January 23, 2025 • 46 mins
How do you lead a system with 7 campuses, serve students in urban and rural areas, and align higher ed with workforce needs—all while ensuring faculty and staff are thriving?
In this episode, Brendan Kelly, President of the Arkansas State University System, shares how he’s rethinking leadership in higher ed.
We discuss:
- Why alignment—between industry, state governments, and campuses—is the key to thriving in the 21st century.
- How ASU’s regional campuses are driving talent pipelines in Arkansas.
- Why Brendan is calling for a revolution in faculty roles, upskilling, and institutional communication.
This conversation is a must-listen for higher ed leaders navigating today’s challenges.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's a great pleasure to be here with Brendan Kelly.
Brendan, great to meet you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, it's a pleasure to be with you too.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Yeah, what are some of the biggest challenges of
leading Arkansas' universitysystem?
That?
Are maybe different than yourprevious work as president at
the University of West Georgia.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, that's a great question.
They are very different jobs.
You know, I've worked in systemsin multiple states, but when
you have the strategic focus ofthe best interests of the higher
education outcomes for thestate as a whole and the best
interest for the very uniqueindividual institutions that you
(00:45):
are supporting, it's differentthan being president of a
university campus, because youare in the details of everything
.
When you're on the universitycampus, I care very much about
the student experience and whenI was, in each of the instances
where I was president on acampus, I was very, very focused
(01:08):
on the end user consumer.
Now that focus hasn't changedfor me as a system head, but the
way I express it and the typesof actions that are taken to
positively impact the lives ofstudents from this vantage point
versus my previous one are justdifferent, and I'm getting used
(01:29):
to that.
Right now I'm about two monthsin, but I'm also staying very
focused on the fact that thoseare different jobs.
I've got very talentedchancellors who are the
executive heads of ourinstitutions and I'm trying to
find ways to make certain thatwe continue to support them and
empower them, but also ensurethat everybody is aligned on
(01:50):
what our desired strategicoutcomes are, and almost all of
those have the beginning of thefirst name and the last name of
a student attached to them.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, that's so fascinating, right?
What are some of thosechallenges that are different
once you get up?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
chain a little bit.
So we're we're one.
You're dealing much moreclosely with the expectations of
a board of trustees.
That board of trustees isappointed by the governor or
multiple governors, becausethere's seven year terms.
Um, my authority as presidentof the Arkansas State University
(02:28):
system is derived from thatboard, that board from the
governor, the governor from theconstitution of the state of
Arkansas.
So I am very attuned to thenuances that come along with
those relationships and the factthat the work that we're doing
in education is not just ourwork, it's work of the state and
(02:49):
of the people.
And I say that because inpublic higher ed sometimes we
miss that.
You know I've had a longprofessorial career.
I love working with studentsand we often use the term my
students and we often use theterm my students.
And we do that out of love andkindness and investment in the
lives of those individuals.
(03:11):
In the same moment they arecitizens of the state that we're
(03:40):
in.
They enhance the quality oflife of the state that we're in.
That we're in they enhance thequality of life of the state
that we're in.
Thinking about those issuesthat you know, if being a campus
president is a 30,000-foot view, this becomes a 60,000-foot
view and I think we all know theworld looks different.
You know when you take adifferent vantage point.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Really, really well said and a great segue, I think,
to the next question.
You've worked in a few systemswhere you've seen not just
enrollment South Carolina, westGeorgia, west Florida, you know
you saw some great enrollmentbut you're doing it in
institutions where thatenrollment growth is also
closely, you know, intertwinedwith regional and state
(04:22):
workforce needs.
How have those experiencesshaped how you're doing the
day-to-day work that you'redoing right now, where you're
working at that higher level?
How have those areas informedthat approach a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I couldn't do this job had I not had those jobs, do
this job had I not had thosejobs?
I will tell you so when I,whether we were at West Florida
or upstate or West Georgia,connecting the dots between an
individual's expectations andindustry's expectations, that's
(05:03):
the coin of the realm.
And I say that because I havemet a student who's come to
college at any of theuniversities that I've served,
who wasn't interested in goingand participating in the economy
and being successful and havinga career.
And one of my faculty membersat one of the institutions here
in Arkansas said it the otherday.
(05:25):
He said we have to stop talkingabout college or career and
start just accepting the factthat everybody's going to have a
career and college is going tobe one or two, three, four, five
stops along the way, right andit's feeding that career, career
(05:46):
.
So that was another dotconnected for me, because for me
I go.
When we lead an institution wehave to go and align ourselves
with superintendents andhospital presidents and leaders
in industry who are seeking theone thing that's going to feed
their businesses and that'stalent.
We produce talent and they goand employ that talent and we
have to make certain that ourexpectations are aligned.
(06:08):
When I was at South CarolinaUpstate, I learned something
really valuable.
I served on the board ofdirectors of the Spartanburg
academic movement and one of thethings that we were working on
as a community of leaders schooldistricts working right
alongside the university,working right alongside of
leaders of industry andcommunity organizations were
(06:30):
tackling things like third gradereading competency, because
third grade reading competencyinforms somebody's ability to go
to college and be successfuland we needed more college
graduates to support the economythat we had in the upstate of
South Carolina.
It was such a monumental momentfor me because when we started
(06:51):
talking about that, we weretaking a lot of actions and
interventions to go and effectpositive change on that front
and we're being very successful.
But I was sitting with the headof BMW North America, who was
also located in SpartanburgCounty, and at the time we were
having a conversation abouttalent pipelines and that same
(07:14):
third grade reading competencybecame critical to feeding their
business for years and years tocome with the type of talent
they need, for years and yearsto come with the type of talent
they need.
So when I came to this job, Iwent.
We have to start with alignmentbetween industry communities and
the institutions that we makepart of those communities.
(07:36):
And that type of conversationmakes it so that we can't be a
higher education educator whojust show up and say, oh, we're
going to teach the mostimportant parts of our interests
as a community of experts andyou're going to love it and then
you're going to be able to takeit out in the world.
We have to go and do a good bitof listening to understand
(07:58):
where the world's at, so that wecan take that expertise in each
of those disciplines and funnelit into a type of learning
that's going to translate intovalue in the broader economy.
All of those jobs I've justcontinued to learn more deeply
One, how to execute that workand how important executing that
(08:21):
work well is importantexecuting that work well is.
So I do view my job through thelens of aligning leaders around
common purpose and commondesired outcomes.
I hope that answers thatquestion well enough.
I'm sorry if that was tooverbose, but you just you're
talking about one of my favoritesubjects.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
That really yeah a lot.
Can you say that aligning pieceagain?
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
a scaffold so that our campus chancellors are
making certain that their teamsare aligned with producing a
type of learning that connectsthe students' capabilities and
increasing knowledge and abilityto learn with the types of
value-creating behaviors thatare going to be relevant to the
industries that they want to gointo.
It's aligning all of those dots.
(09:28):
It's a lot of relationshipbuilding, a lot of strategic
improvement, conversation and awillingness to listen, a
willingness to go to industry.
I've had a lot of conversationswith hospital presidents who've
become good friends, and someof that friendship is based on
the fact that we started ourrelationship with how can we be
(09:48):
a better partner to you?
So it's been a journey oflearning for me, but one that I
think helps us shape what highereducation is supposed to look
like for the 21st century.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, that's really powerful and I love that line of
expectations.
Yeah, that's really powerfuland I love that line of
expectations and priorities.
It's so brilliant.
With so many campuses spreadaround Arkansas and you've got
urban areas, you've got ruralareas, you've got input from the
state, how do you think aboutattracting and retaining the
type of talent that's going tosupport this sort of broader
(10:24):
mission and aligning all thetype of talent that's going to
support this sort of broadermission and aligning all of
these priorities right, becausethat's another massive alignment
pieces.
You have, like, so manydifferent kinds of campuses, so
many different types ofcommunities you're supporting,
yet you've got this sort ofcommon mission.
How do you think about thattalent management piece
connected to that?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
That's a great question.
