get over this bitterness is
if they apologize. Well, forgiveness actually
(15:35):
doesn't depend on them repenting.
So it's a tricky piece, but the reason that that's true is
because of the, you said there'sa part here that's about God and
a part here that's about other people.
It's like because of the God part there, that's why
forgiveness only takes one, because there's one that went to
the cross. And yet as far as reconciliation
with other people, the hope it should be unity and
(15:57):
reconciliation and that it's a mutual desired and and yet we
would don't always get that, which makes forgiveness that
much harder, right? And and that's exactly why I
kind of separated out the two paths.
There's yeah, there's, there's dealing with other, other
people. And sometimes it goes well,
sometimes it doesn't. We don't have full control over
that. We only contribute, you know,
one part of that. Then the other side is just your
(16:19):
own heart and the Lord. And it's interesting.
So you've read Chris Brown's book Unpacking Forgiveness.
I've heard of it. He it's a very interesting book.
He makes the argument that you can't forgive somebody unless
they repent and ask for your forgiveness.
That's the argument he makes in the book, really.
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I can't say that I'm
really there. I think he makes some really
(16:41):
important points about how repentance works.
I, I, but I think the way you said it is, is the more
traditional way to say it. I think that I think that's much
that's more what I, that's what I would say is that there's
forgiveness and there's reconciliation.
Right. Well, and to that point, the the
reason that I do think it only takes one person to forgive,
(17:02):
that it's not dependent on theirrepentance, is because God is a
God of justice and he will repayevil.
And so you can forgive knowing that the evil that's been done
will be paid for. And they may be the one paying
for it or Jesus will pay it for them.
But God is a God of justice and we'll make sure that that gets
(17:23):
paid for, right. So then then you, it doesn't
matter if they apologize to you or not.
Like that's why, yeah. Sure.
He, I mean, he grounds his argument and saying, well, does
God forgive us if we don't ask for forgiveness?
And the answer is no, right. I mean, like we only receive
God's forgiveness when we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord
and Savior and say, Lord, I trust Jesus to take away all my
(17:43):
sins, which is us, you know, confessing repentance.
So he's saying, you know, between US and God, we only get
forgiveness when we come with repentance.
And so he's saying, shouldn't itbe the same way between humans?
Yeah, I think he's meshing. Yeah, yeah.
Reconciliation a little bit withwhat?
Yeah. Yeah, I.
Don't, I don't think Scripture gives us that like clearly says
it like that. So I think I think, yeah, when
(18:04):
we look at Scripture and think about how that works out
practically, I think what you laid out makes the most sense,
that forgiveness is between US and the Lord in our own hearts.
Reconciliation is between two people.
So reconciliation isn't entirelydependent upon us.
We can't always get there, but then forgiveness, our own hearts
and before the Lord, is something that we, you know, we
can work on separately ourselves.
(18:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like an interesting
piece here, this is less speaking to the person that is
struggling with bitterness and listening to us and more just
like as we're thinking intellectually and theoretically
about bitterness and pathways offorgiveness and things thinking
(18:46):
theoretically on that. It's, it's important for us to
keep in mind that to to be humble in that we've also sinned
like there is none of our hands are clean.
My one of my favorite examples of this in the Bible is I forget
his name, but he's one of the guys that's carrying helping
carry the ark of the covenant and the ark of the covenant
starts to fall. This, this peace.
(19:07):
You know, it was a holy thing that he then this man tries to
catch it. And RC Sparrow once said the
mistake he made is he sought hishands were cleaner than the
ground. And so none of our hands are
clean in this fallen world in which we're trying to forgive
(19:29):
and not hold on to bitterness again, it's just a good reminder
of like what the Bible is leading us towards is an
eternity where all things are made new.
And so the ideal that we should have, that we're being LED
towards, sanctified, towards theHoly Spirit is guiding us
towards transforming us into, isa place of a fully redeemed
(19:49):
creation of no sin, where we arewho we are meant to be, fully
sanctified like Jesus, in which it's not as tricky, but in this
fallen world, it's a beautiful process and yet very messy.
Yeah, so continuing down the road of So I, I don't think
we're going to go super far in the this episode about, you
know, working. We're not going to solve
everything. We're not going to solve.
(20:10):
We're not going to solve all of it, but going back to at least
within our own hearts, because Ithink that's bitterness.
I think when when the scripture talks about bitterness, I think
it's specifically talking about an an issue within your own
heart. So there's the reconciliation
side over there with one person,with another person, the
forgiveness bitterness part withour own hearts.
OK, so we've acknowledged it, we've identified it, we've tried
(20:32):
to work on it with the other person.
It either it's going well or notwell.
I mean, the next step is to comeback to the gospel, right?
Is to say I have been forgiven much and to preach that truth to
myself. I've received Jesus as my Lord
and Savior. He has forgiven and wiped out my
sin entirely. That's amazing.
An entire life of sin, past, present, future.
(20:55):
And so now I have to give forgiveness for this terrible
thing that's happened to me, whatever that might be, right?
Yeah. So thinking practically for
those listening that are struggling deeply with
bitterness, I just, it's, I justwant to acknowledge how
difficult it is to go about thisprocess.
(21:17):
But it is very true that Christ has died for sins and he has
died for your sins. And let that be the focus of let
that be where you spend your energy.
And that will, that's the best advice I can, I can.
Yeah. Because it's so there's so many
unique situations that could cause bitterness and they're
(21:37):
very real. Like there's a reason you're
better. It's reasonable, it makes sense.
It's logical to then be bitter and angry about something.
And yeah, I think of Philippians4 where I'm I'm comparing
bitterness to anxiety again, just two things that God tells
us to not be And it's like, well, how can I not be that I
(21:58):
feel it so deeply it and it makes sense.
It's reasonable that I feel thisway.
It's reasonable I'm anxious or reasonable that I feel better.
There is a reasonable list to it.
And yet when Paul talks about not being anxious like the Lord
tells us to, because the the onethat tells us to not be better,
not be anxious is Jesus. But Paul then says Philippians 4
(22:20):
verse 5. This is right before he says do
not be anxious about anything and the peace of God will you
know, pray God go to God the Pentagon and the peace of God
will guard your heart and mind. But right before that in verse
5, he says let your reasonableness be known to
everyone. The Lord is at hand, living in
light of the fact. The Lord is the one telling us
(22:40):
this. Let your reasonableness be known
to thus around you. It's like, yes, it makes sense,
it's logical that you feel bitter or anxious, and yet the
most reasonable thing to do is to not be anxious and depend on
God. The most reasonable thing to do
is not be bitter, but give it tothe Lord, not be bitter, but let
(23:01):
him take it to the cross becausethere's this tangible sin that's
now in the world and it has deeply cut you and others.
