January 2, 2025 • 49 mins
What if a career in the military could transition into academia? Join us as we explore this fascinating journey with our guest, a former US Army officer who now leads as a college president. This episode promises insights into how adaptability and leadership can forge new paths in personal and professional growth. We also tackle the pressures young men face today, such as the rapid pace of technological change that can lead to anxiety. Discover strategies for holistic well-being that address the physical, mental, spiritual, and nutritional aspects of life to effectively manage these modern challenges.
Our conversation takes a closer look at the University of North Georgia, a unique institution with a dual identity as both a regional university and the Military College of Georgia. We shine a light on its mission to produce second lieutenants for the U.S. Army while providing a diverse array of educational programs. Learn about the ambitious expansion plans for the Corps of Cadets and how the university nurtures a service-oriented community where students from diverse backgrounds excel. This chapter showcases the dynamic and inclusive environment at UNG, and the role it plays in shaping tomorrow's leaders, whether in military, business, or healthcare fields.
Navigating the future landscape of higher education with a military focus presents both challenges and opportunities. We engage in a deep discussion about the evolving value proposition of higher education, emphasizing the need for adaptability in a technologically connected world. This episode underscores the importance of teaching students not just specific skills, but the ability to learn and adapt. We reflect on the urgency of decision-making in today's fast-paced environment and the crucial balance between time and strategic thought, all while staying committed to the mission of the University of North Georgia.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, mike, thanks for being with me.
I would just love to know howdid you go from being working in
infantry signal, nuclear andcounterproliferation officer in
the US Army to a collegepresident?
I come from an Army family andNavy family myself, so I'm
really curious how you made thistransition.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question, Mike,
and if I had a recipe for it, Iwould probably not be doing this
.
What I would say is this, and Ithink this is part of where we
are in higher education, I havealways felt like and I put this
(00:49):
for everyone that we're createdfor purpose, our journey through
life continues to equip us andwe're walking toward that
purpose every day,professionally, in our families
and in all of our encounters.
And so how did I get here?
Was I was somebody who wantedto be an astronaut, serve in the
(01:10):
Air Force, be a fighter pilot.
As you can tell, none of thathappened and today I sit before
you where I believe I'm in mypurpose, getting to lead an
amazing university.
And so all of it is a journey,and I believe it speaks volumes
(01:34):
to where we are in highereducation today.
A lot of cool experiences.
I had some really cool jobs.
I got to do a lot of veryinteresting things, from, you
know, firing machine guns for aliving to jumping out of
airplanes, to working on somemajor research and development
(01:57):
programs in laboratories, toleading, you know, one of the
one of the most prominent thebusiness of one of the most
prominent research universitieson the globe, to now doing this.
So, and all of it is, you know,it has nothing to do with my
degree, my major.
It has everything to do withthe ability to adapt, to learn,
(02:20):
to lead and to be able tocontinue that, that journey and
that walk towards purpose.
So there's, like I said, mike,if I had a recipe, I would
bottle it and sell it andprobably do pretty well, but I
really don't.
But the recipe is what I justoutlined and I think that's the
so what of where we are inhigher ed today is.
These are the dynamics thatwe're operating in.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm really glad you brought up the purpose piece of
it.
I find just sort of looking atdata, particularly the data
around young men.
So many young men don't havepurpose right now.
And we see it in so manydifferent facets, but you know
there are a lot of young menwith a disability or they're
spending lots of time on screensfocused in different areas.
(03:07):
All of that I think it's fromsocietal things, potentially
sort of traveling when you lookat how you've reverse engineered
purpose for yourself, findinghow to see this gap towards that
.
What are some of the way,markers or things that you try
to put into your work, your G,to make students find that place
(03:29):
?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I love the question.
It's the perfect question forthe moment we're in and I think
it's the so what and we see ithere, by the way, just as an
aside our female, our womenstudents here are just thriving
in every dimension and even atscale.
(03:54):
I mean we have many more womenacross our enrollment than we do
men, and you see it anecdotallyjust walking around, you see it
at commencements, you see itacross the board and it's real.
And there's a lot of discussionright now about this and I
(04:18):
believe that I'm being called inthe role I serve, to be a part
of the solution for this.
I think the way markers.
Well, let me just here's mythesis on why we are where we
are today, and I think most ofit is technology, and there's
(04:39):
been a lot of work done, whetherit's McGowan and Shipley,
whether it's Deloitte, worldEconomic Forum.
A lot of people are working onthis now and talking about the
pieces of it, and I've beenreally trying to collate it all
and trying to understand it.
Technology has grown at such arate over the last 60 to 70
(05:00):
years than it has at any time inthe history of humanity, 70
years than it has at any time inthe history of humanity, and
humans are just not able to keepup with it.
And what we're finding is is,you know and this has been
written about and I believe thisto be true the challenge with
this information age isn't thetechnology itself, it's the
compression of time.
And so today, you know and alot of it are these things right
(05:25):
here, you know, that that wephysically have glued to our
bodies.
You know, there is such anexpectation on humans, and
especially young people, to haveinstant decision making,
continuously, at every moment,every day, always, and you hear
(05:48):
this word pop up all the time.
And I'm going to get to yourquestion, mike, but I have to
talk about this this isimportant.
We hear this word all the timeanxious, anxious.
We hear it all the time and Ihave four amazing children who
are in this generation as well,and I hear it from my kids, I
hear it from their friends, Ihear it from my 20,000 kids that
(06:09):
I get to be a part of here atthe university.
Um, and you never heard thatmic when you and I grew up.
Because you didn't have to,because you know, back in those
days you picked up the phone,you went like this you know,
I'll never forget the phone inmy grandmother's kitchen and you
(06:29):
would call somebody and if theydidn't answer, it was OK, you
just, they're not home, they'renot whatever.
I mean, they could be outsidein the bathroom, wherever, and
it was all, everybody's finewith that, everybody's fine with
(06:58):
that.
Today, there is an expectationin our society that if you don't
instantly have a response towhatever this thing is feeding
you, you know you've missed out,you're lost, you're not good
enough, it's all of it.
I also think people notrealizing the value of all the
aspects of how the human bodyperforms it's not just physical,
but it's physical, mental,spiritual, sleep, nutrition and
the brain and how they all worktogether.
(07:19):
And so I think you see this inthe way we eat, the way we don't
sleep anymore.
It's just all of this, mike.
And if you put all this in theway we eat, the way we don't
sleep anymore, it's just all ofthis, mike.
And if you put all this in themiddle, that's what's going on
in this generation today.
And to your point specifically,our young men are in front of
screens.
They're not engaged, they'renot out, doing the things that
(07:47):
you know we grew up doingclimbing trees and swinging from
ropes.
And I mean, you know why did Ilove the army?
It's because it was like I waswhen I was a kid.
I was an athlete, I was a, youknow, I hunted, I fished with my
, you know, with my family.
You know it was all thesethings.
And so I think that's why weare where we are.
And you know, as I talk aboutwaypoints, it's bringing
(08:09):
students back to those places,right?
You know, if I do a 180 and Ilook back on my 50 plus years,
it is like this man, it is allover the place.
I mean, I've been all over theplace in the breadcrumbs, though
light up like beacons, andthere are moments along the way
that equipped me for thispurpose that I believe I'm in.
Finally, by the way, I thinkit's full-hearty for us, as
(08:34):
higher education leaders, totalk about what do you want to
be when you grow up?
What do you want your major tobe?
What do you want?
That is full hearted, becauseI'm in my 50s and I'm still
working on that.
You know, yeah, I've done a lotof things.
I've retired from one career,I've moved on to another, I've
worked in a bunch of differentplaces, but the bottom line is
(08:55):
it's those waypoints, how youequip yourself for a purpose,
and I believe it's all.
It is all about not justteaching people how to think
analytical thinking, creativethinking all that is key and
it's critical.
It's teaching them about allaspects of being a human, and so
it's leadership, it'sperformance across all of those
(09:20):
domains that I mentioned, andthat's what I try to talk to our
students about in our strategy.
I literally had a leadershipmeeting yesterday.
We've been here 17 months,it'll be 17 months on Friday and
for the first time, we got allof our senior, most leaders
about 100 people in a room, andso all the people who directly
(09:41):
report under me, under theprovost, under all the different
folks and then the next leveldown.
And I'm telling you, man, itwas a great time of just talking
about this and we all feel thisand it's emotional because we
are all vested in this.
You know, what people don'trealize is is that higher
(10:02):
education people are passionate,is that higher education people
are passionate, and sometimesthey're passionate, and that
falls in different categories ofpassion, but they're passionate
about what they do.
And what we're trying to bepassionate about is we're not
trying to fall into anycategories where we will be
characterized.
