Episode 18: Who's Lila

For this week, Jordan chose Who's Lila, a peculiar game about a peculiar guy with a peculiar face.

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
Welcome back friends, to the Adventure Starts Here podcast.
This week we discussed Who's Lila?
A rather unique game where you play a troubled person who can't
control their facial expressions.
Our discussion centers around that mechanic, some of the
deeper lore, and whether or not horror games should be fun.
Naturally, be mindful of spoilers throughout for Who's

(00:35):
Lila, as well as spoilers for Near Doki Doki Literature Club
as well as Undertale spoilers throughout.
With that out of the way, enjoy the episode.
What's everyone's favorite serial killer?
I can start if you guys don't have one to start.
With Chris Dorner. That was so fast.

(00:56):
That was so fast. I mean, he gave us the prompted
advance, so I mean. That is true, but you RIP that
one off quick so you're going tohave to elaborate.
All right, so I've told this story before.
That's like everyone here, but like at least a couple of you
guys. But like back when I first moved
to Indiana, I was like on Craigslist just looking for like

(01:18):
any kind of part time job. So I found I got an interview at
some place in like that. What's that like rich bougie
place? The job interview was like at at
this place, it was like this like building where like a bunch
of different companies like shared the same buildings.
Like each company had like theirown floor or maybe like just
like their own room. So I went in there and the guy

(01:41):
giving me the interview was likethe owner of the company and he
looked exactly like Chris Dorner.
And the reason why I knew he looked like Chris Dorner is
because literally the week before was when Chris Dorner
went and killed all those, killed all those cops.
He looked exactly like him. He had a military background.
I'm not saying that he's Chris Dorner, but like I couldn't

(02:01):
help. What I'm saying is you know how
like some people say like Epstein is alive and well in
Israel. Well, Chris Dorner may be alive
and well in Fishers IN. Did you?
What? Did you take the job?
No, I no, I don't think, no, I didn't get the job at all.

(02:25):
And if I did, like it was sort of telemarketing.
So if I did get that job throughsome miracle, I would have been
fired within a week. Like guaranteed.
Because like, talking to strangers is not my is not on my
school school set. Yeah, that been doing
telemarketing does not sound like a recipe for success to me.

(02:47):
No, absolutely not, you guys. Yeah, you guys feel free to give
your favorite serial killers. My favorite serial killer here.
Listen, OK, I'm gonna cheat. He's not technically a serial
killer, but him up, If you look him up, I feel like he's got

(03:08):
enough going on and has committed enough crimes to enter
the pantheon. And I'm gonna say Billy
Milligan. Thomas, Do you know who Billy
Milligan is? It's a very familiar name.
I have no idea who the fuck thatis, I'm sorry.
Billy Milligan, he was one of oror if not the source inspiration

(03:30):
for the movie Split. This is a man with dissociative
identity disorder like Split personality disorder.
Do you guys want to guess how many personalities this guy had?
OK. I remember, I remember this guy,
not it. Wasn't it like wasn't it like in
the high 20s? Or am I thinking of split like
the number 27 is? In my head it's 24.

(03:52):
Oh, that's close. Which is fucking crazy.
Yeah, I I read the book The ManyMinds of Billy Milligan, and it
was fucking fascinating. Like the shit that the human
body can do when you just have these like, off wire impulses
telling you to do shit that you can't do.
Like this dude literally was in prison, tore the toilet off of

(04:13):
the wall and broke the bars withit to get out of prison.
It was or like a hell. What year was?
This. I don't know, like 70s or 80s
maybe. Everybody was breaking out of
that shit. The time when you could do
anything, when the world was your oyster. 10 years and then

(04:37):
you're fucking out of prison. Yeah, In 1975, he was imprisoned
at the Lebanon Correctional Institute.
How about you guys? Thomas George, I hate this
question because like, how do you define what a favorite
serial killer is? Like no matter what I say, I'm
gonna. Lose.

(04:58):
Well for what it's worth, according to AI overview, Chris
Dorner is not a serial killer cuz he didn't kill enough
people. That's bullshit, that's
bullshit. That guy killed multiple cops
and like a wife and children or some shit.
I mean, I agree, but you got to take it up with Google.
I don't think a mass murderer isa serial killer.

(05:18):
He wasn't like, he wasn't like amass shooter.
He was like on the run from the LAPD for a long time and he
killed multiple cops and at least one wife and maybe a he
didn't kill kids, did he? What a fuck up.
But I don't think. So.
I know he killed a wife for sure.
I think he's just a murderer. I don't think he's a serial
killer unless he was like killing people and like kissing

(05:40):
him with some like blue lipstick, then he'd be the blue
lipstick killer, you know? What?
What does that mean? That's why you.
That's how they become a serial killer, yeah.
He killed four people. How do you define where a serial
killer? Is we just said it, if you you
gotta wear lipstick for all of them and then kiss them and then
they would call them. The blue lipstick.
Not ironically, that would be a serial.

(06:01):
Killer. So he needs a calling card is
what you're saying? Basically, that's what makes it
a serialized kill. Yeah, you have a signature.
Oh I I I couldn't even name a serial killer then.
Probably, except like the famousones.
Like the really famous ones? All right, I think Chris Dorner,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna call bullshit on anyone he says Chris

(06:21):
Dorner is not a serial killer, even though, like, I know that
all of his, like, murders were within a short time span, which
is probably why he doesn't fall into the textbook definition.
But that motherfucker killed four people.
Like, that's, that's enough for me.
I've stalled for time enough. I'm going to name someone that
hopefully you guys just aren't familiar with and don't Google

(06:43):
it, but I've always thought thatlike the most fucked up serial
killer story that I'm familiar with at least is the Toy Box
killer. If you don't know who that is,
you probably want to keep it that way.
It's really not pleasant, but I guess when I was thinking about
favorite, my mind went to who's the most like fucked up one I

(07:06):
can think of and that's where mybrain went.
So I'm not going to elaborate just to do you all the favor.
If you know who that is, good for you.
But I feel like you guys are furiously typing into Google
right now and I'm sorry. No, I did not.
Actually I I took your advice. I I think I looked it up a while

(07:26):
back and it was not pleasant, soI'm not looking it up again.
Yeah, he's not a good dude. You know, I would, I would say
he firmly lies in the camp of kind of a piece of shit.
How about you, Jordan? I think it's either the Acai
bowl or the blueberry Eggo waffle.

(07:47):
Go ahead and pick one of those and just just give your
reasoning. Wait, why?
Why acai? What'd it do to?
You it's kind of like it's basically just serial 2 point O
basically like take out the milkand ice cream.
This fucking guy. I picked the blueberry Eggo
waffle just for convenience though.
I saw you both kind of like expensive and you're never
making that shit yourself. Eggos are not serial.

(08:11):
What are you're fucking up? It's a serial killer as in it
like, you know how there's like Halo killers like.
Call of Duty. OK, sure.
Yeah, like the killer app. Like egg.
Eggos are the killer app. Bacon and Eggs is my favorite
serial killer. There you go.
Very true. Egg goes out to breakfast.
What? Final Fantasy 7 was the

(08:33):
PlayStation one? So the world of Who's Lila,
which is the game we played thisweek.
There are the I. I have no idea the
pronunciations of any of these so you guys can correct me if
I'm wrong. But the new Sphere dwellers
which are also called UIW Dash AMS, which I'm going to call

(08:54):
UEMS instead of dwellers becausecalling it an UEM is funny to
me, Are these like, I'm not going to go into an in depth
explanation of what they are, but basically memes make them.
They are powered by the belief in memetics.
So if you guys were to use a meme to create an OEM, what meme
would you use and what kind of God would it create?

(09:15):
This is such a hard question. I don't know.
So the problem is like I, I could come up with the meme very
easily, but like I don't I I getlost in the latter part where
like like coming up with a God, like why does it have to create
a God? Did maybe.
Did I miss a part of the story of Who's Lila?

(09:36):
I mean, the, the we Ms. are likethey, I, they're not exactly
gods, but they're like pretty fucking close to.
Did you actually bother to read the stuff that you had to go to
the website? I mean, that PDF, it was really
long. I, I skimmed over it and then I
went back to it after I read a guide and learned that there was
like a password in there. But I guess I didn't really like

(09:58):
internalize it, no. Yeah, unfortunately that's where
a lot of this prompt is cribbed from, so.
I just remember seeing the word we AM and that's about it.
And that is like, it was like about memes.
And that's basically like an imaginary friend.
You don't need to go in depth with yeah, I guess it doesn't
necessarily need to be a God. Like it could be a what?

(10:18):
What? What was the other word for him?
Tupacs. Tupacs.
Tupacs. Yeah, like it could be like, it
could be a Tupac. You don't have to like, give me
a fucking three page explanationof it.
But you know, what would the meme be?
Oh boy. Because it'd probably be Dark
Side Phil and then we'd all end up in like a hell.
Truman Show. The fucking Phil Show.

(10:43):
Exactly the Burnell show. For maybe Rick Roll and then
every time you close the browsertab when you get Rick Rolled, it
feeds this giant Sonic the Hedgehog spin in style Rick
Astley that goes towards New York City.
Why New York City? That's what I'm wondering.
Seems like an important place. Not fair enough.

(11:07):
That's good stuff, Thomas. I think I would choose the you
wouldn't download a car meme because I would make it like a
malevolent God. That would actually allow me to
download like cars. And I could like torrent parking
passes and stuff, You know what I mean?

(11:27):
Just like the ultimate, the ultimate piracy God, that just
lets me download like a fucking what's that thing in Star Trek?
The fucking the physical builderof bullshit through torrenting
shit. So your your we am God is just
it. It allows you to pirate easier.

(11:47):
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it's it's like the pre
real AMC movie theater PSA saying I wouldn't download a
car, but I absolutely would. So I would be like the
Antichrist or something. I think for me.
And here's here's where I think maybe Thomas and probably Ben

(12:08):
have fucked up a little bit. These don't have to be like,
these don't have to be Internet memes.
These can be like memes that we know.
So I'm going to use this opportunity to describe the
image that we took of Chris agesago so that Ben can include it
in the video in which Chris posed with the sunflower in a

(12:31):
very. Oh, it's my favorite picture I
created. Yeah, we'll just say a, We'll
just say a provocative manner. It's literally the avatar for
Tommy Body. And it's also been my Steam
avatar for several years. And also the final boss of the
schmuck you made that you presented at Taffers.

(12:51):
Yeah, Arcade bar. And what kind of God would it
be? I don't know, but it would
probably be a dog because spelling it would be a sexy dog
and that joke will not make sense for anyone, but Oh well.
Anyway, how to actually talk about who's Lila, which is the

(13:13):
game we played this week. Do you guys think that William
is a serial killer? Like I kind of posed that first
question 'cause that was like the vibe that I got when I
started up the game. But like the the game goes quite
a bit farther than that. So where are your guys's vibes
on that exact literally within Like I opened, I opened the game

(13:34):
and I just kind of like putzed around for like 10 minutes
before I went to bed just to like get gauge the vibe and
shit. And as soon as I looked at that
face, I was like, that motherfucker's Ted Bundy.
Like I thought that it was like very obviously supposed to be
Ted Bundy. And as soon as like the first
line of dialogue comes up or it's like I'm not very good at
making faces. I was just like, yeah, this

(13:56):
guy's a fucking serial killer. Like I don't I can put 2 + 2
together here. Ted Bundy plus a motionless
robot who has to have me make faces for him.
Serial killer. But what if that what if the,
you know, torso that he had in atrash can in his kitchen was the
only one he had. He didn't serialize it, it was

(14:16):
just a one off event. What if what if it was a chicken
torso? Oh true, they never actually say
do that. Yeah, they do.
Yeah, they see who it is. Fine.
It's. The dumpster on.
Well, they the hey, all that they said was they found Tanya's
torso. That your chicken could have
been named Tanya. Are you saying they like

(14:36):
gaslighted him in that ending? Where were they arrest him?
Yeah, throw it out of chicken. I mean, I mean, they gaslighted
the entire Lawrence Society or whatever it's called, the
fraternity. So very true.
Good cop, bad cop, chicken cop. That's all I'm saying.
Chicken cop Was that? Was that Detective you?
Was Detective you the chicken cock?