I just finished a long tourvisiting all of our institutions
and every single one of ourcampuses, and that resulted in a
couple of months of me notsleeping in my own bed at home,
two consecutive nights.
My wife reminded me of that asI finished that tour on Friday.
(11:10):
Here's what I learned, though,because your question is a
pivotal one Faculty and staff inhigher education that's the
lifeblood for what we have tooffer in higher education are
that's the lifeblood for what wehave to offer.
In the same moment, we have torethink our expectations and the
(11:31):
framework that they're workingunder.
So first let's reframeexpectations.
When I went into my firstfaculty role, what was asked of
me is different than what isasked of a faculty member now.
You know the type ofconversation about alignment
with industry.
That was like a value add.
(11:52):
That was something I was reallyinterested in, even as a new
faculty member, but it wasn't amandate.
And now I believe we're in atime when that type of alignment
is where we start, not where wekind of seek to add value.
(12:13):
So the expectations for what afaculty member has to accomplish
that's changing, and so toomust the way faculty life is
arranged.
It's really important for us tobe open to rethinking faculty
(12:34):
life and staff life andrethinking the types of talent
we need and how we're creatingthe framework that they're
working in in ways that feedtheir own lives.
So let me give you this exampleExpectations for a faculty
(12:55):
member change and that can befrustrating to somebody who
signed up for one type of roleand the world ended up changing
and making it something a littledifferent, and we have to
understand that.
There's going to be a time tocreate alignment in there and
some retraining.
I believe very strongly thatit's important for us to set
(13:17):
clear expectations for talentbased on what we're trying to
accomplish.
I also don't believe thatanybody is entitled to do work
in education.
That is, maybe that's been, anexpectation in the past.
I believe it's an honor and aprivilege for us to be able to
be part of somebody else'slearning, and we have to
demonstrate our ability to learnalong the way and get better
(13:39):
along the way.
In the same moment, we have toinvest in faculty and staff life
to make sure that the qualityof life that comes along with
that is balanced against greatoutcomes.
We're going through a time ofrich transition on that front.
I've talked to thousands ofemployees over the last few
weeks and there are some thatare just passionate about their
(14:02):
role, but there are someobstacles in the structure of
their role.
There are others whereeverything's working
particularly well.
I want to pay attention to bothof those and go how can we get
to that second outcome foreverybody?
And we're working through aprocess of realignment right now
, and I don't think that'sunique to the ASU system.
I think that is something thatis indicative of higher
(14:25):
education and university lifeand college life across the
country as we go through a timeof reformation.
I mean, I'll say this Talent isthe most important thing that we
can get our hands on, and Idon't seek to believe that we
have to have a one size-allfaculty or staff assignment, but
(14:46):
that's the way most of highereducation has been built, and
one of the things that I'mlooking forward to continuing to
develop here in Arkansas is theopportunity to say you know,
maybe you can create value withone scaffold, right, and we can
call you a faculty member andsomebody else.
(15:06):
It's a different scaffold, bothcreate value, both meet our
needs, both serve students well,both serve the state well, but
they're just different.
And why can't we have 10 ofthose?
Because right now we really dosay faculty staff, two buckets,
instead of nuancing that to seeif we can't nurture people's
(15:27):
careers the way they want toexperience them, at the same
time that we can align that withthem serving the institution in
the way we need outcomes fromtheir talent to be produced.
It's a real time of change inour industry.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's a time of change and I couldn't agree more.
And that frame of realignment,I think, is so critical and so
important.
How do you think aboutupskilling within?
As you're sort of like this isthe end of sort of changing the
systems and we're moving to thisplace where you've got, you
know, very necessarily, likeindustry and community needs and
(16:04):
all of these things more sortof embedded in the sort of
infrastructure of the work thatyou're doing and you're creating
this sort of alignment ofpriorities.
So so critical right, Like howdo you rethink the sort of
realignment of upskilling andlike making sure your teams and
your talent have the skills thatreally sort of like get that
(16:25):
next generation up to par for,you know, for the work that
they're?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, I think when I say it out loud there'll be some
people who cringe.
But you know I have a lot ofattorneys who work for us.
They have to do continuingeducation credit.
We have accountants they haveto do continuing education
credit.
If you want to be a medicaldoctor, you have to do
continuing education right?
Every single one of these veryimportant roles in our
(16:53):
professional world require youto keep learning.
They don't ask you, hey, if youfeel like continuing to learn.
They require you to keeplearning.
When standards change, you haveto learn them.
When new technology comes out,you have to learn it, and we
haven't structured a lot of ourown workforce scaffolding around
(17:14):
those same expectations.
I think that's inevitable.
I think as new AI tools come onboard, we have to make certain
that we are mastering them.
As new knowledge becomesavailable, we have to make
(17:34):
certain that we are mastering it.
But that's not just kind ofvoluntary.
We also have to restructurefaculty and staff life around
continuing education.
You know we ask students everysingle day to come into class
and to come to campus and toenvelop themselves in an
(17:56):
experience where they get betterand more knowledgeable and more
confident every day.
So we expect you from eighto'clock in the morning to be
changed by eight o'clock atnight.
And if we are colleges anduniversities that have that
expectation for those that we'rein service to, we should have
that expectation for ourselvestoo, and that includes me.
(18:18):
I mean, I'm constantly tryingto make certain that I am
advancing my own learning andunderstanding of our own
business and the changes in theworld.
That's a lot of work, but it isnecessary work, and the board
of trustees that I serve.
They expect me to constantly belearning.
(18:39):
When they ask me about thenewest thing in higher education
in the 21st century, they don'texpect me to go.
You know, I just haven't hadthe time to figure it out.
I'm going to tell you that'llbe the shortest presidency in
the ASU system history.
We have to be asking more ofourselves so that we are
(19:01):
positioned to ask those samethings of students.
That will make a bettergraduate in the future.
It will make happier, richer,more experienced, more capable
employees, and our institutionswill get better as a result.
All I'm describing is nurturingtalent in the way it needs to
(19:21):
be nurtured.
Talent is like a garden, and itwill all go sour and be ruined
if we don't find ways to nurtureit.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well said.
Well said, I couldn't agree more.
How do you think about thischallenge of positioning right?
Because one thing that you hear, no matter where you sit in the
university system, whetheryou're at a community college or
a private four-year or whateverright it's like the marketplace
is so crowded and it's so noisy.
And I think one thing that canget overlooked is like you're
(19:54):
not just competing against likeother campuses that have a
similar value proposition thatkind of sounds similar.
You're competing against onlineinstitutions.
You're competing against thisanti-college thing.
You're competing against likeso many like the scope is just
incredibly broad and like yourlike average decent student in
(20:15):
high school is going to be likeso many types of institutions
that they're really sort of likelooking at as somebody that
oversees like such an array oflike different campuses in
different communities, how doyou think about this like
positioning question at thelevel that you sit on?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah Gosh, that's such a powerful question.
I wish more people would talkabout that subject.
You know, a marketplace iscrowded If you are paying more
attention to competitors thanyou are consumers.
I just I don't look at themarketplace as crowded because
and I say that because consumershave lots of options.
(20:57):
They have lots of options to goand buy coffee.
They have lots of options toget a mobile phone.
They have lots of options onplaces to eat.
Businesses that are successfulare the ones who stay totally
focused not on what theircompetitor is doing, but on how
(21:19):
their consumer is experiencing,whatever their product or
services.
So I'll go back to what I saidbefore If we want to make sure
that we're hitting the righttargets, let's constantly be
talking to the consumers we'reserving students and industry
and, in my case, employees aswell and the general public and
(21:43):
state government, because I wantto have the value conversation.
The value conversation isalways about what we're
producing and how does it alignwith what we need to be produced
?
And if we stay focused at eachof our institutions, which are
in totally different economies,they have totally different sets
of issues, and sometimes youcould look at our academic
(22:04):
portfolio.
You know we have a series oftwo-year institutions.
Well, if you look at some ofour technical programs, if I
take you up to ASU Mountain Home, you know where the best trout
fishing in the world is.