We don't want to have aclassification placed upon us.
(10:22):
We want to be here to serveevery student we have an
opportunity to touch and we wantto change their perspective.
And that's what I saw yesterday, mike.
I saw this coming together ofall of our team and we're
teammates.
This is boys in the boat.
We're all in the boat.
We're grabbing an oar and we'rerowing and we're trying to do
(10:43):
it together and we really wantto attack this.
Yes, we have to prepare ourstudents to be able to navigate
this economy, but I would argue,I mean, you're looking at
somebody who has a degree inaerospace engineering, who was a
chief business officer, right?
I mean, come on, you know, butthat didn't matter.
That didn't matter because welive in a generation of learning
(11:06):
to learn and being adaptive andcreating value through that.
And, by the way, that's all inShiffley and McGowan's work, and
I love the way they put it alltogether.
So that's what I would say,mike, and that's what I would
offer.
I know that was a long answerto a short question, offer.
I know that was a long answerto a short question, but the
bottom line is this I think wehave to come back, focus on the
(11:28):
human, focus on the human in alldimensions, teaching them how
to think and then how to be ableto operate in this disruptive,
compressed environment.
And it's only going to getfaster.
Mark my words, mike.
10 years from now, peoplearen't going to recognize the
dynamics we're operating in.
(11:48):
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I think what you said there was brilliant.
You know, learning to learn,adapting, holistic development,
I mean all of these pieces arereally connected and you know
you could argue very easilythey're increasingly important.
Such a disconnect that ismoving, it's easy to sort of
lose your brains about whatyou're doing.
(12:12):
It's very sort of disruptivefor primitive brains which were
built to hunt and survive in avery different world.
Um, what are some of themisconceptions around running a
military institution and howthat differs from running a
traditional institution?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I appreciate it and I'mlaughing with you because you're
welcome to my world.
You're very perceptive, myfriend.
You're welcome to my world.
You're very perceptive, myfriend.
So here's the deal.
The University of North Georgia151 years and we have gone
through a lot of change, justlike all organizations, right.
(12:56):
And so we are a legacy ofmultiple institutions.
We were consolidated by ouruniversity system about 11 years
ago and today we stand as auniversity across five campuses
serving nearly just under 20,000students.
(13:17):
And we also serve as theMilitary College of Georgia.
So we are designated in GeorgiaState Code as the Military
College of Georgia.
We have been since 1980.
And we are also one of the sixTitle X senior military colleges
, so we are also designated infederal law as a senior military
college.
(13:37):
And, incidentally, we are theArmy Senior Military College.
We're the only all-Army.
So we do one thing here we makesecond lieutenants for the
United States Army.
Of course I'm a little biasedby that, since I served a whole
career in the Army, but that'swhat we do here.
(14:02):
The other thing is so our Corpsof Cadets today, mike, stands
at about 700.
And we have an ambitious goaland I encourage folks to check
out what we're doing.
It's all on our web and on ourcontent.
We're delivering the core ofthe future.
We're going to grow the core to1,000.
And that's the sweet spot.
We feel like we can serve theArmy best and we've had great
conversations with the mostsenior leaders of the United
States Army, with the mostsenior leaders of the United
(14:23):
States Army, you know,harnessing this vision and we're
working on that together.
But notice what I said even whenwe're at 1,000, we still serve
another nearly 19,000 students,and so this is a really
fascinating place, mike.
It is, and I love being here.
(14:43):
By the way, I am so privilegedto be here and be on this team
and be a part of the legacy ofthis place.
We have produced 65 generalofficers.
We have 41 living generalofficers today.
We have 21 serving brigade orhigher level commanders in our
army.
I mean this place is off thecharts.
(15:03):
I mean we're at a scale thatWest Point's at per capita.
That's what we do here and alot of people don't know about
North Georgia and we're workinghard to continue to tell this
story.
But we also serve nearly 19,000students.
That are just you know, mikeand Sally, you know, they're
just regular students, most ofthem kids fresh out of high
(15:26):
school, some of them adultlearners, some of them in
graduate school, and they'rehere to, to, to equip themselves
for that purpose that I wastalking about, you know, in
degree programs ranging fromeducation to health care.
So we are a traditional regionaltype university model, but
we're different.
There's no other school likethis Five campuses.
(15:49):
We have this huge, you know.
You come here to Dahlonega,which is one of our larger
campuses.
You're at the Military Collegeof Georgia, you go to our
Gainesville Georgia campus,which is about an hour as I'm
sitting here, an hour east ofwhere I'm sitting, or southeast.
It is a totally different campus, it's a totally different
(16:10):
community, and so the unifyingthread, though, is this thread
of service.
It's not even about patriotism,and I think, by and large, many
young people are patriotic andthey understand their calling
and patriotism, and I thinkwe're seeing that now in the
season we're in, with politicsand the elections and everything
(16:32):
else, but what I see is youngpeople who want to serve, and
that's kind of the thread that'srunning through everything that
I'm seeing in our students,whether they want to be business
leaders and entrepreneurs anduse that to make their community
better.
Or they want to be nurses andteachers, or scientists, you
(16:55):
know, in all of these differentareas, and we have over 80
programs associates, bachelorsand graduate.
We have about 80 plus programs,80 to 85 programs.
I'm seeing this threat ofservice and that's what
permeates this military contextthat we operate in and I think
(17:15):
it makes us better becausethere's a respect, mike, there's
a respect for these timelessideals and traditions that you
know, I would say, many of us,you know, quote older folk.
I was called a baby the otherday, mike, so it made me feel
really good being in my 50s.
I was very encouraged by that.
But I think that is what'sunique about us and that
(17:40):
underscores that, yes, I leadone of the largest military
affiliated organizations, highered organizations in the country
, but at the end of the day, Iget to be the president of a
university that's, you know,what I believe is destined to be
the most innovative, dynamic,legacy making university in
(18:02):
America, because of all of thethings that we get to do here in
this, this, this ecosystem thatwe operate in, um, so it's
pretty cool.
It's pretty cool and it's ait's a cool mix.
Um, there are kids here thathave zero to do with the army,
the military, and they love it.
And, by the way, they, whenthey go to lunch, mike, they're
(18:25):
sitting right next to a cadetwho's in a uniform, and their
college experiences are totallydifferent, but they're operating
in the exact same environmentand it is so cool to watch this
happen, and we see it across ourfive campuses as well.
The dynamics are all over theplace and we see it across our
(18:45):
five campuses as well.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The dynamics are all over the place.
Yeah, that's so cool and sofascinating.
I could see this so many sortof complementary pieces, you
know really being a brandsignature for you guys.
How do you think about thatpositioning unique in terms of
(19:27):
the military, the serviceaspects, your unique focus and
purpose, the connection tobroader, you know, regional,
comprehensive institutions orother institutions that have a
bit of a military focus, butyou're competing against
community colleges, right.
You're competing against, youknow, statist issues, you're
competing against privateinstitutions and you're also
competing against this broadernon-college, non-service, you
know, thing that we're sort ofseeing in our culture too.
(19:49):
How do you think about thatpositioning your campus to
signal to the right students andget your enrollment and
retention, all of that stuff,where you need it to be.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, that's a great question, Mike, and thank you
for the opportunity to talkabout this, because I'm
incredibly passionate about this.
Look, there is no time inhistory and you and I work in
this area, so I think we canspeak on this there is no time
in the history that the value ofhigher education, the higher
(20:25):
education value proposition, hasbeen questioned.
I don't think there's any timewhere it's been more intense,
where it's been questioned more,and I don't know.
Obviously, higher ed's beenaround for 388 years and I can't
always comment on those 388years, but I just don't know a
moment as I think about this andas I've studied, you know, the,
(20:46):
the, the revolutions andevolutions of of higher
education in america, where it'sbeen under greater assault, and
for, for many, by the way,incredibly good reasons,
incredibly good reasons.
There's a lot to this.
It's contentious, it isdifficult, because you get into
(21:06):
philosophy, you get intopolitics, you get into values
and beliefs and all of thesedifferent things.
So, at the end of the day, Iwant to stay away from all.
I want to recognize that that'sthere and use that as the
motivation, and the motivationis this what we can control here
(21:27):
is changing that valueproposition for all of those
that we get to interact with andpotentially serve.
And that's your question, mike.
That's your question how are wedoing?
How are we doing?
And we're talking a lot aboutand we've been talking since
this summer, man, and you wantto get me fired up?
(22:06):
I will be incredibly fired upabout this, because this is why
Technology is moving at a pacethat we cannot comprehend or
understand, and it's changingeverything.
It's changing our dynamics inour society.
It's changing the societiesthat we operate in, mike.
Think about this.
