February 28, 2025 • 52 mins
What does it take to run a 900-student college in the heart of Silicon Valley—next door to Stanford, no less?
Steven Weiner, President of Menlo College, joins me for a deep dive into leadership, strategy, and what makes Menlo stand out in a crowded higher ed ecosystem.
In this episode, we discuss:
Why small colleges have a unique edge in today’s market.
How Menlo leverages its Silicon Valley location for career readiness.
The JCPenney effect in higher ed pricing—and what it means for tuition models.
Operational efficiencies, from outsourcing IT to tackling athletic travel costs.
Steven’s insights offer a fresh perspective on differentiation, student success, and navigating higher ed’s evolving challenges.
Whether you’re in higher ed or just curious about running a complex institution, this is one conversation you won’t want to miss.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
real to be back with steven wiener at menlo college.
Steven, how are you whiner?
I'm so sorry that's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I can't mispronounce your last name, so I can't.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I can't return the favor it's very good to see you,
mike, it's it's great to seeyou too and I appreciate you.
You coming back for a secondpiece.
You know I thought our firstconversation was we covered so
much ground, um, and I think inthe span of 40 minutes it's
tricky sometimes to really sortof go deep on um complexities
(00:34):
around business model andpositioning and all those pieces
.
So I thought we did a reallygood job of sort of covering the
broader landscape but, um, Ithought it'd be really fun to
dive in and go a little bitdeeper.
You know, I think you've builtsome great brand pillars at
Menlo.
I think you've figured outpositioning and or you know,
(00:56):
working to really sort offiguring out positioning,
partnerships and all these otheraspects in such a crowded space
.
But really sort of curious fromyour perspective, you're in
this like crazy crowded andnoisy ecosystem of Silicon
Valley.
How do you think aboutdifferentiation and signaling to
the right student that you'vegot a product, you've got a
(01:19):
service that is really sort ofunique and valuable?
How do you message that to theright people in such a noisy
ecosystem?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, a great question, and one we have to
address almost every day, iswe're not just talking to
prospective students and theirfamilies but, for that matter,
talking to current students andhelping them understand the
opportunities that are availableto them here at Menlo that
(01:50):
wouldn't be available elsewhere.
Before we started this call, wetalked about retention.
Connecting current studentswith their institution and
ensuring those connections arekept strong and warm is such a
key responsibility, but for bothcurrent and prospective
(02:16):
students, our size is thedifferentiator when it comes to
local institutions here in theValley.
But, truth be told, we're notcompeting to a great extent with
other schools here in SiliconValley when there's a school
(02:36):
with a name like Stanford twomiles away from you.
Generally speaking, those arevery different considerations
for a prospective student andthey aren't comparing us to
Stanford.
But we are being compared tostate schools within California,
where about more than half ofour students live.
(02:58):
They're comparing us against UCor Cal State, as well as other
small privates spread throughoutthe state.
Some students alreadyappreciate the extent to which a
small college would beadvantageous for them, and so
they are more laser focused onthe opportunities available at
(03:22):
small colleges here andelsewhere, but a lot of students
are unsure that that's what thebenefits might be, whether
that's socially, but alsoacademically.
We need to make the case thatthere are many people for whom a
(03:44):
small college is the key totheir success.
I often say to people ourstudents again just using
California students as areference point, for now most of
the students we accept couldalso get accepted into a UC or
Cal State school.
(04:09):
Accepted into a UC or Cal Stateschool UC they have fewer spots
to offer, so let's just say CalState.
But for so many of our studentstheir opportunity to be
successful is dramaticallyincreased here because our size
allows them to personalize theirjourney in ways that a large
school just can't.
And I love large schools, I lovethe diversity of the higher ed
(04:29):
landscape, because all of us arediverse and we have different
needs.
Our students tend to benefit inunique ways from the extent to
which we're able to personalizetheir higher ed journey, and
it's both with respect to how weaccommodate what might be their
unique learning needs but alsohow we are able to help them
(04:57):
understand their ability to besuccessful, what they tap into
their own potential in ways that, again, a larger school would
struggle.
Some larger schools do itbetter than others, but I'd say
a fair generalization is it'smuch, much more difficult for a
(05:17):
large school to do that.
Now.
We also talked about how wedifferentiate ourselves now in
the larger market, and that'swhere our Silicon Valley
connection becomes so key andour internship is so key to that
.
The opportunities for peoplewho choose to go directly into
the workforce immediately upongraduation are great here versus
(05:41):
most schools, and that's whereour internship and our
connections to Silicon Valleyreally become key pieces of the
puzzle.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I love that answer.
So many great things.
I think that small is acompetitive advantage.
I also like how you alluded toI think that's not enough for it
that the differentiator beingat Silicon Valley and having
such a unique value propositionin such a unique place really
sort of like layers on differentlevels of value and intersects
(06:16):
with the small, intimate naturethat you're sort of offering to
just create a sort of morecompelling value proposition.
And last time, you know, wetalked about some other sort of
unique aspects too that I thinkjust have a unique throw to them
.
How do you think about this so athing that we sort of hear
consistently right and just, youknow, not surprising across the
(06:39):
spectrum just finances justbeing such a really tricky thing
for everybody to manage.
And there's a lot when it comesto sort of operating a small
college.
You know economies of scalearen't exactly in your favor as
compared to, you know, largerschools.
You still have to pay, you know, fairly high for vendors and
(07:05):
different sort of pieces, solike your costs are just sort of
relatively high.
You all have done such a greatjob of, I think, building that
donor support and getting thesort of revenue from donors to
sort of like augment thatoperating budget, support
endowment and some other pieces,that operating budget, support
(07:25):
endowment and some other pieces.
But how do you think about thattricky balance between you want
to be not overly relying onyour donors but at the same time
, you know, have philanthropicgoals that you know sort of
supporting your student needs.
How do you balance that withtuition revenue to make your
operating budget work?
How do you balance that?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
with tuition revenue to make your operating budget
work.
Yeah, I wish I had a reallywonderful, succinct answer that
pointed to our distinction.
In truth, that's a struggleeach and every day at a place
like this.
It also now come back tomessaging and how we attract
(08:09):
Tuition's an interesting elementin the puzzle.
(08:41):
Our stated tuition is high.
It's in the ballpark for smallprivate institutions but
compared to a beyond what thelist price may be on the website
, they quickly understand thatsmall colleges like ours provide
a lot of financial support tomake it possible.
There was every year.
(09:16):
There are a few smallinstitutions like ours that
attempt to break out of thetuition model that has been so
broadly embraced and instead ofoffering a very high tuition and
very high aid to make itfinancially feasible, they try
and bring both down.
It's an interesting phenomenon.
There aren't many exampleswhere that has been successful.
First of all, it requires quitean investment to even go down
(09:36):
that path, because the messagingthat you need to provide both
prospective and current membersof the community to help them
understand what that change intuition and aid means is a
significant investment.
But we also have a phenomenonthat back in ancient days, when
(10:00):
I was in business school wascoined the JCPenney effect.
And long before you came along,mike JCPenney decided hey,
we're getting out of the salesbusiness, we're going to lower
our prices and never have sales.
And what happened?
Their revenue plummeted becausewe all like a deal.
(10:20):
We all like a deal, and so what?
A and B?
We tend to attach value toprice, so people saw JCPenney's
prices as low.
They assumed the quality waslow and they didn't have the
opportunity for a sale.
There's some of that that playswith higher ed.
(10:41):
People recognize small schoolswith high tuitions as schools
that must do something well todeserve that.
And I'll say yes, absolutely inthe case of Menlo College.
But it's also the case that weprovide a great deal of aid,
much of which is funded by ourdonor community, to make it
(11:03):
possible for students to beeducated here at Menlo College.
And while it'd be intriguing tothink about an approach that
would bring our tuition way downour aid way down what's unclear
is we know now we lose somestudents, prospective students,
(11:26):
who may come to our website, seeour tuition and just not go
beyond that, because they don'tunderstand the extent to which
aid can be available to them.
We also might lose students inthis new scenario where our
tuition is way down, becausethey would look at us and say
(11:47):
they can't be that good a schoolif their tuition is half of
fill-in-the-blank other schoolthat they may be taking into
account.
But it is also the case thatour cost base is very high.