Well, we have a fishing boatbuilding program there.
It is one of one in the country.
It is an absolutely remarkableprogram and we put out the
(22:29):
talent that's needed for the sixbiggest boat builders in the
United States.
But we also have weldingprograms that are at each of our
campuses.
We have automotive technicianprograms at each of those
campuses, machining at many ofthem.
Why?
Because those are areas in eachof the local economies and
(22:51):
regional economies that need tobe continually fed.
They have a dearth of talent.
We have to keep feeding thattalent and the graduates from
those programs are remaining inthat region.
So it is really, reallyimportant for us to recognize
that and constantly evaluatewhat we're doing, why we're
(23:13):
doing it and who we're serving.
And for me, that just comes backto a constant conversation
about continuous improvement andanalysis of data to see if we
are achieving the outcomes that,programmatically, we should be
achieving based on the frameworkthat we've set up.
Achieving based on theframework that we've set up.
(23:40):
You know, for me, educationcomes down to the question of
value.
Is what we're offering,creating that for the person
that is paying for the privilegeof having it, and does the
value that we're creating forthat individual match the needs
that exist in the world?
If we stay focused on that, Idon't worry about a crowded
marketplace, because people aregoing to keep coming to the
(24:02):
Arkansas State University systemto help solve their talent
problems, and they'll do thatbecause we will.
As one of my friends andcolleagues in Georgia would
always say, we're going to startevery conversation with the
answer is yes.
Now what question were youasking?
I love that.
We'll figure out.
(24:23):
We'll just figure out how tomake that, how to make it all
work.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, how do you think of maybe a follow-up to
that?
How do you think aboutleveraging?
Data and technology to that,because you really doubled down
on this quarter.
It's creating economic impact.
It's kind of like generationalripple effect.
How do you think aboutleveraging data technology and
embedding those into your workto make sure you're?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
hitting those goals.
Oh, it's so critical.
I've spent so many weekstalking about shared systems and
technology solutions with somany hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of employees.
One let's accept on the frontend that we have technology that
(25:08):
we are not taking fulladvantage of.
I mean, we buy Cadillacsoftware systems to solve one.
You know, to get us from pointA to point B, they do 50 things,
but we have to do one.
So when we say leveragingtechnology, let's accept that
the inventors of Excel don'teven know all of the things that
(25:29):
Excel does and we do not takefull advantage of technology.
You know, apple just broughtout a new iOS system and it has
lots and lots of updates and ayear from now, most people who
have iPhones are going to knowhow to use a fraction of those
just because they didn't takeenough time to go and study this
(25:51):
system.
So first let's study thesystems that we have and make
sure we're taking advantage oftheir full capabilities and the
full capabilities of thosesystems to inform our work.
In the 1970s we didn't havemassive systems, technological
systems that were theunderpinnings for our work, but
in colleges and universitiestoday they are the underpinnings
(26:13):
for our work.
They are learning, managementsystems and constituent
management systems.
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat are going on from a
technological perspective thatreally do set in place the
foundation for most institutions, but let's get disciplined
about going and learning aboutthem and optimizing them and
(26:35):
removing duplication so that wecan remove costs.
That's a first piece.
Second is we're going to haveto build in more continuous
education for technology andsystems, just so that both
employees and students havethose integrated into their
lives and work.
Third, we're going to have tointegrate those into programs.
(26:57):
So if I'm teaching accountingnow and I'm going to get an
undergraduate degree inaccounting, there's going to be
some AI tools that are part ofthat.
There has to be, there has tobe, some cybersecurity training
and there's going to have to besome new technological tool
training, and that's true for ahost of different professions.
(27:18):
We are working through theprocess of integrating those
programmatically.
But I gave it to you in thatorder because if we can accept
the truth in terms of the factthat we're not taking full
advantage of the technology thatsits in front of us, because
we're not taking full advantageof the technology that sits in
front of us because we're nottaking time to learn how to use
(27:38):
it.
I mean, if I give you a hammerand a nail, any good carpenter
is going to show you how to holdthe nail and techniques for
hitting the hammer, so that youcan take that very base
technology and make it work.
Technology and make it work Well, why is it that we hand people
a laptop and you know they useit to check email but they don't
(28:04):
take the full advantage of howit could inform their work and
remind them of things and beable to manage tasks and
projects and then taking fulladvantage of just the capacity
that some of the base systems wehave built into every endpoint
technology has to offer?
We just haven't designed ourindustry around that and I think
(28:26):
we're going to have to andeventually it will work from us
to optimization, to integrationinto programs, and I believe
that over time that's just goingto become seamless, in the same
way that in K through 12, youknow, when I was a kid they
handed you a book and a notebookand a pencil and a ruler and
got mad at you if you've used acalculator.
(28:47):
And now every kid is handed aGoogle Chromebook the minute
they walk into school.
You know we just have to.
We're going through a growthprocess and a maturation process
, but it is absolutely criticalbecause that's foundation for
our work now.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It is such a challenge too, because I mean
interoperability between systems.
I mean, to your point, right,like you have this, you buy this
Cadillac that's got like can do50 different things and we're
leveraging it for one.
But the you know, the the truthis most places have eight
systems that are doing so manydifferent things, right?
So it's your point when you'reremoving duplication and
(29:23):
reducing costs and all thosekind of pieces, there's so much
not just upskilling, but there'salso a matter of how do these
systems really work together andwho has access to like what
data and like it becomes thislike very layered puzzle very,
very quickly.
Um, that that, I think, isreally really tricky for anybody
to wrap their head around, letalone somebody that is sort of
(29:45):
sitting, um, you know, in yourshoes, where it's just like oh
my gosh, we have all thesecampuses and all these sets of
things.
So I love those sort ofprinciples on how do you really
sort of tackle this, becauseit's a really sort of layered
challenge to get to.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It is.
You know I love the way yousaid it too because you have to
wrap your head around it.
But you have to start turningover every rock to wrap your
head around it, and that's whatwe're in the process of doing
right now.
It's literally, let's auditevery system that we have.
You know I want to see them allon paper so that we can get rid
of duplication, figure out howwe can streamline services and
(30:24):
make hundreds of people part ofthat conversation.
You know, these issues are notgoing to be solved by people in
positions like mine writing downa policy and issuing it to
everybody.
We're going to have to gothrough a metamorphosis so that
we can emerge as a butterflythat's technologically advanced
and optimized.
On the other side, that's sowell said Maybe let's talk about
(30:49):
this.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
If you could like one operational thing, if you just
wave one and fix it, what do youthink that would?
That would be.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Oh, one operational thing, wow, I would you know.
I suspect it would be.
I would go back to the having a, the framework for employees
that builds in training andadvancement, and I don't mean in
(31:19):
a compliance fashion.
You know, we do Title IXtraining on a regular basis and
like cybersecurity training sowe don't fall prey to phishing
scams, of phishing scams, butinstead of compliance.
(31:42):
If I could wave a wand and makeit so that our industry was
reliant on continuous learning,that is the first place I would
go.
It would be transformative.
And when I say that I mean notjust having people go into
training, but giving space inthe framework of every
employee's world for learningand application and optimization
(32:06):
and relearning, application andoptimization and making that a
very, very valuableaccomplishment in what they're
paid to do.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, yeah, and aligning that to their
priorities and their work.
I mean, that's such a big one.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I really love that answer.
How do you think about?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
maybe connecting to that.
You know, I haven't been askedthat question that way and
because you asked me thatquestion, I'm that that is going
to be a key focus movingforward.
You've inspired me on thatfront, uh, because I think it's.
I think it's so critical to ourfuture it's, it's such a, it's
such a good.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I love the way you frame that.
Um, how do you like maybeconnect into that, like how do
you get people to do less right?
because I think, like one thingthat we see in certain sort of
systems is you have people arestill focused on certain
outcomes around their role thatmaybe sort of are, at this point
, misaligned from you know thedirection that you're going.
(33:07):
How do you like create space to, like get them focused on the
things that really move theright levers in the right way?