(14:59):
Oh fuck. Every sick.
A whole new narrative angle justarose.
Well, in any case, enough memes.Let's talk about the game, you
losers. What was everyone's first
ending? How did you feel about it?
Who has the strongest reaction? Does the does getting the close

(15:19):
your eyes Empress thing? Was that an ending?
It gave you a card, right? It's Wheel of Fortune.
OK, yeah, that was the first onethat I got.
It's 2. The one where you die is death,
but the one where you don't? Yeah, yeah, No, I actually
closed my eyes because I can follow simple directions.
So I did what the game told me to do.
That was my first ending and my reaction was to immediately go

(15:43):
into the options and turn the volume down.
That's the first thing you got was going through the boiler
room. Yeah, I mean, that was like the
weirdest. That was like the weirdest thing
I could interact with. And the guy was like follow the
music. So I just followed the music.
Yeah. I like, I thought it was just
gonna be a quick little side thing.

(16:04):
Like I, I knew just like glancing over the chat that
there were multiple endings, butI didn't expect there to be one
just from the first fucking hallway that I'd go down.
Yeah, yeah, that's why I asked 'cause I, I can't remember, did
the game actually end in there, 'cause I don't feel like you go
back to the main menu and wake up.
Do you? Yeah, you do.
But you can load the save to continue with the Wheel of
Fortune, and then when you go through the ending, you get a

(16:26):
different ending. If you have the Wheel of
Fortune, when you go, it's the projector ending.
Yeah, Fortune, you get a different ending.
Yeah, cuz I I'm cuz the ending Igot right after that was just
going through the interrogation and I I didn't remember having
to like click, wake up and go through all the motions again.
But maybe I did. I just have a bad memory.
It sounds like my experience wasvery similar to Thomas.

(16:46):
I did wheel of fortune. I got fucking flash bang horror
movie jump scared and it was a, you know, it was a start to the
game. Go ahead, George.
I think it was fun. Yeah, like that's the first one
I got and it was just like, it'svery like off putting and like
unsettling to be like, what the fuck did I sign up for?
That's when I got that ending. I was like, oh, did I logic bomb

(17:06):
it because it's so fucking weird, OK.
I I'm the only person that didn't get that any first.
I remember going in there and then I remember reading the hint
and I couldn't tell what the heavenly music was, so I just
kept getting sent back to the beginning.
I was like, fuck this. So I went somewhere else and I
got the High Priestess ending where like you find like you get

(17:27):
pushed off the roof and then yougo to the hospital and then.
And then, yeah, that's the firstending I got.
And I got really confused because they just sent me back
to the main menu. I was like, what the fuck is
going on? But yeah.
I I don't. Know like like how do you guys
feel about some of the really harsh cuts that this game does
like you're definitely right about the menu.
I didn't think about it until you pointed that out, but also

(17:48):
when you're doing I want is it the is it the hierophant?
I don't think it's the Hierophant, but it's the stealth
sequence where you're like fucking Russian Buddy Guy is
trying to chase you down. Every time you turn the wheel
and go into the next room, it just like immediately cuts
without like any other kind of transition.
Very. Those, I don't know if we're

(18:09):
going to get into it later, but all those sections, I fucking
hated every single one. Can you?
So this is a question I had. Can you get caught while you're
spinning the wheel? It never happened to me, I don't
think I. Can I tried to go at?
Lightspeed because I didn't wantit to happen because I knew it
would make me jump, but I was curious if it could.
I don't think it. Could because like I also did

(18:30):
the same thing where I went at lightspeed the spin that shit
just to make sure I got through.But still like there were a
couple times where I started that sequence when the dude was
like right next to me. So like you'd have to be the
flash to be that fast and I was not.
So I'm pretty sure you can't getcaught.
That was my. Intuition too.
Did anyone get caught period? I don't actually know what

(18:51):
happens if you get caught. I think I.
I've gotten caught in many. Kids in the room.
Yeah, yeah, that's why I hate those sections.
I got caught over and over again.
It's not even like. Memorable, like you don't even
get like a jump scare five nights at Freddy payoff or
anything. It's literally just like black
screen back at the start of the room.
Do it again. Yeah, no.
Transition starts playing that stupid ass shitty song again.

(19:15):
That that. Sequence also like super
highlighted the issue that you guys pointed out in the notes of
LIKE. Like when you.
Click the edges of the screen and you can't transition to the
next room. That was awful.
Oh I can tell you the single worst screen where that's a
thing. I'm curious if you guys can just
guess because it was so fucking irritating to me that it was

(19:37):
like hard to not notice. And is it trying to leave the?
School. Yep, you're.
Gonna say it's the school, it's everything in the school.
Fucking school. Oh my God, There's like, there's
like just this small like cone that you can click on the screen
that will transition you over. And I could like never remember
where it was because the game doesn't like broadcast anything

(19:58):
to you, but you do have to clicklike on the fucking edge.
Yeah, like it was annoying. There's something like.
Weird design wise of this because like I don't think in a
game like this you want to give the player means to fast travel
to locations. Because I think that like a lot
of the experience is kind of like going from place to place.
So then adding that in but only making it work for like 30% and

(20:21):
then also not even having it fora lot of the entrances is kind
of just like all over the place designed to me.
Do you guys typically? Like that style of, you know,
it's not exactly like the old Resident Evil games, but that
style of like fixed camera that changes based on your position.
Do you guys like that traditionally?
Personally, I fucking. Love it.

(20:43):
I hate it, it makes me. Makes me think too much of
Resident Evil. Yeah, me.
Too, And I don't know, this is one of those games where like I
felt really strongly about like that whole hello Charlotte.
Should it be a visual novel thing like if this?
I don't know, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but I felt
like probably would have enjoyedthis game more if it was like

(21:03):
just a visual novel that was focused on the just the face
mechanics and that's it. I do think I do think that this
game would have been way better served if it leaned a lot more
into the like face mechanics as like AI don't know, almost like
gamifying like social scenarios like that and like playing more

(21:27):
on how people interpret your reactions to things.
But I don't know, I don't I don't feel like they really
leverage that mechanic enough toreally make it interesting in
anything beyond like the first few times that you really
interact with it. I don't know, maybe I'm being a
little harsh because I thought Ijust thought it was a really
cool idea that I felt like. I wish they would have dove into

(21:48):
a lot more I felt like. All the mechanics they made were
kind of like half baked and feltlike tech Demui just to show
that they could do it. Like that's just how I felt
about. Whereas I feel like, and this is
obviously just like hypotheticalbecause you'd have to like go
back in time and like back to when they first scoped the game.
But I feel like maybe if they spent all that energy just

(22:09):
focusing on the 1 mechanic and it's, it could be the Facebook,
it could be something else. But like, instead of like
spreading out and doing all these different things like Doki
Doki literature club and all that, like, I don't know, just
focusing and making like one part of it, like really good.
Like like taking the face mechanic and instead of making
it just like basically a dialogue choice, you can just

(22:29):
have like a reputation meter on like Michael Graves for example,
where like you like if you want to get a certain outcome, you
have to like actually get him mad overtime, not just like
respond to 1 dialogue with a specific moving of the eyebrows
up, you know what I mean? And that's it.
Like that's the extent of the mechanic is what I described,

(22:51):
except you just use like 3 emotions.
It's like sad smile and surprisethere is.
Like a. Hidden confidence meter then
that determines the outcomes of the conversations specifically
for like the good cop bad cop situation at the end.
But it doesn't feel like great to interact with because of like

(23:14):
what you said, you basically just found the permutations of.
What's the faces that? I can use to get the outcome I
want, and here's. The thing I got in a secret
achievement the very first time I got that ending, you want to
know what it was? Oh, it's, I know which one it
is. It's like silent or whatever.
Because you picked Michael everytime.
Yeah, that's what I. Did I did I did the fucking
heiress thing where when he plays those dark picture horror

(23:36):
games like his gimmick is that he does the say nothing run
where there's always an option to say nothing, so he just says
nothing for the entire game. That's what I did when I got
that achievement and made me laugh.
That's fucking. Hilarious.
I didn't even know that did I didn't even know that existed.
I didn't even try. Oh, that's funny.

(23:57):
Yeah, I think the face mechanic especially, like I don't know if
you guys didn't play on easy mode, but like not on easy mode.
It's like an actively bad experience.
Like I fucking hated this game until I turned easy mode on.
What's like the? Big difference because I went
through the 1st probably like 3 or 4 interactions, not easy mode

(24:18):
and the clock ticked down so fucking fast and I didn't like
yeah, I didn't like know what any of the faces were.
So I was like, this is dumb and I missed the fucking mirror in
the beginning, which is on me. So I didn't like know how to
experiment. And yeah, it drove me crazy.
So yeah, I, I played exclusivelywithout easy mode on and I, I'm

(24:43):
kind of mixed on it. Like on one hand, I, I like that
there's a time pressure. It's kind of like a, it's kind
of like what a QuickTime event should be where it's like a
puzzle you have to solve in X amount of time.
And that kind of works with the horror aspects of it.
But kind of like Thomas has beenalluding to, and I think Jordan
too, like they, they just don't experiment with it enough.

(25:06):
It feels like there's some really cool meat there.
But with what Ben was saying earlier, I, I got that a very
similar sense where they just didn't really focus on one
thing. I very much felt like I was
playing like 3 or 4 different games all tied into one.
Because you have like your Arg game, you have your puzzle game,
like your puzzle stealth game, and you have like the facial

(25:29):
feature game, which actually ends in the like police
detective room thing. And yeah, it, it felt a bit
unfocused. Some of that felt a little bit
intentional, but I don't think it worked out for the better.
I think the. The gameplay part is definitely
all over the place and like I think the Mario Party mini game

(25:51):
where you have to match Mario's face to the face that they give
you is like infinitely more fun than any like gameplay that's
presented in this game. So I don't know, I think for
that mechanic to kind of be interesting in a way, you kind
of have to do it some way like that or just make it less of a
game and just have that be kind of like, give me all the time
that I need and then just let meset a face that I want to set
and then react accordingly. Yeah.

(26:14):
Are you? Saying like, don't tell you what
the face is. That could.
Be a way out or just have it be more reactive.
Don't have it be like because ifthe faces are just sad, angry,
like if they're just these like 6 options, then why not just let
me pick the six options? Like if, if there's like nuance
to the faces, if it's like scared but concerned or

(26:34):
something in the game reacts in that way, that's when it's like
interesting. But if it's just six menu
options that I'm going through like an annoying interface to
interact with, especially if theface is moving on its own and I
have 3 seconds to do it, I don'tknow, It just seems not fun at
all. Like in a in not fun in a bad
way versus not fun in like a horror horrific way.
Yeah, exactly. 'Cause I felt like once, once I

(26:54):
had like a familiarity with the options, it was just nothing
like the entire facial mechanic.Like rather than this like
pseudo meta commentary on like emotions as this like
performative thing, which is theentire idea behind the like

(27:17):
facial mechanic. It just comes across as like 6
dialogue options I have to pressevery time and that's all that
it is. And that like really undermines
how interesting the like thematics behind the core
mechanic is. But at the same time, I think in
order to have built it out in a way that like to me at least,

(27:38):
seems satisfying and good, I think it would have scope
creeped this shit like into the fucking stratosphere.
And I don't know if it was something that like this Russian
dude is like, I won't say capable of, but it's just like
the the what's in my head just seems really astronomical for
one dude to try to pull off. So I mean, I guess they did the

(27:58):
best they could, but I don't know.
It's like there's so much room there for super cool shit and it
just kind of didn't get there. I mean, I still want to push
back like slightly. I mostly agree with you, but I
think giving credit to the concept is still important
because #1 it's a really cool concept and #2 I think the bones

(28:22):
of what the game could be are there.
And I, I don't know, I think it's just important to give
credit for that because something I like about the
facial feature system and the kind of obscured quote UN quote
dialogue rather than giving actual dialogue boxes is like, I
kind of had this feeling when I played ball GTA3 for the first
time where like some of the dialogue options are a little

(28:44):
bit vague. Not so vague that it's going to
like 'cause some outcome that you completely like thought is
bullshit, but enough where it's like.
It it keeps it. Kind of open-ended in terms of
like how you could interpret it.And I felt the same way with
this game where like, I'm reading Michael Graves dialogue
in that confrontation or maybe with the police detectives.

(29:05):
And I think it's a fun little puzzle trying to figure out
like, like, how should I respondin this situation?
I thought that aspect was cool. Yeah, it's it's definitely like
a cool idea. I don't.
I don't want to. Say anything?
Other to the contrary of that because it is definitely an
awesome idea. I think this execution.

(29:27):
Is like what Ben said earlier though, like it feels like a
tech demo or like a game jam game versus like a concept that
was executed to like a maximum potential.
Yeah, that's pretty much. Sums up how I feel about it,
yeah. Too many like the game tried to
go in too many vectors should just picked one lane and stayed
in and I think. Well, we did, mostly.
Like talk about this surroundingthe facial feature stuff, but

(29:50):
how did you guys feel about the Arg puzzles and like having to
change your system date and whatnot?
Did you guys like that stuff? So one thing I.
Will say is that I've never played Doki Doki Literature Club
and I but I assume that this is like the type of stuff that's in
that game that people always like talk about.
Is that correct or is that wrongthis game?

