July 24, 2025 • 59 mins
In this episode of ‘The Aging Well Podcast’ originally aired on the ‘…We Have a Spiritual Problem’ podcast (@WeHaveASpiritualProblem). Host Dr. Jeff Armstrong is joined by Teopixqui Dez. Dez shares the origin story of the Colorado Psychedelic Church, detailing his personal journey from depression to discovering the healing power of psychedelics. He discusses the intersection of spirituality and science, emphasizing the importance of purpose and reverence when engaging with psychedelics. Dez also highlights the significance of community and the concept of 'PACK life' in fostering connection and healing. The conversation concludes with reflections on personal growth through discomfort and the transformative power of shared experiences. Dez and Dr. Armstrong explore the intersection of self-reflection, spirituality, and community. They discuss the importance of recognizing oneself as a miracle, the universal truths that form the foundation of their community, and the role of psychedelics in healing spiritual disconnection. The dialogue also delves into the differences between therapy and spiritual counseling, transformative experiences within spiritual practices, and the potential for psychedelic spirituality to influence mainstream religions. Ultimately, they envision a future where psychedelic spirituality becomes a recognized path for healing and connection.To connect with Teopixqui Dez and learn more about the Colorado Psychedelic Church visit https://www.coloradopsychedelicchurch.com/Please, support The Aging Well Podcast by hitting the ‘like’ button, subscribing/following the podcast, sharing with a friend, and….
BUY the products you need to… age well from our trusted affiliates and support the mission of ‘The Aging Well Podcast’*.
The Aging Well Podcast merchandise | Show how you are aging well | Use the promocode AGING WELL for free shipping on orders over $75 | https://theagingwellpodcast-shop.fourthwall.com/promo/AGINGWELL
Rebalance Health | products created by hormone health experts to lower cortisol, improve sleep, and minimize the impact of stress on the body and mind | Use promo code AGINGWELL for 20% discount at https://rebalancehealth.com
Prolon | The Fasting Mimicking Diet (FMD) is a revolutionary five-day nutrition program scientifically formulated to mimic the effects of a prolonged water fast while still allowing nourishment - supporting the benefits of fasting without the challenges and risks that come from water-only fasts. | For the best available discount always use this link: https://prolonlife.com/theagingwellpodcast
L-Nutra Health | The medical division of L-Nutra, focused on helpingpeople manage and potentially reverse chronic health conditions, like type 2diabetes, prediabetes, insulin resistance, and obesity, using personalized,lifestyle-based programs grounded in evidence, not prescriptions. | Use thislink: https://l-nutrahealth.com/theagingwellpodcast
Thrive25—Your personal longevity advisor | https://www.thrive25.com/early-access?via=william-jeffrey
Fusionary Formulas | Combining Ayurvedic wisdom with Western science for optimal health support. | 15% off Code: AGINGWELL | https://fusionaryformulas.com/
Jigsaw Health | Trusted supplements. “It’s fun to feel good.” | Click the following link for 10% off: https://www.jigsawhealth.com/?rfsn=8710089.1dddcf3&utm_source=refersion&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=8710089.1dddcf3
Auro Wellness | Glutaryl—Antioxidant spray that delivers high doses of glutathione (“Master Antioxidant”) | 10% off Code: AGINGWELL at https://aurowellness.com/?ref=1957
Dr Lewis Nutrition | Fight neurodegeneration and cognitive decline
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Aging Well podcast, where we explore the
science stories and strategies that help us to live longer,
healthier, and more purposeful lives.
I am your host, Doctor Jeff Armstrong.
This episode is a replay of an episode of the We Have a
Spiritual Problem podcast. My guest is to Hopa Key Dez,
pastor of the Colorado Psychedelic Church, a community
that blends sacred plant medicine with spiritual practice
(00:26):
in the heart of modern America. As debates rage over
legalization, mental health, andthe ethics of altered states,
Pastor Days offers perspective rooted in ritual, tradition, and
the search for divine connection.
Psychedelics have a long historyin spiritual practice among
semantic tribes, indigenous groups, and early civilizations.
