Episode 19: Signalis

Just in time for Spooktober, Seth picked Signalis, a sci-fi horror filled with... cyborg lesbians?

Episode Transcript

(00:13):
Hello again friends. This week we played Signalis, a
sci-fi horror where you play as a Cyborg exploring an
underground mining facility thatbecomes increasingly surreal as
you uncover the mystery surrounding it.
It was released in 2022 after eight years of development by
Rose Engine, a team of only two developers.

(00:35):
Please be aware that our discussion involves in depth
topics of the narrative. There will be spoilers
throughout. There will also be some light
spoilers of Claire Obscure. With all of that out of the way,
enjoy the episode. This week we played Signalis.
I chose this game. I found it randomly, I don't

(00:58):
remember how, in a Reddit comment thread.
I watched the trailer, which just showed a number of scenes
from the prologue and I was like, this game looks really
cool and not to spoil too much of my the rest of my opinion,
but the rest of the game was also pretty cool.

(01:20):
And so the we don't have to spend too long on this intro
topic that I wrote. But what I wrote down the
question I wanted to ask you guys, what would your bio
resonance shape your environmentto be like if you were as
powerful as Ariad? So I spent a lot of time
thinking about answers to questions that were not this and
I sort of forgot about it until now.

(01:40):
So what I'm going to say is my bio resonant reality would just
be an infinite dark drive in theater with every imaginable
horror movie playing on every screen at the same time and a
really badass concession stand. Badass concession stand is a

(02:03):
good good aspect of that. Yeah, probably an arcade too,
with a bunch of pinball machines.
I'm basically just describing the drive in that Mary and I go
to. Is it like the shitty movie
theater arcade or is it like a is it going to be like a
full-fledged arcade? Oh, it's got to be full-fledged.
Like if I'm going to be like a reality warping dreamer, then

(02:25):
I'm not. I'm not.
I'm not going to spare any expense.
That's crazy. I'm curious for Ben, how many
massage chairs would be in your reality?
I just need the one. It would just be one room with a
massage chair. Yeah, exactly.

(02:46):
What about you, Jordan? I think it'd be the like a
silksong rule 34 repository website so we can get everybody
in like horny purgatory king. God.
My eternal hell. Your.
Your reality is my hell. Thank you.
I mean, that's the point. Can it just be like a bunch of
like tiled like Hornet butt cheeks in the sky box?

(03:09):
I'm in the B rule for sure. God damn.
Fucking demonetized already. I'm not going to make.
I'm not going to make my 3 pennies.
Basically just think of it like the nowhere where there's like
the the boxes in the background,like the nine boxes.
And then instead of that it's just all Hornets butt cheeks.

(03:29):
I'll I'll I'll Photoshop it later.
OK. I appreciate that.
The caged thing would just be fucking, I don't know, Lace's
asses. Conglomerated.
I don't know. I mean why discriminate?
We can just have like an alternating tile of Hornet and
Hornet ass lace thickness just on and on out of New Infinity.

(03:53):
I think that my reality would bepretty similar to the fleshy
parts of Nowhere, except it moreclosely resembles AGI track and
there's probably some compacted poop there at the end.
The hell I do not want to go to your bio resonant cascade.
The the problem is, even if I was as powerful as Ariana, I

(04:15):
don't think that I would have much control over it on account
of the brain. I mean, you just have to imagine
whatever you're like repressed, like traumas that you don't want
to deal with are and that's going to be what your bio
resonant paradise is going to be.
And that's why it would just be a fleshy GI tract.
That sounds more like it's at the front of your conscious mind

(04:38):
because you can't poop. That's true.
It is. Pooping is always on my mind.
It's important. All right, let's just jump into.
I don't know where we want to start.
Who's got some hot takes that want to start with?
This game was fucking crazy. I thought this game was great.

(04:59):
I'm gonna pop off on this fucking game if you like me and
the whiplash will be biblical. There are things I liked about
this game, but I think the primary thing about this game,
at least to me, was the story. So how do I feel about the story
to signal this? Where's the payoff?
Like, can you please put the payoff in the fucking bag?

(05:22):
I don't think that's an unreasonable ask to ask for a
piece of entertainment media because it's supposed to like
entertain, not have prerequisitecourse.
We're just like an understand the story at a baseline level
with the level of commitment that the games ask of me just to
understand and appreciate it. The more badass that payoff
needs to be in order for me to not be pissed off at the end of
it. And the problem with Signals is

(05:42):
not that the payoff is bad. The payoff doesn't fucking
exist. I could tell right away after
watching the ending that even ifI watch an 8 hour video about
the story and comb through a bunch of wiki articles, there's
a literal 0% chance that that would magically make me be like
oh I love the story now. Nah, that's not going to happen.
I know that because of the ending itself where literally
nothing happens that makes me feel anything at all.

(06:04):
That's why I didn't bother doingthe homework that the game
assigned to me. The endings to other games like
Plainscape Tournament and both nears were cool as fuck and just
the act of playing the game alone let me enjoy them.
Games like that I'll watch multiple our retrospectives on
because the characters in eventsand though both those games were
cool as fuck and made me want tolearn everything about them,

(06:25):
Signalis does not even come close to listening that kind of
response from me because I'm like playing scape an ear.
There was no cool shit happeningSignal this.
The visuals were cool as fuck but what the visuals were
depicting were not cool. They were just confusing and I
felt nothing watching them. I don't care at all about the
white noise drama of these characters because I can't even
remember their fucking names. Like whenever I saw a character

(06:47):
appear on the screen, like all the way up to the very end of
the game, I'd be like, whose bitch is this?
Like it's going to be real hard for me to get.
I'm not going to like care abouta character when my reaction to
seeing them on the screen is like, which bitch is this again?
That only had three lines of dialogue in the whole fucking
game. They all work the same and
that's it. That's that's it.
That's just the pop off. Oh shit, that's fucking based.

(07:11):
Not what I expected. I feel the complete and polar
opposite that's I'm. Sure, all you guys do, but this
is just from this is I'm just being the mole person
representative and that's just how I reacted to the game.
Yeah, this is giving me real like Expedition 33 analogs.
Just to set the context, which ending did you get?

(07:33):
I didn't even know there was more than one.
I don't even care that there's before I just got whichever 1
is. One of the characters just
crawls up to a knife ice bath and dies.
We all got memory. OK, wait.
OK, cool. Yeah, there's four different
endings, and really only one of them is like, I struggle to call

(07:55):
it a happy ending, but that's probably the closest thing to a
happy ending. Yeah, but I don't need a happy
ending to be happy, I just need it to be satisfying, like
playing skate tournament in bothnears.
None of those endings I would define as happy, but they were
badass. Well, sure, I guess.
I guess I do more mean like satisfying more so than happy

(08:15):
because it's not happy like the one I'm thinking of.
You literally choke Arianne to death but it.
That wouldn't make me happy either 'cause I wouldn't.
Even rinse the loop. Like all these characters prone
screen I don't even remember whothey are like literally at all.
I mean, that's a hard one 'causeI think the game does a really
good job of characterizing all of them, like very well.

(08:38):
But you do have to like go through the pains of like
reading every document and transcript and all that shit.
Yeah. And I did.
I, I wouldn't say that I, like sat there and tried to really,
really understand them, but I looked at every single one of
them and like, the shit was justso dry.
And I felt like, I mean, it was intentional that they were

(09:00):
written that way. But like, if you show me like
scientific papers in real life, I don't want to read them
either. So I don't want to read them in
the game. Well, let me let me kind of echo
something that I think is in what you're saying, because I I
did love this game, like a lot. And I'm gonna do a lot of love
for this game during this talk, I'm sure.
But there was one level of disappointment that I think I

(09:23):
had. And I remember distinctly
feeling it in, I guess you wouldcall it Act 3 when you're in rot
front and you're doing the tarotcard puzzle.
I had this thought when I first got to the tarot table that I
was going to have to like, display some level of
understanding of each of the planets and what's going on at

(09:44):
each of them, and like, kind of understand what's going on in
order to actually solve that puzzle.
And then I was a little disappointed when all the
answers to it were literally just on the diary, right?
Next to that. Table and it if it's not clear
how I'm echoing that in that sense of what you're saying,
Ben, I feel like this game, eventhough it has a painstakingly

(10:08):
beautiful narrative, visuals, etcetera that all come together
really nicely, it never really asks you to understand any of it
before the ending just happened.Yeah, I think that's pretty much
what I experienced. So I, I guess I take a different
approach to that 'cause I, I think that the ending makes

(10:31):
sense for what the game is, but you do absolutely, positively
have to take like a very academic, fucking magnifying
glass approach to the narrative in order to like, I guess get
that. Yeah, for sure.
And I feel like that's what the developers expected of their

(10:52):
target audience. The problem is I'm not in that
target audience and I don't think they should change the
game for just me. That would just make the game
worse for everyone that loves itlike you guys.
But whatever they made, I don't fucking like it.
Yeah, like, I, I think there's areason that there's so much
illusion and reference and so onto like works of art and works

(11:14):
of literature and like, you know, scientific papers and well
known scientists and all this shit.
Because like this game very muchto me felt like I was reading
like fucking Brothers Karamazov or something.
Like I really had to, I, I didn't quite do this as I was
playing, but more so like as I was doing some research after

(11:35):
the fact of like feeling like I really needed to focus to
understand everything that I don't get outside of areas like
great works of art. So I have like a whole long
diatribe for what I think this game was supposed to be like
almost from the word jump, whichis that this game is literally

(11:55):
just a distillation of union psychology in a lot of ways.
Like I said, I have this whole big thing that I'll read at some
point here. And I think for me, once I
realized that right away, because Chapter 1 is literally
called synchronicity, my brain was just in that space where a

(12:16):
lot of like the illusion and allegory was a lot easier to fit
together just because I could tell like Bam right away what
the game was trying to do. Which made it a lot easier to
like backfill some of the like metaphor and like especially
insofar as like visual metaphor is concerned with the game.
Whereas I think if like, you're not a homo who reads stupid shit

(12:41):
like that for fun and you're just going through it and it's
just this like confusing abstract mess, then yeah, I can
definitely see where it would get lost in the shuffle.
Yeah, for sure, 'cause like if Ihad already internalized
knowledge of young Giggin psychology, I would have like
picked up on that. But I didn't.
So I just ran like the way that I always do.

(13:04):
I just ran face first in the game, but just taking everything
at face value. And if you do that in this game,
you just going to get fucking nothing out of it.
Yeah, so this is this is interesting.
So this we can just talk about this shit now because it segues
perfectly in like I did expect all four of us to like the

(13:26):
narrative of this game. So I'm actually glad that Ben
doesn't. And so for the so so Ben is
consistent on this, which makes sense to me.
So I guess the question that I want to pose to you, Jordan and
you Seth is again, my, my, my vibe here is that you guys do
like the game. I mean, Jordan hasn't opened his
mouth to express one way or the other, but my guess is that he

(13:48):
does. And So what is like the
differentiator in this game or like the canvas that this game
gives you to like basically shove in front of your face and
say, figured out that you guys liked about this versus the
games that we absolutely said wedid not like, IE Edith Finch, IE

(14:09):
Hello Charlotte, at least for you guys.
I fucking love that game. But like, what's the difference
between this game and those games?
And why did it work here versus the other ones?
I I, sorry, I just think this game the like, the easiest way
to boil that down is like this game is just like a little more
interesting and like most thingsare there.
And then you just kind of have to, you can like fill in the

(14:31):
blanks yourself with like theories of what's going on.
But like clearly they wrote the game with like a certain thing
in mind, but then they just kindof don't tell you everything.
I think it really just comes down to a thing of like interest
in the amount of details that they give you.
I think for me, and this, this might give away some aspect of
my score, but that's fine to compare this to a game like

(14:55):
Outer Wilds. Outer Wilds is like, if you're
just going in and you know nothing about it and you're just
kind of, you know, stuck in thistime loop and you're running
around and exploring and oh, supernova, OK, cool.
And then you like log off, then it's going to be a really bad
experience. And I think that Sigdalis and
Outer Wilds have at least one thing in common, and that is

(15:19):
that you have to piece everything together.
And not only that, but everything like does have an
answer. It might not be a concrete
answer, but there are many functional interpretations that
you could tell the developers had in mind.
The difference between this gameand Outer Wilds is the Outer
Wilds is very concrete in what is trying to tell.

(15:41):
Signalis is a bit more open because things are by definition
for this game's entire setting is that everything is extremely
abstract. But after like reading up on
everything and like checking myself on the lore, I feel like
this game is telling a very cohesive story.

(16:01):
Like a very, very, very cohesiveand tied together in very
thematic ways that what have I said in every episode so far, I
like when they go with an idea and they stick with it.
And I felt that through every pore of this game, they had an
idea and they stayed true to that vision.
I think throughout, with maybe some exceptions in the gameplay

(16:22):
that I'm sure we'll talk about. But I would say that's the big
difference in my opinion, of this game versus some of the
older games we've talked about is this game is consistent from
beginning to end with no hesitation.
Yeah, and that's interesting forme.
Do you have anything you want tochime in with there, Ben?
I know that the question doesn'treally apply to you since you

(16:43):
just fucking hated it all, whichmakes you.
Consistent there. I mean, there are a few things I
liked about the game, emphasis on few.
The only thing I can really say that is that I think I enjoyed
games like Hello Charlotte and especially something like 1000 X
Resist like a billion times morethan the story of this game.

(17:03):
Yeah, why? Because like, I mean, I guess
1000 X resists is maybe the, I don't know if it's like directly
comparable, but there are some like things that are similar.
But like I guess the way I thinkabout it is like the proportion
of of or the ratio of like deep philosophical intellectual shit
versus mole people shit. Like just emotional beats that

(17:24):
people can easily resonate with.So if we like look at the ratios
of those two things with like 1000 X resist, the ratio would
be like 6-4 or maybe 7 three. Whereas the ratio for signals
IS100 straight up. And that's why I just, I can't
get attached or anchored to anything in this game.

(17:46):
Was there not a single moment where you like had a reaction in
that one? Maybe like the the lesbian
scene, but not really, no. So that's interesting for me
'cause I felt like from the verybeginning, like a sort of
emotional attachment to at leastElster, 'cause even though you
don't necessarily know who she is, like all of the theories I

(18:08):
had running through my head about who the replicas were, or
excuse me, not the replicas, butthe Gestalts had me like very
intrigued. So it might not be like an
emotional like I want this person to succeed on their
hero's journey quest as much as it was like an emotional
response as far as like the underlying intrigue was

(18:30):
concerned, if that makes sense. Well you just saying Elster just
reminding me something else. I didn't even know what her name
was until more than halfway through the game and I think it
would have served the story better out.
I don't know if like she just talked more even just to herself
like monologues just so I can see the subtitles with her name
Bren on it and be able to remember the main character's
fucking name. I.

(18:51):
Don't know, they tell you her name a lot of times.
Dude. I think that one's on you.
I disagree entirely. And Aryan.
I had no idea that was her name at all until after I beat the
game. I looked up, it's like which
who's? What's the white haired bitch's
name? I had to look it up because
like, I just can't with these characters in this whole game.
Well, I think also like to kind of elucidate what Ben is saying,

(19:12):
Thomas, we were talking in our Discord chat earlier about like
how many different variants of Elser do you play in that game
or in this game? And I think that's part of what
is leading to that confusion is you never really know if you're
playing the same character for each chapter.
I think it's. Pretty self-evident, like when

(19:33):
you're playing the same one, it can be tricky to figure out when
the switch is 'cause I think at some point there's a switch.
I think you play two different Elsters and finding where that
point is is a little tricky. But I don't know.
I yeah, I don't know. I feel like the game like spams,
like the word Elster in your face an awful lot.

(19:56):
In cutscenes. Even it'll say like Elster 252.
I think the reason why I like. The story of this game a lot is
because it's the opposite of a Marvel movie.
And what a Marvel movie. Make sure no one misses it.
This game says, hey, if you wantit, you got it, and if you
don't, you don't like it. Doesn't try to throw anything in
your face. Yeah, I'm the.
Other side of that coin, if it was like a Marvel movie, I would

(20:17):
like the story a lot more. Yeah, I would have fucking.
Hated it I think in a. Lot of.
Games and media that I like, like I'm not like the smartest
person in the world. Like I did not have a decent
even, I did not even have a decent grasp of understanding of
this game when I beat it. I could just tell that it was
being presented in a loving way and that they like had something
going there. But I really didn't understand

(20:39):
all that much. But if there's anything
consistent in like, media that Ilike, I just like being
challenged, whether it's like, you know, the open canvas of
Outer Wilds or it's like mechanical challenges like in
World of Warcraft or like literature that I've read like
Brothers Karamazov or, or Dostoyevsky generally.
And I felt like this game very much, I don't have to say it.