(30:12):
This game goes further than DokiDoki Literature Club does.
Doki Doki Literature Club is like just kind of barely getting
its feet wet compared to this game.
Doki doki. Literature Club does a lot of
like that weird like glitchy 4thwall breaking.
But the big thing is that at theend of the game it like it does
the thing that I was talking about with Hello Charlotte where
it pulls your system name and the character refers to you as

(30:35):
that name. That's the big.
Game so. There's a lot of shit.
That you can do with files that you can also do in this game
though, like yeah, yeah, there's.
A lot of things like that. Yeah, 1.
Thing I'll say is the only reason why I brought that up is
because I I never played Doki Doki Literature Club, so this is
like my first exposure to those types of mechanics.
And while I did, I thought that it was like really cool and

(30:55):
clever to make a game this way. I don't think I would ever want
to see it again. And the reason why is because I
couldn't play this game on the ROG Ally.
I originally played on the ROG Ally, but I stopped pretty
quickly after I realized I needed the Damon DLC.
And if I kept playing on the rock alley and ran into these
mechanics I would have fucking thrown that rock alley across
the room. Well I wouldn't do that, but I

(31:17):
would be upset that I couldn't do it because I'd have to.
Like I'm not going to fucking alt tab on a on a hand hold.
It's not going to happen. I'm not going to type shit on a
hand hold. It's weird because it says.
It's Steam Deck verified, but I feel like it's not.
That's a. Fuck.
Well, it technically runs on there.
I guess I'll say that I. Think we get to redefine what
verified means. It probably works on.

(31:40):
This like you can have multiple applications open on the Steam
Deck, can't you? Yeah, you.
Can, but it's a pain. Like that's what I'm saying.
Like it's technically verified, but I don't recommend playing it
on that kind of device at all. How do you feel about it,
Jordan? What was the original?
Question how do? You feel about all the Arg shit?

(32:03):
The. Damon application was very
annoying and only a net negativefor me.
I don't think it really did anything other than just be
fucking annoying because like it, it's too.
Like it could have just been in a menu.
Like every time the Damon tells you everything it's in the top
left of the screen anyway, So like, why isn't it just in the
game? And yeah, exactly.

(32:25):
Why? Like why isn't it just like an
item you find or even pick up from the kitchen at the
beginning? Like the fact that it look I I
have an. Answer for this.
Go for it. I I just want to say.
Quickly I I would feel differently if it wasn't
explicitly spelled out in the game to go to the Damon page.
So here's my answer to this. So is the Damon DLC like as its

(32:50):
own little standalone app thing that sits there and screams in
the fucking arcade game berserk voice at you while making
obnoxious ambient white noise inthe background?
Yes, it's fucking annoying. But I think as a way that it
ties into like the sort of plot and thematic structure of the

(33:11):
game, it's kind of cool 'cause Imight be jumping ahead here a
little bit, but I think when youwant to answer the question,
who's Lila, to me the answer is it's the game.
The game is Lila, and so having daemon be something outside of
that where it's kind of explicitly spelled out that it's
like a separate entity of Lila. Like the idea is that you are

(33:36):
just interfacing with a totally different version of those like
new sphere dwellers like you, you have you are interacting
with two new sphere dwellers at once.
I think it's kind of the way that I interpret it so.
I guess I I do like that a lot, but I just wish that there was
just a different implementation.Like as stupid as this sounds

(33:56):
like, I would have much preferred if it was like a phone
app and it was just right on your phone and also if it was
more useful just in general. I just wish.
It was less annoying. Exactly.
That's all. Just less annoying because that.
DLCS reason why you're supposed to play this game in windowed
mode, and playing this game in windowed mode is the reason why
clicking at the edges is so fucking annoying.

(34:18):
True. I mean, I, I, I will say like
just one positive thing I want to say about the daemon is it
was a pretty unique experience. I think, I don't know if you
guys did this, but I like just for my own thematic purposes, I
like kept the daemon window likevisible.
I didn't like minimize it or anything like that.
So I just always had this thing staring at me and I just thought

(34:41):
like in like as a horror experience that was pretty
unique and cool. Yeah, I, I did like that aspect
of it too, because like, I was playing it on a Saturday
afternoon and I have the game open on my main monitor and I
have the Damon open on one of myother monitors.
And Mary just walks in as like, what the fuck is that?
Yeah. So I, I do think like, I, I

(35:02):
actually like the idea of the Damon.
It's just kind of another one ofthose things where the
execution, the idea is cooler than the execution in a lot of
ways. Cause yeah, I do think that the
idea once again, is, is, is super cool.
And like every so often when youwould catch it in your
peripheral vision and like the eyes would light up and like all

(35:24):
that other shit was pretty cool.But I cannot abide by how
absolutely annoying it was to click wake up, start my like
50th permutation of trying to find the right dialogue options
and the right faces to make and just here look at the diary
table. Fucking.
Annoying. Yeah, the the corollary of what

(35:45):
I just said before was that the actual dialogue just sounded so
doofy and took away all of the tension.
Yeah, I just think it was like. Too like railroad of an
experience like rather than it just kind of like acting like
its own character. Basically it was just like when
you go near the table, it tells you to look at the diary table

(36:06):
like, I don't know, just felt really like rigid and and.
I'm actually fond of that, just given like the scope of I
assume. I don't know if this game's like
solo developed, but it was certainly wasn't developed by
like a giant team. So like, I'm fine with it being
like limited in scope, but I still wish it was more useful in
like solving puzzles which it felt like it wasn't useful at

(36:26):
all except for the literal one puzzle where you need it and
that's about it. I mean, that's the thing like.
If you're going to make it, havea lot of reactivity with it, and
if not, don't make it or make itlike a more integrated thing.
That's that's how I see it, Yeah, I feel like.
There, there would have been a lot of room, like without scope
creeping it to tie a lot of the endings and puzzles together a

(36:50):
little more like all of the other outside Arg shit, like
with the Twitter account and allthat.
I feel like that, like all of this stuff could have been
integrated inside of that Damon,like more in a more interesting
way. I just want to say for the
record, as someone that loved those old, God, I can't remember

(37:10):
the name of those YouTube channels, but the old like bees,
something demands channels. Alright.
Is that what? Oh, something Hornets.
I think Marble Hornets. Is that what it was?
Yeah. Yeah.
I, I fucking loved Marble Hornets back in the day.
And I haven't had a feeling, like watching those videos for
the first time since then after playing this game that sometimes
made no sense. But you guys know what I mean?

(37:31):
Yeah, I do 'cause I'm actually like a total sucker for like
when games like it's like it's almost it's almost like it's
it's like a fourth wall break. But at the same time it's not
because it's like I, I don't know how to describe it.
It gives me like a different feeling than when a character
like looks at me and addresses me the viewer.

(37:53):
Then it does telling me to go toTwitter and like look at this
fake person's shit to solve the puzzle or whatever.
Like it's, it's it's 4th wall ish, but it instills a very
different feeling in me and I I am it like I said, I'm a huge
sucker for that kind of shit. So I actually really, actually
really liked it in this game. I mean, I just really I.
I don't like like out of game shit for main story progress.

(38:17):
I like it more when it's like Side Story progress and like
additional information like making me go to a website that
may or may not still be an active website.
Like if you're playing this gameand like the year like 2036 or
something, like never. It's it's something that I just
don't like like out of principle.
So I would, I'd rather them create an application that then
launches to who's Lila inside ofit and then everything's inside

(38:40):
of that versus like, and you lose a little bit of like the
cool, like real world shit with like the Twitter and everything
like that. But I don't, I don't, I don't
think that that idea is like novel or interesting enough to
stand alone like on its own. I will say I feel.
Like if there's any website you're going to do it with,
Twitter is probably the one to do it with because
unfortunately, that's why it's not going away for a long time,

(39:02):
I think. But yeah, I, I definitely, like,
had you in mind when I was like,like, I was messaging you guys
trying to figure out why Damon wasn't working for me because of
dumb reasons. And the entire feeling I had as
I was doing that was like, I, I feel like I'm just downloading
malware right now. Yeah, I don't.
Like that shit at. All.

(39:22):
Yeah, that that specific feelingis unpleasant and not really in
a way that I think behooved the horror aesthetic.
Yeah, I can see that. And I also definitely had the
same thought of like what the hell is going to happen when
someone tries to play this game 10 years from now and that
website that they hosted the PDFon like isn't isn't a thing

(39:43):
anymore. And especially with being.
APDF which is like a like a mainsource of like exploits.
Yeah, true. I don't know.
I think it's OK. But I just do do stuff in like
the game files or the the coolest thing the game does is
the diary code is on the Steam store under your Steam library

(40:05):
banner. That's that.
Yeah, I did like. That yeah, I thought that was.
Cool. What'd you guys think of the the
art style which I learned after this game is called Dither Punk?
What the hell? So I'd never.
Played Aubergine, So I thought it was pretty cool and like I
look, I think you guys shed on the music and I'm not like the

(40:25):
biggest fan, but I felt like themusic in that art style went
together. Whereas if you took that filter
off or that if you turned off that shader and it just ended up
with like the alone in the dark style character models, I don't
think the music would have worked at all.
So I do like, I do appreciate the visual style they went with
I. Mean cough cough.

(40:48):
The. Only thing I could really think
about when I heard the music wascough cough Twin Peaks cough
cough. So yeah, yeah, I, I think I, I
liked most of the music actually.
I thought the sound mixing, sound editing, like whatever
sounds they use for certain things was pretty trash.

(41:08):
Like when the character takes a step, he sounds like a fucking
£10,000 gorilla. For some reason I thought that
that was pretty dumb, but. In.
Terms of like the actual visuals, I liked this style more
in Obra Din. I have trouble explaining
exactly why, but like in this game I just felt like it was

(41:32):
obfuscating things in ways that I typically don't like in
horror. Like to me it's just as
generally a sign of lack of confidence when you're like
obfuscating things with like weird graphical glitches and
shit like that. And then there's other things
that happen, like when your Russian pal gets like his

(41:52):
fucking head twisted off after the stealth section.
And that part looks really goofybecause it just like stretches
out his model in this really doofy way.
But I I'm still positive on it. I just didn't like it as much as
I did in Overton, which is the only other game I played with
this side. Yeah, I don't think that this
game has shit on Oberton. I think Oberton manages to do a

(42:13):
lot more with less because, like, there's a way better use
of, like, black space in Obertonthat kind of lets scenes breathe
a little more. Whereas I feel like in this
game, like the density of the, like, monochromatic pixel shit

(42:35):
just felt like Oberden felt likeit was all like hand drawn.
Whereas this game just felt likesomeone like, took some pictures
and put it through an Instagram filter.
I guess it's sort of the way I feel about it.
Yeah. And like the other thing is that
like, I have, I have a soft spotfor the really shitty horror
games. Like I can't remember some of
the names off the top of my head, but like I, I think

(42:57):
there's like closing boba shop or something like that.
That's one of those really shitty horror games where like
all the character models are super stretched out and it makes
them look kind of uncomfortable.But in this like obviously
budget kind of way where they just couldn't make anything
better. So they just took something
shitty and made it look slightlyoff putting.
And that's the feeling I got when I looked at like 99% of the

(43:19):
character models in this game, not 99%.
All of the character models in this game except for like the
close-ups of the faces which were made in other ways.
I think the. Art style really benefits itself
specifically for the like the when you choke Martha out scene.
I think any other style, it would have just been like weird

(43:40):
and then stupid. But I think it's a cool scene,
specifically with the style thathe has, Yeah.
That's a good shot actually. I did think that a lot of the
like little cutscenes looked pretty good.
The one that immediately comes to mind is there's like a
ballroom dance hallucination sort of thing at some point
during the party, I want to say.And I thought that looked really

(44:01):
cool. Yeah, there there were.
Definitely good individual scenes, but it was kind of the
filler in between that did not contribute well to the whole.
I think like. Specifically inside the school.
Like there's just a hundred of those really shitty character
models I was talking about. Rubbed me the wrong way.

(44:22):
Would you guys think the color palettes?
Pick the ones. That hurt my eyes the least,
which was like the blue and goldone, and then I never looked at
them ever again. Pretty much I used.
I used all of them just to like see if it will like match the
vibe of whatever scene you got them in and it did for the most
part but like. I don't know, I.

