July 30, 2025 • 12 mins
Is project management really about choosing between Agile or Waterfall—or is there something deeper we’re missing?
In this thought-provoking episode of the 4PM Podcast, host Mounir Ajam challenges the traditional narratives around Agile, Waterfall, and Hybrid project approaches. Drawing from years of industry experience and research at Uruk Project Management, Mounir introduces a new way of thinking: one that centers on value, context, and adaptability—not labels.
You’ll discover:
- Why Agile and Waterfall are product development approaches—not project management methods
- The two core principles that guide effective project delivery
- The Value Delivery Methodology (VDM) and its six essential components
- How every project—regardless of method—must move through a full life cycle
- The common myths that hinder real progress in project environments
- What truly makes a project manager successful in today's complex landscape
Whether you manage billion-dollar infrastructure or lean digital projects, this episode offers clarity on how to build fit-for-purpose systems that deliver lasting value.
🔗 Visit urukpm.com for the companion article and graphics.
Explore more project management insights at www.urukpm.com
Connect with Uruk Project Management:
Uruk PM | Blog
Uruk Project Management | LinkedIn
Uruk PM | Twitter
Uruk PM | Facebook
Uruk PM | Instagram
Uruk PM | Youtube
#UrukPM #ProjectManagement #Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the 4PM podcast, where ideas take shape
and strategies find purpose.
I am Mounir Ajam, founder andCEO of Uruk Project Management,
and I have a deep-seated passionfor project management and
community development, growingon decades of global experience
(00:24):
across diverse industries androles.
I am here to guide you throughthe transformative power of the
4PMs project program, productand portfolio management and our
focus on business integratedproject management.
Let's explore how integrationunlocks unparalleled value for
you and your organization.
Good day, my friends.
(00:49):
Welcome back to the 4pm podcast.
I'm your host, munir Ajam, andI'm grateful that you're joining
me for this new episode.
Today's topic may soundfamiliar at first agile,
waterfall, hybrid but I promiseyou we're not here to repeat the
usual debate.
Instead, I want to explore adeeper question Are there
(01:11):
fundamental differences in howwe manage projects labeled as
Agile or Waterfall, or are wesimply labeling methods without
understanding what lies beneath?
At Uruk, we've spent yearsinvestigating this, looking at
projects across industries anddisciplines, and today I'll
(01:32):
share a perspective that goesbeyond trends and buzzwords.
Before we begin, we must statethat we see agile, waterfall and
hybrid as product developmentapproaches, not project
management methods.
Part one beyond labels, why thedebate even matters.
(01:58):
Let me start with this.
Projects are businessinvestments.
They are initiated to respondto a need, an opportunity or a
threat, and they exist todeliver value.
Yet in our field, we often getstuck in the wrong debate.
People ask should we go agile?
(02:19):
Is waterfall dead?
Is hybrid the future, however?
Waterfall dead, is hybrid, thefuture.
However, the real question isnot whether Agile is better than
Waterfall or if hybrid is moremodern.
The real question is is yourproject management approach
designed to maximize valueacross the full project
(02:39):
lifecycle?
At Uruk, we say stop focusingon the label, start focusing on
the principles.
We follow two core principleswhich are simple yet powerful.
Number one project must coverthe entire project lifecycle,
from ideation to initialoperations.
Number two management methodsmust be tailored to fit the
(03:05):
specific context of your project.
This is the essence of the ROOCframework.
It's not about sticking to amethodology just because it's
popular.
It's about adapting withpurpose.
We're not here to be agile forthe sake of being agile, nor are
we defending sequential methods.
We are here to design fit forpurpose, value-driven project
(03:29):
systems.
Part two the real foundation ofproject management let's go
deeper.
When we look at a project, weshouldn't view it as a technical
exercise or a vendor activity.
It's a business response, astructured investment that has a
(03:53):
beginning, a middle and an end.
So how should we manage it?
We need a full projectlifecycle, one that starts with
ideation and ends withpost-implementation success
assessment.
That's why, at Uruk, we use thevalue delivery methodology, or
VDM for short.
It integrates projectmanagement with business
(04:15):
governance, product delivery andeven early operations.
And here's the important partSome elements of the project
method are fixed.
For example, every project musthave a life cycle, it must start
with an idea and it must endwith a final assessment, but
much else can and should betailored.
