April 24, 2025 • 38 mins
The pathway to college completion remains filled with barriers that disproportionately impact first-generation students, adult learners, and historically underserved communities. But what if these obstacles aren't inherent to students themselves, but rather embedded in our educational systems?
Meacie Fairfax, Strategy Director at Complete College America, brings both personal experience and professional expertise to this conversation about transforming higher education. Drawing from her own journey as a student who encountered numerous barriers to completion, Fairfax offers a compelling vision for how institutions can redesign themselves around student success.
"We have to make sure that our supports, our structures, our pathways match the reality of our students," Fairfax emphasizes, challenging the traditional model that expects students to navigate broken systems. From reconsidering gateway courses to implementing flexible schedules that accommodate working students and caregivers, these structural changes can dramatically improve outcomes.
The conversation pulls back the curtain on how effective institutions approach student success. Data transparency emerges as a powerful catalyst—"Institutions that publicly share completion equity gaps shift faster," Fairfax notes. Rather than relying solely on metrics like GPA, leaders should ask deeper questions about where and why students encounter obstacles. This approach shifts the focus from "fixing students" to fixing systems.
Complete College America's framework encompasses four pillars—purpose, momentum, support, and structure—providing a comprehensive roadmap for institutional transformation. For leaders looking to begin this journey, Fairfax recommends starting with data analysis and collaborative campus-wide conversations that help everyone see themselves in the work of student success.
Ready to reimagine how your institution approaches college completion? Listen now to discover practical strategies that can transform educational pathways and create more equitable outcomes for all students.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Awesome.
Well, I am so glad to be heretoday.
Can you introduce yourself alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Sure, absolutely.
My name is Misi Fairfax.
I'm a strategy director basedin Burlington, vermont.
I work for Complete CollegeAmerica, where our goal is to
increase the number of studentsand learners who are attaining
college completion, whetherthat's for a credential or value
or a degree.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Awesome, meecy.
How'd you get into this work?
It's such a fascinating missionthat you all have and you're
doing some really incrediblestuff.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, I'll try to keep this short because because
it's a long kind of windy road,but what I will say is that I
was the youngest of four.
I grew up in a place that waskind of between rural and urban
Harrisburg, pennsylvania and thebigger thing for me is that I
had, and those around me had,issues with getting to and
through college.
(01:02):
I did not realize until I waskind of seeking ways to improve
community outcomes and wasthinking about health outcomes,
was thinking about education,which we know is a social
determinant for health, greaterhealth outcomes, and it was,
quite frankly, just throughconversations, mentorship and
opportunities that I found mypath here.
(01:23):
But I would say that theturning point for me, as I was
working for an executive searchfirm based out of Boston and
what they would do is basicallysearch committees, mission
aligned institutions, and atthat point I thought maybe it
wasn't just about putting theright leader in place.
But since then I've understoodthat this has to be really
(01:43):
community led and communityformed.
We have to learn from everybodywho was a stakeholder within
our education, higher educationcommunities and, quite frankly,
I was one of the students whohit every one of the barriers
that we talk about at CCA and toramp the strategies to make
sure that students can not onlyget through but persist and then
thrive and get into ameaningful career.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So for me, persist and then thrive and get into a
meaningful career.
So for me this is a mix ofpersonal and professional.
Yeah Well, and that's awesome.
Could you break down what someof those, what the challenges
are in terms of the completionand I think you have 18 that you
sort of work on at ColleagueCollege in America Can you give
(02:23):
a quick overview of that?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Absolutely so.
You know, more broadly, when wethink about students and the
ways that they think aboutwhether they are going to be
college bound or college going,it starts really early in their
education.
Sometimes folks will say that'slike third or maybe fifth or
sixth grade, and so a lot oftimes folks have already made up
their mind whether they arepart of that population, and a
(02:48):
lot of that is made through whatwere the conversations that are
happening in classrooms whetherwe are math savvy right, I'm
not a math person.
You also see it in differentways in terms of communities,
right, there's many folks youknow I represent the Gen X of
those who have gone throughcollege.
With some college no degreefailed, stopped out, didn't have
those supports, and so much ofthat was because they haven't
(03:10):
tied it back to meaningfulsupports that we know that all
of our students need.
They haven't tied to makingsure that they understand what
is needed to continue withfinancial aid, to make sure that
folks have the momentum andunderstand that doing 12 credits
a semester isn't exactly goingto get you through in four years
.
And then thinking about manywho are doing part time, what
(03:32):
does it look like for thosepathways?
How do we make sure that theyunderstand what that is.
But then, more largely and morebroadly, you know there's been a
lot said in the news and thenjust more broadly, that folks
are trying to look for meaningand belonging, understand
purpose.
What am I learning, what am Igetting out of this degree, and
(03:52):
is it going to propel me into abetter career?
We saw so much of that acrossthe pandemic and we never really
answered those questions forfolks, and folks are still
grappling for that.
And then, at the same time too,we realized that we are having
a decline in high schoolenrollments.
So that means that when we'relooking to serve, we're looking
to serve those we most likelyhave not served well, and so we
have to be very clear about whatthat looks like.
(04:12):
And so, going back to CompleteCollege America, in terms of the
body of work that we do, wehave four different pillars
across 18 strategies.
So we talk about purpose, rightin terms of what is it that
connecting your goal to yourcareer, your aspirations for
economic mobility, the momentumthat I talked on?
So where and how are we beingclear about those pathways,
providing clear clarity forstudents?
(04:34):
What does it look like forsupport so many more of us.
Affordability is such a concern.
More than 60 percent ofAmericans are living paycheck to
paycheck, so that's a hugeconcern.
More than 60% of Americans areliving paycheck to paycheck, so
that's a huge concern.
And then also making sure thatwe understand the structure and
the pathways and the differentways to get to where folks are
getting to.
More often than not, we know,especially with corporate
(04:56):
entities entering into thiseducation space, folks are
looking for things that aredigestible and consumable, so
maybe sackable credentialsleading up to further degrees or
across someone's lifetime, andso we think more broadly about
what is the lifetime learningthat we can support for our
communities and for those whoare looking for different
(05:16):
opportunities or for careerchanges.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I love that answer.
I love how holistic you are interms of sort of looking at all
these interconnected pieces.
One thing that you've mentioneda few times is that sort of
like broader purpose and thenthe sort of the meaning behind
it.
What's, what's that look likefrom a sort of implementation
piece for you all, because it'slike that's such a tricky one
(05:39):
and you're you're doing work,that sort of focus on this sort
of like this region, state,national levels, but then it's
institution focused.
You have this like really sortof holistic piece.
What's that look like inpractice in terms of like how
you support that?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, you know, I would say you know a lot of
information I like to pull fromthe folks who are doing work
over at Gallup because I thinkit's really interesting in terms
of perceptions and whetherfolks are prepared for the
workforce, whether they havethose critical skills, and so
when I think a bit about thepurpose piece, I think about it.
You know there's a duality, butthen there's also a pluralistic
piece to it too.
(06:15):
So I think about.
So often we say to folks whatdo you want to be when you grow
up?
I feel like we're asking thewrong questions.
What's the change you want tobe?
What is it that you're seeingthat's a need within your
community?
So many of our folks areplace-based or want to be able
to contribute to that.
So we talk more broadly aboutwhen we talk about
(06:36):
implementation.
We talk about where do we bringopportunity to explore what are
interests, the careeropportunities that are available
.
You know I am what?
Well, I was about to give myage, but I still talk about the
jobs, the careers that I stilllearn about, that I have never
heard of or that evenpotentially existed.
And I think that's the otherpart of widening up for students
(06:59):
so that they have more of aninformed choice and they're not
kind of siloed into choices.
Because when we think about whenand how students and learners
get into college, so many ofthem is like, well, I have to go
or it's an expectation, but atthe same time, on the other side
are those who are I'm not sosure about what my options are
available to me, and then wealso know that they narrow very,
(07:20):
very quickly in terms of whattheir options are available in
terms of neighbors, familymembers and others, and so we
want there to be a broaderopportunity, for there to be an
exploration and then for them tobe more mindful, more part of
that, and so that is part of thecurriculum every step of the
way.
