January 20, 2025 • 39 mins
What makes a university truly unique? And how do you scale trust in a crowded higher ed market?
In this episode, I sit down with Nuno Fernandes, President of American Public University System (APUS), to uncover the secrets behind their success as the #1 educator of U.S. service members and veterans.
We dive into:
- The power of doubling down on your "core DNA."
- Why most universities struggle with differentiation—and what they can do to stand out.
- How APUS is building a personalized, 21st-century education platform for the modern learner.
This conversation is a must-listen for anyone in higher ed looking to combine mission with innovation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I'm here with Nuno .
Thanks so much for being withme today, nuno.
My pleasure, mike, thank youfor inviting me.
Well, you've got such anincredible background and
there's so many places that Ithink we could start.
But maybe just to sort of givea little bit of insight into who
you were before you stepped inas president and leader of the
(00:20):
American public universitysystem and leader of the
American public universitysystem, can you contextualize
the differences between runninga company like Illumina and the
work that you're doing now aspresident of the American public
university system?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's a good question.
So I've worked in education nowfor almost 14 years, 11 years,
almost 11 years with Illumino,which at the time was the
largest OPM in the world interms of managed students.
(00:57):
At our peak we had 300,000students plus minus in many
countries around the world,students plus minus in many
countries around the world.
And then, during COVID, we, youknow, through some affiliated
companies, we started expandinginto other parts of the world as
well, not only Latin Americaand one of the things that I've
(01:17):
learned, you know, one of themost interesting things that
I've learned, is that we wereobviously serving our clients
were the universities, right?
So we were serving theuniversities and then
representing some of theirprograms and serving their
students on their behalf.
And one of the things that I'velearned is that every time you
talk to a university, everyuniversity is going to tell you
(01:38):
that they're special, thatthere's something unique about
them and their history and theiracademic quality and the way
they teach, and in many waysit's true, but every university
is going to tell you thatthey're special.
And then the second thing isthat every country is going to
tell you that they're different.
In my country, we do thingsdifferently.
This is how we do it here, andwhen you work with many, many
(02:01):
countries, like I did, you startrealizing that, yes, there are
differences, but also there area lot of similarities.
And the questions aroundregulation, around quality,
around the way you serve ourstudents, around the way you
attract the students, around theway you manage your brands or
(02:23):
you don't it's very similar indifferent parts around the way
you manage your brands, or youdon't?
It's very similar in differentparts around the world.
So I started realizing thatit's almost like when you put a
lot of pieces of paper on top ofeach other and if you align
them perfectly, they all lookexactly the same, but if not
perfectly aligned, the cornersmight be off.
And that's how I see thedifference between countries and
(02:44):
universities that it'sessentially kind of the same,
but some of the corners might beoff.
And that's how I see thedifference between countries and
universities that you know it'sessentially kind of the same,
but some of the corners might bedifferent.
So I've learned that atIllumino and that was very
helpful.
And when I started working withthe American public university
system as their president inSeptember of 2022, I've been
living in the US for almost 12years.
So you know I've been living inthe US for almost 12 years, so
(03:06):
you know I was familiar with thesystem and I was familiar.
You know I've been followinghigher education in the US very
closely, but I never reallyworked with an American school
before, so it was interesting tofind that that kind of logic
that I just described alsoapplies in the US.
Right that you know a lot ofpeople say well, in the US we do
(03:26):
things differently and you knowthis is special and that is
special.
And you know, in many ways itis true that a lot of things are
different, but it's also truethat many things are similar and
I think that's a consequence ofeducation, higher education,
being highly regulated aroundthe world, and in many cases, I
think, for the right reasons.
(03:47):
And when you have a highlyregulated industry, then
certainly you will have a lot ofsimilarities when you operate
in different geographies.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's such a great insight and that's something
that I think we've allexperienced right.
Everybody you know you look atthese individual schools and the
value proposition that they'renaming the unique history like
when you break it down like allof them actually like, look
really similar and so many ofthem are contracting with the
same kinds of firms or the samefirms.
(04:18):
So when it comes to this sortof differentiation, you're not
really seeing a lot.
How do you think?
I think you all have reallysort of positioned yourself in a
super unique fashion.
So many places talk aboutpositioning and finding the you
know and signaling to the righttype of student.
You all have seemed to havedone that really effectively.
(04:42):
How do you think about thissort of broader positioning
question?
Because it's just so noisy andso crowded.
You all seem to be doing thatbetter than others.
How do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I would describe.
You know it's twofold, right?
So first, the general answer isthat when you talk to
universities around the worldand also in the US, they will
tell you all the things that arespecial about them.
But most of the times,ironically, the community does
not perceive thatdifferentiation.
You know, it's almost like youare inside a house and you feel
(05:18):
that you're incredibly special.
But when you go outside thehouse you know nobody cares.
And that happens a lot ineducation.
And you know because most, mostuniversities, they have a rich
history and you know.
And then some of them werefounded, you know, in outside
the us they have sometimesfamily history, so they're
founded by a family and then thefamily is incredibly proud, as
they should be, of what theybuilt.
Right.
(05:39):
But sometimes the universitiescreate their, their own stories
and their own positioning thatis not necessarily perceived by
the market as they intend to.
And what happens is that mostuniversities they end up having
some kind of neutral positioning.
People don't really know whatis special about them or why
(05:59):
they should choose university Aover university B, university A
over university B.
And then the fallacy, I think,is that a lot of times people in
this industry, in highereducation.
They always go back to the IvyLeague to try to make a case
(06:19):
about whatever they want to makea case, and I think that's not
ideal, because Ivy Leagueuniversities they represent 1%
of the enrollments in the UnitedStates and they are a category
in itself and, in many ways,something to admire and
appreciate.
But they have a certain dynamicand way of behaving and the way
(06:41):
they manage their brands andtheir institutions that it's
very unique to them and youcannot replicate that to, let's
say, a university that is not inthat category.
Now, there's nothing wrong withbeing outside that category,
but you have to realize thatit's different and the example I
always use, you know, to bringit to, to make it more real for
(07:03):
people that might be listening,that don't really understand how
higher education works indetail, is you know, if you are
Ferrari, you're not particularlyworried about Toyota.
I assume you know you're notsitting in board meetings
worried about what Toyota isdoing next and what car they're
about to launch.
I assume you know you're goingto be worried about your
(07:24):
Lamborghini and Bentley andRolls Royce and things like that
, but if you are Toyota, you'realso not worried about Ferrari.
You don't really care what halfa million dollar car they're
doing next.
It's not what concerns you.
I mean, I assume they'reconcerned about Nissan and Ford
and Kia and Tesla now and thingslike that, but that doesn't
mean that Ferrari is a betterbrand than Toyota.
(07:49):
In fact, one could argue that,you know, toyota is a much
bigger business than Ferrari andhas a lot more value in terms
of, you know, revenue thanFerrari.
But both of them are incrediblebrands, right, and both of them
are within their category.
They are highly respectedbrands, but it's not that one is
better than the other.
It's just that they'redifferent and they're serving
(08:10):
different audiences.
And with universities, I think,um, that that kind of logic does
not always prevail because, um,a lot of universities around
the world not in the us, youknow they try to copy a model
that is not meant for them.
And when you talk aboutdifferentiation, you know you
really have to find and now I'mgoing to go back to APUS, which
(08:31):
was the second part of herquestion you really have to find
what's unique about you andwhat people can identify as
being something specific to yourbrand and that you do really
well.
And in our case, what'sspecific about us is that we are
really good educating activeduty service members.