(21:02):
I think this game seeks to challenge you, I think.
And I like yeah, like for. Me, I I value a certain degree
of like independent thought and like independent conclusions in
a lot of ways like like that's abig reason why I didn't want to
watch any videos. I I didn't even open the fucking
wiki for this game. Like every all of my opinions

(21:25):
about the narrative of this gameare going to be raw dog straight
from my own brain outside of whatever we may have talked
about in the discord channel andlike.
That's why I like games like this, because it really.
Forces. Me to unravel a puzzle.

(21:46):
And God knows I am a fucking puzzle gamer, puzzle minded,
puzzle coded fucking goober top to bottom.
And so with a game like this where there's so many like
references to outside literatureand outside movies and other
games and like all this other shit, and it layers it kind of

(22:10):
underneath these academic concepts.
Like to me, I've just fucking love that shit because I just
love trying to unravel that puzzle and figure out, OK, what
is this game trying to say? And I try to figure out what
something like this is trying tosay before I figure out like
what it's about, right, 'cause Ifeel like if you're trying to,
if, if you figure out what a game is trying to say, it makes

(22:31):
it easier to figure out what it's about.
Like you can retrofit a lot easier.
And so with a game like this, it's just way more fun to me to
just try and again solve that puzzle on my own.
Like it's it's 80% of what I enjoy about a game like this is
just trying to figure it out on my own.
Well, I someone. That guides like every puzzle

(22:52):
and every game. I don't like the fact that the
story is also a fucking puzzle. Yeah, I can.
That. That like goes back to the issue
I was saying originally though, is I feel like this game would
have been better if there was a puzzle that asks you to
understand the narrative or or like something where you know
it. It's testing you on your
understanding of the game. Like, because even for someone

(23:15):
like me or Ben that might use a guide every now and then or for
the entire game, sometimes even if we have to look up the
answers to a puzzle that is showing our understanding, we're
still gaining understanding by virtue of looking up.
Looking it up. Yeah.
I. Actually agree with that.
Yeah, I mean, I I think my one of my biggest criticisms with

(23:36):
the game is that the puzzles aretoo dumb.
Like I wish that it was like true La Milano shit of like you
had to take notes of something that happened the first time and
then after you get to the nowhere, if you didn't take a
note of it then you're just fucked or something like that.
Like I wish it was a long or go fuck yourself they like.
They. Had the idea, like it was there,
like I remember so distinctly, Igot to the IT was a room in Act
3 where it showed the chalkboardwith Paraidola on it.

(23:57):
And that just tells you the answer to the safe that is in
that room. Like why couldn't that
chalkboard have just been in a different room?
It would have been perfect, Yeah.
I agree. I think like kind of
holistically, the game did a pretty good job with the
puzzles. I thought like for the most
part, I think like there's a, there's way too many fucking go

(24:21):
here, get this key, run back, dothis that I think the game sort
of treats as puzzles, which obviously aren't, they're just
annoying fetch quests. But like when the game does ask
you to use your brain, I feel like it did it pretty well.
I don't. I don't know if it needed to
pile on any more. Like obtuse shit into what is

(24:41):
already a pretty obtuse game. I mean, I would have liked it
more. I think I would have too.
But I think that I would have disliked some of the other
aspects that I disliked about the game already more like some
of the combat in the game would have been way worse if you were
like constantly running around between the room, you know?
Yeah, that's fucking true. Actually, if you had to run

(25:02):
around like this, was La Mulana just like, clueless trying to
figure shit out, and that would have been really frustrating.
Yeah, you probably like have. To change that, which I imagine
that they probably would have ifthey wanted to do that, but they
didn't want to do that. But yeah, yeah, and I'll.
Never argue. Against making puzzles more
obtuse. I fucking like.
I mean I obviously love that shit, but I can I can see why

(25:24):
they didn't go that angle with this game.
The coolest part? Of obtuse puzzles is the
artifact ending if you knew whatthat is, Tom, I don't know the.
Names I. Just watched a video that showed
me all four videos but it didn'tsay what the names of them were.
The artifact is the. Secret one that you can only do
on the you can only do on a second run.
And it's like the most confusingone it's the one where you put

(25:45):
the Lily on a pedestal and it zooms out and there's six dead
elsters and there's that weird artifact in the middle of it
like a grave. Oh yeah, the.
One where you like become God basically.
I don't know that that. That ending eludes me as to what
the fuck's going on, really. I assumed.
The way that I read into it is that like essentially you are
becoming the King in yellow. I think that's at least the

(26:07):
interpretation I applied to it anyway.
Something with the. Artifacts and there's like a
thing in the King of Yellow where they paint a flower with
like some Opal shit and then it becomes something like the
artifact has something to do with that.
I think the best. Ending.
Supposed to be the most. Resolved ending is like probably
the toughest ending to get with besides artifacts because

(26:30):
artifact is a really weird ending, but promise ending is an
ending where like you choke her out, but you need to be super
aggressive in your playthrough and like you're basically not
going to get that on a first runthrough.
But I think if somehow Ben did get that, I think he would like
it a little bit better because it's a lot more resolved, the
memory ending. And how would that make?
Me like the game more. I didn't.
Say it. That's landing.
Well, I mean, you would like thegame more.

(26:51):
I don't know if you would if it would make you like the game,
but it's a more resolved ending if you didn't.
Engage with the characters or the narrative on any level that
made you appreciate it, up to the ending.
I don't think there is an endingthat would change what I'm
saying. I think.
If there's anything it's promised because promise is
like, you would at least understand that.
Like you remember the promise when you get there.

(27:11):
Ariana isn't like, who are you? Like, it would be like, oh, hey,
what's up? And then like, you fucking
killer. And it's like an emotional
thing. Like I think he would like it
more. I don't think he would like the
game. Yeah, no, I, I.
Have to see. It just to make.
Sure, but I like just My gut feeling is that it wouldn't
change anything for me, but maybe.
Yeah, I got. The.
Promise ending and like like I said, I didn't have a great

(27:33):
understanding when I beat the game, but it did give that level
of finality that you're describing.
Like even if I didn't understandall the specifics, I felt like I
was being called there to do something.
And it's kind of a reveal that Iwas called there to kill her
because of like some of the notes that you see leading up to
it where she just wanted to die and everything.

(27:54):
Like, even if you don't have a full understanding, you know
that she's kind of the source ofeverything, you know?
And you know that there's a promise.
And you know that you're fulfilling the promise versus
when you get there, the memory ending and you didn't like fully
synchronize with the original Elstra unit.
So then that way like you're just like, I don't know why I'm
here. Aryan's like, I don't know who
you are. And then you're like, I'm just
going to sleep here. Like it doesn't make any sense.

(28:15):
And it doesn't. It's not supposed to give you a
feeling of resolution, because that's a failure state ending.
You want to make me? Play a game for 10 hours and get
a failure ending and if I want to get another ending I have to
play the game again. If it doesn't resonate with.
You, it doesn't resonate with you.
Yeah, I. Mean there's the.
The the endings had no shot for you so.

(28:37):
Yeah, I think it's the kind. Of thing where like if you're in
love with the game, you might because it's like a fairly short
experience, it's like only 8 hours on a first playthrough.
And so like, if you're really interested in the game and you
know, by definition there's a bit little bit of like a time
loop situation going on, or at least an implied 1, replaying
through the game means you're going to pick up on a lot of

(28:58):
stuff that you missed the first time through and.
That does make me kind. Of glad that there's multiple
endings in that way, even if like I personally probably
wouldn't do it. The one thing I do think this
game really needed though is something to auto translate all
of the languages. Just as I don't even know if
it's like an accessibility thing, but like if you beat the
game once and I played through it a second time, just let me

(29:20):
read that shit. Don't make me have to have a
YouTube video pulled up so I canactually see what it's saying.
Yeah, I agree with that. I, I was going to say, I mean, I
like it the first time, but yeah, if you replay it I would
mind some like subtitles or something.
How did you guys? Feel about the several different
languages that were used. What is it?
Chinese, German and English. Are those the three?

(29:43):
Yeah, I think. So if they were.
Subtitled. I would have liked it a lot
more. I didn't really.
Understand the purpose of it necessarily like I at least like
insofar of my understanding of the games, like story and
themes. I don't really know what it
added, especially the the Chinese part of it, like the

(30:06):
German OK maybe 'cause like the different like World War 2
signals and the magpie and and all that stuff like I can get
German contributing, but the Chinese shit just seemed like it
was a little egregious. I.
Think thematically, what it's doing is it's kind of doing a
lot of what Near and Automata did in the sense of like the

(30:31):
Tower Babel situation of not being able to understand each
other. Because there's the one note
that says something to the effect of like a it's like from
the Usen nation. And it says something to the
effect of a perfect language creates a perfect society.
So it's either the use of three languages in this game is either
implying an untruth to that, or it's implying that like what's

(30:54):
going on right now is particularly bad.
No one can understand each other.
It there is confusion. And I think it also helps add to
the broader abstractedness of like, you never really feel like
you're supposed to be where you're at because you're in
someone else's dream. Yeah, that is interesting.
Because like, the game definitely does have a lot of

(31:15):
like, like, I guess things to say about.
Like. Cultural fragmentation and
oppression to a degree. So I can see why including
multiple languages could at least help with that.
But I think for that to really have landed they should have

(31:37):
probably leaned a little more into like the Usan Empire
conflict stuff that was going on.
But. But what you're saying makes
sense. I struggle to.
Believe it's anything more than trying to obfuscate things
behind like not understanding. I think it's just trying there
to make you like want to look atfor it later game like the game

(32:01):
is. The idea is that it's like
government footage that you're watching or something right,
that you're watching through like the cameras that are
recording Elster as you're running around.
And like there could be like a way that you could think of like
different governments give you different languages through
that, but like none of that's portrayed at all.
And that would just be like super fringe theory shit.
So I think it's kind of just trying to make things more
confusing. I mean I I think 1.

(32:21):
Of the big things is that it's all like very diegetic, like
this is the the setting that they have maybe outside of
Chinese, kind of like Thomas wassaying, like obviously all the
use of the German language is very intentional for the setting
that they're in. But again, yeah, I just go back
to I, I think it's, it's just adding to that dreamlike quality

(32:42):
of like you have something in front of you but you can't read
it. You can't understand it.
Like you might have to interpreta dream.
Rather you have to look at everything surrounding the text
that you can't read to try and understand what it's saying.
Yeah. That's an interesting thought.
I think it lies somewhere like in the middle of what both of
you guys are saying. And I also think that there's

(33:03):
probably a factor of the people that made this game obviously
loved Evangelion and Ghost in the Shell, and they just wanted
to put some fucking kanji in there.
I know it's Chinese but I could read some of it so.
I think it's also cooler. To tile die in the screen in
kanji than it is to just write the word die.

(33:23):
Yeah, true. Or to quote.
The Book of. Revelations and do it in German
instead of English. I think things like that just
kind of add like a cool factor to people who reach out and
figure it out. Yeah, I like the I.
Like the German, I think the German inclusion was was pretty
great actually. I think it's just the.
Chinese part of it that sort of like like tipped the scales into
something that was just like, did you really have to do that?

(33:47):
Did you really need three? Yeah, I think it was just to.
Make sure that like, if like, let's say you're German and
you're playing the game, there'sstill things they could
obfuscate behind the Chinese language, right?
Because who the fuck speaks English, German and Chinese?
Yeah, fair enough. Let's talk about some of the.
Gameplay shit so how did you guys feel about the inventory
Let's let's kick off kick it offthere turn on the.

(34:09):
Ovens. I just hate.
The way that they handled inventory management or I guess
encumbrance, whatever which way you wanted to call it, the way
they, I'm not like against encumbrance or inventory
management, but there's like different ways to do it and the
way they did it did not appeal to me like the ways that I like

(34:31):
it or like. Primarily it's like.
Dark Souls where you have the Estes flask, and I know it's
kind of weird to think of that as encumbrance, but it it pretty
much is. It's just not really weight
that's being measured, but just the amount of resources that you
can expend before you get to a point where you can replenish
it. Something that's a little more

(34:52):
analogous to this game. This maybe something like the
way that CRPS do it, where you have a carry weight based on
your strength. And I like that a little bit
less than the Dark Souls 1, but I still like it because it gives
like a little bit of choice and consequence to your character
build where like the amount of your strength actually dictates

(35:13):
like how you play the rest of the game.
So even though I don't like it because it's still leans into
the negative aspects of inventory management where you
have to stop gameplay to go intoa menu, that's the part that I
hate about the most. I still like that there is like
some choice and consequence in of your character build is

(35:33):
relevant, whereas in this game they just chose like the worst
of every possible world. And I don't know, maybe we
should talk about how you guys feel about it instead.
Oh, let me let. Me put it this way, I feel like
they were I I I don't quite knowwhat the goal was exactly by

(35:54):
having the inventory system thisway, but my vibe and I can't I'm
going to have a hard time explaining this.
My vibe is that they were successful in whatever their
goal was with the inventory system.
I'll I'll say that much, but what I might ask you guys later
after this is. Like why is the?
Inventory system even in this game, what does it add?
It's just to make. It like Resident Evil?

(36:15):
I bet that's the only thing I could think of.
Yeah. For.
Sure, basically. What I mean is they can eat my
shit. I think is it just?
Homage, is that it? I mean, I don't know if what.
Else is there. I mean, it's definitely.
Just lifting because I mean Resident Evil has the exact same
mechanic right? Like carbon copied like even
down to the number of slots I think.

(36:37):
Yeah, but like. You're constructing a game.
You don't have to copy a different game.
Like, why is it? Yeah, but they do that's.
Yeah, hence. Why?
I'm saying it's homage I. Think.
For me anyway, I think the inventory system would have
worked if they had actually gonedown to like 4.

(36:58):
Like maybe? Even 3 just to be contrarian
inventory slots, but made it so that none of the key items that
you have to carry around actually contribute to that
number. Because the inventory system
never really bothered me too much.
I'll say there are like times where I was frustrated with it,

(37:20):
but most of those times were when the game was asking me to
go slot like 6 keys into a door and it's like well what the fuck
I have 6 inventory slots and each one of these keys takes up
one. Like why am I having to fucking
ferry back and forth between thesave rooms?
Like this is just fucking stupid.
So it definitely doesn't work theirs.

(37:42):
Which is why I say if they had just gone down a number of
inventory slots and made it so that all of the keys and quest
items and key items or whatever did not contribute to that
number. But you still have like an even
more limited inventory for the purpose of what they're trying
to do, which is build tension through scarcity.
Which is like the whole fucking philosophy of this game's

(38:03):
gameplay. I think it would have worked a
lot better for me in every single imaginable way, to be
honest. I agree.
I think we already discussed that in Discord, but yeah,
that's basically the way I wouldsee it too, where you just
basically only use the inventoryslots for the resource
management and not for puzzle solving.

(38:26):
Yeah, I think. Like I said this in Discord,
like I think any game where a key card is the same size in
your inventory as a shotgun is just like that, ain't it?
Like what are you doing? And in a game as Diegetic is
this one, it adds additional layers of confusion for me
because like, take a game like Automata, which you know, this

(38:49):
game came out after Automata didn't by like a several years,
right? And like it's a similar
situation. You're playing a Cyborg and you
have like your program limit in that game that changes based on
like the power and type of equipment quote UN quote that
you're putting on. And to just.
Have that to have that comparison in my mind as I was

(39:11):
playing this game. I I.
Was just. Confused by the decision.
It's so weird. In fact.
I just had a Tom Director's Cut idea while I was just sitting
here that I have not put any thought into.
But I feel like they could have just totally axed the entire
inventory system and just had itto where you could have a side

(39:34):
arm like the pistol, pistol or the revolver.
And then like a primary gun likethe shotgun or the rifle or
whatever. And then one like equipment
slot, kind of like how they already have it, where you could
have like your auto injector, your stun prod or whatever and
then just like fuck off with therest of the inventory maybe.

(39:55):
Give you like a. Cap of how many like repair kits
you could hold on to or whatever.
And yeah, like, that's just. Yeah, pretty.
Much. And then just like have all the
key items go into a fucking fucking what the hell is it
called? A Gucci bag across your waist or
whatever. Yeah, that would be nice and.

(40:16):
That way, like you still have the scarcity because you can
only have one of each type of weapon and you find a new one,
you have to drop the old one. Yeah, and you're?
Still like ammo limited, which is like the the the thing that
makes you switch weapons in and out in the first place is like
whatever you like want to expendthe ammo for.