So it's not just a first yearexperience, it's not just talked
(07:43):
about orientation.
It's not safe to talk aboutwhen I was in college at the end
and like, oh snap, I got to getout and I got to figure out
what exactly I'm going to do,Like we're not at those moments
anymore.
We shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, that makes that makes all sense to me and,
coming from a similar place toyou right, bidhamton, new York,
very similar Harrisburg it'slike you have this tiny tiny
sliver of idea of what careersare that are completely based on
, like your neighborhood, yoursub area, like all of this kind
of thing.
So I love that sort of allthose through lines that you
(08:16):
have to sort of like figure itout the sort of bigger thing and
broadening your horizonshorizons and also like the.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
What change do you?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
want to see.
I think it's such a powerfulreframe for helping people see,
like, what are somepossibilities that you could
sort of have and what's the sortof larger purpose that is sort
of connected to that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Agree.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
You have some really cool emphasis in your frame on
the CCA frameworks around thoseearly momentum metrics for for
institutions and for students.
Can you walk us through whatthose are?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah.
So you know one of the biggestones I would say that we always
talk through and that we're likecome on, folks change, change.
Change is gateway courses andgateway success, right.
So we talk about passingcollege level math and English
in year one.
We know those are powerfulpredictors in terms of
throughputs for those who makeit to college completion.
However, we know that enoughpeople don't take a look at
(09:09):
those or understand whatbarriers those are for students.
I personally right when I talkabout this as a mix of personal
and professional.
We also see there's adifference when people move
between institutions.
So you're at a communitycollege, you get placed into dev
ed, but then you go to afour-year college who does not
put you into that place or thatplacement, but they put you into
(09:30):
a four-year and there isn'tconsistency in terms of what
that looks like.
And so that's another one wherewe talk really broadly was like
what are the bottlenecks?
So, even when we're talkingabout math and English, but then
more broadly, what are theother bottlenecks that we're
seeing that are that?
(09:51):
You know institutions need totake a broader look at.
I think the other one that wetalk about is you know, that's
the credit accumulation right.
How do we make sure, even andlet's be clear like we stepped
away from the 15 to finish,right, because we realized that
was a very narrow pathway for avery narrow population of
students.
So what we say is, and what theresearch shows us is take one
more class right.
When can you take one moreclass?
(10:11):
What would that look like toadd it to your schedule?
But then also, that adds forour institutions to be more
perceptive and understanding ofour students in terms of the
different times and theavailability for them.
Right, I think the hotspots formost students, or for when
faculty like to schedule, isTuesdays and Thursdays, right In
(10:31):
the mornings.
But we have to think about howdo we make it flexible for
students who have multiple lives, multiple responsibilities,
caregiving responsibilities, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I love that answer.
What are the gaps you see interms of that sort of like the
data collection on the front endand then like that actual sort
of equity centered action?
I thought that's like such apowerful example there of, like
you know, you have these, likethis is convenient for one
person, but it's you know, itdoesn't really sort of work for
the person that has these sortof layered responsibilities.
(11:03):
What are other sort of gapsthat you see between the two?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, well, you know, I would say that when we're
thinking about that too, andlike a shout out, a huge shout
out to our IR folks, right,because they are doing the work
of so many and then also tryingto improve the data literacy of
their colleagues, right, so theycan make these changes, and so
when I think more largely aboutwhat does that look like, what
(11:28):
could it be, what are kind ofthe hesitations we got to think
about the clean data, the datathat actually is actionable and
allows us to make changes in themoment, within a semester or
for the next semester or term,depending on how colleges are
situated, and so it has to betimely and it has to provide
(11:48):
insights that are not only goodfor disaggregated populations
but aggregate populations andalso informed resource
allocation, and so that's alarger piece that you know, when
we think about strategicfinance and the use of our
dollars to either fundcompletion, we have to think
more broadly about what couldthat look like to make our
(12:08):
education, our institutions, ourfaculty, our staff much more
nimble to respond to whatthey're seeing in the data.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Do you find there's like I knowyou all do some really sort of
comprehensive work across statesystems and institutions?
Are there under leveragedpolicy mechanisms or funding
mechanisms that you think couldbe sort of better used?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, I mean, I think there's.
I think that's tough right,because I think there's a lot of
things that come up that areunfunded mandates, right.
So in terms of the state ofthat that pie and what that
looks like, the other thing I'dalso mention is that we've seen
state funding has changeddramatically over the last
decades, and so that that is aconcern as well.
(12:57):
I think there are policy levers, but, quite frankly, part of it
and part of the work that we dois educating but then also
advocating, and so the when Ithink about policy levers, I
think largely more aboutcompletion funding and I think
about getting to that point ofwhere we are actually funding
success and what does it looklike to fund at that level.
(13:18):
As someone who's really alwaysworked in the student support
space for so, so long and was abeneficiary of the TRIO services
right, really intensive Ialways realized that many more
students could benefit from that, but the fundings and the
dollars weren't available.
The other part I also thinkabout as a policy lens is like
(13:38):
this None of these, none of thechallenges that we're facing in
higher education are isolated tojust our, our area, our field,
and so we talk so broadly aboutpartnerships, but in terms of
actually getting really capitalP with partnerships, right, and
I say B almost like buddy, likelet's become really good friends
(14:00):
and let's work together.
And so what does that look likein terms of when we're using
folks to support us with mentalhealth supports, with social
services, supports withcurriculum development and
looking in terms of teaching andlearning so much is happening
within the digital learningspace, so much is happening with
AI, which I know we'll get totalk to a little bit more but I
(14:20):
think about where we provideguidelines and not necessarily
rough policies, because I thinka lot of times policies can be
over-interpreted and I thinkwe're also seeing that in the
space right now, which I thinkfolks are just being really
careful in terms of where thepolicies that are going to take
place, which we're very focusedat this moment with state
(14:41):
policies, in terms of the changethat they can make immediately
within their states to make surethat they get the funding that
will fund the completion agendayou know, as we describe it and
talk about it at CCA and thenalso lead to greater outcomes
and greater opportunities withinour communities, which many of
those, when you're listening tokind of the public discourse is
what they're have an appetitefor and what they're searching
(15:03):
for.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Completely.
Yeah, I love that, I love thatanswer.
Where do you find that collegeleaders just don't fully grasp
the whole picture?
Or if you could sort of just,you know, like get in front just
to like say one or two thingsto college presidents, um high
level administrators, like whatare the stories, what are the
narratives, what are the piecesof the pie that you you're
(15:26):
seeing that you wish people sortof understood better um, oh
well, you know, I think we havetalked about who needs to be at
tables and who needs to be indiscussions, but we haven't
fortified ways where that isalways that, where that becomes
the norm.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And so you know where we're always kind of circling
and saying if there's only, ifwe're only relying on one or two
individuals to be the folks tosay so-and-so should be here, or
I think such-and-such should behere, or this isn't represented
, we're still going to miss allof the learnings that we could
have from the data that we'recollecting and the questions
that we're asking.
What students may miss isstudents want to do good for the
(16:15):
communities, learners want todo good for the communities and
a broader swath of who we'rethinking of, of our potential
learners.
I think we still too narrowlyand I think some universities
can afford to be narrow in theirfocus we still too narrowly
think about high schoolgraduates, when we really need
to think about folks who havejust been at the ether, have
some college, no degree, havefolks who are just as impacted,
(16:38):
have folks who may be trying tocome back in different ways, and
we also have to think about theways that people are grappling
and what we're going through orcontinue to go through.
The pandemic was a collectivetrauma right.