That's how we started.
The university started morethan 30 years ago.
(08:54):
It was founded by a MarineCorps veteran that wanted to
create a university for themilitary, and that's what it did
and that's part of our DNA andit still is part of our DNA and
I think it will always be partof our DNA.
Now it doesn't mean that wedidn't evolve.
We did, but we always stayedloyal to our DNA.
So today we are the number oneeducator of servicemen and
(09:17):
servicewomen in the UnitedStates.
We're also the number oneeducator of veterans in the
United States in terms of GIBill usage.
But we also started expandinginto quote-unquote non-military
students, but by using our corestrength, which is to offer
advantageous tuitions to peoplethat are in a military family or
(09:39):
in a veteran family.
So what that means is that wehave a preferred price for
military folks.
We have a preferred price formilitary folks.
We have a preferred price forveterans and we extend that
price to anyone in theirfamilies, as long as it's a
direct family member, to anyonein their families that want to
study with us.
We respect that price.
Even if you're not a militaryperson or a veteran, you will
get the advantage of thatpreferred price, very similar to
(10:02):
what you know USAA does, doeskind of like with their
insurances, right, that theyextend the price to the families
of the veterans.
So we do the same in ouruniversity to the families
affected through the families ofveterans, and that is allowing
us to expand with what would beconsidered non-traditional
military students, becausethey're not military, they just
(10:22):
happen to be in a militaryfamily so.
But we remain loyal to our coreDNA and you know we call it grow
from the core, and our core isthat we are really good at
educating military and veterans.
That's what we do and we're veryproud of that and that's why
we're number one and we want tocontinue being number one.
(10:43):
But we also want to expand,offering the quality education
that we have for a veryaffordable tuition to their
service members.
And I would argue and I'veasked this question many, many
times maybe there's anotheruniversity out there that offers
that same benefit where ouractive duty students they can
study for $250 per credit hour.
(11:05):
It's a very discounted tuitiongraduate and graduate.
There's a small fee on thegraduate level but the price per
credit hour is $250.
So what we do is that we tellyou know what, if you have an
active duty member in yourfamily, you can also study for
$250.
You know, if you are the spouse, if you are the son, the
daughter, the parents, thedaughter, the parents, the
(11:25):
brother, the sister, and I wouldyou know, I would like to see
if there's another university inthe United States that offer
that kind of benefit to militaryfamilies.
I haven't seen that.
You know it's possible that itexists, but it's not common for
sure.
How do you?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
message that that's such a brilliant value
proposition because you're notjust supporting the, the person
themselves, you're supportingthe entire network and
infrastructure with their familyyes how does that messaging
work?
Are you talking marketingthrough the service member, or
are you going, or do you haveother ways to get that, or how
do you?
How do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
yes, we've, we've um, this is something that we've
been expanding, or let's say,developing and expanding over
the last two years and initiallyin 2023 and part of 2024, we've
we've started offering thatbenefit to the members of the
apus community, meaning, youknow, if you are a student today
(12:21):
, your family gets this benefit,or if you are an alumni
graduate, your family gets thisbenefit, or if you are an alumni
graduate, your family gets thisbenefit as well, and we've had
tremendous success with that.
So then we thought, well, whyare we limiting ourselves to
offer this benefit just to ourstudents?
We can offer this to anybody,and it doesn't matter if you
decide to study somewhere elseas a family member, as a
(12:42):
military person, your family canstill benefit from that.
You know, we would like tooffer that benefit to everyone,
and we do so this year.
Just a few months ago, westarted with active marketing
initiatives that promote thisdiscounted tuition for families
of veterans and active dutyservice members.
(13:02):
We started promoting that inthe open market just a few
months ago and we will continueto do that, because we believe
it's something very unique aboutus.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
That is really really unique and really really cool
to hear.
What are some of the challengesconnected to involving in the
attention?
I mean, you have such a, Ithink, a unique way that you're
serving.
You have that sort ofdifferentiation.
But I have to assume, like, Imean, you know, getting the
numbers to work where you wantthem, to, balancing all this
sort of infrastructure pieceswith the diversity of programs
(13:32):
that you have it's a heavy lift.
So how do you think about thosepieces?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, I would like to , you know, also divide the
question into sections, if youallow me.
So number one is and sometimesin education, and especially in
for-profit education, we talk alot about enrollments and growth
and things like that, and it'sincredibly important because we
(13:59):
believe in our mission, so wewant to expand access to higher
education to as many students aswe can, but I believe that we
can't forget what we're doinghere, and what we're doing here
is educating people that trustyou.
You know, with their time, withtheir money, with their
education.
Sometimes they trust you knowit's their trust and their
family's trust.
So one of the challenges, Ibelieve, of every university,
(14:24):
including ourselves, is how doyou ensure that the quality of
what you're doing is what itshould be?
How do you ensure that theeducation you're providing to
your students is one that isgoing to be recognized in the
marketplace and that, hopefully,is going to make them
successful?
You know the quality of yourcontent improving.
(14:47):
You know the quality of yourfaculty, attracting great
faculty people that would liketo work with us to make sure
that what we do for our studentsis aligned with the
expectations that they have, andI think that's very important
(15:08):
because we can never forget whatwe're doing here and we are
educating people right, and it'sone of the things if you really
think about it, mike that Ithink it's one of the greatest
acts of trust that the humanbeing can do is to say, okay,
I'm going to trust you with myeducation.
It's a big deal, right, so?
So we take that very, veryseriously and and we've been
investing significantly inimproving our content, expanding
(15:32):
our portfolio, expanding ourtechnology platform.
And that brings me to the secondpart of the question, which is
the challenges with growth andenrollment, which, quite frankly
, I think we've been fortunatein a way, because we grew in
2022, we grew in 2023, and weare growing in 2024.
(15:56):
And we are part of a publiclytraded company, so our numbers
are public.
So there's nothing that I cantell you here that cannot be
verified, but it is challengingfor different reasons.
So the first reason is that thenumber of enlisted service
members is declining right inthe military, and that's, you
know, that's a bigger challengethan just with education, but
(16:18):
you have less enlisted membersand then, within that population
, you have a smaller percentageof enlisted members that is
attending higher education.
So what it means is that youhave to be really, really good
to attract the ones that want tostudy and to try to ensure that
they choose your universityover others.
(16:39):
And I think we've beensuccessful with that because
we're still the number oneeducator by far of that audience
and we're incredibly proud ofthat.
But we invest a lot.
You know we have a lot ofpeople out there visiting the
installations making sure thatthey provide relevant
information to to the potentialstudents, that they provide
(17:02):
adequate information to anyonethat might be interested in
studying with, with americanUniversity or American Military
University.
It's a large investment.
We have a large number ofpeople that work at APUS.
Their job is to providerelevant information for those
that are thinking aboutattending higher education.
(17:23):
Also, the higher educationmarket in general, as you know,
is not growing right, so youhave and I think it will
continue to decline overall fordifferent reasons, which is an
that's also an entirely adifferent topic, but we can
address it.
You have, on one side, you haveless people entering the system
, right, so you have lessyounger kids graduating high
(17:45):
school and so they have lesspeople entering the system, and
then, at the same time, you have, I think, a perception of
higher education in the generalmarket, with the general
population, that it's not.
That has been declining interms of reputation and even the
need of having a degree.
(18:06):
Right, and I think the reasonfor that is is, um, that the the
tuition is becoming soexpensive and over the last 20
years the tuition increasedsomething like 300 percent and
and it's becoming so expensivethat a lot of people are
thinking, well, do I really wantto do this?