The Lord will take care of that sin.
You don't need to have the burden of of carrying that.
And so that's why people describe forgiveness as letting
yourself out of the jail cell. It's like you're the one that's
trapped by this bitterness. And allowing you like your
(23:24):
unforgiveness is just keeping you in that jail cell.
And what forgiveness does is it releases you from that jail cell
of, of bitterness, the tangible sin God will deal with.
Yeah. And the intricacies of all of
what that could mean in people'slives of listening is a mess.
We couldn't even capture all of it.
It's real. Well, and like you said earlier,
(23:45):
in an eternal sense it will be dealt with.
Either will be. Suffering for it in hell or
Jesus already paid for it on the.
Cross, like he did you, Yeah. For you, right.
And so the forgiveness piece in your own heart is possible
because of what cross, the crossmeans.
And that's reasonable to do, to like, let it.
Yeah. It's like, let go of it.
(24:05):
But also it's like, have it let go of you because it's holding
you down. Yeah.
Totally. Well the the last verse I wanted
to make sure and and hit was on that point.
Romans 12/19 says beloved, neveravenge yourselves, but leave it
to the wrath of God for it is written vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. That's like that's AI mean
(24:26):
that's pretty, that's pretty strong.
Leave it to the wrath of God. Vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. You know, that's not like, oh,
forget about it. That's not, you know, decide
that it's no big deal. That's like God is going to have
real justice for this thing. Justice will be done.
If it's possible to believe it, which it is, but it's hard to
(24:50):
do, God is angrier about this than you are.
Yeah, totally. So a handful of quick questions
here. I kind of want to call this the
Lightning Round, but I don't know why.
Is it a? Real.
Lightning round because I don't know if you don't answer these
fast. Enough.
I don't know if our last lighting rounds for that
lightning. Yeah, that's fair.
(25:10):
OK, lightning round. Ding, Ding, Ding.
Here we go. Bring it on.
All right, Pastor Logan, how do I know if I've really forgiven
someone? Gosh darn it, this is hard
lightning around. Damn it, ma'am.
Yeah, yeah, I'd say that becausewe live in a fallen world there
(25:35):
Will. I was going to say, oh, because
you aren't bitter at them anymore.
The question was, how do I know if you've forgiven someone?
But like, yeah, that sinful nature of yours is going to try
to convince you that, oh, you should still be upset with them.
And so it's hard to let your feelings dictate be be the
determining factor if you've truly have moved on or not or if
(25:56):
you truly have forgiven them or not.
So it's hard to answer that question, but I will say kind of
as the the answer and for the whole podcast is or one of the
answers is, Hey, here's what we should do.
It's not something you do in a moment.
It's something that you live out.
It's something that you decide to do for the rest of your life
(26:18):
is depend on on Jesus and focus on the cross and let that be
your answer. But that be the answer to the
questions that come up in your heart.
Is the cross something you do throughout your life, not
something that you just bam, allright, yeah, forgiven.
Moving on. It's like, that's not how it
works. It's a decision you make every
day, almost. Yeah, I like that.
I was because I was thinking about that, you know, initially
I think like a traditional answer to this has been, well,
(26:40):
when you look at the person, do you feel the thing?
Does that come up? But yeah, like you said, I think
for for at least some of these things, you're always going to
have the temptation for bitterness come up when you see
that person. So it's it's the question.
It's each and every time you seethem.
Do you choose to give into your sinful nature or do you choose
to believe the gospel and fight against sin?
(27:02):
Yeah, it's a good answer. Nice work.
All right, next question. Is it OK?
And actually, this is ironic. I feel like when we've done, we
got this question a lot from teens when we've done panels for
our panels. Group.
Yeah, yeah, we do that every year.
Yeah, yeah. Here's here's the question.
Is it OK to cut someone out of my life after forgiving them?
Yeah, there's AI think it's in Titus, but there's there's
(27:27):
verses that say like have nothing now to do with this
person. Yeah.
Or or at least, you know, treat them like an unbeliever and that
does it mean five. Yeah, those things that doesn't
necessarily mean like I need to write a cease and desist letter.
I need to like get a restrainingorder or something and put it in
and like I, I can no longer eversee this person.
(27:47):
It doesn't mean that as much as it means like, recognize that,
OK, they need Jesus. Yeah.
Recognize that they are. And how do you treat somebody
who needs Jesus? That doesn't mean you like,
treat them terrible. You treat them as somebody you
want to see meet Jesus you want to reach out to.
But as far as like people that you have in this like a past
relationship with that, whether that's like a, a father that has
(28:12):
sent the answer to you or a, a friend that used to be really
close and no longer is or like aa past significant other or or
whatever. It is.
And the label people, the label people use now to describe those
people are toxic people, right? That's the, that's the label.
So people that you haven't established past with that is
very messy and filled with pain and, and things like that, that
(28:34):
these types of situations, you can't just be like, oh, well,
they're an unbeliever. So I'm just going to preach the
gospel to them every time I see them and I'm super kind and act
like nothing happened. It's like, well, that's so hard.
And that's actually like, you don't want to just act like
nothing happened. That's not the answer.
So there is a going back to the reconciliation piece.
(28:59):
You don't always have to reconcile with someone because
sometimes reconciliation isn't possible in this fallen world we
live in. Sure, sometimes, yeah.
So the answer is. Sometimes, sometimes
reconciliation looks different, you know, like if the person
poses a real danger and you knowyou can, you've you've maybe
talked it out and forgiven for the thing, but that doesn't mean
you don't have any safeguards still in.
Place there's potential degrees to what reconciliation can
(29:22):
happen and you're somewhere on that spectrum, Yeah, in some
way, right. So I guess the answer is yes,
it's OK to cut people out of your life.
But there's, I guess must be more precise, right?
The more precise thing is to sayis reconciliation is possible to
different degrees. Yeah.
And what I would add is, and this, so I'm going off of kind
(29:45):
of just conversations I have with people at church.
And just, I feel like in the last, I don't know how many
years we've moved in an interesting place where it has
become the norm that people cut out people from their lives
quickly. They label them as toxic and
they say, I'm no longer speakingto this person.
It can be somebody as close as amom or a dad or a, or a sister
or a brother or something like that.
I, I mean, I've, yeah, there's, there's some families that I
(30:07):
know that we're talking really close family relationships.