(40:37):
I mean I. Wouldn't really change anything
that feels like they had like kind of a full vision.
Like I don't think it's fun, butat the same time like, I don't
know, like it's fine. I don't I don't think the game.
I think the game would be like worse if it was like a walking
simulator. But I don't think the.
Limited inventory is particularly great.
I don't know. I think also it's it's like old
game pill to kind of like Silksong laws where it's just
using old mechanics and we're not patient enough gamers

(41:00):
anymore in 2025 to appreciate things like that.
So I don't know, I mean. I.
Don't think that what we were describing would make it a
fucking walking SIM. It would cut down on the amount
that I have to just do tedious nonsense, which is like.
Put three things in. A crate.
Put 3 tarot cards in my inventory, Run to the table, put

(41:21):
3 tarot cards on. Run back to the save room, put 3
tarot cards in my inventory, put3 tarot cards onto the table,
run back, fill out my inventory with the shit that I want, and
then go back and do the puzzle. Like that's that's the thing
that I'm trying to get rid of. Anything else outside of that I
don't really care about, but it's that specific instance
which happens 3 or 4 times in the game, which is where I

(41:43):
really felt the burn of how stupid the inventory system was
and you know. That the developers knew it was
a problem because they put thoselike those, those would have
liked the storage chest in thosespecific spots for that reason.
So they they knew that it was bad, but they just, that was
their solution. And it kind of burns me like.
Here's here's my thing with it is like I, I really didn't love

(42:07):
it. Kind of like sesh said, like
it's not, it's not doing the game any favors for me, I don't
think. But as I was like thoughtful
about it as I was playing, I felt like I was rewarded for
doing what it felt like they were asking me to do.
Like, you know, don't just fill all of my slots with weapons.

(42:27):
Just go with like like maybe 3 weapons and maybe some ammo or
something or like a consumable or just like be more willing to
use consumables 'cause I need tolike save the space in my
inventory anyway. And I, I, I did feel rewarded
for that, even if it wasn't likethe greatest feeling in the
world. I felt like I could play around

(42:48):
the system they had in a way that mitigated most of the
negative side effects. I I don't know if you guys will
agree with that, but that was a feeling I had while I was
playing. I will say that the one.
Thing that the inventory system does do is like really dissuade
me from like megalixer syndrome where like I feel like I
actively want to use my healing items just to get them the fuck

(43:09):
out of my inventory. Yeah, it's like the.
Opposite of yeah, exactly what you said, the megalixer
syndrome. Like I didn't need to hoard
shit. I'm just like, I have my
consumable sun rods and I'm justtossing that shit out like candy
because the game gives me a lot of them and I need inventory
space, so if I may as well. I'm curious your.
Guys's opinions on the stealth system, maybe as it relates to

(43:35):
inventory, but just specificallyon the stealth mechanics because
I haven't played any Metal Gear games to be clear.
I haven't played a lot of stealth.
Games in general. Like, I haven't played Splinter
Cell, but this might be one of my favorite applications of
stealth in a game for diegetic purposes ever.
I'm curious your guys's thoughts.
On that. I I knew.

(43:56):
That I knew that the system existed 'cause I googled it, but
by the time that I learned aboutthe soul system, I had already
learned about the debug developer console and I just
turned the game the Call of Duty.
But the idea of the soul system is pretty cool, where if the
enemies are facing away from youand you don't run, you could
just like walk past them, right?Is that what it is the the

(44:17):
feeling? I had that adds to the diegesis.
Is that like the, the more you act like them, the less likely
they are to realize that it's you.
So obviously don't flash a lighton them.
They don't have lights. If you run, they're going to
notice you because they don't run unless they're aggro and
like don't get close to them. Otherwise they'll like see you
or whatever. And it all makes sense because

(44:39):
like you are them, you're all androids or whatever.
And I, I don't feel like that's the strongest argument, but
again, it's a feeling I had while playing.
I feel like it was adding to thediegetics where I kind of needed
to act like them and be with them so.
Even though I interacted with itvery little.
I'd also want to add to the diegesis where like.
If you walk. Into a room and there's enemies

(45:02):
in there, you'll notice that they don't like immediately
aggro you if they're facing awayfrom you.
And then that kind of like maybepercolates a thought in your
mind that maybe you can do the stealth thing and just like
figure it out on your own. So that was conceptually pretty
cool. I think I would like it.
More if it was more like Metal Gear Solid where you had the

(45:22):
stealth because if you didn't then you got fucking hoarded or
something. Because in this game, kind of
like Ben and Tom said, like you don't have to interact with that
system at all. You can just run by things and
it's more effective and less annoying because it doesn't
waste your time. Yeah, honestly.
Like I, I never even thought fora second about the like movement

(45:42):
in this game is being stealth because most of the time I was
moving around, I was just holding the Sprint button down
the entire time and just runningpast them because they're not
hard to Juke. I mean did.
You guys even do that and that like like I'm thinking of that
one room in nowhere where there's the Mina out of nowhere
and there's like fucking 5 enemies in there.
It's one of the rooms with the dolls.

(46:03):
Like you can just walk around topick up basically every
consumable in that area and you won't aggre them.
Yeah, that room I. Did go slow, I will say,
although I did Sprint up to the doll and then Sprint out.
But yeah, there's a there are a couple of rooms where I think
maybe a stealthier approach would have benefited me a lot,
like the Calibri room. Calibri.

(46:26):
I don't know how to say that, but Calibri, yeah, in Act 3
where there's a bunch of bitchesin a room and the Calibri and
that room is that's that's probably the hardest room in the
game in my opinion in any way. That would have helped if I like
Chilled a little bit. Yeah, I just really like.

(46:46):
That aspect of like. You know, it's almost.
Like an Amnesia thing or like maybe some other horror games
that I can't quite think of right now where like you have to
be very, very fucking close to them and it's just like a hair
pinch away from them assaulting you.
I just really like that level oftension that the game provides,
yeah. Now.

(47:06):
That you're talking about it. I really wish it was like a
Metal Gear Solid system where ifyou got caught suddenly like all
the doors open and then you justget fucking flooded.
And then you basically got to get to a safe room where you're
going to die. Like I think.
I think that would be so, so, so, so, so much better.
You are. Kind of right in the fact that
like if I fuck up in one room I can just like exit Like Oh no I
accidentally left my flashlight on and now the entire room is

(47:26):
aggroed. OK, leave.
Wait 5 seconds. Go back in, OK.
Cool, yeah. Like even that Calibri room I
was talking about, like once I figured out that all you have to
do to deal with those is move into the room, tune into the
frequency, leave, go back in, tune into the frequency, leave,
go back, like rinse and repeat until the Calibri's dead kind of

(47:49):
eliminated a lot of the tension of like the harder rooms that do
have the Calibri's in them. So yeah, I think that the way
that you can just essentially avoid combat in this game sort
of served to its detriment. And I actually did have the
thought a couple of times while playing of like, man, if the

(48:09):
enemies followed me through thisdoor, this game would be fucking
hard. It would be mind numbingly
difficult. I.
Think that's the problem. They didn't really like lean
into difficulty on the gameplay side where they leaned into
difficulty on the narrative side.
And that's like the cool part ofthe narrative, right?
Versus like the gameplay, like they just dumped it down to like
an extreme. That's crazy.
Yeah. And and I.

(48:30):
Think it's important to recognize that I actually don't
hate the gameplay in this game. Like like even like the
inventory management stuff. To me, the inventory management,
like outside of the few instances I'm talking about
where you have to carry around abunch of shit to like plug it
into a puzzle, it pretty much just boiled down to carry around

(48:51):
2 healing items and then two weapons that I have the most
ammo for and then the ammo. And that's really all that the
inventory management was. And it was very, very simple.
And I actually by the end of thegame, I did actually really like
engaging with the combat of thisgame.
Maybe because I actually liked the last boss fight and I was

(49:12):
like kind of pissed that they waited until the end of the game
to actually include something that felt like an interesting
fight. But yeah, I actually, I actually
by the end of the game was kind of growing to the combat in the
like shooting mechanics and all that shit.
I do want to say. One thing to kind of transition
out of the inventory talk, but mention it.

(49:33):
I actually and you guys might disagree with this.
That's fine, especially Ben, youmight especially disagree with
this. I love the controls in this
game. I thought the controls in this
game made the inventory management so much better and
easy and fine. Once I like knew what I was
doing with it, like it, it all felt very very smooth to me.
You're just talking about using.That menu in general, I actually

(49:55):
did enjoy that. I just didn't enjoy the juggling
of the items. That's it.
But like everything to do with the menu was actually awesome.
I loved everything about it except needing to use the left
stick to navigate to a very important part, the module
screen That it's just a crime against game UI.
Always use the fucking D pad or arrow keys to navigate UI.

(50:19):
Don't use analog controls. It's just sorry, it's just a
sticking point for me that. That is what I was.
Curious about though. I wasn't sure if the controller
schema was any better or worse than the keyboard, but it sounds
like it was pretty good, yeah? And there was, yeah, I guess the
reason why it bothers me so muchis that there's no reason for it
to be like that because on that the module screen, they made the

(50:43):
the the D pad or the arrow keys,I assume, control the radio
frequency. But you could have just bounded
so that you can't move that radio frequency until you
activate the radio module. And then that way when the radio
module isn't activated, you can use the D pad to navigate the
menu itself. Like, it's just a fucking no
brainer. I don't know why they didn't do
it. Yeah, I played.

(51:07):
This game exclusively keyboard mouse and I don't think I ever
really had the thought that the controls are bugging me, other
than one spot which was in the same menu where you control the
radio. Having to like scroll up to find
the specific like document log that you're looking for was

(51:28):
sometimes really fucking annoying because you just had to
scroll through them like one at a time and it would sometimes
take fucking forever. Like there were a number of
times where I thought the game was going to like harken back to
act one where they give you the radio frequencies for like Star
Moon, et cetera, et cetera. And it never did after act one.
But there were a couple of timeswhere I thought it would.

(51:49):
And going in there and scrollingup to that fucking log and
trying to remember what it was called was such a pain in the
Dick. That was the only time I think
the UI really bugged me. Speaking of the.
Radio though, can I just say thehardest thing in this entire
game was getting to a specific frequency?

(52:10):
Yeah, very true. My God.
Why didn't they just let? Me type in a frequency I mean, I
guess I understand why, but comeon because.
You just be. Like scrolling past and after
you have like moved one full frequency, it starts moving by
one entire frequency every time.So if you overshoot it by one,
it's like say you're on frequency 98 and you want to get

(52:32):
to 99, it'll go up to 98.9 and then skip to 100 instead of
going to 99. That shit was impossible.
Yeah, it. Felt like a rhythm game.
I don't know. That didn't bother me at all, it
seemed pretty easy enough to do on controller.
I don't know if it's different on keyboard mouse, but I had no
problems just getting to the frequency I needed.
Yeah, I play. On controller in the same.

(52:55):
How do you guys feel? About the radio mechanics, kind
of like in general, like the waythat the game used it as like in
puzzles, in combat, in diegeticsand all kinds of different ways.
I thought it was really cool. I actually.
I I agree, I I like the radio a lot.
It's one of my favorite parts ofthe whole game, incredibly.
Unique, incredibly thematic, No notes, wouldn't change a thing.

(53:19):
It's underutilized. If anything, yeah.
I would actually agree. With that, I actually think that
like I think if they had used itin more combats outside of just
the Calibri's, I I think that there's like a lot of room to
have done it. Like it's really surprising to
me that they didn't use it in the Falky fight, for example.
Like that felt like the absoluteperfect place to use the radio a

(53:40):
little more and they didn't, which was a little surprising.
But yeah, IA 100% agree with youguys.
Like super solid idea that they executed really well.
I didn't even think. About that until just now, but I
just like brainstormed a bunch of cool ideas you could do with
that mechanic to make them kind of like really interesting, like
almost like MMO raid style fights where like you would need

(54:01):
to set a certain frequency like deactivate barriers so you could
shoot the boss. Like, you know, those barriers
that float around the boss maybe, I don't know, you would
have to deactivate them and they'd be in different positions
or you could use them for cover.So you could use a frequency to
like activate a cover. I don't know, there's just a lot
of things that would have been really cool.
I don't really fault the game for not doing that because

(54:22):
that's like a lot of scope creep, but it's just like really
cool ideas that just like appeared in my brain when you
guys mentioned it. I.
I think the. I think the issue of having it
at least in the Falky fight, maybe in others, like I kind of
felt this with the Calibri sometimes when there were other
enemies on the screen. Is that like having to pause and

(54:42):
go into the menu to change a frequency and experiencing that
thing where you overshoot it andthen try to get back to the like
actual one you're trying to do? It kind of disrupts the flow of
combat. And Falki was a good enough boss
that I'm kind of glad that it didn't get disrupted.
Yeah, I mean. I guess I just mean it sort of
generically. Like, I'm surprised that in a
game literally titled Signalis, where that radio frequency, at

(55:09):
least insofar as I can tell, plays a very core pivotal
narrative role, that it didn't like get included in that fight
at all or even like at a couple other like puzzles.
I I think that they used it inside of like the meat of the
game enough times well enough. But I think that's one point
where I'm surprised that they didn't do anything with it.

(55:31):
And maybe. If there was something.
Small, like there was just like a short little puzzle where you
had to tune into a particular frequency to wake Falkey up, and
then you fight her. Like, something like that would
have been cool. Sure.
Yeah, honestly. Like even something as simple
enough as like in one of her phases just spawning A Calibri
like would have been fine. Did you guys like?
All of the perspective shifts that this game did with the like

(55:54):
first person usages. For the most part, yeah.
I thought they. Were just they looked cool.
That's about it. Because that's really all I got.
About from those sections is just that they looked cool.
I feel like if anything. They're kind of like Thomas was
saying with the radio to me, where they feel a little
underutilized because like, theylook really good and most of the

(56:17):
puzzles involved them are reallygood.
I kind of wish there was like a little bit more like horary
stuff with them. There never really was.
So it always felt like after thelike the the one of the first
times when you're in the elevator shaft, I was actually
like really expecting like a bigspook, like something was gonna
pop out of the fucking elevator door or whatever.

(56:38):
But nothing ever does. And after like two or three
times where nothing happened with that, it felt like more of
a solace than tension. Yeah, I guess when I think.
About the first person segments,I think less about like where it
zooms in the camera and like does its best, like missed
impression or whatever. I think more about like the

(56:59):
sections on whatever that painting is called where you're
walking on the beach, where it uses it to like narrative
effect. Yeah, that's what I was talking.
About as well like those scenes,like I didn't know what the fuck
was going on, but they looked cool.
Yeah, I fucking. Loved all of those scenes.
I thought like every single one of them was like, so it was
really well written and it served as like a there was

(57:22):
always like a really thick thread connect to the narrative
every time they did it that likeeither answered questions or had
me ask new ones that were interesting.
And so I felt like they could have made them really egregious
and unnecessary, but they they used them to really, really,

(57:44):
really good effect. Yeah, I think they're cool.
I mean, I could do without them as well.
Like, I don't know, yeah, they're cool that they're there,
but if they weren't there, I wouldn't be upset by it.
Yeah, that's true too. Like they, they weren't like
super necessary like, and that'skind of why I was curious to ask
the question 'cause they don't really feel necessary.

(58:04):
Like to the point to where I don't really know what they add,
but they also don't really detract.
So it's like, I don't know. I was wondering if you guys had
any like insight that would. Make it more interesting one.
Way or the other, I guess I. Mean I.
I'm, I'm just going to go back to like kind of the thematics of

(58:26):
what I was saying where like I think they do a lot of these
weird perspective shifts in thatsense to add to that dreamlike
quality. Like I, I think that's just like
a fundamental component about dreaming where you're just,
you're, you're like literally your perspective, your
consciousness is just shifting around constantly.
And I think disorienting you in that way adds to that feeling.

(58:49):
Again, the only. Miss with them I think for me is
I just wish that they felt more like tension rather than a
relief to tension. I agree somewhat.
Because like, and I'm looking atthis question that you wrote,
which is did this game scare you?
And that would have been a nice place to have like some kind of
like pseudo horror, maybe not necessarily a jump scare, but

(59:10):
something to like kind of freak you out a little bit.
Because to answer that question as well, this game didn't scare
me literally even a single time.Like at all.
Yeah, I feel like calling. This game, a horror game, is
like almost a misnomer. Like I understand where its
roots are in survival horror, but this game was more like an

(59:31):
exercise in like sadness and melancholy than it was horror I
thought, outside of like some visual stuff.
I definitely. Agree, but it definitely also
had some go fuck yourself jump scares.
Where like the. Only the only.
Time I. Ever remember going was like the
first time an enemy gets up and attacks you because it makes a

(59:54):
loud noise? Yeah, I mean, it was.
Usually related to the loud noise, but like when you get the
flashlight for the first time. But like, there's a room that
you probably already saw that was totally pitch black and
maybe you didn't check to see with your reticle if there were
already enemies in there. But you go in there, you turn
your flashlight on, and bam, jump scare.