(18:27):
Like, do I really want to youspend four years inside the
classroom and then end up withhundreds of thousands of dollars
of that?
And you know, I want to getmarried, I want to have kids, I
want to start a family Like, doI really want to do this?
Does it make sense?
And the funny thing is that ifyou look at the data, it
actually makes sense.
You know, because the datashows that if you have a higher
(18:48):
education degree, a bachelor'sdegree, the revenue you will
generate over your lifetime ismore than double than the
revenue that you generate if youonly have a high school degree.
But the perception is that thecost is becoming so expensive
that some people are thinking,if this is something that makes
sense and I understand itbecause it's it's it's a, it's a
(19:09):
real problem.
So I would say that we found weface the same challenges as
most schools, but but we have aspecific challenge of because of
our military students, right,they um, they have they, they
behave in a, in a, in aparticular way.
But uh, all in all, as I said,you know, we've been, we've been
growing in 23, we're in 24,it's in 23, and we're growing in
(19:33):
24.
And it doesn't mean that it'seasy, but it's certainly
possible.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
No, I mean, I think you're saying really, really
good things.
I think the core focus on yourproducts and delivering an
amazing service and the amountof work that you've really put
into that, I think stands out,and knowing it and knowing the
challenges that your base has, Ithink is part of the reason
(19:59):
that you're just continuing tosort of see this, this growth.
Um, how do you approach thetalent and the staffing
management pieces?
I mean, you're in a reallycompetitive geographic location
you have a really sort of uniqueniche.
You're in a really competitivegeographic location.
You have a really sort ofunique niche that you're doing
and then you've got, you know, abig online presence that you
(20:20):
have to sort of scale andinfrastructure.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
So can you talk?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
on those pieces of it , because I think it's really
sort of unique in this space.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I mean we have a very unique situation.
First of all, we are 100%online.
So we have a campus inCharlestown, west Virginia,
which is our main and onlycampus which is beautiful, by
the way but we don't really havestudents there the 50 states
(20:48):
and then we have students inmany countries around the world
and after COVID, we haveessentially been working
remotely.
So everyone is working remotely.
That means that if you want togo to the office in Charleston,
west Virginia, you're free to dothat, but most people decide
not to and most people areworking in a different state, a
(21:12):
different city.
Right, I'm talking now fromMiami, florida.
So that's been, I would not say,challenging, but it's been
interesting because I've alwaysworked in international
environments, right, with myinitial part of my career with
Bosch.
You know this incrediblecompany with.
You know more than I don't know200, 300 locations around the
(21:36):
world and different countries.
So it was very internationaland you know you always, you get
used very early, you know timezones and things like that and
multiple languages.
And then with Illumino it wasall kind of the same.
You know in a much smallerscale, but you know different
countries, different time zones.
So you know we were doing a lotof, you know, zoom and teams
(21:57):
meetings or no skype back then,before it was a thing, just
because we were spread out, youknow, in in different places.
But I was going to the officeand I've always.
You know I, before covid, Inever imagined a world without
an office.
You know it just, it was justpart of my reality and I assume
for most people it was like that.
But in our case I think itworks fine the way it is right
(22:21):
now, just because we've, youknow, we are fully online and
our students are fully onlineand and our faculty has been
spread out.
Historically, you know, we'vehad faculty all over the country
and sometimes internationally,so it's not new for us.
What has been new for us isthat I've learned that you know
(22:43):
you can operate well for thisparticular, you know, for this
particular university, we canoperate well in a remote
environment.
I would question that, if youare working, you know where,
heavily with heavy engineeringor heavy research or, you know,
trying to build highly complexmachines or cars or things like
(23:04):
that, if you could, if you could, operate in an entirely remote
environment, I think, if you'retrying to build a space rocket
or build a new car or build somesophisticated machine, you
probably need some face-to-facetime with the engineers and
people designing the products,but in our case it works really
(23:27):
well.
In our case it works reallywell and in fact one could argue
that it works better, becausethe satisfaction of our students
has been improving over thelast three years.
The satisfaction of ouremployees, staff and faculty has
been improving over the lasttwo years, so one could argue
that it's working better in thatsense.
(23:48):
Right, if those are theoutcomes that you measure.
Of course, it comes with adownside, right, and I think the
biggest downside, quite frankly, is the lack of, you know,
human interaction, real humaninteraction, right?
Just like having a coffee, youknow, having lunch together or
getting together after work.
Spend some you know just time,or getting together after work.
(24:10):
Spend some you know just timejust chatting in the hallway.
You miss that and I thinkthere's a value to that to build
relationships and to build adifferent level of trust,
sometimes that it's harder toget when you are in a fully
online environment.
So, to your question with ourmanagement team, with our
(24:30):
leadership team, we try to gettogether, let's say, every three
months, and we try to spend,you know, a few days together,
and usually with the the realreason of, you know, addressing
some real issue or addressingsome real project, or but also
with the intention of justspending time together and
unfortunately, we we really likebeing around each other, so
(24:51):
it's most of the times it'sreally fun no, that's really
cool.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
How do you, how do you keep teams motivated and
engaged in the in that disparateenvironment, because this is
just something that I feel likeso many leaders are struggling
with right now.
Or and you've got this, whetherit's a hybrid or a fully remote
workforce, you have people thatcare about the mission, but
it's.
It's easy to sort of getdisengaged to your point right
when you're not in person.
(25:14):
How do you think about that sortof motivation, team building
kind of pieces to keep everybodysort of focused on the bigger
goals that you have as aninstitution?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
yeah, I think, for companies, you know, if you
think about google and I'm justusing these because I know that
they're they were really big onreal estate and I visited some
google facilities, right, andthey were incredible.
They had, like, you know,swimming pools and you know
things like that, and and gyms,and and you know, free food and
(25:45):
free drinks and you know it wasincredible to be able to access
those facilities, and so Iimagine that, for I assume,
apple is very similar and I knowthat they're trying to go back
to the you know, quote unquotenormal office routine, because I
assume that for them it's veryimportant to have that physical
(26:06):
presence to you know, to developthe products that they do.
As I said, you know, whenyou're talking about highly
sophisticated things thatinvolve programming, a bunch of
engineers working together, Ithink you probably need that
face time.
One of the good things abouteducation is that most people
that work in education, they'revery driven by the mission of,
you know, helping others havingaccess to a better life and to
(26:31):
improve their lives and theirfamilies' lives.
So a lot of people they'redriven by the mission, so that's
good and that helps.
Regardless of where you'resitting, people are still
committed to that mission.
But we've done a few things andit doesn't mean that it's
perfect, but we've done a fewthings.
So when I started in Septemberof 2022, we developed a set of
(26:53):
values that are 12 values ofthings that are important for us
as a management team and,coincidentally, they are 12.
So now every month, werecognize, you know, the team
members that better representthat value and it's like a
competition and people canrecommend others and you know.
And then we have a small notceremony, but every month we
(27:13):
recognize them.
We send an email, we put thaton social media, we put the
photos, so we recognize thestaff and faculty every month
that better represents thatvalue.
One example could be one of thevalues like we move fast,
meaning that we make decisionsfast and we implement them fast
and we try to see if they areworking fast and if not, then we
move on to the next one.
(27:33):
So you know a specific month ofthe year there's a celebration
of we move fast and you knowthere's a person that is going
to represent that.
So that's one example.
Another example is we'vedeveloped an event called Be
Great, which is every year.
We have commencement, usuallyaround May.
(27:54):
National Harbor usuallyNational Harbor and we have
thousands of people attendingthe commencement.