Even if we existed in themiddle of nowhere in this
(12:09):
country, in a rural setting,costs for education are high
here, in addition to the I'lljust say it in a positive sense
the vibrancy of the SiliconValley economy.
Wages are high, cost of livingis high and so we bear that
(12:31):
additional expense as well.
The structure and support thatwe provide, the enhanced support
that we provide every studentthat I referred to earlier in
response to your first question,that comes with a cost right.
We dedicate a number of peopleon this campus for that purpose,
to ensure that we don't losetrack of each student's progress
(12:55):
but also each student'schallenges, and then figure out
how we devise support to addressthe challenges they may face.
To address the challenges theymay face.
But the other aspect of yourquestion, the engagement of the
donor community in keeping thatbalance.
Well, first of all, it's farmore than tuition.
(13:17):
We drive a significant amount ofstudent revenue by virtue of
providing housing to ourstudents on campus, and that's
an important piece of it.
We also monetize other aspectsof our business enterprise that
may seem not directly related toour core mission, which is this
broad category that we callcamps and conferences.
(13:39):
It's basically rental activity.
How do we, particularly in thesummer, when our facilities are
underused, how do we monetizethat?
By engaging members of thecommunity, broadly defined,
because we get people from allover the world to come here to
take advantage of our locationin the heart of Silicon Valley,
(14:00):
sometimes for educationalpurposes that we play a role in
providing, and sometimes we'rejust a landlord and it's a
program that a third party ishosting.
Very often it's a youth sportscamp, which we pursue both for
(14:20):
the revenue generation but alsobecause it's a way of brand
exposure and potentiallyidentifying talent we may want
to recruit at some point in time.
But if we didn't have and wetalked about this during our
first conversation if we didn'thave engaged donors who believed
in our mission, who believedthat it's incredibly important
(14:44):
to provide the kind of hands-onsupport to our students and
providing our students withaccess to Silicon Valley, if we
didn't have those donors, we'dbe closing shop, but we're
fortunate that we've been ableto develop both some key alumni
(15:09):
who have the wherewithal toprovide support, whose own
experience was meaningful andwho are the people who share
with me the expression I neverget tired of hearing, which is
Menlo changed my life, which Ido hear frequently.
But as well, we've beenextraordinarily fortunate in
(15:30):
attracting other donors,particularly from the Bay Area,
who have no connection to MenloCollege but who very much
believe in what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I love that answer.
I mean there's so many aspectsthere that I appreciate and
contextualize, I think, thecomplexity of the space you know
you mentioned really sort ofdiverse over the array of key
revenue, so many different ways.
You're actually sort of gettingto sort of supplement those
costs and augment the personalstudent experience, augment the.
(16:10):
The personal student experienceum.
The sticker price example is isa really powerful one.
Um.
There's this study and I mightbutcher a few of the, the
details, but bear with me arounduh wine um, where they actually
sort of did a blind taste.
That's what they gave uhsomebody the same sort of bottle
of wine um, but at differentprice points, and they had the
them rate, the one that theyliked best and, not surprisingly
, you know, the one that was themost expensive, right, but it
(16:34):
does get to like just thelayered nature of you know
trying to sort of you knowprovide a service that has all
the sort of accoutrements andvalue but has some cost to it.
Maybe a follow-up to that, likeif you're projecting five, 10
years out, like if you couldoptimize, like, the number of
(16:58):
students you have compared tonow versus sort of overhead
costs, right, like.
Is there an optimum there right?
Like, for instance, if youcould shift like your, if you
could, you know, somehow getless people on campus, or like
(17:18):
is it?
Is it scaling the number ofstudents?
Is it sort of like reducingoverhead over a longer period of
time?
Like, what's that optimumbalance look like from a dollars
in, dollars out perspective?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah.
So I can't translate it tospecific dollars, but the big
picture answer is yes and yes,just to keep our doors open, our
lights on, is a significantpart of our fixed expense base.
The more people we have tospread it across, the more
(17:50):
sustainable a financial model wehave.
So, for us, as we move forward,as we look out over five years,
our challenge is figuring outhow to be smarter about our
delivery, how to take advantageof new technologies, how to
selectively outsource, all witha view towards either
(18:11):
maintaining or enhancing theextent to which we provide
support, not just to ourstudents even though that's our
core mission but also ourfaculty and staff.
But at the same time, there isan opportunity for I'll call it
organic growth.
I don't see us growing by leapsand bounds and I don't think I
(18:32):
would want to Coming back to ourfirst exchange.
Our size is one of our assetsand I want to be careful about
the growth that we don't lose,that we don't lose the
opportunity to differentiateourselves in the market.
But at our high point, prior tothe pandemic, we were just
(18:55):
under 900 students and thatseemed to be a number that we
could continue to support in theway that, I think, is our
expression of real value add,and my guess is that could be
pushed somewhat more.
So what's the right number?
Is it 1,000?
(19:15):
Is it 1,100?
I don't know, but it'ssomewhere north of 900, I
believe.
And as we've penciled out thefinances, even without achieving
the efficiencies that I said,are nonetheless essential.
The financial health and thussustainability of the college is
(19:37):
much stronger when we start toget north of 900 in the number
of students, students.
The problem with looking outnone of us owns a clear crystal
ball right.
They're all cracked and cloudy.
That's what all of us arestruggling with, and there will
(19:58):
be new demands, new services,perhaps new government reporting
see what's happening with thegovernment.
That's a hot topic at themoment.
That may, in a sense, counterevery efficiency, every new
(20:22):
technology opportunity that weembrace in order to reduce our
overhead costs, but you know,the hope is that we can continue
to navigate those assuccessfully as we have, frankly
, for almost a hundred years now.
So you know that, that, no,knowing that there are almost a
(20:43):
hundred years that we'vetraveled and traveled
successfully, and I think, Ithink have improved, if not year
to year, surely at this pointin time, compared to five years
ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
This is a much stronger andvibrant institution than it was
when I first encountered and I'mnot patting myself on the back
(21:04):
that's a community effort and Iexpect that that that trend will
will continue.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, no, that's, that's really, that's really
encouraging.
And I think also you knowhyper-realistic, just given the
space of you know just howcomplex and how many moving
pieces there, everything.
What are some operationalenhancements that you're you
know, that you've you've putinto motion or that you're
excited to sort of do Becauseit's such a tricky path?
(21:35):
I think everybody's trying tofigure out right, it is a sort
of somewhat of a like you haveto invest strategically to
attract the right kinds ofstudents and retain the right
kinds of students and all thosepieces you have all these sort
of fixed costs that are sort ofgoing in.
You already sort of pointed tosome of the unique challenges
that happen in Silicon Valleythere, but what are operational
(21:57):
strategies for upskilling team,for doing these more efficiently
, for shared data, how do youthink about some of those pieces
?
As it sort of connects tomaking Menlo a sort of a more
efficient but also like just abetter run place, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So you know there are a whole slew of what I'll label
as tinkering that goes onconstantly, right?
Not any one of which amounts tohuge efficiencies, but
(22:34):
collectively moved thisinstitution.
If I were to pick out three ofthe most significant efforts we
have, one of them is tocontinually examine the
opportunities for selectiveoutsourcing, and we have moved
into that space.
To take a brief aside, I triedto explore ways in which we
(22:58):
could collaborate with otherinstitutions in the area to
share core services, and thatjust proved so complicated, so
complicated, and the resistanceto change is so strong that I
switched direction and lookedinstead to the selective
outsourcing.
I don't think there are a lotof opportunities for that, but
(23:22):
specifically with a lot of whatgenerally gets referred to as
backroom functions, whether it'sIT or HR, those are the prime
examples, possibly some of ourbusiness office functions, those
to move those off campus.
That does not affect thesupport we provide students.
In some ways it could enhancethem, but the most important
(23:46):
piece is that it allows us torealize some cost savings and to
take advantage of scale, whichotherwise we don't have.
Right, and we pursued that inno small part because of the
(24:21):
demands for IT securityknowledge that just kept
skyrocketing as the world of ITbecame more and more complex and
we realized we couldn't pretendto hold on to that knowledge
here or build that knowledgehere, that knowledge here and
build that knowledge here.
That's where our size worksagainst us, but that's where
outsourcing becomes anopportunity.