(01:00:14):
Oh, I definitely went in that room and shot the fuck out of
those guys. So yeah.
I'm also a pussy with jump. Scare.
So whatever, Yeah. So am I, but this game still
didn't scare me. Yeah, this game.
This game. Just didn't have any jump scares
to me. It was the thing like even like
Primo jump scare time would havebeen every time I forget the

(01:00:36):
name of the enemies, the ones that like come up out of the
floor. Like if they made some sort of
like fucking jump scary noise and came up.
Because those things sometimes would like freak me the fuck
out. But they just come up silently
and then run at you, and then I run out of the room and don't
give a shit anymore. Yeah, those ones felt.
A lot more tense than scary, which I think is fine if the

(01:00:59):
rest of the game isn't scary, you know I.
Think that's kind of what the. Game plays missing though like.
Since it's not. Scary There's this doesn't feel
like there's any stakes, like ifyou die, you just feel annoyed.
You never feel like there's never like the build up of fear
and then the release with like alaugh or like a, you know, like
a release point or anything. It just kind of feels like a

(01:01:20):
bunch of tedium built on top of itself.
Oh man, you're totally right about that.
Actually. You know the worst part about
that is when like, you aggro a room and you realize you're just
fucked, or you took like three hits and you're like, oh
whatever, I'm just going to die.And then it takes like 15
seconds for them to actually kill you.
Yeah, you, just you. Like safe load because you're
like, ah fuck, I don't want to waste this healing spray, so

(01:01:42):
instead I'm just going to load the game.
Whatever. Like, yeah.
I will say some of the. Qualities surrounding that were
improved for me when I just kindof like accepted my losses and
some of those situation. Yeah, I never.
Reloaded. So it's interesting to hear you
guys say that. Like, I felt like if the game
wanted to make scarcity like a core tenant of its design

(01:02:05):
philosophy, I was just going to abide by that.
But I mean, I'm a guy who doesn't use the developer
console in any game. So I'll just suck it up and like
get the experience that the developers wanted me to have.
And I don't know, I never reallyfelt like I was necessarily like
too restricted on anything really outside of maybe some

(01:02:27):
ammo in the beginning. I kind.
Of want to actually before we jump back in the narrative
because we might do a deep dive on that.
We'll see. Do.
You guys want to give any? Like special shout outs to any
of the art assets, like the other visuals that we haven't
talked about, the music, etcetera, etcetera, I think.
That. The music is sick, but it

(01:02:49):
doesn't use the music well enough and like emotional
moments to make it like as good as like a near or like a clear
obscure soundtrack. I don't think it was really.
Going for that either though is the thing 'cause I actually
disagree. I think where the soundtrack
like wants to like stand out in those emotional moments and like

(01:03:10):
the cutscenes and stuff, it doesa really good job.
Where it does not do a good job is inside of the actual
gameplay, where it's just kind of like ambient background noise
that I never really noticed. But like, when there's emotional
beats going on in cutscenes, I felt like a lot of the songs
were really good. I I.
Also felt pretty evoked, like all the music was very evocative

(01:03:34):
in the moments that they chose to use it.
Maybe some of the mixing made itlike a little bit quiet.
Maybe that would be a bigger criticism because I think they
do have a really good soundtrackand it's maybe just a little bit
on the quiet side. But the actual songs themselves
I think are great for the scenesthat they're describing, I
really like. The combat songs combat songs

(01:03:54):
are awesome. I think the visual.
Clutter really like distracts from like the emotional hits of
the of the soundtrack because like you're trying to like suss
out what's going on on the screen and then like the music's
playing and everything and it's just kind of like a one big like
confusion bowl that they constantly throw at you.
Is that? Detracting for you because I

(01:04:16):
actually kind of like that, yeah.
In terms of like being it, Because like I didn't, I don't
even remember what I think is the second Best Song in the
soundtrack. Cigarette Wife.
I don't even remember that playing during that scene
because you're too busy looking at the scene being like what the
fuck's going on? Yeah, but I'd like.
Like kind of what I'm trying to get at is that I think a lot of
the songs in the soundtrack, maybe except for like the, I

(01:04:37):
don't, I don't know if it's actually the title song, but
like the one with the really nice piano riff that I really
like. I, I don't think that the music,
the score is supposed to be the focal point in any of these.
I, I feel like they're adding tothe scenes and I feel like
they're successful at that, evenif, like you don't remember them
in hindsight, you know? Yeah, that's that's.

(01:04:58):
Kind of the point I was trying to make, right?
Like, I don't think comparing the soundtrack of this game to
like a Clare obscure is like even remotely fair because I
don't think the soundtrack of this game is like meant to be
the sort of like emotional anchor point that it is in games
like that. Yeah.
I mean, that's basically my exact like criticism because I

(01:05:20):
think it could be, I think that the scenes just aren't set up
for that. I think the soundtracks.
Good enough to be able to do that like ish.
It's like the high points are for sure.
Well, I mean, then you're. Turning the soundtrack into like
a completely different thing that it's not intended to be
though, and the music would be totally different.
So we're talking about like a separate reality.

(01:05:42):
I think the. Promise and Cigarette Wipe for
two songs that are like as good as anything Laurie and Tessard
made for Claire Obscure. I think those two songs are.
Really, really fucking good. And it would be like really
evocative. But I think because of all like
the confusion that they're throwing at you, they don't hit
us hard. And like when you're choking.

(01:06:02):
Out, Arianne. I don't even know if a song
plays there like that. Could be a moment, you know.
Then on the flip side. I wouldn't mind if that was just
kind of like a fucking like coldclose to the game.
Like that would be a good time to actually do something like
that. I mean, I like.
Like I. I guess part.

(01:06:22):
Of the point is that like if I think back to Claire Obscure,
there's like but I think my favorite instance of music in
that game is when you confront painted Renoir at the top of the
monolith and like the game very intentionally pauses between all
of their lines of dialogue and like the the score that plays
during that scene is very clearly built around that scene.

(01:06:45):
And I, I guess you could say that this game would be better
off if it did that with the score, but I, I, I just feel
like that's not de facto necessary for the score to be
good. Or am I putting words in your
mouth? I don't think.
It's necessary. But I do think it makes it.
It takes good music and makes itgenerational.
Like it's harder. To make like a generational song

(01:07:08):
like the one that plays when youfight painted Renoir like Goon V
Tamir, whatever it's called and or a song like like.
It because that song. Would stand on its own.
You don't need any like any likekind of scene structure or
anything like literally just thesong.
It's so good. But like they have to like I
said, really good songs like cigarette wipe is like one of
the best, like I'm about to fuckyour shit up.

(01:07:28):
Songs like you can make and thenthe promise is just like a
really good like emotional kind of like here we go, like
remembrance kind of song. And I I don't think that they
use them to the potential that they could have.
In a way that makes. Me take soundtracks and go like
generational with them. I mean, I feel.
Like it's like really unfair to 99.9999% of soundtracks to

(01:07:52):
expect them to be generational though.
Like I can appreciate like. 200.Basketball players without
having to say, well, they're notMichael Jordan, you know, but
it's a game that's. Kind of trying to be
generational with like the crazyshit that they did with the
narrative. Like it took them eight years to
make the game. And I don't think that that was
in the inventory system. You know I.

(01:08:14):
Think what I'm having. Trouble understanding that I
would like you to clarify is like you're saying the songs are
good. I think you're saying the scenes
are good so wired like where, what what could have done that
the. Scenes are good, I think that
they obscure too. I think that they focus on like
cosmic horror and confusion as like the main focus of all the

(01:08:35):
cutscenes that they made. At least I think so.
And so because of that, like themusic kind of takes a backseat
to trying to visually ingest everything that's going on
rather than just make a beautifully constructed scene.
It's like when you fight Falcon shit, it's showing you like this
God does not forgive you or whatever it says.
And then it says shit in German and then it quotes the Book of
Revelation and then it says fucking this, this scene is too

(01:08:57):
violent to show. And then it says shit in Chinese
and you're like, what the fuck? You don't you have no, your ears
aren't even on for shit like that.
Like the? Way that it sounds to me, it's
like a mental stack thing. It's just like like if you had
that one scene with like the lesbian shit, you just play like
an emotional song there. I would like something like that
because that's like an emotionalanchor.
But there was none of that in this game because there's
fucking nothing. It's just confusion.

(01:09:21):
And nothing else. I like.
I don't think that they. Really, like pulled, like the
music ties into emotion on scenes like that.
Because yeah, like Ben said withthat lesbian scene, I cannot
tell you what song played. It might be the promise.
I don't know what song plays there, but that would be a great
time to just kind of play like alike, have like nice strings
going while they're laying next to each other or something like,
yeah. So then.
My question is. Like what's?

(01:09:45):
What's the problem with that? Because in my eyes, in order to
solve that, you need to dial back portions of the cutscenes
that may be distracting, but thepoint of this game is not the
music. The point of this game is what's
inside of the cutscenes, Which, yeah, I can understand it being
like information overload to thepoint to where it's really hard

(01:10:06):
to, like, parse out the details of the music 'cause I mean, I
had the same like, thoughts and problem too.
But to me, in order to fix that problem, you need to detract
from the stuff that actually made this game really good.
I think in some cases you do, but I think in some cases you
don't. I feel like for.
Me, it's like, I think that thisgame is definitely asking you to

(01:10:32):
play it multiple times. You know, you can criticize that
for sure if you want. Yeah, that's a fucking insult.
I I. I just feel like if that's the
case then like some of those criticisms of the like visual
bloat being too much are less meaningful to me.

(01:10:53):
I mean, I definitely agree. With you, this game expects you
to play it probably 4 times to get each ending like on your
own, if not more than that. If you like, really, really like
it, you know. I meant to ask this earlier, but
I'm going to ask it now. What the hell controls the
different endings that you get? Like what are the variables that
like operate on that? So it's boiled.

(01:11:14):
Down South of the three main endings, not counting artifact
memory, you get basically just by being kind of in the middle,
doing nothing in particular. Leave you get by being like a
coward, staying in safe rooms for too long and not killing any
enemies, taking a bunch of damage, checking a lot of locked
doors, a lot like it's things like that that gives you leave.
And then to get promised you have to be really aggressive, so

(01:11:35):
you have to take a lot of damage, kill fucking everything
you see, go really fast. And then artifact is like a.
Crazy fucking Arg ending basically, where you need to
play certain frequencies at certain parts of the game and
you figure out what parts of thegame you play those on by.
When you play those frequencies,you run them through a
spectrogram and then you see theimage that it creates and then
you go to that image with the frequency on and then it'll get

(01:11:56):
you get you a key and you need to do that three times to unlock
a safe at the end of the game. What?
The fuck? That's sick as hell, right?
I didn't. Know that.
At all you're. Not getting artifact if you're
not like a nerd or looking it up.
That reminds me, is that at all related to the item that you get
in act three that has the QR code on it 'cause before I

(01:12:18):
realized where I was supposed toslap that item down I was like
sitting there like a retard withmy phone.
Like why can't I scan this fucking thing?
Oh, that's really fun. As far as I never.
Know that's just a puzzle, yeah.Yeah, don't try.
And scan it with your phone. At least for my Pixel 8 it did

(01:12:40):
not work. All right.
Do you guys, I, I, I don't know how deep we want to go into the
narrative, but do you guys want to start on that?
Lawyers, yeah, I mean that's. The game so.
It's there's just. A lot there.
There's a lot to this narrative.There's there's a lot, there's a
lot to the characters, there's alot to the world building.

(01:13:02):
There's a lot to to what the fuck happens even what even the
fuck is that like Jesus. So I don't even know where to
start so. I'll start because like I
mentioned earlier, I've not watched any videos.
I've not read any wikis and my assumption is that the people

(01:13:25):
who bothered to care enough to read into this game did so.
What I wanted to do was give youguys kind of my interpretation
of this game, not necessarily the events, 'cause I honestly
think that like the events of this game outside of like the
granular details are like kind of self-evident, but where this

(01:13:46):
game lives is in like allegory and illusion and metaphor and
stuff. So before you guys kind of
launch into like your explanation born from external
sources, I just wanted to to go over kind of what I thought of
this game. The floor is yours, all right.

(01:14:07):
So, so I kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier, but to me,
this game felt like it was basically just one big exercise
in union psychology in an absolute myriad of ways.
So to give sort of like a brief lecture for this, like Hume's
whole thing was that in order for someone to become a quote UN

(01:14:31):
quote whole person, you have to confront all of the hidden parts
of your own mind. And he breaks that down into a
few different categories. So the first one is going to be
your ego, which is your conscious mind and the person
that you think that you are. And then the next one would be

(01:14:53):
the persona, which is the mask that you wear, like when you're
out in public, and the way that you want the outside world to
view you. The shadow, which is the part of
yourself that's kind of repressed and dark and
animalistic. It's the shit that you hide both
from the outside world and yourself.
So like your traumas, your fears, things that you just kind
of like stuff down and compartmentalize.

(01:15:15):
And then the last one is sort ofmore like union, metaphysical
essentialist, weird zany bullshit, which is your anima
and your animus, which is like your inner soul more or less.
It's like a spiritual guide. Usually it's represented by like
a person of the opposite gender.So like our animus would be a

(01:15:37):
female, right? Or our anima.
So one really important thing here to recognize is that Jung
thought that the primary way that we confront these hidden
cells, or I guess another way ofthinking about it, like
alternatively, like the way thatour hidden selves communicate
with us is through dreams. Like that is a very like core

(01:16:01):
kind of concept because Jung andFreud were kind of doing their
own shit sort of in parallel at the same time over the course of
the same like time span. And they were both kind of
obsessed with dreams. And again, Jung kind of took on
this metaphysical approach to itthat some people don't find
palatable. But I find that basically the
entire world of Signalis is a lot of union like dream concepts

(01:16:26):
made literal. So a lot of it is just, well,
really it's all just Aryans dying, bio resonant nightmare
being broadcast and overriding reality.
And so quite literally, this game is just being played inside
of her dream basically. So if we break down sort of the

(01:16:47):
progression of where things go, So act one, when you're in the
the what's it called, Sirpinski mine, this is the ego level.
So you're in the first layer of your brain, right?
So Elster has her conscious mission, which is just a fine
Arianne, right? But the masks, your personas,
which are the replicas, everything is shattering around

(01:17:09):
you. Like everything is coming
unwound, everything is coming undone.
And this is Aryan's sense of this external order and rules
breaking down into this corruption.
And in my opinion, this is the only part of the game that takes
place in something more concretely or firmly inside of
like the real, like this act oneis the last time that you see or

(01:17:33):
interface with actual reality. And then Act 2 is where you
descend down into Aryan shadow and her kind of collective
unconscious, which is another union thing.
And Elster falls outside of the reel of Act One into this kind
of raw, fleshy, abstract kind ofhellscape.

(01:17:53):
And it's not so much a memory asit is like this raw, terrifying,
repressed substructure of Aryan's memories and nightmare.
Cause again, you basically just jumped into her subconscious
dreams, right? And then Act 3 is where we're
getting into the shadow where Elster is going to surface on
rot front. But this isn't the real rot

(01:18:14):
front. This is kind of the, the, the
memory palace that Aryans repressed past sort of is, is
manifesting for you. And so this act is, is the quest
for the anima, right? This is where Aryan is or
Elster, I guess, is looking for Aryan's true self.
And so she has to navigate all of this personal trauma and the

(01:18:37):
memories of her anima in order to finally reach the Penrose,
which is the heart of that trauma, which is where we found
where we find Falchi, who is kind of like the the shadow
mirror of Aryan. So essentially this whole game
is is inside of this loop. So Elser is not so much a

(01:18:57):
person. I mean, obviously she's a
replica, but I'm using person and quotation marks here as she
is like an archetype inside of Aryan's psyche who's trying to
confront this broken ego, descend into the shadow, and
then sort through Aryan's anima's memories in order to
find herself. And ultimately, ideally does not

(01:19:19):
happen outside of one of the endings, give the dreamer who is
Aryan this sort of like inner peace.
I know that that is a very long winded sort of interpretation,
but it a lot of the aspects of like what this game is and the
way it presents itself is like very on the nose with kind of

(01:19:40):
conveying these concepts. So again, it's not the literal
interpretation of the story. I think it's just what the story
is baked into in a lot of ways. What's like the?
What's like the purpose that it's going for 'cause you know,
he said that yo straw figure outlike what a game it's like, what
it's trying to tell you. What do you?

