December 6, 2024 • 43 mins
Join us as we sit down with the extraordinary Amber, an artist turned activist and academic leader, who has merged her passions to create the Justice Fleet—a groundbreaking mobile museum dedicated to social justice. Amber opens up about how her unique background in art and activism shaped her innovative teaching methods, ultimately leading to the birth of the Justice Fleet. This mobile museum addresses mental health and healing justice, focusing especially on the higher education landscape. Amber shares her challenging journey from faculty to administration, and how a pivotal opportunity at UC Berkeley reignited her passion for educational leadership after nearly leaving academia behind.
Amber's story unfolds as we explore the nuances of leadership in a demanding academic environment, particularly at institutions like UC Berkeley. Discover how embracing vulnerability and psychological safety can revolutionize both personal and organizational growth. As Amber reflects on her experiences during the pandemic, she reveals how leadership has shifted towards a more collaborative approach, valuing individual expertise over rigid hierarchy. This episode sheds light on the transformative power of acknowledging humanity and purpose in fostering a supportive community, a lesson learned through Amber’s sessions with senior leaders.
We also tackle the complexities surrounding DEI work and social change, highlighting the importance of building trust and relationships in advancing these efforts. Amber shares her insights on using qualitative data for program assessment, advocating for a more humane and growth-focused approach to evaluation. We delve into societal pressures such as cancel culture, proposing more compassionate responses to accountability. As we wrap up, Amber celebrates the role of grassroots movements and Generation Alpha in driving humanitarian change, offering hope for a future shaped by second chances, free speech, and resilience. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on the intersection of art, leadership, and education.
Want more insights into the Higher Ed Space?
Check-out our Newsletter.
Please leave a review on your favorite podcast player!! It helps support the show.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Right, amber, how did you go from being an artist
activist professor to whatyou're currently doing?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I would love to just know a little bit more about
your arc and then a bit moreabout your work now an educator,
and much of my work when I wasa professor was sort of folded
(00:29):
in on itself.
So the art came out in how Itaught, the activism came out in
how I taught, and over time Istarted realizing these pieces
of me really enhance who I am asan educator, as a leader.
They don't detract right.
And so I had to figure out howto merge these things so that I
(00:50):
wasn't doing the labor of tryingto keep them separate.
And so I started kind ofworking through the initiatives.
I created the Justice Fleet.
It's a mobile social justicemuseum that fosters healing
through art, dialogue and play.
And that's where everythingsort of merged together and I
began to see sort of glimmers ofwhat my future could be.
And so the Justice Fleet, youknow, we have three exhibits
(01:13):
where we're helping peopleactively heal from the things
they're experiencing asactivists, organizers, educators
, leaders, while also collectingdata and writing about healing
processes and writing about therole of healing justice.
In places like higher ed, wherethose things really don't mix,
you know, we teach mental healthprofessionals but we don't
(01:34):
actually create the conditionsfor our staff, our faculty, to
understand their own mentalhealth and how these sort of
environments, you know, diminishmental health, and so once I
sort of developed that entitythat the justice fleet, I
started getting a lot of callsto come and speak and talk about
(01:56):
it and things of that nature.
And I think that's kind of thecatalyst into leadership.
When a professor has a nichething that people want to talk
about, they become, you know, inthe spotlight.
They get asked to be on allkinds of things.
And I saw that happening to meand I think that naturally kind
of pushed me into the place ofleadership a full professor of
(02:21):
communication to a vicepresident, literally overnight.
And then I find myself in thisadministrative place and the
learning curve is huge.
A lot of, I think, facultydon't.
Really, if you've never been inan administrative position, it
is very easy to make assumptionsabout how administration works,
(02:42):
and I had all of my ownassumptions.
You know, why isn't thisgetting done?
Why aren't we doing this?
Why can't you just do this?
And then all of a sudden you'relike, oh, oh, I see now Right.
And so going from faculty toadministration was so jarring
that I almost said I'm done withhigher ed.
I don't like how decisions aremade.
(03:03):
I don't like how exclusivethese spaces are.
I don't like the lack oftransparency.
This is not in alignment withmy values.
I think I'm going to leavehigher ed and that's when I got
recruited by UC Berkeley and theattraction there was really
about that external facingnarrative of being this really
(03:24):
progressive institution, reallycaring about the work in a
different kind of way, and so Iallowed myself to be open to it
and that's kind of how I gothere.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's so cool and so many open threads in that that
I want to sort of go back to,because you said so much there
that I think is really powerful.
But before we sort of dive in,what's the Justice Fleet?
Can you contextualize that forlisteners?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So the Justice Fleet is a mobile social justice
museum.
We foster healing through art,dialogue and play.
It started off as activities Icreated for the classroom and my
students over the course of 10years were like Dr J, you got to
get this out the classroom.
Like, these activities aretransformative, figure out how
to get them to people who needthem.
And so I created a summer classJourney to Justice class it was
(04:16):
really.
The official title wasCommunicating Across Racial
Division, and so we use thatclass to kind of figure out what
would an external communityfacing experience look like
using these activities.
And so that's how we came upwith the Justice Fleet.
The name was different when westarted.
It was like the journey tojustice or something.
(04:37):
It wasn't very cute, but I'm ahuge superhero nerd and I love
the justice league and all thosethings.
I was like what do we call itFleet?
Cause I wanted to be mobile.
The idea is that justice likeyou take stuff to the people,
you don't make them come.
You know you think about.
If you wake up really depressed, it's hard just to get out of
bed, let alone call a stranger,make an appointment, show up to
(05:00):
someone's office and spill yourguts that's, that's hard.
Right up to someone's officeand spill your guts, that's hard
right.
So how do we bring things topeople and make healing more
accessible, less intimidating,less daunting?
So the first exhibit is RadicalForgiveness.
That activity started at LMU, atLoyola Marymount University in
Los Angeles.
I was teaching a class and LMU.
(05:21):
Some of the students there areextremely affluent.
Many of them drove cars thatcost more than I'd make in like
two or three years, okay, and sowhen I got to the lesson, the
class was communication, cultureand identity, and when we got
to the segment on privilege, mystudents were frozen with guilt,
like, oh my gosh, I'm a badperson because I have access to
(05:44):
all this racial privilege, classprivilege, education privilege.
And I knew I was like, oh mygosh, I'm a bad person because I
have access to all this racialprivilege, class privilege,
education privilege.
And I knew I was like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's not where we're goingwith this.
I don't want you to get stuckin the guilt.
I want you to think about howdo I use my privilege for good.
To whom much is given?
Much is what is it?
Much is required, yeah.
To whom much?
is given, much is required, andso I'm an artist, that's how I
(06:06):
process.
So this is that first entranceinto bringing art into the
classroom.
So I sent my students on amission.
I said I want you all to go geta small canvas and I want you
to paint your biases on thatcanvas and just ask for
forgiveness.
And so they came back to class,they all painted.
They painted lots of differentthings, being, you know, holding
onto my purse tighter because ablack man got into the elevator
(06:26):
, locking my doors becausethere's an unhoused person on
the street, assuming an unhousedperson is there because they're
, and their addiction and notnot being a whole human Right,
like just you, you're herebecause you made bad choices.
And so what happened when theywere presenting their canvases?
Is it got even sadder.
And I was just like, oh, mygosh, like oh, how do I turn
(06:48):
this around?
Like I really.
So I had this wood palette, soI went and printed all of these
inspirational quotes and then Ibrought them to class.
We cut them all out and we puttheir canvases on this wood
palette with all theseinspirational quotes around them
.
Then I had them write their ownquotes and what I saw transform
was the glimmer in their eyeswhen they realized I am doing
(07:13):
something about my bias.
I don't have to stay with mycanvas, I can move it towards
something transformative.
So the next class I tried itwith more intention and we
created what's called aforgiveness quilt.
So I had them paint on canvasesand we put them together and we
have this quilt.
And I also added to thisassignment you can paint your
(07:34):
bias and ask for forgiveness, oryou can paint how others have
been biased towards you andgrant forgiveness.
And then more magic started tohappen.
So I did that activity over thecourse of 10 years.
We would create these quiltsand we would put them on display
like in our halls everysemester.
And so that was the activitythat the students were like how
do we take this to the people?
So our first exhibit we gothrough this whole.
(07:55):
We have these really tall signsthat kind of take you through,
like what are the myths offorgiveness?
Because most people learn aboutforgiveness in church.