Another area that I think ishelping us achieve efficiencies,
even though up front it's hardto see where the savings are,
(24:43):
but it is in standardizing theways in which we collect data
across this institution andshare data, because if you
aren't providing the means tounderstand the ways in which we
(25:04):
are being successful and theways we're not being as
successful as we need to be, andallowing everybody to speak the
same language, have the samereference, then we're missing
out, and that's where ourinternal institutional research
function becomes so importantand providing a dashboard for
(25:26):
everyone to share access tocommon data is so important.
The third piece is a journey andperhaps not a typical response
for schools.
Menlo College has a significantinvestment in athletics.
(25:50):
More than half of our studentsare varsity athletes and it's
such an important part of theMenlo journey for
student-athletes andnon-student-athletes alike, and
it's a vibrant aspect of ourschool and enormously successful
.
I'm an enormous fan andsupporter of our athletics
(26:13):
program.
We are challenged, though, withthe expense of maintaining it,
and one of the expenses we are,I'll just say, eager I was going
to say desperate are, I'll justsay eager, I was going to say
desperate, but eager to controlis travel.
(26:36):
We're in a conference that isspread throughout Northern
California great, but alsoSouthern California and Hawaii,
and we just and we made a move.
We had been part of NAIA, wewent to NCAA, but we in no small
part we made that move becausethere were so few NAIA schools
to compete against here inNorthern California, so our
travel obligation was so great.
So there were a number of otherreasons that prompted us to
(27:00):
move to NCAA, but travel was apiece of that.
We haven't, though, was a pieceof that.
We haven't, though, as aconference, found ways to
leverage the geographicdistribution of our schools to
the full advantage, and I'mhopeful that our conference will
(27:22):
move further to have more whatI refer to as pod scheduling, so
that more and more of ourathletic competition is taking
place here in NorthernCalifornia, and less and less
travel, and travel has two bigexpenses associated One is the
direct cost of travel and theother is the indirect cost of
students being away from class,and we bear both of those costs
(27:49):
now to an extent that I hope wecan minimize going forward.
It's intriguing to me.
We're now part of NCAA D2 andmost California state campuses
are also D2.
And they are their ownconference and they're spread
(28:10):
throughout California, whichmeans San Francisco State is
going down to Cal Long Beach tocompete.
But if we just blew this all upand started over again, I don't
think anybody in their rightmind would say, oh, it's so
(28:32):
important for Cal State SanFrancisco to have a conference
mate down in Southern California, as opposed to saying, well,
wait a minute, we have all theseschools that are all D2 in
Northern California.
That should be one conferencewhich would significantly reduce
(28:53):
the travel obligation for allof us.
But that's a huge leap.
It's actually a conversation Itried to have with a few of the
Cal State presidents, one ofwhom recently chose instead to
close her athletics program.
Now she's at Sonoma State.
(29:13):
They just announced yesterdaythat they were closing all
athletics and their challengewas more than just their travel
costs.
Right, I get it Significantfinancial savings that had to be
achieved and I don't envy theirsituation at all.
But I do worry that by cuttingsuch a core program, core for
(29:40):
the student experience and theadditional development and
education that can come fromengagement in athletics and
that's no longer part of sonomastate's student experience and
and I think I think in timethey'll come to regret that that
decision there is somethingabout I mean, the cuts are such
(30:02):
a, I think, unfortunate butnecessary part of the ecosystem
we're in, but there is thissaying for a lot of times that I
think is true, which is youcan't really cut your way to
prosperity right and um.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
so you know more often than not that I've seen
that sort of just be, uh, youknow, a leading indicator to um
eventual collapse, which isreally unfortunate.
Hopefully that's not the casefor them, but it's a really
tricky space.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
There are a lot of stops along the way to collapse
right.
At any point in their stop theycould find equilibrium and
maybe that's it, A level thatjust again offers a less rich
and robust student experience,and I hope they aren't going
further than that.
I think the Cal State system isa terrific one and such an
(30:58):
important resource forCalifornia residents, so I'd
hate to see that diminished inany way.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Completely, Completely diminished in any way
, Completely, completely.
And coming back to the on theoutsourcing piece, I really like
what you said around the sortof outsourcing of IT, HR, sort
of business office functions.
To me that makes complete sense, Doesn't compromise your core
mission, has some operationalefficiencies that come with it.
You also sort of mentioned thedata collection piece of that.
(31:29):
Is this the sort of support andaugment your existing IR office
Like?
Is it looking at ways to sortof better share data?
Is it sort of like looking atlike setting up data lakes and
sort of better sort ofcollaborative automation between
systems, or what's that kind oflook like for you all?
Or what's that kind of looklike for you all?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, surely your reference data lakes.
Yes, it's also looking to seehow many systems we have and the
cost, both in terms ofinefficiencies as well as
dollars, to maintain so manydifferent systems, and the
(32:13):
challenge of ensuring dataintegrity when it's going from
system to system is asignificant one.
And it's tough because we bothwant to take advantage of new
(32:33):
technologies, new applications,new developments that may be
standalone, but when you havethese islands of data,
ultimately it hurts theinstitution and hurts the, in
the sense that it's harder tomanage when you don't have the,
the consistent way to measureyour, your, your progress, um
(33:04):
and uh.
You know that's that's tough.
Uh, uh, that's where I I am.
You know, there's so manyaspects of ai that I look at
with some trepidation, and thenthere are so many aspects of AI
that I look at with sometrepidation, and then there are
so many aspects I look at withgreat hope and in terms of
improving our IT and our datainfrastructure.
That's pure hope with respectto AI, and that's where I hope
(33:25):
to be able to embrace thattechnology as it continues to
mature.
And I think as well there maybe a whole other spectrum of
opportunities with respect to AI, that like for tutoring and for
students who have special needsand accommodating those special
(33:56):
needs.
I'm hardly the first to suggestthat AI has potential in both
those areas.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
No, I completely agree and I do think there was
some interesting.
You know we haven't seen it yet, but, to your point, what's
sort of an integrative of datasystems look like?
I think a lot of people outsideof the space don't necessarily
understand just how complicatedit is to sync your systems.
(34:26):
As simple as a valueproposition as that sounds Right
is to sync your systems?
As simple as a valueproposition as that sounds, um,
right, like they're specificallybuilt to sort of like be data
warehouses themselves, um, andconnecting the apis between two
different tools.
Um, I think there's some thatlike it, you know, say it's a
good example, it's built to dothat.
Um, so many are not all right.
(34:48):
And and you know, when you layerin on top of like the human
cost of like retrainingeverybody in a new system, or
like how layered the contractsget with any of them and they're
locked into a certain amount ofyears, um, yeah, you know it's
like it's.
It's really tricky to like totake these things and just like,
even with tools like AI areabsolutely incredible.
(35:11):
But what we're seeing with AIright now is like a lot of them
don't have easy functionalitywith these old systems, to just
sort of like plug and play andmake them magically connect
right.
So it's like it becomes reallysort of tricky to be like okay,
where do we, what data flows dowe want?
Where do we want things to go?
Who do we want to have accessto?
As simple as that all sounds,when you've got 40 different
(35:34):
systems on a small campus, it'svery complex, very fast yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
I've been around the block a whole number of times
and have talked to a number offolks who are pitching IT
solutions so many of them soundso fabulous but I have never,
ever, ever, encountered anybodywho's representing a company of
any size who says honestly, theimplementation will be tough.
(36:04):
They all say, oh, turnkey, noproblem, you're going to be up
and running in a week.
It's just not.
That's not the reality of wherewe are, even here, even now, in
2025.
It's far better in 2025 than itwas in 2015, but it's still an
(36:25):
enormous challenge and for some,some systems, one that can't,
uh, practically be overcome, sothey become standalone systems,
which is is just far from idealyeah, well, and like good
technology, like, in my opinion,it looks at the human processes
(36:46):
first, that sort of underpinhow the functionality of it
works, right, like you're, youwant it to sort of blend with
how.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
First that sort of underpin how the functionality
of it works, right, like you're,you want it to sort of blend
with how people are sort of likedoing the existing work, um,
and how they're thinking on it,and very, very few systems that
you're going to sort of onboardat an enterprise level are
actually going to do that right.
So it's like there's a lot ofretraining, a lot of sort of
other pieces that sort of gowith that, which I think make it
super, super complicated.