(01:20:01):
Mean like what do you? Think like the main thing.
Like the main theme of this game.
The main. Theme is just like a it's trying
to find like the quest for yourself, right, like capital S
self in terms of like the way that you thought about it, where
again, the only way to become that sort of whole.
What's the word I'm looking for?Like actualized person is to

(01:20:23):
confront all of your inner demons and all of like the the
shit that makes you like the shit that's getting in the way
of you being the person that youwant to be.
Because you have all of these shadowy repressed like memories
and traumas that are getting in the way of you being that

(01:20:44):
actualized person. And this game is just a journey
through all of that for one person to find their quest to
actualize themselves and become the person that they are like
seeking to be What? First, before I say anything, I
just want to say this game is very difficult to talk about

(01:21:04):
because there are many many, many many correct
interpretations of this game by design.
But kind of what I want to ask along the end of what you said
there is how does the how do anyof the endings of this game play
into that last part you said about like finding yourself or

(01:21:24):
however you phrase so the endingis?
Actually like kind of an interesting part of it because
again, Falky is sort of the the fulcrum for a lot of this where
she's like, she's the corrupted shadow, right?
Like Aryan was this like weak, sick, lonely, oppressed person.

(01:21:45):
But Falki is powerful, healthy, God like and she's in total
command, right? So she's like this perfect,
idealized, powerful version of what Aryan like unconsciously or
subconsciously wished she could be, which I think is the what
leads to Falki becoming, what's the word like the locus for

(01:22:08):
Aryans like bio resonant corruption takeover sort of
deal. So past Falki, I think it gets a
little confusing and that's where it does sort of deviate
outside of. The one ending.
Where she chokes Ariana to death.
But I think there's the secret ending is really the one

(01:22:31):
confounding factor, because I think the ending where she
chokes her to death, that's likeending the loop.
That's that's giving her peace, that is making her whole again
by like achieving her promise, right.
And then the one where she is lays down and dies next to her,
presumably anyway, is they're all just like different
interpretations of the way that a person could either end up

(01:22:55):
finding their true self or stumble along the way.
And then the true ending just kind of like throws all of that
for a fucking loop and doesn't really make sense to me in in
this interpretation at least where.
Do where does. Like Arie Ann serve and like the
purpose of the story then because it basically everything
you said is like from Elser's perspective.

(01:23:16):
Aryan. Is everything like Elster is
basically just like a subconscious manifestation of
Aryan's like desire to go through all of this?
Like you could basically just treat Elster as an extension of
Aryan and like, pretend that they are not two different
people essentially. Under this interpretation, this

(01:23:38):
is the most postmodern sentence I've said in this entire
podcast. Is there a reality under that
interpretation? Like what is this all just in
her brain meets SO? That's like, that's like the one
thing that I really wrestle withwith this game that I had a lot
of trouble processing is like what is real and what is not

(01:23:59):
inside of this game, Which is why I, I, I made the point of
saying I think act one is the only part where it does take
place in some kind of actual reality.
There's a there's a couple of reasons.
I think that number one is there's more than one ship, or
at least there's more than one ship depicted.
But the only time you ever really physically enter the

(01:24:20):
ship, like clearly is when you're in Sierpinski and you
jump into the hole. And then everything after you
jump into the hole. I think it's just like a mind
fuck and. I think if.
I wanted to like try and apply some sort of literal translation
to that. I would say that it's because
Arianne is inside of her pod and.

(01:24:42):
I don't know, fucky. Wacky radiation inside of the
Penrose happened because we see radiation leaking at some point
at the end of the game, and by virtue of that, Elster sort of
basically enters into Arianne's reality slash dream state slash
whatever the fuck is going on. But reality is a complicated

(01:25:05):
question in this game. I could go either way in the
sense that act one is the only part of actual reality that we
see, or there is no reality at all.
I I don't know where. I like sit on that fence.
All right, Sesh, do you want to?Go into it or do you want?
Me to you can so I think that this.

(01:25:29):
Is this is underselling, I thinkhow correct you are 'cause I
think you're like in the right track.
I think generally of like some of the interpretations that I've
seen, like Sasha's gonna know what I mean when I say the two
dream theory is like where I'm kind of at with a lot of this.
But I think like more broadly than that, a lot of your

(01:25:50):
understanding of the narrative and your opinions on the reality
of everything is kind of. It's kind of.
On a scale, and that scale is how willing you are to accept
supernatural shit, for lack of better terms.
Or maybe put another way, how willing you are to accept the

(01:26:12):
idea of bio resonance affecting the entire society that this
game presents to you and how powerful of a thing that that
reality warping factor can be. Because like broadly where I'm
at, not even going into the 2 dream theory to, you know, not
like plagiarize someone or whatever, but like where I'm at
is that. I mean, it's like.

(01:26:34):
You said like reality is very complicated, but I'm not the
kind of person that is satisfiedwith a game that tells me I'm
just in a in a dream the entire time, even if it's very
meaningful. I like to draw meaning through
story, not the other way around,which I feel like your
interpretation is, which there'snothing wrong with that, to be

(01:26:55):
clear. It's just how I prefer it.
So I almost like then I kind of take what I'm seeing at face
value, but that has to be like reinterpreted through the lens
of this abstract dreaming that is clearly going on.
So like to me, the most broadly what's going on is that
everything we see is reality, like these things are happening.

(01:27:18):
So I will say, I guess like an important thing to mention
before you continue is that really nothing about what I said
is my read on the literal eventsof the story as well.
I think that's important to mention because I didn't want to
go into that for fear of like talking for another 15 minutes.

(01:27:38):
So what I was describing, it wasjust the background radiation
that serves as kind of the backdrop of the game, not so
much what actually transpires inthe game.
The the, the reality question notwithstanding.
Cuz that one I was trying to give kind of my literal
interpretation of. Yeah, I just feel like.

(01:28:01):
In this game, that's an important distinction because I,
I really, I just really don't like media where it's like, oh,
it's all in a dream, nothing happened.
Whatever. I I don't think very many people
like that and I just like to anchor everything by saying it
is reality. These things are happening.
It's just because of how bio resonance works in, in

(01:28:21):
combination with the weird statethat like the weird fucking
living flux state that Ariana's in.
Like it, it just fucks with everything on top of all the
other like pseudo supernatural shit that's going on with the
Red Gate and everything if you choose to interpret that as
supernatural or not. But yeah, I just wanted to state

(01:28:41):
that for the record, if anyone else wants to jump, and I will.
Say as well that I don't think that there is no reality going
on in this game. I think that when I say that I
don't know if there is a little bit or no reality in this game.
It is not to say that everythinggoing on with Arianne isn't

(01:29:04):
happening or did happen. It's more so just the way that
Elster is interfacing with Arianne.
I don't know if that's grounded in reality, but do I think that
Arianne did like go on the Penrose, enter into the cryopod,
somehow become this like bio resonant fucking God who like

(01:29:25):
somehow or another became Falchi's Wi-Fi extender who then
disseminated all of that to the Calibri's and then basically
fucked the entire universe up orGalaxy or solar system or
whatever. Like yes, I do think that that
that did literally happen withinthe confines of the game.
It's just I don't know when we enter into the story events of

(01:29:47):
this game if what we are seeing is like actual factual reality
and I think. That it is.
It's all just complicated and abstract because of the premise.
But like, like basically I guessmy interpretation in terms of
the what's happening? Is.
Like it. It's not exactly that you're in

(01:30:08):
a time loop. It's not a time loop, but
Aryan's consciousness wants to die.
It wants to fulfill the promise,which you can either interpret
that as Elster murdering Ariana,or however many other
interpretations of that there are with their love and so on
and so forth. The quote UN quote loop is

(01:30:30):
Aryan's desire for that to happen, manifesting by altering
the consciousness of Elster units into going forward and
doing it. And the primary means where this
becomes a loop is through Adler,who through his consciousness,
like his material experience is effectively in a time loop.

(01:30:54):
I think so I, I think that thereis a material there, a material
reality there because like when you fall down the elevator, when
Adler pushes you like there's anentire fucking elevator shaft of
previous Elster units that triedto do this.
And you see that like throughoutthe rest of the game, as there's
other Elster units that like failed their task.

(01:31:16):
One of the leading, I guess likeinterpretations or theories is
that at the end of Act 2, when you get the white armor, when
you like get the new arm and everything, then you are taking
the body parts from the Ulster that failed in the memory
ending. I believe it is because she dies

(01:31:37):
in the same position, and so there's an implication there
that it's less a time loop and more of like a.
Like just. Repeatedly trying the same thing
over and over and over again by having the consciousness
transplanted into new Ulster units to do the same thing so.

(01:31:59):
It's really. Hard to get into this fucking
specifics with this game so. I actually did kind of go
through a process of writing outthe different characters in the
way that I think like different union archetypes apply to them.
And Adler I think is an important one.
So union archetypes, I don't want to get into that too

(01:32:20):
deeply, but I will just say thatAdler is the archetype of the
Cenex, AKA the wise old man, AKAthe sage.
And he is there to represent like this sort of order, law,
rigidity, status quo type shit. And so when I think about Adler,

(01:32:43):
So for the record, I do think that, I mean, I, I don't know if
I would necessarily apply the label time loop to it, but I
would apply some loop X loop. There is some sort of looping
going on. And so outside, like to me,
Adler is again trying to maintain that status quo.

(01:33:04):
He's like the immune system of everything that's going on
inside of Arianne's head. And so like he's the part of
Aryan's head that's like terrified of this emotional
quest that Elster's on. And he's like actively trying to
suppress that that trauma that Elster's trying to bubble up to
the surface in order to close out the loop for Aryan.

(01:33:26):
So like, he's this rigid, desperate part of all of our
minds that would rather live inside of this looping nightmare
hellscape rather than, like, face the sort of terrifying
truth and finality of it all. Yeah, I think.

(01:33:46):
The time of things weird becauseit's like not but then Adler
writes in his diary and the datedoesn't change, but he feels
like the dates change. So like it is it's like I that
part I don't understand and I haven't seen anybody give me a
good like solution to that. I I.
I feel like it's like, I can't say exactly why it happens, but
it just feels like a consequenceof whatever is happening with

(01:34:10):
Falke's bio resonance and the reason he's like this immune
system set up like Thomas was describing is because he's
trying to protect Falke. That like, that's my vibe, but I
don't have an explanation for why that translates into a time
or if that is even really what'shappening outside other than the
like the journal Adler is. Absolutely protecting Falki.

(01:34:33):
That's said like very literally in act one like inside of his
journal. I think he says something to the
effect of I can't remember the exact wording, but like he he
just feels this like not unnatural but like unbreakable
bond towards her. And that's why I think when

(01:34:57):
Falki like gets sick and is likelaying on her deathbed or
whatever is why he kind of loseshis shit and adopts that sort of
like immune system role. Yeah, I think it's.
It's kind of a corollary. Adler and Falchi are a bit of a
corollary to Aryan and Elster. In the sense.

(01:35:21):
Where they're kind of both trying to fulfill the promise of
the other. And like Adler, if like you read
through the descriptions of all of the different replica, what
do you call them? Like archetypes, Like you know,
there's the Storch, the Mina, the Elster, and they say like
who pairs with what and so on and so on.

(01:35:43):
Adler pairs with Falke. Like one of them is for
business, one of them is for themilitary and so like
diegetically they are LinkedIn that way in addition to like the
actual events and how they played out in the game, right
there's. Elster and Arianne, which are
lovers. There's Falki and or I say Falk,

(01:36:05):
but I just think that's what I think it sounds cooler.
And Falk and Adler, who are like.
Subordinate to 1. Another or like, business
partners. And then it's ISA and Emily,
whatever her sister's name is. Erica's sister's Erica.
Yeah. Yeah, that's one.
Thing I never put together what was what was happening there
were they sisters tell you they.So Isa and Erica are sisters,

(01:36:28):
yes, but why is Isa there? I haven't found someone to
explain a way that I like. The the video.
That me and Seth watch says thattheorizes that it is a ISA is a
self insert of Arianne into the dream to interact with like
Elster. But I don't like that.
I don't think it really works for me.
So I don't have an answer for ISA, I can tell you.

(01:36:49):
What I wrote. Go ahead, I wrote down that her.
Role in the story is to represent failure, so she's what
happens when the hero gets lost in their unconscious and they
get consumed by the quest and end up failing.
So she's wandering hopelessly through like the nowhere.

(01:37:10):
She doesn't show up in Rotfront I don't think so she's just
wandering hopelessly and ends updying and her quest is
unfulfilled. So she's just kind of this like
dark reflection who's showing Elster like the futility and
despair that the journey that she's on is kind of soaked in.
But then Elsa just. Does the same thing in the

(01:37:31):
memory ending, so that's why I like just yeah.
Just like a real quick go ahead.ESA does show up in rot.
That's where she evaporates, yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Inside of the room with her
fucking sister's portrait. Yeah, duh.
That was a cool moment, by the way.
I fucking love that part. Oh yeah.

(01:37:51):
That's my favorite scene. Like fucking.
Dissolves into the bloody goop. That part was fucking sick ass.
Yeah, I. Think there's a lot of her story
that contributes, again, to like, the theming and what
they're trying to get AT. And I'm saying all this very
broadly because it's difficult to interpret.
But yeah, no, I agree. I thought that scene was
awesome. Probably a highlight of the game

(01:38:13):
for me, especially with like thePrometheus, a line that's right
behind her. But yeah, there's definitely not
a strong solid answer to what she is supposed to represent.
Because of that, I just lean towards her representing Aryan's

(01:38:33):
like deep, deep subconscious or alternative ways of fulfilling
the promise. But can't do it because Elster
has to. But I just feel like there's I
don't have a better answer than yeah.
Again, I mean. That's basically what I wrote,
right? She's just there to like,
demonstrate failure. I'm curious who Erica is and

(01:38:54):
what their relationship because does it actually ever explicitly
say that Erica is ESA's sister? It says that they have the same
last. Name it says it somewhere.
OK. Well, their mom is Lilith.
The yeah. Oh.
Yeah, Lilith is the. Lilith Salt of Elster.
Yeah, well. No, there's two right?

(01:39:15):
Or there's two that it could be.At least.
That was the fuck. Lilith is the only one I
remember but there's another onethat because I was trying to
figure that out and Lilith seemed like she was the most
obvious but there was another one who was like in a picture or
that medical log fuck I cannot remember and I didn't write it
down, who I thought might also be like a candidate to be a

(01:39:36):
gestalt for Elster. I think the.
Strongest evidence that Lilith is her guest gestalt is because
there is the image of Lilith andOh my God I can't remember the
other Alina in the picture. Alina and they're in the 5th
Infantry unit 12 or whatever. And the Elster unit that Ren

(01:39:58):
falls in love with is unit O512.Yeah, and that's, that was what
made me think that it was Lilith.
But there there's another one that I think that there's like a
small little, like subtle bit ofevidence that it could have been
her as well. And I wish I could fucking
remember, but I I did sit in thecamp that is probably Lilith.

(01:40:20):
And she's the. Mom of Isa and Erica's.
That's right, they all have the last name.
Too. Yeah, Thomas, what do you think?
Of the idea of I'm going to try to as broad describe this
succinctly as I can, but this isthe truth.
The 2 dream theory from the video that Jordan and I watched,

(01:40:40):
which is effectively that there are two people dreaming and bio
resonating and therefore affecting reality.
There is Arianne obviously and the second is Falky.
So when you're going through thegame, the first act when you're
in Sierpinski, that is the dreamof Falki, which would explain

(01:41:01):
like why you're actually able tohave everything so solidly there
compared to Arian who never actually went to Sierpinski.
And then the second act you're in like the Venn diagram of
those two dreams where they're intersecting in nowhere.
And then the third act, you're in Rock Front where Ariann grew
up, So you're in her dream, and that's where like you end the

(01:41:23):
game. What do you think of that
interpretation? My first question would be.
Aryan didn't go. To Sirpinski, I thought, I mean,
I know that I thought she was going to go to Sirpinski.
Is it that she was going to go to Sirpinski and she ended up
getting on the Penrose? Yeah, it was.
Either she goes on the Penrose or she goes to Sirpinski and
that would not have been a good time.

(01:41:44):
OK, cuz I I. Thought she went to Sirpinski
and then she got on the Penrose.So my like order of events was
messed up I guess. I guess I would have to hear
like more evidence for why that is like.
Like what? What's?

(01:42:04):
I guess what's the significance of that?
Like like yeah, just tell me more.
Well, like we already. Know that Faulk is the source of
I'm I'm gonna alternate between Faulk and Faulky now.
We already know that she is the source of the sickness for all
of the replicas. I I think that's just outright

(01:42:26):
stated if I'm correct. Sesh, do you have any?
Other specifics to bring that inI'm forgetting on the evidence
right now for? So it's when she goes through
the Red Gate, then she never feels the same again.
And it's led to believe that there whatever is like deep
inside of that planet tapped into the frequency of the magpie
signal that was sending the bio residents of Arianne.

(01:42:48):
So then that kind of like got her to bio resonate with Falke
and then she just then she starts to sleep.
See, I just sort. Of assumed that like if you're
looking at if you're looking at it like top down is like a
hierarchical thing that this waslike a a portion of the story

(01:43:10):
that I couldn't rationalize either, which is how did Aryan
get so fucking powerful that shecould bio resonate with all
these people. And my underlying assumption was
always just that radiation funkywacky in the guts of Sierpinski
made her basically like mind meld with Falky.