(22:26):
So, historically, societies andI'm going to get to your
question, but I got to talkabout this Societies have been
engaged in geographicalconstructs.
It's been about your community,your state, your region, your
town, your, whatever yourcountry, whatever your, whatever
(22:47):
your country, whatever.
That's all gone now.
Societies are now dictated bytechnology.
And so think about thisFacebook has over three plus
billion monthly active users,3.0, something.
We can look it up.
We'll just say 3 billion plus.
China has about a billion, six,1.6, ish, 1.7, something like
that billion people in it.
(23:07):
So think about just that alone,mike.
Think about the context of thedifference between the community
as we know it, the society aswe know it, our geography, our
region, our state, our country,and what technology has afforded
us, and that's just one example.
You know the nexus ofbiotechnology.
(23:30):
I mean biotechnology blows meaway.
Now, I'm a nerd and I love tolearn about this stuff.
But where biotechnology is, Imean we're on the precipice of
manufacturing Of course that'svery controversial of
manufacturing.
Of course that's verycontroversial Organs.
We're on the precipice ofmanufacturing medicines,
customized medicines based onyour human genome.
(23:53):
We're on the precipice ofjust-in-time, democratized food
medicines, critical materials,etc.
Mike, I could go on and onabout this.
I could talk about thedisruption right now in warfare,
as you look around the globeand that is a big deal to us
because we built lieutenantshere the things are worth seeing
(24:14):
today.
So all of that is context.
I believe now that there is atime, now more than ever, where
the skills that you learn incollege matter now more than
ever, and it's not about workskills, it's about this ability
to learn, how to learn to dohard things.
Why do we make people take math, mike?
(24:37):
And everybody hates math exceptme, because I'm a nerd, I'm an
engineer and I like math.
Not many people like math.
Why do we make people take math?
Because it makes you thinkdifferently.
You think analytically, youthink creatively, you think in a
way that you wouldn't normallythink going about your day.
It's so, now more than ever,for people to be able to
(24:59):
navigate this.
And again, it's about learningto learn and it's about adapting
to change.
You know that's the environmentthat we have to operate in.
So, to answer your question,we're telling that story, and
our new positioning statementsays it all.
And I'm not trying to advertiseus, but I'm just trying to tell
you how we're thinking about it.
We're telling students whatcomes next.
What comes next?
(25:20):
That's our positioningstatement here at the University
of North Georgia.
What comes next for you?
How are you continuing everyday to learn, to adapt and
create value so that you canperform in this society?
Political?
It's based upon education andit's based upon the ability for
our society to be able to adaptto what we're seeing in this
(25:50):
change, and we're seeing it nowin our economy.
We've seen it right now in thelast five years in our economy.
We're starting to see it, andso the ability to be able to
operate in that is our valueproposition and that's what
we're telling the world aboutand that's how we're positioning
ourselves is you come to aplace like this, we're going to
(26:12):
teach you how to navigate inthis environment.
We're going to teach you how tothink not what to think, but
how to think, how to learn.
We're going to focus on you asa human.
We're going to teach you how tobe a leader.
We're going to teach you how toperform in all dimensions of
human performance, and we'regoing to equip you to walk
(26:32):
toward that purpose that wetalked about early on, and I
think that is the so what of thedisruption in American higher
education.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That's the so what?
Yeah, I love that.
Something you said in therewhich I think is really
important, and perhaps somethingthat I don't see as much as I
would like at other institutionsis doing hard things and the
importance of doing hard things.
Can you speak on that a littlebit and how you think about
weaving that into the UNGexperience?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, it's a great question and this has really
struck me since I got here andwas able to be a part of this
great place and be on this teamhere, able to be a part of this
great place and be on this teamhere.
I mean, here's the deal andthere's a lot of debate, mike,
(27:28):
look, a lot of people aretalking about you know why do
you need to go to college?
The economy is so great, youcan get these jobs and you can
do all this stuff and you canmake six figures doing this and
I get all that.
And, look, there are greatexamples of people who have been
incredibly successful, who havebeen able to navigate all of
that.
And, by the way, there's datathat talk about this.
(27:50):
There's data that this ispublished and you know, mcgowan
and Chipley talk about this.
The capitalization of the topfive companies in America over
the last hundred years isfascinating.
You know a hundred years ago, inthe early 1900s, it was all
about extracting value fromnatural resources.
Again, it was what we talkedabout.
You went out there and youworked.
(28:10):
It was about natural resources.
Today, it's all about drawingvalue from learning and from
information, because the topfive companies back then were
companies that were, like USSteel, companies that were based
upon natural resources.
Today, all the top fivecompanies in America are based
(28:31):
upon information.
We're talking about Facebook andAmazon and Microsoft and these
kinds of companies, and so youhave to be able to do hard
things in that, and it's notjust about the physical part of
humanity.
Historically, you could just doit by brute force, right?
(28:54):
You could show.
It's even the same in the armyright before my eyes, and our
superintendent, who is a retiredlieutenant general, very
distinguished graduate of thisplace and went on to be an
incredible leader in the Armyand did tremendous work in Iraq
and Afghanistan he and I talkabout this all the time and it
(29:16):
blows us away as we think aboutit.
You know, back when we wereyoung lieutenants, mike, you
could show up and if you had thephysical prowess and the
wherewithal, you could beincredibly successful.
Today, you have to do all thatand be able to operate in this
(29:36):
environment that is laden withtechnology.
With technology To yourquestion, yes, we still need
people to be able to work withtheir hands and do hard things.
I'm a huge advocate for that.
I love to do things.
I don't call anybody to work onthe house at all.
(30:00):
I fix everything.
I'm not saying I'm good at it.
I usually break it and thensomebody has to come help me.
But today you can't just havethose skills to be able to
compete at the highest levels inthis society, in this economy.
(30:21):
You also have to have thisability to think and then
perform as a human at a higherlevel because of this
compression of time, and so theidea of doing hard things has
emerged from that.
Just literally over the pastsix months, as I've talked to
students and it's really dawnedon me, I've started to ask
questions because I get all thetime.
President Shannon, why do Ihave to and we pick on that why
(30:44):
do I have to take this mathcourse?
Or, president Shannon, why do Ihave to take this history
course or this psychology course?
Because it makes you think in away and it's hard and it holds
you accountable by somebody else.
(31:05):
There's an accountability level.
This is why, mike, you justcan't watch a YouTube video and
get a college degree.
The value proposition, thepromise of college is you will
go there, you will be among yourpeers, you will be evaluated
(31:25):
among your peers by someone elseand that person, and many
throughout a course of time willwill certify to everyone else
that you have obtained thislevel of you know, performance.
You know you've attained thatlevel of achievement in those
(31:48):
topics.
That's doing hard things.
You know it's looking thatprofessor and look, pull my
transcripts.
I don't have the best gradesbut that's okay.
You know, by the way, I'm ahuge advocate for merit and
success and student achievementand academic achievement.
But at the end of the day,nobody asks anybody, when you
(32:11):
interact in our society and oureconomy, what their grade point
average was.
Nobody asks that.
Nobody cares.
All they care about is somebodyis going to serve you when
you're in the emergency room.
You don't ask the doctor man,did you get straight A's in
medical school?
No, you're like dude, save mylife.
Yeah, you know and look, I'm notunderscoring achievement and
(32:33):
look, we have to continue tofocus on that.
But we have to focus on theseare experiences that grow people
, grow their intellectualcapacity and at the end, it
gives them the decisiveadvantage.
There is no better feeling andI have had this high, you
(32:54):
probably have as well Gettingthrough the final of a course in
college and you feel like youjust conquered the world.
You're like the guy in themovie on the Titanic you have
just conquered the world becauseyou made it through that course
that was eating you for lunch.
(33:15):
That course was just all overyou and at the end you conquered
it and you were thriving in it.
And most of the students weserve here, mike and look, I
came from a place before thisthat had incredibly high
performing students, best of thebest, most brilliant students.
(33:36):
What I love about this place isis this is a place for every
student.
We have brilliant students hereand we have students here that
the world is saying you don'tneed to go to college, you're
not good enough, and I rejectthat.
I reject that.
College is for everyone Ifthey're willing to show up, work
(33:57):
hard, stay committed and stayfocused.
So I want to wrap my headaround every day with our
students.
You can do hard things, you getyour way through this.
You can do hard things anddon't be so constricted by the
narrative of oh well, yourmajor's this and you did that,
(34:18):
and your GPA is this, it doesn'tmatter anymore, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Ied I love what you said there and went from like
100-ish years ago, from likethat brawn-based economy to a
brain-based economy.
I think what can get lost inthat sometimes is that in this
brain-based economy that runs oninformation and that has these
mega tools at our disposal thatare incredible levers, that I
(34:45):
could easily see how places candiscount the importance of doing
things and why that buildsgreat resilience and sort of
skills that help in the broadsense.