Last year we had 16,000 people,so it's a big, big event.
But we take the opportunitythat we have a lot of our staff
and our faculty there, because alot of people volunteer to work
right, which is really great tosee.
So we have a lot of our staffand our faculty there because a
lot of people volunteer to workright, which is really great to
see.
So we have a lot of peoplethere and we create this big,
(28:14):
great event, which is an eventwhere we give awards to the
people that represented eitherthe values or that achieved the
highest results in a given year,and most of the awards are
related to students' success,academic success, but it's a
really fun event and it's ablack tie and everyone dresses
up and, uh, you know, kind ofred carpet, kind of thing, and
(28:35):
you know, when we give awards to, to, to the winners and they
walk on stage and take, for it'sa very like glamorous night for
like a for better word, butit's something that we did also
to celebrate the ones that are,you know, making a difference in
serving our students.
So small things like that.
I don't think there's a formulathat you can say Mike, you know
(28:57):
, do A, b, c and you're going todo well.
It's just more, you know, justtrying to learn what is
important for your team, andthis might vary depending on the
team, certainly, but we justtry to recognize them and to
make them feel special, you know, and make them feel that they
are making a difference becausethey are.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I love those themes and I really like the theme as
well, I think, something that'sunderappreciated and I think a
lot of people could really learnfrom.
So shifting gears a little bit.
How do you think aboutleveraging data and technology
in your platform?
This is a space where I thinkyou all stand on the shoulders
(29:42):
of others.
But what's that look like,what's that approach for you all
?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, I mean, I've been working with data all my
life to support making decisionsand to support understanding
what is relevant for the onesthat are using our services, and
I've done that in all my career.
You know the advantage now isthat, especially for us being an
online university, we have alot of data and also could be
(30:13):
also dangerous, becausesometimes there's so much data
that you say what is reallyrelevant, like what should I
look at?
And sometimes you know you haveto be careful not to, you know,
get buried with.
You know, with all this data,that sometimes it's kind of
meaningless or not so relevantfor decision making.
But certainly we use data and Igo back to the point that I
(30:36):
made just a while ago, which isit's not only about the
enrollment right, it's not onlyabout how many students you get.
It's mostly about how well areyou serving them, how satisfied
are they, how good of educationare they receiving, how
effective is our faculty.
So, for example, in the POS,we've developed something called
(31:01):
Student Satisfaction Index,which we measure every month and
we ask a set of 10 questions tothe students once they complete
their courses.
And it's you know, it'svoluntary, it's not mandatory,
but we have participation ratesevery month, you know, anywhere
between 15 to 20 percent.
So it's statistically relevantbecause we have thousands of
(31:21):
students and and we ask them 10questions, and then that 10
questions they create an indexand that index, you know, from
zero to 100, and every month wemeasure per course how satisfied
our students are with thatparticular course.
And the questions havedifferent dimensions.
It could be about, you know,the academic, the quality of the
content.
It could be about the supportof the faculty.
(31:41):
It could be about the academic,the quality of the content.
It could be about the supportof the faculty.
It could be about the relevancyof that content in the job
market, so on and so forth.
So it's 10 questions and thenevery month we report per course
.
So every faculty person knowsokay how their course is doing
from a student's perspective.
That's really important.
And when we have a bad resultwe immediately act on it and say
(32:03):
, well, what is it that thestudent is not liking?
And we try to address it andtry to improve it.
And it's been proven to be avery, very effective model.
Another thing we do is wemeasure a certain set of
variables related to faculty inthe way that our students are
served.
You know how long does it taketo grade an exam, how long does
(32:24):
it take to answer a question,how long does it?
The quality of the interactionsbetween faculty and students?
And we do these always with thesame guiding principle that we
are all here to serve ourstudents and we are all here to
provide a great learningexperience and hopefully, with
great outcomes for our studentsbecause they trust us with their
education.
So I think that data you know.
(32:46):
Certainly you know mostuniversities.
If you ask and I would assumethat if you ask most university
leaders, they will immediatelygo about.
You know leads and conversionrates and things like that.
And and I mean I get it and youknow I'm.
I have a background inmarketing myself, so I'm not
ignoring that, but I'm sayingthat I think more important than
(33:08):
that is what are we doing tomake sure that our students are
pleased, and not only that theyare pleased, but that we're
trying to continuously improvethat experience, and that's what
we're focusing on.
I love that Ten questions andthen the other continuously
improve that experience, andthat's what we're focusing on.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, I love that 10-question framework, and then
the other metrics that you took,like faculty advocacy.
I mean it just connects sodeeply to your brain and to some
of sort of what we spoke aboutbefore you sort of differentiate
in such a current space.
So to me I mean those are justlike layering, you know, you're
(33:47):
sort of in differentiation, andall those sort of other pieces
of building on your strengthsand lovely.
Maybe, maybe as a place to close, because I know that we're
butting up against time here.
If you could fix anythingmagically, just wave a wand and
just have one big fixoperationally for APUS, what do
(34:10):
you think that would be?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, we have large ambitions in terms of creating a
platform that is what we call a21st century platform that
truly will provide digitaleducation, meaning that, ideally
, we can provide a personalizedexperience to each student.
That's what I would love to do,what the team would love to do.
I think education is going tomove in that direction
(34:35):
regardless, because it's justkind of the expectation of the
modern student, and it will beso more and more into the future
, I believe.
So if you think abouteverything you do, mike, today,
with technology, right, you knowsomething as simple as your
Netflix.
If you go, if I go into yourNetflix, you know it's going to
recommend you things that aredifferent than whatever Netflix
(34:58):
is recommending me, just becausethey believe that you're going
to like a few things and I'mgoing to like some other things.
And if you go into your Spotify, it's the same, and your Amazon
is the same.
And not even to talk aboutsocial media, the algorithm is
recommending whatever thingsthat you're going to interact
with.
But if you bring that logic toeducation, what it means is that
(35:20):
every person is slightlydifferent in the way they learn
right, and some people mightlearn better by watching videos.
Some people might learn betterby reading.
Some people might learn betterby listening.
Some people might learn betterby combining all of the above.
Some people might learn better,you know, interacting with
other humans.
Some people might learn betterby themselves.
(35:41):
So everyone is a bit different.
But, however, the academicjourney for most students is
exactly the same.
If I enroll in an MBA and youenroll in the same program,
(36:02):
we're going to do the exact samecourses, follow the exact same
logic, follow the exact samerhythm, have the exact same
exams and hopefully have theexact same logic for the exact
same rhythm, have the exact sameexams and hopefully have the
exact same outcome.
And I think there's anopportunity there to disrupt
this with technology, which isthat you know, if you are, let's
say, we're both studyingmarketing and you know.
It just happens to be that Iwas a cmo before, so you know,
whatever we're learning, it'skind of basic to me, but to you
it's something new becauseyou've never done it.
So why should I spend time, youknow, learning something that I
(36:24):
already know?
I can just move on to somethingelse.
Or let's say, if we had a youknow an exam and it was about,
let's say, the second world war,and you had.
You know you failed something,but I didn't, then you know.
Most likely it would be good toprovide you some additional
material so that you understandwhy you failed the question and
(36:47):
learn whatever you're supposedto learn.
And I can move on because Ialready answered it.
So that kind of personalizationin higher education I think is
going to be the future, that youprovide a personalized program
and experience to each studentand that can only be done with
technology program andexperience to each student and
that can only be done withtechnology.
So if I had the possibility ofcreating something just by magic
(37:08):
, that's what I would like to do.