(04:37):
How many phases you need?
What you call them?
What happens in each one?
All of that depends on the size, complexity and nature of your
project.
In VDM, we work with sixcomponents that make up any
project management method.
These are a full lifecycle,distinct phases or stages, a
(04:58):
process to manage each stage,outputs or deliverables from
each stage, decision points orstage gates.
And support for essentialmanagement domain like time,
scope, cost, risk, change,quality.
But again, tailoring is key.
There is no one size fits allOne size fits all.
(05:20):
We don't manage a $5 billioninfrastructure project the same
way we manage a simple websiterollout.
This is why methodology must beadaptive, truly adaptive.
Part 3.
What all projects have incommon and what they don't.
(05:44):
Let's walk through the projectlife cycle and discuss what
stays the same and what changes.
Before we explain, it would behelpful to check our website,
urukpmcom.
Look for the papers page underthe knowledge tab.
You will find the originalarticle relevant to this episode
(06:04):
, which includes the relevantgraphics.
We begin with the discoveryphase.
Every project yes, every singleone needs discovery.
This is where we define thebusiness case, study feasibility
, get sponsor buy-in and set thefoundation for success.
Some guides call thispre-project, but I disagree.
(06:26):
This is part of the project.
It's where the valueproposition begins.
It is where we define value.
We hear a lot about value whichmust be defined here, yet we
consider this phase as outsidethe project.
Does that make any sense?
I will rephrase how can weensure value if we consider the
(06:49):
phase where we must define it tobe outside the project
lifecycle?
A reminder this is trueregardless of the product
development approach.
Then we move into therequirement stage.
Here we explore thestakeholders expectations and
define requirements.
We have not designed yet, justthe what and the why.
(07:11):
This apply whether we'rebuilding a hospital, a highway
or a mobile app.
After that comes the definitionstage.
Now things begin to diverge.
In sequential projects, wedefine as much as possible,
including the preliminary design, budget schedule, quality
guides, assessment of risks andprocurement strategy.
(07:35):
As some practitionersmisunderstand, this is not set
in stone.
We leave room for potentialvalue-added changes.
In iterative projects likesoftware, we might build a
high-level backlog and leaveroom for adjustments and changes
.
Both are valid.
Both depend on the context.
(08:03):
Then comes the delivery phase,or implementation.
Again, the difference isn'tabout waterfall or agile.
It's about how we deliver.
Sequential development we mightsee construction, installation
testing and handover.
Iterative development we mightsee sprints, demos and
continuous releases.
So the difference is not in howwe manage the project.
(08:25):
The difference is in theapproach we use to build the
products, and the best approachmust align with the product
context.
Finally, don't skip theoperational readiness and
project closure.
Yes, even in agile environments, we need to prepare for
operation, go to market, etc.
We also need formal closure.
(08:45):
We need to capture lessonslearned, assess success and
archive project records.
That's how we ensure continuousimprovement.
So, to summarize, all projectsneed these phases.
What changes is how we do them?
(09:07):
Part four myths, misconceptionsand the path forward.
Now let's tackle some mythsbecause unfortunately, some
well-meaning agilists or eventraditionalists spread ideas
that simply aren't true.
Myth one traditional planningis rigid.
Not true.
Competent project managers planprogressively.
(09:28):
We use rolling wave planning.
Plans evolve.
Myth two traditional projectsdon't communicate Wrong again,
communication happens daily inmeetings and reports, even
informally.
Myth three traditional projectsdon't allow change.
Number change is allowed, butit's assessed for cost and
(09:51):
impact and sometimes it's notworth the disruption.
Myth four Agile doesn't need aproject lifecycle.
Well then, what was thediscovery phase, the business
case, the backlog?
Agile doesn't erase the PLC, itjust looks at differently.
Myth five requirements stage isunnecessary in Agile.
(10:15):
If you don't know what problemyou're solving, why are you
building anything?
We must stop drawing battlelines between agile and
waterfall.
These are not competingreligions.
We must focus on value, contextand competence.
A successful project manager isnot the one who goes agile,
(10:36):
it's the one who understands theenvironment, tailors the method
and delivers value consistently.
All right, my friends, let'swrap this up.
We explored today what itreally means to manage projects
beyond Agile and Waterfall.