So I love that.
How do you think about talentand staffing management?
You've got some, I think,geographic, unique aspects of
where you are in the country,combined with those five
(35:07):
campuses, all of which haveslightly different fields but
sort of feed into a broaderumbrella.
How do you think about sort oftalent and staff management to
sort of get teams that are up tothe skill and caliber to
deliver on your end product?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, that's a really great question and, again,
we're in an incredibleopportunity.
I know you're in Europe, in theNorthland, I'm here in the
South, the South, our region.
We're in the northern part ofGeorgia, so, as the crow flies,
(35:53):
we're about an hour and a halfnorth of Atlanta.
We're in the mountains, in thefoothills of the Appalachians.
It's beautiful here, by the way.
It's gorgeous but it'saccessible, it's easy to get to.
So it's an attractivedestination and I think the
dynamics of Georgia are allowingfor more growth.
(36:15):
Georgia continues to grow, asdoes the region, and for all of
the reasons we all know about, Ithink today that is changing.
(36:36):
We're still a publicinstitution.
We still have challenges withthe best way we can attract
people, because we do havelimitations that a public has.
But, by and large, we arelooking for people that want to
(36:57):
be a part of disrupting thisvalue proposition, that want to
be a part of this vision of youknow, 388 years, lots of success
, lots of progress.
But we now need to flip it anddisrupt it and move it forward,
and we're finding people thatwant to be a part of that with
(37:20):
our staff.
You know, you think about staffat a university, and these are
small cities.
We have everything from peoplewho run infrastructure, we have
a police department, we havecooks and bakers and candlestick
makers.
I mean we have it all here.
Uh, we have, you know, academicstaff, professionals who are
(37:42):
experienced in, you know,student engagement, student
success, academic advising allof the inner workings that allow
a university to flourish.
And, of course, key to all ofthis is our faculty.
We need people to stand infront of students and inspire
(38:02):
them towards this vision andpush them to do hard things, and
so our value proposition ishigh, because I think we have a
vision that people are excitedor getting excited about.
And most of what we talkedabout, mike is, you know, pretty
new.
We've been here, like I said,17 months.
Um, we've been really talking alot about this the last, you
(38:23):
know, three to six months, and Ithink that's starting to catch
on.
Um, it's a great place to live.
It's a great place to raise afamily.
The weather's good.
I mean, I would argue myweather is better.
Know my, you know, as I thinkabout a risk register because
I'm the president, I'm also aCEO of a major organization, a
(38:43):
multi, you know, hundreds ofmillions of dollars organization
.
You know I always worry aboutthe health and fidelity of our
(39:04):
team, of our people, and workingat a place like this is very
missional, mike.
It's not an eight hour a daydeal.
You know, people leave but theygo home and they turn back on
again and that's something thatkeeps me up at night and, look,
I'm just as bad.
But I tell people all the timedon't be like Mike, because
Mike's expected to be like this,because it's part of this role.
(39:27):
You know, I mean I'm I'm goingevery day, 12 hours a day,
because I'm going to events, I'mspeaking to groups, I'm all
over.
You know, I'm with donors, I'mwith our, with our athletics
programs, um, but what I worryabout is is uh, how do we
continue to build people?
Because the the young generationis recognizing that.
(39:51):
The good news is, the youngergeneration is recognizing that
there is more to life than work.
You know, live to work or workto live, and I think they're
getting in the middle of thatand they're reconciling with
that.
Now some would argue it's tooextreme and so what we're trying
to do is calibrate.
That is because we talk toyoung people.
(40:13):
But what I think about is it'snot staffing now, it's staffing
over the next five to 10 years.
You know, whoever sits in thischair and it probably won't be
me, because these things don'tlast forever but, that being
said, how do we grow ageneration of people that want
to serve in this way?
So you know, something I thinkabout all the time is talking to
(40:35):
our students about hey, maybeyou want to be a part of this
higher ed industry, and it's agreat industry and it's an
inspiring industry.
But yeah, there is nothinghigher in my risk register than
our people.
I think about that more than Ithink even about safety, because
we're in an environment wheresafety is pretty favorable for
(40:56):
our community.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Really, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, it's just such achallenge.
And so then I think Waze sortof had me on the mind of you
know you've got these incrediblepeople?
How do you support them?
How do you do the different ofyou know?
You've got these incrediblepeople.
How do you support them?
How do you train them?
How do you do the pieces thatyou're talking about?
If you could just wave a magicwand and just sort of fix
anything potentially for theteams, what would it be?
(41:20):
Short of just sort of givingthis windfall of money.
But if you could sort of haveone magic fix, what do you think
that would be?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know everybody wants to goto money.
You know money doesn't alwayssolve everything.
You know great organizationswho have failed have had plenty
of money and I think that'salways a lesson that leaders of
(41:50):
organizations especially.
You know multi-tens of hundredsof million dollar organizations
like this one, you need toremember.
It's not money isn't generallythe fix.
I want to invent time.
(42:11):
I want to invent time, and Isay that jokingly, but I think
time is just as big of an enemyagainst us now.
It's bigger than money.
You know we can create our owneconomy here and that's what
we're doing.
We're changing this economy.
(42:31):
We're changing this economy forour students.
By the way, um and people havebeen talking about it a lot
lately eab has just done somephenomenal work on this just
recently um, the number onething in the minds of students
and parents, and the minds ofparents relative to students, is
money.
It's about the, the cost, it'sabout scholarships, it's about
(42:52):
money and I said, like I saidyesterday with our leadership
team.
I said, look, we have to takemoney off the table, we have to
make that.
So that's not a problem.
And I believe you know, beingin the most vibrant economy in
the world and the richestcountry that's ever lived, we
(43:14):
can solve the economy problem.
So to your point, I think moneyis, whether it's for our
students, their economy or oureconomy as an organization.
But I think time is my biggestconcern, you know, and when I
first got here, literally fromthe first week, I talked about
running out of time and itdawned on me, mike and I'll tell
(43:35):
you a short story, and I knowwe're almost at time.
But let me just tell you ashort story.
The human life is really short.
The human life is really reallyshort, and I think you always
hear this growing up from olderpeople, your grandparents, your
aunts and uncles and when youget there like we are getting
(43:56):
there, and again I'm in my 50syou start to really realize it.
And I realized it from the spanof my career in the Army, you
know, and I retired from theArmy, army, which is hilarious
when you're in your 40s to say,yeah, I'm retired, um, but I
remember vividly, like I was ayoung army officer, I was a
(44:18):
second lieutenant and that'swhere you start and your boss,
about two levels up, is a, is alieutenant colonel, a battalion
commander.
It's about 7 800, 800 people,and I remember vividly Mike
standing there in a formation.
All the soldiers were there andthe battalion commander's
talking this is a big deal,right?
(44:40):
This is the boss, right?
And I'm sitting there thinking,man, this guy is a dinosaur,
this guy is older than dirt bythe way, this guy was probably
38 or 39 years old.
This guy is a dinosaur and I amso young.
(45:03):
Flash forward, you know, 17years later, and I'm one of them
.
Flash forward, you know, 17years later, and I'm one of them
.
I am a.
You know, I wasn't a battalioncommander, but I was at that
level.
I went intocounterproliferation and did
some other things in the Army,but I was at that level and at
(45:24):
that level of seniority in Armytime and I am like holy cow, I
am now the dinosaur.
And then, fast forward, I'mretiring, I'm retiring, I am
retiring.
And it dawned on me, mike,you're running out of time, you
are running out of time.
And from that moment forward,which was, by the way, nine
(45:45):
years ago, and from that momentforward, which was, by the way,
nine years ago, I have had thissense of urgency about how I
think, about everything that Ido with my family, with my
amazing life, with my fouramazing kids, and how I think
professionally.
And I think that's our biggestchallenge.
(46:05):
If I could change anythingBecause, mike, I want to do so
much and I only have so muchtime to do it and, as you know,
a lot of these things take timeand, by the way, I am anti the
theory.
Well, it's going to take a longtime to get that done.
I don't believe in any of that.
I want to disrupt that too.
(46:26):
Because, by the way way, wetalked all this whole time about
compressed timelines.
Right, everyone's operating incompression mainly because of
these and because of thisintensity of the climb of
technology, and so I believe thethe biggest thing that anybody
(46:47):
in my role has to work on is howdo you get things done as
rapidly as you can?
That doesn't mean you're notthoughtful, that doesn't mean
you're not logical, that doesn'tmean you're not doing good
strategic things.
But you have got to move.
You cannot admire the problemLike.