I love that answer and Idefinitely agree.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I think that's the future.
Neil, this has been amazing.
I can't thank you enough foryour time and insight and so
many gems that we've got.
So thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Of course, mike Pleasure being here, and thank
you again for inviting me.
So I'm here with Nuno .
Thanks so much for being withme today, nuno.
My pleasure, mike, thank youfor inviting me.
Well, you've got such anincredible background and
there's so many places that Ithink we could start.
But maybe just to sort of givea little bit of insight into who
you were before you stepped inas president and leader of the
(00:20):
American public universitysystem and leader of the
American public universitysystem, can you contextualize
the differences between runninga company like Illumina and the
work that you're doing now aspresident of the American public
university system?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's a good question.
So I've worked in education nowfor almost 14 years, 11 years,
almost 11 years with Illumino,which at the time was the
largest OPM in the world interms of managed students.
(00:57):
At our peak we had 300,000students plus minus in many
countries around the world,students plus minus in many
countries around the world.
And then, during COVID, we, youknow, through some affiliated
companies, we started expandinginto other parts of the world as
well, not only Latin Americaand one of the things that I've
(01:17):
learned, you know, one of themost interesting things that
I've learned, is that we wereobviously serving our clients
were the universities, right?
So we were serving theuniversities and then
representing some of theirprograms and serving their
students on their behalf.
And one of the things that I'velearned is that every time you
talk to a university, everyuniversity is going to tell you
(01:38):
that they're special, thatthere's something unique about
them and their history and theiracademic quality and the way
they teach, and in many waysit's true, but every university
is going to tell you thatthey're special.
And then the second thing isthat every country is going to
tell you that they're different.
In my country, we do thingsdifferently.
This is how we do it here, andwhen you work with many, many
(02:01):
countries, like I did, you startrealizing that, yes, there are
differences, but also there area lot of similarities.
And the questions aroundregulation, around quality,
around the way you serve ourstudents, around the way you
attract the students, around theway you manage your brands or
(02:23):
you don't it's very similar indifferent parts around the way
you manage your brands, or youdon't?
It's very similar in differentparts around the world.
So I started realizing thatit's almost like when you put a
lot of pieces of paper on top ofeach other and if you align
them perfectly, they all lookexactly the same, but if not
perfectly aligned, the cornersmight be off.
And that's how I see thedifference between countries and
(02:44):
universities that it'sessentially kind of the same,
but some of the corners might beoff.
And that's how I see thedifference between countries and
universities that you know it'sessentially kind of the same,
but some of the corners might bedifferent.
So I've learned that atIllumino and that was very
helpful.
And when I started working withthe American public university
system as their president inSeptember of 2022, I've been
living in the US for almost 12years.
So you know I've been living inthe US for almost 12 years, so
(03:06):
you know I was familiar with thesystem and I was familiar.
You know I've been followinghigher education in the US very
closely, but I never reallyworked with an American school
before, so it was interesting tofind that that kind of logic
that I just described alsoapplies in the US.
Right that you know a lot ofpeople say well, in the US we do
(03:26):
things differently and you knowthis is special and that is
special.
And you know, in many ways itis true that a lot of things are
different, but it's also truethat many things are similar and
I think that's a consequence ofeducation, higher education,
being highly regulated aroundthe world, and in many cases, I
think, for the right reasons.
(03:47):
And when you have a highlyregulated industry, then
certainly you will have a lot ofsimilarities when you operate
in different geographies.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's such a great insight and that's something
that I think we've allexperienced right.
Everybody you know you look atthese individual schools and the
value proposition that they'renaming the unique history like
when you break it down like allof them actually like, look
really similar and so many ofthem are contracting with the
same kinds of firms or the samefirms.
(04:18):
So when it comes to this sortof differentiation, you're not
really seeing a lot.
How do you think?
I think you all have reallysort of positioned yourself in a
super unique fashion.
So many places talk aboutpositioning and finding the you
know and signaling to the righttype of student.
You all have seemed to havedone that really effectively.
(04:42):
How do you think about thissort of broader positioning
question?
Because it's just so noisy andso crowded.
You all seem to be doing thatbetter than others.
How do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I would describe.
You know it's twofold, right?
So first, the general answer isthat when you talk to
universities around the worldand also in the US, they will
tell you all the things that arespecial about them.
But most of the times,ironically, the community does
not perceive thatdifferentiation.
You know, it's almost like youare inside a house and you feel
(05:18):
that you're incredibly special.
But when you go outside thehouse you know nobody cares.
And that happens a lot ineducation.
And you know because most, mostuniversities, they have a rich
history and you know.
And then some of them werefounded, you know, in outside
the us they have sometimesfamily history, so they're
founded by a family and then thefamily is incredibly proud, as
they should be, of what theybuilt.
Right.
(05:39):
But sometimes the universitiescreate their, their own stories
and their own positioning thatis not necessarily perceived by
the market as they intend to.
And what happens is that mostuniversities they end up having
some kind of neutral positioning.
People don't really know whatis special about them or why
(05:59):
they should choose university Aover university B, university A
over university B.
And then the fallacy, I think,is that a lot of times people in
this industry, in highereducation.
They always go back to the IvyLeague to try to make a case
(06:19):
about whatever they want to makea case, and I think that's not
ideal, because Ivy Leagueuniversities they represent 1%
of the enrollments in the UnitedStates and they are a category
in itself and, in many ways,something to admire and
appreciate.
But they have a certain dynamicand way of behaving and the way
(06:41):
they manage their brands andtheir institutions that it's
very unique to them and youcannot replicate that to, let's
say, a university that is not inthat category.
Now, there's nothing wrong withbeing outside that category,
but you have to realize thatit's different and the example I
always use, you know, to bringit to, to make it more real for
(07:03):
people that might be listening,that don't really understand how
higher education works indetail, is you know, if you are
Ferrari, you're not particularlyworried about Toyota.
I assume you know you're notsitting in board meetings
worried about what Toyota isdoing next and what car they're
about to launch.
I assume you know you're goingto be worried about your
(07:24):
Lamborghini and Bentley andRolls Royce and things like that
, but if you are Toyota, you'realso not worried about Ferrari.
You don't really care what halfa million dollar car they're
doing next.
It's not what concerns you.
I mean, I assume they'reconcerned about Nissan and Ford
and Kia and Tesla now and thingslike that, but that doesn't
mean that Ferrari is a betterbrand than Toyota.
(07:49):
In fact, one could argue that,you know, toyota is a much
bigger business than Ferrari andhas a lot more value in terms
of, you know, revenue thanFerrari.
But both of them are incrediblebrands, right, and both of them
are within their category.
They are highly respectedbrands, but it's not that one is
better than the other.
It's just that they'redifferent and they're serving
(08:10):
different audiences.
And with universities, I think,um, that that kind of logic does
not always prevail because, um,a lot of universities around
the world not in the us, youknow they try to copy a model
that is not meant for them.
And when you talk aboutdifferentiation, you know you
really have to find and now I'mgoing to go back to APUS, which
(08:31):
was the second part of herquestion you really have to find
what's unique about you andwhat people can identify as
being something specific to yourbrand and that you do really
well.
And in our case, what'sspecific about us is that we are
really good educating activeduty service members.
That's how we started.
The university started morethan 30 years ago.
(08:54):
It was founded by a MarineCorps veteran that wanted to
create a university for themilitary, and that's what it did
and that's part of our DNA andit still is part of our DNA and
I think it will always be partof our DNA.
Now it doesn't mean that wedidn't evolve.