You know forgive and forget,turn the other cheek.
But that doesn't work inorganizing spaces, it doesn't
work in classrooms, because youcan't just forgive.
If you forget about something,you can't fix it.
So how do we release thefeelings, but also hold each
(08:19):
other accountable to beingbetter.
People hold these systemsaccountable to the ways that
they create oppression, and sowe created that exhibit.
People paint their canvases.
We sit, we sew them together.
We talk about healing, we talkabout growth, we talk about
forgiveness, and so we've beenpopping that up for since 2017.
(08:39):
We have thousands of canvases,we have two huge quilts and many
, many more tiles waiting to besewn into a new quilt.
So, yeah, that's so the radicalforgiveness.
Then we have radical imagination, which is basically a chuck box
or portable camping kitchenfilled with art supplies, crafts
(08:59):
, toys like Legos there's Batmanin there LED lights, batteries,
all kinds of stuff, and we askpeople to build the communities
that they would want to live,work, learn and play in.
Because I noticed a while ago,if you would ask an activist
like what's wrong with the world, they could talk for years, but
you ask them what you want,it's like crickets, because
we've been, we've been trainedto dismantle systems of
(09:21):
oppression, but not how torebuild in their wake.
So what are we moving towards?
And so we created RadicalImagination to give people a
space to imagine something else,outside of the constraints,
where nothing's at stake.
It's just toys.
And so what we realized is wecould extract so many good ideas
(09:42):
and so much ethnographic datain like a 75 minute period,
because we're watching peoplename their problems and assess
them in real time.
And then the third exhibit isTransfuturism.
It's a celebration of Blacktrans joy.
It's the exhibit that probablylooks the most like an exhibit.
We have 25 life-size canvasesof 26 real people who identify
(10:03):
as trans or non-binary and it'sjust a celebration of this.
Like you know, queer,gender-free future.
That's kind of rooted inAfrofuturism.
And our next exhibit we'rebuilding a grief gardens, so
intentional green spaces withhorticultural therapy for people
to heal publicly, because somany things happen to us
(10:24):
publicly and they need to behealed in community.
You know, you think about COVID.
As a country, as a nation, westill haven't mourned all the
people who died, you know.
So how do we begin to sort oftap into that grief together and
acknowledge that grief is nottaboo, it's not weird, it's not?
(10:44):
Everybody grieves differentlyand it's a beautiful thing, like
how lucky are we to havesomething to grieve.
So, yeah, that's the justice.
We have a truck that we don'treally use anymore because I
wanted an RV that people comeinto.
So now we're looking for an RV,but yeah, so we're a mobile
museum doing the work.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That is so cool and thank you for for sharing the
context.
I think that's just suchfascinating insight into your
work and I think it connects thelearning on so many different
levels and healing on so manydifferent levels and like a
truly sort of transformativeexperience.
How does that inform your work?
Now, right, because you talkedsort of in the initial question
(11:22):
about you know transitioning andhaving to step into this
administrative role Like how areyou maybe sort of approaching
that uniquely or different,given this like incredible thing
that you've built and takenaround to so many places?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You know, I think my unique contribution to higher ed
and to UC Berkeley is the hardwork.
My unique contribution tohigher ed and to UC Berkeley is
the heart work.
It's hard to focus on peopleand personnel when you work at
an institution that is so wellrenowned for its amazing
research, its amazing faculty.
It is a very get in there andget it done.
Space right.
(11:59):
We have all these brilliantpeople and I think sometimes you
forget to slow down, pause, bereflective, see each other as
human.
You think about leadership.
When you're a leader, you areconstantly praising.
Going down, you're constantlytelling your team about their
contributions and all thewonderful things they do and
(12:20):
just creating that cohesion,that inspiration like thank you.
There's gratitude going down,but what comes up is normally
just criticism.
Often leaders have to deal withbeing blamed for everything,
things that have nothing to dowith their job sometimes, and
that hurts.
So who's holding those seniorleaders and helping them be
(12:40):
reflective, helping themunderstand and move beyond the
hurt, because hurt people hurtpeople, right.
And so I think my role as aleader is really to help people
remember their humanity, theirdignity, and to give them tools
to help others do the same, andthat's really how I approach my
work, my leadership and justcommunity really.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful thing remembering you
and the.
I couldn't agree more with whatyou said about leaders and the
sort of the blame and all thethings that sort of like can
bubble up, which I think is justan organizational dynamic that
happens in our space, the leversthat you found most effective
(13:28):
for making change happen inthose spaces.
Especially when you're at aplace like Berkeley right, which
has tons of, like highintelligence, like high human
capital, like incrediblybrilliant people, how do you
make that change happen andthink about that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I think the first step is making sure people
understand that all of us havethings we need to heal through
all of us and then sharing thatthat process can be an
intellectual process too.
It's a part of our work.
We've done tons of work withour deans, our council of deans,
with our cabinet members.
(14:07):
We've done work with seniorleaders and I will say we had to
kind of have proof of concept.
We had to interview all of ourdeans first before and then
present back to them what weheard before they'd say, oh okay
, I'll do it Right.
So our first session they'rekind of like why are we here?
Like I have other things I canbe doing, but by the end of that
session they were like we lookforward to the next one, other
(14:30):
things I can be doing, but bythe end of that session they
were like we look forward to thenext one.
And so we've had we do aboutfive or six, uh, um, uh, an
academic year, um.
So I think a huge piece is ismaking sure people know that
they are, that they, that thathealing is necessary, that's a
human thing, that that it's okay, that it's okay to be
(14:52):
vulnerable, it's okay to bringour whole selves into these
spaces and then making sure wefollow up in ways that continue
to promote what we callpsychological safety, that it's
okay to be your whole self hereand it's not easy, but a lot of
it is around, you know being apossibility, model and modeling
what that looks like beingvulnerable, being honest, taking
(15:15):
the time to just pause andreflect.
I remember being in a meetingand someone shared that a very
beloved colleague had passedaway and then we just kept
talking and I just said, look,can we pause?
I want to honor that someonehas died.
Let's take a moment of silenceand share with me what you loved
about this person.
Let's just honor them.
And the group was soappreciative because they just
(15:38):
said we never take a moment andwe don't take a moment for
anything.
We focus on all the things thatcan go wrong, all the crisis.
I'm like well, are wecelebrating our wins?
Because the small wins is whatkeeps us moving forward when
we're in those moments of crisis.
So really, it's about balance.
We are humans at the end of theday, right?
So where's that balance?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, that's really beautiful and something that I
think just isn't really sort ofhonored or cherished in the
space as much as it should.
How has your perspectivechanged?
You talked a little bit aboutthe pandemic much as it should.
How has your perspectivechanged?
You talked a little bit aboutthe pandemic.
Has your perspective onleadership changed, sort of
post-pandemic, after goingeverything, and sort of stepping
into these new and differentroles?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, the question is how right Like that's something
to think through.
Question is how right Likethat's something to think
through.
Something that I noticed duringthe pandemic was the way people
approach leaders for answers,and oftentimes we forget when we
are also going through thetrauma or the difficult thing.
We don't have the answers, butwe're supposed to, so instead we
(16:46):
respond with like policy andwhen our constituents are really
looking for support, care, youknow.
And so a huge learning momentduring COVID was how do we again
pause and be vulnerable and sayI don't have the answers
because I'm going through thiswith you.
Can we work together to figurethis out?
(17:07):
Another thing that I thinkCOVID illuminated was how do we
find those pockets of expertisethat have nothing to do with our
title and our hierarchy butthat are germane to this moment?
And so we found ourselvesasking different kinds of people
for thought partnership that wemight not normally ask, and it
(17:29):
really shifted how hierarchieswork and like our perspective on
hierarchy and what does it meanto bring people to the table
because of who they are and whatthey can do, not because of
their title, and it just reallyopens up so much more
possibility, and I think it alsohelps people feel seen and
(17:50):
valued, and that's what you wantfrom the people you work with,
from your colleagues.
You want them to know thatthey're valued, that they're
moving in their purpose and thattheir purpose adds value.
I definitely learned to slowdown.
Life is short, and if we areconstantly in fight or flight
mode, constantly stressed andworried about the next crisis,
(18:12):
we're not doing a service toourselves or our institutions.
And so COVID really helped mekind of just slow down and just
deeply appreciate my life, thelives of those around me.
The work will always be there.
The work will always be there.
(18:45):
We don't have to show up fullyand 100% perfect every day.