(00:46):
Psychedelic assistance Psychotherapy is now an emerging
therapeutic approach that combines the use of psychedelics
and psychotherapy for the treatment of Post Traumatic
Stress disorder and treatment resistant depression.
Are psychedelics a spiritual cure we've forgotten or a
dangerous detour? Can they help us to age well?
(01:07):
Can you just share your the origin story of the Colorado
Psychedelic Church? And what spiritual problem were
you trying to address when you found it?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So the kind of back story all about this is, you know, three
years ago I woke up and was ready to opt out, ready to kill
myself. I was not not lost in my
(01:27):
depression. I wasn't overwhelmed by life.
I was just simply not happy. And the clarity of that moment
was terrifying because it wasn'ta today's bad day.
If I just get through this day, It was just this numbness,
Right? Yeah.
I pride myself on being more of a scientist.
You know, I'm like, OK, I did counseling for years.
(01:49):
I have my degrees in psychology.I said, OK, if somebody told me
this, I would tell them, OK, onelast try, you know, if you're
really that certain, one last try.
So this is when we're starting to get a lot more of the
research coming back up about the effects of psilocybin
mushrooms on its actual ability to combat depression and
anxiety. So I was like, you know, I'm
going to do it. I'm going to go online, I'm
(02:10):
going to order these spores and I'm going to illegally grow
these mushrooms because if I'm ready to die, what what else do
I really have to lose? It took you know, 6 to 8 weeks
to actually get some mushrooms grown up.
In that time I'm doing all this reading and the day came and I
said, OK, these are going to make me better or I'm going to
be more confident in my decision.
(02:32):
Well, I'm here today. I'm here today because obviously
those mushrooms saved my life and I do just two grams small,
the small trip once a month to go ahead and kind of get my
brain regulated here in Colorado, SB-23290, which
decriminalized, you know, cell cyber mushrooms, DMT, BOGA and
(02:53):
mescaline. That was going to go into effect
earlier this year. So I'm sorry, last year I
thought it'd be fun to maybe open up a little sport shop, you
know, kind of say, hey, mushrooms did something for me.
Maybe I can be a part of this movement.
So I'm sitting at my bar, I havemy 2 grams of mushroom tea and
I, I take that and, you know, 20minutes, 25 minutes.
(03:13):
And oh, oh, yeah, yeah, there itis.
Starting to feel that in my eyesa little bit, right?
I stand up, I get 2 steps and all of a sudden I find myself in
this forest. Now, I don't know.
I don't know if I misweighed it.I don't know.
I don't know why 2 grams should have been lay in bed, watch a
movie, giggle for a few hours and be fine.
But there I am standing in this forest.
(03:34):
There I am, you know, maybe 1015feet from me, the silhouette
3D2D figure. It's a shadow of a person, but
there's No Fear. I remember the feeling of the
sun on my scalp that the smell of the grass and my nostrils
like it was, it was all of thesedifferent experiences.
Well, I see this figure, it stands up because it was
(03:56):
crouched over. And I realized, OK, it's a
person. It's a person.
The head turns towards me and the second our eyes meet,
there's the whole conversation. Of course I'm Mexico.
You're one of my ancestors. You use these and I realize the
ground is covered in grass and mushrooms.
These big like almost like cartoon vibrant mushrooms.
You use these to heal your people.
(04:17):
And I'm supposed to do the same?I'm not spiritual.
The universe is supposed to be in psychology and science and
logic. And you know what?
I will tell you that I spend more of my life as a a rather
shitty atheist as, you know, somebody who would proselytize.
This lack of faith against people who are proselytizing
like that somehow made me better, You know, you become
(04:38):
what you hate in that sense. Yeah.
Yeah. Next morning, I wake up, I'm in
bed upstairs. I don't even remember how I got
upstairs, you know, And I had a panic attack that pretty much
lasted a whole day, A whole day of what the heck was that?
I don't, I don't speak Spanish. You know, like I'm Mexican, my
(04:59):
dad worked, you know, 60-70 hours for the family.
He's awesome, he's incredible, but it came at a cost.