And how do you like you seem tolike somebody that would?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Oh, so I've been.
I started operating withcontinuous improvement
environments even when I was avice president at West Florida.
I thought it was reallyimportant for us to get together
as teams of leaders and then,you know, broader employee teams
.
It's kind of cascading it downfor us to be talking about
strategy and ideas andimprovement.
(33:41):
But really focused onimprovement, I mean any great
team.
I was at the Arkansas StateUniversity football game on
Saturday against LouisianaMonroe.
We won, and I will guaranteeyou that Butch Jones didn't run
(34:02):
back to the locker room with theteam and go hey, fellas, we won
the game, everything is perfect.
So you know, go home, get somerest, I'll see you on Monday.
I mean, I will guarantee youthat they went back and they
celebrated for a few minutesthat win.
But then they started focusingon the things that didn't go
well and the things that wereareas of weakness, and they
(34:27):
really got focused on continuousimprovement, because that's
what great teams do.
So I went well, why doesn't agreat organization do that?
So I have built in in each ofmy leadership roles designated
time for that.
We create space for continuousimprovement and that's what we
call it.
We call it continuousimprovement because everything
(34:50):
is not going to be great and itis important for us to say
what's working, and if it'sworking, that's fantastic.
Now what's not working and ifit's not working, that's where
our focus should be.
That's where our focus shouldbe.
(35:24):
So we build in a lot of time toget better and I structure that
time.
I mean on a quarterly basis.
I've done for years, runcontinuous improvement
institutes inside theorganization that focus in on
what are we trying to achieveand how well are we achieving it
, and gets very honest aboutareas of weakness in our current
state.
Those things are really, reallyimportant.
So for me, getting the entireorganization into a mindset of
continuous improvement isprobably the number one issue.
Once we get people to be lessdefensive about weakness, then
we have a chance to really getbetter, and that's the situation
(35:47):
we're in right now.
I just had that conversationwith all of our executive
leaders and chancellors lastweek.
We're just getting to the timewhere I go.
Let's set aside our time to bevery intentional about working
on creating better outcomes.
It's just not something.
(36:07):
We're not comfortable talkingabout weakness most of the time.
You know especially people.
You know people who have PhDsas much as we are designed
around, you know, kind of beingcritics and learning massive
amounts about our disciplines.
You know, I don't know ifsomehow in that mix there was
(36:30):
this mentality of, well you know, once I've gone through my
dissertation defense andsomebody you know puts a hood
and some tams on me, you knowI'm all done getting better.
I mean, these are pretty baseprinciples.
It's just accepting the factthat we're always going to have
weakness.
So let's put our time andeffort there and getting people
(36:52):
really comfortable with that.
And if they're not comfortablewith that, maybe there's a
different type of organizationthat they want to go work for,
because this is how we have torun our institutions and it is
the mindset that I needeverybody to adopt for us to
achieve what we're all desiringI think it connects so closely
(37:13):
to this like concept of likejust failure and just seeing
failure is limiting.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
There is this like I think there's this like a risk
averse thing that we see here inour industry that is just not
as sort of prevalent in othersort of spaces.
So I love the reframing aroundcontinuous improvement and
getting people in the mindset toreally sort of do that and see
this with a broader path forward.
I think it's like so, socritical.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah, and I will say I will.
I invite myself into that aspresident of the system or as
president of a university.
I was the first one to pointout areas of weakness for myself
, so that everybody else wouldfeel invited to that
conversation.
(38:00):
Not a conversation just tocriticize me, right, but a
conversation where we can alljust accept the fact that that's
what human life is, that's whatprofessional life is.
We're going to have variableareas of weakness and strength,
and where are we going to putour time and attention?
You said it earlier.
(38:21):
You said how do you get peoplefocused on the work that matters
most, right On what's mostvital?
Let's start with and I've beenan evangelist for this.
I mean, if you ask any employeeat the University of West
Georgia, they will remind youhow often I said it Stop
emailing people.
Email is one of the mostinefficient forms of
(38:45):
communication, but people nowthink their job is email.
You have people who are sittingin offices next to each other
emailing back and forth, and Isaid you go and talk to people.
It's more efficient.
You're going to get threethings done instead of one.
It's going to take you a lotless time to transact.
Pick up a phone and callsomebody, have an in-person
(39:08):
conversation so that you havethe ability to create connection
at the same time that you'reaccomplishing work.
Email is for confirmation, notconversation, and I don't want
to see people burdened andsitting and doing a million
little things and killingthemselves and not creating
results.
So we can improve ourselves byjust being more intentional
(39:31):
about how we communicate witheach other.
The minute you send an email,you're going to give birth to
more emails.
So let's just start with howdid we hurt somebody else's life
and work by how we decided toproject ourselves to them?
If we just have a moreaudience-centric communication,
(39:54):
our organizations would be a lotbetter on the front end.
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think.
I mean I couldn't agree morewith what you just said.
There's so many problems withemail If you just move into this
place where you're trulyaccountable for the work that
you're doing and the five to sixKPIs that are really moving the
needle instantaneously, you getoff email.
Because you realize this is noteffective, this is not driving
(40:20):
results.
This is not effective.
This is not driving results.
This is not like but if you'rebut like it takes a level of
accountability and ownership tolike in the organizational
culture to really get there.
But as soon as you sort of dothat, you're like oh yeah, this
isn't moving the needle at all,this isn't doing anything for me
.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That's right.
That's right?
No, it's.
And I have a.
I had a vice president, a goodfriend, who always said you know
, if we really focus on the mostvital work, our stop doing list
is about to be longer than ourstart doing list, and that is a
(40:56):
key piece.
Maybe the most importantdecision you can make is what
you are not going to work on.
Well said.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Well said, well said, maybe as a place to wrap up,
because I know we're buttingagainst time here.
As you look at the broaderlandscape of change, that's sort
of happening.
What gets you excited?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
What gets me excited?
I mean, I'm going to tell you,it's the same exact thing that
got me excited when there was atwo in front of my age.
When you get a chance to workwith students and positively
affect their lives and I don'tmean generally positively affect
their lives, but affectmultiple dimensions of their
(41:39):
lives and help create the typeof career that they will be able
to enjoy that is thrilling work, Thrilling.
And anytime somebody goes ohwell, the students have changed.
No, no, let's look in themirror, folks, because I don't
(42:00):
think students haven't changedthat much.
I mean yes, because I don'tthink students haven't changed
that much.
I mean, yes, habits, and youknow, but all of that stuff is
formable, right, All of thebehaviors that create adults,
those are informed byexperiences in education that we
had during our formative years,and that includes university
(42:24):
education, college education.
That gets me excited.
If we just stay focused oncreating value for the end user,
consumer, that is mostimportant to our work.
And that value has to includepost-graduation outcomes.
It has to include alignmentwith industry, and the student
(42:46):
doesn't have to takeresponsibility for the alignment
with industry.
We are supposed to do that.
If we just stay focused on thatthat's thrilling.
I mean, on every single one ofthe campuses that I've been on,
every single one of our everycampus that I've visited over
the last seven or eight weeks,I've met with students.
(43:07):
I'm going to tell you, everysingle one of those
conversations that I walk awayfrom there is value.
There, there is great faith inwhat is to come in our
communities and our country,because you have a lot of really
bright people who are cravingthe opportunity to have us say
(43:29):
yes when they say just send mein, coach, I want to go and lead
, I want to go and learn.
I want to go and takeadvantages, I want the
internship.
Just show me how and I go.
I want to show you how.
You know.
Later today, later today, I'mgoing to have a conversation
with a wonderful professionalwho graduated in what?
(43:54):
2006?
She was a former student ofmine.
You know we have been connectedfor decades and I've got to
watch and help with chapters ofher career.
Doesn't that get you excited,the fact that you education can
play that type of role ininforming somebody's life, and
(44:17):
it doesn't have to stop justbecause you put on a graduation
robe and walk away, Just becauseyou put on a graduation robe
and walk away.
That gets me excited, becausethe core of education is
mentoring.