Sometimes our personal best isthe worst in a moment, and
that's okay.
And so just know, what are we?
What are we seeing, not justhearing?
Cause sometimes people don'tspeak.
So you have to be reallyattentive to what people need.
Cause sometimes, when thetrauma is heavy and hard, we
don't talk, you know.
So how are we being attentiveto the things that aren't as
(19:06):
prominent and clear?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Those are.
Those are great insights.
You mentioned something priorabout your work with the deans
and the critical need you know,when you're doing this healing
work, of that proof of conceptright Of like demonstrating
those early wins, like helpingcreate that buy-in so people see
the value in what you're doing.
How do you approach people whoare skeptical about the
(19:32):
importance of like diversity andinclusion or your sort of
broader healing work and it'simportant in the workplace?
Can you talk through like howyou approach that and work
through to create some of thechange you're looking to make?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Absolutely.
I think one of the reasons wedon't get buy-in is because
people think they have to showup perfectly prepared and ready.
Especially with DEI and withcancel culture on the rise,
that's terrifying.
What if I make a mistake?
So a lot of people don't getinvolved, not because they're
skeptical or because they don'tcare, but because they're afraid
(20:08):
of messing up.
And so a huge piece of what I dois one of the questions I'll do
, like in an icebreaker is youknow, tell me about a time you
caused harm because of someone'ssocial identity.
What did you do to repair itand what were the outcomes?
And when people hear thesestories of these leaders royally
messing up, they're like oh,I'm not alone.
It flattens this notion that Ihave to show up right and
(20:32):
perfect.
I mean, I tell people I've beendoing this work for two decades
and I still make mistakes.
Mistakes are a part of theprocess.
The second thing is helpingpeople by showing what's
possible and knowing what tofocus on.
When we look at knowing what tofocus on, when we look at
(20:55):
persuasion tactics, we don't gofor the person who disagrees the
most.
We go for the person whodisagrees the least and we inch
them forward.
So I focus on people who areready for this work and want to
do this work, and less on peoplewho hate on the work, because
that's not a good use of my time.
I don't want to change thehearts and minds of people who
don't want me to exist.
I want to help grow the heartsand minds of people who are
(21:15):
willing to do the work, but justneed support, need resources,
need guidance.
So how we focus our energy iscritical when we're thinking
about you know, DEI work andsocial change.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Have you noticed any sort oflike tipping point in that work
right, meaning that like ifyou're changing hearts and minds
of people who were maybe lessskeptical or a little bit more
open or just need that nudging,does that in your experience
sort of help bring other peoplealong or sort of shift the
(21:50):
perspectives of people that area little bit sort of slower Like
?
Is there some kind of likeorganizational tipping point
that as you change hearts andminds with groups of people, get
more people on board?
Do you notice a sort of broaderchange in the culture, or
what's been your experience withthat?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I think the greatest way to create change is noticing
.
It's building trust, and youbuild trust by encircling people
with the right friends andcolleagues that they trust.
Who do you listen to?
Dean of deans?
(22:33):
Who's the vice chancellor ofvice chancellors?
Who's the chancellor ofchancellors that people come to
for advice?
You get that person on board.
They'll get everybody else onboard right?
So a lot of it is strategicallyfinding those voices that people
listen to, that people trust,until you become that voice
right.
So there are people who willlisten to me, no matter what I
tell them to do, because theyknow me, they value my expertise
, they trust me, they trust myintegrity.
(22:53):
They trust me, they trust myintegrity.
If I haven't built that yet, Ican't just throw people in there
right, just get in the ring andgo.
So a lot of it is networkingand building relationships and
being in community.
In prolonged terms, the moretime we spend in community with
folks, the more they get to knowus, the more they will put
those guards down.
In community with folks, themore they get to know us, the
(23:14):
more they will put those guardsdown.
Skepticism, I think, is healthy,because if you walk into
something fully believing it,who knows what you're learning?
Right, be skeptical.
I want you to question me andthen come around and say oh, I
get it, because now you'reembodying that lesson.
Right, be skeptical.
Tell me, I'm wrong.
Let's work through thistogether, yeah.
(23:38):
So I think that's a tippingpoint, trusting the process when
people begin to trust theprocess.
Magic can happen, right.
But how do we get them there?
And it's not a boom.
Let's go say the right thingand you'll have them.
No, it's about relationships,right.
It's about leading by influenceand being right in the
community.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I love that talking point be skeptical.
Let's work through thistogether.
That's such a beautifulsentiment.
With everything happening inthis space and we're seeing
shifting and changingdemographics in higher education
, we're seeing a really sort ofshrinking number of students
that are actually sort of going,you know, going into education
(24:17):
in general.
I think there is this a lot ofpolitical bifurcation, you know,
rising distrust, like also.
So there's a happening sort ofbroader cultural landscape.
Where do you feel the biggesttension in your work?
You're at this incredibleinstitution.
You're moving the dial on someimportant work.
Where are you feelingpersonally, like this is a pinch
(24:38):
.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I think the greatest moment of tension for me is the
space between crisis andimagination in the future.
Crisis and imagination in thefuture.
As long as we're in crisis mode, we're either dealing with the
current crisis or we areanticipating the next crisis,
(25:02):
and the stress in both of thosesituations is the same right,
and it's very stressful Cortisolon like 5,000.
There's a moment between thecurrent crisis and anticipating
the next crisis where we can say, hey, let's do some feed
forward, let's look to thefuture.
What can we do to prevent thesecrises and create systems that
(25:27):
withstand them in differentkinds of ways?
It's hard to imagine when youfeel constantly attacked,
undervalued, when you feel likeeverything's on fire, it's hard
to be optimistic or skeptical orsay, hey, let's think about
this thing.
What can we do differently?
And so for me, that's the sweetspot how do we shift from
(25:48):
crisis mode to futurity?
And we can't stay in either one.
But there's a balance therethat says let's work through
what is happening but also keepour eye on our North Star.
Where are we going and how arewe getting there?
And if you can get that balance, I think you're golden.
(26:09):
That balance is really hard.
It is really hard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
It seems like such a tenuousthing, right Of like sort of
being able to hold the crisisand be aware of it but, at the
same time, knowing what'shappening on the horizon.
And how do you, as you put it,sort of putting your feet
forward and where to sort ofwhere to put that even right and
how to sort of do that, knowingthat you can't stay still, but,
yeah, holding the tensionbetween the two, I think is a
(26:38):
great way to think about that.
When you think about thechanges that you're trying to
make and how you assess those,how do you think about, like
using data or sort ofassessments sort of more broadly
, data or sort of assessmentssort of more broadly, you know,
I think, like anytime you'rethinking about like really sort
(26:59):
of human or sort of dynamicorganizational change I know
that can be a really sort oftricky thing.
How do you personally put alens on that?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
What you just said walked right out of my head.
What was the first you said?
I had the answer too, and thenit just went away.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Sorry, I'm about to talk to you out of the answer.
No, but really sort of thinkingabout you know data and
assessment?
Yeah, and moving institutionforward with all the layered
organizational dynamics.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, data is critical to this work.
It is critical to gettingpeople to understand how
important it is.
It's critical to assessing howwe do it.
I remember learning aboutassessment.
So apparently professors aren'ttaught how to profess right,
we're not taught how to teach.
You're like, hey, you're anexpert of this thing, go teach
it.
And so I didn't know thatbecause I was very lucky.
(27:47):
I went to Penn State and ChrisJohnston he was our.
He was a professor of rhetoricand he was our pedagogy teacher.
He taught us how to teach,taught us how to write syllabi,
taught us how to write exams andessay questions, and he taught
us assessment.
So I learned assessment in asafe space where I was not asked
to do it.
So my approach to assessment isvery butterflies and rainbows
(28:11):
and sunshine.
I love assessment because ithelps me and sunshine, I love
assessment because it helps mebe better.
I love evaluations because ithelps me grow, you know.
And so when we get to the placewhere we have to evaluate our
programs, I think a lot ofpeople get terrified because
they're like you're going totell me my program's bad.
You're going to, I'm going tolose my job.
You're going to, you know,disband the program, but really
it's about how can we make thisthe best version of this program
(28:33):
we can.
So I geek out on data.
Data is critical to everythingthat we do.
How do we know it's working?
And I think one of the problemswith our data now is we focus
too much, we are over-reliant onquantitative data.