We did, but we always stayedloyal to our DNA.
So today we are the number oneeducator of servicemen and
(09:17):
servicewomen in the UnitedStates.
We're also the number oneeducator of veterans in the
United States in terms of GIBill usage.
But we also started expandinginto quote-unquote non-military
students, but by using our corestrength, which is to offer
advantageous tuitions to peoplethat are in a military family or
(09:39):
in a veteran family.
So what that means is that wehave a preferred price for
military folks.
We have a preferred price formilitary folks.
We have a preferred price forveterans and we extend that
price to anyone in theirfamilies, as long as it's a
direct family member, to anyonein their families that want to
study with us.
We respect that price.
Even if you're not a militaryperson or a veteran, you will
get the advantage of thatpreferred price, very similar to
(10:02):
what you know USAA does, doeskind of like with their
insurances, right, that theyextend the price to the families
of the veterans.
So we do the same in ouruniversity to the families
affected through the families ofveterans, and that is allowing
us to expand with what would beconsidered non-traditional
military students, becausethey're not military, they just
(10:22):
happen to be in a militaryfamily so.
But we remain loyal to our coreDNA and you know we call it grow
from the core, and our core isthat we are really good at
educating military and veterans.
That's what we do and we're veryproud of that and that's why
we're number one and we want tocontinue being number one.
(10:43):
But we also want to expand,offering the quality education
that we have for a veryaffordable tuition to their
service members.
And I would argue and I'veasked this question many, many
times maybe there's anotheruniversity out there that offers
that same benefit where ouractive duty students they can
study for $250 per credit hour.
(11:05):
It's a very discounted tuitiongraduate and graduate.
There's a small fee on thegraduate level but the price per
credit hour is $250.
So what we do is that we tellyou know what, if you have an
active duty member in yourfamily, you can also study for
$250.
You know, if you are the spouse, if you are the son, the
daughter, the parents, thedaughter, the parents, the
(11:25):
brother, the sister, and I wouldyou know, I would like to see
if there's another university inthe United States that offer
that kind of benefit to militaryfamilies.
I haven't seen that.
You know it's possible that itexists, but it's not common for
sure.
How do you?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
message that that's such a brilliant value
proposition because you're notjust supporting the, the person
themselves, you're supportingthe entire network and
infrastructure with their familyyes how does that messaging
work?
Are you talking marketingthrough the service member, or
are you going, or do you haveother ways to get that, or how
do you?
How do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
yes, we've, we've um, this is something that we've
been expanding, or let's say,developing and expanding over
the last two years and initiallyin 2023 and part of 2024, we've
we've started offering thatbenefit to the members of the
apus community, meaning, youknow, if you are a student today
(12:21):
, your family gets this benefit,or if you are an alumni
graduate, your family gets thisbenefit, or if you are an alumni
graduate, your family gets thisbenefit as well, and we've had
tremendous success with that.
So then we thought, well, whyare we limiting ourselves to
offer this benefit just to ourstudents?
We can offer this to anybody,and it doesn't matter if you
decide to study somewhere elseas a family member, as a
(12:42):
military person, your family canstill benefit from that.
You know, we would like tooffer that benefit to everyone,
and we do so this year.
Just a few months ago, westarted with active marketing
initiatives that promote thisdiscounted tuition for families
of veterans and active dutyservice members.
(13:02):
We started promoting that inthe open market just a few
months ago and we will continueto do that, because we believe
it's something very unique aboutus.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
That is really really unique and really really cool
to hear.
What are some of the challengesconnected to involving in the
attention?
I mean, you have such a, Ithink, a unique way that you're
serving.
You have that sort ofdifferentiation.
But I have to assume, like, Imean, you know, getting the
numbers to work where you wantthem, to, balancing all this
sort of infrastructure pieceswith the diversity of programs
(13:32):
that you have it's a heavy lift.
So how do you think about thosepieces?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, I would like to , you know, also divide the
question into sections, if youallow me.
So number one is and sometimesin education, and especially in
for-profit education, we talk alot about enrollments and growth
and things like that, and it'sincredibly important because we
(13:59):
believe in our mission, so wewant to expand access to higher
education to as many students aswe can, but I believe that we
can't forget what we're doinghere, and what we're doing here
is educating people that trustyou.
You know, with their time, withtheir money, with their
education.
Sometimes they trust you knowit's their trust and their
family's trust.
So one of the challenges, Ibelieve, of every university,
(14:24):
including ourselves, is how doyou ensure that the quality of
what you're doing is what itshould be?
How do you ensure that theeducation you're providing to
your students is one that isgoing to be recognized in the
marketplace and that, hopefully,is going to make them
successful?
You know the quality of yourcontent improving.
(14:47):
You know the quality of yourfaculty, attracting great
faculty people that would liketo work with us to make sure
that what we do for our studentsis aligned with the
expectations that they have, andI think that's very important
(15:08):
because we can never forget whatwe're doing here and we are
educating people right, and it'sone of the things if you really
think about it, mike that Ithink it's one of the greatest
acts of trust that the humanbeing can do is to say, okay,
I'm going to trust you with myeducation.
It's a big deal, right, so?
So we take that very, veryseriously and and we've been
investing significantly inimproving our content, expanding
(15:32):
our portfolio, expanding ourtechnology platform.
And that brings me to the secondpart of the question, which is
the challenges with growth andenrollment, which, quite frankly
, I think we've been fortunatein a way, because we grew in
2022, we grew in 2023, and weare growing in 2024.
(15:56):
And we are part of a publiclytraded company, so our numbers
are public.
So there's nothing that I cantell you here that cannot be
verified, but it is challengingfor different reasons.
So the first reason is that thenumber of enlisted service
members is declining right inthe military, and that's, you
know, that's a bigger challengethan just with education, but
(16:18):
you have less enlisted membersand then, within that population
, you have a smaller percentageof enlisted members that is
attending higher education.
So what it means is that youhave to be really, really good
to attract the ones that want tostudy and to try to ensure that
they choose your universityover others.
(16:39):
And I think we've beensuccessful with that because
we're still the number oneeducator by far of that audience
and we're incredibly proud ofthat.
But we invest a lot.
You know we have a lot ofpeople out there visiting the
installations making sure thatthey provide relevant
information to to the potentialstudents, that they provide
(17:02):
adequate information to anyonethat might be interested in
studying with, with americanUniversity or American Military
University.
It's a large investment.
We have a large number ofpeople that work at APUS.
Their job is to providerelevant information for those
that are thinking aboutattending higher education.
(17:23):
Also, the higher educationmarket in general, as you know,
is not growing right, so youhave and I think it will
continue to decline overall fordifferent reasons, which is an
that's also an entirely adifferent topic, but we can
address it.
You have, on one side, you haveless people entering the system
, right, so you have lessyounger kids graduating high
(17:45):
school and so they have lesspeople entering the system, and
then, at the same time, you have, I think, a perception of
higher education in the generalmarket, with the general
population, that it's not.
That has been declining interms of reputation and even the
need of having a degree.
(18:06):
Right, and I think the reasonfor that is is, um, that the the
tuition is becoming soexpensive and over the last 20
years the tuition increasedsomething like 300 percent and
and it's becoming so expensivethat a lot of people are
thinking, well, do I really wantto do this?
(18:27):
Like, do I really want to youspend four years inside the
classroom and then end up withhundreds of thousands of dollars
of that?
And you know, I want to getmarried, I want to have kids, I
want to start a family Like, doI really want to do this?
Does it make sense?