The core of education isinvestment in others.
The core of education hasn'tchanged and that is the magical
nexus between teacher andstudent.
And I still get up in themorning, get excited about that.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
That's a great place to end it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Thank you.
Thank you, this is great.
I appreciate the opportunity tochat.
It's a great pleasure to be here with Brendan Kelly.
Brendan, great to meet you.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, it's a pleasure to be with you too.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Yeah, what are some of the biggest challenges of
leading Arkansas' universitysystem?
That?
Are maybe different than yourprevious work as president at
the University of West Georgia.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, that's a great question.
They are very different jobs.
You know, I've worked in systemsin multiple states, but when
you have the strategic focus ofthe best interests of the higher
education outcomes for thestate as a whole and the best
interest for the very uniqueindividual institutions that you
(00:45):
are supporting, it's differentthan being president of a
university campus, because youare in the details of everything
.
When you're on the universitycampus, I care very much about
the student experience and whenI was, in each of the instances
where I was president on acampus, I was very, very focused
(01:08):
on the end user consumer.
Now that focus hasn't changedfor me as a system head, but the
way I express it and the typesof actions that are taken to
positively impact the lives ofstudents from this vantage point
versus my previous one are justdifferent, and I'm getting used
(01:29):
to that.
Right now I'm about two monthsin, but I'm also staying very
focused on the fact that thoseare different jobs.
I've got very talentedchancellors who are the
executive heads of ourinstitutions and I'm trying to
find ways to make certain thatwe continue to support them and
empower them, but also ensurethat everybody is aligned on
(01:50):
what our desired strategicoutcomes are, and almost all of
those have the beginning of thefirst name and the last name of
a student attached to them.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, that's so fascinating, right?
What are some of thosechallenges that are different
once you get up?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
chain a little bit.
So we're we're one.
You're dealing much moreclosely with the expectations of
a board of trustees.
That board of trustees isappointed by the governor or
multiple governors, becausethere's seven year terms.
Um, my authority as presidentof the Arkansas State University
(02:28):
system is derived from thatboard, that board from the
governor, the governor from theconstitution of the state of
Arkansas.
So I am very attuned to thenuances that come along with
those relationships and the factthat the work that we're doing
in education is not just ourwork, it's work of the state and
(02:49):
of the people.
And I say that because inpublic higher ed sometimes we
miss that.
You know I've had a longprofessorial career.
I love working with studentsand we often use the term my
students and we often use theterm my students.
And we do that out of love andkindness and investment in the
lives of those individuals.
(03:11):
In the same moment they arecitizens of the state that we're
(03:40):
in.
They enhance the quality oflife of the state that we're in.
That we're in they enhance thequality of life of the state
that we're in.
Thinking about those issuesthat you know, if being a campus
president is a 30,000-foot view, this becomes a 60,000-foot
view and I think we all know theworld looks different.
You know when you take adifferent vantage point.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Really, really well said and a great segue, I think,
to the next question.
You've worked in a few systemswhere you've seen not just
enrollment South Carolina, westGeorgia, west Florida, you know
you saw some great enrollmentbut you're doing it in
institutions where thatenrollment growth is also
closely, you know, intertwinedwith regional and state
(04:22):
workforce needs.
How have those experiencesshaped how you're doing the
day-to-day work that you'redoing right now, where you're
working at that higher level?
How have those areas informedthat approach a bit.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I couldn't do this job had I not had those jobs, do
this job had I not had thosejobs?
I will tell you so when I,whether we were at West Florida
or upstate or West Georgia,connecting the dots between an
individual's expectations andindustry's expectations, that's
(05:03):
the coin of the realm.
And I say that because I havemet a student who's come to
college at any of theuniversities that I've served,
who wasn't interested in goingand participating in the economy
and being successful and havinga career.
And one of my faculty membersat one of the institutions here
in Arkansas said it the otherday.
(05:25):
He said we have to stop talkingabout college or career and
start just accepting the factthat everybody's going to have a
career and college is going tobe one or two, three, four, five
stops along the way, right andit's feeding that career, career
(05:46):
.
So that was another dotconnected for me, because for me
I go.
When we lead an institution wehave to go and align ourselves
with superintendents andhospital presidents and leaders
in industry who are seeking theone thing that's going to feed
their businesses and that'stalent.
We produce talent and they goand employ that talent and we
have to make certain that ourexpectations are aligned.
(06:08):
When I was at South CarolinaUpstate, I learned something
really valuable.
I served on the board ofdirectors of the Spartanburg
academic movement and one of thethings that we were working on
as a community of leaders schooldistricts working right
alongside the university,working right alongside of
leaders of industry andcommunity organizations were
(06:30):
tackling things like third gradereading competency, because
third grade reading competencyinforms somebody's ability to go
to college and be successfuland we needed more college
graduates to support the economythat we had in the upstate of
South Carolina.
It was such a monumental momentfor me because when we started
(06:51):
talking about that, we weretaking a lot of actions and
interventions to go and effectpositive change on that front
and we're being very successful.
But I was sitting with the headof BMW North America, who was
also located in SpartanburgCounty, and at the time we were
having a conversation abouttalent pipelines and that same
(07:14):
third grade reading competencybecame critical to feeding their
business for years and years tocome with the type of talent
they need, for years and yearsto come with the type of talent
they need.
So when I came to this job, Iwent.
We have to start with alignmentbetween industry communities and
the institutions that we makepart of those communities.
(07:36):
And that type of conversationmakes it so that we can't be a
higher education educator whojust show up and say, oh, we're
going to teach the mostimportant parts of our interests
as a community of experts andyou're going to love it and then
you're going to be able to takeit out in the world.
We have to go and do a good bitof listening to understand
(07:58):
where the world's at, so that wecan take that expertise in each
of those disciplines and funnelit into a type of learning
that's going to translate intovalue in the broader economy.
All of those jobs I've justcontinued to learn more deeply
One, how to execute that workand how important executing that
(08:21):
work well is importantexecuting that work well is.
So I do view my job through thelens of aligning leaders around
common purpose and commondesired outcomes.
I hope that answers thatquestion well enough.
I'm sorry if that was tooverbose, but you just you're
talking about one of my favoritesubjects.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
That really yeah a lot.
Can you say that aligning pieceagain?
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
a scaffold so that our campus chancellors are
making certain that their teamsare aligned with producing a
type of learning that connectsthe students' capabilities and
increasing knowledge and abilityto learn with the types of
value-creating behaviors thatare going to be relevant to the
industries that they want to gointo.
It's aligning all of those dots.
(09:28):
It's a lot of relationshipbuilding, a lot of strategic
improvement, conversation and awillingness to listen, a
willingness to go to industry.
I've had a lot of conversationswith hospital presidents who've
become good friends, and someof that friendship is based on
the fact that we started ourrelationship with how can we be
(09:48):
a better partner to you?
So it's been a journey oflearning for me, but one that I
think helps us shape what highereducation is supposed to look
like for the 21st century.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, that's really powerful and I love that line of
expectations.
Yeah, that's really powerfuland I love that line of
expectations and priorities.
It's so brilliant.
With so many campuses spreadaround Arkansas and you've got
urban areas, you've got ruralareas, you've got input from the
state, how do you think aboutattracting and retaining the
type of talent that's going tosupport this sort of broader
(10:24):
mission and aligning all thetype of talent that's going to
support this sort of broadermission and aligning all of
these priorities right, becausethat's another massive alignment
pieces.
You have, like, so manydifferent kinds of campuses, so
many different types ofcommunities you're supporting,
yet you've got this sort ofcommon mission.
How do you think about thattalent management piece
connected to that?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
That's a great question.
I just finished a long tourvisiting all of our institutions
and every single one of ourcampuses, and that resulted in a
couple of months of me notsleeping in my own bed at home,
two consecutive nights.
My wife reminded me of that asI finished that tour on Friday.
(11:10):
Here's what I learned, though,because your question is a
pivotal one Faculty and staff inhigher education that's the
lifeblood for what we have tooffer in higher education are
that's the lifeblood for what wehave to offer.