So in DEI, a lot of timesyou're looking at graduation
rates, retention rates,enrollment rates, diversity
numbers, who's here, who's oncampus, who's not here, but
(28:55):
we're not asking what are youexperiencing?
So we do climate surveys, sure,but that's not really getting
to the nuance, the heart of whatit means to really flourish in
an institution of highereducation, whether you're staff,
faculty administrator, student,and so for me, the data is
critical and it's insufficient.
So how do we create betterpathways to get data that is
(29:18):
really robust, so we reallyunderstand the story of what's
happening and how to tell thatstory and how to change that
story?
So yeah, data is critical, it'scritical.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You just pointed out some critical gaps there.
Do you find that if you'redoing a climate survey, are
there questions that you reallylike to ask or index on to
really feel or see if you'removing?
Because you're right, we'relooking at retention, first to
(29:53):
second year year, six year,graduation, like all of the same
kind of figures, and these havea disproportionate amount of
like impact on likeinstitutional levers and
policies and all of that kind ofstuff.
Um, how do you think about thatsort of data collection side to
sort of like hit those gaps?
Is it is surveys, is it likefocus groups, is it probably all
(30:15):
of the above?
How do you think about sort ofgetting those?
And then, like, what are thequestions that you're really
sort of trying to ask to get theheart of those?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
It absolutely is all of the above plus right?
So we have to know the numbers,because that tells a story
about systemic impact.
We have to do the surveysbecause it creates space to
understand what possibly mightbe happening.
But we also know that surveysrarely get 100% participation,
(30:49):
and often the loudest surveytakers are the most angry and so
or the loudest is the mosthappy.
We usually are missing themiddle, right.
So people who are pissed arelike I'm doing this survey, and
people who are like I love thisjob, I'm doing this survey.
So we get these reallypolarized answers Like
(31:10):
everything here is terrible,everything here is great.
There's this huge chunk in themiddle that's very quiet and
that's where the nuance is.
And so, yes to the data that'squantitative, yes to the survey
data that could be quantitativeand qualitative.
And I think we also have tobecome expert ethnographers,
people watchers, peoplelisteners.
(31:31):
Again, listen with your eyes.
What are you seeing?
That is indicating that maybethese two polarized constituents
don't speak for the wholepopulation, and so I think we
need to do better at listeningand ethnographic data collection
(31:52):
, because not everybody is goingto do the survey and all too
often our quantitative datatells just a snippet of the
story, right.
So that's yeah, and of courseI'm an ethnographer so I'm
biased.
You can take that with a grainof salt.
But yeah, we got to do betterat listening and getting the
stories that aren't so obvious.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, I love that insight and you just underscored
a big weakness of quantitativedata, so I really appreciate
that insight and it's going tobe better If you could wave a
magic wand and just fix anythingprofessionally.
(32:35):
Um, what do you think thatwould be?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
so, mike, I ask this question to people all the time.
It's rarely reflected back tome.
Thank you, so many things tolike, fix um.
I think right now, the firstthing I'd fix is like the honest
common denominator and,remembering that we are human,
(33:04):
cancel.
Culture made us feel likepeople have to be perfect.
Social media, you know we seethe highlight reel.
We don't see what's reallygoing on in people's lives.
So there's this really intenseglobal pressure to be on, to be
perfect, to not make mistakes,and it really strips us of our
(33:45):
humanity, and so I think a hugepiece of this sort of puzzle
that needs to be fixedaccountable.
But I think in 2024, that lookslike public punishment and I
don't think that that's healthyGuilt will only get so much
change.
Punishment will only get somuch change.
(34:05):
I don't punish my kids.
I talk to them about whatthey've done, how that impacted
people, and I hope that theyrespect, love and care about
themselves, each other, meenough to say I'm going to do
better, because that's anembodied lesson, that's
something that you can take withyou.
But if you say I'm going tospank you because you did this
thing well, the pain will stop.
I remember one time my kids,they were under 10.
(34:28):
And they just said, mom, whycan't you just spank us?
And I was like what you want meto hit you?
And they're like yeah.
Because this, like learningstuff, is harder than just hit
me.
The pain will go away.
And I was like, no, I'm not, Idon't hit kids.
So I feel that way for humanity, like I feel like so many of us
just forget we are human and soour differences become so
(34:54):
catastrophic and so big and sopolarizing.
So, like, what is the honestcommon denominator?
Where can we start?
What is the point of departurewhere we can all agree?
The first, the first Arabic UNadvisor I have to go find his
name.
I know Zahid is his first name.
(35:16):
I'll go find his name.
He came to speak at my formerinstitution and he shared with
us as someone who has advisedthe UN on global peace and
international conflict.
He said the only way we willmove forward is if we get to an
indisputable truth.
Until everybody understands thetruth, what is happening, we
(35:41):
can't move forward because we'lljust instead fight about who's
the most oppressed, who's thebiggest victim, who needs the
most attention, who's wrong,who's right.
We're just going back and forth, back and forth, if we can get
to an indisputable truth we canmove forward.
And there was another, pollyMurray, one of the first
non-binary folks I know who waslike in the scholarship world.
They said in order to heal, wemust tell the truth.
(36:04):
We have to tell the truth.
So I guess if I could snap myfingers, I would help us
understand that we are all humanand we're all suffering to some
degree.
Can we honor the suffering inothers who we might not agree
with, and then can we begin totell the truth.
So that's what I would want anindisputable truth that we can
(36:26):
all move forward.
The longer we have to argue thatracism still exists, the longer
we're not dismantling thesystem of racism, right?
We spend so much time trying toget folks to understand how
racism shows up, how sexismshows up, how xenophobia shows
up, how Islamophobia shows up.
It's hard to do that educationand fight these systems, right?
(36:48):
So can we just get to the truthwhere we see yes, this is here,
I'm not making this up, I amnot a snowflake, this is a
problem, you know.
So, yeah, that's probably whatI do, and I mean, of course, I
snap my fingers and end whitesupremacist, capitalist
patriarchy.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
That too.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
That'd be nice to yeah, as long as you're snapping
.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's it.
That's a really beautiful,beautiful, beautiful sentiment.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Um absolutely looking forward,like, what are you excited about
?
Like just to sort of end thepositive note, what are you
excited about?
What changes do you see comingdown the pike that get you
personally excited?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
um, that's a hard question right now.
Right, because there's there'sso many things that are daunting
and terrifying.
Um, oof, how to answer what amI excited about it?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
is.
It is a hard one, that's a hardone I probably shouldn't have
ended it on such a hard one, butit's such a beautiful sentiment
like we should again.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So early I said feed forward, not feed forward
f-e-e-e.
We should all be feedingforward and you know feeding
back.
But it's maybe I can say, maybenot so much what I'm excited
about, what I'm grateful for umbecause it's hard to see so much
what I'm excited about but whatI'm grateful for, Because it's
(38:17):
hard to see the future when weare in the middle of so many
global conflicts and the amountof people who are dying in the
Congo, in Sudan, in Gaza.
It's hard to be like, oh, let'sbe optimistic.
And I do know that it's hard tobe like, oh, let's be
optimistic.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And I do know that these conflicts, these wars,
these deaths are not sustainable.
They're not.
It has to stop at some point.
The question is when, andthat's the hard part.
When does the death toll numbermax out part, when does the
(39:00):
death toll number max out?
So I am grateful that war isnot sustainable.
I am grateful that there are somany people pushing for
humanitarian responses that arerooted in futurity, rooted in
love, rooted in care, rooted incompassion, rooted in like,
honoring difference.
There are so many people reallyfighting for change.
They are not in our governmentsnecessarily.
(39:25):
They're not leaders in thetraditional institutional sense.
They're everyday people who arepicking up the pieces.
I am grateful for that work andI'm also grateful that there
are folks who still create joyand beauty amidst the chaos,
(39:46):
because that's how we getthrough it.
People who are creatingbeautiful artwork about what's
happening.
That inspires us, you know.
That pushes us to see what'sgoing on differently.
Folks making music.
I watched the movie Wish withmy then three-year-old and
there's this segment of like.
(40:07):
There's like the revolutionsong, yeah, and I listen to it
often, even when the kid's notin the car or not at home, but
it's, it's that song.
It's called um, knowing what Iknow now and it's about these
kids, you know like figuring outhey, this leader sucks, we're
gonna take them down, but theway they sing it's just, oh,
(40:29):
it's like yeah you know it'slike, yeah, you know, hit the
ground running.