And all of a sudden they've said, and of course it's not all
of a sudden for them, but at least for those on the outside,
it's like, wow, you know, in thelast few months, all of a sudden
we went from you guys spend lotsof time together to all of a
sudden you saying, I'm never speaking with that person.
Again, if you've done this right, is it not a perfect
(30:27):
gauge? But like, if they're utterly
surprised by being cut out of your life, you've probably done
this wrong. Sure, yeah.
Well, and what I was going to say too is I just that whole
thing, the idea that I'm going to cut this person out is a
really extreme measure. I should be rare.
And this is what I like. The better question even is, are
(30:48):
there degrees to reconciliation or is it all or nothing?
It's like, well, it's not all ornothing.
There's different levels of reconciliation that can happen.
And, and like I like how you said, like there's still
boundaries that exist that are healthy to have.
So yes, boundaries are healthy to have.
There's a lot. Of cutting people out randomly
isn't very healthy, right? There's a lot of room between
(31:09):
all access, no guard rails, and I never speak with you again.
There's some. There's a.
Lot. There's a lot of ground in.
Between there that you have perfect discernment in the
situation that you have a lot ofbitterness in, right so.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I mean, I'm trying to,
I'm thinking of some specific situations in my mind.
(31:30):
I'm just thinking in some of them, it's like, it's like, yes,
you have a different relationship with this person
now. That means that you're not maybe
seeing them every single day or,you know, have the Super tight
relationship with them. But it doesn't have to mean
never. It could mean maybe we talk now
once a week or you know, maybe maybe it's less in person and
(31:50):
more on the phone. I you know, there's just there's
some different options that you can explore.
It doesn't have to be this all or nothing so.
Yeah, all that to say, there's different options.
There's wiggle room in the middle lightning room.
You're going to love this. This.
Is going to be a really fast, simple answer.
Can you be bitter towards God? I told you beforehand I did not
(32:12):
want this question. Not actually.
That's why I'm bitter. You asked.
It I made. Sure not.
I actually, I think it's a very important question to ask
sincerely and I genuinely think I'm going to change the question
again because that I like doing that.
You will be you. You will be tempted to have
(32:32):
bitterness towards God. That's just a fact of your
fallen nature, this fallen worldand all of the perspectives that
we don't have because we're not omnipotent and eternal like he
is and he doesn't promise us answers to all our questions.
I think he does give us the the answers to the most important
questions. I mean he and and read your
Bible, right. That's that's where we find the
(32:55):
answers to the most important questions.
But you will be tempted to be bitter towards God is it's just
a reality of life. And I think Job would the
biblical Job would give us a beautiful, poetic, but hard to
swallow truth that God is God and you are not.
(33:15):
And who are you to question him like that is a like a hard kind
of foundational truth to land on.
And yet, I mean, it's the it's. What God says.
It's yeah, it's. And so you're depending on God
at the end of the day. And so that is a better place to
be. It's just sometimes you.
Some people land on that harder than others because of the deep
(33:37):
feelings we have. Feel like God is God.
Who are we to question him? The Bible tells us beautiful
things about what it means that God is sovereign, that he is
working all things together for our good.
If that is true, who are we to question him and we he doesn't.
He doesn't owe us answers to ourquestions, and yet he still
(33:59):
gives us some answers to our questions, just not all of them.
And so who are we to then complain that he's not answering
the ones we would want instead? Or, and you can take that even
bigger of like, he doesn't even,he doesn't, he definitely
doesn't owe us the cross. And then he gives us that.
That's why we call it grace. And who are we?
Yeah, I think that's like, it's a hard foundation to land on.
And yet it's the foundation we're landing on is the
(34:20):
foundation of Christ. And so we're in a better place
for it. But right.
Right. So, yeah, I, you know, if you're
if you feel or are tempted to feel angry or bitter towards
God, maybe the first thing you should know is that you're in
good company. Even within the Bible, there's a
lot of people who felt that way.Read the Psalms.
One of my favorite Psalms is Psalm 77, the one that I turn to
(34:40):
when I'm. When I'm feeling this way, the
psalmist plays out sort of thosefeelings, but then considers the
faithfulness of God and actuallysort of I, I think Psalm 77 is a
picture of somebody who's feeling bitterness towards God,
then preaches the gospel to themselves and then sees
themselves come around. I think that's what the picture.
Is you need to own that. That's how you feel.
(35:02):
Like we said, like you need to actually admit it, get to the
root and like make it clear to yourself and to God in honesty
that you're bitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's So what I want to say.Yeah.
Is that realize that it's not unusual that you feel that way,
but also you got to realize thatyou can't stay there like for a
(35:23):
lot of years we were told you can be angry at God and that's
OK and and actually God likes. It that can that can be heard as
it's so good, Yeah, it's so goodto be mad at God isn't.
It, I always thought that advicewas so strange.
Even even as a, even as like a teenager, I remember just
thinking, I don't, I don't, I, Ifeel these things, but I don't
understand why somebody's tryingto tell me that that's OK,
(35:44):
actually. That real should be.
That's good. It's good.
Lean into that, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's, I don't
think that's really what the Bible tells us.
Like it's more like it tells us.I think the psalmist give us a
good example that that is a human experience, that people
feel that way or are tempted to feel that way, but then you have
to face it with the truth of thegospel.
What do you do with that? You, you, you were honest about
(36:06):
it and you go to the Lord with it.
And I think it's an RC sprawl quote.
I love it. It's hanging in my office on the
wall that Job, I mean, some I'm like, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to say the quote exactly right.
But it's something like this. Job asked God all these
questions and God answered them with himself.
(36:26):
He didn't necessarily answer Job's questions, but he did come
to Job and remind Job who he is,that he is God.
Yeah. And he's working.
He's he's sovereign. He's he's this Providence of God
that should give us comfort evenin our unanswered questions and
seeming seemingly unanswered reasons for, you know,
(36:47):
bitterness. God will answer every sin and he
will pay for all of your sins onthe cross.
Yeah, all your and picture of eternity is a fully redeemed
creation. So our worries will be answered.
They will be. Yeah, so one day we will get to
see Curt will be pulled back, the Lord will show us.
But until then, we do have to trust that he is good, that he's
(37:10):
faithful, even when things look like it's not that way.
Welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast where we
answer questions about the Christian faith in plain
language. If you or someone you know has
questions, please submit them toPeace Church dot CC slash
questions. Hey, welcome to.
That's a good question. Great to be with you.
(00:28):
My name is John. I can serve as your host, and
I'm here with Logan. Logan Bailey, family pastor at
Peace Church. And we're excited to have
episode 3 here of our series Sins we keep in the dark.