And I, I did not, I was not raised with my culture like
that. So to have this sudden like, why
would the universe, what, what was this?
Why that why it kind of send me into a spiral.
And in that moment, and I'm to kind of tie that together, in
that moment, I'm realizing I don't have spirituality, that I
(05:22):
am I am devoid of this like in my, in my absence of being
raised with the, the like Judy, my mother, the Catholicism of my
father, I don't have a good foundation there.
And I filled that void with thisatheism, right?
But I follow psychology, you know, and that that is a form of
science. That is something that we're
saying that, you know, as we understand the world, these are
(05:44):
these rules. And that sounds kind of like
faith as well, right? So as I'm wrestling with this,
what is this? What is this literally mid panic
attack, mid SOB and I just stop.And it's just clarity.
It's like, OK, but I have the answer.
The answer is to go like help toheal, to do something.
Why am I getting caught up on the question?
Is the question really that important if I have this answer?
(06:05):
Because somewhere between the, the hard science of taking a,
you know, psychedelic plant or fungus and having that throat,
these hallucinations in my mind,synesthesia, inter intercepting
these different senses and making experience this kind of
kaleidoscope of emotions and sensations.
(06:28):
On this side of it, the physicality that I pilot, the
what I am is bound by a set sense of senses.
And what if this opens up that cockpit and you're able to come
out as The Who you are and The Who you are is tied to different
senses. So what if on this side of it,
my who, my soul, whatever you want to call that was displaced
and and was able to interact with somebody through what the
(06:51):
what is constrained by time? So what if I met an ancestor in
a timeless place who probably was also tripping and that's why
we were able to meet and wrestling with that and realize
that the truth is somewhere here.
That's somewhere in between thatthat's what happened.
And in that moment, like my spirituality was born this idea.
(07:12):
But OK, what if there really is no distinction between the
psychological and the spiritual?What if it's kind of like Mad
Libs where we have this concept and we all put different words
in there and to stop and to think that I, I realized that
it's, it's not a matter of finding faith.
It's a matter of recognizing it because it's already there.
There's already something insideof you that answers unanswerable
(07:34):
things, that looks for the invisible threads that kind of
tie things together. Because we recognize that the
world is only as understood as we understand.
If you're enjoying the Aging Well podcast, be sure to like,
subscribe or follow on your favorite platform so you will
never miss an episode episode. And if you find our
conversations helpful, please share the podcast with a friend
(07:56):
because aging is something we'reall doing and we're better at
doing it together. And support our guests in this
podcast financially by visiting the affiliate links in the
episode description below and use the links or codes provided
for discounts on products we have vetted and feel comfortable
recommending to our valued viewers and listeners.
Thank you. And now back to the podcast.
And, you know, to stop and to think that tell George
(08:17):
Washington a giant lizard roam the earth and he would say no.
And science at the time would say no because they hadn't found
them yet. You know, this idea that that
what if spirituality isn't a pigeonhole?
What if it isn't this clear ideaof something metaphysical,
something aerial? But what if it is this idea that
(08:39):
it's also science? It's also this other like it's
all these other things that we like to use at the counter
without realizing. It's all the thank you that to
take care of yourself spiritually, to take care of
yourself psychologically, to take care of the, the fullness
of finding what it is to connectwith the universe.
However, that is, is mirrored inthe fulfillment found in the,
(09:00):
the validation of education and in, in that validation of logic.
You know, and to, to go from that here in the basement of my
house to realize, OK, I'm going to grow some mushrooms.
I'm going to use these laws to to legally connect people with
these natural medicines and hopefully open up, you know,
open up people's mind, open up people's hearts, whatever the
(09:22):
Wellness they find is isn't for me to decide.
The universe is going to figure that out.
But I sure as hell did not make,you know, a cup of tea with the
idea of OK, connect me with my ancestors.
You know, that was a cup of tea that I drank kind of not
begrudgingly, but the taste isn't great because I don't want
to. I don't want to be depressed.
But then have that be the momentthat said OK does.
(09:43):
Are you listening now? We're what, February, March,
April, May? So we're 15 months, 15 months
into the Colorado psychedelic church, 15 months of building
community, of connecting people with spirituality.