(10:58):
Projects are not about fittinginto trendy methods.
They are about deliveringresults, serving a purpose and
(11:21):
transforming vision into value,and that required wisdom,
flexibility and maturity.
If today's episode helped yousee things differently, I invite
you to share it, subscribe,leave a review and, most
importantly, have a conversationwith your team.
You and, most importantly, havea conversation with your team.
(11:45):
Ask are we focusing on methodsor on value?
For more information about ourwork, visit urukpmcom or contact
me directly on LinkedIn.
Until next time, this is MunirAjam, reminding you to lead with
clarity, act with purpose andalways manage with intent.
Welcome to the 4PM podcast, where ideas take shape
and strategies find purpose.
I am Mounir Ajam, founder andCEO of Uruk Project Management,
and I have a deep-seated passionfor project management and
community development, growingon decades of global experience
(00:24):
across diverse industries androles.
I am here to guide you throughthe transformative power of the
4PMs project program, productand portfolio management and our
focus on business integratedproject management.
Let's explore how integrationunlocks unparalleled value for
you and your organization.
Good day, my friends.
(00:49):
Welcome back to the 4pm podcast.
I'm your host, munir Ajam, andI'm grateful that you're joining
me for this new episode.
Today's topic may soundfamiliar at first agile,
waterfall, hybrid but I promiseyou we're not here to repeat the
usual debate.
Instead, I want to explore adeeper question Are there
(01:11):
fundamental differences in howwe manage projects labeled as
Agile or Waterfall, or are wesimply labeling methods without
understanding what lies beneath?
At Uruk, we've spent yearsinvestigating this, looking at
projects across industries anddisciplines, and today I'll
(01:32):
share a perspective that goesbeyond trends and buzzwords.
Before we begin, we must statethat we see agile, waterfall and
hybrid as product developmentapproaches, not project
management methods.
Part one beyond labels, why thedebate even matters.
(01:58):
Let me start with this.
Projects are businessinvestments.
They are initiated to respondto a need, an opportunity or a
threat, and they exist todeliver value.
Yet in our field, we often getstuck in the wrong debate.
People ask should we go agile?
(02:19):
Is waterfall dead?
Is hybrid the future, however?
Waterfall dead, is hybrid, thefuture.
However, the real question isnot whether Agile is better than
Waterfall or if hybrid is moremodern.
The real question is is yourproject management approach
designed to maximize valueacross the full project
(02:39):
lifecycle?
At Uruk, we say stop focusingon the label, start focusing on
the principles.
We follow two core principleswhich are simple yet powerful.
Number one project must coverthe entire project lifecycle,
from ideation to initialoperations.
Number two management methodsmust be tailored to fit the
(03:05):
specific context of your project.
This is the essence of the ROOCframework.
It's not about sticking to amethodology just because it's
popular.
It's about adapting withpurpose.
We're not here to be agile forthe sake of being agile, nor are
we defending sequential methods.
We are here to design fit forpurpose, value-driven project
(03:29):
systems.
Part two the real foundation ofproject management let's go
deeper.
When we look at a project, weshouldn't view it as a technical
exercise or a vendor activity.
It's a business response, astructured investment that has a
(03:53):
beginning, a middle and an end.
So how should we manage it?
We need a full projectlifecycle, one that starts with
ideation and ends withpost-implementation success
assessment.
That's why, at Uruk, we use thevalue delivery methodology, or
VDM for short.
It integrates projectmanagement with business
(04:15):
governance, product delivery andeven early operations.
And here's the important partSome elements of the project
method are fixed.
For example, every project musthave a life cycle, it must start
with an idea and it must endwith a final assessment, but
much else can and should betailored.
(04:37):
How many phases you need?
What you call them?
What happens in each one?
All of that depends on the size, complexity and nature of your
project.
In VDM, we work with sixcomponents that make up any
project management method.
These are a full lifecycle,distinct phases or stages, a
(04:58):
process to manage each stage,outputs or deliverables from
each stage, decision points orstage gates.
And support for essentialmanagement domain like time,
scope, cost, risk, change,quality.
But again, tailoring is key.
There is no one size fits allOne size fits all.
(05:20):
We don't manage a $5 billioninfrastructure project the same
way we manage a simple websiterollout.