In the same moment, we have torethink our expectations and the
(11:31):
framework that they're workingunder.
So first let's reframeexpectations.
When I went into my firstfaculty role, what was asked of
me is different than what isasked of a faculty member now.
You know the type ofconversation about alignment
with industry.
That was like a value add.
(11:52):
That was something I was reallyinterested in, even as a new
faculty member, but it wasn't amandate.
And now I believe we're in atime when that type of alignment
is where we start, not where wekind of seek to add value.
(12:13):
So the expectations for what afaculty member has to accomplish
that's changing, and so toomust the way faculty life is
arranged.
It's really important for us tobe open to rethinking faculty
(12:34):
life and staff life andrethinking the types of talent
we need and how we're creatingthe framework that they're
working in in ways that feedtheir own lives.
So let me give you this exampleExpectations for a faculty
(12:55):
member change and that can befrustrating to somebody who
signed up for one type of roleand the world ended up changing
and making it something a littledifferent, and we have to
understand that.
There's going to be a time tocreate alignment in there and
some retraining.
I believe very strongly thatit's important for us to set
(13:17):
clear expectations for talentbased on what we're trying to
accomplish.
I also don't believe thatanybody is entitled to do work
in education.
That is, maybe that's been, anexpectation in the past.
I believe it's an honor and aprivilege for us to be able to
be part of somebody else'slearning, and we have to
demonstrate our ability to learnalong the way and get better
(13:39):
along the way.
In the same moment, we have toinvest in faculty and staff life
to make sure that the qualityof life that comes along with
that is balanced against greatoutcomes.
We're going through a time ofrich transition on that front.
I've talked to thousands ofemployees over the last few
weeks and there are some thatare just passionate about their
(14:02):
role, but there are someobstacles in the structure of
their role.
There are others whereeverything's working
particularly well.
I want to pay attention to bothof those and go how can we get
to that second outcome foreverybody?
And we're working through aprocess of realignment right now
, and I don't think that'sunique to the ASU system.
I think that is something thatis indicative of higher
(14:25):
education and university lifeand college life across the
country as we go through a timeof reformation.
I mean, I'll say this Talent isthe most important thing that we
can get our hands on, and Idon't seek to believe that we
have to have a one size-allfaculty or staff assignment, but
(14:46):
that's the way most of highereducation has been built, and
one of the things that I'mlooking forward to continuing to
develop here in Arkansas is theopportunity to say you know,
maybe you can create value withone scaffold, right, and we can
call you a faculty member andsomebody else.
(15:06):
It's a different scaffold, bothcreate value, both meet our
needs, both serve students well,both serve the state well, but
they're just different.
And why can't we have 10 ofthose?
Because right now we really dosay faculty staff, two buckets,
instead of nuancing that to seeif we can't nurture people's
(15:27):
careers the way they want toexperience them, at the same
time that we can align that withthem serving the institution in
the way we need outcomes fromtheir talent to be produced.
It's a real time of change inour industry.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's a time of change and I couldn't agree more.
And that frame of realignment,I think, is so critical and so
important.
How do you think aboutupskilling within?
As you're sort of like this isthe end of sort of changing the
systems and we're moving to thisplace where you've got, you
know, very necessarily, likeindustry and community needs and
(16:04):
all of these things more sortof embedded in the sort of
infrastructure of the work thatyou're doing and you're creating
this sort of alignment ofpriorities.
So so critical right, Like howdo you rethink the sort of
realignment of upskilling andlike making sure your teams and
your talent have the skills thatreally sort of like get that
(16:25):
next generation up to par for,you know, for the work that
they're?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, I think when I say it out loud there'll be some
people who cringe.
But you know I have a lot ofattorneys who work for us.
They have to do continuingeducation credit.
We have accountants they haveto do continuing education
credit.
If you want to be a medicaldoctor, you have to do
continuing education right?
Every single one of these veryimportant roles in our
(16:53):
professional world require youto keep learning.
They don't ask you, hey, if youfeel like continuing to learn.
They require you to keeplearning.
When standards change, you haveto learn them.
When new technology comes out,you have to learn it, and we
haven't structured a lot of ourown workforce scaffolding around
(17:14):
those same expectations.
I think that's inevitable.
I think as new AI tools come onboard, we have to make certain
that we are mastering them.
As new knowledge becomesavailable, we have to make
(17:34):
certain that we are mastering it.
But that's not just kind ofvoluntary.
We also have to restructurefaculty and staff life around
continuing education.
You know we ask students everysingle day to come into class
and to come to campus and toenvelop themselves in an
(17:56):
experience where they get betterand more knowledgeable and more
confident every day.
So we expect you from eighto'clock in the morning to be
changed by eight o'clock atnight.
And if we are colleges anduniversities that have that
expectation for those that we'rein service to, we should have
that expectation for ourselvestoo, and that includes me.
(18:18):
I mean, I'm constantly tryingto make certain that I am
advancing my own learning andunderstanding of our own
business and the changes in theworld.
That's a lot of work, but it isnecessary work, and the board
of trustees that I serve.
They expect me to constantly belearning.
(18:39):
When they ask me about thenewest thing in higher education
in the 21st century, they don'texpect me to go.
You know, I just haven't hadthe time to figure it out.
I'm going to tell you that'llbe the shortest presidency in
the ASU system history.
We have to be asking more ofourselves so that we are
(19:01):
positioned to ask those samethings of students.
That will make a bettergraduate in the future.
It will make happier, richer,more experienced, more capable
employees, and our institutionswill get better as a result.
All I'm describing is nurturingtalent in the way it needs to
(19:21):
be nurtured.
Talent is like a garden, and itwill all go sour and be ruined
if we don't find ways to nurtureit.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well said.
Well said, I couldn't agree more.
How do you think about thischallenge of positioning right?
Because one thing that you hear, no matter where you sit in the
university system, whetheryou're at a community college or
a private four-year or whateverright it's like the marketplace
is so crowded and it's so noisy.
And I think one thing that canget overlooked is like you're
(19:54):
not just competing against likeother campuses that have a
similar value proposition thatkind of sounds similar.
You're competing against onlineinstitutions.
You're competing against thisanti-college thing.
You're competing against likeso many like the scope is just
incredibly broad and like yourlike average decent student in
(20:15):
high school is going to be likeso many types of institutions
that they're really sort of likelooking at as somebody that
oversees like such an array oflike different campuses in
different communities, how doyou think about this like
positioning question at thelevel that you sit on?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah Gosh, that's such a powerful question.
I wish more people would talkabout that subject.
You know, a marketplace iscrowded If you are paying more
attention to competitors thanyou are consumers.
I just I don't look at themarketplace as crowded because
and I say that because consumershave lots of options.
(20:57):
They have lots of options to goand buy coffee.
They have lots of options toget a mobile phone.
They have lots of options onplaces to eat.
Businesses that are successfulare the ones who stay totally
focused not on what theircompetitor is doing, but on how
(21:19):
their consumer is experiencing,whatever their product or
services.
So I'll go back to what I saidbefore If we want to make sure
that we're hitting the righttargets, let's constantly be
talking to the consumers we'reserving students and industry
and, in my case, employees aswell and the general public and
(21:43):
state government, because I wantto have the value conversation.
The value conversation isalways about what we're
producing and how does it alignwith what we need to be produced
?
And if we stay focused at eachof our institutions, which are
in totally different economies,they have totally different sets
of issues, and sometimes youcould look at our academic
(22:04):
portfolio.
You know we have a series oftwo-year institutions.
Well, if you look at some ofour technical programs, if I
take you up to ASU Mountain Home, you know where the best trout
fishing in the world is.
Well, we have a fishing boatbuilding program there.
It is one of one in the country.
It is an absolutely remarkableprogram and we put out the
(22:29):
talent that's needed for the sixbiggest boat builders in the
United States.
But we also have weldingprograms that are at each of our
campuses.
We have automotive technicianprograms at each of those
campuses, machining at many ofthem.