And I don't have to preach. I don't have to proselytize.
I don't have to sit down and force someone to sit, like sit
in front of me and say this is the way the universe is.
(10:05):
All I have to say is here's a tool.
You know, this tool has education that comes with it
because without it, it's a weapon and you're going to hurt
yourself. But to recognize that this tool
can open the door to this inbound unending source of
knowledge and clarity. And all you have to do is take
care of yourself. Go through that and then
integrate how simple, how simple.
(10:26):
Because in that one, like simplemotion, you're going to be able
to start finding that spiritual Wellness that like, OK, there is
something out there and I'm connected to it as well as
again, that psychological Wellness of and my depression
can go, go find somewhere else to be.
Yeah. And the church was born.
The church was born. The church was born.
(10:47):
So you've kind of touched aroundthe edges of it, but how do you
define spiritual? I would say spiritual is what
your connection is with the unknown, period, full stop.
Period, full stop. And that means that that's what
is the unknown in space that we can't ever get to.
Well, we have science and we have logic to kind of build an
idea of what that is. That's faith, that's spiritual,
(11:10):
that's spirituality. That's just as valid as the idea
that I am a who and a what, but or that there's something above
me or beneath me or something beside whatever it may be.
Spiritual is the the I don't have a clear answer.
So how can I find 1, You know, and maybe the difference there
specifically with spirituality is an acknowledgement that we
(11:32):
have to kind of silence the ego a little bit to recognize that
that answer is going to exist with or without us, right?
You know, we can't necessarily create that.
We have to find it. And that's very much the
definition I kind of use on thispodcast because I, I want people
to understand that, you know, spirituality is far beyond our
religious dogma, doctrine, whichever slide you want to
(11:56):
approach it, you know, because it's bigger than ourselves and
it's smaller than ourselves. That's what's so wild.
And that's why, you know, we were talking, you know, before
we started recording about the connection of the physical and
the spiritual. To me, it's like you start
studying quantum physics and you're realizing how small the
universe really is. But then you also look at, like,
(12:16):
astrophysics, and it's like how big the universe is.
And the universe keeps getting bigger, but it keeps getting
smaller. And somewhere in between all of
that material is something, and that's something has to be the
spiritual. And the more that all comes
together, I think the more we start to really grow as human
beings. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
(12:39):
You know, it's almost like the human nature to find and plug
answers in regardless that they fit, you know, So it's
reclaiming that sense of wonder almost by finding our
spirituality and sharing that and helping other people realize
that it doesn't need the rigidity, right?
It doesn't need the the dogmaticrigidity of a structure.
(12:59):
This has been around religion. Spirituality is personal.
You know, I'd be very mindful ofsomebody else who's telling me
what my message from the universe is.
You know, I think that's a big red flag.
We did a a recent episode in this podcast where I interviewed
Lauren Axelrod and the the topicwas experiencing kind of
(13:20):
duality. I think that was what we called
it, but it was the basic premiseof it was she had a, a friend
who had had a stroke and was left with, she could only say 2
words, fuck and wow. And her friends were all
concerned about it. She was like, no, this is
incredible, this is awesome. And I mean what express?
And we just kind of talked aboutthe whole expression, how those
(13:40):
two words, you know how spiritual those two words can be
if you really approach it the right way.
And I'm trying to say it too many times so I don't have to
bleep it out more than once. You know, it's something we
talked about here in the space. So one of the accessible in
natural medicines here is dimethyltryptamine.
You know, the spirit molecule, right?
(14:02):
DMT is awesome. And I mean that that word
literally. Like, have you ever been struck
by actual awe? Like to stop and to look at
something or to perceive it at the very least, colors, motions,
a connection, a vibrancy, A resonance, whatever it is.
And to be truly awestruck. You know, that's a word I tell
(14:26):
people I want to think of how casually.
Oh, that's awesome. No, I want you to truly
experience awesome. So how important is it to have
that spiritual connection or thepsychological?