(44:42):
Just wish you didn't have to like go into the menu to swap
them. I wish it was just like all in
the main screen, just like like a drop down or something you
just choose because like it was annoying.
And I guess this is a more specific thing that for Tash
were like I was recording B rolland it was just annoying that I
had a bunch of footage where I wouldn't back into the settings
menu to change the palette. That's all.

(45:04):
That is very much a self-inflicted problem.
I. I generally don't change color
palettes in these games unless Ineed to because it's like
hurting my eyes or something. This game didn't do that.
I usually don't do it because I feel like they designed the game
with a particular like, color palette in mind, so I don't
really want to change that. Most of the time.
I think it's pretty dumb, especially if they're doing it

(45:28):
for accessibility reasons, to make all of those color palettes
collectible instead of just yeahin the game.
Agreed. Yeah, I, I think.
The one thing that this game does that is cool is when it
turns the palette. You're forced to use the red
palette for when you choke Bozo out, so I thought that was like
a cool kind of like tonal shift cough cough twin.

(45:49):
Peaks cough cough I. Think just kind of using.
That more would have benefited the idea of the color palettes
because otherwise I feel like itshould just be an accessibility
thing of what doesn't hurt your eyes.
Thomas, I think you. Have brought up Twin Peaks
enough that you should just veryquickly to the audience, explain
what your opinion of it is and then we can jump off of it.

(46:13):
Yeah. One thing I complained about
majorly in this game that I actually wrote like a fucking
like quick little two page essayabout earlier today, but I said
I wasn't going to bring it up onhere 'cause I think it's too
much of like a unnecessary diatribe is that like obviously
this game, the creator very specifically calls out David
Lynch as an influence, which is fine, but I think this game

(46:36):
really crosses the threshold from influence and outright
plagiarism in a lot of ways. But like I said, I'm the only
person in this whole thing who'sreally, like, familiar with
David Lynch, so I didn't want togo off on some fucking huge
tangent about it to people who would just be like.
But that aspect of it really like, I I, I want to be clear,

(46:57):
that kind of drove me crazy at times.
Yeah. I just want to make sure that
the audience knows that at leastone of us knows that that's a
thing. If you know there's other people
out there that understand the amount of quote UN quote
plagiarism that this game is committing upon Twin Peaks.
Ah dude, it's just. Lynchian.
What do you mean? Very true.

(47:17):
I, I will say, like the word plagiarism is pretty harsh.
I think that that's up for debate, which is kind of what I
was. I was gonna try and hash out
with these fellows if they were like more familiar with David
Lynch's body of work. Because I think that there is an
interesting discussion to be hadthere for if this game is just
fucking copying someone else's homework.
So I don't want to just out and out say that that's the case.

(47:39):
I just, I want it to be known that it bothered me.
Feel like you mentioning. It, it definitely made me be
like, oh, 'cause if it's like anoriginal idea or something that
at least you can be like, well, they tried.
But if you're a derivative work,then it's like, well, why don't
I just watch the inspiration? And like the IT does separate

(48:00):
itself meaningfully enough that like, that's why there's a
debate for it just being plagiarism.
But like, there's so much other media that reinterprets or
reimagines or retranslates DavidLynch's work that doesn't just
straight up copy it. And this just felt like it was
straight up copying it. Well, in any case, before we

(48:24):
like fully jump into the kind ofmaybe meat and potatoes of the
identity, you know, who's Lila and all that?
Do you guys want to go like the lore background?
I'm mostly asking 'cause I I don't think I saw much in the
notes about it. I put it in there as a topic
because I think the lore in thisgame is pretty cool.

(48:45):
Not like stellar, but cool enough that I was interested in
it and read a bunch of like Wikipedia's for it and did a
couple endings just 'cause I thought it was cool.
Do you guys want to do like a general discussion on that stuff
or do you just want to move on? I.
Mean we can I, I didn't like deep dive into too much I didn't
watch like YouTube videos or anything, but so I would just be

(49:07):
coming at it with what my own interpretations were, which is
definitely not holistic, but I wouldn't mind talking about it
'cause it is compelling It is itis like a pretty cool idea.
I, I guess I'll just ask you guys, like, how did you feel
about how this game's narrative was presented, given that there
is like quite a bit of the lore background 'cause you know, this

(49:28):
game is, you know, it earned points for me for functionally
being in a time loop even thoughit's not, but like.
There's only. 10 to 15 minutes of like like a narrative
timeline that happens in each ending and everything else is in
the background. Did you guys like that kind of
like disconnected nature? Or do you feel like there should

(49:50):
have been more like incorporated, if that makes
sense? I think that the narrative is
just a bunch of ideas without any like tying anything.
And I didn't like that at all because like, typically I like
games with like deep lore and like shit that isn't like super
in your face. But I think that this game kind
of just put a couple bread crumbs down and then was like,

(50:12):
all right, you figure it out. I don't want to tell you
anything. And that's kind of like the
point. It even kind of makes fun of you
for wanting to know everything. What?
Are you referencing with? That.
Lila. Specifically says like when
you're talking to detective you,I don't know if you need to do
all of the endings and she says it or if it's just one of the
specific cards. But it's like humanity is so
funny. You guys always want answers.
You want to know what I am. You want you think that I'm

(50:33):
Patol, You think you'd name me this?
You name me that. Other people have given me
names. So it kind of like makes fun of
you for wanting to know what thegame is trying to tell you.
I mean, I'll say I like I usually traditionally like that
kind of stuff just because it goes back to one of my favorite
authors, Lovecraft. You know, fear of the unknown is
a huge theme. And I like the idea of like the

(50:54):
ending of this game being you trying to persuade new to
understand what this thing is. And the only person that gets an
answer for who that is just has it whispered into his ears and
goes crazy. Like very Lovecraft.
And I like that. But.
I can. Understand at least why you
wouldn't like it for the reasonsyou stayed it.

(51:16):
Yeah, I think it's. Also, just like too short of a
game to really, like, pull off any crazy ideas.
So yeah, but there's like no kind of like anything to this
game for me. Like there's no resolution at
all. Like him whispering the thing to
like, I don't need to know who Lila is, but like, I don't know,
just give me some kind of conflict.
Give me like some other God that's trying to fight over Will

(51:37):
with Lila or something. Like I don't know.
There's just not enough there for me personally to like,
really give a shit about the lore that it's trying to put
there, yeah. 'Cause I mean like this game has
a whole like. Like you are.
Not wrong in the sense that thisgame definitely had no interest
in explaining to you, but that'sbecause the whole like meta

(51:59):
textual narrative underneath thegame is that you're never going
to find out because it's the actof asking who Lila is.
Is what sustains Lila, right? Like she's not a person.
She's like this question that islike parasitically feeding on
the people who are looking for that answer, right.

(52:22):
So that's that's who detective you ha ha, quotation marks is
right. Like that is the representation
of the player who is sustaining Lila by continually asking and
wondering, even though like thatidentity only exists as long as
they keep asking. So it's like.
The whole cosmic joke of the game that your drive to analyze

(52:45):
and try and figure it out is what's making you complicit in
this continued existence. Yeah, like and and.
That's cool, but like. Have.
You fucking die and then the game uninstalls after he dies or
something like, I don't know, like have it have there be like
an ending because after you do all those cards and that whisper
thing, you could just talk to her again and just talk about

(53:07):
the cards again, like and then the game is just like not over
like, I don't know, it's it feels weird.
There's only one ending. I I do.
Agree with you. For the record, that's like what
I said is just my interpretationof it, but I'm not I don't know
if I'd say I'd necessarily endorse it as something that I
think is is good. I just think that that's kind of
the idea almost I. Know it's.

(53:30):
I mean, it's definitely the point.
I just I yeah, I. Just don't.
Think it's good? Yeah.
I I. Kind of want to go a little
deeper because we've made the little jokes about Detective U
Ha ha. It's UYOU spelled Yu.
But do you guys feel like Detective U is supposed to

(53:51):
represent the player? And if so, why do we play as
William? What's your?
Interpretation on. I thought it was.
Pretty much the same thing as Hello CC right with the
observer. Yeah, I.
Can see yeah, that's. That's just how I like and when
I go into these games, I take everything pretty much at face

(54:12):
value unless there's reason otherwise, And that's what I did
with this game. So I just thought it was just
the observer from Hello Charlotte.
And I thought that it was I'm going to this is like self
report, but I'm a little retarded and I it took.
Me a while to. Get the joke that they were
making. Like with.
Detective view or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(54:34):
But once I got it, I was like, oh, I get it now.
And then that's when I started treating it like, hello
Charlotte. Especially with the cafe ending
where it's like they're literally talking about me and
kind of making fun of me. And the fact that I'm going to
react to this when I do like thetherapy session from the load
menu, I don't. Even understand why he's named
you, because he's not you. Like you know things he doesn't

(54:55):
and he knows things that you don't.
So I don't even understand the point of that.
The purpose? Of detective you is to kind of.
How do I phrase? This he like.
He's the. Like you as the player's
reflection into like the funhouse mirror, right?
Like he is a rational half of a split self where 1/2 is

(55:21):
detective you who is sitting there interrogating Lila trying
to figure things out. And then the other half is
William slash Lila. And you're kind of meant to step
into the shoes of both. And so like, the purpose is that
he's there for you to think he'sgoing to reveal the truth, but

(55:41):
like he's just there to show howimpossible that truth is to like
deduce. So I I guess I don't really know
how to answer the question in a satisfying way, because it's not
really meant to be satisfying. I guess like part.
Of what I'm asking is like, yes,I'm I'm framing it as
representing the player for detective view, but it's really
a question of like protagonist antagonist.

(56:02):
The game is called Who's Lila? The only person in the game
trying to figure out who Lila isis Detective You.
So wouldn't that like de facto make Detective you the
protagonist? You guys agree with that?
Yeah, I think that's. I think that is kind of on its
on its face who he is. Yeah.

(56:23):
Like I think his investigation is kind of meant to be your
playthrough. So then why?
Why do you guys think we play asWilliam?
Like, why narratively? Like what is that?
Doing, I think to. Be fair, I if you played as
detective view it would be a game that I would like a lot
more. So if it was more like LA Noir?

(56:44):
Exactly. 'Cause I guess I want to.
Think about it, you don't reallylike, you don't actually really
play as you, do you? He really plays Lila, and at
least in the parts that we consider gameplay, yeah.
You do you, yeah. I mean, you're.
Playing as like. You're technically.
Playing as Will and not even Lila.
Exactly. It's like Lila's.

(57:07):
Playing as will too, when she sothat's.
Too so at least from I understand I did like a little
bit of research like reading discussions on this.
I do believe that you you are just strictly Lila, whereas like
William is kind of just like an avatar.
But you like your consciousness.Your when I say you, I mean it's
like literally you not detective, you, your

(57:27):
consciousness, your decision making is Lila basically telling
William what to do through like possession, basically, yeah.
And I. I don't know where exactly it's
stated, but I know that the wikiconfirms that at least.
So like you can debate that if you want, but like it does like
repeatedly state that Lila is the character you're playing.
And I think I, I wish I could remember where exactly that's

(57:50):
stated, but I, I think the implication is that like.
When? William's face is moving on its
own. That's like actual William
trying to make the reactions forhis face, which I I would have
to like go back and confirm, butI think.
His reactions. When the face is moving on its
own are more like honest in terms of like how William would

(58:10):
react rather than how Lila wouldreact.
That's interesting. I.
Didn't actually think about that.
Same. Because I played with easy mode
from frame zero, I didn't even give it a chance.
I would have to go. Back to really confirm that's a
sense I got sorry. Go ahead.
So yeah, because so. The thing that because like I
looked into it like a little bit.
And so the whole idea is that like Lila never wants to take

(58:32):
control of Will because wheneverLila takes control, she's not
getting like the feeding, the energy feeding that she wants to
get from the vessel. So basically when she'd be like
the stranger and stuff like that, she's trying to manipulate
him to doing the things that shewants him to do that so that she
can feed off him more. When she has to fully just take
control of Will to like kill Martha, for example, because
Martha could imprison Will and like the the the jig is up kind

(58:55):
of thing. Then Lila's like, fuck it, I got
this. And then she does it there
exclusively, but she never wantsto take control because then she
doesn't feast as well. Yeah, so I guess like the.
Real answer is that it depends on the playthrough and per what
Lila says, all of them are happening.
All of them are Canon, so. Yeah, I think Will.
'S just kind of like this emotional void, like a complete

(59:18):
emotional void space. It's just basically a puppet
doing whatever Lila wants him todo.
I mean there is that. One ending where you kind of do
see him, like for who he is, right?
Like where he's like freaking out, like scared as hell when
like the Lila ghost is approaching him.
Or did I? Is that a fever dream?
I think that I saw that. It's like the part.