(01:43:33):
And then since Falky is sort of the, I don't know the right word
to use, like the manager for allthe Calibri's and then the
Calibri's or the managers for everyone else, that she just
Aryan basically just took Falki over and just cascaded that down
to every replica in the fucking known universe essentially.

(01:43:57):
So I guess. Like my question then is how
does that like differentiate itself from this like to dream
theory? Like how does Falki dreaming?
I think it's. I think it's.
Pretty similar. I think it's just explaining
like exactly what happened, I think because I mean, Arianne

(01:44:17):
and and Falk are like the same model when they use it, it's the
same shot. One has black hair, 1 has like
Gray hair, you know, So I think it's kind of trying to say that
they're pretty close to like analogous the same thing.
And then there's like the split between like the part that I
don't understand and I keep forgetting even though I look it
up. Is that when like you like you
fuses into we in that German fucking scene and then like

(01:44:39):
Faulk and Elster then they have to become one?
But I don't understand when or how they weren't one in the
first place. Like how they were connected?
I think it's. Because.
Or or my interpretation? Rather is when Faulk went
through the Red Gate. Like it's like you said.

(01:45:02):
She got corrupted by the magpie signal, which was like the
instruction to Elster to fulfillthe promise and because Faulk
went and and like the part of the thing about Faulks is that
they are similar to Calibri's and that they're extremely bio
resonant. They have like psychic
capabilities, which is why they can levitate shit like she does
with the Spears at the end of the game.
And when she goes through the Red Gate she just gets like

(01:45:23):
fully ass blasted with the magpie signal.
And that causes like a lot of this.
The the the signal that Ariana is trying to communicate out is
the consciousness of the Elster we play as.
But Falk got corrupted with that.
I'm not sure if that answered what you were asking.

(01:45:44):
Yeah, it's still like, yeah, because it's, it's like fucked
up because yeah, like Falk losestheir identity because of it,
which is like the the hard part,Yeah.
And I mean. That's that's like outright
stated. Yeah, I guess Elster needs to
fuse with Faulk to become Elster512.
But that doesn't make. Sense because you can still get

(01:46:05):
the memory ending with that happening I.
Guess like you could. Interpret it as, and this is
more broad than specific, but like if Faulk is representing
order along with Adler, because they're they're not one in the
same, but they're they're LinkedIn their like design
purposes, right. Then Faulks desire to become one

(01:46:27):
is like to unify the dreams, right, But Elster's goal is to
end the dream. I guess like that's the most
Broadway I could think of it. That hurts my head.
Yeah, it's like. That's the part where it gets
really fucked up is like the ending of the game.
It's the part where like I just,it keeps losing me no matter how
many times like I look into it and try to get other people's

(01:46:48):
like opinion. Yeah, like I.
Said like. Even for me, my like
interpretation of this game likefalls apart when I try to think
about the ending. That's it's like the toughest
part, especially because the artifact ending is like a
contradiction, like it can't happen.
So because of that, it's it's even more fucked up.
Yeah, the. Artifact, The artifact ending is

(01:47:11):
one that like I think I would need to sit with for like
another week and then reread TheKing in Yellow in order to like
try and apply how I what I feel like might be happening there,
which is I, I never wrapped my head around this after I said I
was gonna try and wrap my head around it earlier.
But the way that I kind of see the artifact ending is that

(01:47:33):
Elster is actually like supplanting Aryan and becoming
the King in Yellow. Because I think the reason that
the King in Yellow is like such a strong motif throughout the
game, or at least like, well, no, it is just a strong motif,
is that Aryan is the king in Yellow.
And I think that the artifact ending is trying to say that

(01:47:56):
Elster is going to replace Aryanas the King in Yellow.
And you can decide for yourself whether that's a good or a bad
thing. I don't, I don't think it would
be a good thing, but that's the only way that I can like, wrap
my head around what the fuck I'mseeing in the artifact ending

(01:48:17):
because otherwise it just makes no sense to me.
How does that play? Into them eternally dancing at
the end, yeah. Don't know.
Yeah, because that's the thing. Like.
So I don't understand what happens before that.
Like, I don't know the city of it's a showing the artifact and
then like all of everything elsethat happens.
But then that last scene seems to allude to the fact that they
are going to dance together for eternity.

(01:48:38):
I mean it would. Like symbolically that's
representative of some sort of ascension to heaven, right?
And like, there's all of the like they're, you know, we,
we've talked about all the literature impacts on this game,
but there's obviously a lot of religious impacts as well, like
all of the angelic imagery surrounding Falk.

(01:48:58):
There's like some Taoism in there.
There's probably more that I missed.
There's like random folklore, but.
Yeah, I like. The only thing I can interpret
is that that the artifact endingseems to be some kind of
ascension to heaven, but I can'texplain why.
Yeah, I, I. Tom's right.

(01:49:19):
If you reread The King in Yellow, because there's
something in that video, it talks about it, but I can't
remember because it's too foreign to me.
It's something about like there's some kind of concoction
that they make that when they, like, paint it on things that
turns it Opal and that does something to it that allows it
to like, I don't know, be fucking some crazy object.
And that's like the significanceof the Lily because that's what
they do. And The King in Yellow as well,
but I'm missing details. Yeah, the Lily is.

(01:49:40):
The only reason why I'm even applying the King in Yellow to
that ending. Yeah, just as like a.
Quick TLDR, Like the King in Yellow is just a book about a
play that when you read the playyou go crazy.
And a big like part of that is Ikeep wanting to say the yellow

(01:50:03):
sign, but I don't know if I'm just like confusing it with red
sign. Anyway, yeah, like you'll see
this yellow sign like on the walls and in your house or
whatever. And that means that you're going
to get led to the King in Yellowplay.
And one of the, like, fun thingsfor me in this game was like in

(01:50:24):
the beginning wondering if the King in Yellow that you pick up
a couple of times, if that's thebook, like the Robert Chambers
book, or if it's meant to be theactual play that makes you go
Lokodoko. And yeah, I think they allude to
the yellow sign or the sign in yellow or whatever the fuck they
call it. I forget, I haven't read that.

(01:50:45):
I read that book like 2 years ago, which it should be fresher
in memory, but it's not. But yeah, they allude to that
like a bunch of times in the game.
This is an unrelated question. Well, unrelated to this game is
that was the ring inspired by the King of Yellow like the.
Movie. Yeah, because you're describing

(01:51:08):
it. I'm like, that's the fucking
ring. Basically I.
Mean, if you told me that it was, I would believe you because
there is so much shit that is inspired by the King in Yellow,
but I don't necessarily see the parallels outside of that.
You watch, you watch the movie and then a fucking ghost comes
out of your TV and mercs you it.Feels more like.

(01:51:32):
Feels more like a read a wiki entry of the King in Yellow
rather than actually read it. And yeah, yeah, yeah.
But. Yeah.
Yeah, but and so. For the endings, another thing
is like, apparently all those endings like happened.
Like that's kind of the thing. And then the artifact ending is
like if all three of them failedor something.
I don't know that that that ain't fucked up.

(01:51:56):
I remember when I first. Beat this game three years ago.
It was like 4 days after it cameout and like no one had any info
or anything. And after I watched the artifact
ending is when I was like, I don't know what the fuck's going
on and I just tapped out becausethere was no information
anywhere. It was like way too fucking
confusing because there was people being like what the fuck
is going on? And there wasn't even a wiki or
anything. So yeah, yeah, that one.

(01:52:16):
Throws me for a loop. Honestly, all four innings kind
of throw me for a loop, but thatone, like especially, yeah.
It's fucking weird. We kind.
Of touched on. This earlier, but do you guys
feel like, you know like this this game draws a lot of like
allusions to characters within itself by making them visually

(01:52:37):
similar, kind of like Jordan wasdescribing with Falcon Aryan
looking like identical other than a pallet swap.
Do you guys think that that's like, does it get in the way of
itself at all or do you feel like it's like necessary for the
kind of story that they're trying to get at?
Don't understand why they do it exactly, but I'm I know it's for

(01:53:00):
a purpose like I don't, I'm not like all they're lazy by reusing
this, but yeah. Because like the.
The broader thing that I want toget at as we start like zooming
out, because I don't know how how much deeper we want to get
into this because it's so difficult in a group setting.
Like this is like it's kind of like Thomas was talking about

(01:53:20):
before with the the canvas that we are meant to draw on with
these levels of abstractions that these games present to us.
Like where is the line of a coherent narrative versus open
to interpretation experiences for you guys?
Because like, if I think of a game like Clair Obscure, I think
that's like the the perfect linefor an approachable game that is

(01:53:42):
still open to interpretation in terms of like your morality of
understanding of the ending. Whereas this game is like full
fucking hog in terms of asking you to draw your own
conclusions. Like is it too?
Much should it have toned it down a little?
Bit or no? I think y'all know the answer to
that question for me. I'm sorry I got.

(01:54:06):
Really lost in thinking about the artifact ending and I didn't
listen to the question he's basically just asking.
The the meta question that we have of.
Yeah, like where's the line? For a coherent narrative versus
open to interpretation experience, Oh, I have.
A like. I have a very low.

(01:54:26):
Bar for what I will accept in sofar as like a game's level of
like impenetrability so. Well, I mean there there.
Still has to be a line somewhere, right?
So like, where would it be for you?
The line is. Finnegan's wake dude.
Like again, that's like I'm a person who reads fucking Thomas
Pynchon in fucking Infinite Jestand the line is drawn at

(01:54:49):
Finnegan's wake. Feel free to Google a passage
from that book if you want to try and understand what what I'm
referencing. Yeah, I think I, I think that
this game does a good job of like putting a lot of
information there if you want tofind it, but it doesn't explain

(01:55:09):
it as well as like Claire Obscure does, right?
Where like Clare Obscure is alsolike very mysterious.
But by the end it kind of gives you most of the information.
This game, you kind of have to go and figure it out.
And I think both are cool. I don't.
I definitely don't. I don't think this game is too
obtuse and I definitely think there's enough there.

(01:55:31):
Yeah, like. I, I mean, I agree with that.
Like, I don't think, I don't think Clare Obscure is trying to
be obtuse at all. I think Clare Obscure is It's
hiding the details until it doesn't want to anymore, but
then by the end of the game it'snot.
It's not asking you to like interpret the events and the

(01:55:52):
themes. It's asking you a very tough
question. Which I think.
Is different is which is different from a game that's
like living in the abstract likethis and hello Charlotte and to
kind of a slightly lesser degree1000 times resist.
Yeah, I think this game is. Definitely a lot more like who's
Lila, but done better. Yeah, I, I.

(01:56:15):
Actually, I agree. With that, like who's Lila
whether this piece of shit? Why?
What? About who's Lila?
Because I understood. The story in that game, it's
really that fucking simple. If this game isn't for you, this
game provides literally fucking nothing.
The thing about this game makes me so mad.
That's why I've kept quite this whole time.

(01:56:39):
I might be. Wrong by multiplicative of two
of Ben's score. Yeah, it.
Might be multiplicative. Of three.
This might be This might be the only game I ever guessed.
Ben is the lowest score and I don't think I went low enough.
I think we should. Set a role for ourselves.
We should set a role for ourselves at the farthest away
from his score, this time with. OK, I sat here.

(01:57:07):
And I was kind of like lost in my own thoughts for about 5
minutes thinking about the artifact ending.
So sorry, I was kind of checked out, but I think I have kind of
like a final thought for how I envision what's going on there.
And sorry to kind of bring this back to something we were
talking about like 10 minutes ago, but.

(01:57:30):
What I was saying? Is that I felt like the ending
of this game was Elster becomingthe new king in yellow because
Aryan is the current king in yellow.
She's like the God like figure who is corrupting reality and I

(01:57:51):
think that what we see that ritual.
That's like. The process, right?
Like maybe Elster has to die sixtimes or whatever, and that's
just Elster sacrificing everything, her own identity,
her own whatever, in order to like become the God of this new

(01:58:11):
reality that she is going to construct in order to become the
new king in yellow. And so I was trying to think how
does that like, apply to what wesee in the dance?
And my brain puzzled it out. And I think what we see is the
very first thing that Elster decides to do with that new

(01:58:32):
divine power. So after we see like the fucking
zoom out cosmic horror red eye thing and then Elster assumes
the role of the new like mad God, the first act that she
takes as God is to create her own version of heaven where all
she is going to do is dance withAryan for eternity.

(01:58:54):
Yeah, I think I. Think like one layer that I
think thematically adds to that is that like, in a lot of ways,
this game feels like like Elser's Journey feels like it's
designed around breaking out of your programming.
Like that's very much intentional for what the first
two acts are trying to get you to do.

(01:59:15):
Like you have the promise withinyou, but it's for the wrong
person. You're trying to find Alina.
I think it's Alina instead of Aryan.
So like it's in you, but she hasa break out of it to actually
remember what the promise was. And I think part of the tragedy
of Act three, you know, other than murdering your lover

(01:59:35):
because you promised to, is thatshe's still stuck in that like
programming that she has to do this, even though like she kind
of does actually like quote UN quote fixed reality.
But I guess like my interpretation of what you're
saying as well, Thomas, in a thematic sense is that she's
doing that like ascension to be the King in yellow, to break out

(01:59:55):
of that programming to ascend pass or, you know, Cyborgy
predetermined notion of what shehas to be, just like she did
when she fell in love with Aryanin the first place.
Hell yeah. What a sick game so.
First question is. Is the King in yellow he's like
the God of mischief or is he just a God or what is he?

(02:00:17):
I think he's just kind. Of like a God of madness.
It's I mean it's like very love,crafty and expired meaning or
inspired meaning. There's not a whole lot of like
detail about what the King in yellow is other than he Lords
over the realm of Carcosa, whichis heaven or hell depending on
how you want to read it. And he makes people go nuts.

(02:00:38):
O fuck O. Is there like an artifact that
has something to do with that The king of Yellow?
Not that I really. Remember because.
That's why that's like, that's the part that really fucks me
up. Like, how does that make her
transcend? Yeah, again.

(02:00:58):
That's like. I don't know trying.
To apply like literal like readings to the events is always
going to be hard. I think.
Like my version of how I'm reading it is kind of zooming
out from that a little bit. Yeah, I'm.
I'm not even trying. To get like I'd I'd like what is
the artifact represent like at all?

(02:01:19):
Like I know it's supposed to be the fucking what is it the
Sierpinski triangle or whatever?I don't know.
I I'm still not settled on the artifact itself, but I can at
least tell you I feel like in line with what I'm saying of
breaking out of her programming,the symbolism of the Lily at
least, like visually, phonetically, Lily Lilith, she's

(02:01:44):
breaking out of her gestalt likeprogramming of what she had to
be and becoming her own person. And that leads to whatever
fucking artifact ritual. I don't fucking know.
Yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I would have to sit
with it for another couple of days and like Mull it over
really hard. This game is a lot in a good

(02:02:05):
way. Do you guys want to get down
into any like nitty gritty specifics maybe like.
Just something to tone. Us down from this level of
abstraction before we get into. I think the coolest thing that I
never picked up on, and never would pick on if I didn't look

(02:02:25):
at wiki's, was that in order to like, let you know that nowhere
is like rooted in some kind of radiation, they use the words
from a 1993 report about fuckingnuclear waste handling.
Oh my. God, they just put.
That into the start of nowhere and redact a bunch of it's so
sick. Holy fuck.

(02:02:47):
I can picture that that's like alegendary thing in the world of
safety, right? Is because it's like meant to be
read by any living creature. Oh my God, I didn't pick up on
that's what that was. I was going to ask you.
If you had it, if you interfacedthis because of your profession,
because it's like kind of close.So that's why I was like, yeah,
that's sound. This.
That is like a fucking legendarything because of the way that

(02:03:10):
they tried to make it so that anyone, past or present or
future, will be able to, like, interpret what it means.
Damn, I didn't pick up on that. Another thing.
Is that another way that you do that, that you probably know Tom
is you put down a bunch of spikefields and then so in the fake
ending, you see a big ass fucking spike field, like you're

(02:03:31):
walking through a spike field toget to the Penrose.
Oh God, and. All the surrounding symbolism
with the fact that, you know, there is literal like, radiation
leaking on the ship, but also Aryan has cancer and then she is
becoming like a literal, literalcancer cell growth on all of

(02:03:51):
reality. Oh my God, yeah.
Like the only. Reason I even said the words
radiation is because of the one room at the end of the game and
well, I guess they do mention somewhere that like once the the
the like maintenance, once you've run out of like tools to
fix shit. Want the shit?
I can't remember what they said now I'm tripping over my fucking

(02:04:11):
words. Yeah, something.
About like spare your Yeah, spare yourself like the slow
death and have your. Take you out.
Also this is. Like a small thing, but related
to nowhere 'cause I, I mean, youguys know me, I've loved me some
Lovecraft. So I think all of Act 2 is
fucking sick. I just love the tiny little

(02:04:32):
detail of like, you exit South and you enter NI.
Noticed that while I was playingI loved.
It what? Used to be off so much.
When I I forgot this I forgot that when they removed the map
and then started doing that I got really aggravated.
It's like it's like you can't doboth man.
Do one or the other. Like I don't know where the fuck
I'm going anymore. Like that's the point.