Because I think we can look at kind of the physical, if if you
call psychological, physical, I think psychology kind of fits in
the middle of that psychology, yeah, spiritual, physical
(14:49):
science. But how important is it to have
that connection, whether it be spiritual or some physical
connection when you're partakingof psychedelics?
Because, you know, I grew up in the 70s and I had, you know, I
didn't, they weren't necessarilyfriends of mine, but I went to
high school with a lot of peoplethat, you know, are talking like
shrooms, man. But they were taking it with,
(15:11):
without any kind of direct purpose.
It was just the trip. And, you know, when talking with
Neil Markey, I mentioned before him from Beckley retreats, you
know, he talks about using it really therapeutically.
And I think, you know, from the spiritual side, you're doing the
same thing with the church, but that it's important to do it in
a controlled setting and not just simply, you know, because
(15:34):
not everybody's going to, you know, have that realization like
you had when you just stepped into the forest.
Exactly. Some people can take too much
and then just totally freak out and not know what to do and it
can cause them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, you know, this is kind of a kind of a hard line to look
at, right? Because on one side of it, we
have to have structure. We have to have safety.
(15:56):
We have to make sure that peoplearen't taking, I'm going to take
4G and go for a walk. No, you are not Absolutely not.
You know, but but again, that wesay that this needs to be
sterile and clinical and or, or,or this has to be ceremonial.
This has to be done with a guideand it has to be, see, that's
(16:18):
the hard part there, because themaking sure that people build
this connection with this medicine.
And a part of the connection hasto be the respect and the
understanding of like, you know,you can't just, you can't just
do this Willy nilly that you have to on some root level,
approach it with reverence. You know, here in our space, we
talk about revelry. You know, we don't trip, we
don't get messed up. We revel.
(16:39):
We, we look at our existence anddo exactly what we're meant to
do, enjoy it. That doesn't mean partying.
It can, it absolutely can. Like let me stress that.
Like take some mushrooms, put yourself in a safe place around
the right people and have a little party.
Absolutely. But revelry can look like
meditation. It can look like you and I
crying over tearing open old wounds and talking about some
(17:02):
hard things to know in our heartthat at the end they're going to
be healed. Like revelry doesn't always feel
good, but it's always a step in the right direction.
You know, we're repairing The Who, we're repairing the what.
We're sitting down and making sure that we're putting purpose
behind it. So I think maybe that's, you
know, if I had a side on one side of it, yes, you have to
have intention. You have to have purpose, right?
(17:25):
But I want to make sure that people understand that that also
just like your spirituality thatcan look like what you want it
to be. I don't think there's a lot of
respect to be shown taking 6 grams of mushrooms and going
out, you know, to the mall to walk around and see all the
colors. No, that, that that's not that's
not reverence, right? But if you tell yourself that
(17:45):
maybe you want to go out for a hike or you want to go get
comfortable in your bed or you want to sit down in a nice Lotus
pose and like, you know, meditate, I don't, I don't care.
Like if you're doing it, you're doing it right, you're doing it
save. That's the right answer.
So it sounds like purpose and reverence are the two key
components to doing this, right?And whether you're doing it for
psychological purposes or doing it for spiritual purposes or
(18:07):
just doing it for, you know, personal relaxation and, you
know. Revelry.
Yeah. So how you define your community
as a community of PACK life? And the PACK is an acronym.
What do you mean by this? Yeah, so the the first part is
that we're social creatures. We evolved from a pack animals.
(18:30):
You know, we have no claws, no fangs.
We have no fur, we have no scales.
So how did our ancestors look atthis world and survive, you
know, together? They did it together.
They looked at each other without the ability to form
words and said, and you looked at me and went and we both knew
that went hungry and you went together and we both went out
(18:52):
there. You know, we are packed
creatures. And what does that provide us?
Protection. There's safety in numbers, not
just from the without, but from within.
As we become close, as we have lost our connection with people
and community, we've lost the safety net of having people able
to recognize when we're stumbling or falling even when
we don't recognize it. You know, people don't wake up
(19:15):
lost in the void of their their depression or their anxiety.