(37:10):
Which kind of brings me toanother question.
You had some really goodinsights before on competitive
differentiators for staff andhow you were leveraging things
like housing and benefits thatyou could sort of offer, sort of
being uniquely positioned inthe Valley for existing staff.
Can you talk a little bit moreon, like, how you think about
(37:35):
talent retention, upskilling andsome of those kind of pieces,
and how you're able to sort oflike leverage the ecosystem you
have around you to that end?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Sure, you know.
I think that's another way inwhich size plays to our
advantage for most of the peoplewe're hiring, whatever your
role here, whether you're in theclassroom, whether you're in
the payroll office, whetheryou're a member of the
(38:06):
facilities, you're engaging withstudents on a campus like this.
So the reminder of why we'rehere, why we're doing what we're
doing, is constant and for theright candidate that's an
incredible bonus, in a sense alure, because if we're
(38:29):
recruiting someone for, let'ssay since I mentioned it payroll
office and we're looking atsomebody at a much larger
institution, they won't haveengaged with students there
typically, whereas here we alldo.
We all do very directly, andwhether it's just because we all
(38:51):
eat lunch together and there'sonly one facility on campus that
serves lunch, or just becauseof the way in which our students
very quickly come to expectthat they will have access to
faculty and staff alike and willvery often look to the person
(39:13):
who may not be typically the oneone would expect a student
would look to as a mentor, as aguide or just somebody to help
them think through whateverpersonal issue they may be
grappling with.
So that's a cleardifferentiator.
I think the other aspect interms of recruiting is to
(39:38):
basically apply the same.
I don't want to use this wordand then immediately regret it.
The way in which I sell or pitchMenlo to donors and talk about
the extent to which we open ourdoors so broadly and to the
extent to which we're educatingstudents whose forebears did not
(40:00):
have access to higher education, in large part reflected in
both the first generationstudents that we serve, as well
as our dual status as both aHispanic Serving Institution and
as an Anapisi ServingInstitution Asian American and
Native American, pacificIslander Serving Institution
(40:21):
those speak to the extent towhich we have successfully
opened our doors and broadenedour reach to bring together a
truly distinctive, if notabsolute unique student
population that represent justevery walk of life.
We have a significant number ofinternational students.
(40:41):
We have 48 countriesrepresented on our small campus,
20 states in the US representedon our small campus represented
on our small campus, 20 statesin the US represented on our
small campus and, again, thesedual minority-serving
institutions plus First Gen.
You put that all together andwe're all encountering people
who don't represent typicallythe people we've encountered in
(41:05):
our lives, because we all livein social silos or most of us
live in social silos, and Ifirmly believe that all of us
become richer when we'renavigating sounds like it's more
of a challenge, but when wehave the opportunity to engage
(41:27):
with people whose backgroundsare so different from ours and I
started down this path inresponse to your question about
how do we recruit staff Well, wesell them on that, that.
That's an opportunity for theirlives to become richer, and when
I'm engaged in that recruitment, I can speak to it from
personal experience.
It from personal experience.
(41:54):
I have been at Menlo for morethan 12 years and feel
incredibly enriched by theopportunity I've had to engage
with people from so manydifferent walks of life and
understand their perspectives alittle bit more, and to also
appreciate the opportunitiesthat we're providing by virtue
of being an institution thatagain opens its doors broadly
(42:16):
and yet provides such strongsupport to enable success.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, I love that answer and just I think it
speaks to the sort of richnessand diversity and all the
different sort of unique thingsthat you get about sort of
working in that kind ofenvironment and how sort of
uniquely and interconnected andrich it is for everybody.
That's there, not just students, but you know, you as an
administrator.
(42:43):
There's a dual value.
That's that's happening.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, that's okay.
Oh sorry, yeah sorry, I'veheard it from parents.
Parents have said to me.
Every year there's at least onewho said I didn't anticipate
this coming in, but one of theways in which my child has grown
(43:07):
has been because they are,whether it's their roommate,
their classmates, theirteammates.
They are engaging with peoplewho are helping them think
differently than they used tothink, and that's you know that,
as I say, that allows us togrow, no matter our age.
(43:29):
Allows us to grow asindividuals.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah, and that's kind of what college is supposed to
do, right, and you, I think, youcan easily discount that.
You can get that benefit as anadult, which I think is a great
point.
Connecting back to something wereally sort of spoke on earlier
in the conversation, maybe thiswould be a fun place to wrap
With all the sort of politicalor you know sort of potential
(43:55):
sort of changes that are sort ofcoming.
Second, third order effects ofyou know sort of Trump
administration.
If you had to give like a quickSWOT analysis on like what you
see for Menlo, where's yourbrain go Like, what's the good,
the bad and the ugly of you knowtransition, because I do see
some sort of ambivalence andjust sort of different pieces in
(44:18):
the water here for folks.
But I'm curious, and what'syour read on that?
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And just to be sure, your question is, as I
anticipate, what might be comingfrom Washington, what's our
position and where's theopportunity and where's the
threat?
Yeah exactly, yeah, okay, wehave benefited from the extent
(44:46):
to which, increasingly, thefederal government has
recognized the unique needs ofminority-serving institutions
and has provided funding forthem, and we have been
successful in obtaining fundsboth from the Department of
Education and the NSF inparticular National Science
Foundation in particular thatare targeted for those
(45:06):
institutions in our country thatsupport minority student
populations and, to the extentthat those disappear, that's not
just a significant portion ofour revenue that goes away, but
they're funding our ability toprovide enhanced services and
(45:26):
that will go away as well.
Our students, the majority ofour students, are economically
challenged and a lot of themqualify for Pell Grant, support
for subsidized federal loans.
To the extent to which thoseprograms are pared back or
(45:47):
eliminated, that will have ahuge effect on our students and
thus our school.
And I'm obviously watching thatwith a lot of international
students.
And during the first Trumpadministration we saw
(46:17):
international student accessimpaired, whether it was simply
because the embassy staff intheir home country was reduced
or because their home countrywas no longer welcomed as a
source for students studyinghere.
(46:38):
There are also internationalstudents who have looked at the
political landscape I'm nowgoing back eight years ago who
looked at the politicallandscape and said I think I'm
going to go to canada oraustralia or or stay in their
home country, and I'm concernedthat we'll see some or all of
the above as we move forward andto the extent to which we might
(47:02):
recruit an internationalstudent and and that
international students unable toobtain their visa to study in
the United States for whatevercombination of reasons that
hurts us.
At the same time, the newadministration is committed to
looking at what they label andmany of us would also as the
(47:28):
incredible bureaucracy that hasdeveloped over time Federal
requirements, whether it'sreporting requirements or
adherence to new guidelines.
They're always additive, and wehave a significantly greater
(47:48):
compliance obligation today thanwe did when I first joined
Menlo 12 years ago, but all theobligations that we had 12 years
ago are still there, and so, tothe extent to which there may
be paring down of thebureaucracy, simplifying the
rules and reporting Hallelujah,almost all of them individually
(48:14):
well-intentioned I understandwhat brought about the
requirement, but collectivelyit's a burden, and it's a burden
that we all fall bear, and I'mnot talking about just the
things that we fit in.
I'm talking about the thingsthat collectively obligate us to
hire more staff, and so it's afinancial burden as well, and
(48:37):
some of them.
It's hard for me to see in 2025what the value add is to
anybody, and so if some of theobligations disappear, terrific,
but it's.
You know, it's like everycitizen of this country who's
(48:58):
attuned to what's happening inWashington we're all staring at
it, wondering what's coming next, and we're no different.
The higher education becamesomething of a punching bag in
recent months and unfortunately,I fear that that might be
(49:21):
increasing.
And yet we did see a rise innew student enrollment across
the country, predominantly incommunity colleges, which I
think there's something in therethat we should all be again
staring at and trying to figureout what the long-term
ramifications are, because ofthe poor track record that
(49:44):
community colleges that we have,seeing students who start with
community college ultimatelyobtain a college degree.
But we'll see how it all playsout and continue to duck and
weave and see where there areopportunities to enhance the
college based on whatever comesout of Washington.
(50:05):
But it's, yeah, it's as BettyDavis would say, it's a fasten
your seatbelt time.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, I think that's a very well balanced and
thoughtful answer, which which Iappreciate.