This is why methodology must beadaptive, truly adaptive.
Part 3.
What all projects have incommon and what they don't.
(05:44):
Let's walk through the projectlife cycle and discuss what
stays the same and what changes.
Before we explain, it would behelpful to check our website,
urukpmcom.
Look for the papers page underthe knowledge tab.
You will find the originalarticle relevant to this episode
(06:04):
, which includes the relevantgraphics.
We begin with the discoveryphase.
Every project yes, every singleone needs discovery.
This is where we define thebusiness case, study feasibility
, get sponsor buy-in and set thefoundation for success.
Some guides call thispre-project, but I disagree.
(06:26):
This is part of the project.
It's where the valueproposition begins.
It is where we define value.
We hear a lot about value whichmust be defined here, yet we
consider this phase as outsidethe project.
Does that make any sense?
I will rephrase how can weensure value if we consider the
(06:49):
phase where we must define it tobe outside the project
lifecycle?
A reminder this is trueregardless of the product
development approach.
Then we move into therequirement stage.
Here we explore thestakeholders expectations and
define requirements.
We have not designed yet, justthe what and the why.
(07:11):
This apply whether we'rebuilding a hospital, a highway
or a mobile app.
After that comes the definitionstage.
Now things begin to diverge.
In sequential projects, wedefine as much as possible,
including the preliminary design, budget schedule, quality
guides, assessment of risks andprocurement strategy.
(07:35):
As some practitionersmisunderstand, this is not set
in stone.
We leave room for potentialvalue-added changes.
In iterative projects likesoftware, we might build a
high-level backlog and leaveroom for adjustments and changes
.
Both are valid.
Both depend on the context.
(08:03):
Then comes the delivery phase,or implementation.
Again, the difference isn'tabout waterfall or agile.
It's about how we deliver.
Sequential development we mightsee construction, installation
testing and handover.
Iterative development we mightsee sprints, demos and
continuous releases.
So the difference is not in howwe manage the project.
(08:25):
The difference is in theapproach we use to build the
products, and the best approachmust align with the product
context.
Finally, don't skip theoperational readiness and
project closure.
Yes, even in agile environments, we need to prepare for
operation, go to market, etc.
We also need formal closure.
(08:45):
We need to capture lessonslearned, assess success and
archive project records.
That's how we ensure continuousimprovement.
So, to summarize, all projectsneed these phases.
What changes is how we do them?
(09:07):
Part four myths, misconceptionsand the path forward.
Now let's tackle some mythsbecause unfortunately, some
well-meaning agilists or eventraditionalists spread ideas
that simply aren't true.
Myth one traditional planningis rigid.
Not true.
Competent project managers planprogressively.
(09:28):
We use rolling wave planning.
Plans evolve.
Myth two traditional projectsdon't communicate Wrong again,
communication happens daily inmeetings and reports, even
informally.
Myth three traditional projectsdon't allow change.
Number change is allowed, butit's assessed for cost and
(09:51):
impact and sometimes it's notworth the disruption.
Myth four Agile doesn't need aproject lifecycle.
Well then, what was thediscovery phase, the business
case, the backlog?
Agile doesn't erase the PLC, itjust looks at differently.
Myth five requirements stage isunnecessary in Agile.
(10:15):
If you don't know what problemyou're solving, why are you
building anything?
We must stop drawing battlelines between agile and
waterfall.
These are not competingreligions.
We must focus on value, contextand competence.
A successful project manager isnot the one who goes agile,
(10:36):
it's the one who understands theenvironment, tailors the method
and delivers value consistently.
All right, my friends, let'swrap this up.
We explored today what itreally means to manage projects
beyond Agile and Waterfall.
(10:58):
Projects are not about fittinginto trendy methods.
They are about deliveringresults, serving a purpose and
(11:21):
transforming vision into value,and that required wisdom,
flexibility and maturity.
If today's episode helped yousee things differently, I invite
you to share it, subscribe,leave a review and, most
importantly, have a conversationwith your team.
You and, most importantly, havea conversation with your team.
(11:45):
Ask are we focusing on methodsor on value?
For more information about ourwork, visit urukpmcom or contact
me directly on LinkedIn.
Until next time, this is MunirAjam, reminding you to lead with
clarity, act with purpose andalways manage with intent.
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