In the dark gets covered up and the light gets exposed.
That's the goal, talking about these sins that we keep in the
dark. So we've talked about lust in
(00:49):
episode 1. We've talked about Pride in
Episode 2 and now episode 3. The best of all three, Yeah.
Revenge of the Sith, Revenge of the bitterness.
Bitterness is what we're talkingabout today.
So our main verse. I'll read it for us, then we'll
get into discussion. Here we go.
Ephesians chapter 4. The Bible actually talks quite a
bit about bitterness, so we've got several verses we could look
(01:10):
at. I've got 3 in mind specifically
to talk about today, but here's the first one.
Ephesians chapter 4. There's 31 and 32.
Let all bitterness and wrath andanger and clamor and slander be
put away from you along with allmalice.
Be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another
as God in Christ forgave you. So I think that's a great, just
(01:31):
a great main verse to use to talk about this topic because it
addresses, you know, how bitterness is something we need
to put away. And then the tail end of the
verse talks about how that's rooted in the forgiveness that
we have through Christ. So I think that that sets us up
really well. So let's talk about what this
thing is. What in the world is this thing
called bitterness? I don't know, I'm just kidding.
(01:55):
Wrong answer. Are you better?
That I don't know. The answer?
I actually love, I really love the verse that you just read
because I think it's one of the most uncomfortable verses to
read, almost similar to the verses that say don't be
anxious. You know, that thing that you
feel like you are totally justified in being.
(02:16):
Don't be that. That's can be hard.
Yeah, yeah. This is almost like a hard verse
to read. It's beautiful in the vision.
It gives us a a life without bitterness would be awesome,
just like a life without anxietywould be awesome.
And yeah, we live in a fallen world.
So it's so hard for us to conceive of what it would look
like if we truly were all fully sanctified and like Christ, as
(02:38):
we should be, which we have thathope for eternity.
But we want to see some of that now as Christ, as the Holy
Spirit works in US. And this is one of those verses
that's like, oh man, that's that's a hard verse.
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like the way you said that
it's something that we feel likeentitled to have bitterness.
Yeah, Yeah. So it's it's so it's a feeling
(02:59):
we feel. And I think it's fair to say
that the the root of it is unforgiveness, right?
That that's another word to describe bitterness.
It's unforgiveness. Something somebody has wronged
us in some way or we've sufferedsome kind of injustice and we
instead of letting it go, we hold onto it.
And that is, that is really whatthat's that's the bitterness,
(03:19):
yeah. I like, I think this, I got this
from you, but grief is somethingthat actually can kind of lead
to like naturally can lead to resolving itself.
Like there's a process you can go through, but bitterness is
something that it just it festers.
And by the way, I've heard you say it like it calcifies into
something else. I love that word.
It like it, it actually can. There's a word I'm looking for,
(03:43):
Like ferment a bit into something different, something
gross and nasty that's hurting you more than you realize as you
hold onto it. Yeah.
So yeah, Matthew 18 parable Jesus tells about the unmerciful
servant. So you can find that starting in
Matthew 18 verse 21. But I'll just give you a quick
summary. This is that famous passage when
(04:04):
Peter is asking Jesus how many times you have to forgive
somebody. And Jesus says, you know, not 7
times, but 70 * 7. And then he gives a parable and
he talks about a servant who owed his master a whole bunch of
money. The master forgives him his debt
instead of making him pay. But then that servant goes out
and his buddy who owes him just a little bit of money, he chokes
(04:25):
him and says you have to pay what you owe.
And then the master finds out and then throws that servant
into jail because of how? Yeah, incongruent that is.
If you're a numbers guy and you dig into the the amount that was
forgiven and then the amount that he then went and didn't
forgive, it's almost like humorous how vastly different
(04:49):
those two numbers were. Like an unimaginable debt that
he was forgiven. Like the number there I think is
like 20 years of Labor or something.
It's like millions of dollars. Something.
Like 100 bucks. Yeah, yeah.
That really drives the point home almost in like a, you know,
like a humorous way. Yeah.
(05:09):
Like, isn't that ridiculous? And then kind of looking at you
like, and aren't you a little ridiculous?
Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, I, I felt convicted just reading it.
I mean, I mean, that's the thing.
So we all, there's something we all experience and feel.
I think at least at least I do on a regular basis.
I have moments during the day where I'm like, you know, that
thing happened to me and it could be something recent, could
be something a long time ago. Both of those things I think
(05:31):
pump into into my mind from timeto time.
And I think that was terrible that that person did that.
That was unfair. I suffered that.
I'm angry about it and I'm holding on to that.
And as I was reading Matthew 18 today, just thinking about this
episode, I was, I was convicted of my goodness.
Think about how much the Lord has forgiven me for my sin.
(05:51):
How can I not forgive this otherperson for what they've done
against me? It goes really well.
It's like a compliment to last episode on Pride, just like
viewing yourself rightly and having like that correct sober
minded view of the situation. You have been forgiven much,
Forgive much right now. Yeah, yeah.
(06:12):
So since the logic is so easy. Right.
I say that as if it's easy. You're right.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing
We're we're talking about the message from the Bible, I think
is actually very simple. It's not complicated.
We don't have to do, you don't have to do a ton of Greek and
Hebrew stuff to like figure out what is the the point around
bitterness. It's actually really clear.
(06:33):
God forgave you and so you should forgive others.
It's actually quite clear. It's also in the Lordsburg,
another place to find it. But why is it so hard then?
Why do we struggle so much? Right.
I think it's so real and raw, those emotions of bitterness it
(06:53):
you can't change how you feel about things Like I feel that
deeply. Yeah, it makes me think.
I remember John Piper discussing, he talked, he
preaches a ton about having joy in God, right?
He's talking about, you know, the Bible calls us to have joy,
but you don't get to just tell yourself to have joy.
And it's like trying to, you know, he said it's not like
trying to lift your pinky finger.
(07:14):
He said you can just, you know, in your brain you can say pinky
finger go up, pinky finger go down and it does.
But joy or happiness or those kind of feelings, you can't just
say self feel happy. Same thing with bitterness,
right? You can't just say self don't
feel that way. It's not.
You can try but it doesn't work so well.
(07:34):
Yeah, there's like a therapy model of there's your feelings,
your thoughts and your actions, and they sometimes aren't
congruent. And so when your feelings try to
dictate your actions and your thoughts, you have very little
control over your feelings. You have a little bit more
control over what you think and you actually have control over
(07:57):
more control over what you do. And so sometimes if you're, you
know your head and your heart aren't in line aligned in your,
your, your feelings are over here, your thoughts are over
here. Sometimes you kind of have to
choose, well, I'm going to do this even though I don't feel
like doing it. And that eventually will help
your feelings kind of catch up to where you're at.