(59:39):
It's like the part where you have to like, it's another one
that was like hide hideaway fromher sections, like where you
have to like run away from her and there's like a tower and
like a long staircase. Yeah.
So that's the one where I remember like seeing William
like as himself were like he's actually speaking and thinking
for himself and he's like freaking out of his mind telling
her please just go away. Yeah, 'cause that's the.

(01:00:01):
One, that's the part that precedes all the forest endings,
right? Is that is that correct?
Cause like you climb the. Tower.
You climb the tower and then yougo past the curtains.
Am I combining 2? No, I'm I'm talking about a.
Different one. Sorry, I'm thinking of a
different tower. You're you're thinking about the
one where there's like 3 storiesand there's like a cutscene at

(01:00:22):
each story. Yeah, I'm talking about the one
where there's a stealth section where Lila the ghost is chasing
you. Yeah and there's like this
longest staircase where you haveto like bait her until it chases
so you get into an elevator. I hated that section.
Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's, that's the one.
Because I, I thought that climbing that towers might get
you to the curtains, but that's where you drop that like, yeah,

(01:00:43):
yeah, that ending where you haveto like Bader.
So you can get to the elevator. That made me not want to get the
rest of the ending. I don't want to do this anymore.
I got enough out of this game. Yeah, I got.
I got. I got.
Really. Pissed at one of those screens
until I realized you have to like loop de loop around the
back of the elevator and I was like, Oh well, that's fucking

(01:01:05):
dumb because there's like no easy indication that you have to
do that and or I'm just blind. Oh, you're talking about but.
The way I did it was like you have.
To go all the way up the stairs.Get Lila to follow you all the.
Way down the stairs and then yougo up the elevator and she's not
there anymore. Oh, you guys are nuts.

(01:01:27):
Yeah, you can just go around theback of.
The elevator there and just likefucking give her the loop de
loop. I couldn't by the time I got up
the stairs. She was always basically like.
In my face, like I couldn't evenget close to that platform.
Are you talking about like when you get off at the top of the
elevator and she. Like walks right at you.
Yeah, yeah, you can just go to the left and up.

(01:01:47):
And around the. Elevator and she'll just like
chase you around and you can getbehind her that way that's funny
yeah it's it's. It's not it's I mean it.
Has to be. There's like a camera shift and
everything OK, but it's it's notlike super.
Obvious because. Yeah, like I, I was like, there
has to be a way to do this because any alternative option

(01:02:11):
for getting past her just seems unreasonable.
And yeah, I just tried looping around the back and that's what
works. I think I only tried it like
once because. The what going up the.
Elevator animation made me want to die and I was like I don't
want to watch this 50 times. While I like all my.
Efforts are in vain. It was way worse because I I

(01:02:33):
never went up the elevator. To get up there, I always walked
up the stairs and that's what really, that's crazy.
That's funny. That's funny.
Like the only. Real like gameplay section of
the game is like actively very bad.
Well do you not consider like the facial?
Expressions and the Arg stuff. Gameplay.
No, it's like the. Facial expressions.

(01:02:58):
Are there? A dialogue option with an
annoyance in the way like I think, I guess what?
I'm the way I interpret that. The way that Jordan is defining
gameplay is something that wouldjustify it not just being a a
visual novel. Sure.
Not just like extra steps. To do a dialogue.
Option, which is like basically what those things are like the

(01:03:20):
Arg stuff kind of, but like, I don't know, do we felt like a
little too like hand holding like basically needing to.
Use the Damon and then the Damonjust tells.
You the fucking answer or then you just get the PDF and then
like the first gold. It's like the only thing that's
cool because like it's kind of hidden a little bit, but it's
still like not that cool. Yeah, I thought like the the.

(01:03:42):
The best? Slash worst example of what
you're describing is when you goto the Twitter and the passcode
to the phone is like on the the cat, the collar and it just
says, wow, look at this cat's collars like I, I could have
found this without you like telling me to look at it.
It's a weird mix highlighted in red.
It's a weird. Mix of not telling you anything.
And then just like. Beating you over the head of

(01:04:03):
what? The cool stuff.
That's why I think the best 1 islike the diary thing in the
Steam thing. Like I kind of wish it had a
better clue other than like it'smy diary, I should know what
this is. Which like isn't a clue at all
for that. But like, it's so cool to be
like, oh, that's where it is versus where it's just.
Like you go to the Twitter and then you just look for the
thing. That's clearly the piece of
information that you need and then you keep going the fuck on.

(01:04:25):
I do think the Twitter thing wascool specifically like how it
had to be posted ahead of time and like it's like date accurate
but I mean it's not cool enough to where I'd be like I miss it
if it's not there well. In any case, jumping back to the
narrative. Jordan, you kind of had this
question in our notes. Did you feel satisfied with this

(01:04:46):
game's narrative? Did it have enough there for
you? Like personally no.
I just think it kind of I, I don't like when games just put
down a mystery and then just leave like halfway through.
I really like when games put down a mystery and then just
kind of keep giving you a littlebit here and a little bit there.
And then even maybe not having to be fully spelled out to you.

(01:05:07):
Kind of like a clear obscure thing or like a void stranger
kind of thing where like you need to self insert a little bit
of like maybe like research or like kind of figure out what
theory makes the most sense. And then that's what you believe
in. This game is kind of just like
here's a little bit information and this could all be fake.
Will could just be fucking crazyand like there's no real proof

(01:05:27):
of anything. But I would prefer if like Lila
was definitively a thing, which it kind of is, but there's still
like a interpretation room therethat I, I don't enjoy.
I I think I agree with you on that.
Like. I was kind of thinking this when
I finished the game of like, I, I don't like movies or more so

(01:05:49):
movies than games that just 'cause there's more movies than
games that do this. But the ones where it's like,
you know, it was all in his head.
He was crazy or like the IT was all a dream at the end of Super
Mario World 2 or whatever it is.Like I I think there's only like
1 movie I. Can think of off.
The top of my head that did thatwell, and it's like Shutter
Island, but outside of that, it always just feels like a very
cheapened way of giving A twist that invalidates the rest of the

(01:06:13):
movie. I don't think this game quite
did it that severely. But, you know, much like is in
line, I think with a lot of the rest of the game, it's just not
super focused with what it wanted to do.
Yeah, I think it's kind of like.What Tom said like earlier of
like. It's not meant to be something

(01:06:34):
that's. Crazy, but that's why I don't.
Like it? Yeah, I feel like this game just
like. Spreads itself.
Really thin on its themes and maybe I would have a different
point of view if I. Played the other games.
Where the new sphere dwellers are in.
Or maybe not, I'm not sure, but I this game just sort of.

(01:06:56):
Has a real problem with. Being a little too big for its
britches and like almost every facet.
And I think that that extends tothe plot in some regards because
again, lots of really cool ideas, lots of like good themes
being explored, cough cough. But like overall, like I said,

(01:07:16):
just spreads itself a little toothin in a lot of places.
Similarly along these lines. I have a question for you, Ben.
Was this game postmodern? Yeah, it's not even.
Not even like. A tiny.
Bit of percent post postmodern or was it?
Was it meta modern? No, they're the ones.

(01:07:37):
They're both the same thing. Are they?
I thought that meta. Modern was supposed to be like.
Optimistic at the end, I guess the the differentiator post
postmodern, yeah, that's the, it's the same thing at all,
whatever. It.
Is two different words. That mean the same.
Whatever it is, this game is decidedly postmodern.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's.

(01:07:59):
It it just feels so. In line with.
Some of the criticisms we've hadwhere it's just going in so many
directions. It's trying to tell a lot of
different stories and, let's just say, criticize a number of
political groups without, like, really telling a like, cohesive
narrative on its own. It's just unraveling all these
things without building something up by itself is the

(01:08:23):
feeling, even though I like a lot of the background lore that
I don't always get out of other game.
Yeah, this game has some like, cool world building, I will say.
But yeah, yeah, for sure, absolutely.
Postmodern as fuck. It's got that.
Like fragmented narrative. It's got some like self aware
metafiction bullshit going on. There's tons of irony.

(01:08:46):
It's very cynical. Like it's top to bottom cynical.
I would say it, I mean, it's it's, it's made by a Russian
Eastern European make very cynical shit.
And yeah, this this, this game is part and parcel postmodern as
fuck. I don't know.
If you can have your own versionof Pepe the Frog in a game.

(01:09:08):
Without it being considered postmodern Pepe.
The frog in this game. Did I miss that?
It's a Dada. Dog.
Oh, is that? What that's supposed to?
Be. I didn't even.
Like think about that and. Honestly, I forgot about that
until you just mentioned it. Yeah, it's like a 1 to 1
corollary, like it is a. Meme that was used to fuel yeah,

(01:09:29):
yeah, yeah. Whatever word they used to
describe it, Yeah. Damn, that's crazy.
I didn't. I didn't pick up on that, but
yeah, that is. Yeah, same.
That's very obvious in hindsight.
It's there is a wiki entry to I forget the guy that that made
Pepe the frog, but I'm just gonna make up and say that it
was like Fret Pirier and the. Character in the game that made.

(01:09:53):
Dada dog is Chet Murier. It's like a pig.
Latin shift. Yeah, that's crazy.
I think the game has like. There is like some like cool.
Parts that like I liked. But in like very small verse.

(01:10:13):
So I can I think it was like at the party maybe where like
instead of she just raves the rants about the guy who sucks
ass, William just has in conclusion, the guy she's
talking about sucks ass. Like I was like, oh thank you
for not putting me through some bullshit that I don't want to
read. How many endings?
Were related to that. Party because like as cool as

(01:10:34):
that section was, I only did it once and I didn't want to do it
again because am I crazy? I thought there were two.
I I only ever. Saw one but that's because I
only ever. Went to the party once because
like, I just didn't want to do it again.
Basically. It's just so many steps.
And I can tell you I'm with Ben.I only went to the party once

(01:10:54):
and I got all 15 endings, so. OK, I thought, I thought there
were two 'cause that's the ending that.
Does lead to the the fucking ghost chasing you, right?
No, the no, that's the date change is.
The ghost Chase. Oh.
That's right. God damn I can't keep this game
straight. I mean, it's all over the place.

(01:11:15):
Yeah, because I mean like my. Experience with this game was
probably playing through it like50 times and just clicking in
mildly different ways, which wasnot very fun the the Michael
Graves conversation. I went through that thing so
many times because he kept just,I was first of all, he kept
throwing me off the fucking rooflike 8 times in a row.

(01:11:36):
I got thrown off the fucking roof to the point where I was
like, is there another way to get off of this?
And then he just kept kicking myass when I was trying to get.
Thrown off the. Fucking roof.
Like it was fucking crazy. How did I get thrown off the
roof before? And it was I, I could, I, I just
kept getting locked and apparently you could beat him in
a fight. But I, I was like, I'm not
fucking doing that again. There's an achievement for that.
I didn't get it though. Oh, that's hilarious.
I didn't know you could do that.Yeah, what I did for.

(01:11:58):
That section is I've made a savefile.
Specifically right before you talked to Martha.
Oh yeah. Because otherwise I would have
just not played the game. Yeah, you absolutely have to.
Otherwise it's pure. Misery.
There is a lot of like fun dialogue in there though.
Like the one where like you're egging them?
On and where you're just like, yeah, I fucked her and she had
nice tits. Like it's just like he has a

(01:12:20):
stupid ass face and everything Like there's there's funny
things in this game and I think like the whole game kind of has
like a slight air of funny but there's not it's not like funny
enough to be funny, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I was actually worried, kind of.
Worried like coming into this? Episode because like Thomas was
saying, this game is just so hard to keep straight in your
head that like, how are you evengoing to have a rational

(01:12:44):
discussion about this rather than just following the wiki
articles and trying to collate everything so you actually
understand Yeah, like when you when you posted the itinerary
for this. Podcast, I had to do a little
research because when you postedthe questions like what was
everyone's first ending or favorite ending, I was like,
what the fuck were the endings? Like they were just the names of

(01:13:05):
the tarot cards. I don't remember what happened.
I had to look that shit up. I had to go into my achievement
history to see which when I got first and then I looked up the
article and say, OK, so this is what happened.
And that's how I answered the question.
Because without that research, Iwouldn't remember like any
discrete, like memorable, like there were many memorable
events, but I don't like remember how or why I got there.