So when we think about mentalhealth, substance abuse and
where we are, we think about,you know just we're seeing in
terms of the polarization withinour country, the lack of
(17:01):
connectivity, the need for civicengagement, and so even just
thinking about that being putinto the discourse and folks
being able to agree, to disagreebut be able to have
conversation, I think those arethe things that make us better,
and I think always thinking thatit's a thing to do that is kind
of outside of us versus it'sour own internal work, I think
(17:22):
is also the other thing thatsometimes I think leaders miss.
Leaders sometimes may think thatthey need to have all the
answers.
They don't, and I think theyneed to leave room to not be the
experts and to actually learnfrom others, and so I think
that's the bigger piece as well.
And then I also want to saythat we just have to make sure
that our supports, ourstructures, our pathways match
(17:46):
the reality of our students, ofthose who are trying to come on
board and get a furthereducation, and I just still
there's so much work that weneed to do there.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I agree.
I've long said that I thinkhigher education has a massive
design problem.
I think if you look at any, youknow whether it's a product or
service or community, whatever.
Those that have like the mostuptake, the most stickiness like
are really centered uniquely onthe needs of the users and have
like feedback loops andmechanisms and design structures
(18:20):
in place to sort of change thenot just change the outcomes,
but sort of change the serviceand delivery mechanism to truly
work in a way that like worksfor the population.
And that's something that haslong been missed from higher ed,
which is very sort of top down.
So I feel like there's just toyour point, there's feedback
(18:42):
loops, mechanisms, but also asort of a restructuring that can
and should happen.
That is so complicated justgiven all the sort of
intersecting parts, but for usto sort of really moves the next
place, um, I think we we reallyneed and that's part of what
excites me about the the greatwork that you all are doing- I
appreciate that, mike um what?
(19:04):
where do you find thatinstitutions tend to get stuck
um right, because you know,there's I think there's there's
really sort of big ideas,there's amazing data and
research that you all are sortof like forming.
Where do you find that placescan kind of get mired in making?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
the transitions happen that are really effective
.
Well, you know, I think acouple of things right, because
we think so broadly aboutleadership and change and
culture change and what thatlooks like.
And you know, what I would sayis what separates the movers
from those who kind ofcontinually get stuck or aren't
able to do the work.
I think it's alignment from thetop and empowerment on the
(19:41):
ground, right, like we reallyhave to give that empowerment to
the folks and give agency.
We need to be aware of powerdynamics in the room where we
support people.
So when we think aboutpresidents, provosts, advisors,
they all have to be rowing inthe same direction and bought
into it.
I think data transparency fuelsurgency and focus, but it has
to be often and you have to feelcomfortable having those
(20:04):
conversations too often.
Sometimes, when data is shared,it's seen as being punitive, and
I think that's just because ofhow infrequently it happens and
we're not giving also the powerfor folks to say, well, let's
think about this and let's kindof make sense of the data, let's
have an inquiry session andtalk more broadly about it.
Um, those who have start stories, start meetings with student
(20:32):
stories and disaggregated dataright, it tells us so much and
reveals so much, but then thatallows people to get to be part
of those conversations.
What else do you think thismight mean, um, and what do you
think this may lead us towards?
What do you think the future isin terms of the ways that we're
thinking about, programming andofferings?
Um, and then I also think aboutthe for those who weren't
really doing the work.
They were funding and elevatingimplementation leaders, right,
(20:54):
not just like strategic leadersor strategic planners, but folks
who have given and have given alot of their lives to this work
.
And so I always like to say forfolks, like for folks, there's
so many folks who are alreadydoing this work, so I just got
to shout out all of those folkswho are doing so much of this
good work, right, but it gets,it gets stagnant or it stays in
(21:14):
silos.
And so just that part where youempower everybody from the top
down and people know what theirrole is in student success,
right, when I think it wasprobably about five or six or
seven years ago when we startedseeing the VP of student success
, right, and so much of that waskind of bringing the student
affairs, student services sidelike the provost, academic
(21:36):
student affairs and academicaffairs aside back into it.
And I think that is verypromising, right, because it's
like we're all in this togetherbut we do it in different ways.
And then how do we elevate theroles of folks who are doing
doing this work and haveactually been supporting our
students in so many differentways?
So I always think aboutdisability services,
accessibility, accommodations.
I think about many of thecenters that we have on campus,
(21:58):
whether it's for communitystudents or for students across
different populations.
I think about you know, ourathletics folks.
I think about our careerexploring you know our career
counseling folks, right.
And I think about the dualityof where folks have not only
provided and told about theservices that they're providing
but cross-trained theircolleagues so that they knew and
there were just a dearth.
(22:19):
And you're going to hear me sayover and over again like support
, support, support, right,because that's so much of that
is so foundational to ourstudents, to helping them
persist and continue on.
But too much of that we kind oflet go of, even though we have
insights through financial aidand other means and to knowing
what they need and and from ourfaculty too, right Early alerts
(22:40):
have been around for a really,really, really long time.
They could, really they couldbe used as equity for, as a
lever for equity, but often, youknow, it just goes beyond just
maybe that one student right, soholistically, how are they
looking at that and theinterventions?
How they're, whether they'rethey're helping, whether they
may be harming or whether theymay be more neutral?
(23:02):
And then the last thing I'llsay, too, is about utilization
of services.
Are students coming in the sameway and what are the ways in
which they want to be able toself-serve but then also
sometimes be able to have thatcontact with that human?
Regardless of how we go intothis digital age, we will still
need a human, and I love that.
(23:26):
Our people, our students,everyone still talks about that.
Ai and technology and so manythings are kind of happening to
us.
Where do we start co-creatingthat and thinking about the ways
that we drive it for theproblems that we see, for the
solutions that we need, versusletting those be dictated to us?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I love that and I think that's a great segue to
you.
Wrote this great report,co-authored a great report
around sort of generatingcollege completion.
You outlined five differentstrategies for essentially what
that looks like Can youcontextualize what that is and
then like where you see places,perhaps getting it wrong where
(24:07):
you see places perhaps gettingit wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, so you know, I this, this the larger report,
and I well, I'm pausing to saylike I want to give a shout out
to everyone who was a part ofthis.
Right, so we have our, ourcouncil for our council for AI,
through complete college America.
Right, so that is a number offolks from under-resourced
institutions, aplu associations.
Right, community colleges,tribal colleges, HBCUs and
(24:36):
minority serving institutions.
Right so, folks who were kindof always put to the margins in
terms of their voice or justbeing able to be a part of this
space, and so that was veryimportant in terms of that,
those individuals who areforming our body of work and
kind of keep us true tounderstanding and making sure
that we're serving all learners.
In terms of the report ofgenerating college completion,
(24:56):
again shout out to ourconsultants and colleagues on
this Audrey Ellis from T3,advising, and then also
internally, charles Ansel is ourVP of Research, data and
advocacy.
Right, and so you know, fromthe report, a couple of the key
learners was just understandingthat one of the most understood
or misunderstood strategies isacademic momentum metrics, and
(25:16):
people think that GPA alwaystells the whole story, but it
doesn't, right, and so, you know, one of our thing is is that we
just want to make sure and wewant to talk about often and
everywhere, as much as we can.
So, mike, again thanks forgiving the space is the
misinterpretation of metricsthat just leave the surface
level interventions Right.
(25:37):
So you know I think this wasSimon Sinek, I believe it was
like the why, the why, the why,the why, the why Right, like the
five why is how to get down alittle bit deeper into what's
actually taking place and thenuances.
Folks will tell you that youknow, we know it's GPA, we know
this and we know that for areally long time.
But what we have not known andwhat we haven't surfaced are the
(25:58):
nuances in terms of when andhow and why.
We are still sticking to GPA asthe whole story, in terms of
our students, in terms of theirpotential and in terms of their
readiness.
I think the other thing that wetalk about is kind of structural
redesign, right, that's biggerthan just thinking about fixing
students.
We've seen institutions turnaway from that, but we also
(26:19):
still see folks who say and putit on the student problem with
not understanding systemicbarriers that come into place,
right, and so we talk morebroadly about.
You know this means aboutcreating systems that work for
students and not asking studentsto work around broken systems.