That's a process. And for people to to be isolated
and to not be around other who would normally say, Hey, are you
OK? And having that be the thing to
be like, Oh my God, no, I am not.
That's that protection aspect. You know, if there's also
passion, there's power. There's this ability to know
(19:35):
that in returning to who we are,we're regaining this now.
We have acceptance here. It's not blind acceptance.
It's, you know, the idea that we're building a garden.
This is peace and peace isn't found.
It's cultivated. It's worth protecting.
It's worth putting boundaries. It's worth wedding, you know, so
acceptance isn't blind. It's done with accountability.
(19:57):
It's done with an acknowledgement that you were
going to be held accountable, right?
It's about making it accessible here.
We. Communication, being social
creatures were designed to talk,you know, are there hard
conversations? Absolutely.
Do you think in 15 months I haven't had to have that talk
with someone of, hey, you're really fucked, you're really
(20:18):
messing things up right now. And to not say that in a place
of hate, but to say like, I'm worried for you, I know you can
do this. Like what can we do to have that
conversation, even if it's awkward, you know, it's
important because it's done withcompassion.
It's done with that recognition that is someone I'm supposed to
cooperate with. All of these things allow us to
(20:40):
live a life that act on moments of I, Ross.
Now, Kai Ross is a Grecian term referring to an opportune
moment. It's not like fate.
It's not like destiny. These things are a little too.
You're a passenger in your own life.
For me, if I'm going to be honest, the miracle of my
existence, the miracle of your existence of all of us, the idea
that any of its predetermined kind of cheapens it.
(21:02):
So what is Kairos? Kairos, are these opportune
moments, millions of years of momentum and motivation,
millions of years of people's ambition saying, OK, it's your
turn, what do you do? So even this conversation right
here, if I look at the first e-mail being like, oh, I'm
really busy, I'll get back to that later and I never do.
Or your end or whatever it is. I mean, the weather could be
(21:23):
really bad and the power could go out and this couldn't happen.
Whatever it is, all these thingslined up to make this moment
right here happen because what if this here is the thing that
gives somebody out there a moment of clarity?
It's like, okay, you know what healing is possible.
Okay, maybe things are getting better.
Maybe with despite all of the hate and the the malice in the
world, there are people out herewho want to like have the right
kind of righteous fire to stand against this.
(21:45):
And what if that gives somebody strength?
This Kyros can save lives, and all of that together is PAC
life. Cool, I like and I like that the
you know, the the letters aren'tjust as forced.
OK, PAC sounds good. So let's come up with, you know,
a word that fits all of these that you have this stack of
words that all kind of spell to that purpose and and kind of all
(22:09):
lead to that Chios. So that's kind of cool And I
like that principle because I I mean, I have I have a blog.
It's called Carpe Carpe Memento that, you know, it's really just
focused on, you know, my, my belief that you, we are where we
are in this moment. Whatever happened in the past
brought us here. That shit doesn't matter that
(22:29):
it's all about what are we goingto do now with this circumstance
that I'm in and what's going to happen.
And it's one reason, like right now, so many people are so
stressed out over all the stuff and positive or negative,
whichever side of the political aisle you're on or not on,
there's so much stress about what's going on in the country.
(22:50):
And I'm like, oh man, this is this is good because it's
leading to something. We are going to have a big
awakening in this country if we just pay attention and we just
start looking at each other and say how can I help one another?
Yeah. And, you know, doing this with
good boundaries, doing this withgood accountability, doing this
allows us to extend this garden.You know, I'm kind of a national
(23:13):
level. I mean, I, I am a lot of people
are scared and hurting right now.
A lot of people are. And you know what?
I think that they're, they're right to be.
I'm a gay Mexican Jew, you know,like I, I have my whole life has
definitely been one on the, the receiving end of whatever slur
you could think of for those 3 categories.
My place right here, right now, my stance is very loud and that
(23:36):
is I am offering healing as an act of defiance for everything
that would make sure that you stay frail, right?
And that healing, be it psychological, spiritual, will
allow you to become empowered. You know, that is so important
right now, building these communities, connecting people
with spirituality they don't realize they don't have.
(23:57):
But it's inside of them already,you know?