(01:13:26):
I just know that the outcome happened.
I I think that is a credit to kind of give to.
Some of the like artistic qualities of the game, like the
the visual artistic qualities and I guess like maybe music
too. Like, yeah, I don't remember a
ton of the writing by itself, and the narrative is hard to
keep track of, but like, I remember what, like Father

(01:13:46):
Lawrence's weird ass, like, Shadowy Head looked like.
I remember what the Damon lookedlike.
All of that is very visually striking, at least.
Yeah, the afterlife call was very cool.
Which one? Oh, the father you're talking
about? Yeah, when you're talking to.
Dead. Dead.
Lawrence yeah, like all that stuff was really cool.

(01:14:07):
Yeah, I think there is also likea lot of.
Like ways to. Like read this game in a way
that I think is interesting because like, I think you can,
you can read this game in three different ways, I think.
And if you think about it as like trying to answer the

(01:14:29):
question of who's Lila, Like oneof the things that the game does
is I forget who you're talking to, but they talk shit about
utilizing like mental health as a theme for horror.
I think maybe Lila says it in one of the detective you tarot
cards. But that like got me thinking
that there's three main readingsfor this game, which one is like

(01:14:51):
a more list reading. You have like the psychological
persona coping construct readingand then the whole like meta
narrative reading of this game. So I think that like at least in
the way that this game is laid out in terms of its like
potential ways to interpret it is it's it's like it's there's a

(01:15:14):
lot of interesting through linesin this game.
I think that like this game probably warrants.
If there's ever. Like a sequel or anything coming
back to it just to see how things kind of get fleshed out
between the three different likereadings.
But I do think that that's a really interesting way that

(01:15:35):
they've managed to write this game.
I do think that's kind of the purpose of it.
Like it takes place in a universe because I think you
posted there were two other games that take play in the
universe and one of them is likea weird game or something.
And then like, so basically all the games that this team or I
don't know who developed this, but all of these games take
place in the same universe. And I think they're meant to

(01:15:56):
like build off of one another. But I still think I wish this
game was a little more like stand alone and a little more
like here's something for you towork with rather than cuz like I
still just don't like the lack of like a clear resolution.
Yeah, and I mean there's. There's nothing to be done about
that, right Cuz. Like like I said, the purpose is
to not have a resolution like that is kind of the whole the

(01:16:17):
whole deal with the game. You could still find like a
conflict between you or. Something like, like I said,
like you could still have it so that like you tries to kill
himself or something and then the Damon tells you like, but
Lila persists and then uninstalls the game, right.
Like that's not that much of a difference.
That's not that big a scope creep.
Like, I just thought of that in 5 minutes.
Like that you could do somethinglike that where there's like,
here's the definitive end and you're done, right.

(01:16:39):
It like, it just kind of feels like it just kind of ends but
doesn't because like, you can just keep talking to Lila about
things she already talked to youabout.
It was weird. Yeah.
I don't know, I guess. Like I said, I just, I think, I
don't know, I feel kind of rigidabout.
That that like if the. Game set out to not have a

(01:17:00):
satisfying conclusion because not having a satisfying
conclusion is the whole like thing that the game's trying to
say it's like. Trying.
To criticize you as the player into wanting, wanting a
satisfying ending, I think in a lot of ways.
So the fact that it's not there makes sense.
Let me let me ask this real quick, just to clarify, Jordan,

(01:17:22):
if the game did what you were describing earlier, and like
after that final scene, after you get all the endings, if it
deleted all of your saves, wouldyou consider that a satisfying
ending? Yeah, exactly.
It's like a conclusion. It's not.
Again, it's not. Satisfying.
It's a conclusion. It's like, here's the end point.
Like I don't like that she tellsyou the secret.
And then it's just like, we already talked about everything.

(01:17:42):
What else would you like to talkabout?
And then you can just pick the cards again.
It feels weird and there's and there's no like credit roll
scene. Is there is there one?
No, there is one. Where is it?
Yeah, at the end of the interrogation.
It's only for that one ending when you get.
Arrested. OK, Yeah, they definitely should
have. Done like.
Either only have the credit scene after all of the endings

(01:18:05):
or like after each ending and that's one of the endings or, or
something like that. Because like, I kind of
understand Jordan's point from that perspective.
I I still disagree that the gamedoes not.
Have a. Resolution.
Because again, I think that the players personified as detective
view and detective view is trying to figure out who's Lila.
And at the end of the game he figures out who Lila is because

(01:18:26):
she tells him. And I, I guess I understand from
the perspective of like if he got the secret and then just
goes back to standing in his chair like nothing happened or
sitting in his chair like nothing happened.
That is kind of odd. So real quick, I know that
there's like the. Ending where you shoot Lila,
right? But like, wouldn't because,
like, the whole thing is that the topo will persist if anyone

(01:18:49):
remembers her. So wouldn't he have to kill
himself? Like, is that one of the endings
or is that just. I wish it was, but it's not.
Yeah. Because like, but like.
Logically, that has to happen, right?
For. This for it to make sense, at
least if you want to have a conclusion.
Unless it's OK that Lila just stays alive and keeps killing
forever. I like, I think it's cool if he.

(01:19:11):
Kills himself and in the games like, but there's still you
like, you know, like you the player.
And then, yeah. And then that.
Kind of goes around the. Issue we were describing earlier
of too much interpretation, not enough solid like that just
outright states that detective you is the player.

(01:19:32):
And I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm like taking kind of a hard
opposite stance here just because I feel like so much of
this game is kind of about uncertainty and like a fractured
perception. And I feel like having a
definitive ending, I'll, I'll get away from the word

(01:19:53):
satisfying. I'll just say a definitive
ending like kind of betrays thatcore theme by implying that
there's a degree of coherence tothe story when the story's.
Trying to refuse that coherence in a lot of ways.
So like how to word? This like it's less about

(01:20:15):
solving. A mystery and more about making
you try to live inside of 1 and I think trying to give you a
concrete level of closure betrays the story's entire point
to a degree because like a lot of the point of the story, at
least in the way that I read it,is that like things like

(01:20:37):
identity, guilt, meaning like things like that and the way
that we emote and socialize withpeople are messy.
They're performative and ultimately kind of unknowable.
And I think that that kind of unknowable quality is what's
underscoring the entire game in a lot of ways.
And again, cough, cough, very Lynchian.

(01:21:00):
And again, I don't know, I thinkthat having a very concrete
interpretation or ending to thisgame would really get in the way
of what it's trying to say slashdo, but a concrete.
Ending of just you killing himself and then the game.
And then the Damon or even beinglike, but there's still you is
that does that like really change anything?

(01:21:22):
If it's against the themes of the game, say that again.
Run it. Run it so.
If so, if. Lila whispers to Detective.
View like what Lila is and then let's just say he takes the gun
and blows his fucking brains outand then the game closes.
But then the the Damon's like, but they're still you and then
maybe like your save files gone or whatever when you reopen the
game. Is that really like conflict
themes that the games you're trying to work with?

(01:21:44):
Because I I don't like, I'm not saying that I want them to tell
me everything there is about theuniverse or like give me a happy
ending or anything like that. I just kind of want there to be
kind of something a little more provocative at the end because
like, yeah, the character figures it out.
But like me, the player is like,OK, I didn't figure anything
out. The game's just kind of over
now. I have no sense of satisfaction
of like any sense of like, it's over.

(01:22:05):
You can do the weird wheel. I am ending, which is not
anything that really matters at all for like the lower the game,
I think. So I don't know, it was just
kind of like a little meh, so. It's hard for me.
To try and reinterpret the entire game from that.
But let me let me ask you what like what does that?

(01:22:28):
Add. To the story or the game or
whatever that makes it feel moresatisfying.
Is that Is that the right word it?
Ties up a. Narrative thread because Lila
will always. Exist if at least one person
remembers her, and Detective Youis someone who remembers her.
Yeah, but the whole purpose of the game is.

(01:22:49):
Like it's the game. Like by playing the game you've.
Lost the game, right? So I don't know that it really
needs to state that any further than it already does.
I think it'd be cooler if it didif.
It leaned into it a little bit and.
Was and like really was like, OK, he killed himself.

(01:23:11):
Your turn, bitch. Yeah, the could you is.
It even possible to program? The game where you get an
achievement for uninstalling it?I don't think that's possible.
It'd be cool. But I think it's impossible.
Oh, maybe I don't know how. I don't know how Steam
achievements work. I guess like you could, you
could set whatever trigger to give you the achievement and

(01:23:33):
then like take it away, uninstall it after that.
I I don't know, can you uninstall through C# through
Unity code? I I don't think so.
Can you? That's like a security risk.
Where? You can, yeah.
It would be a huge experience. Like delete people's files.
And shit. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

(01:23:55):
I guess to me like. The whole the whole idea behind
that, like I don't I'm not goingto say it would be a bad idea
and if it would be more like satisfying for you guys, then I
think that that's fine. I just I just I just think it's
unnecessary. I think is is my main.
The the issue that I would take with that is it just feels
totally unnecessary, Like it doesn't add anything to the

(01:24:16):
conversation around the story, the plot, the themes of the
etcetera of the game in my eyes anyway.
I think what Jordan's getting guys is that it's just it's.
Just an like a definitive endingwhere you feel like you don't
have to press wake up again. Yeah, no.
And and I get that. Like I said, I just, I don't.
Like again, with the way that I've sort of read this game, I

(01:24:38):
just don't think it adds anything for like for me, Like
it doesn't alter the way that I perceive anything about what
this game's trying to say. I I think to like drag like like
like zoom out what what they're trying to say I think is like,
like the problem exists and. I think it's still.

(01:24:59):
Solvable while staying true to the narrative themes.
I'm not like proficient enough in this game's lore and
narrative or like writing in general to say exactly what that
is, but I I think it is true that even in a game like this
you could have something that wraps everything up in a more

(01:25:20):
cohesive way while staying true to the.
Themes that you're. Describing I'm not saying it
needs to like, you know, anchor itself down to reality and the
state that this is the ending, but just having something in
there again, I I like, I can't come up with an example, but.
I I think you. Could solve for that so like so

(01:25:40):
I, I. At this.
Point I just want to say like I don't think he should change.
The game. This is just saying.
For me to enjoy it more, this issomething that I would want in
the game. And because for me, it would be
so much more provocative and memorable if something like that
happens versus it just like nothing happens.
Yeah. So like here's here's.
My my. Counter argument there.
And and again, like, I know we're not advocating change in

(01:26:02):
the game. I I'm just trying to get to the
bottom of what defines A satisfying ending for you guys,
I guess because I know I have a very different point of view on
this than you do. But like, the reason I say I
don't think it's necessary is because the story, the story
already conveys. Did I say story again?

(01:26:24):
Yeah, you did. You did.
Jesus Christ. Not a story.
Already, that's what I was trying to say, by the way, the
story already conveys a lot of those themes that the ending
that you guys are talking about would put forth.
And I think it's a little more subtler and psychologically

(01:26:46):
effective in the way that it does it.
Like, I feel like if they added something like that, it runs the
risk of just kind of being a little bit redundant and
removing some degree of the tension that, again, kind of
underscores the game. Like, I don't think it would be
bad, and I don't think that it betrays the message that the

(01:27:09):
game's trying to tell. I just think it's, yeah,
redundant. I think would be the right word
I would use. I think I want to say
thematically but not as like an experience like I don't.
Know I think it would give it like a super cool thing if like
the the the demon starts talkingto you afterwards or something
like I think this would have it be a little more a bigger sense
of finality. Again, it's not going to change

(01:27:29):
like what the game saying or anyof the teams or anything.
It's more of like, here's a memorable experience for you to
leave away with and here's a provocative thing of like Lila
is perpetuating itself in you and there's nothing that you can
do about it kind of thing where that's implied, but to just be
like that's in your face. This is the end of the game.
Fucking deal with it is a lot more memorable, profound to me.
Like I I want to say two things #1.