Or that's that same model works with helping understand why it's
(08:23):
so important we tell ourselves truth and why it's so important
that we get at what it, what arethe lies that you're believing?
Because that thought piece also deeply influences what how we
feel and what we do at the end of the day.
And so it's actually very practical to remind yourself of
truths, even the simple ones, because we believe lies very
easily, right? So one of the things, So, yeah.
(08:45):
And so we've called that before,like preaching truth to
yourself. If I preach the gospel to
yourself, you know, take what God says in the Bible and you
know, read it, yes, but also take it and try to just, you
know, tell it to yourself self believe this, this Christ has
forgiven me. I I need to forgive others.
You need to preach that to yourself.
One of the objections I've heardfrom people to like what you
(09:05):
just said is well, that's inauthentic.
If I feel that way but I act a different way, aren't I living a
lie? I mean, you are more than just
your inclinations. You're more than just like
you're meant to live for more than just do what you're
(09:26):
oriented towards to do, because sometimes we're oriented towards
sin. We're meant to be men and women
that are like Christ and, and live virtuous lives and, and
holy lives. And so we're more than just what
you feel we have to be, right? That's like a very humanistic
way of viewing what we are. We're more than just like the
blood and neurons pumping in ourbodies, like we actually have
(09:50):
higher callings than just doing letting our feelings dictate
what we do. Right.
And you only always did what youfelt that would not be, that
might be quote UN quote authentic, but that might, that
would not be such a good thing. You're back and have a whole lot
of friends or a very, very healthy life if you if you live
that way. I mean, I think about my kids.
If I told my kids, you know what, you should just always act
(10:10):
out. Exactly what you feel, yeah.
That probably is not going to goso well, yeah.
Yeah. And, and I think to kind of go
back to John Piper, one of the things that he'll communicate is
actually it's it's going to windup you being more fulfilled at
the end of the road of you sometimes fighting against those
(10:32):
emotions and doing and thinking what you know to be true versus
just following your inclinationsall the time.
A true joy is actually sometimesfound in delaying that
gratification. Yeah, for the sake of deeper
gratification, deeper satisfaction.
And we know that like in Hebrews, it says that for the
joy, for the sake of the joy in front of him, he died in the
(10:53):
cross. Like Jesus, the cross has
delayed gratification of like I'm I'm willing to go through
suffering and sometimes the deepest suffering we can go
through is denying ourselves. That's what we mean when we say
that. Deny that deep feeling you have
in this moment for something greater later, yeah.
All right, so if we said that, you know, there's the feeling,
(11:15):
OK, and we've said on the one hand, we need to fight against
the feeling. On the other hand, we shouldn't
just live it out. How do we but but it's still
there. Does that mean we just.
And acknowledging that bitterness is some of the
deepest feelings we can feel, OK?
Like that goes deep in our hearts when we feel it.
Yeah. Yeah, so the solution isn't to
just say pretend it doesn't exist.
(11:36):
Absolutely not. Oh, that would just lead to more
bitterness at the end, right? You can't fool yourself that
good. You.
We're really good at fooling ourselves.
But like, that'll come back, right?
Yeah, right. So let's talk about a process
for how to, how to kind of face it, how to deal with.
It so that's a unique everythingwe brought up is on the table
and it's like what do we do withall this yeah yeah I.
Think that's what we've been doing, putting stuff on the
table. It exists.
You can't deny it, but you also can't just live it out.
(11:59):
What do? You do with this deeply
affecting you, and you can't, Yeah, you can't ignore it, Yeah.
And in, in most cases, maybe notin all cases, but in most cases,
it's, it's because something actually has happened.
It's not just in your head, right?
Like it's usually comes from something somebody did or said,
something that led to, and sometimes it's super terrible
(12:20):
and that's led to this bitterness.
So there's like there's other people involved, there's actual
events that happened, all this kind of stuff.
So let's think about like a process for how one could begin
to address in a healthy biblicalway their feeling of bitterness.
I think step number one is to identify and name it right?
(12:40):
To say, all right, I recognize here now that I have bitterness
inside of me that I'm holding onto this thing.
You know, for me, that's usually, I usually don't realize
it right away. It's usually after some time has
passed, I realize, hey, for a few weeks now, I keep thinking
about this thing that I'm reallyangry about.
Oh, you know what? I think I actually am bitter.
(13:02):
I I have bitterness. I'm holding on to something.
I'm not letting it go. I'm not forgiving somebody.
All right, we should, we should figure this out.
So so naming it identifying. I'm angry, yeah.
And here's why. Then I think we go into.
So then the Bible, I think is going to give us.
One just to say too, and here's why, because there's a reason,
(13:23):
there's actually something logical about why that
bitterness is there. And so don't just acknowledge
that you are bitter, but understand why, like get to the
root of it because then you won't be able to actually
address it. It's like when you're wedding a
garden, you actually have to pull the roots out.
So you need to understand what the root is.
Why are you angry? Why are you hurt?
What happened? Like it's the reasonable where
(13:43):
did. It come from Yep, Yep,
definitely. So then I think we branch into
kind of two different directionsthat the Bible would tell us and
how to deal with it. One Direction is sort of in your
own heart and with the Lord, andthe other direction is with that
other person and they're relatedand yet not the same.
So yeah, we got to kind of thinkabout both of those things.
So Matthew 18, actually the samechapter where that parable of
(14:06):
the unmerciful servant is, is also a chapter where Jesus gives
us guidelines, steps for dealingwith this kind of situation with
another person. Jesus says that if your brother
has sinned against you, what areyou supposed to do?
You're supposed to go to them and address it.
And often your bitterness comes from sin, right?
Other people's sins. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So in dealing with the other person, the answer is to go to
(14:30):
them and talk about it. You know, if you've if you've
done something terrible to me, I'm supposed to go to you and
say, Logan, when you did this, Ithought, you know, it's funny
when I'm saying this out loud, it sounds like I feel like I'm
talking to my kids because this is exactly this is this is how I
was taught as a kid. But it's funny how we as adults,
whether we were taught as kids or not, we don't seem to do it
so well, even as grown-ups. Yeah.
(14:51):
But this is the thing. You, you go to your, your, your
brother or your sister and you say, Hey, you did this to me.
That made me feel this way. You know, let's, let's talk
about it. And then that goes into kind of
different levels, right? They could respond really well
and be like, I'm so sorry. And then you've got
reconciliation happens, can't happen.