It's a beautiful song, and so Iam thankful for people who
create stuff like that amidstchaos and say no, we're going to
keep going.
And I'm thankful for sleep, youknow, and rest, you know.
Rest is resistance.
Trisha, hersey, let's go Likeremember to rest, because that
(40:51):
is also an act of resistance.
So, yeah, I am thankful to mycolleagues who persist.
I'm thankful to the children.
Gen alpha is a differentgeneration.
That's what I'm excited for inthe future.
There it is, we got there.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Gen alpha.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They're reversing cancel culture.
They believe in second chances.
They believe in free speech.
They don't believe in silencing.
Gen alpha is a differentgeneration and I am excited to
see what they're going to do.
I really am me too so yeah,that's what I'm excited we got
there that was a beautifulanswer.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
That was a.
I'm hitting that before we, uh,we go any further.
That was, that was wonderful.
Right, amber, how did you go from being an artist
activist professor to whatyou're currently doing?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I would love to just know a little bit more about
your arc and then a bit moreabout your work now an educator,
and much of my work when I wasa professor was sort of folded
(00:29):
in on itself.
So the art came out in how Itaught, the activism came out in
how I taught, and over time Istarted realizing these pieces
of me really enhance who I am asan educator, as a leader.
They don't detract right.
And so I had to figure out howto merge these things so that I
(00:50):
wasn't doing the labor of tryingto keep them separate.
And so I started kind ofworking through the initiatives.
I created the Justice Fleet.
It's a mobile social justicemuseum that fosters healing
through art, dialogue and play.
And that's where everythingsort of merged together and I
began to see sort of glimmers ofwhat my future could be.
And so the Justice Fleet, youknow, we have three exhibits
(01:13):
where we're helping peopleactively heal from the things
they're experiencing asactivists, organizers, educators
, leaders, while also collectingdata and writing about healing
processes and writing about therole of healing justice.
In places like higher ed, wherethose things really don't mix,
you know, we teach mental healthprofessionals but we don't
(01:34):
actually create the conditionsfor our staff, our faculty, to
understand their own mentalhealth and how these sort of
environments, you know, diminishmental health, and so once I
sort of developed that entitythat the justice fleet, I
started getting a lot of callsto come and speak and talk about
(01:56):
it and things of that nature.
And I think that's kind of thecatalyst into leadership.
When a professor has a nichething that people want to talk
about, they become, you know, inthe spotlight.
They get asked to be on allkinds of things.
And I saw that happening to meand I think that naturally kind
of pushed me into the place ofleadership a full professor of
(02:21):
communication to a vicepresident, literally overnight.
And then I find myself in thisadministrative place and the
learning curve is huge.
A lot of, I think, facultydon't.
Really, if you've never been inan administrative position, it
is very easy to make assumptionsabout how administration works,
(02:42):
and I had all of my ownassumptions.
You know, why isn't thisgetting done?
Why aren't we doing this?
Why can't you just do this?
And then all of a sudden you'relike, oh, oh, I see now Right.
And so going from faculty toadministration was so jarring
that I almost said I'm done withhigher ed.
I don't like how decisions aremade.
(03:03):
I don't like how exclusivethese spaces are.
I don't like the lack oftransparency.
This is not in alignment withmy values.
I think I'm going to leavehigher ed and that's when I got
recruited by UC Berkeley and theattraction there was really
about that external facingnarrative of being this really
(03:24):
progressive institution, reallycaring about the work in a
different kind of way, and so Iallowed myself to be open to it
and that's kind of how I gothere.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That's so cool and so many open threads in that that
I want to sort of go back to,because you said so much there
that I think is really powerful.
But before we sort of dive in,what's the Justice Fleet?
Can you contextualize that forlisteners?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So the Justice Fleet is a mobile social justice
museum.
We foster healing through art,dialogue and play.
It started off as activities Icreated for the classroom and my
students over the course of 10years were like Dr J, you got to
get this out the classroom.
Like, these activities aretransformative, figure out how
to get them to people who needthem.
And so I created a summer classJourney to Justice class it was
(04:16):
really.
The official title wasCommunicating Across Racial
Division, and so we use thatclass to kind of figure out what
would an external communityfacing experience look like
using these activities.
And so that's how we came upwith the Justice Fleet.
The name was different when westarted.
It was like the journey tojustice or something.
(04:37):
It wasn't very cute, but I'm ahuge superhero nerd and I love
the justice league and all thosethings.
I was like what do we call itFleet?
Cause I wanted to be mobile.
The idea is that justice likeyou take stuff to the people,
you don't make them come.
You know you think about.
If you wake up really depressed, it's hard just to get out of
bed, let alone call a stranger,make an appointment, show up to
(05:00):
someone's office and spill yourguts that's, that's hard.
Right up to someone's officeand spill your guts, that's hard
right.
So how do we bring things topeople and make healing more
accessible, less intimidating,less daunting?
So the first exhibit is RadicalForgiveness.
That activity started at LMU, atLoyola Marymount University in
Los Angeles.
I was teaching a class and LMU.
(05:21):
Some of the students there areextremely affluent.
Many of them drove cars thatcost more than I'd make in like
two or three years, okay, and sowhen I got to the lesson, the
class was communication, cultureand identity, and when we got
to the segment on privilege, mystudents were frozen with guilt,
like, oh my gosh, I'm a badperson because I have access to
(05:44):
all this racial privilege, classprivilege, education privilege.
And I knew I was like, oh mygosh, I'm a bad person because I
have access to all this racialprivilege, class privilege,
education privilege.
And I knew I was like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's not where we're goingwith this.
I don't want you to get stuckin the guilt.
I want you to think about howdo I use my privilege for good.
To whom much is given?
Much is what is it?
Much is required, yeah.
To whom much?
is given, much is required, andso I'm an artist, that's how I
(06:06):
process.
So this is that first entranceinto bringing art into the
classroom.
So I sent my students on amission.
I said I want you all to go geta small canvas and I want you
to paint your biases on thatcanvas and just ask for
forgiveness.
And so they came back to class,they all painted.
They painted lots of differentthings, being, you know, holding
onto my purse tighter because ablack man got into the elevator
(06:26):
, locking my doors becausethere's an unhoused person on
the street, assuming an unhousedperson is there because they're
, and their addiction and notnot being a whole human Right,
like just you, you're herebecause you made bad choices.
And so what happened when theywere presenting their canvases?
Is it got even sadder.
And I was just like, oh, mygosh, like oh, how do I turn
(06:48):
this around?
Like I really.
So I had this wood palette, soI went and printed all of these
inspirational quotes and then Ibrought them to class.
We cut them all out and we puttheir canvases on this wood
palette with all theseinspirational quotes around them
.
Then I had them write their ownquotes and what I saw transform
was the glimmer in their eyeswhen they realized I am doing
(07:13):
something about my bias.
I don't have to stay with mycanvas, I can move it towards
something transformative.
So the next class I tried itwith more intention and we
created what's called aforgiveness quilt.
So I had them paint on canvasesand we put them together and we
have this quilt.
And I also added to thisassignment you can paint your
(07:34):
bias and ask for forgiveness, oryou can paint how others have
been biased towards you andgrant forgiveness.
And then more magic started tohappen.
So I did that activity over thecourse of 10 years.
We would create these quiltsand we would put them on display
like in our halls everysemester.
And so that was the activitythat the students were like how
do we take this to the people?
So our first exhibit we gothrough this whole.
(07:55):
We have these really tall signsthat kind of take you through,
like what are the myths offorgiveness?
Because most people learn aboutforgiveness in church.
You know forgive and forget,turn the other cheek.
But that doesn't work inorganizing spaces, it doesn't
work in classrooms, because youcan't just forgive.
If you forget about something,you can't fix it.
So how do we release thefeelings, but also hold each
(08:19):
other accountable to beingbetter.
People hold these systemsaccountable to the ways that
they create oppression, and sowe created that exhibit.
People paint their canvases.
We sit, we sew them together.
We talk about healing, we talkabout growth, we talk about
forgiveness, and so we've beenpopping that up for since 2017.
(08:39):
We have thousands of canvases,we have two huge quilts and many
, many more tiles waiting to besewn into a new quilt.
So, yeah, that's so the radicalforgiveness.
Then we have radical imagination, which is basically a chuck box
or portable camping kitchenfilled with art supplies, crafts
(08:59):
, toys like Legos there's Batmanin there LED lights, batteries,
all kinds of stuff, and we askpeople to build the communities
that they would want to live,work, learn and play in.