You have got to look at theproblem, diagnose it, and you've
(47:08):
got to go, because this time isgetting shorter and shorter and
shorter, and so that's what Iwould do operationally.
Yeah, money would be great.
I don't even care about themoney, I care about the time,
and I talk about it all the timewith our senior leaders here is
we got a lot to do and we don'thave a lot of time to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Very well said.
I think that's a great place toend it, mike.
Thank you, this has beenamazing.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
My pleasure and thank you for the opportunity.
And again, we're very honoredto deliver the mission and work
of the University of NorthGeorgia, and so we'd love to
continue the conversation, mike,on any of these topics.
As you can tell, I get a littlebit excited about this stuff.
Same here, thank you.
All right, mike, thanks for being with me.
I would just love to know howdid you go from being working in
infantry signal, nuclear andcounterproliferation officer in
the US Army to a collegepresident?
I come from an Army family andNavy family myself, so I'm
really curious how you made thistransition.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Yeah, that's the million-dollar question, Mike,
and if I had a recipe for it, Iwould probably not be doing this
.
What I would say is this, and Ithink this is part of where we
are in higher education, I havealways felt like and I put this
(00:49):
for everyone that we're createdfor purpose, our journey through
life continues to equip us andwe're walking toward that
purpose every day,professionally, in our families
and in all of our encounters.
And so how did I get here?
Was I was somebody who wantedto be an astronaut, serve in the
(01:10):
Air Force, be a fighter pilot.
As you can tell, none of thathappened and today I sit before
you where I believe I'm in mypurpose, getting to lead an
amazing university.
And so all of it is a journey,and I believe it speaks volumes
(01:34):
to where we are in highereducation today.
A lot of cool experiences.
I had some really cool jobs.
I got to do a lot of veryinteresting things, from, you
know, firing machine guns for aliving to jumping out of
airplanes, to working on somemajor research and development
(01:57):
programs in laboratories, toleading, you know, one of the
one of the most prominent thebusiness of one of the most
prominent research universitieson the globe, to now doing this.
So, and all of it is, you know,it has nothing to do with my
degree, my major.
It has everything to do withthe ability to adapt, to learn,
(02:20):
to lead and to be able tocontinue that, that journey and
that walk towards purpose.
So there's, like I said, mike,if I had a recipe, I would
bottle it and sell it andprobably do pretty well, but I
really don't.
But the recipe is what I justoutlined and I think that's the
so what of where we are inhigher ed today is.
These are the dynamics thatwe're operating in.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I'm really glad you brought up the purpose piece of
it.
I find just sort of looking atdata, particularly the data
around young men.
So many young men don't havepurpose right now.
And we see it in so manydifferent facets, but you know
there are a lot of young menwith a disability or they're
spending lots of time on screensfocused in different areas.
(03:07):
All of that I think it's fromsocietal things, potentially
sort of traveling when you lookat how you've reverse engineered
purpose for yourself, findinghow to see this gap towards that
.
What are some of the way,markers or things that you try
to put into your work, your G,to make students find that place
(03:29):
?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, I love the question.
It's the perfect question forthe moment we're in and I think
it's the so what and we see ithere, by the way, just as an
aside our female, our womenstudents here are just thriving
in every dimension and even atscale.
(03:54):
I mean we have many more womenacross our enrollment than we do
men, and you see it anecdotallyjust walking around, you see it
at commencements, you see itacross the board and it's real.
And there's a lot of discussionright now about this and I
(04:18):
believe that I'm being called inthe role I serve, to be a part
of the solution for this.
I think the way markers.
Well, let me just here's mythesis on why we are where we
are today, and I think most ofit is technology, and there's
(04:39):
been a lot of work done, whetherit's McGowan and Shipley,
whether it's Deloitte, worldEconomic Forum.
A lot of people are working onthis now and talking about the
pieces of it, and I've beenreally trying to collate it all
and trying to understand it.
Technology has grown at such arate over the last 60 to 70
(05:00):
years than it has at any time inthe history of humanity, 70
years than it has at any time inthe history of humanity, and
humans are just not able to keepup with it.
And what we're finding is is,you know and this has been
written about and I believe thisto be true the challenge with
this information age isn't thetechnology itself, it's the
compression of time.
And so today, you know and alot of it are these things right
(05:25):
here, you know, that that wephysically have glued to our
bodies.
You know, there is such anexpectation on humans, and
especially young people, to haveinstant decision making,
continuously, at every moment,every day, always, and you hear
(05:48):
this word pop up all the time.
And I'm going to get to yourquestion, mike, but I have to
talk about this this isimportant.
We hear this word all the timeanxious, anxious.
We hear it all the time and Ihave four amazing children who
are in this generation as well,and I hear it from my kids, I
hear it from their friends, Ihear it from my 20,000 kids that
(06:09):
I get to be a part of here atthe university.
Um, and you never heard thatmic when you and I grew up.
Because you didn't have to,because you know, back in those
days you picked up the phone,you went like this you know,
I'll never forget the phone inmy grandmother's kitchen and you
(06:29):
would call somebody and if theydidn't answer, it was OK, you
just, they're not home, they'renot whatever.
I mean, they could be outsidein the bathroom, wherever, and
it was all, everybody's finewith that, everybody's fine with
(06:58):
that.
Today, there is an expectationin our society that if you don't
instantly have a response towhatever this thing is feeding
you, you know you've missed out,you're lost, you're not good
enough, it's all of it.
I also think people notrealizing the value of all the
aspects of how the human bodyperforms it's not just physical,
but it's physical, mental,spiritual, sleep, nutrition and
the brain and how they all worktogether.
(07:19):
And so I think you see this inthe way we eat, the way we don't
sleep anymore.
It's just all of this, mike.
And if you put all this in theway we eat, the way we don't
sleep anymore, it's just all ofthis, mike.
And if you put all this in themiddle, that's what's going on
in this generation today.
And to your point specifically,our young men are in front of
screens.
They're not engaged, they'renot out, doing the things that
(07:47):
you know we grew up doingclimbing trees and swinging from
ropes.
And I mean, you know why did Ilove the army?
It's because it was like I waswhen I was a kid.
I was an athlete, I was a, youknow, I hunted, I fished with my
, you know, with my family.
You know it was all thesethings.
And so I think that's why weare where we are.
And you know, as I talk aboutwaypoints, it's bringing
(08:09):
students back to those places,right?
You know, if I do a 180 and Ilook back on my 50 plus years,
it is like this man, it is allover the place.
I mean, I've been all over theplace in the breadcrumbs, though
light up like beacons, andthere are moments along the way
that equipped me for thispurpose that I believe I'm in.
Finally, by the way, I thinkit's full-hearty for us, as
(08:34):
higher education leaders, totalk about what do you want to
be when you grow up?
What do you want your major tobe?
What do you want?
That is full hearted, becauseI'm in my 50s and I'm still
working on that.
You know, yeah, I've done a lotof things.
I've retired from one career,I've moved on to another, I've
worked in a bunch of differentplaces, but the bottom line is
(08:55):
it's those waypoints, how youequip yourself for a purpose,
and I believe it's all.
It is all about not justteaching people how to think
analytical thinking, creativethinking all that is key and
it's critical.
It's teaching them about allaspects of being a human, and so
it's leadership, it'sperformance across all of those
(09:20):
domains that I mentioned, andthat's what I try to talk to our
students about in our strategy.
I literally had a leadershipmeeting yesterday.
We've been here 17 months,it'll be 17 months on Friday and
for the first time, we got allof our senior, most leaders
about 100 people in a room, andso all the people who directly
(09:41):
report under me, under theprovost, under all the different
folks and then the next leveldown.
And I'm telling you, man, itwas a great time of just talking
about this and we all feel thisand it's emotional because we
are all vested in this.
You know, what people don'trealize is is that higher
(10:02):
education people are passionate,is that higher education people
are passionate, and sometimesthey're passionate, and that
falls in different categories ofpassion, but they're passionate
about what they do.
And what we're trying to bepassionate about is we're not
trying to fall into anycategories where we will be
characterized.
We don't want to have aclassification placed upon us.
(10:22):
We want to be here to serveevery student we have an
opportunity to touch and we wantto change their perspective.
And that's what I saw yesterday, mike.
I saw this coming together ofall of our team and we're
teammates.
This is boys in the boat.
We're all in the boat.
We're grabbing an oar and we'rerowing and we're trying to do
(10:43):
it together and we really wantto attack this.
Yes, we have to prepare ourstudents to be able to navigate
this economy, but I would argue,I mean, you're looking at
somebody who has a degree inaerospace engineering, who was a
chief business officer, right?
I mean, come on, you know, butthat didn't matter.
That didn't matter because welive in a generation of learning
(11:06):
to learn and being adaptive andcreating value through that.