Or it can go the other way and they can say you shouldn't feel
(15:13):
that way or I didn't do that, or, you know, and then that
leads into its own adventure. Classic line is forgiveness
takes one person, reconciliationtakes 2 right.
And so like you need to be prepared for not having the
expectation of the only way I can get over this bitterness is
if they apologize. Well, forgiveness actually
(15:35):
doesn't depend on them repenting.
So it's a tricky piece, but the reason that that's true is
because of the, you said there'sa part here that's about God and
a part here that's about other people.
It's like because of the God part there, that's why
forgiveness only takes one, because there's one that went to
the cross. And yet as far as reconciliation
with other people, the hope it should be unity and
(15:57):
reconciliation and that it's a mutual desired and and yet we
would don't always get that, which makes forgiveness that
much harder, right? And and that's exactly why I
kind of separated out the two paths.
There's yeah, there's, there's dealing with other, other
people. And sometimes it goes well,
sometimes it doesn't. We don't have full control over
that. We only contribute, you know,
one part of that. Then the other side is just your
(16:19):
own heart and the Lord. And it's interesting.
So you've read Chris Brown's book Unpacking Forgiveness.
I've heard of it. He it's a very interesting book.
He makes the argument that you can't forgive somebody unless
they repent and ask for your forgiveness.
That's the argument he makes in the book, really.
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I can't say that I'm
really there. I think he makes some really
(16:41):
important points about how repentance works.
I, I, but I think the way you said it is, is the more
traditional way to say it. I think that I think that's much
that's more what I, that's what I would say is that there's
forgiveness and there's reconciliation.
Right. Well, and to that point, the the
reason that I do think it only takes one person to forgive,
(17:02):
that it's not dependent on theirrepentance, is because God is a
God of justice and he will repayevil.
And so you can forgive knowing that the evil that's been done
will be paid for. And they may be the one paying
for it or Jesus will pay it for them.
But God is a God of justice and we'll make sure that that gets
(17:23):
paid for, right. So then then you, it doesn't
matter if they apologize to you or not.
Like that's why, yeah. Sure.
He, I mean, he grounds his argument and saying, well, does
God forgive us if we don't ask for forgiveness?
And the answer is no, right. I mean, like we only receive
God's forgiveness when we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord
and Savior and say, Lord, I trust Jesus to take away all my
(17:43):
sins, which is us, you know, confessing repentance.
So he's saying, you know, between US and God, we only get
forgiveness when we come with repentance.
And so he's saying, shouldn't itbe the same way between humans?
Yeah, I think he's meshing. Yeah, yeah.
Reconciliation a little bit withwhat?
Yeah. Yeah, I.
Don't, I don't think Scripture gives us that like clearly says
it like that. So I think I think, yeah, when
(18:04):
we look at Scripture and think about how that works out
practically, I think what you laid out makes the most sense,
that forgiveness is between US and the Lord in our own hearts.
Reconciliation is between two people.
So reconciliation isn't entirelydependent upon us.
We can't always get there, but then forgiveness, our own hearts
and before the Lord, is something that we, you know, we
can work on separately ourselves.
(18:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like an interesting
piece here, this is less speaking to the person that is
struggling with bitterness and listening to us and more just
like as we're thinking intellectually and theoretically
about bitterness and pathways offorgiveness and things thinking
(18:46):
theoretically on that. It's, it's important for us to
keep in mind that to to be humble in that we've also sinned
like there is none of our hands are clean.
My one of my favorite examples of this in the Bible is I forget
his name, but he's one of the guys that's carrying helping
carry the ark of the covenant and the ark of the covenant
starts to fall. This, this peace.
(19:07):
You know, it was a holy thing that he then this man tries to
catch it. And RC Sparrow once said the
mistake he made is he sought hishands were cleaner than the
ground. And so none of our hands are
clean in this fallen world in which we're trying to forgive
(19:29):
and not hold on to bitterness again, it's just a good reminder
of like what the Bible is leading us towards is an
eternity where all things are made new.
And so the ideal that we should have, that we're being LED
towards, sanctified, towards theHoly Spirit is guiding us
towards transforming us into, isa place of a fully redeemed
(19:49):
creation of no sin, where we arewho we are meant to be, fully
sanctified like Jesus, in which it's not as tricky, but in this
fallen world, it's a beautiful process and yet very messy.
Yeah, so continuing down the road of So I, I don't think
we're going to go super far in the this episode about, you
know, working. We're not going to solve
everything. We're not going to solve.
(20:10):
We're not going to solve all of it, but going back to at least
within our own hearts, because Ithink that's bitterness.
I think when when the scripture talks about bitterness, I think
it's specifically talking about an an issue within your own
heart. So there's the reconciliation
side over there with one person,with another person, the
forgiveness bitterness part withour own hearts.
OK, so we've acknowledged it, we've identified it, we've tried
(20:32):
to work on it with the other person.
It either it's going well or notwell.
I mean, the next step is to comeback to the gospel, right?
Is to say I have been forgiven much and to preach that truth to
myself. I've received Jesus as my Lord
and Savior. He has forgiven and wiped out my
sin entirely. That's amazing.
An entire life of sin, past, present, future.
(20:55):
And so now I have to give forgiveness for this terrible
thing that's happened to me, whatever that might be, right?
Yeah. So thinking practically for
those listening that are struggling deeply with
bitterness, I just, it's, I justwant to acknowledge how
difficult it is to go about thisprocess.
(21:17):
But it is very true that Christ has died for sins and he has
died for your sins. And let that be the focus of let
that be where you spend your energy.
And that will, that's the best advice I can, I can.
Yeah. Because it's so there's so many
unique situations that could cause bitterness and they're
(21:37):
very real. Like there's a reason you're
better. It's reasonable, it makes sense.
It's logical to then be bitter and angry about something.
And yeah, I think of Philippians4 where I'm I'm comparing
bitterness to anxiety again, just two things that God tells
us to not be And it's like, well, how can I not be that I
(21:58):
feel it so deeply it and it makes sense.
It's reasonable that I feel thisway.
It's reasonable I'm anxious or reasonable that I feel better.
There is a reasonable list to it.