Because I noticed a while ago,if you would ask an activist
like what's wrong with the world, they could talk for years, but
you ask them what you want,it's like crickets, because
we've been, we've been trainedto dismantle systems of
(09:21):
oppression, but not how torebuild in their wake.
So what are we moving towards?
And so we created RadicalImagination to give people a
space to imagine something else,outside of the constraints,
where nothing's at stake.
It's just toys.
And so what we realized is wecould extract so many good ideas
(09:42):
and so much ethnographic datain like a 75 minute period,
because we're watching peoplename their problems and assess
them in real time.
And then the third exhibit isTransfuturism.
It's a celebration of Blacktrans joy.
It's the exhibit that probablylooks the most like an exhibit.
We have 25 life-size canvasesof 26 real people who identify
(10:03):
as trans or non-binary and it'sjust a celebration of this.
Like you know, queer,gender-free future.
That's kind of rooted inAfrofuturism.
And our next exhibit we'rebuilding a grief gardens, so
intentional green spaces withhorticultural therapy for people
to heal publicly, because somany things happen to us
(10:24):
publicly and they need to behealed in community.
You know, you think about COVID.
As a country, as a nation, westill haven't mourned all the
people who died, you know.
So how do we begin to sort oftap into that grief together and
acknowledge that grief is nottaboo, it's not weird, it's not?
(10:44):
Everybody grieves differentlyand it's a beautiful thing, like
how lucky are we to havesomething to grieve.
So, yeah, that's the justice.
We have a truck that we don'treally use anymore because I
wanted an RV that people comeinto.
So now we're looking for an RV,but yeah, so we're a mobile
museum doing the work.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That is so cool and thank you for for sharing the
context.
I think that's just suchfascinating insight into your
work and I think it connects thelearning on so many different
levels and healing on so manydifferent levels and like a
truly sort of transformativeexperience.
How does that inform your work?
Now, right, because you talkedsort of in the initial question
(11:22):
about you know transitioning andhaving to step into this
administrative role Like how areyou maybe sort of approaching
that uniquely or different,given this like incredible thing
that you've built and takenaround to so many places?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You know, I think my unique contribution to higher ed
and to UC Berkeley is the hardwork.
My unique contribution tohigher ed and to UC Berkeley is
the heart work.
It's hard to focus on peopleand personnel when you work at
an institution that is so wellrenowned for its amazing
research, its amazing faculty.
It is a very get in there andget it done.
Space right.
(11:59):
We have all these brilliantpeople and I think sometimes you
forget to slow down, pause, bereflective, see each other as
human.
You think about leadership.
When you're a leader, you areconstantly praising.
Going down, you're constantlytelling your team about their
contributions and all thewonderful things they do and
(12:20):
just creating that cohesion,that inspiration like thank you.
There's gratitude going down,but what comes up is normally
just criticism.
Often leaders have to deal withbeing blamed for everything,
things that have nothing to dowith their job sometimes, and
that hurts.
So who's holding those seniorleaders and helping them be
(12:40):
reflective, helping themunderstand and move beyond the
hurt, because hurt people hurtpeople, right.
And so I think my role as aleader is really to help people
remember their humanity, theirdignity, and to give them tools
to help others do the same, andthat's really how I approach my
work, my leadership and justcommunity really.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, that's such a beautiful thing remembering you
and the.
I couldn't agree more with whatyou said about leaders and the
sort of the blame and all thethings that sort of like can
bubble up, which I think is justan organizational dynamic that
happens in our space, the leversthat you found most effective
(13:28):
for making change happen inthose spaces.
Especially when you're at aplace like Berkeley right, which
has tons of, like highintelligence, like high human
capital, like incrediblybrilliant people, how do you
make that change happen andthink about that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
I think the first step is making sure people
understand that all of us havethings we need to heal through
all of us and then sharing thatthat process can be an
intellectual process too.
It's a part of our work.
We've done tons of work withour deans, our council of deans,
with our cabinet members.
(14:07):
We've done work with seniorleaders and I will say we had to
kind of have proof of concept.
We had to interview all of ourdeans first before and then
present back to them what weheard before they'd say, oh okay
, I'll do it Right.
So our first session they'rekind of like why are we here?
Like I have other things I canbe doing, but by the end of that
session they were like we lookforward to the next one, other
(14:30):
things I can be doing, but bythe end of that session they
were like we look forward to thenext one.
And so we've had we do aboutfive or six, uh, um, uh, an
academic year, um.
So I think a huge piece is ismaking sure people know that
they are, that they, that thathealing is necessary, that's a
human thing, that that it's okay, that it's okay to be
(14:52):
vulnerable, it's okay to bringour whole selves into these
spaces and then making sure wefollow up in ways that continue
to promote what we callpsychological safety, that it's
okay to be your whole self hereand it's not easy, but a lot of
it is around, you know being apossibility, model and modeling
what that looks like beingvulnerable, being honest, taking
(15:15):
the time to just pause andreflect.
I remember being in a meetingand someone shared that a very
beloved colleague had passedaway and then we just kept
talking and I just said, look,can we pause?
I want to honor that someonehas died.
Let's take a moment of silenceand share with me what you loved
about this person.
Let's just honor them.
And the group was soappreciative because they just
(15:38):
said we never take a moment andwe don't take a moment for
anything.
We focus on all the things thatcan go wrong, all the crisis.
I'm like well, are wecelebrating our wins?
Because the small wins is whatkeeps us moving forward when
we're in those moments of crisis.
So really, it's about balance.
We are humans at the end of theday, right?
So where's that balance?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, that's really beautiful and something that I
think just isn't really sort ofhonored or cherished in the
space as much as it should.
How has your perspectivechanged?
You talked a little bit aboutthe pandemic much as it should.
How has your perspectivechanged?
You talked a little bit aboutthe pandemic.
Has your perspective onleadership changed, sort of
post-pandemic, after goingeverything, and sort of stepping
into these new and differentroles?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yes, the question is how right Like that's something
to think through.
Question is how right Likethat's something to think
through.
Something that I noticed duringthe pandemic was the way people
approach leaders for answers,and oftentimes we forget when we
are also going through thetrauma or the difficult thing.
We don't have the answers, butwe're supposed to, so instead we
(16:46):
respond with like policy andwhen our constituents are really
looking for support, care, youknow.
And so a huge learning momentduring COVID was how do we again
pause and be vulnerable and sayI don't have the answers
because I'm going through thiswith you.
Can we work together to figurethis out?
(17:07):
Another thing that I thinkCOVID illuminated was how do we
find those pockets of expertisethat have nothing to do with our
title and our hierarchy butthat are germane to this moment?
And so we found ourselvesasking different kinds of people
for thought partnership that wemight not normally ask, and it
(17:29):
really shifted how hierarchieswork and like our perspective on
hierarchy and what does it meanto bring people to the table
because of who they are and whatthey can do, not because of
their title, and it just reallyopens up so much more
possibility, and I think it alsohelps people feel seen and
(17:50):
valued, and that's what you wantfrom the people you work with,
from your colleagues.
You want them to know thatthey're valued, that they're
moving in their purpose and thattheir purpose adds value.
I definitely learned to slowdown.
Life is short, and if we areconstantly in fight or flight
mode, constantly stressed andworried about the next crisis,
(18:12):
we're not doing a service toourselves or our institutions.
And so COVID really helped mekind of just slow down and just
deeply appreciate my life, thelives of those around me.
The work will always be there.
The work will always be there.
(18:45):
We don't have to show up fullyand 100% perfect every day.
Sometimes our personal best isthe worst in a moment, and
that's okay.
And so just know, what are we?
What are we seeing, not justhearing?
Cause sometimes people don'tspeak.
So you have to be reallyattentive to what people need.
Cause sometimes, when thetrauma is heavy and hard, we
don't talk, you know.
So how are we being attentiveto the things that aren't as
(19:06):
prominent and clear?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Those are.
Those are great insights.
You mentioned something priorabout your work with the deans
and the critical need you know,when you're doing this healing
work, of that proof of conceptright Of like demonstrating
those early wins, like helpingcreate that buy-in so people see
the value in what you're doing.
How do you approach people whoare skeptical about the
(19:32):
importance of like diversity andinclusion or your sort of
broader healing work and it'simportant in the workplace?
Can you talk through like howyou approach that and work
through to create some of thechange you're looking to make?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Absolutely.