So even just something in termsof just you know, did the focus
group not too long ago talkingabout dual enrollment or credit
(26:41):
for prior learning?
You go to any other institutionthat looks completely different
.
Students will are waiting forthese decisions to be made.
Meanwhile they have enrolled atthese institutions and then to
come find out that they only getone or two or few or maybe no
credits for what they have doneprior, and so that's a lot of
times that's a slap in the facein terms of asking them to put
in so much and to get so littleback.
(27:03):
I think the other piece aboutthis, too, is thinking about
when we think about curriculumand what's happening within the
conversations that we're having.
Are we actually getting thoselife skills and the skills that
are going to serve us criticalthinking, problem solving we
think about even the AIworkforce infused skills?
Are those happening in theclassroom, and is it happening
in the ways that it needs to,just across our education system
(27:26):
and not based on funding levels, which I think is unfortunately
where we kind of always seem tofall.
And then when I think aboutstructural redesign, I think the
largely about that too is likehumility, right, in terms of
just saying, listen, this isn't.
I think we have to step backfrom our identities, whether
it's as faculty members,administrators or expertise that
(27:47):
we might think we have in.
Step back from our identities,whether it's as faculty members,
administrators or expertisethat we might think we have in
this field, to say, what if thebarriers are ours and not theirs
?
What if we can't wrap our hands, wrap our heads around a
different way of knowing or adifferent type of metric to
track?
That gives us a little bit morenuance into our students?
And then you know, we talk aboutthe momentum that's needed for
(28:10):
adult learners.
So you know, the example wealways like to say is like we
will give all of the differentflexible pathways for those
who've already gotten a degree,right.
Like folks thought that comingon and offering Coursera or some
of these other ones would justopen up for folks to kind of
learn at their own pace,especially those who maybe had
not attended college.
(28:30):
But what we found is that it'smostly those who already have
degrees who are accessing thosetypes of resources, right?
And so when we think about butthen, right, what can we learn
about what we're offering inthese kind of executive pathways
or these pathways for folks whoare like graduate students,
flexible, pacing, modularcourses and I go back again to
talking about stackablecredentials and what does that
(28:51):
look like in terms of like, hey,if you want to come back, this
creates and goes into a pathwayfor you or puts you right into
an apprenticeship or into a job,right, because we know you
don't.
When we think about you know,this is something that pains me
is that increasingly, we seeless and less of our males going
into higher education, right,and so that's a big concern for
(29:12):
me.
Thinking about, what is it thatwe're missing out there?
And then, what is it in termsof the need for so many families
to get there?
And we know that folks alsoneed to earn while they learn,
right, so where do we bring thatinto that, so that that is
available for folks?
And then we also have to thinkabout advisors, faculty and
others who are trained in justlife staging right and inclusive
(29:35):
career mapping.
What could that look like interms of when we talk more
broadly about that, what's realversus these traditional, which
is now non-traditional in termsof the ways that we think about
mapping them to a career ormoving into a field of study.
And then the last thing I wouldsay and I think this is the
thing that's really aboutdriving change is data
(29:57):
transparency right.
We know across the board, andwe've seen it, and I've seen it
also in this role, but thenacross my time at other
organizations is thatinstitutions that publicly share
completion equity gaps shiftfaster, right.
Public dashboards one of thebiggest things to talk about
public dashboards in Indiana ledto stronger advising reform
statewide, right.
(30:17):
So what does that mean?
When folks are sharing andinterrogating and talking about
that data a little bit more, italso means that they feel much
more bought into the process,because I think that's the other
part about when you, when youdon't share, share something you
were, whether you areacknowledging it or not you're
telling people we, we don't needyour advice or we don't need
you to look into these things.
And I think you know at thispoint in time, we see our
(30:40):
learners, our folks who are noton our campuses right now, who
are kind of peeking and justsaying where and how can I have
a stake in this?
Or if I don't, I don't want tobe a part of that and I think
that that part is veryproblematic and troubling as we
think about the future of highered, absolutely, absolutely love
that answer and just theholistic sort of nature of it
(31:01):
and all the sort of intersectingpieces.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know, I know one thing that I've sort of seen
happen quite a bit with, uh,with leaders that are sort of
trying to balance all the maybesort of accreditation challenges
the uh you know, the fundingchallenges, the business model
challenges, all these kind ofthings.
I think they can get reallysort of mired in the
complexities of like whatredesign looks like and you know
(31:24):
, I think, reallywell-intentioned people wanting
to sort of move in a newdirection but sort of being
stuck in a system.
What would be the sort of likethe low-hanging fruit first
steps you'd recommend for, youknow, for a leader that like
knows that they could be doing abetter job, and sort of like,
designing institutions to sortof like have better work, better
(31:44):
transparency, you know, beingmore student-centered, all those
sort of really important thingsthat you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
What would be?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
those like first, like one to two steps, that you
say like just start here andthen start digging a little bit
deeper.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, so I you know.
I think the thing for me wouldbe like let's take a look at
your data, right, how broadlyare you looking at it?
And then do you have theability to look at your data?
What are you able to pull?
I think that is the biggestpiece understanding your metrics
key, your metrics tree mapping.
(32:18):
You know I feel like I'm goingin kind of heavy, but I'm like
mapping those metrics back toyour strategic plan so folks can
understand and see themselvesin the work.
I think that's the other part.
There's a couple differentthings.
If the data isn't there andyou're not able to really get
some insights off the data, orif you're just reporting on data
that you have to report to thefederal government or for
accreditation, you're missingout on a lot.
(32:39):
So expand that data set andinvoke leaders from across your
institution to say about some ofthe things that they would like
to see.
Invoke leaders from across yourinstitution to say about some
of the things that they wouldlike to see, because I think
there is a laundry list of folkswho are trying to figure this
out and are continue to do thisin silos, and I think just how
powerful it could be at a highend.
There's one other question youasked me, but I'm going to ask
you to ask it again because Ithink I might've missed it.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You absolutely nailed it.
No, that's perfect.
There's so many challenges inthis space.
Maybe it's a fun place to justwrap up.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
What gets you excited about the road ahead?
Well, you know what?
I'm a person who's right in themiddle thinking about AI
because I think it has so muchpromise, but I think there's
always a utopia or dystopianfuture about it and I think, the
way I am, it's forcing us tochange in a way that we haven't,
and the ways that we measurehow, what we think is about
(33:35):
student success and the lengthof time to get a degree.
I think it's really challengingus, even though there were
external pressures and differenttypes of modalities and
different types of corporateentities who were forcing us in
that way too.
But I also see that folks areactually in a learning phase
right now, whether they want toadmit it or not, because there's
(33:55):
so much happening and we'relearning so much about our
government.
We're learning so much aboutour people.
We're learning so much aboutjust the frustrations that other
people have, that I feel likewe're in this place where folks
are like I'm willing to listen,I'm willing to learn, but I also
want to be a part of thisprocess and how and I think
that's the part where you knowwe talk about Complete College
(34:18):
of America, about buildingmovements, and folks are
chomping the bit about.
How do I get involved?
How do I make this moremeaningful?
What does that look like for mycommunities?
How do I be?
How do I get involved?
How do I make this moremeaningful?
What does that look like for mycommunities?
How do I make a contextual forwhat is needed here and now?
And what I love about this isthat there's so many people who
are increasingly lending theirvoices to this space or offering
thoughts, opinions and ideas.
(34:39):
I think, when we think about Ihave never liked the idea of
someone saying I'm an expertbecause at that point you have
decided that your learning isover and I.
What I feel like at this pointis that many of us within higher
ed and then the surroundingkind of space and entities, are
asking some really deepquestions about what does it
(34:59):
mean to actually support anindividual's life so that they
can thrive?
And then what does it mean interms of what are the skills
that are just very fundamentalthat we should be talking about
and that we should be providingto our learners when and how
they return to us, and what arethe things that we can kind of
leave off right and allow forthem to do and think about
(35:21):
different ways of exploring.