(01:27:50):
Is that I? Feel like this is like a lesser
point. Once you establish the fact that
you're going to break the 4th wall and do all this Arg shit,
it kind of opens the door for any potential, which kind of
raises the expectations of what the game will do, I think.
And #2 is that like, and Jordan,you can correct me if this isn't

(01:28:10):
really where you're going with it, but I, I feel like kind of
what you're describing is if theending of the original Near
didn't like systematically delete all of your saves, Like,
yeah, the game didn't need to dothat.
It still would have had the ending.
Everyone would have forgotten that Near the person existed.
But to provide that sense of finality, it went the extra step

(01:28:30):
and just straight up deleted everything.
That's that's not analogous herethough, because that has a very
clear and present story implication for why that's
happening. Because the entire purpose
behind that decision being made is that Near has to sacrifice
his entire existence within thatuniverse, memories and all, in

(01:28:50):
order to save his daughter or sister.
Whatever the fuck version you play like that has a story
purpose behind it. That makes sense.
Whereas I think if the way that I'm understanding the way that
you guys would want to alter thegame here, I don't think it adds
anything to the story. It just kind of because like if

(01:29:12):
detective U is meant to represent the player and then
the player blows his brains out,it's sort of like this
self-destructive sledgehammer tothe narrative that I don't think
the game would benefit from in alot of ways.
I mean, he doesn't even need you.
Then you could just. Make it so like I can't get back
to that scene. Or something and then be like
and then do something else like.I don't know, I think I think

(01:29:34):
the way the game ends is very unsatisfactory and just kind of
like up in the air and very immemorable versus the way that
the Undertale gender side route ends is like very memorable and
was even supposed to be more memorable, but Toby couldn't
figure out how to delete the game from your computer that was
in sick. But yeah, and.
Like like I'm thinking. Of something really fun you

(01:29:55):
could do in this game is like make it so after that ending
where she tells detective you the the dark secret, whatever
the hell and again, this would be like super.
I don't think you could do this.It would be super malware but
just create like 100 icons on your desktop.
That all say like. Lila or some shit like that.

(01:30:16):
And they're just like blank files, but it's just like
describing the proliferation of the like psyche of this being
like just something like that. I I, I just feel like it, it
doesn't quite go the extra step,but it's a lot of the Arg 4th
wall breaky stuff set up my expectation to be something
fucking crazy, I guess. Yeah.

(01:30:37):
I actually think that version isway sicker.
If you change nothing other thanjust like putting a bunch of
empty Lyla files on your computer, I think that would be
cool. And I think that would stay a
lot more in line with the game. I think that would be neat.
So like if you open the game again, like you can't play the.
Game anymore like there's some kind of like placeholder there
or something and then you would have to like go and reset your
data to play it just like something kind of like that.

(01:31:00):
I don't like this possible. Actually you can't do.
That with Unity you just fuck upthe game so much that you have
to go into steam and press verify integrity.
I mean you just you can just give a save.
File that like you don't need todo anything.
Like corruption, you just give asave file that puts you in a
state of like a black screen or something right?
Like that's pretty, yeah. Under tilted.
Yeah, I could just just like the.

(01:31:22):
Fact that I could just reload the.
U office scene was really weird like I was just because I
expected when I could do it to for the game to react
accordingly and but there wasn'tanything there so I was like
that's weird yeah and again, like the game sets the
expectation of. Like having the 4th wall breaky
stuff and having like a fair amount of reactivity for a game

(01:31:43):
of this scope. So again, I feel like.
Expectations were. Set that it didn't follow
through on I I also just didn't pick up on a lot of this until
like Jordan was describing it. But yeah, I think I see what
you're talking about yeah I don't know, like I said, I I
don't feel super strongly about it.
I just think this game plays with this like kind of weird

(01:32:06):
liminal void space inside of itsown ambiguity in a way that I
think I I think it would be really easy to ruin that aspect
of it and I would be pretty hesitant to like really again
take a sledgehammer to to some of the shit.
I I, I get what you guys are saying, that some punchiness

(01:32:28):
would be nice, but I don't thinkthis game was ever trying to be
punchy. Yeah.
And for me personally? I like off my own bias I
usually. Don't like those things.
I don't like when things are like super up in the air and it
just like throw concepts up there and then like don't give
you anything to like work with at the end.
Like I actively don't like thosethings.
That's why if it for for me to get like more out of it, that's

(01:32:48):
what would have to change. Yeah, and I'm not even saying.
That I think this game does it well.
I just think that is like it's artistic vision.
Sure. Well, I think that.
That was. A fine discussion.
Would you guys like to start zooming out and then we can wrap
up with ratings? Yep.

(01:33:10):
All right. Oh, yeah.
I am really curious, Jordan. I hope you have.
Some stuff to say on this, because I just straight up wrote
the question that you wrote in the notes, which is that the
question asking is should a horror game be fun and why or
why not? Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's
fun because like as I. Was playing this game I was.
Like this game's not fun. And I was like, horror games

(01:33:32):
aren't supposed to be fun. And I was like, well, that's not
true because there's a lot of horror games that are fun.
It's just that you can't be likehappy fun.
Like it needs to be like a senseof like rewarding or a sense of
like respite or relief is the kind of fun that horror games
provide. As specifically for Who's Lila?
I don't think it has anything close to that.
Like, I don't think the game's even kind of fun.

(01:33:53):
I think it's just kind of like an experience more than it is
fun or not fun. But for something like, I think
for like Five Nights at Freddy's, it's like a game
that's like fun. Like because it's like, it's a
game, right? Like it's very much like of the
one of the gameiest horror gamesthere is with like a wind
condition and everything. But then like when you lose, you
get that quick sense of like fuck, and then you can even
laugh about it because like you got scared, whatever haha.

(01:34:15):
And then you just do it again. And I think that game does fun
really well in a horror context.Yeah, I think it's always an
interesting idea. Concept when you're talking
about horror to also like bring up comedy, you know just look up
all the Jordan peele movies as an example all the that shit's
funny as fuck. All your horrors slop is funny

(01:34:37):
as fuck and like when you're talking about this the game I I
go to is amnesia because I personally, I don't know if you
guys agree, but I think that game is really fun, but it's
also like fucking funny. You got this, like, weird naked
dude chasing you through this medieval castle and I I Yeah, I
feel like the moments of levity in horror with comedy like that

(01:35:02):
makes it fun for me on top of other reasons.
But what do you guys think? Yeah, I agree that like scary in
the. Moment but funny in the after.
Is kind of like the perfect mix,which I think is what amnesia is
like. When you're going through it,
you're like, this is awful. But then when you watch other
people go through it, you're like, this is awesome.
So yeah, I'm not a. Horror gamer at all in that.

(01:35:25):
Like all these games that I knowabout them, like I know about
Amnesia and stuff like that, butI've never played them.
But one thing I will say is thatmaybe I'm just not a fan of
horror, and that's maybe a little bit of a spoiler first
acknowledge. But like, I actually like the
game a lot, but there's a lot that I don't like about it.
And everything that I don't likeabout it is what's in Resident

(01:35:46):
Evil basically. So maybe I just don't like
horror in general. I always do video gaming.
Yeah, it's. Crazy for me because like.
Everyone's sitting on this call and knows that I'm like a
fucking massive horror nut job, but I've always found it
difficult to act play actual horror video games.

(01:36:10):
And it's like it's really hard for me to sit and try and
rationalize that because it's it's just a thing.
And you guys talking about horror and comedy, I mean,
there's a reason why those two things go together really well
and it's because they are on theexact same kind of emotional
axis, right? So horror and comedy, the entire

(01:36:32):
point of both of those things isto build tension and then
release it. The problem is or well, not the
problem, but the difference is 1does that through fear,
suspense, dread, whatever. And the other one does it
through like some sort of expectation or like subversion
of social norms or misunderstanding or whatever.

(01:36:54):
And then it releases it through some kind of like surprise or
absurdity or incongruity or whatever.
So both are like manipulating this degree of anticipation and
emotional response that you have.
So it's, it's always fun to think about how exactly the same
horror and comedy are, even though like on their face they

(01:37:15):
are completely different concepts, but they are playing
with the exact same emotions andthe exact kind of way.
And I think one of the problems I have with horror games is that
there's so much tension buildup and the release.
Just like fucks. Me up and I don't know.
Why that is? But like, like, if I'm sitting

(01:37:38):
there playing the Silent Hill Two remake, dude, like I'm
sitting there, I'm getting jittery.
My fucking hands are sweating. I am like feeling legitimately
anxious and uncomfortable in a way that I don't feel when I am
like watching some scary ass fucking horror movie.
Like it's magnified so much and it's really, really difficult

(01:37:58):
for me to try and figure out whythat is.
So the question of should a horror game be fun?
Yes. Like it's a fucking video game.
It should absolutely be fun, butI think that there's this weird
quality to video games that makethem so much more effective, I
guess with that tension buildup than something like a movie or a

(01:38:20):
book or ATV show or whatever. And it undermines that fun in a
way that just makes me personally feel fucking
uncomfortable. Jordan and or What is his name?
What is his name? Jordan Peele.
No. No, no, no.
Joseph Anderson. Is going to dislike this video.

(01:38:43):
That's funny. So what when you say?
Like should horror. Games be fun.
I don't think that that's necessarily true.
I think no matter what, a horrorgame should at least be
intriguing, because I don't think Devotion's fun.
But people say that like, Devotion is like one of the best
horror games, but I don't think the game's anywhere near fun.
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, that's the only horror
game I. Think I've ever really, truly

(01:39:03):
loved that I can think of. Yeah.
And it's nowhere near fun. Like it's kind of like almost
like a walking. It's a walking.
SIM Yeah, yeah, I don't think they.
Need to be fun. I just think intrigue.
Is the number one thing that a horror game needs to have.
Yeah, I think that's the an interesting thing.
That I was thinking. Of as Thomas was talking like
the the weird thing about horrorgames is I don't feel like they

(01:39:23):
need to be fun in order to be fun that that statement makes no
sense. But I'm thinking of a game like
like like Soma, for example, like you're not there.
There's not much gameplay in Soma but like that, that tension
sequence that Thomas was describing is so clearly present
throughout the entire game that it like you can't help but just

(01:39:44):
turn that quarter and hope that the monster isn't there.
Or like like Dead Space is another example.
A game that I can never fucking play for the same reason Thomas
wasn't describing, because like I'm just always on edge at all
times. It does not stop.
But something about that feelingof being on edge even though I
can't play it just is super. Cool and good and it's a very

(01:40:10):
unique experience, I think. And like, I think back to like
Raven Home back when I was a tiny baby boy and I couldn't get
through Raven Home as like a 10 year old kid.
Like it, it's still so much fun,especially in something as
episodic as Half Life was where you have this like super horror
sequence and you just feel so much satisfaction when you

(01:40:31):
finally get out of there becauseit's non-stop tension and then
finally released when you come out the tunnels.
Yeah. And I think, I think a lot of
this discussion sort of. Depends on how.
You want to define fun, right? I mean, like you can say fun is
like just the fucking quality ofjoy and amusement and

(01:40:54):
satisfaction. But like I derive fun in a lot
of different ways. And one of those ways is through
that feeling of like, actually feeling anxious.
Like, like the reason I think Uncut Gems is such a good movie
is because that is like the closest movie analog I can think
of to playing a fucking horror video game where like your brain

(01:41:16):
is just wired the entire time ina way that doesn't feel great.
But there's like a degree of, ofsomething like primally
interesting about the way that avideo game, particularly a
horror video game, can just really get under your skin.

(01:41:37):
And if you can derive fun from that way of evoking tension and
dread or unease or whatever it, it, it's, it's hard to define
those things as fun, but they'redefinitely compelling, even
though they may not necessarily be enjoyable.
So like fun is a tool for engagement.

(01:41:59):
And if you can engage with something that makes you feel
that way in a way that's fun, then that works for you.
But for me, it just makes me feel like I'm my heart rate is
230. It's like the dumbest.
Comparison to make, but it's theonly thing that like.
I can like kind of understand what you guys are saying because
I fucking hate roller coasters, but I'm going to, I'm willing to

(01:42:23):
bet that people that like rollercoasters, like really like them.
So like, I understand that they do, but I don't.
And that's just me and horror, Iguess.
Or horror video games. Yeah, it's basically like,
exhilarating. Is what they are.
Like all horror games are going to be a level of, like,
exhilarating. I think that's why I like when
Seth was talking about Soma, I think Soma is like a very

(01:42:44):
exhilarating experience. And so yeah.
And it's fun when like you go through that and like you're
just like an overwhelming rush of like emotions and shit like
that. And if you like that, then you
like the endorphins and everything that you get
afterwards. But if you don't like that, then
obviously you're not going to want to do that and even a
little bit. So yeah, yeah.
And I think I think the analogy that.
I'm thinking of even though thisone has like a very physical

(01:43:08):
response is, is eating spicy food Like you can like there are
people who, I mean, there's two.Of them in here, at least, I
don't. Know about Jordan but people who
eat Thai hot every single time they go out and get food
whenever they can and that's pussy shit though, can eat it

(01:43:28):
without a. Sweat.
But then there's other people that can't even get it as mild,
like my mom without like dying. And it's, I, I feel like it's
kind of similar with horror in the sense of like, it just kind
of like you guys are saying, it just depends on where you derive
these feelings from. And some people are very
conducive to getting the shit scared out of them, and some

(01:43:51):
people aren't. And, you know, that can even
vary between movies and games like it does with Thomas.
And it's, it's pretty interesting.
Yeah. Because like, the whole thing
for me is like, and I I've stillnot figured it out.
Why I love horror so much. And that does extend to video
games. Like conceptually, I love horror
games. I just can't fucking play them.