And, by the way, that's all inShiffley and McGowan's work, and
I love the way they put it alltogether.
So that's what I would say,mike, and that's what I would
offer.
I know that was a long answerto a short question, offer.
I know that was a long answerto a short question, but the
bottom line is this I think wehave to come back, focus on the
(11:28):
human, focus on the human in alldimensions, teaching them how
to think and then how to be ableto operate in this disruptive,
compressed environment.
And it's only going to getfaster.
Mark my words, mike.
10 years from now, peoplearen't going to recognize the
dynamics we're operating in.
(11:48):
Trust me.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I think what you said there was brilliant.
You know, learning to learn,adapting, holistic development,
I mean all of these pieces arereally connected and you know
you could argue very easilythey're increasingly important.
Such a disconnect that ismoving, it's easy to sort of
lose your brains about whatyou're doing.
(12:12):
It's very sort of disruptivefor primitive brains which were
built to hunt and survive in avery different world.
Um, what are some of themisconceptions around running a
military institution and howthat differs from running a
traditional institution?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I appreciate it and I'mlaughing with you because you're
welcome to my world.
You're very perceptive, myfriend.
You're welcome to my world.
You're very perceptive, myfriend.
So here's the deal.
The University of North Georgia151 years and we have gone
through a lot of change, justlike all organizations, right.
(12:56):
And so we are a legacy ofmultiple institutions.
We were consolidated by ouruniversity system about 11 years
ago and today we stand as auniversity across five campuses
serving nearly just under 20,000students.
(13:17):
And we also serve as theMilitary College of Georgia.
So we are designated in GeorgiaState Code as the Military
College of Georgia.
We have been since 1980.
And we are also one of the sixTitle X senior military colleges
, so we are also designated infederal law as a senior military
college.
(13:37):
And, incidentally, we are theArmy Senior Military College.
We're the only all-Army.
So we do one thing here we makesecond lieutenants for the
United States Army.
Of course I'm a little biasedby that, since I served a whole
career in the Army, but that'swhat we do here.
(14:02):
The other thing is so our Corpsof Cadets today, mike, stands
at about 700.
And we have an ambitious goaland I encourage folks to check
out what we're doing.
It's all on our web and on ourcontent.
We're delivering the core ofthe future.
We're going to grow the core to1,000.
And that's the sweet spot.
We feel like we can serve theArmy best and we've had great
conversations with the mostsenior leaders of the United
States Army, with the mostsenior leaders of the United
(14:23):
States Army, you know,harnessing this vision and we're
working on that together.
But notice what I said even whenwe're at 1,000, we still serve
another nearly 19,000 students,and so this is a really
fascinating place, mike.
It is, and I love being here.
(14:43):
By the way, I am so privilegedto be here and be on this team
and be a part of the legacy ofthis place.
We have produced 65 generalofficers.
We have 41 living generalofficers today.
We have 21 serving brigade orhigher level commanders in our
army.
I mean this place is off thecharts.
(15:03):
I mean we're at a scale thatWest Point's at per capita.
That's what we do here and alot of people don't know about
North Georgia and we're workinghard to continue to tell this
story.
But we also serve nearly 19,000students.
That are just you know, mikeand Sally, you know, they're
just regular students, most ofthem kids fresh out of high
(15:26):
school, some of them adultlearners, some of them in
graduate school, and they'rehere to, to, to equip themselves
for that purpose that I wastalking about, you know, in
degree programs ranging fromeducation to health care.
So we are a traditional regionaltype university model, but
we're different.
There's no other school likethis Five campuses.
(15:49):
We have this huge, you know.
You come here to Dahlonega,which is one of our larger
campuses.
You're at the Military Collegeof Georgia, you go to our
Gainesville Georgia campus,which is about an hour as I'm
sitting here, an hour east ofwhere I'm sitting, or southeast.
It is a totally different campus, it's a totally different
(16:10):
community, and so the unifyingthread, though, is this thread
of service.
It's not even about patriotism,and I think, by and large, many
young people are patriotic andthey understand their calling
and patriotism, and I thinkwe're seeing that now in the
season we're in, with politicsand the elections and everything
(16:32):
else, but what I see is youngpeople who want to serve, and
that's kind of the thread that'srunning through everything that
I'm seeing in our students,whether they want to be business
leaders and entrepreneurs anduse that to make their community
better.
Or they want to be nurses andteachers, or scientists, you
(16:55):
know, in all of these differentareas, and we have over 80
programs associates, bachelorsand graduate.
We have about 80 plus programs,80 to 85 programs.
I'm seeing this threat ofservice and that's what
permeates this military contextthat we operate in and I think
(17:15):
it makes us better becausethere's a respect, mike, there's
a respect for these timelessideals and traditions that you
know, I would say, many of us,you know, quote older folk.
I was called a baby the otherday, mike, so it made me feel
really good being in my 50s.
I was very encouraged by that.
But I think that is what'sunique about us and that
(17:40):
underscores that, yes, I leadone of the largest military
affiliated organizations, highered organizations in the country
, but at the end of the day, Iget to be the president of a
university that's, you know,what I believe is destined to be
the most innovative, dynamic,legacy making university in
(18:02):
America, because of all of thethings that we get to do here in
this, this, this ecosystem thatwe operate in, um, so it's
pretty cool.
It's pretty cool and it's ait's a cool mix.
Um, there are kids here thathave zero to do with the army,
the military, and they love it.
And, by the way, they, whenthey go to lunch, mike, they're
(18:25):
sitting right next to a cadetwho's in a uniform, and their
college experiences are totallydifferent, but they're operating
in the exact same environmentand it is so cool to watch this
happen, and we see it across ourfive campuses as well.
The dynamics are all over theplace and we see it across our
(18:45):
five campuses as well.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The dynamics are all over the place.
Yeah, that's so cool and sofascinating.
I could see this so many sortof complementary pieces, you
know really being a brandsignature for you guys.
How do you think about thatpositioning unique in terms of
(19:27):
the military, the serviceaspects, your unique focus and
purpose, the connection tobroader, you know, regional,
comprehensive institutions orother institutions that have a
bit of a military focus, butyou're competing against
community colleges, right.
You're competing against, youknow, statist issues, you're
competing against privateinstitutions and you're also
competing against this broadernon-college, non-service, you
know, thing that we're sort ofseeing in our culture too.
(19:49):
How do you think about thatpositioning your campus to
signal to the right students andget your enrollment and
retention, all of that stuff,where you need it to be.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, that's a great question, Mike, and thank you
for the opportunity to talkabout this, because I'm
incredibly passionate about this.
Look, there is no time inhistory and you and I work in
this area, so I think we canspeak on this there is no time
in the history that the value ofhigher education, the higher
(20:25):
education value proposition, hasbeen questioned.
I don't think there's any timewhere it's been more intense,
where it's been questioned more,and I don't know.
Obviously, higher ed's beenaround for 388 years and I can't
always comment on those 388years, but I just don't know a
moment as I think about this andas I've studied, you know, the,
(20:46):
the, the revolutions andevolutions of of higher
education in america, where it'sbeen under greater assault, and
for, for many, by the way,incredibly good reasons,
incredibly good reasons.
There's a lot to this.
It's contentious, it isdifficult, because you get into
(21:06):
philosophy, you get intopolitics, you get into values
and beliefs and all of thesedifferent things.
So, at the end of the day, Iwant to stay away from all.
I want to recognize that that'sthere and use that as the
motivation, and the motivationis this what we can control here
(21:27):
is changing that valueproposition for all of those
that we get to interact with andpotentially serve.
And that's your question, mike.
That's your question how are wedoing?
How are we doing?
And we're talking a lot aboutand we've been talking since
this summer, man, and you wantto get me fired up?
(22:06):
I will be incredibly fired upabout this, because this is why
Technology is moving at a pacethat we cannot comprehend or
understand, and it's changingeverything.
It's changing our dynamics inour society.
It's changing the societiesthat we operate in, mike.
Think about this.
(22:26):
So, historically, societies andI'm going to get to your
question, but I got to talkabout this Societies have been
engaged in geographicalconstructs.
It's been about your community,your state, your region, your
town, your, whatever yourcountry, whatever your, whatever
(22:47):
your country, whatever.
That's all gone now.
Societies are now dictated bytechnology.
And so think about thisFacebook has over three plus
billion monthly active users,3.0, something.
We can look it up.
We'll just say 3 billion plus.
China has about a billion, six,1.6, ish, 1.7, something like
that billion people in it.
(23:07):
So think about just that alone,mike.
Think about the context of thedifference between the community
as we know it, the society aswe know it, our geography, our
region, our state, our country,and what technology has afforded
us, and that's just one example.