Why?
Because those are areas in eachof the local economies and
(22:51):
regional economies that need tobe continually fed.
They have a dearth of talent.
We have to keep feeding thattalent and the graduates from
those programs are remaining inthat region.
So it is really, reallyimportant for us to recognize
that and constantly evaluatewhat we're doing, why we're
(23:13):
doing it and who we're serving.
And for me, that just comes backto a constant conversation
about continuous improvement andanalysis of data to see if we
are achieving the outcomes that,programmatically, we should be
achieving based on the frameworkthat we've set up.
Achieving based on theframework that we've set up.
(23:40):
You know, for me, educationcomes down to the question of
value.
Is what we're offering,creating that for the person
that is paying for the privilegeof having it, and does the
value that we're creating forthat individual match the needs
that exist in the world?
If we stay focused on that, Idon't worry about a crowded
marketplace, because people aregoing to keep coming to the
(24:02):
Arkansas State University systemto help solve their talent
problems, and they'll do thatbecause we will.
As one of my friends andcolleagues in Georgia would
always say, we're going to startevery conversation with the
answer is yes.
Now what question were youasking?
I love that.
We'll figure out.
(24:23):
We'll just figure out how tomake that, how to make it all
work.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, how do you think of maybe a follow-up to
that?
How do you think aboutleveraging?
Data and technology to that,because you really doubled down
on this quarter.
It's creating economic impact.
It's kind of like generationalripple effect.
How do you think aboutleveraging data technology and
embedding those into your workto make sure you're?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
hitting those goals.
Oh, it's so critical.
I've spent so many weekstalking about shared systems and
technology solutions with somany hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of employees.
One let's accept on the frontend that we have technology that
(25:08):
we are not taking fulladvantage of.
I mean, we buy Cadillacsoftware systems to solve one.
You know, to get us from pointA to point B, they do 50 things,
but we have to do one.
So when we say leveragingtechnology, let's accept that
the inventors of Excel don'teven know all of the things that
(25:29):
Excel does and we do not takefull advantage of technology.
You know, apple just broughtout a new iOS system and it has
lots and lots of updates and ayear from now, most people who
have iPhones are going to knowhow to use a fraction of those
just because they didn't takeenough time to go and study this
(25:51):
system.
So first let's study thesystems that we have and make
sure we're taking advantage oftheir full capabilities and the
full capabilities of thosesystems to inform our work.
In the 1970s we didn't havemassive systems, technological
systems that were theunderpinnings for our work, but
in colleges and universitiestoday they are the underpinnings
(26:13):
for our work.
They are learning, managementsystems and constituent
management systems.
I mean there's a lot of thingsthat are going on from a
technological perspective thatreally do set in place the
foundation for most institutions, but let's get disciplined
about going and learning aboutthem and optimizing them and
(26:35):
removing duplication so that wecan remove costs.
That's a first piece.
Second is we're going to haveto build in more continuous
education for technology andsystems, just so that both
employees and students havethose integrated into their
lives and work.
Third, we're going to have tointegrate those into programs.
(26:57):
So if I'm teaching accountingnow and I'm going to get an
undergraduate degree inaccounting, there's going to be
some AI tools that are part ofthat.
There has to be, there has tobe, some cybersecurity training
and there's going to have to besome new technological tool
training, and that's true for ahost of different professions.
(27:18):
We are working through theprocess of integrating those
programmatically.
But I gave it to you in thatorder because if we can accept
the truth in terms of the factthat we're not taking full
advantage of the technology thatsits in front of us, because
we're not taking full advantageof the technology that sits in
front of us because we're nottaking time to learn how to use
(27:38):
it.
I mean, if I give you a hammerand a nail, any good carpenter
is going to show you how to holdthe nail and techniques for
hitting the hammer, so that youcan take that very base
technology and make it work.
Technology and make it work Well, why is it that we hand people
a laptop and you know they useit to check email but they don't
(28:04):
take the full advantage of howit could inform their work and
remind them of things and beable to manage tasks and
projects and then taking fulladvantage of just the capacity
that some of the base systems wehave built into every endpoint
technology has to offer?
We just haven't designed ourindustry around that and I think
(28:26):
we're going to have to andeventually it will work from us
to optimization, to integrationinto programs, and I believe
that over time that's just goingto become seamless, in the same
way that in K through 12, youknow, when I was a kid they
handed you a book and a notebookand a pencil and a ruler and
got mad at you if you've used acalculator.
(28:47):
And now every kid is handed aGoogle Chromebook the minute
they walk into school.
You know we just have to.
We're going through a growthprocess and a maturation process
, but it is absolutely criticalbecause that's foundation for
our work now.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
It is such a challenge too, because I mean
interoperability between systems.
I mean, to your point, right,like you have this, you buy this
Cadillac that's got like can do50 different things and we're
leveraging it for one.
But the you know, the the truthis most places have eight
systems that are doing so manydifferent things, right?
So it's your point when you'reremoving duplication and
(29:23):
reducing costs and all thosekind of pieces, there's so much
not just upskilling, but there'salso a matter of how do these
systems really work together andwho has access to like what
data and like it becomes thislike very layered puzzle very,
very quickly.
Um, that that, I think, isreally really tricky for anybody
to wrap their head around, letalone somebody that is sort of
(29:45):
sitting, um, you know, in yourshoes, where it's just like oh
my gosh, we have all thesecampuses and all these sets of
things.
So I love those sort ofprinciples on how do you really
sort of tackle this, becauseit's a really sort of layered
challenge to get to.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It is.
You know I love the way yousaid it too because you have to
wrap your head around it.
But you have to start turningover every rock to wrap your
head around it, and that's whatwe're in the process of doing
right now.
It's literally, let's auditevery system that we have.
You know I want to see them allon paper so that we can get rid
of duplication, figure out howwe can streamline services and
(30:24):
make hundreds of people part ofthat conversation.
You know, these issues are notgoing to be solved by people in
positions like mine writing downa policy and issuing it to
everybody.
We're going to have to gothrough a metamorphosis so that
we can emerge as a butterflythat's technologically advanced
and optimized.
On the other side, that's sowell said Maybe let's talk about
(30:49):
this.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
If you could like one operational thing, if you just
wave one and fix it, what do youthink that would?
That would be.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Oh, one operational thing, wow, I would you know.
I suspect it would be.
I would go back to the having a, the framework for employees
that builds in training andadvancement, and I don't mean in
(31:19):
a compliance fashion.
You know, we do Title IXtraining on a regular basis and
like cybersecurity training sowe don't fall prey to phishing
scams, of phishing scams, butinstead of compliance.
(31:42):
If I could wave a wand and makeit so that our industry was
reliant on continuous learning,that is the first place I would
go.
It would be transformative.
And when I say that I mean notjust having people go into
training, but giving space inthe framework of every
employee's world for learningand application and optimization
(32:06):
and relearning, application andoptimization and making that a
very, very valuableaccomplishment in what they're
paid to do.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, yeah, and aligning that to their
priorities and their work.
I mean, that's such a big one.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I really love that answer.
How do you think about?
Speaker 2 (32:26):
maybe connecting to that.
You know, I haven't been askedthat question that way and
because you asked me thatquestion, I'm that that is going
to be a key focus movingforward.
You've inspired me on thatfront, uh, because I think it's.
I think it's so critical to ourfuture it's, it's such a, it's
such a good.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
I love the way you frame that.
Um, how do you like maybeconnect into that, like how do
you get people to do less right?
because I think, like one thingthat we see in certain sort of
systems is you have people arestill focused on certain
outcomes around their role thatmaybe sort of are, at this point
, misaligned from you know thedirection that you're going.
(33:07):
How do you like create space to, like get them focused on the
things that really move theright levers in the right way?
And how do you like you seem tolike somebody that would?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Oh, so I've been.
I started operating withcontinuous improvement
environments even when I was avice president at West Florida.
I thought it was reallyimportant for us to get together
as teams of leaders and then,you know, broader employee teams
.