(01:44:12):
And it's like bizarre to me to try and figure out why that is.
And like, the only thing I've ever settled on is like, it's
really different when you are just an audience sitting there
engaging with the work where versus like being the one
steering the ship. Like, like when you're steering
the ship, it's a whole lot of fucking scarier because there's

(01:44:32):
like a degree of stakes that getat like personal stakes that get
added to it that like really ramp the thing up.
And at least for me, like an exponential way.
I assume you can watch people play horror games, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no problem.
I just can't play them. Like I can't tell you how many
times I've tried to play Alien Isolation.
Dude, I I fucking love Alien. Alien is one of my favorite,

(01:44:56):
like just franchises of all time.
I start up Alien the first time that I hear that fucker scurry
by me. I like shit my pants.
The first time I see it, I alt have 4.
Like I'm done. That's my experience.
With that game too. I think there was a time where I
was streaming. I forget the is it Amnesia

(01:45:16):
Rebirth? What's it called?
Yeah, Rebirth is when I was thinking of where I was
streaming it and like nothing was happening.
I was in like the first quarter of the game where nothing
fucking happens and I can't eventurn corners because I'm just so
fucking freaked out at all times.
And then I, I remember when I was playing Blueprints and
Jordan was watching me play and I get to the the darkroom, I

(01:45:36):
think it's called for the first time, like the rooms.
Oh yeah, like the the red light is in.
And it does that like. Light flickering thing and dude
it scared me walk out of me I was like holy fucking shit I.
I know. Exactly what you mean.
Yeah, that's funny. You know, the crazy thing,
though, just to like, dig myselfdeeper into a nonsense hole, is

(01:45:58):
I've played through Amnesia and Soma, and I didn't think those
games were that scary. But I cannot play Alien
Isolation. I cannot play well, I won't say
cannot because I want to try it again at some point, but dude,
the Silent Hill two remake was fucking me up, fucking me up.
I mean, I I will say the even though amnesia fucks me up, Dark

(01:46:20):
Descent, that is like the the dude that runs at you with the
knife is just fucking doofy, Whereas again, like the fucking
naked guy. Whereas at least the the alien
and alien isolation, like, you know, people have seen the movie
like things pretty fucking intelligent and that's a whole
new layer of fear. I know for a fact I've never
play. Amnesia and the.

(01:46:40):
Reason why is because like I've never played it, but like I
watched like a very long, like multiple hour long retrospective
on the game, like to go to sleepand I got nightmares like oh,
listening to it. That's crazy.
I mean if that. Retrospective went through like.
All the torture devices and stuff like that, shit's fucking
gross. That's when I learned about the

(01:47:02):
torture device where they just. Lower you onto a pyramid.
Hell yeah yeah. Which?
Direction or what? Part of using.
Your butt hole. From the bum hole your butt.
Hole though, Oh, that was the. First time I learned about the
what's. It called the golden.
Bison. Is that what it's called?
The golden gold? Yeah.

(01:47:22):
Something like that. I know what you're talking
about. The thing that burns you, Rosie.
Alive. Yeah.
That they that they put in. Like.
Ancient Greek parties, and we'republicly executing it.
Executing someone inside of the brazen bull, that's what it's
called. They were just publicly
executing people and no one was the wiser because it was inside
a big old bowl. Got him.

(01:47:48):
Well, why don't we go ahead? And.
Wrap up with. Ratings.
Do you guys have any closing thoughts before we get into our
spiel rate? I didn't write any.
Kind of fucking. Shit for this rating.
Either so I'm just going to wingit.
I put zero thought into it, Thomas, go ahead.
Oh, why me? OK, after what?

(01:48:10):
I after what I just said so even.
Though my. Overall vibe for this game up to
this point has probably sounded pretty negative.
I actually did have a decent time with this game.
I thought that there were a lot of ideas at play in the mix that

(01:48:31):
came together to make a soup that just needed a little more
salt. Like, lots of cool ideas, the
facial mechanic stuff, cool idea.
The Arg stuff. I'm always a sucker for that.
Like, I loved having to go off to Twitter.
I loved having to download some fucking PDF virus.
I thought that the way that the DLC was handled, at least

(01:48:52):
conceptually was cool, it's justthe problem is in everything in
the subsurface layer of the execution where like yes the
facial mechanic stuff was cool, but it didn't really justify its
existence as like a core mechanic to revolve an entire
game around the DLC. Conceptually cool, but also

(01:49:15):
really fucking annoying Arg stuff that just stayed cool.
Good job. Lean into that more because
you're really good at that. But I thought that the art
style, even though like I think I sort of talked a little bit of
shit about it, I was talking shit because I was comparing it
to Oberdin and that game just isfucking incredible.
But overall, I thought the styleof this game actually was pretty

(01:49:36):
neat. World building, cool story, cool
thematic elements, and sort of the meta textual narrative
underneath The story itself, also cool.
But it's also very very, very, very very hard for me to ignore
exactly how much this plagiarizes Twin Peaks and David
Lynch in general. Which again, I did not want to

(01:49:57):
go off on a huge tangent about, but like, it is a fucking
egregious SO lots of cool. Ideas in the mix?
Just really half baked. And I think in order for this
game to have not been half baked, I think it would have, it
would have needed a level of scope creep that I think is way

(01:50:17):
beyond what a solo dev, which I think this game was solo dev D
probably could have done. So I'm not going to be too
unfair on that. And I'm going to give this game
a very soft 7 out of 10, probably closer to 6.5, but
pretty I'm I'll stick with seven.

(01:50:39):
Yeah, SES cancelled bro. Jordan didn't factor in Thomas's
love of horror. Yeah.
That's why I didn't think you wouldn't like it that much,
because I. Thought the touch thing was
going to. Be the nail and death.
Yeah. I mean, I think if we had.
Like if we had really talked about.
That I think like if we had goneinto like an in depth discussion

(01:51:02):
about it, it probably would havelowered my rating like in the
moment. But yeah, again, I, I, I haven't
really. Ironed out the way I feel about
that. Like particular aspect of it
either. Like I've been thinking about it
most of the day and I still don't really know where I fall.
Why don't? We do bend necks, sure.
So kind of like what? You mentioned.

(01:51:24):
Thomas I felt like a lot of the mechanics and the things that
the developer tried to do were cool ideas but half baked in
execution. I do like in my mind's eye, I
can envision this game just paring down the scope just to
focus primarily on the facial mechanic and the Arg, and I

(01:51:46):
think that I would have enjoyed a lot more.
That being said, the narrative threads I kept the replaying the
game over and over again to get the different endings which
surprised me because normally I just don't really like doing
that, especially when. This it's such.
An abrupt cut from like 90% of the endings to the main menu
that it was kind of off putting.And also to be fair to like my

(01:52:10):
own personal taste, if we weren't attached in this game,
it would have been uninstalled after the first ending just
because of how unsatisfying it was.
But because I knew there was more and I could feel that there
was more, it did keep me going and I did actually enjoy my or I
wouldn't see because I intenselydisliked playing this game like
with with my eyes and. Brain and hands I did not.

(01:52:33):
Enjoy playing the game, but I did enjoy learning about the
story and the characters and allthat and I do like the cool
ideas. Execution is it is what it is.
So my rating is actually a 7 outof 10.
Damn, a shot too high. We all missed.

(01:52:56):
I think that's going to. Be a theme for me is.
Is aiming too high? And how about toward?
I don't really want to like repeat basically everything you
guys just said. I can kind of just say like the
more time I get removed from playing this game, the like the
lower I think of this game just because like I think a lot of it

(01:53:16):
is kind of just like cool novelty.
But once you kind of see everything that has the lay,
like everything that has the offer, it's like, oh, I've kind
of this everywhere before. So I don't know, I don't I don't
think it was like a great experience.
So yeah, for me, it just kept going down and down.
And right now, currently, I think I'm at like a four and a
half. Shot way too high.

(01:53:38):
Well, Seth. Damn, Seth.
Was am I cancelled Seth still still.
Cancelled, by the way. Yeah, Seth.
Did already like yeah. I think he would have.
Been probably around you guys ifhe didn't have the context of me
talking about it. Maybe, I don't know.
I I do, I do actually agree with.
One thing you said, though, which is that the further you
get away from playing this game,the like less good.

(01:54:02):
You think it was like that that that's been true for me as well.
I feel like the more I finished this game on Saturday, so it's
been about 48 hours and my opinion of it has just kind of
slowly gone down and down. Yeah.
I mean, I finished it like maybelike 5 days ago.
And I think when I finished it, I was at around like a 6 1/2.
And it's only like every like, day and a half.

(01:54:22):
I'm like, no, it wasn't that good.
And I keep looking at like, whatdo I, what do I rate?
6 1/2? Oh, it's definitely not that
good. And it just slowly keeps going
down. Yeah.
It's like, I don't know where it's gonna bottom out.
Like immediately after I finished it I noticed that that
dude had made. That 8 hour YouTube video and
there was a part of me that was like, you know what, maybe I'll
watch this, like maybe I'll justwatch this over the next couple
of days. I'll come locked and loaded with

(01:54:42):
some stuff to talk about on the podcast.
And then I was like 8 hours though, like no fucking way.
But like, immediately after I finished it, I was.
Interested and engaged. Enough that I did like, at least
consider it. And then I was like looking for
some other YouTube videos and there was one that's like an
hour and a half long and I was like, I'll watch this at work.
And today was work. And I was like, yeah, fuck it,

(01:55:04):
I'm just going to go with what Iknow.
Like I, I read a lot of the. Wiki.
Articles and it was interesting but what I'm realizing right now
in the moment is I never actually like top to bottom to
any of whereas with something like, you know World of
Warcraft, not to like compare a low to a high.
But like World of Warcraft, you can go on that wiki and just you

(01:55:25):
just won't stop because it's it's just really cool.
But yeah, like I, I, I echo a lot of what Jordan said in the
sense of this game has a lot of cool concepts.
It doesn't feel like it follows through with all of them enough
to create a a good enough game to stand out.

(01:55:49):
And the reason? I'm still going to be.
Giving this a positive score is because I have so much
background with the fucking Marble Hornets and those shitty
horror games that I was describing earlier that I just,
you know, kind of a guilty pleasure.
I enjoyed them and I didn't outright hate this game.
I thought that the art style wasunique enough.

(01:56:10):
The like concept was. Cool enough it.
It stood out enough for me to give it a positive score.
Not a lot past that. And, you know, maybe I'll be
with. Jordan in three years and I'll.
Drop it negative, but for now, because of my prior
inclinations, I'm going to give it a sick.

(01:56:32):
Fuck that's funny. God damn you're all the way up.
Was it 8I? Had I had I had no idea how to
gauge people's thoughts on this game man.
I had no clue. In your defence, I had like no
time to post in the chat. So.
But yeah, I think I'm also with you in that sense.

(01:56:54):
Where like I feel. Like a lot of the Arg stuff is
just something that I personallylike so much when it's done that
I think it pretty much solely carried it to the seven out of
10 rating that I gave it. Like, I don't know, I'm just a
real sucker for that kind of shit.

(01:57:15):
As I've said like 5 Times Now, Ijust, I just really enjoy that.
Yeah, it was cool. I don't think this is a bad
game. I just think it's like it's OK.
Well, Anthony's boys, that's a wrap on this.
What are we playing next week? You tell us that you picked it.
Oh, I picked it. We're playing.

(01:57:36):
Sig Dallas It's a horror game. I think about lesbians or
something, I'm not sure. That's what I got from about 5
seconds of understanding. Send 1000 X resist.
That's just the vibe I got when I.
Was when I was looking at the characters.
Though they're all Asian women again, it's very funny to say
that Signalis is a horror game about.

(01:57:57):
Lesbians, Yeah, I'm wondering. If I'm going to be playing this
shit one hand. Jesus Christ, no, I don't think
you. Will controller, yeah.
If yeah, if you want. A game that has 6 hour.
YouTube videos by like 50 channels.
It's Signalis. I don't know, I.

(01:58:19):
I just randomly found this in some red pits and.
I looked at the trailer and thought it was very visually
cool, so I wanted to give it a shot.
Yeah, I don't want to say why, because I think that kind of
ruins. A lot of the coolness of it, but
yeah, there's just it's it's cool.
It's cool. And you know what else was cool?
This episode, Yes. All right.

(01:58:42):
Bye, Craig.