You know the nexus ofbiotechnology.
(23:30):
I mean biotechnology blows meaway.
Now, I'm a nerd and I love tolearn about this stuff.
But where biotechnology is, Imean we're on the precipice of
manufacturing Of course that'svery controversial of
manufacturing.
Of course that's verycontroversial Organs.
We're on the precipice ofmanufacturing medicines,
customized medicines based onyour human genome.
(23:53):
We're on the precipice ofjust-in-time, democratized food
medicines, critical materials,etc.
Mike, I could go on and onabout this.
I could talk about thedisruption right now in warfare,
as you look around the globeand that is a big deal to us
because we built lieutenantshere the things are worth seeing
(24:14):
today.
So all of that is context.
I believe now that there is atime, now more than ever, where
the skills that you learn incollege matter now more than
ever, and it's not about workskills, it's about this ability
to learn, how to learn to dohard things.
Why do we make people take math, mike?
(24:37):
And everybody hates math exceptme, because I'm a nerd, I'm an
engineer and I like math.
Not many people like math.
Why do we make people take math?
Because it makes you thinkdifferently.
You think analytically, youthink creatively, you think in a
way that you wouldn't normallythink going about your day.
It's so, now more than ever,for people to be able to
(24:59):
navigate this.
And again, it's about learningto learn and it's about adapting
to change.
You know that's the environmentthat we have to operate in.
So, to answer your question,we're telling that story, and
our new positioning statementsays it all.
And I'm not trying to advertiseus, but I'm just trying to tell
you how we're thinking about it.
We're telling students whatcomes next.
What comes next?
(25:20):
That's our positioningstatement here at the University
of North Georgia.
What comes next for you?
How are you continuing everyday to learn, to adapt and
create value so that you canperform in this society?
Political?
It's based upon education andit's based upon the ability for
our society to be able to adaptto what we're seeing in this
(25:50):
change, and we're seeing it nowin our economy.
We've seen it right now in thelast five years in our economy.
We're starting to see it, andso the ability to be able to
operate in that is our valueproposition and that's what
we're telling the world aboutand that's how we're positioning
ourselves is you come to aplace like this, we're going to
(26:12):
teach you how to navigate inthis environment.
We're going to teach you how tothink not what to think, but
how to think, how to learn.
We're going to focus on you asa human.
We're going to teach you how tobe a leader.
We're going to teach you how toperform in all dimensions of
human performance, and we'regoing to equip you to walk
(26:32):
toward that purpose that wetalked about early on, and I
think that is the so what of thedisruption in American higher
education.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That's the so what?
Yeah, I love that.
Something you said in therewhich I think is really
important, and perhaps somethingthat I don't see as much as I
would like at other institutionsis doing hard things and the
importance of doing hard things.
Can you speak on that a littlebit and how you think about
weaving that into the UNGexperience?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, it's a great question and this has really
struck me since I got here andwas able to be a part of this
great place and be on this teamhere, able to be a part of this
great place and be on this teamhere.
I mean, here's the deal andthere's a lot of debate, mike,
(27:28):
look, a lot of people aretalking about you know why do
you need to go to college?
The economy is so great, youcan get these jobs and you can
do all this stuff and you canmake six figures doing this and
I get all that.
And, look, there are greatexamples of people who have been
incredibly successful, who havebeen able to navigate all of
that.
And, by the way, there's datathat talk about this.
(27:50):
There's data that this ispublished and you know, mcgowan
and Chipley talk about this.
The capitalization of the topfive companies in America over
the last hundred years isfascinating.
You know a hundred years ago, inthe early 1900s, it was all
about extracting value fromnatural resources.
Again, it was what we talkedabout.
You went out there and youworked.
(28:10):
It was about natural resources.
Today, it's all about drawingvalue from learning and from
information, because the topfive companies back then were
companies that were, like USSteel, companies that were based
upon natural resources.
Today, all the top fivecompanies in America are based
(28:31):
upon information.
We're talking about Facebook andAmazon and Microsoft and these
kinds of companies, and so youhave to be able to do hard
things in that, and it's notjust about the physical part of
humanity.
Historically, you could just doit by brute force, right?
(28:54):
You could show.
It's even the same in the armyright before my eyes, and our
superintendent, who is a retiredlieutenant general, very
distinguished graduate of thisplace and went on to be an
incredible leader in the Armyand did tremendous work in Iraq
and Afghanistan he and I talkabout this all the time and it
(29:16):
blows us away as we think aboutit.
You know, back when we wereyoung lieutenants, mike, you
could show up and if you had thephysical prowess and the
wherewithal, you could beincredibly successful.
Today, you have to do all thatand be able to operate in this
(29:36):
environment that is laden withtechnology.
With technology To yourquestion, yes, we still need
people to be able to work withtheir hands and do hard things.
I'm a huge advocate for that.
I love to do things.
I don't call anybody to work onthe house at all.
(30:00):
I fix everything.
I'm not saying I'm good at it.
I usually break it and thensomebody has to come help me.
But today you can't just havethose skills to be able to
compete at the highest levels inthis society, in this economy.
(30:21):
You also have to have thisability to think and then
perform as a human at a higherlevel because of this
compression of time, and so theidea of doing hard things has
emerged from that.
Just literally over the pastsix months, as I've talked to
students and it's really dawnedon me, I've started to ask
questions because I get all thetime.
President Shannon, why do Ihave to and we pick on that why
(30:44):
do I have to take this mathcourse?
Or, president Shannon, why do Ihave to take this history
course or this psychology course?
Because it makes you think in away and it's hard and it holds
you accountable by somebody else.
(31:05):
There's an accountability level.
This is why, mike, you justcan't watch a YouTube video and
get a college degree.
The value proposition, thepromise of college is you will
go there, you will be among yourpeers, you will be evaluated
(31:25):
among your peers by someone elseand that person, and many
throughout a course of time willwill certify to everyone else
that you have obtained thislevel of you know, performance.
You know you've attained thatlevel of achievement in those
(31:48):
topics.
That's doing hard things.
You know it's looking thatprofessor and look, pull my
transcripts.
I don't have the best gradesbut that's okay.
You know, by the way, I'm ahuge advocate for merit and
success and student achievementand academic achievement.
But at the end of the day,nobody asks anybody, when you
(32:11):
interact in our society and oureconomy, what their grade point
average was.
Nobody asks that.
Nobody cares.
All they care about is somebodyis going to serve you when
you're in the emergency room.
You don't ask the doctor man,did you get straight A's in
medical school?
No, you're like dude, save mylife.
Yeah, you know and look, I'm notunderscoring achievement and
(32:33):
look, we have to continue tofocus on that.
But we have to focus on theseare experiences that grow people
, grow their intellectualcapacity and at the end, it
gives them the decisiveadvantage.
There is no better feeling andI have had this high, you
(32:54):
probably have as well Gettingthrough the final of a course in
college and you feel like youjust conquered the world.
You're like the guy in themovie on the Titanic you have
just conquered the world becauseyou made it through that course
that was eating you for lunch.
(33:15):
That course was just all overyou and at the end you conquered
it and you were thriving in it.
And most of the students weserve here, mike and look, I
came from a place before thisthat had incredibly high
performing students, best of thebest, most brilliant students.
(33:36):
What I love about this place isis this is a place for every
student.
We have brilliant students hereand we have students here that
the world is saying you don'tneed to go to college, you're
not good enough, and I rejectthat.
I reject that.
College is for everyone Ifthey're willing to show up, work
(33:57):
hard, stay committed and stayfocused.
So I want to wrap my headaround every day with our
students.
You can do hard things, you getyour way through this.
You can do hard things anddon't be so constricted by the
narrative of oh well, yourmajor's this and you did that,
(34:18):
and your GPA is this, it doesn'tmatter anymore, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Ied I love what you said there and went from like
100-ish years ago, from likethat brawn-based economy to a
brain-based economy.
I think what can get lost inthat sometimes is that in this
brain-based economy that runs oninformation and that has these
mega tools at our disposal thatare incredible levers, that I
(34:45):
could easily see how places candiscount the importance of doing
things and why that buildsgreat resilience and sort of
skills that help in the broadsense.
So I love that.
How do you think about talentand staffing management?
You've got some, I think,geographic, unique aspects of
where you are in the country,combined with those five
(35:07):
campuses, all of which haveslightly different fields but
sort of feed into a broaderumbrella.
How do you think about sort oftalent and staff management to
sort of get teams that are up tothe skill and caliber to
deliver on your end product?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yeah, that's a really great question and, again,
we're in an incredibleopportunity.
I know you're in Europe, in theNorthland, I'm here in the
South, the South, our region.