And so I you know, what am Iexcited about?
I'm excited about that there's adifferent way of just thinking
about it, that there'spossibilities, that there's more
people brought into the workand that there's so many people
who are passionate about makingit better.
And so you know why do Icontinue to be in this work?
Because there's so many peoplelike me and not like me, with
(35:45):
varied and different experiences, who are giving up their minds
and their space, and I thinkthat, in and of itself, is like,
when we're all in it together,right, and that's where I'm like
, hopeful for that.
We can all be in this togetherto just make it a better
community for ourselves and tojust make better lives, so that
we can be folks who can upliftothers while we are uplifting
(36:06):
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
It's a beautiful answer.
I think that's a great place toend it, Misi.
Thanks so much.
I appreciate you.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Awesome.
Well, I am so glad to be heretoday.
Can you introduce yourself alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Sure, absolutely.
My name is Misi Fairfax.
I'm a strategy director basedin Burlington, vermont.
I work for Complete CollegeAmerica, where our goal is to
increase the number of studentsand learners who are attaining
college completion, whetherthat's for a credential or value
or a degree.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Awesome, meecy.
How'd you get into this work?
It's such a fascinating missionthat you all have and you're
doing some really incrediblestuff.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, I'll try to keep this short because because
it's a long kind of windy road,but what I will say is that I
was the youngest of four.
I grew up in a place that waskind of between rural and urban
Harrisburg, pennsylvania and thebigger thing for me is that I
had, and those around me had,issues with getting to and
through college.
(01:02):
I did not realize until I waskind of seeking ways to improve
community outcomes and wasthinking about health outcomes,
was thinking about education,which we know is a social
determinant for health, greaterhealth outcomes, and it was,
quite frankly, just throughconversations, mentorship and
opportunities that I found mypath here.
(01:23):
But I would say that theturning point for me, as I was
working for an executive searchfirm based out of Boston and
what they would do is basicallysearch committees, mission
aligned institutions, and atthat point I thought maybe it
wasn't just about putting theright leader in place.
But since then I've understoodthat this has to be really
(01:43):
community led and communityformed.
We have to learn from everybodywho was a stakeholder within
our education, higher educationcommunities and, quite frankly,
I was one of the students whohit every one of the barriers
that we talk about at CCA and toramp the strategies to make
sure that students can not onlyget through but persist and then
thrive and get into ameaningful career.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So for me, persist and then thrive and get into a
meaningful career.
So for me this is a mix ofpersonal and professional.
Yeah Well, and that's awesome.
Could you break down what someof those, what the challenges
are in terms of the completionand I think you have 18 that you
sort of work on at ColleagueCollege in America Can you give
(02:23):
a quick overview of that?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Absolutely so.
You know, more broadly, when wethink about students and the
ways that they think aboutwhether they are going to be
college bound or college going,it starts really early in their
education.
Sometimes folks will say that'slike third or maybe fifth or
sixth grade, and so a lot oftimes folks have already made up
their mind whether they arepart of that population, and a
(02:48):
lot of that is made through whatwere the conversations that are
happening in classrooms whetherwe are math savvy right, I'm
not a math person.
You also see it in differentways in terms of communities,
right, there's many folks youknow I represent the Gen X of
those who have gone throughcollege.
With some college no degreefailed, stopped out, didn't have
those supports, and so much ofthat was because they haven't
(03:10):
tied it back to meaningfulsupports that we know that all
of our students need.
They haven't tied to makingsure that they understand what
is needed to continue withfinancial aid, to make sure that
folks have the momentum andunderstand that doing 12 credits
a semester isn't exactly goingto get you through in four years
.
And then thinking about manywho are doing part time, what
(03:32):
does it look like for thosepathways?
How do we make sure that theyunderstand what that is.
But then, more largely and morebroadly, you know there's been a
lot said in the news and thenjust more broadly, that folks
are trying to look for meaningand belonging, understand
purpose.
What am I learning, what am Igetting out of this degree, and
(03:52):
is it going to propel me into abetter career?
We saw so much of that acrossthe pandemic and we never really
answered those questions forfolks, and folks are still
grappling for that.
And then, at the same time too,we realized that we are having
a decline in high schoolenrollments.
So that means that when we'relooking to serve, we're looking
to serve those we most likelyhave not served well, and so we
have to be very clear about whatthat looks like.
(04:12):
And so, going back to CompleteCollege America, in terms of the
body of work that we do, wehave four different pillars
across 18 strategies.
So we talk about purpose, rightin terms of what is it that
connecting your goal to yourcareer, your aspirations for
economic mobility, the momentumthat I talked on?
So where and how are we beingclear about those pathways,
providing clear clarity forstudents?
(04:34):
What does it look like forsupport so many more of us.
Affordability is such a concern.
More than 60 percent ofAmericans are living paycheck to
paycheck, so that's a hugeconcern.
More than 60% of Americans areliving paycheck to paycheck, so
that's a huge concern.
And then also making sure thatwe understand the structure and
the pathways and the differentways to get to where folks are
getting to.
More often than not, we know,especially with corporate
(04:56):
entities entering into thiseducation space, folks are
looking for things that aredigestible and consumable, so
maybe sackable credentialsleading up to further degrees or
across someone's lifetime, andso we think more broadly about
what is the lifetime learningthat we can support for our
communities and for those whoare looking for different
(05:16):
opportunities or for careerchanges.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I love that answer.
I love how holistic you are interms of sort of looking at all
these interconnected pieces.
One thing that you've mentioneda few times is that sort of
like broader purpose and thenthe sort of the meaning behind
it.
What's, what's that look likefrom a sort of implementation
piece for you all, because it'slike that's such a tricky one
(05:39):
and you're you're doing work,that sort of focus on this sort
of like this region, state,national levels, but then it's
institution focused.
You have this like really sortof holistic piece.
What's that look like inpractice in terms of like how
you support that?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, you know, I would say you know a lot of
information I like to pull fromthe folks who are doing work
over at Gallup because I thinkit's really interesting in terms
of perceptions and whetherfolks are prepared for the
workforce, whether they havethose critical skills, and so
when I think a bit about thepurpose piece, I think about it.
You know there's a duality, butthen there's also a pluralistic
piece to it too.
(06:15):
So I think about.
So often we say to folks whatdo you want to be when you grow
up?
I feel like we're asking thewrong questions.
What's the change you want tobe?
What is it that you're seeingthat's a need within your
community?
So many of our folks areplace-based or want to be able
to contribute to that.
So we talk more broadly aboutwhen we talk about
(06:36):
implementation.
We talk about where do we bringopportunity to explore what are
interests, the careeropportunities that are available
.
You know I am what?
Well, I was about to give myage, but I still talk about the
jobs, the careers that I stilllearn about, that I have never
heard of or that evenpotentially existed.
And I think that's the otherpart of widening up for students
(06:59):
so that they have more of aninformed choice and they're not
kind of siloed into choices.
Because when we think about whenand how students and learners
get into college, so many ofthem is like, well, I have to go
or it's an expectation, but atthe same time, on the other side
are those who are I'm not sosure about what my options are
available to me, and then wealso know that they narrow very,
(07:20):
very quickly in terms of whattheir options are available in
terms of neighbors, familymembers and others, and so we
want there to be a broaderopportunity, for there to be an
exploration and then for them tobe more mindful, more part of
that, and so that is part of thecurriculum every step of the
way.
So it's not just a first yearexperience, it's not just talked
(07:43):
about orientation.
It's not safe to talk aboutwhen I was in college at the end
and like, oh snap, I got to getout and I got to figure out
what exactly I'm going to do,Like we're not at those moments
anymore.
We shouldn't be.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, that makes that makes all sense to me and,
coming from a similar place toyou right, bidhamton, new York,
very similar Harrisburg it'slike you have this tiny tiny
sliver of idea of what careersare that are completely based on
, like your neighborhood, yoursub area, like all of this kind
of thing.