And the funny thing is that ifyou look at the data, it
actually makes sense.
You know, because the datashows that if you have a higher
(18:48):
education degree, a bachelor'sdegree, the revenue you will
generate over your lifetime ismore than double than the
revenue that you generate if youonly have a high school degree.
But the perception is that thecost is becoming so expensive
that some people are thinking,if this is something that makes
sense and I understand itbecause it's it's it's a, it's a
(19:09):
real problem.
So I would say that we found weface the same challenges as
most schools, but but we have aspecific challenge of because of
our military students, right,they um, they have they, they
behave in a, in a, in aparticular way.
But uh, all in all, as I said,you know, we've been, we've been
growing in 23, we're in 24,it's in 23, and we're growing in
(19:33):
24.
And it doesn't mean that it'seasy, but it's certainly
possible.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
No, I mean, I think you're saying really, really
good things.
I think the core focus on yourproducts and delivering an
amazing service and the amountof work that you've really put
into that, I think stands out,and knowing it and knowing the
challenges that your base has, Ithink is part of the reason
(19:59):
that you're just continuing tosort of see this, this growth.
Um, how do you approach thetalent and the staffing
management pieces?
I mean, you're in a reallycompetitive geographic location
you have a really sort of uniqueniche.
You're in a really competitivegeographic location.
You have a really sort ofunique niche that you're doing
and then you've got, you know, abig online presence that you
(20:20):
have to sort of scale andinfrastructure.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
So can you talk?
Speaker 1 (20:22):
on those pieces of it , because I think it's really
sort of unique in this space.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I mean we have a very unique situation.
First of all, we are 100%online.
So we have a campus inCharlestown, west Virginia,
which is our main and onlycampus which is beautiful, by
the way but we don't really havestudents there the 50 states
(20:48):
and then we have students inmany countries around the world
and after COVID, we haveessentially been working
remotely.
So everyone is working remotely.
That means that if you want togo to the office in Charleston,
west Virginia, you're free to dothat, but most people decide
not to and most people areworking in a different state, a
(21:12):
different city.
Right, I'm talking now fromMiami, florida.
So that's been, I would not say,challenging, but it's been
interesting because I've alwaysworked in international
environments, right, with myinitial part of my career with
Bosch.
You know this incrediblecompany with.
You know more than I don't know200, 300 locations around the
(21:36):
world and different countries.
So it was very internationaland you know you always, you get
used very early, you know timezones and things like that and
multiple languages.
And then with Illumino it wasall kind of the same.
You know in a much smallerscale, but you know different
countries, different time zones.
So you know we were doing a lotof, you know, zoom and teams
(21:57):
meetings or no skype back then,before it was a thing, just
because we were spread out, youknow, in in different places.
But I was going to the officeand I've always.
You know I, before covid, Inever imagined a world without
an office.
You know it just, it was justpart of my reality and I assume
for most people it was like that.
But in our case I think itworks fine the way it is right
(22:21):
now, just because we've, youknow, we are fully online and
our students are fully onlineand and our faculty has been
spread out.
Historically, you know, we'vehad faculty all over the country
and sometimes internationally,so it's not new for us.
What has been new for us isthat I've learned that you know
(22:43):
you can operate well for thisparticular, you know, for this
particular university, we canoperate well in a remote
environment.
I would question that, if youare working, you know where,
heavily with heavy engineeringor heavy research or, you know,
trying to build highly complexmachines or cars or things like
(23:04):
that, if you could, if you could, operate in an entirely remote
environment, I think, if you'retrying to build a space rocket
or build a new car or build somesophisticated machine, you
probably need some face-to-facetime with the engineers and
people designing the products,but in our case it works really
(23:27):
well.
In our case it works reallywell and in fact one could argue
that it works better, becausethe satisfaction of our students
has been improving over thelast three years.
The satisfaction of ouremployees, staff and faculty has
been improving over the lasttwo years, so one could argue
that it's working better in thatsense.
(23:48):
Right, if those are theoutcomes that you measure.
Of course, it comes with adownside, right, and I think the
biggest downside, quite frankly, is the lack of, you know,
human interaction, real humaninteraction, right?
Just like having a coffee, youknow, having lunch together or
getting together after work.
Spend some you know just time,or getting together after work.
(24:10):
Spend some you know just timejust chatting in the hallway.
You miss that and I thinkthere's a value to that to build
relationships and to build adifferent level of trust,
sometimes that it's harder toget when you are in a fully
online environment.
So, to your question with ourmanagement team, with our
(24:30):
leadership team, we try to gettogether, let's say, every three
months, and we try to spend,you know, a few days together,
and usually with the the realreason of, you know, addressing
some real issue or addressingsome real project, or but also
with the intention of justspending time together and
unfortunately, we we really likebeing around each other, so
(24:51):
it's most of the times it'sreally fun no, that's really
cool.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
How do you, how do you keep teams motivated and
engaged in the in that disparateenvironment, because this is
just something that I feel likeso many leaders are struggling
with right now.
Or and you've got this, whetherit's a hybrid or a fully remote
workforce, you have people thatcare about the mission, but
it's.
It's easy to sort of getdisengaged to your point right
when you're not in person.
(25:14):
How do you think about that sortof motivation, team building
kind of pieces to keep everybodysort of focused on the bigger
goals that you have as aninstitution?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
yeah, I think, for companies, you know, if you
think about google and I'm justusing these because I know that
they're they were really big onreal estate and I visited some
google facilities, right, andthey were incredible.
They had, like, you know,swimming pools and you know
things like that, and and gyms,and and you know, free food and
(25:45):
free drinks and you know it wasincredible to be able to access
those facilities, and so Iimagine that, for I assume,
apple is very similar and I knowthat they're trying to go back
to the you know, quote unquotenormal office routine, because I
assume that for them it's veryimportant to have that physical
(26:06):
presence to you know, to developthe products that they do.
As I said, you know, whenyou're talking about highly
sophisticated things thatinvolve programming, a bunch of
engineers working together, Ithink you probably need that
face time.
One of the good things abouteducation is that most people
that work in education, they'revery driven by the mission of,
you know, helping others havingaccess to a better life and to
(26:31):
improve their lives and theirfamilies' lives.
So a lot of people they'redriven by the mission, so that's
good and that helps.
Regardless of where you'resitting, people are still
committed to that mission.
But we've done a few things andit doesn't mean that it's
perfect, but we've done a fewthings.
So when I started in Septemberof 2022, we developed a set of
(26:53):
values that are 12 values ofthings that are important for us
as a management team and,coincidentally, they are 12.
So now every month, werecognize, you know, the team
members that better representthat value and it's like a
competition and people canrecommend others and you know.
And then we have a small notceremony, but every month we
(27:13):
recognize them.
We send an email, we put thaton social media, we put the
photos, so we recognize thestaff and faculty every month
that better represents thatvalue.
One example could be one of thevalues like we move fast,
meaning that we make decisionsfast and we implement them fast
and we try to see if they areworking fast and if not, then we
move on to the next one.
(27:33):
So you know a specific month ofthe year there's a celebration
of we move fast and you knowthere's a person that is going
to represent that.
So that's one example.
Another example is we'vedeveloped an event called Be
Great, which is every year.
We have commencement, usuallyaround May.
(27:54):
National Harbor usuallyNational Harbor and we have
thousands of people attendingthe commencement.
Last year we had 16,000 people,so it's a big, big event.
But we take the opportunitythat we have a lot of our staff
and our faculty there, because alot of people volunteer to work
right, which is really great tosee.