(02:04:53):
You're in nowhere. It's all confusing.
It's it's, it's perfect. My thing with nowhere was like,
once I wrapped my head around how to navigate it.
I actually really, really, really liked it.
But when I like stopped my play session for the night and came
back the next day I was fucking pissed because I was like where
the fuck? Do I go?
I don't remember any of this shit so I think.

(02:05:15):
I like the idea, but I like whengames do this and there's no
like it's, there's no like fail state, right?
So you'll just like go through aroom and then after you do it
like 8 times, it puts you where like you're supposed to be, you
know? So like you're really confused,
but it's not like you were trying to work towards a thing.
I think that the fact that the game let had you like sit in the
confusion and never resolves theconfusion was really frustrating
to actually play. Thematically, it's really cool

(02:05:36):
and I think that's kind of the point of the game of like this
game does frustrating things because it works towards the
theme of what the game is doing,but it's still fucking annoying
in the moment. That's really.
Interesting to. Me because I like am IA fucking
God gamer. I never felt like I was lost in
the nowhere. So when I realized that I was
entering N exiting SI thought like like it was just the like
perfect level of horror tone that I love where like you can

(02:05:59):
feel that something is wrong, but you don't know what.
And that moment of realization when I had that was fucking
awesome. Oh, I.
Knew immediately once I went through the east and I came out,
the fucking SI was like God damnit.
And then I opened the map and the map wasn't there and I was
like, you can fucking. I mean, listen.
I, I played too much Final Fantasy 8.
I just thought it was like camera shifts, you know?

(02:06:20):
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once.
They took the map away. I was like oh got to pay
attention to this shit now. It was really annoying too.
Because of the keypads, right? Like, everything in that fucking
area is like supposed to like, blend together.
So like, there's all these shapes that look the fucking
same. And then and then you're like,
where are the keypads? And then you're just wandering
around being like, did I miss a keypad?
And yeah, like it's supposed to contribute to the confusion, but

(02:06:41):
I thought it was just more frustrating than cool in the
moment. I actually really liked.
Act 2. I think Act 2 is my favorite of
of the three. I think.
Man, it's close. They're all really good.
Yeah, yeah. I think I like actually just.
Because I think the puzzle's thecoolest, even though they dumb
it down to baby Yeah. I think really.

(02:07:02):
Just if that journal. Was in a different room.
That's all they needed to do. I mean just split it up.
And put it all over the place, including at the beginning of
the game or I don't know. If they should have done that,
because they already did that with the fucking tarot cards.
And I mean, I guess they could have put a journal entry in like
each of the rooms with the tarotcards and like mixed them up or
whatever. But I don't know.
I've I felt like that would havebeen maybe a little too much.

(02:07:25):
But I Act 3, I feel like Act 3 is kind of a step down from the
rest because it kind of just pissed me off more, more than I
felt like I was comfortable with.
Like not even with like the puzzles or the solutions, but
just the that that is where the inventory management really
rears its ugly head the most. And it's got the most annoying

(02:07:48):
ass fucking rooms to navigate byfar.
Specifically. With that, even though I like it
again, thematically, but the wayit starts cutting off rooms and
like you lose your shortest access to get to certain areas
of that they're they're OK. There was one time I got to the
room with the moon card. My inventory was full.
Had to run a fucking mile back to the safe room.

(02:08:10):
I forgot that I didn't pick up the moon card.
So I get to the end and I'm like, wait, there's only 5
pages? I only have 5 tarot cards that's
going on here. And I had to fucking.
Look up what the 6th 1 was because I forgot to go back and
pick it up and by that time all the fucking rooms are cut off so
I had to go the longest way around.
That shit was awful, but it was memorable.
So they're. And on the flip side of that.

(02:08:31):
I think the coolest puzzle in the game is the the butterfly
one because it's kind of like the closest thing to like a La
Milano puzzle because it's not like beating the shit out of you
with it, but it's still like it's closed.
Yeah, I think that was. Probably my favorite puzzle.
I guess like All things considered, Paragola.

(02:08:51):
One. What's that you said?
The butterfly one. The Paragola.
And then? Also the fact that when you walk
up to the safe and it says Elster, I think is a really nice
touch. As if it's waiting.
For you go. Ahead, Ben, when it comes to.
Favorite puzzle? I guess I do have something
positive to say about this game.I liked the puzzle where you had

(02:09:12):
to create your own card, like from the blank card, you had to
like use inspect and like find the pattern that you needed to
replicate. So that's like my favorite
puzzle in the game. I think that's a.
Mechanical. Puzzle for sure.
I like. That one and the.
Lock picking one quite a bit. The lock picking one.
Was weird. Yeah, that one was pissing me

(02:09:33):
off because I didn't, like, realize what was happening.
Yeah, 10 minutes and 10. Minutes.
Yeah, no it. Took me way too long and then
once I realized what was going on I was like oh this is really
fucking easy. That felt like most of.
Them though, I don't know, they just felt really like unique to
me and I like. Yeah, they were.
Definitely. Unique.
I do agree with that I. I think I used that mod I used

(02:09:57):
to reduce the shit broke the. The gas puzzle.
Or whatever because like multiple like the up and down
light would be on at the same time and I would just I was just
like, I don't think this puzzle works right.
So that literally broke for me. But then the fuse puzzle I
solved like by accident basically.
Yeah, I don't. Know yeah, I also kind of did

(02:10:18):
that. I I figured out how it was
supposed to work, like there waslike multipliers for the numbers
or whatever but I think I flipped solved it.
Yeah, by the time. By the time I had figured out
what was going on, I just like accidentally clicked the right
like assortment to solve it. I think the only bad puzzle or

(02:10:38):
like the the only puzzle I thought was like way weaker than
the red. No, it's just bad.
Was don't you say the water. 1 No.
No, no, no, no. I like the water.
I like the water one, even though that was another example
where they just give you the fucking answer for some reason.
Yeah, that shit was. Annoying.
That was literally the answer. Yeah, it.
Was just straight up the instructions to solve it.

(02:11:00):
I thought that was kind of weird, but no, it's the one to
get the the astrolabe. I don't even know how to
describe it where you like just have to press the four direction
through the. Solar system, yeah, yeah.
Weak ass puzzle. Yeah, total shit, I agree.
That one does did definitely really suck.
I think it and it like it had the bones to be really cool,
like from like learning about the universe perspective, but it

(02:11:22):
just ended up being an annoyance.
Yeah, like. That's again.
That's that's like what I keep getting back to this puzzle or
or this game just needed a puzzle like what blueprints does
where like you need to understand each nation, the flag
of each nation. Good luck.
Wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not asking it to go that
deep. But you know what?

(02:11:42):
I I think. You guys are thinking of the
wrong puzzle. I think you guys are.
You guys are thinking of the actual puzzle on the astrolabe,
I think, where you have to like align the planets in the right
sequence. Oh yeah, What are you thinking?
I'm talking about the one. That actually gives you the
astrolabe where you just have tolike, it's like a ice block
puzzle. Yeah, it's so.

(02:12:03):
Bad you guys don't even rememberwith the book, Yeah.
With the book. Oh, is that the thing where you?
Have to like slide that like hard drive looking thing.
Yeah, that thing with dog shit. So.
Bad you guys don't even. Remember it I.
Told you I. Honestly.
I'd like solve that by accident because I was just trying to
figure out the controls and thenI put myself in a way that I
thought that I was stuck. And then once I got unstuck it

(02:12:24):
was solved and I was like oh cool.
Yep, same here. I like like.
I thought you had to move it to the bottom left where the slot
is and that. Wasn't it?
So I just. Yeah, I just kept sliding it
around and I was like, oh cool, the book is now in my hand for
some reason being set to the. Exact same thing.
That's hilarious. I solved almost all the.

(02:12:46):
Puzzles by accident. The water one I.
Didn't the water 1 was fucking sick and then yeah the gas one I
couldn't solve because it was broken.
My favorite puzzle. I don't even know why, but my
favorite puzzle was definitely the radio tower one.
I thought that 1 was fucking awesome.
That was super cool. Yeah, everything around.
The magpie sandal I fucking. Love, like I'd mentioned this in

(02:13:07):
the channel, but I don't know ifyou saw I guess you watch that
video with the the three note oddity being literally just what
it is. Yeah, I thought that was super.
Fucking cool. Yeah.
I was like. Aware of like the magpie signal,
like as a concept and what it was, but I didn't I yeah, like I
said, I did not know that. It just straight up took the
whole thing basically even the numbers.

(02:13:30):
Like that part, I thought that at least like they did or
something, but no they just tookthat and then made it work in
the context of the game. Yeah By the way, you need to use
those numbers to get that spectrogram for the artifact
ending. That's like part of it.
OK, cuz I was. Like sitting there thinking like
when you told me that the numbers are the same, I was like
God damn, I must just be like fucking stupid as hell cuz I was
like sitting there the entire time looking at those numbers.
I probably the majority of my screenshots are those numbers.

(02:13:54):
Yeah. I mean I was like trying to
figure out what they are. Then then you probably would
have. Gotten it.
But yeah, I, I. Screenshotted so many fucking
like sequences of numbers from the magpie signal thinking it
was going to like come up later or something.
I guess it does, just not a way that I thought exactly.
And again. I don't know how you would think
to take those frequencies and put them through a spectrogram

(02:14:15):
and then find those images in the game and then play the
frequency there like it's it's fucking hard.
I got a. Question for you.
Guys, yeah. What was your favorite like
document? I like the one.
About like how you get the rings, the order of the rings.
That's a good one. Yeah, I've really.

(02:14:35):
Liked all of the Aryan's logs inthe ship for story reasons.
This is like kind of a personal thing that I might bring up in
my rating, but I really liked learning the word peridola.
That's a good one. Oh yeah, I have two.
Favorites. What are they saying?

(02:14:57):
I I screenshot of them I'm pasting them.
Hang on. All right, I really.
Like the one that says it calls me in a sea of flesh, we will
become one. But I can never go back to being
me because I feel like that was a point where I really started
to like understand the story. And that whole.
Both of those I believe are on like first person segments on

(02:15:20):
the beach, but they're differentsegments.
And that though the, the IT calls me in a sea of flesh 1
happens 1st and that's where I kind of like started piercing
things together a little bit. And then the other one I posted
is also on a beach where it justsays kill me, kill me, kill me,
kill me, kill me, kill me over and over and over again.
And then you skip to the next one and it's just the same thing

(02:15:42):
repeated even more. And that's on the beach scene.
I believe it's between act two and three, which I think that's
right. It's, it's, it's somewhere in,
in that range. But yeah, that was another point
where I was like, oh, that's probably what this fucking
promises, huh? Cuz I cuz like, I recognized
that all of these notes were from Arie Anne.

(02:16:05):
And yeah, I just fucking loved both of those cuz they like
really gave me a like better broader understanding of what
was going on. And I think they're nice and
poetic and cool, yeah. I felt like.
Like stuff like those notes. Really like it.
It called back to my love for Lovecraft, but it didn't feel so

(02:16:26):
like it. It felt.
Like, there's so many different inspirations for this game, and
Lovecraft is one of them, but atthe same time it makes itself so
meaningfully different from all of them and coalesces all of
them into this beautiful little thing.
And I love it, what I like. Is that there's like this,
there's like a pyramid of inspirations, right?
So like this game it it calls out three books in the credits,

(02:16:50):
right? It calls out the festival by
Lovecraft, the King and Yellow by Robert Chambers and the
inhabitant of Carcosa by StephenBeers or Ambrose Beers.
And I think it's really cool that that trace is a direct
lineage where this game you can trace to Lovecraft, Lovecraft
you can directly trace to RobertChambers, King and Yellow, in

(02:17:16):
which you can directly trace to the inhabitant of Carcosa.
Like there's literally a line where each of them are like
referencing each other's work, like directly, like by name,
even through like more than 150 years apart, there's like this
super long lineage of basically Carcosa, King and Yellow shit.

(02:17:37):
And I think that's really cool. I agree.
It's fucking. Awesome.
And I I just. Really like the just to call out
again, like the use of the games, like real world shit, but
then twisting it for like the world itself.
So it's kind of like parallels to our universe.
I think it's just super cool, yeah.
I think it's. It's it's almost like the
opposite of some of our criticisms of Hades too, where

(02:17:59):
like it's taking things that have already been like written
or applied in the real world, but then using it to actually
build their own world instead ofrelying on it over much.
Like I, I didn't need to know anything about the the magpie
signal in order for it to be like an interesting and
evocative thing in this game. It worked by itself and then the
extra context also works. Same thing with the painting of

(02:18:21):
I think it's called the island. Like, I, I mean, I was going to
be like super impressed, like easy fucking 10 out of 10 with
these developers if they made like that painting and all the
like substrates of it that flashby.
I obviously they didn't. But like just all these, like I
said, all these inspirations just fucking ooze through and

(02:18:41):
it's such a it's a meaningful story.
It's great. Yeah.
I. Really really really really love
when. Like works.
Can clearly borrow from other artists, especially when they
borrow from artists in differentmediums like this game does and
use that in order to facilitate like carving out its own unique

(02:19:07):
identity and its own unique spinin a way that like utilizes
those works of art or retranslates those works of art
without just like kind of just doing the who's Lila right where
all they're doing is just stealing rather than like

(02:19:28):
reinterpreting or retranslating They're they're like they're
wearing their inspiration on their face, but they are also
again establishing something unique and clearly their own
yeah it it's. Like it's like when someone
looks at a painting and you knowyou, you like, you look at the
island and it's evocative of death and all these other

(02:19:50):
things. And like anyone looking at that
painting can interpret it and whatever way they want, but like
this game just felt like. The developers.
Had all these inspirations from all these different pieces of
media and, and like, earnest ways that they were able to
evoke in the creation of this game.
And I think that's a very, very rare thing to see, yeah.

(02:20:14):
Absolutely. I think that's like the
incredible thing about this gameis that it it takes on the
qualities of a painting, right? Where like you can have 10
different people look at one painting and those 10 different
people might come away with it with a totally different
experience and a totally different interpretation.
And I think that this game is maybe one of like the best

(02:20:38):
examples of doing that in in video games that I am aware of.
I actually talk about that a little bit in my final rating.
So I guess I'll shut the fuck up.
But yeah, this game does a really good job of doing that.
I do think. Unless you guys have any closing
bits, we should move on to ratings.
I think it's time that we are actually able to get Ben back in

(02:20:58):
here. I.
Could not wait at all for anything you guys just said.
I like no. Hit us with your negative score.
Brother, give us that rating, all right?
This game. Mainly update my heuristic or
rather it may be add to it. If I see the word cozy I think
boring. If I see the word themes I think

(02:21:20):
uninstall. Because this game would have
been a one out of 10. If it didn't have to debug
console I would not have been it.
Even for Tash I don't give a fuck.
It would not have been beaten without the cheats.
There were some good. Things about the game.
Visually it was very stunning and it played pretty well.
The craftsmanship was there. There weren't really any bugs,

(02:21:41):
so for that I give it a. 4 out of 10.
Because yeah, that's just what it is for me after hearing you
talk about it. Jesus.
Yeah. Damn it, it was.
Originally A6. By lowered it, you should have
kept. It as a six.
Bitch, I would have been right, no?

(02:22:02):
Talking about this game putting me in such a bad fucking mood.
Playing this game putting me in a bad fucking mood.
I remember right after I beat itI immediately uninstalled it and
I played the Honkai Star Rail for a pallet cleanser.
And to put that into perspective, playing through the
story of Honkai Star Rail this weekend was like 20 hours of
cutscenes and 20 minutes of combat.

(02:22:23):
It was physically agonizing to experience and I use that as a
power cleanser. I can't wait.
I can't. Wait to make you play more like
narratively complex games. It fills me.
It fills me with joy is that I'm.
Going to rate. Them the.
Same do it like this one. Though I have a feeling the.
Next game might which is no. Not not to this.