It's kind of cascading it downfor us to be talking about
strategy and ideas andimprovement.
(33:41):
But really focused onimprovement, I mean any great
team.
I was at the Arkansas StateUniversity football game on
Saturday against LouisianaMonroe.
We won, and I will guaranteeyou that Butch Jones didn't run
(34:02):
back to the locker room with theteam and go hey, fellas, we won
the game, everything is perfect.
So you know, go home, get somerest, I'll see you on Monday.
I mean, I will guarantee youthat they went back and they
celebrated for a few minutesthat win.
But then they started focusingon the things that didn't go
well and the things that wereareas of weakness, and they
(34:27):
really got focused on continuousimprovement, because that's
what great teams do.
So I went well, why doesn't agreat organization do that?
So I have built in in each ofmy leadership roles designated
time for that.
We create space for continuousimprovement and that's what we
call it.
We call it continuousimprovement because everything
(34:50):
is not going to be great and itis important for us to say
what's working, and if it'sworking, that's fantastic.
Now what's not working and ifit's not working, that's where
our focus should be.
That's where our focus shouldbe.
(35:24):
So we build in a lot of time toget better and I structure that
time.
I mean on a quarterly basis.
I've done for years, runcontinuous improvement
institutes inside theorganization that focus in on
what are we trying to achieveand how well are we achieving it
, and gets very honest aboutareas of weakness in our current
state.
Those things are really, reallyimportant.
So for me, getting the entireorganization into a mindset of
continuous improvement isprobably the number one issue.
Once we get people to be lessdefensive about weakness, then
we have a chance to really getbetter, and that's the situation
(35:47):
we're in right now.
I just had that conversationwith all of our executive
leaders and chancellors lastweek.
We're just getting to the timewhere I go.
Let's set aside our time to bevery intentional about working
on creating better outcomes.
It's just not something.
(36:07):
We're not comfortable talkingabout weakness most of the time.
You know especially people.
You know people who have PhDsas much as we are designed
around, you know, kind of beingcritics and learning massive
amounts about our disciplines.
You know, I don't know ifsomehow in that mix there was
(36:30):
this mentality of, well you know, once I've gone through my
dissertation defense andsomebody you know puts a hood
and some tams on me, you knowI'm all done getting better.
I mean, these are pretty baseprinciples.
It's just accepting the factthat we're always going to have
weakness.
So let's put our time andeffort there and getting people
(36:52):
really comfortable with that.
And if they're not comfortablewith that, maybe there's a
different type of organizationthat they want to go work for,
because this is how we have torun our institutions and it is
the mindset that I needeverybody to adopt for us to
achieve what we're all desiringI think it connects so closely
(37:13):
to this like concept of likejust failure and just seeing
failure is limiting.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
There is this like I think there's this like a risk
averse thing that we see here inour industry that is just not
as sort of prevalent in othersort of spaces.
So I love the reframing aroundcontinuous improvement and
getting people in the mindset toreally sort of do that and see
this with a broader path forward.
I think it's like so, socritical.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah, and I will say I will.
I invite myself into that aspresident of the system or as
president of a university.
I was the first one to pointout areas of weakness for myself
, so that everybody else wouldfeel invited to that
conversation.
(38:00):
Not a conversation just tocriticize me, right, but a
conversation where we can alljust accept the fact that that's
what human life is, that's whatprofessional life is.
We're going to have variableareas of weakness and strength,
and where are we going to putour time and attention?
You said it earlier.
(38:21):
You said how do you get peoplefocused on the work that matters
most, right On what's mostvital?
Let's start with and I've beenan evangelist for this.
I mean, if you ask any employeeat the University of West
Georgia, they will remind youhow often I said it Stop
emailing people.
Email is one of the mostinefficient forms of
(38:45):
communication, but people nowthink their job is email.
You have people who are sittingin offices next to each other
emailing back and forth, and Isaid you go and talk to people.
It's more efficient.
You're going to get threethings done instead of one.
It's going to take you a lotless time to transact.
Pick up a phone and callsomebody, have an in-person
(39:08):
conversation so that you havethe ability to create connection
at the same time that you'reaccomplishing work.
Email is for confirmation, notconversation, and I don't want
to see people burdened andsitting and doing a million
little things and killingthemselves and not creating
results.
So we can improve ourselves byjust being more intentional
(39:31):
about how we communicate witheach other.
The minute you send an email,you're going to give birth to
more emails.
So let's just start with howdid we hurt somebody else's life
and work by how we decided toproject ourselves to them?
If we just have a moreaudience-centric communication,
(39:54):
our organizations would be a lotbetter on the front end.
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I think.
I mean I couldn't agree morewith what you just said.
There's so many problems withemail If you just move into this
place where you're trulyaccountable for the work that
you're doing and the five to sixKPIs that are really moving the
needle instantaneously, you getoff email.
Because you realize this is noteffective, this is not driving
(40:20):
results.
This is not effective.
This is not driving results.
This is not like but if you'rebut like it takes a level of
accountability and ownership tolike in the organizational
culture to really get there.
But as soon as you sort of dothat, you're like oh yeah, this
isn't moving the needle at all,this isn't doing anything for me
.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That's right.
That's right?
No, it's.
And I have a.
I had a vice president, a goodfriend, who always said you know
, if we really focus on the mostvital work, our stop doing list
is about to be longer than ourstart doing list, and that is a
(40:56):
key piece.
Maybe the most importantdecision you can make is what
you are not going to work on.
Well said.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Well said, well said, maybe as a place to wrap up,
because I know we're buttingagainst time here.
As you look at the broaderlandscape of change, that's sort
of happening.
What gets you excited?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
What gets me excited?
I mean, I'm going to tell you,it's the same exact thing that
got me excited when there was atwo in front of my age.
When you get a chance to workwith students and positively
affect their lives and I don'tmean generally positively affect
their lives, but affectmultiple dimensions of their
(41:39):
lives and help create the typeof career that they will be able
to enjoy that is thrilling work, Thrilling.
And anytime somebody goes ohwell, the students have changed.
No, no, let's look in themirror, folks, because I don't
(42:00):
think students haven't changedthat much.
I mean yes, because I don'tthink students haven't changed
that much.
I mean, yes, habits, and youknow, but all of that stuff is
formable, right, All of thebehaviors that create adults,
those are informed byexperiences in education that we
had during our formative years,and that includes university
(42:24):
education, college education.
That gets me excited.
If we just stay focused oncreating value for the end user,
consumer, that is mostimportant to our work.
And that value has to includepost-graduation outcomes.
It has to include alignmentwith industry, and the student
(42:46):
doesn't have to takeresponsibility for the alignment
with industry.
We are supposed to do that.
If we just stay focused on thatthat's thrilling.
I mean, on every single one ofthe campuses that I've been on,
every single one of our everycampus that I've visited over
the last seven or eight weeks,I've met with students.
(43:07):
I'm going to tell you, everysingle one of those
conversations that I walk awayfrom there is value.
There, there is great faith inwhat is to come in our
communities and our country,because you have a lot of really
bright people who are cravingthe opportunity to have us say
(43:29):
yes when they say just send mein, coach, I want to go and lead
, I want to go and learn.
I want to go and takeadvantages, I want the
internship.
Just show me how and I go.
I want to show you how.
You know.
Later today, later today, I'mgoing to have a conversation
with a wonderful professionalwho graduated in what?
(43:54):
2006?
She was a former student ofmine.
You know we have been connectedfor decades and I've got to
watch and help with chapters ofher career.
Doesn't that get you excited,the fact that you education can
play that type of role ininforming somebody's life, and
(44:17):
it doesn't have to stop justbecause you put on a graduation
robe and walk away, Just becauseyou put on a graduation robe
and walk away.
That gets me excited, becausethe core of education is
mentoring.
The core of education isinvestment in others.
The core of education hasn'tchanged and that is the magical
nexus between teacher andstudent.
And I still get up in themorning, get excited about that.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
That's a great place to end it.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Thank you.
Thank you, this is great.
I appreciate the opportunity tochat.
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