I think one of the reasons wedon't get buy-in is because
people think they have to showup perfectly prepared and ready.
Especially with DEI and withcancel culture on the rise,
that's terrifying.
What if I make a mistake?
So a lot of people don't getinvolved, not because they're
skeptical or because they don'tcare, but because they're afraid
(20:08):
of messing up.
And so a huge piece of what I dois one of the questions I'll do
, like in an icebreaker is youknow, tell me about a time you
caused harm because of someone'ssocial identity.
What did you do to repair itand what were the outcomes?
And when people hear thesestories of these leaders royally
messing up, they're like oh,I'm not alone.
It flattens this notion that Ihave to show up right and
(20:32):
perfect.
I mean, I tell people I've beendoing this work for two decades
and I still make mistakes.
Mistakes are a part of theprocess.
The second thing is helpingpeople by showing what's
possible and knowing what tofocus on.
When we look at knowing what tofocus on, when we look at
(20:55):
persuasion tactics, we don't gofor the person who disagrees the
most.
We go for the person whodisagrees the least and we inch
them forward.
So I focus on people who areready for this work and want to
do this work, and less on peoplewho hate on the work, because
that's not a good use of my time.
I don't want to change thehearts and minds of people who
don't want me to exist.
I want to help grow the heartsand minds of people who are
(21:15):
willing to do the work, but justneed support, need resources,
need guidance.
So how we focus our energy iscritical when we're thinking
about you know, DEI work andsocial change.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Have you noticed any sort oflike tipping point in that work
right, meaning that like ifyou're changing hearts and minds
of people who were maybe lessskeptical or a little bit more
open or just need that nudging,does that in your experience
sort of help bring other peoplealong or sort of shift the
(21:50):
perspectives of people that area little bit sort of slower Like
?
Is there some kind of likeorganizational tipping point
that as you change hearts andminds with groups of people, get
more people on board?
Do you notice a sort of broaderchange in the culture, or
what's been your experience withthat?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I think the greatest way to create change is noticing
.
It's building trust, and youbuild trust by encircling people
with the right friends andcolleagues that they trust.
Who do you listen to?
Dean of deans?
(22:33):
Who's the vice chancellor ofvice chancellors?
Who's the chancellor ofchancellors that people come to
for advice?
You get that person on board.
They'll get everybody else onboard right?
So a lot of it is strategicallyfinding those voices that people
listen to, that people trust,until you become that voice
right.
So there are people who willlisten to me, no matter what I
tell them to do, because theyknow me, they value my expertise
, they trust me, they trust myintegrity.
(22:53):
They trust me, they trust myintegrity.
If I haven't built that yet, Ican't just throw people in there
right, just get in the ring andgo.
So a lot of it is networkingand building relationships and
being in community.
In prolonged terms, the moretime we spend in community with
folks, the more they get to knowus, the more they will put
those guards down.
In community with folks, themore they get to know us, the
(23:14):
more they will put those guardsdown.
Skepticism, I think, is healthy,because if you walk into
something fully believing it,who knows what you're learning?
Right, be skeptical.
I want you to question me andthen come around and say oh, I
get it, because now you'reembodying that lesson.
Right, be skeptical.
Tell me, I'm wrong.
Let's work through thistogether, yeah.
(23:38):
So I think that's a tippingpoint, trusting the process when
people begin to trust theprocess.
Magic can happen, right.
But how do we get them there?
And it's not a boom.
Let's go say the right thingand you'll have them.
No, it's about relationships,right.
It's about leading by influenceand being right in the
community.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I love that talking point be skeptical.
Let's work through thistogether.
That's such a beautifulsentiment.
With everything happening inthis space and we're seeing
shifting and changingdemographics in higher education
, we're seeing a really sort ofshrinking number of students
that are actually sort of going,you know, going into education
(24:17):
in general.
I think there is this a lot ofpolitical bifurcation, you know,
rising distrust, like also.
So there's a happening sort ofbroader cultural landscape.
Where do you feel the biggesttension in your work?
You're at this incredibleinstitution.
You're moving the dial on someimportant work.
Where are you feelingpersonally, like this is a pinch
(24:38):
.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I think the greatest moment of tension for me is the
space between crisis andimagination in the future.
Crisis and imagination in thefuture.
As long as we're in crisis mode, we're either dealing with the
current crisis or we areanticipating the next crisis,
(25:02):
and the stress in both of thosesituations is the same right,
and it's very stressful Cortisolon like 5,000.
There's a moment between thecurrent crisis and anticipating
the next crisis where we can say, hey, let's do some feed
forward, let's look to thefuture.
What can we do to prevent thesecrises and create systems that
(25:27):
withstand them in differentkinds of ways?
It's hard to imagine when youfeel constantly attacked,
undervalued, when you feel likeeverything's on fire, it's hard
to be optimistic or skeptical orsay, hey, let's think about
this thing.
What can we do differently?
And so for me, that's the sweetspot how do we shift from
(25:48):
crisis mode to futurity?
And we can't stay in either one.
But there's a balance therethat says let's work through
what is happening but also keepour eye on our North Star.
Where are we going and how arewe getting there?
And if you can get that balance, I think you're golden.
(26:09):
That balance is really hard.
It is really hard, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
It seems like such a tenuousthing, right Of like sort of
being able to hold the crisisand be aware of it but, at the
same time, knowing what'shappening on the horizon.
And how do you, as you put it,sort of putting your feet
forward and where to sort ofwhere to put that even right and
how to sort of do that, knowingthat you can't stay still, but,
yeah, holding the tensionbetween the two, I think is a
(26:38):
great way to think about that.
When you think about thechanges that you're trying to
make and how you assess those,how do you think about, like
using data or sort ofassessments sort of more broadly
, data or sort of assessmentssort of more broadly, you know,
I think, like anytime you'rethinking about like really sort
(26:59):
of human or sort of dynamicorganizational change I know
that can be a really sort oftricky thing.
How do you personally put alens on that?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
What you just said walked right out of my head.
What was the first you said?
I had the answer too, and thenit just went away.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Sorry, I'm about to talk to you out of the answer.
No, but really sort of thinkingabout you know data and
assessment?
Yeah, and moving institutionforward with all the layered
organizational dynamics.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, data is critical to this work.
It is critical to gettingpeople to understand how
important it is.
It's critical to assessing howwe do it.
I remember learning aboutassessment.
So apparently professors aren'ttaught how to profess right,
we're not taught how to teach.
You're like, hey, you're anexpert of this thing, go teach
it.
And so I didn't know thatbecause I was very lucky.
(27:47):
I went to Penn State and ChrisJohnston he was our.
He was a professor of rhetoricand he was our pedagogy teacher.
He taught us how to teach,taught us how to write syllabi,
taught us how to write exams andessay questions, and he taught
us assessment.
So I learned assessment in asafe space where I was not asked
to do it.
So my approach to assessment isvery butterflies and rainbows
(28:11):
and sunshine.
I love assessment because ithelps me and sunshine, I love
assessment because it helps mebe better.
I love evaluations because ithelps me grow, you know.
And so when we get to the placewhere we have to evaluate our
programs, I think a lot ofpeople get terrified because
they're like you're going totell me my program's bad.
You're going to, I'm going tolose my job.
You're going to, you know,disband the program, but really
it's about how can we make thisthe best version of this program
(28:33):
we can.
So I geek out on data.
Data is critical to everythingthat we do.
How do we know it's working?
And I think one of the problemswith our data now is we focus
too much, we are over-reliant onquantitative data.
So in DEI, a lot of timesyou're looking at graduation
rates, retention rates,enrollment rates, diversity
numbers, who's here, who's oncampus, who's not here, but
(28:55):
we're not asking what are youexperiencing?
So we do climate surveys, sure,but that's not really getting
to the nuance, the heart of whatit means to really flourish in
an institution of highereducation, whether you're staff,
faculty administrator, student,and so for me, the data is
critical and it's insufficient.
So how do we create betterpathways to get data that is
(29:18):
really robust, so we reallyunderstand the story of what's
happening and how to tell thatstory and how to change that
story?
So yeah, data is critical, it'scritical.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
You just pointed out some critical gaps there.
Do you find that if you'redoing a climate survey, are
there questions that you reallylike to ask or index on to
really feel or see if you'removing?
Because you're right, we'relooking at retention, first to
(29:53):
second year year, six year,graduation, like all of the same
kind of figures, and these havea disproportionate amount of
like impact on likeinstitutional levers and
policies and all of that kind ofstuff.