So I love that sort of allthose through lines that you
(08:16):
have to sort of like figure itout the sort of bigger thing and
broadening your horizonshorizons and also like the.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
What change do you?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
want to see.
I think it's such a powerfulreframe for helping people see,
like, what are somepossibilities that you could
sort of have and what's the sortof larger purpose that is sort
of connected to that.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Agree.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
You have some really cool emphasis in your frame on
the CCA frameworks around thoseearly momentum metrics for for
institutions and for students.
Can you walk us through whatthose are?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah.
So you know one of the biggestones I would say that we always
talk through and that we're likecome on, folks change, change.
Change is gateway courses andgateway success, right.
So we talk about passingcollege level math and English
in year one.
We know those are powerfulpredictors in terms of
throughputs for those who makeit to college completion.
However, we know that enoughpeople don't take a look at
(09:09):
those or understand whatbarriers those are for students.
I personally right when I talkabout this as a mix of personal
and professional.
We also see there's adifference when people move
between institutions.
So you're at a communitycollege, you get placed into dev
ed, but then you go to afour-year college who does not
put you into that place or thatplacement, but they put you into
(09:30):
a four-year and there isn'tconsistency in terms of what
that looks like.
And so that's another one wherewe talk really broadly was like
what are the bottlenecks?
So, even when we're talkingabout math and English, but then
more broadly, what are theother bottlenecks that we're
seeing that are that?
(09:51):
You know institutions need totake a broader look at.
I think the other one that wetalk about is you know, that's
the credit accumulation right.
How do we make sure, even andlet's be clear like we stepped
away from the 15 to finish,right, because we realized that
was a very narrow pathway for avery narrow population of
students.
So what we say is, and what theresearch shows us is take one
more class right.
When can you take one moreclass?
(10:11):
What would that look like toadd it to your schedule?
But then also, that adds forour institutions to be more
perceptive and understanding ofour students in terms of the
different times and theavailability for them.
Right, I think the hotspots formost students, or for when
faculty like to schedule, isTuesdays and Thursdays, right In
(10:31):
the mornings.
But we have to think about howdo we make it flexible for
students who have multiple lives, multiple responsibilities,
caregiving responsibilities, etcetera.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I love that answer.
What are the gaps you see interms of that sort of like the
data collection on the front endand then like that actual sort
of equity centered action?
I thought that's like such apowerful example there of, like
you know, you have these, likethis is convenient for one
person, but it's you know, itdoesn't really sort of work for
the person that has these sortof layered responsibilities.
(11:03):
What are other sort of gapsthat you see between the two?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, well, you know, I would say that when we're
thinking about that too, andlike a shout out, a huge shout
out to our IR folks, right,because they are doing the work
of so many and then also tryingto improve the data literacy of
their colleagues, right, so theycan make these changes, and so
when I think more largely aboutwhat does that look like, what
(11:28):
could it be, what are kind ofthe hesitations we got to think
about the clean data, the datathat actually is actionable and
allows us to make changes in themoment, within a semester or
for the next semester or term,depending on how colleges are
situated, and so it has to betimely and it has to provide
(11:48):
insights that are not only goodfor disaggregated populations
but aggregate populations andalso informed resource
allocation, and so that's alarger piece that you know, when
we think about strategicfinance and the use of our
dollars to either fundcompletion, we have to think
more broadly about what couldthat look like to make our
(12:08):
education, our institutions, ourfaculty, our staff much more
nimble to respond to whatthey're seeing in the data.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Do you find there's like I knowyou all do some really sort of
comprehensive work across statesystems and institutions?
Are there under leveragedpolicy mechanisms or funding
mechanisms that you think couldbe sort of better used?
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, I mean, I think there's.
I think that's tough right,because I think there's a lot of
things that come up that areunfunded mandates, right.
So in terms of the state ofthat that pie and what that
looks like, the other thing I'dalso mention is that we've seen
state funding has changeddramatically over the last
decades, and so that that is aconcern as well.
(12:57):
I think there are policy levers, but, quite frankly, part of it
and part of the work that we dois educating but then also
advocating, and so the when Ithink about policy levers, I
think largely more aboutcompletion funding and I think
about getting to that point ofwhere we are actually funding
success and what does it looklike to fund at that level.
(13:18):
As someone who's really alwaysworked in the student support
space for so, so long and was abeneficiary of the TRIO services
right, really intensive Ialways realized that many more
students could benefit from that, but the fundings and the
dollars weren't available.
The other part I also thinkabout as a policy lens is like
(13:38):
this None of these, none of thechallenges that we're facing in
higher education are isolated tojust our, our area, our field,
and so we talk so broadly aboutpartnerships, but in terms of
actually getting really capitalP with partnerships, right, and
I say B almost like buddy, likelet's become really good friends
(14:00):
and let's work together.
And so what does that look likein terms of when we're using
folks to support us with mentalhealth supports, with social
services, supports withcurriculum development and
looking in terms of teaching andlearning so much is happening
within the digital learningspace, so much is happening with
AI, which I know we'll get totalk to a little bit more but I
(14:20):
think about where we provideguidelines and not necessarily
rough policies, because I thinka lot of times policies can be
over-interpreted and I thinkwe're also seeing that in the
space right now, which I thinkfolks are just being really
careful in terms of where thepolicies that are going to take
place, which we're very focusedat this moment with state
(14:41):
policies, in terms of the changethat they can make immediately
within their states to make surethat they get the funding that
will fund the completion agendayou know, as we describe it and
talk about it at CCA and thenalso lead to greater outcomes
and greater opportunities withinour communities, which many of
those, when you're listening tokind of the public discourse is
what they're have an appetitefor and what they're searching
(15:03):
for.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Completely.
Yeah, I love that, I love thatanswer.
Where do you find that collegeleaders just don't fully grasp
the whole picture?
Or if you could sort of just,you know, like get in front just
to like say one or two thingsto college presidents, um high
level administrators, like whatare the stories, what are the
narratives, what are the piecesof the pie that you you're
(15:26):
seeing that you wish people sortof understood better um, oh
well, you know, I think we havetalked about who needs to be at
tables and who needs to be indiscussions, but we haven't
fortified ways where that isalways that, where that becomes
the norm.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
And so you know where we're always kind of circling
and saying if there's only, ifwe're only relying on one or two
individuals to be the folks tosay so-and-so should be here, or
I think such-and-such should behere, or this isn't represented
, we're still going to miss allof the learnings that we could
have from the data that we'recollecting and the questions
that we're asking.
What students may miss isstudents want to do good for the
(16:15):
communities, learners want todo good for the communities and
a broader swath of who we'rethinking of, of our potential
learners.
I think we still too narrowlyand I think some universities
can afford to be narrow in theirfocus we still too narrowly
think about high schoolgraduates, when we really need
to think about folks who havejust been at the ether, have
some college, no degree, havefolks who are just as impacted,
(16:38):
have folks who may be trying tocome back in different ways, and
we also have to think about theways that people are grappling
and what we're going through orcontinue to go through.
The pandemic was a collectivetrauma right.
So when we think about mentalhealth, substance abuse and
where we are, we think about,you know just we're seeing in
terms of the polarization withinour country, the lack of
(17:01):
connectivity, the need for civicengagement, and so even just
thinking about that being putinto the discourse and folks
being able to agree, to disagreebut be able to have
conversation, I think those arethe things that make us better,
and I think always thinking thatit's a thing to do that is kind
of outside of us versus it'sour own internal work, I think
(17:22):
is also the other thing thatsometimes I think leaders miss.
Leaders sometimes may think thatthey need to have all the
answers.
They don't, and I think theyneed to leave room to not be the
experts and to actually learnfrom others, and so I think
that's the bigger piece as well.
And then I also want to saythat we just have to make sure
that our supports, ourstructures, our pathways match
(17:46):
the reality of our students, ofthose who are trying to come on
board and get a furthereducation, and I just still
there's so much work that weneed to do there.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I agree.
I've long said that I thinkhigher education has a massive
design problem.