So we have a lot of our staffand our faculty there because a
lot of people volunteer to workright, which is really great to
see.
So we have a lot of peoplethere and we create this big,
(28:14):
great event, which is an eventwhere we give awards to the
people that represented eitherthe values or that achieved the
highest results in a given year,and most of the awards are
related to students' success,academic success, but it's a
really fun event and it's ablack tie and everyone dresses
up and, uh, you know, kind ofred carpet, kind of thing, and
(28:35):
you know, when we give awards to, to, to the winners and they
walk on stage and take, for it'sa very like glamorous night for
like a for better word, butit's something that we did also
to celebrate the ones that are,you know, making a difference in
serving our students.
So small things like that.
I don't think there's a formulathat you can say Mike, you know
(28:57):
, do A, b, c and you're going todo well.
It's just more, you know, justtrying to learn what is
important for your team, andthis might vary depending on the
team, certainly, but we justtry to recognize them and to
make them feel special, you know, and make them feel that they
are making a difference becausethey are.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
I love those themes and I really like the theme as
well, I think, something that'sunderappreciated and I think a
lot of people could really learnfrom.
So shifting gears a little bit.
How do you think aboutleveraging data and technology
in your platform?
This is a space where I thinkyou all stand on the shoulders
(29:42):
of others.
But what's that look like,what's that approach for you all
?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, I mean, I've been working with data all my
life to support making decisionsand to support understanding
what is relevant for the onesthat are using our services, and
I've done that in all my career.
You know the advantage now isthat, especially for us being an
online university, we have alot of data and also could be
(30:13):
also dangerous, becausesometimes there's so much data
that you say what is reallyrelevant, like what should I
look at?
And sometimes you know you haveto be careful not to, you know,
get buried with.
You know, with all this data,that sometimes it's kind of
meaningless or not so relevantfor decision making.
But certainly we use data and Igo back to the point that I
(30:36):
made just a while ago, which isit's not only about the
enrollment right, it's not onlyabout how many students you get.
It's mostly about how well areyou serving them, how satisfied
are they, how good of educationare they receiving, how
effective is our faculty.
So, for example, in the POS,we've developed something called
(31:01):
Student Satisfaction Index,which we measure every month and
we ask a set of 10 questions tothe students once they complete
their courses.
And it's you know, it'svoluntary, it's not mandatory,
but we have participation ratesevery month, you know, anywhere
between 15 to 20 percent.
So it's statistically relevantbecause we have thousands of
(31:21):
students and and we ask them 10questions, and then that 10
questions they create an indexand that index, you know, from
zero to 100, and every month wemeasure per course how satisfied
our students are with thatparticular course.
And the questions havedifferent dimensions.
It could be about, you know,the academic, the quality of the
content.
It could be about the supportof the faculty.
(31:41):
It could be about the academic,the quality of the content.
It could be about the supportof the faculty.
It could be about the relevancyof that content in the job
market, so on and so forth.
So it's 10 questions and thenevery month we report per course
.
So every faculty person knowsokay how their course is doing
from a student's perspective.
That's really important.
And when we have a bad resultwe immediately act on it and say
(32:03):
, well, what is it that thestudent is not liking?
And we try to address it andtry to improve it.
And it's been proven to be avery, very effective model.
Another thing we do is wemeasure a certain set of
variables related to faculty inthe way that our students are
served.
You know how long does it taketo grade an exam, how long does
(32:24):
it take to answer a question,how long does it?
The quality of the interactionsbetween faculty and students?
And we do these always with thesame guiding principle that we
are all here to serve ourstudents and we are all here to
provide a great learningexperience and hopefully, with
great outcomes for our studentsbecause they trust us with their
education.
So I think that data you know.
(32:46):
Certainly you know mostuniversities.
If you ask and I would assumethat if you ask most university
leaders, they will immediatelygo about.
You know leads and conversionrates and things like that.
And and I mean I get it and youknow I'm.
I have a background inmarketing myself, so I'm not
ignoring that, but I'm sayingthat I think more important than
(33:08):
that is what are we doing tomake sure that our students are
pleased, and not only that theyare pleased, but that we're
trying to continuously improvethat experience, and that's what
we're focusing on.
I love that Ten questions andthen the other continuously
improve that experience, andthat's what we're focusing on.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, I love that 10-question framework, and then
the other metrics that you took,like faculty advocacy.
I mean it just connects sodeeply to your brain and to some
of sort of what we spoke aboutbefore you sort of differentiate
in such a current space.
So to me I mean those are justlike layering, you know, you're
(33:47):
sort of in differentiation, andall those sort of other pieces
of building on your strengthsand lovely.
Maybe, maybe as a place to close, because I know that we're
butting up against time here.
If you could fix anythingmagically, just wave a wand and
just have one big fixoperationally for APUS, what do
(34:10):
you think that would be?
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, we have large ambitions in terms of creating a
platform that is what we call a21st century platform that
truly will provide digitaleducation, meaning that, ideally
, we can provide a personalizedexperience to each student.
That's what I would love to do,what the team would love to do.
I think education is going tomove in that direction
(34:35):
regardless, because it's justkind of the expectation of the
modern student, and it will beso more and more into the future
, I believe.
So if you think abouteverything you do, mike, today,
with technology, right, you knowsomething as simple as your
Netflix.
If you go, if I go into yourNetflix, you know it's going to
recommend you things that aredifferent than whatever Netflix
(34:58):
is recommending me, just becausethey believe that you're going
to like a few things and I'mgoing to like some other things.
And if you go into your Spotify, it's the same, and your Amazon
is the same.
And not even to talk aboutsocial media, the algorithm is
recommending whatever thingsthat you're going to interact
with.
But if you bring that logic toeducation, what it means is that
(35:20):
every person is slightlydifferent in the way they learn
right, and some people mightlearn better by watching videos.
Some people might learn betterby reading.
Some people might learn betterby listening.
Some people might learn betterby combining all of the above.
Some people might learn better,you know, interacting with
other humans.
Some people might learn betterby themselves.
(35:41):
So everyone is a bit different.
But, however, the academicjourney for most students is
exactly the same.
If I enroll in an MBA and youenroll in the same program,
(36:02):
we're going to do the exact samecourses, follow the exact same
logic, follow the exact samerhythm, have the exact same
exams and hopefully have theexact same logic for the exact
same rhythm, have the exact sameexams and hopefully have the
exact same outcome.
And I think there's anopportunity there to disrupt
this with technology, which isthat you know, if you are, let's
say, we're both studyingmarketing and you know.
It just happens to be that Iwas a cmo before, so you know,
whatever we're learning, it'skind of basic to me, but to you
it's something new becauseyou've never done it.
So why should I spend time, youknow, learning something that I
(36:24):
already know?
I can just move on to somethingelse.
Or let's say, if we had a youknow an exam and it was about,
let's say, the second world war,and you had.
You know you failed something,but I didn't, then you know.
Most likely it would be good toprovide you some additional
material so that you understandwhy you failed the question and
(36:47):
learn whatever you're supposedto learn.
And I can move on because Ialready answered it.
So that kind of personalizationin higher education I think is
going to be the future, that youprovide a personalized program
and experience to each studentand that can only be done with
technology program andexperience to each student and
that can only be done withtechnology.
So if I had the possibility ofcreating something just by magic
(37:08):
, that's what I would like to do.
I love that answer and Idefinitely agree.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I think that's the future.
Neil, this has been amazing.
I can't thank you enough foryour time and insight and so
many gems that we've got.
So thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Of course, mike Pleasure being here, and thank
you again for inviting me.
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