We're in the northern part ofGeorgia, so, as the crow flies,
(35:53):
we're about an hour and a halfnorth of Atlanta.
We're in the mountains, in thefoothills of the Appalachians.
It's beautiful here, by the way.
It's gorgeous but it'saccessible, it's easy to get to.
So it's an attractivedestination and I think the
dynamics of Georgia are allowingfor more growth.
(36:15):
Georgia continues to grow, asdoes the region, and for all of
the reasons we all know about, Ithink today that is changing.
(36:36):
We're still a publicinstitution.
We still have challenges withthe best way we can attract
people, because we do havelimitations that a public has.
But, by and large, we arelooking for people that want to
(36:57):
be a part of disrupting thisvalue proposition, that want to
be a part of this vision of youknow, 388 years, lots of success
, lots of progress.
But we now need to flip it anddisrupt it and move it forward,
and we're finding people thatwant to be a part of that with
(37:20):
our staff.
You know, you think about staffat a university, and these are
small cities.
We have everything from peoplewho run infrastructure, we have
a police department, we havecooks and bakers and candlestick
makers.
I mean we have it all here.
Uh, we have, you know, academicstaff, professionals who are
(37:42):
experienced in, you know,student engagement, student
success, academic advising allof the inner workings that allow
a university to flourish.
And, of course, key to all ofthis is our faculty.
We need people to stand infront of students and inspire
(38:02):
them towards this vision andpush them to do hard things, and
so our value proposition ishigh, because I think we have a
vision that people are excitedor getting excited about.
And most of what we talkedabout, mike is, you know, pretty
new.
We've been here, like I said,17 months.
Um, we've been really talking alot about this the last, you
(38:23):
know, three to six months, and Ithink that's starting to catch
on.
Um, it's a great place to live.
It's a great place to raise afamily.
The weather's good.
I mean, I would argue myweather is better.
Know my, you know, as I thinkabout a risk register because
I'm the president, I'm also aCEO of a major organization, a
(38:43):
multi, you know, hundreds ofmillions of dollars organization
.
You know I always worry aboutthe health and fidelity of our
(39:04):
team, of our people, and workingat a place like this is very
missional, mike.
It's not an eight hour a daydeal.
You know, people leave but theygo home and they turn back on
again and that's something thatkeeps me up at night and, look,
I'm just as bad.
But I tell people all the timedon't be like Mike, because
Mike's expected to be like this,because it's part of this role.
(39:27):
You know, I mean I'm I'm goingevery day, 12 hours a day,
because I'm going to events, I'mspeaking to groups, I'm all
over.
You know, I'm with donors, I'mwith our, with our athletics
programs, um, but what I worryabout is is uh, how do we
continue to build people?
Because the the young generationis recognizing that.
(39:51):
The good news is, the youngergeneration is recognizing that
there is more to life than work.
You know, live to work or workto live, and I think they're
getting in the middle of thatand they're reconciling with
that.
Now some would argue it's tooextreme and so what we're trying
to do is calibrate.
That is because we talk toyoung people.
(40:13):
But what I think about is it'snot staffing now, it's staffing
over the next five to 10 years.
You know, whoever sits in thischair and it probably won't be
me, because these things don'tlast forever but, that being
said, how do we grow ageneration of people that want
to serve in this way?
So you know, something I thinkabout all the time is talking to
(40:35):
our students about hey, maybeyou want to be a part of this
higher ed industry, and it's agreat industry and it's an
inspiring industry.
But yeah, there is nothinghigher in my risk register than
our people.
I think about that more than Ithink even about safety, because
we're in an environment wheresafety is pretty favorable for
(40:56):
our community.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Really, yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, it's just such achallenge.
And so then I think Waze sortof had me on the mind of you
know you've got these incrediblepeople?
How do you support them?
How do you do the different ofyou know?
You've got these incrediblepeople.
How do you support them?
How do you train them?
How do you do the pieces thatyou're talking about?
If you could just wave a magicwand and just sort of fix
anything potentially for theteams, what would it be?
(41:20):
Short of just sort of givingthis windfall of money.
But if you could sort of haveone magic fix, what do you think
that would be?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know everybody wants to goto money.
You know money doesn't alwayssolve everything.
You know great organizationswho have failed have had plenty
of money and I think that'salways a lesson that leaders of
(41:50):
organizations especially.
You know multi-tens of hundredsof million dollar organizations
like this one, you need toremember.
It's not money isn't generallythe fix.
I want to invent time.
(42:11):
I want to invent time, and Isay that jokingly, but I think
time is just as big of an enemyagainst us now.
It's bigger than money.
You know we can create our owneconomy here and that's what
we're doing.
We're changing this economy.
(42:31):
We're changing this economy forour students.
By the way, um and people havebeen talking about it a lot
lately eab has just done somephenomenal work on this just
recently um, the number onething in the minds of students
and parents, and the minds ofparents relative to students, is
money.
It's about the, the cost, it'sabout scholarships, it's about
(42:52):
money and I said, like I saidyesterday with our leadership
team.
I said, look, we have to takemoney off the table, we have to
make that.
So that's not a problem.
And I believe you know, beingin the most vibrant economy in
the world and the richestcountry that's ever lived, we
(43:14):
can solve the economy problem.
So to your point, I think moneyis, whether it's for our
students, their economy or oureconomy as an organization.
But I think time is my biggestconcern, you know, and when I
first got here, literally fromthe first week, I talked about
running out of time and itdawned on me, mike and I'll tell
(43:35):
you a short story, and I knowwe're almost at time.
But let me just tell you ashort story.
The human life is really short.
The human life is really reallyshort, and I think you always
hear this growing up from olderpeople, your grandparents, your
aunts and uncles and when youget there like we are getting
(43:56):
there, and again I'm in my 50syou start to really realize it.
And I realized it from the spanof my career in the Army, you
know, and I retired from theArmy, army, which is hilarious
when you're in your 40s to say,yeah, I'm retired, um, but I
remember vividly, like I was ayoung army officer, I was a
(44:18):
second lieutenant and that'swhere you start and your boss,
about two levels up, is a, is alieutenant colonel, a battalion
commander.
It's about 7 800, 800 people,and I remember vividly Mike
standing there in a formation.
All the soldiers were there andthe battalion commander's
talking this is a big deal,right?
(44:40):
This is the boss, right?
And I'm sitting there thinking,man, this guy is a dinosaur,
this guy is older than dirt bythe way, this guy was probably
38 or 39 years old.
This guy is a dinosaur and I amso young.
(45:03):
Flash forward, you know, 17years later, and I'm one of them
.
Flash forward, you know, 17years later, and I'm one of them
.
I am a.
You know, I wasn't a battalioncommander, but I was at that
level.
I went intocounterproliferation and did
some other things in the Army,but I was at that level and at
(45:24):
that level of seniority in Armytime and I am like holy cow, I
am now the dinosaur.
And then, fast forward, I'mretiring, I'm retiring, I am
retiring.
And it dawned on me, mike,you're running out of time, you
are running out of time.
And from that moment forward,which was, by the way, nine
(45:45):
years ago, and from that momentforward, which was, by the way,
nine years ago, I have had thissense of urgency about how I
think, about everything that Ido with my family, with my
amazing life, with my fouramazing kids, and how I think
professionally.
And I think that's our biggestchallenge.
(46:05):
If I could change anythingBecause, mike, I want to do so
much and I only have so muchtime to do it and, as you know,
a lot of these things take timeand, by the way, I am anti the
theory.
Well, it's going to take a longtime to get that done.
I don't believe in any of that.
I want to disrupt that too.
(46:26):
Because, by the way way, wetalked all this whole time about
compressed timelines.
Right, everyone's operating incompression mainly because of
these and because of thisintensity of the climb of
technology, and so I believe thethe biggest thing that anybody
(46:47):
in my role has to work on is howdo you get things done as
rapidly as you can?
That doesn't mean you're notthoughtful, that doesn't mean
you're not logical, that doesn'tmean you're not doing good
strategic things.
But you have got to move.
You cannot admire the problemLike.
You have got to look at theproblem, diagnose it, and you've
(47:08):
got to go, because this time isgetting shorter and shorter and
shorter, and so that's what Iwould do operationally.
Yeah, money would be great.
I don't even care about themoney, I care about the time,
and I talk about it all the timewith our senior leaders here is
we got a lot to do and we don'thave a lot of time to do it.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Very well said.
I think that's a great place toend it, mike.
Thank you, this has beenamazing.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
My pleasure and thank you for the opportunity.
And again, we're very honoredto deliver the mission and work
of the University of NorthGeorgia, and so we'd love to
continue the conversation, mike,on any of these topics.
As you can tell, I get a littlebit excited about this stuff.
Same here, thank you.
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