I think if you look at any, youknow whether it's a product or
service or community, whatever.
Those that have like the mostuptake, the most stickiness like
are really centered uniquely onthe needs of the users and have
like feedback loops andmechanisms and design structures
(18:20):
in place to sort of change thenot just change the outcomes,
but sort of change the serviceand delivery mechanism to truly
work in a way that like worksfor the population.
And that's something that haslong been missed from higher ed,
which is very sort of top down.
So I feel like there's just toyour point, there's feedback
(18:42):
loops, mechanisms, but also asort of a restructuring that can
and should happen.
That is so complicated justgiven all the sort of
intersecting parts, but for usto sort of really moves the next
place, um, I think we we reallyneed and that's part of what
excites me about the the greatwork that you all are doing- I
appreciate that, mike um what?
(19:04):
where do you find thatinstitutions tend to get stuck
um right, because you know,there's I think there's there's
really sort of big ideas,there's amazing data and
research that you all are sortof like forming.
Where do you find that placescan kind of get mired in making?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
the transitions happen that are really effective
.
Well, you know, I think acouple of things right, because
we think so broadly aboutleadership and change and
culture change and what thatlooks like.
And you know, what I would sayis what separates the movers
from those who kind ofcontinually get stuck or aren't
able to do the work.
I think it's alignment from thetop and empowerment on the
(19:41):
ground, right, like we reallyhave to give that empowerment to
the folks and give agency.
We need to be aware of powerdynamics in the room where we
support people.
So when we think aboutpresidents, provosts, advisors,
they all have to be rowing inthe same direction and bought
into it.
I think data transparency fuelsurgency and focus, but it has
to be often and you have to feelcomfortable having those
(20:04):
conversations too often.
Sometimes, when data is shared,it's seen as being punitive, and
I think that's just because ofhow infrequently it happens and
we're not giving also the powerfor folks to say, well, let's
think about this and let's kindof make sense of the data, let's
have an inquiry session andtalk more broadly about it.
Um, those who have start stories, start meetings with student
(20:32):
stories and disaggregated dataright, it tells us so much and
reveals so much, but then thatallows people to get to be part
of those conversations.
What else do you think thismight mean, um, and what do you
think this may lead us towards?
What do you think the future isin terms of the ways that we're
thinking about, programming andofferings?
Um, and then I also think aboutthe for those who weren't
really doing the work.
They were funding and elevatingimplementation leaders, right,
(20:54):
not just like strategic leadersor strategic planners, but folks
who have given and have given alot of their lives to this work
.
And so I always like to say forfolks, like for folks, there's
so many folks who are alreadydoing this work, so I just got
to shout out all of those folkswho are doing so much of this
good work, right, but it gets,it gets stagnant or it stays in
(21:14):
silos.
And so just that part where youempower everybody from the top
down and people know what theirrole is in student success,
right, when I think it wasprobably about five or six or
seven years ago when we startedseeing the VP of student success
, right, and so much of that waskind of bringing the student
affairs, student services sidelike the provost, academic
(21:36):
student affairs and academicaffairs aside back into it.
And I think that is verypromising, right, because it's
like we're all in this togetherbut we do it in different ways.
And then how do we elevate theroles of folks who are doing
doing this work and haveactually been supporting our
students in so many differentways?
So I always think aboutdisability services,
accessibility, accommodations.
I think about many of thecenters that we have on campus,
(21:58):
whether it's for communitystudents or for students across
different populations.
I think about you know, ourathletics folks.
I think about our careerexploring you know our career
counseling folks, right.
And I think about the dualityof where folks have not only
provided and told about theservices that they're providing
but cross-trained theircolleagues so that they knew and
there were just a dearth.
(22:19):
And you're going to hear me sayover and over again like support
, support, support, right,because that's so much of that
is so foundational to ourstudents, to helping them
persist and continue on.
But too much of that we kind oflet go of, even though we have
insights through financial aidand other means and to knowing
what they need and and from ourfaculty too, right Early alerts
(22:40):
have been around for a really,really, really long time.
They could, really they couldbe used as equity for, as a
lever for equity, but often, youknow, it just goes beyond just
maybe that one student right, soholistically, how are they
looking at that and theinterventions?
How they're, whether they'rethey're helping, whether they
may be harming or whether theymay be more neutral?
(23:02):
And then the last thing I'llsay, too, is about utilization
of services.
Are students coming in the sameway and what are the ways in
which they want to be able toself-serve but then also
sometimes be able to have thatcontact with that human?
Regardless of how we go intothis digital age, we will still
need a human, and I love that.
(23:26):
Our people, our students,everyone still talks about that.
Ai and technology and so manythings are kind of happening to
us.
Where do we start co-creatingthat and thinking about the ways
that we drive it for theproblems that we see, for the
solutions that we need, versusletting those be dictated to us?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I love that and I think that's a great segue to
you.
Wrote this great report,co-authored a great report
around sort of generatingcollege completion.
You outlined five differentstrategies for essentially what
that looks like Can youcontextualize what that is and
then like where you see places,perhaps getting it wrong where
(24:07):
you see places perhaps gettingit wrong.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, so you know, I this, this the larger report,
and I well, I'm pausing to saylike I want to give a shout out
to everyone who was a part ofthis.
Right, so we have our, ourcouncil for our council for AI,
through complete college America.
Right, so that is a number offolks from under-resourced
institutions, aplu associations.
Right, community colleges,tribal colleges, HBCUs and
(24:36):
minority serving institutions.
Right so, folks who were kindof always put to the margins in
terms of their voice or justbeing able to be a part of this
space, and so that was veryimportant in terms of that,
those individuals who areforming our body of work and
kind of keep us true tounderstanding and making sure
that we're serving all learners.
In terms of the report ofgenerating college completion,
(24:56):
again shout out to ourconsultants and colleagues on
this Audrey Ellis from T3,advising, and then also
internally, charles Ansel is ourVP of Research, data and
advocacy.
Right, and so you know, fromthe report, a couple of the key
learners was just understandingthat one of the most understood
or misunderstood strategies isacademic momentum metrics, and
(25:16):
people think that GPA alwaystells the whole story, but it
doesn't, right, and so, you know, one of our thing is is that we
just want to make sure and wewant to talk about often and
everywhere, as much as we can.
So, mike, again thanks forgiving the space is the
misinterpretation of metricsthat just leave the surface
level interventions Right.
(25:37):
So you know I think this wasSimon Sinek, I believe it was
like the why, the why, the why,the why, the why Right, like the
five why is how to get down alittle bit deeper into what's
actually taking place and thenuances.
Folks will tell you that youknow, we know it's GPA, we know
this and we know that for areally long time.
But what we have not known andwhat we haven't surfaced are the
(25:58):
nuances in terms of when andhow and why.
We are still sticking to GPA asthe whole story, in terms of
our students, in terms of theirpotential and in terms of their
readiness.
I think the other thing that wetalk about is kind of structural
redesign, right, that's biggerthan just thinking about fixing
students.
We've seen institutions turnaway from that, but we also
(26:19):
still see folks who say and putit on the student problem with
not understanding systemicbarriers that come into place,
right, and so we talk morebroadly about.
You know this means aboutcreating systems that work for
students and not asking studentsto work around broken systems.
So even just something in termsof just you know, did the focus
group not too long ago talkingabout dual enrollment or credit
(26:41):
for prior learning?
You go to any other institutionthat looks completely different
.
Students will are waiting forthese decisions to be made.
Meanwhile they have enrolled atthese institutions and then to
come find out that they only getone or two or few or maybe no
credits for what they have doneprior, and so that's a lot of
times that's a slap in the facein terms of asking them to put
in so much and to get so littleback.
(27:03):
I think the other piece aboutthis, too, is thinking about
when we think about curriculumand what's happening within the
conversations that we're having.
Are we actually getting thoselife skills and the skills that
are going to serve us criticalthinking, problem solving we
think about even the AIworkforce infused skills?