Stephen, thank you for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
This has been this has been incredible, mike it's
always great to talk to you,rehearse my last name if we ever
talk again.
And if we talk again, let'scompare notes about your most
recent travels and taste in thewine industry, because it's a
fun hobby for me.
Yeah, me too.
(50:42):
Thank you again.
Okay.
real to be back with steven wiener at menlo college.
Steven, how are you whiner?
I'm so sorry that's okay.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I can't mispronounce your last name, so I can't.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
I can't return the favor it's very good to see you,
mike, it's it's great to seeyou too and I appreciate you.
You coming back for a secondpiece.
You know I thought our firstconversation was we covered so
much ground, um, and I think inthe span of 40 minutes it's
tricky sometimes to really sortof go deep on um complexities
(00:34):
around business model andpositioning and all those pieces
.
So I thought we did a reallygood job of sort of covering the
broader landscape but, um, Ithought it'd be really fun to
dive in and go a little bitdeeper.
You know, I think you've builtsome great brand pillars at
Menlo.
I think you've figured outpositioning and or you know,
(00:56):
working to really sort offiguring out positioning,
partnerships and all these otheraspects in such a crowded space
.
But really sort of curious fromyour perspective, you're in
this like crazy crowded andnoisy ecosystem of Silicon
Valley.
How do you think aboutdifferentiation and signaling to
the right student that you'vegot a product, you've got a
(01:19):
service that is really sort ofunique and valuable?
How do you message that to theright people in such a noisy
ecosystem?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, a great question, and one we have to
address almost every day, iswe're not just talking to
prospective students and theirfamilies but, for that matter,
talking to current students andhelping them understand the
opportunities that are availableto them here at Menlo that
(01:50):
wouldn't be available elsewhere.
Before we started this call, wetalked about retention.
Connecting current studentswith their institution and
ensuring those connections arekept strong and warm is such a
key responsibility, but for bothcurrent and prospective
(02:16):
students, our size is thedifferentiator when it comes to
local institutions here in theValley.
But, truth be told, we're notcompeting to a great extent with
other schools here in SiliconValley when there's a school
(02:36):
with a name like Stanford twomiles away from you.
Generally speaking, those arevery different considerations
for a prospective student andthey aren't comparing us to
Stanford.
But we are being compared tostate schools within California,
where about more than half ofour students live.
(02:58):
They're comparing us against UCor Cal State, as well as other
small privates spread throughoutthe state.
Some students alreadyappreciate the extent to which a
small college would beadvantageous for them, and so
they are more laser focused onthe opportunities available at
(03:22):
small colleges here andelsewhere, but a lot of students
are unsure that that's what thebenefits might be, whether
that's socially, but alsoacademically.
We need to make the case thatthere are many people for whom a
(03:44):
small college is the key totheir success.
I often say to people ourstudents again just using
California students as areference point, for now most of
the students we accept couldalso get accepted into a UC or
Cal State school.
(04:09):
Accepted into a UC or Cal Stateschool UC they have fewer spots
to offer, so let's just say CalState.
But for so many of our studentstheir opportunity to be
successful is dramaticallyincreased here because our size
allows them to personalize theirjourney in ways that a large
school just can't.
And I love large schools, I lovethe diversity of the higher ed
(04:29):
landscape, because all of us arediverse and we have different
needs.
Our students tend to benefit inunique ways from the extent to
which we're able to personalizetheir higher ed journey, and
it's both with respect to how weaccommodate what might be their
unique learning needs but alsohow we are able to help them
(04:57):
understand their ability to besuccessful, what they tap into
their own potential in ways that, again, a larger school would
struggle.
Some larger schools do itbetter than others, but I'd say
a fair generalization is it'smuch, much more difficult for a
(05:17):
large school to do that.
Now.
We also talked about how wedifferentiate ourselves now in
the larger market, and that'swhere our Silicon Valley
connection becomes so key andour internship is so key to that
.
The opportunities for peoplewho choose to go directly into
the workforce immediately upongraduation are great here versus
(05:41):
most schools, and that's whereour internship and our
connections to Silicon Valleyreally become key pieces of the
puzzle.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I love that answer.
So many great things.
I think that small is acompetitive advantage.
I also like how you alluded toI think that's not enough for it
that the differentiator beingat Silicon Valley and having
such a unique value propositionin such a unique place really
sort of like layers on differentlevels of value and intersects
(06:16):
with the small, intimate naturethat you're sort of offering to
just create a sort of morecompelling value proposition.
And last time, you know, wetalked about some other sort of
unique aspects too that I thinkjust have a unique throw to them
.
How do you think about this so athing that we sort of hear
consistently right and just, youknow, not surprising across the
(06:39):
spectrum just finances justbeing such a really tricky thing
for everybody to manage.
And there's a lot when it comesto sort of operating a small
college.
You know economies of scalearen't exactly in your favor as
compared to, you know, largerschools.
You still have to pay, you know, fairly high for vendors and
(07:05):
different sort of pieces, solike your costs are just sort of
relatively high.
You all have done such a greatjob of, I think, building that
donor support and getting thesort of revenue from donors to
sort of like augment thatoperating budget, support
endowment and some other pieces,that operating budget, support
(07:25):
endowment and some other pieces.
But how do you think about thattricky balance between you want
to be not overly relying onyour donors but at the same time
, you know, have philanthropicgoals that you know sort of
supporting your student needs.
How do you balance that withtuition revenue to make your
operating budget work?
How do you balance that?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
with tuition revenue to make your operating budget
work.
Yeah, I wish I had a reallywonderful, succinct answer that
pointed to our distinction.
In truth, that's a struggleeach and every day at a place
like this.
It also now come back tomessaging and how we attract
(08:09):
Tuition's an interesting elementin the puzzle.
(08:41):
Our stated tuition is high.
It's in the ballpark for smallprivate institutions but
compared to a beyond what thelist price may be on the website
, they quickly understand thatsmall colleges like ours provide
a lot of financial support tomake it possible.
There was every year.
(09:16):
There are a few smallinstitutions like ours that
attempt to break out of thetuition model that has been so
broadly embraced and instead ofoffering a very high tuition and
very high aid to make itfinancially feasible, they try
and bring both down.
It's an interesting phenomenon.
There aren't many exampleswhere that has been successful.
First of all, it requires quitean investment to even go down
(09:36):
that path, because the messagingthat you need to provide both
prospective and current membersof the community to help them
understand what that change intuition and aid means is a
significant investment.
But we also have a phenomenonthat back in ancient days, when
(10:00):
I was in business school wascoined the JCPenney effect.
And long before you came along,mike JCPenney decided hey,
we're getting out of the salesbusiness, we're going to lower
our prices and never have sales.
And what happened?
Their revenue plummeted becausewe all like a deal.
(10:20):
We all like a deal, and so what?
A and B?
We tend to attach value toprice, so people saw JCPenney's
prices as low.
They assumed the quality waslow and they didn't have the
opportunity for a sale.
There's some of that that playswith higher ed.
(10:41):
People recognize small schoolswith high tuitions as schools
that must do something well todeserve that.
And I'll say yes, absolutely inthe case of Menlo College.
But it's also the case that weprovide a great deal of aid,
much of which is funded by ourdonor community, to make it
(11:03):
possible for students to beeducated here at Menlo College.
And while it'd be intriguing tothink about an approach that
would bring our tuition way downour aid way down what's unclear
is we know now we lose somestudents, prospective students,
(11:26):
who may come to our website, seeour tuition and just not go
beyond that, because they don'tunderstand the extent to which
aid can be available to them.
We also might lose students inthis new scenario where our
tuition is way down, becausethey would look at us and say
(11:47):
they can't be that good a schoolif their tuition is half of
fill-in-the-blank other schoolthat they may be taking into
account.
But it is also the case thatour cost base is very high.
Even if we existed in themiddle of nowhere in this
(12:09):
country, in a rural setting,costs for education are high
here, in addition to the I'lljust say it in a positive sense
the vibrancy of the SiliconValley economy.
Wages are high, cost of livingis high and so we bear that
(12:31):
additional expense as well.
The structure and support thatwe provide, the enhanced support
that we provide every studentthat I referred to earlier in
response to your first question,that comes with a cost right.