And yet when Paul talks about not being anxious like the Lord
tells us to, because the the onethat tells us to not be better,
not be anxious is Jesus. But Paul then says Philippians 4
(22:20):
verse 5. This is right before he says do
not be anxious about anything and the peace of God will you
know, pray God go to God the Pentagon and the peace of God
will guard your heart and mind. But right before that in verse
5, he says let your reasonableness be known to
everyone. The Lord is at hand, living in
light of the fact. The Lord is the one telling us
(22:40):
this. Let your reasonableness be known
to thus around you. It's like, yes, it makes sense,
it's logical that you feel bitter or anxious, and yet the
most reasonable thing to do is to not be anxious and depend on
God. The most reasonable thing to do
is not be bitter, but give it tothe Lord, not be bitter, but let
(23:01):
him take it to the cross becausethere's this tangible sin that's
now in the world and it has deeply cut you and others.
The Lord will take care of that sin.
You don't need to have the burden of of carrying that.
And so that's why people describe forgiveness as letting
yourself out of the jail cell. It's like you're the one that's
trapped by this bitterness. And allowing you like your
(23:24):
unforgiveness is just keeping you in that jail cell.
And what forgiveness does is it releases you from that jail cell
of, of bitterness, the tangible sin God will deal with.
Yeah. And the intricacies of all of
what that could mean in people'slives of listening is a mess.
We couldn't even capture all of it.
It's real. Well, and like you said earlier,
(23:45):
in an eternal sense it will be dealt with.
Either will be. Suffering for it in hell or
Jesus already paid for it on the.
Cross, like he did you, Yeah. For you, right.
And so the forgiveness piece in your own heart is possible
because of what cross, the crossmeans.
And that's reasonable to do, to like, let it.
Yeah. It's like, let go of it.
(24:05):
But also it's like, have it let go of you because it's holding
you down. Yeah.
Totally. Well the the last verse I wanted
to make sure and and hit was on that point.
Romans 12/19 says beloved, neveravenge yourselves, but leave it
to the wrath of God for it is written vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. That's like that's AI mean
(24:26):
that's pretty, that's pretty strong.
Leave it to the wrath of God. Vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. You know, that's not like, oh,
forget about it. That's not, you know, decide
that it's no big deal. That's like God is going to have
real justice for this thing. Justice will be done.
If it's possible to believe it, which it is, but it's hard to
(24:50):
do, God is angrier about this than you are.
Yeah, totally. So a handful of quick questions
here. I kind of want to call this the
Lightning Round, but I don't know why.
Is it a? Real.
Lightning round because I don't know if you don't answer these
fast. Enough.
I don't know if our last lighting rounds for that
lightning. Yeah, that's fair.
(25:10):
OK, lightning round. Ding, Ding, Ding.
Here we go. Bring it on.
All right, Pastor Logan, how do I know if I've really forgiven
someone? Gosh darn it, this is hard
lightning around. Damn it, ma'am.
Yeah, yeah, I'd say that becausewe live in a fallen world there
(25:35):
Will. I was going to say, oh, because
you aren't bitter at them anymore.
The question was, how do I know if you've forgiven someone?
But like, yeah, that sinful nature of yours is going to try
to convince you that, oh, you should still be upset with them.
And so it's hard to let your feelings dictate be be the
determining factor if you've truly have moved on or not or if
(25:56):
you truly have forgiven them or not.
So it's hard to answer that question, but I will say kind of
as the the answer and for the whole podcast is or one of the
answers is, Hey, here's what we should do.
It's not something you do in a moment.
It's something that you live out.
It's something that you decide to do for the rest of your life
(26:18):
is depend on on Jesus and focus on the cross and let that be
your answer. But that be the answer to the
questions that come up in your heart.
Is the cross something you do throughout your life, not
something that you just bam, allright, yeah, forgiven.
Moving on. It's like, that's not how it
works. It's a decision you make every
day, almost. Yeah, I like that.
I was because I was thinking about that, you know, initially
I think like a traditional answer to this has been, well,
(26:40):
when you look at the person, do you feel the thing?
Does that come up? But yeah, like you said, I think
for for at least some of these things, you're always going to
have the temptation for bitterness come up when you see
that person. So it's it's the question.
It's each and every time you seethem.
Do you choose to give into your sinful nature or do you choose
to believe the gospel and fight against sin?
(27:02):
Yeah, it's a good answer. Nice work.
All right, next question. Is it OK?
And actually, this is ironic. I feel like when we've done, we
got this question a lot from teens when we've done panels for
our panels. Group.
Yeah, yeah, we do that every year.
Yeah, yeah. Here's here's the question.
Is it OK to cut someone out of my life after forgiving them?
Yeah, there's AI think it's in Titus, but there's there's
(27:27):
verses that say like have nothing now to do with this
person. Yeah.
Or or at least, you know, treat them like an unbeliever and that
does it mean five. Yeah, those things that doesn't
necessarily mean like I need to write a cease and desist letter.
I need to like get a restrainingorder or something and put it in
and like I, I can no longer eversee this person.
(27:47):
It doesn't mean that as much as it means like, recognize that,
OK, they need Jesus. Yeah.
Recognize that they are. And how do you treat somebody
who needs Jesus? That doesn't mean you like,
treat them terrible. You treat them as somebody you
want to see meet Jesus you want to reach out to.
But as far as like people that you have in this like a past
relationship with that, whether that's like a, a father that has
(28:12):
sent the answer to you or a, a friend that used to be really
close and no longer is or like aa past significant other or or
whatever. It is.
And the label people, the label people use now to describe those
people are toxic people, right? That's the, that's the label.
So people that you haven't established past with that is
very messy and filled with pain and, and things like that, that
(28:34):
these types of situations, you can't just be like, oh, well,
they're an unbeliever. So I'm just going to preach the
gospel to them every time I see them and I'm super kind and act
like nothing happened. It's like, well, that's so hard.
And that's actually like, you don't want to just act like
nothing happened. That's not the answer.
So there is a going back to the reconciliation piece.
(28:59):
You don't always have to reconcile with someone because
sometimes reconciliation isn't possible in this fallen world we
live in. Sure, sometimes, yeah.
So the answer is. Sometimes, sometimes
reconciliation looks different, you know, like if the person
poses a real danger and you knowyou can, you've you've maybe
talked it out and forgiven for the thing, but that doesn't mean
you don't have any safeguards still in.
Place there's potential degrees to what reconciliation can
(29:22):
happen and you're somewhere on that spectrum, Yeah, in some
way, right. So I guess the answer is yes,
it's OK to cut people out of your life.
But there's, I guess must be more precise, right?
The more precise thing is to sayis reconciliation is possible to
different degrees. Yeah.
And what I would add is, and this, so I'm going off of kind
(29:45):
of just conversations I have with people at church.