Are those happening in theclassroom, and is it happening
in the ways that it needs to,just across our education system
(27:26):
and not based on funding levels, which I think is unfortunately
where we kind of always seem tofall.
And then when I think aboutstructural redesign, I think the
largely about that too is likehumility, right, in terms of
just saying, listen, this isn't.
I think we have to step backfrom our identities, whether
it's as faculty members,administrators or expertise that
(27:47):
we might think we have in.
Step back from our identities,whether it's as faculty members,
administrators or expertisethat we might think we have in
this field, to say, what if thebarriers are ours and not theirs
?
What if we can't wrap our hands, wrap our heads around a
different way of knowing or adifferent type of metric to
track?
That gives us a little bit morenuance into our students?
And then you know, we talk aboutthe momentum that's needed for
(28:10):
adult learners.
So you know, the example wealways like to say is like we
will give all of the differentflexible pathways for those
who've already gotten a degree,right.
Like folks thought that comingon and offering Coursera or some
of these other ones would justopen up for folks to kind of
learn at their own pace,especially those who maybe had
not attended college.
(28:30):
But what we found is that it'smostly those who already have
degrees who are accessing thosetypes of resources, right?
And so when we think about butthen, right, what can we learn
about what we're offering inthese kind of executive pathways
or these pathways for folks whoare like graduate students,
flexible, pacing, modularcourses and I go back again to
talking about stackablecredentials and what does that
(28:51):
look like in terms of like, hey,if you want to come back, this
creates and goes into a pathwayfor you or puts you right into
an apprenticeship or into a job,right, because we know you
don't.
When we think about you know,this is something that pains me
is that increasingly, we seeless and less of our males going
into higher education, right,and so that's a big concern for
(29:12):
me.
Thinking about, what is it thatwe're missing out there?
And then, what is it in termsof the need for so many families
to get there?
And we know that folks alsoneed to earn while they learn,
right, so where do we bring thatinto that, so that that is
available for folks?
And then we also have to thinkabout advisors, faculty and
others who are trained in justlife staging right and inclusive
(29:35):
career mapping.
What could that look like interms of when we talk more
broadly about that, what's realversus these traditional, which
is now non-traditional in termsof the ways that we think about
mapping them to a career ormoving into a field of study.
And then the last thing I wouldsay and I think this is the
thing that's really aboutdriving change is data
(29:57):
transparency right.
We know across the board, andwe've seen it, and I've seen it
also in this role, but thenacross my time at other
organizations is thatinstitutions that publicly share
completion equity gaps shiftfaster, right.
Public dashboards one of thebiggest things to talk about
public dashboards in Indiana ledto stronger advising reform
statewide, right.
(30:17):
So what does that mean?
When folks are sharing andinterrogating and talking about
that data a little bit more, italso means that they feel much
more bought into the process,because I think that's the other
part about when you, when youdon't share, share something you
were, whether you areacknowledging it or not you're
telling people we, we don't needyour advice or we don't need
you to look into these things.
And I think you know at thispoint in time, we see our
(30:40):
learners, our folks who are noton our campuses right now, who
are kind of peeking and justsaying where and how can I have
a stake in this?
Or if I don't, I don't want tobe a part of that and I think
that that part is veryproblematic and troubling as we
think about the future of highered, absolutely, absolutely love
that answer and just theholistic sort of nature of it
(31:01):
and all the sort of intersectingpieces.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know, I know one thing that I've sort of seen
happen quite a bit with, uh,with leaders that are sort of
trying to balance all the maybesort of accreditation challenges
the uh you know, the fundingchallenges, the business model
challenges, all these kind ofthings.
I think they can get reallysort of mired in the
complexities of like whatredesign looks like and you know
(31:24):
, I think, reallywell-intentioned people wanting
to sort of move in a newdirection but sort of being
stuck in a system.
What would be the sort of likethe low-hanging fruit first
steps you'd recommend for, youknow, for a leader that like
knows that they could be doing abetter job, and sort of like,
designing institutions to sortof like have better work, better
(31:44):
transparency, you know, beingmore student-centered, all those
sort of really important thingsthat you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
What would be?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
those like first, like one to two steps, that you
say like just start here andthen start digging a little bit
deeper.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, so I you know.
I think the thing for me wouldbe like let's take a look at
your data, right, how broadlyare you looking at it?
And then do you have theability to look at your data?
What are you able to pull?
I think that is the biggestpiece understanding your metrics
key, your metrics tree mapping.
(32:18):
You know I feel like I'm goingin kind of heavy, but I'm like
mapping those metrics back toyour strategic plan so folks can
understand and see themselvesin the work.
I think that's the other part.
There's a couple differentthings.
If the data isn't there andyou're not able to really get
some insights off the data, orif you're just reporting on data
that you have to report to thefederal government or for
accreditation, you're missingout on a lot.
(32:39):
So expand that data set andinvoke leaders from across your
institution to say about some ofthe things that they would like
to see.
Invoke leaders from across yourinstitution to say about some
of the things that they wouldlike to see, because I think
there is a laundry list of folkswho are trying to figure this
out and are continue to do thisin silos, and I think just how
powerful it could be at a highend.
There's one other question youasked me, but I'm going to ask
you to ask it again because Ithink I might've missed it.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
You absolutely nailed it.
No, that's perfect.
There's so many challenges inthis space.
Maybe it's a fun place to justwrap up.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
What gets you excited about the road ahead?
Well, you know what?
I'm a person who's right in themiddle thinking about AI
because I think it has so muchpromise, but I think there's
always a utopia or dystopianfuture about it and I think, the
way I am, it's forcing us tochange in a way that we haven't,
and the ways that we measurehow, what we think is about
(33:35):
student success and the lengthof time to get a degree.
I think it's really challengingus, even though there were
external pressures and differenttypes of modalities and
different types of corporateentities who were forcing us in
that way too.
But I also see that folks areactually in a learning phase
right now, whether they want toadmit it or not, because there's
(33:55):
so much happening and we'relearning so much about our
government.
We're learning so much aboutour people.
We're learning so much aboutjust the frustrations that other
people have, that I feel likewe're in this place where folks
are like I'm willing to listen,I'm willing to learn, but I also
want to be a part of thisprocess and how and I think
that's the part where you knowwe talk about Complete College
(34:18):
of America, about buildingmovements, and folks are
chomping the bit about.
How do I get involved?
How do I make this moremeaningful?
What does that look like for mycommunities?
How do I be?
How do I get involved?
How do I make this moremeaningful?
What does that look like for mycommunities?
How do I make a contextual forwhat is needed here and now?
And what I love about this isthat there's so many people who
are increasingly lending theirvoices to this space or offering
thoughts, opinions and ideas.
(34:39):
I think, when we think about Ihave never liked the idea of
someone saying I'm an expertbecause at that point you have
decided that your learning isover and I.
What I feel like at this pointis that many of us within higher
ed and then the surroundingkind of space and entities, are
asking some really deepquestions about what does it
(34:59):
mean to actually support anindividual's life so that they
can thrive?
And then what does it mean interms of what are the skills
that are just very fundamentalthat we should be talking about
and that we should be providingto our learners when and how
they return to us, and what arethe things that we can kind of
leave off right and allow forthem to do and think about
(35:21):
different ways of exploring.
And so I you know, what am Iexcited about?
I'm excited about that there's adifferent way of just thinking
about it, that there'spossibilities, that there's more
people brought into the workand that there's so many people
who are passionate about makingit better.
And so you know why do Icontinue to be in this work?
Because there's so many peoplelike me and not like me, with
(35:45):
varied and different experiences, who are giving up their minds
and their space, and I thinkthat, in and of itself, is like,
when we're all in it together,right, and that's where I'm like
, hopeful for that.
We can all be in this togetherto just make it a better
community for ourselves and tojust make better lives, so that
we can be folks who can upliftothers while we are uplifting
(36:06):
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
It's a beautiful answer.
I think that's a great place toend it, Misi.
Thanks so much.
I appreciate you.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
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