We dedicate a number of peopleon this campus for that purpose,
to ensure that we don't losetrack of each student's progress
(12:55):
but also each student'schallenges, and then figure out
how we devise support to addressthe challenges they may face.
To address the challenges theymay face.
But the other aspect of yourquestion, the engagement of the
donor community in keeping thatbalance.
Well, first of all, it's farmore than tuition.
(13:17):
We drive a significant amount ofstudent revenue by virtue of
providing housing to ourstudents on campus, and that's
an important piece of it.
We also monetize other aspectsof our business enterprise that
may seem not directly related toour core mission, which is this
broad category that we callcamps and conferences.
(13:39):
It's basically rental activity.
How do we, particularly in thesummer, when our facilities are
underused, how do we monetizethat?
By engaging members of thecommunity, broadly defined,
because we get people from allover the world to come here to
take advantage of our locationin the heart of Silicon Valley,
(14:00):
sometimes for educationalpurposes that we play a role in
providing, and sometimes we'rejust a landlord and it's a
program that a third party ishosting.
Very often it's a youth sportscamp, which we pursue both for
(14:20):
the revenue generation but alsobecause it's a way of brand
exposure and potentiallyidentifying talent we may want
to recruit at some point in time.
But if we didn't have and wetalked about this during our
first conversation if we didn'thave engaged donors who believed
in our mission, who believedthat it's incredibly important
(14:44):
to provide the kind of hands-onsupport to our students and
providing our students withaccess to Silicon Valley, if we
didn't have those donors, we'dbe closing shop, but we're
fortunate that we've been ableto develop both some key alumni
(15:09):
who have the wherewithal toprovide support, whose own
experience was meaningful andwho are the people who share
with me the expression I neverget tired of hearing, which is
Menlo changed my life, which Ido hear frequently.
But as well, we've beenextraordinarily fortunate in
(15:30):
attracting other donors,particularly from the Bay Area,
who have no connection to MenloCollege but who very much
believe in what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I love that answer.
I mean there's so many aspectsthere that I appreciate and
contextualize, I think, thecomplexity of the space you know
you mentioned really sort ofdiverse over the array of key
revenue, so many different ways.
You're actually sort of gettingto sort of supplement those
costs and augment the personalstudent experience, augment the.
(16:10):
The personal student experienceum.
The sticker price example is isa really powerful one.
Um.
There's this study and I mightbutcher a few of the, the
details, but bear with me arounduh wine um, where they actually
sort of did a blind taste.
That's what they gave uhsomebody the same sort of bottle
of wine um, but at differentprice points, and they had the
them rate, the one that theyliked best and, not surprisingly
, you know, the one that was themost expensive, right, but it
(16:34):
does get to like just thelayered nature of you know
trying to sort of you knowprovide a service that has all
the sort of accoutrements andvalue but has some cost to it.
Maybe a follow-up to that, likeif you're projecting five, 10
years out, like if you couldoptimize, like, the number of
(16:58):
students you have compared tonow versus sort of overhead
costs, right, like.
Is there an optimum there right?
Like, for instance, if youcould shift like your, if you
could, you know, somehow getless people on campus, or like
(17:18):
is it?
Is it scaling the number ofstudents?
Is it sort of like reducingoverhead over a longer period of
time?
Like, what's that optimumbalance look like from a dollars
in, dollars out perspective?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah.
So I can't translate it tospecific dollars, but the big
picture answer is yes and yes,just to keep our doors open, our
lights on, is a significantpart of our fixed expense base.
The more people we have tospread it across, the more
(17:50):
sustainable a financial model wehave.
So, for us, as we move forward,as we look out over five years,
our challenge is figuring outhow to be smarter about our
delivery, how to take advantageof new technologies, how to
selectively outsource, all witha view towards either
(18:11):
maintaining or enhancing theextent to which we provide
support, not just to ourstudents even though that's our
core mission but also ourfaculty and staff.
But at the same time, there isan opportunity for I'll call it
organic growth.
I don't see us growing by leapsand bounds and I don't think I
(18:32):
would want to Coming back to ourfirst exchange.
Our size is one of our assetsand I want to be careful about
the growth that we don't lose,that we don't lose the
opportunity to differentiateourselves in the market.
But at our high point, prior tothe pandemic, we were just
(18:55):
under 900 students and thatseemed to be a number that we
could continue to support in theway that, I think, is our
expression of real value add,and my guess is that could be
pushed somewhat more.
So what's the right number?
Is it 1,000?
(19:15):
Is it 1,100?
I don't know, but it'ssomewhere north of 900, I
believe.
And as we've penciled out thefinances, even without achieving
the efficiencies that I said,are nonetheless essential.
The financial health and thussustainability of the college is
(19:37):
much stronger when we start toget north of 900 in the number
of students, students.
The problem with looking outnone of us owns a clear crystal
ball right.
They're all cracked and cloudy.
That's what all of us arestruggling with, and there will
(19:58):
be new demands, new services,perhaps new government reporting
see what's happening with thegovernment.
That's a hot topic at themoment.
That may, in a sense, counterevery efficiency, every new
(20:22):
technology opportunity that weembrace in order to reduce our
overhead costs, but you know,the hope is that we can continue
to navigate those assuccessfully as we have, frankly
, for almost a hundred years now.
So you know that, that, no,knowing that there are almost a
(20:43):
hundred years that we'vetraveled and traveled
successfully, and I think, Ithink have improved, if not year
to year, surely at this pointin time, compared to five years
ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
This is a much stronger andvibrant institution than it was
when I first encountered and I'mnot patting myself on the back
(21:04):
that's a community effort and Iexpect that that that trend will
will continue.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, no, that's, that's really, that's really
encouraging.
And I think also you knowhyper-realistic, just given the
space of you know just howcomplex and how many moving
pieces there, everything.
What are some operationalenhancements that you're you
know, that you've you've putinto motion or that you're
excited to sort of do Becauseit's such a tricky path?
(21:35):
I think everybody's trying tofigure out right, it is a sort
of somewhat of a like you haveto invest strategically to
attract the right kinds ofstudents and retain the right
kinds of students and all thosepieces you have all these sort
of fixed costs that are sort ofgoing in.
You already sort of pointed tosome of the unique challenges
that happen in Silicon Valleythere, but what are operational
(21:57):
strategies for upskilling team,for doing these more efficiently
, for shared data, how do youthink about some of those pieces
?
As it sort of connects tomaking Menlo a sort of a more
efficient but also like just abetter run place, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So you know there are a whole slew of what I'll label
as tinkering that goes onconstantly, right?
Not any one of which amounts tohuge efficiencies, but
(22:34):
collectively moved thisinstitution.
If I were to pick out three ofthe most significant efforts we
have, one of them is tocontinually examine the
opportunities for selectiveoutsourcing, and we have moved
into that space.
To take a brief aside, I triedto explore ways in which we
(22:58):
could collaborate with otherinstitutions in the area to
share core services, and thatjust proved so complicated, so
complicated, and the resistanceto change is so strong that I
switched direction and lookedinstead to the selective
outsourcing.
I don't think there are a lotof opportunities for that, but
(23:22):
specifically with a lot of whatgenerally gets referred to as
backroom functions, whether it'sIT or HR, those are the prime
examples, possibly some of ourbusiness office functions, those
to move those off campus.
That does not affect thesupport we provide students.
In some ways it could enhancethem, but the most important
(23:46):
piece is that it allows us torealize some cost savings and to
take advantage of scale, whichotherwise we don't have.
Right, and we pursued that inno small part because of the
(24:21):
demands for IT securityknowledge that just kept
skyrocketing as the world of ITbecame more and more complex and
we realized we couldn't pretendto hold on to that knowledge
here or build that knowledgehere, that knowledge here and
build that knowledge here.
That's where our size worksagainst us, but that's where
outsourcing becomes anopportunity.
Another area that I think ishelping us achieve efficiencies,
even though up front it's hardto see where the savings are,
(24:43):
but it is in standardizing theways in which we collect data
across this institution andshare data, because if you
aren't providing the means tounderstand the ways in which we
(25:04):
are being successful and theways we're not being as
successful as we need to be, andallowing everybody to speak the
same language, have the samereference, then we're missing
out, and that's where ourinternal institutional research
function becomes so importantand providing a dashboard for
(25:26):
everyone to share access tocommon data is so important.