(02:22:45):
Level. Not to this level, but I mean in
terms. Of two hours into it and that
game is much more like can relate with shit compared to
this game. All right, Fair enough.
Yeah. I haven't even touched it yet.
I just had AI just had a feelingthat there would be some
postmodern anti Ben. There's going to be.
Things like that. But he's not for people that

(02:23:05):
don't. Read books, he's not going to
hate him more. Than he hated this game because
the game's not as like obtuse asthis one is, yeah.
Well, Thomas. Hit us.
Yeah, this game is a fucking true piece of work.
The gameplay has some warts. There's aspects of it that I

(02:23:27):
don't like because of the inherited genetic code of games
and genres. I never liked it all to begin
with. Like I would say it works here
significantly better for me thansomething like older Resident
Evil games or Silent Hill games,but there's still these aspects

(02:23:47):
of unnecessary TDM that's hand waved away as something that's
there to build tension. But I call bullshit.
It just sucks. I will say I have a reputation
for talking shit about games that try to emulate like the low
Poly PlayStation one look, but for here this might be the first
game in like the modern day thatactually worked for me.

(02:24:12):
Part of me thinks it might just be because the color palette was
so strict and the game is so dark that it obfuscates a lot of
the stuff that I normally reallyfind unpleasant about the way
that these games kind of look. But the cutscenes look fucking
outstanding. The animations are outstanding.
I guess like the only thing I came away with the visuals of
this game is why does no one have any fucking feet?

(02:24:33):
But the narrative is where the real beast inside of this game
lives. So I wrote my final rating
diatribe before we met, but I can guarantee you that whatever
it is that we discussed on here prior to meeting is by no means
like the quote UN quote true or literal way that the story or

(02:24:56):
narrative was meant to be interpreted.
This narrative is just a fuckingcomplex cavalcade of
inspirations drawn from a litanyof sources that create this
neural network. Who's myelin sheath is so
fucking thick that it dares you to apply some form of literal
interpretation to it because youjust can't fucking do it.
But the thing that I also find beautiful about this game is

(02:25:21):
that despite the complex web that it weaves, it's still
highly approachable. Like.
I already mentioned these. Earlier, like there's a reason
why these books were front of mind.
Like this is not Infinite Jest or Gravity's Rainbow or
Finnegan's Wake or any other number of works that are like
impenetrable almost by design. There's a tremendous number of

(02:25:43):
ways that you could try to tackle what you think and what
you want to apply to this narrative.
Even though it still evades any sort of like, objective capital
T truth to it all, it's still something that I think anyone
who actually has a modicum of interest in, like stretching the
limits of their fucking reading comprehension will get something

(02:26:07):
out of this game. If you just like, disengage and
just want things spoon fed to you like a fucking toddler
sitting at their high chair, then this game is not for you.
Yes. Yes, overall.
This game might be one of the one of my favorites that we've
tashed so far. Like of the games that were like
new to me, not counting games that I was replaying or

(02:26:29):
whatever, this thing is a real fucking outstanding piece of
narrative work. Like hats off.
And it is incredibly hard for meto believe that this game was
only made by two fucking people.9 out of 10.
I thought it was going to be. Higher than a nine, Yeah.
I mean, there's a lot of would you give 1000?
Extras this. That's a good question.

(02:26:52):
I I didn't go into it here, but I actually think that thousand X
resistant this game have an unnaturally high number of
parallels in their narrative to the point it's kind of funny.
Yeah, really. Let's see.
What did I give thousand X resist cuz those games do kind
of sit next to each other on in my head. 9 1/2 I would actually
I would actually agree that I would rate this game a little

(02:27:14):
bit lower than 1000 X resist. Even though I like the narrative
of this game better. Playing thousand X resist was
more fun just because it didn't have like even though there was
less to it like the puzzles of this game were a lot of fun and
better than anything in 1000 X resist. 1000 X resist didn't
have a fucking shitty inventory system that pissed me off.
So yeah, it didn't get in its own way.

(02:27:35):
I. Think that's wild?
I actually think I. Actually enjoyed playing.
This game more than one KXR. This I mean I.
Can respect that because like 1 KXR doesn't have that much meat
on its bones. This game definitely does.
The problem is some of the meatsrancid.
Jordan yeah, I keep like. Waffling on like a specific

(02:27:57):
number because it's weird because like I don't really like
the gameplay and I don't like that the puzzles are like dumbed
down. Like the gameplay basically like
serves the narrative and like, Iwish the puzzles were a lot more
like intense and like made you basically.
I wish they were like gatekeeping for the game.
Like if so, like I think that that would resolve some of Ben's
issues with the game. If the game like made you know

(02:28:20):
what was going on then I think that that could or you just go
fuck this I'm uninstalling. That by itself would not be good
enough. It's actually a spectrum.
It's the spectrum of how hard I have to work to understand it
and what the payoff is. If the payoff is God like, I
will do the homework. If the payoff is shit.
Then the game better not ask a lot of me, sure.

(02:28:43):
And it. Failed spectacular.
Yeah, I think if I can't found. Any of the way?
Hook you. Then I think maybe you would you
would like to pay off better. But like, yeah, like to what
you're getting at, you get the payoff and then you have to
understand why it's a payoff. So I understand exactly like why
you don't like it for sure. But yeah, for me, like another
thing was like the that I mentioned with the music like.

(02:29:06):
In a lot of the games. That I think are like 10 out of
10s usually have like tearjerkermoments and like whenever then
you go back to like a song that happened during that part,
you're always like, fuck, this is tough to listen to.
But like this game, like we already talked about it, but
like it doesn't really line those things up and that it has
good music, but I don't think ituses it in those super powerful
emotional way. Yeah, but I still I.

(02:29:28):
Think like the narrative of thisgame is super good and like the
shining part of the game and like there's no issues.
I have no issues with like the narrative of the story or the
world building of the setting. I think that that's where it
excels. But I think that there's
definitely a lot to be desired on the gameplay front
specifically. So for me it's a 8.5.
I think I nailed it. Hell yeah.

(02:29:48):
Nice. All.
Right I'll. Take my one point, did you?
Like it more? Having played it a second time.
I like it more because there's more information to look around.
When I beat it the first time, literally it would have had to
be being like to go in like a discord and talk to all the
other people that beat it. And I was like, I'll just watch
a YouTube video later. And then I never did.
And then like I forgot most of the game because I beat it in

(02:30:11):
like a day and 1/2. So I my first play didn't really
influence my second one that much other than I definitely
felt around this. I like the feelings of when I
finished the game, felt around the same.
But then this time I got to actually like explore what was
going on and appreciate it a little bit more.
But like without that, it'd be like around like a probably A7.

(02:30:32):
Yeah, I think you. Said a lot of interesting stuff
there actually, and I'm still like on this quest to figure out
what it is that like draws the line for you guys with these
narrative canvases. I know you answered that
question earlier, but I drink too much wine.
I can't fucking remember what you said.

(02:30:52):
The easy. Answer is.
Just this game is interesting and those games are not.
Yeah, but that's. I mean, that's like vague,
right? I know.
That's why that's. Why?
That's easy answer I think. Here's my interpretation slash
projection. You guys will put the work into

(02:31:12):
the canvas. If there is some kind of
emotional anchor, doesn't matterwhat it is, there just has to be
something there. I think for Ben the fucking
cable snapped on the way to the ocean floor so there was just no
hope ever. Whereas I think the emotional
anchor for like you in this gamewas probably some of that like

(02:31:36):
mystery box, like Lost style, JJAbrams type shit, right?
And then as that mystery unfolded, then you started
caring about the characters a little more as you learn more.
And it's not something like likeEdith Finch where it just does a
really shit job of being both a mystery and of being this like

(02:31:58):
character expose sort of thing. That's my that's my read.
On it I can definitely say specifically.
For me, like definitely more like the more lore that you pack
in and then don't tell me, but like it's there and you have to
figure it out versus just guess like who's Lila is kind of more
just like a guess almost of likejust make it up where this game
is like everything's there. You just have to piece things

(02:32:19):
together and really like find everything and understand the
influences. And then like people can like
talk about that versus just be like, here's what I think
happened and then you just talk about nothing for two hours
basically and see that. See that's.
The interesting thing to me is that I actually disagree with
that, because I actually think that while there are definitely
like like ways to interpret objectively some things that

(02:32:43):
happened in this game, it reallydoes resist any kind of like
literal. Translation.
Literal interpretation like muchmore.
So. Than I think any of the games
we've played, right? Like even Edith Finch.
Edith Finch tells you straight up what happens at every point
in that game. Like, it doesn't really.
I like to Edith Finch. Better than this game that's

(02:33:04):
cringe. Yeah, for me, it's literally
just like the lore and the details of the lore
specifically, like the deeper the world.
Like this feels like a world. Like it literally just feels
like we're watching a world thatis like there and exists and all
the details are there and then you just have to figure them
out. Who's lie left feels like a
story that someone told me and just fucking pick the details to

(02:33:26):
fucking tell me and they just held the rest out.
Yeah, that's because that. Guy just fucking wrote a bunch
of shit in the ChatGPT and said write this like David Lynch.
So I'm like. The the game that I like
resonate almost the most narratively is fucking like void
stranger because of like there'sso much shit in that game and
it's all over the fucking place and you have to piece everything
together. So like that's kind of the

(02:33:46):
difference for me. If it's telling you like
extrapolate information and thenjust figure things out, like
who's Lila? Like who's Lila doesn't really
have shit that's like hidden anywhere.
It's just kind of like here's like a concept.
What do you think of the conceptwhere this game is like what's
going on? What does this mean?
What does that mean? What is this?
What is that? That's the shit that I like.
All right. Duly noted.

(02:34:12):
Is it my turn? It's your turn.
I've been. So obscenely curious what you
guys thought my score of this game would be going into this,
and I'm sorry that I didn't write more in the discord chat.
I was just too busy thinking andresearching and listening to the
fucking videos for the third time in order to actually have

(02:34:32):
an understanding of this game. I.
Really like media that feels like it's speaking to me and
that sounds gay as hell, but I do mean it.
Like quite literally. I haven't felt like a game was
talking to me directly since I watched Maniac, which I don't

(02:34:53):
think what about. Hell or Charlotte where you
thought it was. Talking to you maybe if
Alistair's. Name was Seth.
It would be different. Yeah, sorry.
Keep. Going yeah.
Like Maniac. Is a a Netflix show, Jonah Hill,
Emma Stone, that's like another deep dive into like the

(02:35:15):
psychology of people and like why they like match and like
friends, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to go into it, but
the point of it is that there were like characters and scenes
in that show that felt like theywere describing things in are
describing things that I experienced in ways that I could

(02:35:35):
never think of how to describe them.
This game did that the exact same way with two things that
were concepts, but I just didn'tknow until I had a game put them
in front of me. And those two concepts were
synchronicity and para Idola I'dlike.
Those are just things that I experienced regularly of like
seeing patterns in nothing and feeling like a schizophrenic

(02:35:55):
sometime that I like. I feel like I have to fight
against sometimes and it's just really nice to play a game that
feels like it understands that side of me and can like.
Help me. Like verbalize it in its own
unique narrative and setting. All of that is gay as hell, but
it's. Like Thomas.

(02:36:15):
Said this game has some more. It's like Ben said, there's some
parts of this game that are justcompletely ludicrously
postmodern. Stupid fucking abstract
bullshit. But abstract isn't necessarily
bad. Abstract can be good.
I am a fervent defender of the last season of Lost.

(02:36:37):
I fucking love shit cringe. When it has.
A point that it's trying to make, and I don't know if we've
done any other game for Tash. I don't think we have.
Maybe Balder's Gate 3 that felt like it had this much love
poured into it. Like Thomas.
Said. I think that it is an absolute

(02:36:59):
fucking feat of fucking human achievement that two people made
this game. That is absolutely absurd to me.
I like this game. I don't know if I like playing
this game more than Clare Obscure, but I think that the
narrative is actually better than Clare Obscure and I will.
I will fight on that hill. I think that the only other game

(02:37:24):
that I played that has a narrative as cohesive as this is
Outer Wilds. Therefore.
I'm gonna put it probably in my top five games and give it a 10
out of 10. Damn, that's.
Based. I did not think you're gonna go
that high. Yeah, I thought the gameplay.
Was gonna was gonna lay anywhereI was.
I thought you were gonna really,really like the narrative, but

(02:37:45):
the gameplay was gonna suck too much.
I got to. Say it.
Started off really weak when I Ilost like an hour of save
because of that fucking bullshitbut then I remembered that one
of my other 10 out of 10 games does the same thing with near
automata and that game is way worse with that shit.
So I had to give that some leeway and.
I don't know. All of the parts that I disliked

(02:38:06):
about the gameplay in this game eventually wore off and I don't
know, I might play this game again.
So. I'm going to.
I'm going to. Say something that I think is
important, which is I don't think that when you are
interpreting like the messaging and the themes and the concepts

(02:38:31):
and the just overall like what agame is and what it's about
should be something that feels gay.
In fact, I think it's gay to saythat that's gay because what I
think is important. Especially.
In art that is abstracted to thedegree that this one is, is that

(02:38:53):
it's not something that you should just like consume and
then like hold your Dick in yourhand as you think about Carl
Jung and like the way that the psychology of this game applies
academically. What's important and why I think

(02:39:13):
I like doing this stuff or this like these sort of narrative
exercises at all is because what's important is taking those
readings, taking those concepts,taking those themes and then
circling them around back into your own life and thinking about
the ways that how the narrative,how the art, how the game, how

(02:39:38):
the whatever explores it in sucha way that you can alley it to
your own like lived experience And like thinking back on it.
I think that is like personally,like one of the reasons for me
that like Hello, Charlotte wasn't like a 10 out of 10
series for me is because I was just really far away from the

(02:40:01):
lived experience of what that game is and what it's themes
are. Portraying that like that part
of it was really hard for me to attach it myself to.
But with this game, that's not true.
There's a lot of things in this game that I think the average
person. Can read into and apply to their
own life in order to like further their depth of

(02:40:24):
understanding of who they are aspeople and where they are in the
world. And that's why I will.
Always push. Back on the idea that trying to
like interpret the themes and the narrative of a game is like
gay postmodern cringe, because Ithink it's a tool for

(02:40:44):
understanding yourself as a person.
And when a game, when I can walkaway from a game like this
understanding myself better thanwhen I started, it's
automatically going to be like an important facet of my life
because it's just going to take the circle of my lived
experience and poke a hole in itand make the radius that much
bigger. And that's why no one should

(02:41:08):
ever say it's gay to read into the themes of the game, because
that shit's important. I wanted to.
Comment on that because this game did not make me cry, Claire
Obscure did, but I'm rating thisgame higher than Claire Obscure.
And I think one reason for that is that well #1 as I was like

(02:41:29):
thinking about the game today and just like considering
everything after I actually had understanding of everything, I I
like was tearing up a little bitand I fucking might cry tonight.
I don't know as I'm thinking about this game.
But what I can tell you without a doubt, if someone lost a
partner that they had or like like a family member or

(02:41:50):
something that they had to like pull the plug on or like had
cancer or something like that, this game would fucking destroy
them that they, they would not survive.
They would be dead. Yeah, you're.
You're honest, you're honestly just an anti intellectual fuck
up if you can't figure out how this game could like emotionally
resonate with people. Damn, I good.
I I know yeah, that was a good. That's a good.

(02:42:14):
Call out though Seth, you sayingthat gave me fucking goosebumps.
Yeah, like, like. Seriously, put yourself in the
shoes of someone that went through that shit and you will
think of the ending very differently I think.
Yeah, that's fucked up. Yeah, again.
Like, there's just a myriad of ways you could read into this
game and apply it to who you are.

(02:42:35):
That's a really good point. By that, that's I.
Mean again though, like that's the type of shit that I think
you need to do with games like this is figure out how they can
like broadly apply to like people emotionally.
Like, does anything in this gameapply to my life?
Like personally, individually, on like a granular level?

(02:42:58):
No, what the fuck? But I have this nasty E word
empathy which will like make it so that I can see how this might
affect other people. And the byproduct of that is
that it allows it to affect me as well, which is why shit like
this and shit like Hello Charlotte like mean a lot to me

(02:43:18):
as I like, play them or read them or whatever.
I mean, it's not like. I don't understand that people
love this game and I don't. It's not like I don't understand
why. I just don't.
I mean, I think it's OK to. Like grade it based off of your
own experiences. Oh yeah, I don't give a shit.
If you hate this game. Everyone's free to.
Hate whatever the fuck they wantto hate, it's just a matter of

(02:43:40):
like. I don't know, I.
Think it's really fucking cringeto look down on people that I
want to like, read into something from a more like
outside of the game perspective and apply some sort of, I don't
know, psychological, philosophical, academic,
whatever reading into it. Thomas, you want to.

(02:44:02):
Close us out with announcement for the next game.
Sure, I picked the game off. I didn't realize I was going to
have to do an outro because I haven't actually picked a game
in about two months I think. So it is a remake of a old I

(02:44:24):
believe, maybe could be wrong, RPG Maker game from the late
2000s. Kind of a cult classic.
Has a soundtrack that is legendary within the biz.
And like I said, Remake just came out I think this past
August and I had never played itbefore even though I've heard
many good things. So we will be playing the game

(02:44:45):
off. Bye.