Um, how do you think about thatsort of data collection side to
sort of like hit those gaps?
Is it is surveys, is it likefocus groups, is it probably all
(30:15):
of the above?
How do you think about sort ofgetting those?
And then, like, what are thequestions that you're really
sort of trying to ask to get theheart of those?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
It absolutely is all of the above plus right?
So we have to know the numbers,because that tells a story
about systemic impact.
We have to do the surveysbecause it creates space to
understand what possibly mightbe happening.
But we also know that surveysrarely get 100% participation,
(30:49):
and often the loudest surveytakers are the most angry and so
or the loudest is the mosthappy.
We usually are missing themiddle, right.
So people who are pissed arelike I'm doing this survey, and
people who are like I love thisjob, I'm doing this survey.
So we get these reallypolarized answers Like
(31:10):
everything here is terrible,everything here is great.
There's this huge chunk in themiddle that's very quiet and
that's where the nuance is.
And so, yes to the data that'squantitative, yes to the survey
data that could be quantitativeand qualitative.
And I think we also have tobecome expert ethnographers,
people watchers, peoplelisteners.
(31:31):
Again, listen with your eyes.
What are you seeing?
That is indicating that maybethese two polarized constituents
don't speak for the wholepopulation, and so I think we
need to do better at listeningand ethnographic data collection
(31:52):
, because not everybody is goingto do the survey and all too
often our quantitative datatells just a snippet of the
story, right.
So that's yeah, and of courseI'm an ethnographer so I'm
biased.
You can take that with a grainof salt.
But yeah, we got to do betterat listening and getting the
stories that aren't so obvious.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, I love that insight and you just underscored
a big weakness of quantitativedata, so I really appreciate
that insight and it's going tobe better If you could wave a
magic wand and just fix anythingprofessionally.
(32:35):
Um, what do you think thatwould be?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
so, mike, I ask this question to people all the time.
It's rarely reflected back tome.
Thank you, so many things tolike, fix um.
I think right now, the firstthing I'd fix is like the honest
common denominator and,remembering that we are human,
(33:04):
cancel.
Culture made us feel likepeople have to be perfect.
Social media, you know we seethe highlight reel.
We don't see what's reallygoing on in people's lives.
So there's this really intenseglobal pressure to be on, to be
perfect, to not make mistakes,and it really strips us of our
(33:45):
humanity, and so I think a hugepiece of this sort of puzzle
that needs to be fixedaccountable.
But I think in 2024, that lookslike public punishment and I
don't think that that's healthyGuilt will only get so much
change.
Punishment will only get somuch change.
(34:05):
I don't punish my kids.
I talk to them about whatthey've done, how that impacted
people, and I hope that theyrespect, love and care about
themselves, each other, meenough to say I'm going to do
better, because that's anembodied lesson, that's
something that you can take withyou.
But if you say I'm going tospank you because you did this
thing well, the pain will stop.
I remember one time my kids,they were under 10.
(34:28):
And they just said, mom, whycan't you just spank us?
And I was like what you want meto hit you?
And they're like yeah.
Because this, like learningstuff, is harder than just hit
me.
The pain will go away.
And I was like, no, I'm not, Idon't hit kids.
So I feel that way for humanity, like I feel like so many of us
just forget we are human and soour differences become so
(34:54):
catastrophic and so big and sopolarizing.
So, like, what is the honestcommon denominator?
Where can we start?
What is the point of departurewhere we can all agree?
The first, the first Arabic UNadvisor I have to go find his
name.
I know Zahid is his first name.
(35:16):
I'll go find his name.
He came to speak at my formerinstitution and he shared with
us as someone who has advisedthe UN on global peace and
international conflict.
He said the only way we willmove forward is if we get to an
indisputable truth.
Until everybody understands thetruth, what is happening, we
(35:41):
can't move forward because we'lljust instead fight about who's
the most oppressed, who's thebiggest victim, who needs the
most attention, who's wrong,who's right.
We're just going back and forth, back and forth, if we can get
to an indisputable truth we canmove forward.
And there was another, pollyMurray, one of the first
non-binary folks I know who waslike in the scholarship world.
They said in order to heal, wemust tell the truth.
(36:04):
We have to tell the truth.
So I guess if I could snap myfingers, I would help us
understand that we are all humanand we're all suffering to some
degree.
Can we honor the suffering inothers who we might not agree
with, and then can we begin totell the truth.
So that's what I would want anindisputable truth that we can
(36:26):
all move forward.
The longer we have to argue thatracism still exists, the longer
we're not dismantling thesystem of racism, right?
We spend so much time trying toget folks to understand how
racism shows up, how sexismshows up, how xenophobia shows
up, how Islamophobia shows up.
It's hard to do that educationand fight these systems, right?
(36:48):
So can we just get to the truthwhere we see yes, this is here,
I'm not making this up, I amnot a snowflake, this is a
problem, you know.
So, yeah, that's probably whatI do, and I mean, of course, I
snap my fingers and end whitesupremacist, capitalist
patriarchy.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
That too.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
That'd be nice to yeah, as long as you're snapping
.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's it.
That's a really beautiful,beautiful, beautiful sentiment.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Um absolutely looking forward,like, what are you excited about
?
Like just to sort of end thepositive note, what are you
excited about?
What changes do you see comingdown the pike that get you
personally excited?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
um, that's a hard question right now.
Right, because there's there'sso many things that are daunting
and terrifying.
Um, oof, how to answer what amI excited about it?
Speaker 1 (37:44):
is.
It is a hard one, that's a hardone I probably shouldn't have
ended it on such a hard one, butit's such a beautiful sentiment
like we should again.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
So early I said feed forward, not feed forward
f-e-e-e.
We should all be feedingforward and you know feeding
back.
But it's maybe I can say, maybenot so much what I'm excited
about, what I'm grateful for umbecause it's hard to see so much
what I'm excited about but whatI'm grateful for, Because it's
(38:17):
hard to see the future when weare in the middle of so many
global conflicts and the amountof people who are dying in the
Congo, in Sudan, in Gaza.
It's hard to be like, oh, let'sbe optimistic.
And I do know that it's hard tobe like, oh, let's be
optimistic.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
And I do know that these conflicts, these wars,
these deaths are not sustainable.
They're not.
It has to stop at some point.
The question is when, andthat's the hard part.
When does the death toll numbermax out part, when does the
(39:00):
death toll number max out?
So I am grateful that war isnot sustainable.
I am grateful that there are somany people pushing for
humanitarian responses that arerooted in futurity, rooted in
love, rooted in care, rooted incompassion, rooted in like,
honoring difference.
There are so many people reallyfighting for change.
They are not in our governmentsnecessarily.
(39:25):
They're not leaders in thetraditional institutional sense.
They're everyday people who arepicking up the pieces.
I am grateful for that work andI'm also grateful that there
are folks who still create joyand beauty amidst the chaos,
(39:46):
because that's how we getthrough it.
People who are creatingbeautiful artwork about what's
happening.
That inspires us, you know.
That pushes us to see what'sgoing on differently.
Folks making music.
I watched the movie Wish withmy then three-year-old and
there's this segment of like.
(40:07):
There's like the revolutionsong, yeah, and I listen to it
often, even when the kid's notin the car or not at home, but
it's, it's that song.
It's called um, knowing what Iknow now and it's about these
kids, you know like figuring outhey, this leader sucks, we're
gonna take them down, but theway they sing it's just, oh,
(40:29):
it's like yeah you know it'slike, yeah, you know, hit the
ground running.
It's a beautiful song, and so Iam thankful for people who
create stuff like that amidstchaos and say no, we're going to
keep going.
And I'm thankful for sleep, youknow, and rest, you know.
Rest is resistance.
Trisha, hersey, let's go Likeremember to rest, because that
(40:51):
is also an act of resistance.
So, yeah, I am thankful to mycolleagues who persist.
I'm thankful to the children.
Gen alpha is a differentgeneration.
That's what I'm excited for inthe future.
There it is, we got there.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Gen alpha.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They're reversing cancel culture.
They believe in second chances.
They believe in free speech.
They don't believe in silencing.
Gen alpha is a differentgeneration and I am excited to
see what they're going to do.
I really am me too so yeah,that's what I'm excited we got
there that was a beautifulanswer.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
That was a.
I'm hitting that before we, uh,we go any further.
That was, that was wonderful.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com