The third piece is a journey andperhaps not a typical response
for schools.
Menlo College has a significantinvestment in athletics.
(25:50):
More than half of our studentsare varsity athletes and it's
such an important part of theMenlo journey for
student-athletes andnon-student-athletes alike, and
it's a vibrant aspect of ourschool and enormously successful
.
I'm an enormous fan andsupporter of our athletics
(26:13):
program.
We are challenged, though, withthe expense of maintaining it,
and one of the expenses we are,I'll just say, eager I was going
to say desperate are, I'll justsay eager, I was going to say
desperate, but eager to controlis travel.
(26:36):
We're in a conference that isspread throughout Northern
California great, but alsoSouthern California and Hawaii,
and we just and we made a move.
We had been part of NAIA, wewent to NCAA, but we in no small
part we made that move becausethere were so few NAIA schools
to compete against here inNorthern California, so our
travel obligation was so great.
So there were a number of otherreasons that prompted us to
(27:00):
move to NCAA, but travel was apiece of that.
We haven't, though, was a pieceof that.
We haven't, though, as aconference, found ways to
leverage the geographicdistribution of our schools to
the full advantage, and I'mhopeful that our conference will
(27:22):
move further to have more whatI refer to as pod scheduling, so
that more and more of ourathletic competition is taking
place here in NorthernCalifornia, and less and less
travel, and travel has two bigexpenses associated One is the
direct cost of travel and theother is the indirect cost of
students being away from class,and we bear both of those costs
(27:49):
now to an extent that I hope wecan minimize going forward.
It's intriguing to me.
We're now part of NCAA D2 andmost California state campuses
are also D2.
And they are their ownconference and they're spread
(28:10):
throughout California, whichmeans San Francisco State is
going down to Cal Long Beach tocompete.
But if we just blew this all upand started over again, I don't
think anybody in their rightmind would say, oh, it's so
(28:32):
important for Cal State SanFrancisco to have a conference
mate down in Southern California, as opposed to saying, well,
wait a minute, we have all theseschools that are all D2 in
Northern California.
That should be one conferencewhich would significantly reduce
(28:53):
the travel obligation for allof us.
But that's a huge leap.
It's actually a conversation Itried to have with a few of the
Cal State presidents, one ofwhom recently chose instead to
close her athletics program.
Now she's at Sonoma State.
(29:13):
They just announced yesterdaythat they were closing all
athletics and their challengewas more than just their travel
costs.
Right, I get it Significantfinancial savings that had to be
achieved and I don't envy theirsituation at all.
But I do worry that by cuttingsuch a core program, core for
(29:40):
the student experience and theadditional development and
education that can come fromengagement in athletics and
that's no longer part of sonomastate's student experience and
and I think I think in timethey'll come to regret that that
decision there is somethingabout I mean, the cuts are such
(30:02):
a, I think, unfortunate butnecessary part of the ecosystem
we're in, but there is thissaying for a lot of times that I
think is true, which is youcan't really cut your way to
prosperity right and um.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
so you know more often than not that I've seen
that sort of just be, uh, youknow, a leading indicator to um
eventual collapse, which isreally unfortunate.
Hopefully that's not the casefor them, but it's a really
tricky space.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
There are a lot of stops along the way to collapse
right.
At any point in their stop theycould find equilibrium and
maybe that's it, A level thatjust again offers a less rich
and robust student experience,and I hope they aren't going
further than that.
I think the Cal State system isa terrific one and such an
(30:58):
important resource forCalifornia residents, so I'd
hate to see that diminished inany way.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Completely, Completely diminished in any way
, Completely, completely.
And coming back to the on theoutsourcing piece, I really like
what you said around the sortof outsourcing of IT, HR, sort
of business office functions.
To me that makes complete sense, Doesn't compromise your core
mission, has some operationalefficiencies that come with it.
You also sort of mentioned thedata collection piece of that.
(31:29):
Is this the sort of support andaugment your existing IR office
Like?
Is it looking at ways to sortof better share data?
Is it sort of like looking atlike setting up data lakes and
sort of better sort ofcollaborative automation between
systems, or what's that kind oflook like for you all?
Or what's that kind of looklike for you all?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, surely your reference data lakes.
Yes, it's also looking to seehow many systems we have and the
cost, both in terms ofinefficiencies as well as
dollars, to maintain so manydifferent systems, and the
(32:13):
challenge of ensuring dataintegrity when it's going from
system to system is asignificant one.
And it's tough because we bothwant to take advantage of new
(32:33):
technologies, new applications,new developments that may be
standalone, but when you havethese islands of data,
ultimately it hurts theinstitution and hurts the, in
the sense that it's harder tomanage when you don't have the,
the consistent way to measureyour, your, your progress, um
(33:04):
and uh.
You know that's that's tough.
Uh, uh, that's where I I am.
You know, there's so manyaspects of ai that I look at
with some trepidation, and thenthere are so many aspects of AI
that I look at with sometrepidation, and then there are
so many aspects I look at withgreat hope and in terms of
improving our IT and our datainfrastructure.
That's pure hope with respectto AI, and that's where I hope
(33:25):
to be able to embrace thattechnology as it continues to
mature.
And I think as well there maybe a whole other spectrum of
opportunities with respect to AI, that like for tutoring and for
students who have special needsand accommodating those special
(33:56):
needs.
I'm hardly the first to suggestthat AI has potential in both
those areas.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
No, I completely agree and I do think there was
some interesting.
You know we haven't seen it yet, but, to your point, what's
sort of an integrative of datasystems look like?
I think a lot of people outsideof the space don't necessarily
understand just how complicatedit is to sync your systems.
(34:26):
As simple as a valueproposition as that sounds Right
is to sync your systems?
As simple as a valueproposition as that sounds, um,
right, like they're specificallybuilt to sort of like be data
warehouses themselves, um, andconnecting the apis between two
different tools.
Um, I think there's some thatlike it, you know, say it's a
good example, it's built to dothat.
Um, so many are not all right.
(34:48):
And and you know, when you layerin on top of like the human
cost of like retrainingeverybody in a new system, or
like how layered the contractsget with any of them and they're
locked into a certain amount ofyears, um, yeah, you know it's
like it's.
It's really tricky to like totake these things and just like,
even with tools like AI areabsolutely incredible.
(35:11):
But what we're seeing with AIright now is like a lot of them
don't have easy functionalitywith these old systems, to just
sort of like plug and play andmake them magically connect
right.
So it's like it becomes reallysort of tricky to be like okay,
where do we, what data flows dowe want?
Where do we want things to go?
Who do we want to have accessto?
As simple as that all sounds,when you've got 40 different
(35:34):
systems on a small campus, it'svery complex, very fast yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
I've been around the block a whole number of times
and have talked to a number offolks who are pitching IT
solutions so many of them soundso fabulous but I have never,
ever, ever, encountered anybodywho's representing a company of
any size who says honestly, theimplementation will be tough.
(36:04):
They all say, oh, turnkey, noproblem, you're going to be up
and running in a week.
It's just not.
That's not the reality of wherewe are, even here, even now, in
2025.
It's far better in 2025 than itwas in 2015, but it's still an
(36:25):
enormous challenge and for some,some systems, one that can't,
uh, practically be overcome, sothey become standalone systems,
which is is just far from idealyeah, well, and like good
technology, like, in my opinion,it looks at the human processes
(36:46):
first, that sort of underpinhow the functionality of it
works, right, like you're, youwant it to sort of blend with
how.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
First that sort of underpin how the functionality
of it works, right, like you're,you want it to sort of blend
with how people are sort of likedoing the existing work, um,
and how they're thinking on it,and very, very few systems that
you're going to sort of onboardat an enterprise level are
actually going to do that right.
So it's like there's a lot ofretraining, a lot of sort of
other pieces that sort of gowith that, which I think make it
super, super complicated.
(37:10):
Which kind of brings me toanother question.
You had some really goodinsights before on competitive
differentiators for staff andhow you were leveraging things
like housing and benefits thatyou could sort of offer, sort of
being uniquely positioned inthe Valley for existing staff.
Can you talk a little bit moreon, like, how you think about
(37:35):
talent retention, upskilling andsome of those kind of pieces,
and how you're able to sort oflike leverage the ecosystem you
have around you to that end?