And just, I feel like in the last, I don't know how many
years we've moved in an interesting place where it has
become the norm that people cut out people from their lives
quickly. They label them as toxic and
they say, I'm no longer speakingto this person.
It can be somebody as close as amom or a dad or a, or a sister
or a brother or something like that.
I, I mean, I've, yeah, there's, there's some families that I
(30:07):
know that we're talking really close family relationships.
And all of a sudden they've said, and of course it's not all
of a sudden for them, but at least for those on the outside,
it's like, wow, you know, in thelast few months, all of a sudden
we went from you guys spend lotsof time together to all of a
sudden you saying, I'm never speaking with that person.
Again, if you've done this right, is it not a perfect
(30:27):
gauge? But like, if they're utterly
surprised by being cut out of your life, you've probably done
this wrong. Sure, yeah.
Well, and what I was going to say too is I just that whole
thing, the idea that I'm going to cut this person out is a
really extreme measure. I should be rare.
And this is what I like. The better question even is, are
(30:48):
there degrees to reconciliation or is it all or nothing?
It's like, well, it's not all ornothing.
There's different levels of reconciliation that can happen.
And, and like I like how you said, like there's still
boundaries that exist that are healthy to have.
So yes, boundaries are healthy to have.
There's a lot. Of cutting people out randomly
isn't very healthy, right? There's a lot of room between
(31:09):
all access, no guard rails, and I never speak with you again.
There's some. There's a.
Lot. There's a lot of ground in.
Between there that you have perfect discernment in the
situation that you have a lot ofbitterness in, right so.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I mean, I'm trying to,
I'm thinking of some specific situations in my mind.
(31:30):
I'm just thinking in some of them, it's like, it's like, yes,
you have a different relationship with this person
now. That means that you're not maybe
seeing them every single day or,you know, have the Super tight
relationship with them. But it doesn't have to mean
never. It could mean maybe we talk now
once a week or you know, maybe maybe it's less in person and
(31:50):
more on the phone. I you know, there's just there's
some different options that you can explore.
It doesn't have to be this all or nothing so.
Yeah, all that to say, there's different options.
There's wiggle room in the middle lightning room.
You're going to love this. This.
Is going to be a really fast, simple answer.
Can you be bitter towards God? I told you beforehand I did not
(32:12):
want this question. Not actually.
That's why I'm bitter. You asked.
It I made. Sure not.
I actually, I think it's a very important question to ask
sincerely and I genuinely think I'm going to change the question
again because that I like doing that.
You will be you. You will be tempted to have
(32:32):
bitterness towards God. That's just a fact of your
fallen nature, this fallen worldand all of the perspectives that
we don't have because we're not omnipotent and eternal like he
is and he doesn't promise us answers to all our questions.
I think he does give us the the answers to the most important
questions. I mean he and and read your
Bible, right. That's that's where we find the
(32:55):
answers to the most important questions.
But you will be tempted to be bitter towards God is it's just
a reality of life. And I think Job would the
biblical Job would give us a beautiful, poetic, but hard to
swallow truth that God is God and you are not.
(33:15):
And who are you to question him like that is a like a hard kind
of foundational truth to land on.
And yet, I mean, it's the it's. What God says.
It's yeah, it's. And so you're depending on God
at the end of the day. And so that is a better place to
be. It's just sometimes you.
Some people land on that harder than others because of the deep
(33:37):
feelings we have. Feel like God is God.
Who are we to question him? The Bible tells us beautiful
things about what it means that God is sovereign, that he is
working all things together for our good.
If that is true, who are we to question him and we he doesn't.
He doesn't owe us answers to ourquestions, and yet he still
(33:59):
gives us some answers to our questions, just not all of them.
And so who are we to then complain that he's not answering
the ones we would want instead? Or, and you can take that even
bigger of like, he doesn't even,he doesn't, he definitely
doesn't owe us the cross. And then he gives us that.
That's why we call it grace. And who are we?
Yeah, I think that's like, it's a hard foundation to land on.
And yet it's the foundation we're landing on is the
(34:20):
foundation of Christ. And so we're in a better place
for it. But right.
Right. So, yeah, I, you know, if you're
if you feel or are tempted to feel angry or bitter towards
God, maybe the first thing you should know is that you're in
good company. Even within the Bible, there's a
lot of people who felt that way.Read the Psalms.
One of my favorite Psalms is Psalm 77, the one that I turn to
(34:40):
when I'm. When I'm feeling this way, the
psalmist plays out sort of thosefeelings, but then considers the
faithfulness of God and actuallysort of I, I think Psalm 77 is a
picture of somebody who's feeling bitterness towards God,
then preaches the gospel to themselves and then sees
themselves come around. I think that's what the picture.
Is you need to own that. That's how you feel.
(35:02):
Like we said, like you need to actually admit it, get to the
root and like make it clear to yourself and to God in honesty
that you're bitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's So what I want to say.Yeah.
Is that realize that it's not unusual that you feel that way,
but also you got to realize thatyou can't stay there like for a
(35:23):
lot of years we were told you can be angry at God and that's
OK and and actually God likes. It that can that can be heard as
it's so good, Yeah, it's so goodto be mad at God isn't.
It, I always thought that advicewas so strange.
Even even as a, even as like a teenager, I remember just
thinking, I don't, I don't, I, Ifeel these things, but I don't
understand why somebody's tryingto tell me that that's OK,
(35:44):
actually. That real should be.
That's good. It's good.
Lean into that, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's, I don't
think that's really what the Bible tells us.
Like it's more like it tells us.I think the psalmist give us a
good example that that is a human experience, that people
feel that way or are tempted to feel that way, but then you have
to face it with the truth of thegospel.
What do you do with that? You, you, you were honest about
(36:06):
it and you go to the Lord with it.
And I think it's an RC sprawl quote.
I love it. It's hanging in my office on the
wall that Job, I mean, some I'm like, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to say the quote exactly right.
But it's something like this. Job asked God all these
questions and God answered them with himself.
(36:26):
He didn't necessarily answer Job's questions, but he did come
to Job and remind Job who he is,that he is God.
Yeah. And he's working.
He's he's sovereign. He's he's this Providence of God
that should give us comfort evenin our unanswered questions and
seeming seemingly unanswered reasons for, you know,
(36:47):
bitterness. God will answer every sin and he
will pay for all of your sins onthe cross.
Yeah, all your and picture of eternity is a fully redeemed
creation. So our worries will be answered.
They will be. Yeah, so one day we will get to
see Curt will be pulled back, the Lord will show us.
But until then, we do have to trust that he is good, that he's
(37:10):
faithful, even when things look like it's not that way.
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