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Sure, you know.
I think that's another way inwhich size plays to our
advantage for most of the peoplewe're hiring, whatever your
role here, whether you're in theclassroom, whether you're in
the payroll office, whetheryou're a member of the
(38:06):
facilities, you're engaging withstudents on a campus like this.
So the reminder of why we'rehere, why we're doing what we're
doing, is constant and for theright candidate that's an
incredible bonus, in a sense alure, because if we're
(38:29):
recruiting someone for, let'ssay since I mentioned it payroll
office and we're looking atsomebody at a much larger
institution, they won't haveengaged with students there
typically, whereas here we alldo.
We all do very directly, andwhether it's just because we all
(38:51):
eat lunch together and there'sonly one facility on campus that
serves lunch, or just becauseof the way in which our students
very quickly come to expectthat they will have access to
faculty and staff alike and willvery often look to the person
(39:13):
who may not be typically the oneone would expect a student
would look to as a mentor, as aguide or just somebody to help
them think through whateverpersonal issue they may be
grappling with.
So that's a cleardifferentiator.
I think the other aspect interms of recruiting is to
(39:38):
basically apply the same.
I don't want to use this wordand then immediately regret it.
The way in which I sell or pitchMenlo to donors and talk about
the extent to which we open ourdoors so broadly and to the
extent to which we're educatingstudents whose forebears did not
(40:00):
have access to higher education, in large part reflected in
both the first generationstudents that we serve, as well
as our dual status as both aHispanic Serving Institution and
as an Anapisi ServingInstitution Asian American and
Native American, pacificIslander Serving Institution
(40:21):
those speak to the extent towhich we have successfully
opened our doors and broadenedour reach to bring together a
truly distinctive, if notabsolute unique student
population that represent justevery walk of life.
We have a significant number ofinternational students.
(40:41):
We have 48 countriesrepresented on our small campus,
20 states in the US representedon our small campus represented
on our small campus, 20 statesin the US represented on our
small campus and, again, thesedual minority-serving
institutions plus First Gen.
You put that all together andwe're all encountering people
who don't represent typicallythe people we've encountered in
(41:05):
our lives, because we all livein social silos or most of us
live in social silos, and Ifirmly believe that all of us
become richer when we'renavigating sounds like it's more
of a challenge, but when wehave the opportunity to engage
(41:27):
with people whose backgroundsare so different from ours and I
started down this path inresponse to your question about
how do we recruit staff Well, wesell them on that, that.
That's an opportunity for theirlives to become richer, and when
I'm engaged in that recruitment, I can speak to it from
personal experience.
It from personal experience.
(41:54):
I have been at Menlo for morethan 12 years and feel
incredibly enriched by theopportunity I've had to engage
with people from so manydifferent walks of life and
understand their perspectives alittle bit more, and to also
appreciate the opportunitiesthat we're providing by virtue
of being an institution thatagain opens its doors broadly
(42:16):
and yet provides such strongsupport to enable success.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, I love that answer and just I think it
speaks to the sort of richnessand diversity and all the
different sort of unique thingsthat you get about sort of
working in that kind ofenvironment and how sort of
uniquely and interconnected andrich it is for everybody.
That's there, not just students, but you know, you as an
administrator.
(42:43):
There's a dual value.
That's that's happening.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, that's okay.
Oh sorry, yeah sorry, I'veheard it from parents.
Parents have said to me.
Every year there's at least onewho said I didn't anticipate
this coming in, but one of theways in which my child has grown
(43:07):
has been because they are,whether it's their roommate,
their classmates, theirteammates.
They are engaging with peoplewho are helping them think
differently than they used tothink, and that's you know that,
as I say, that allows us togrow, no matter our age.
(43:29):
Allows us to grow asindividuals.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah, and that's kind of what college is supposed to
do, right, and you, I think, youcan easily discount that.
You can get that benefit as anadult, which I think is a great
point.
Connecting back to something wereally sort of spoke on earlier
in the conversation, maybe thiswould be a fun place to wrap
With all the sort of politicalor you know sort of potential
(43:55):
sort of changes that are sort ofcoming.
Second, third order effects ofyou know sort of Trump
administration.
If you had to give like a quickSWOT analysis on like what you
see for Menlo, where's yourbrain go Like, what's the good,
the bad and the ugly of you knowtransition, because I do see
some sort of ambivalence andjust sort of different pieces in
(44:18):
the water here for folks.
But I'm curious, and what'syour read on that?
Speaker 2 (44:24):
And just to be sure, your question is, as I
anticipate, what might be comingfrom Washington, what's our
position and where's theopportunity and where's the
threat?
Yeah exactly, yeah, okay, wehave benefited from the extent
(44:46):
to which, increasingly, thefederal government has
recognized the unique needs ofminority-serving institutions
and has provided funding forthem, and we have been
successful in obtaining fundsboth from the Department of
Education and the NSF inparticular National Science
Foundation in particular thatare targeted for those
(45:06):
institutions in our country thatsupport minority student
populations and, to the extentthat those disappear, that's not
just a significant portion ofour revenue that goes away, but
they're funding our ability toprovide enhanced services and
(45:26):
that will go away as well.
Our students, the majority ofour students, are economically
challenged and a lot of themqualify for Pell Grant, support
for subsidized federal loans.
To the extent to which thoseprograms are pared back or
(45:47):
eliminated, that will have ahuge effect on our students and
thus our school.
And I'm obviously watching thatwith a lot of international
students.
And during the first Trumpadministration we saw
(46:17):
international student accessimpaired, whether it was simply
because the embassy staff intheir home country was reduced
or because their home countrywas no longer welcomed as a
source for students studyinghere.
(46:38):
There are also internationalstudents who have looked at the
political landscape I'm nowgoing back eight years ago who
looked at the politicallandscape and said I think I'm
going to go to canada oraustralia or or stay in their
home country, and I'm concernedthat we'll see some or all of
the above as we move forward andto the extent to which we might
(47:02):
recruit an internationalstudent and and that
international students unable toobtain their visa to study in
the United States for whatevercombination of reasons that
hurts us.
At the same time, the newadministration is committed to
looking at what they label andmany of us would also as the
(47:28):
incredible bureaucracy that hasdeveloped over time Federal
requirements, whether it'sreporting requirements or
adherence to new guidelines.
They're always additive, and wehave a significantly greater
(47:48):
compliance obligation today thanwe did when I first joined
Menlo 12 years ago, but all theobligations that we had 12 years
ago are still there, and so, tothe extent to which there may
be paring down of thebureaucracy, simplifying the
rules and reporting Hallelujah,almost all of them individually
(48:14):
well-intentioned I understandwhat brought about the
requirement, but collectivelyit's a burden, and it's a burden
that we all fall bear, and I'mnot talking about just the
things that we fit in.
I'm talking about the thingsthat collectively obligate us to
hire more staff, and so it's afinancial burden as well, and
(48:37):
some of them.
It's hard for me to see in 2025what the value add is to
anybody, and so if some of theobligations disappear, terrific,
but it's.
You know, it's like everycitizen of this country who's
(48:58):
attuned to what's happening inWashington we're all staring at
it, wondering what's coming next, and we're no different.
The higher education becamesomething of a punching bag in
recent months and unfortunately,I fear that that might be
(49:21):
increasing.
And yet we did see a rise innew student enrollment across
the country, predominantly incommunity colleges, which I
think there's something in therethat we should all be again
staring at and trying to figureout what the long-term
ramifications are, because ofthe poor track record that
(49:44):
community colleges that we have,seeing students who start with
community college ultimatelyobtain a college degree.
But we'll see how it all playsout and continue to duck and
weave and see where there areopportunities to enhance the
college based on whatever comesout of Washington.
(50:05):
But it's, yeah, it's as BettyDavis would say, it's a fasten
your seatbelt time.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, I think that's a very well balanced and
thoughtful answer, which which Iappreciate.
Stephen, thank you for yourtime.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
This has been this has been incredible, mike it's
always great to talk to you,rehearse my last name if we ever
talk again.
And if we talk again, let'scompare notes about your most
recent travels and taste in thewine industry, because it's a
fun hobby for me.
Yeah, me too.
(50:42):
Thank you again.
Okay.
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