I mean, imagine finding out today that all of us had wings
and we just couldn't see them, You know, that we've been able
to fly this whole time. But we've been told so much, so
often that the idea has just never crossed our mind.
Yeah. He just, he just gave me a
horrible time. Yeah, if you told somebody.
(24:18):
So a gay Mexican Jew walks into a mushroom bar and starts a
church. You know.
Like, OK, what's the punch line?No, no headline.
It's on PBS right now. Check it out.
You know, and I'm happy to see that all of this, the talks of
(24:42):
spirituality, the talks of psychedelics, the talk of all
this becoming more normal, right?
Where we're destigmatizing it, even even the idea of
alternative spirituality outsideof like more traditional with
no, you know, no disrespect, traditional theology.
When you say that you have a personal faith or something that
is not traditional, there's always the like, oh, kind of the
(25:04):
like the little side smirk. But now, now we, we really have
this idea that like, oh, cool, like either maybe I want to know
more or I don't. It's not a like, oh, cool,
whatever. It's like, oh, that's neat.
You know, there is this radical acceptance over the past few
years of people who are saying, you know, what if we just open
our mind to these different ideas and finding our allies,
(25:27):
our brothers, our sisters, our kin, you know, who are finding
their spirituality, finding things through, you know, via
through meditation or through psychedelic mushrooms, that's
making the world better and, andgreeting them.
You know, we're seeing such a good sense of unity.
And I do have to thank all this hate.
In a weird way, I have to thank all this fire and all this hate
(25:49):
because it has shown us that we need to look at each other as
kin to draw good boundaries. But to realize what do we have
in common? Do neither of us have, you know,
malice in our heart? Then let's work together.
Let's share our spirituality. Let's grow right and in a place
here where people are told specifically you're the
universe's message for you is personal.
So your message is not going to be like anybody else's.
(26:10):
And then to watch people share it.
OK, to watch people share their individual faiths in this space
and never once have a like crossed into proselytizing.
Oh my God, it tells you the growth.
It tells you the growth of our like general acceptance of all
of. This, yeah.
You know what a time to be alive.
That's what my social media director says.
What a time to be alive. It actually is, it really is.
(26:35):
You know, it's, I mean, it's gotits moments, but you know,
without the, and I teach exercise science, so, you know,
I'm always going to kind of the exercise Physiology references
to, to growth and stuff like that.
And, and without overload, without the tension in life,
there's no growth. There's, you know, if we don't
stimulate ourselves, we don't push ourselves beyond our normal
(26:58):
boundaries, what are we doing here?
I mean, there's no growth. And so we have to have those,
you know, social struggles. We have to have, you know, the
hurts in our lives so that we look at ourselves and look at
others. And, you know, I mentioned my
friend Jay, you know, who gave me the the SPIES acronym.
He could have looked back in ourhistory and said, yeah, that guy
(27:18):
was an asshole in school. I don't have anything to do with
him. But the reality is he, he
couldn't even remember. I mean, he was like first time
we had a phone conversation after probably 40 some odd
years. He's like, now I'm trying to
remember, were you one of those persons that you weren't one of
those people that picked on me in school?
And I'm like, well, Jay, yeah, Ikind of was.
It was like, but you know, it was OK because it's like we're
(27:43):
different people now and and we've both grown from that.
And he's who he is, you know, and I'm who I am.
Yeah. Would it be nice to go back and
not do some of those things? Yeah, it'd be great.
But you're not going to. You're going to be different now
and the world would be different.
You know, I always often ask that question, you know, what
(28:03):
would you do if you could go back in time and change one
thing? What would you do?
And for me, it's like nothing because if I change anything,
I'm changing the trajectory of just so many different lives.
Yeah. And so just accept where you're
at now and and move. Just don't be an asshole now.
Yeah, you could have been an asshole in the past, but don't
be on now. And, and how wonderful, how
(28:25):
wonderful is it to look back at who you were and to be a little
ashamed? Yeah, how wonderful is it to
look back and cringe because that means that that person is
not who you are, that you can look at that person and be like,
Nah, dude, that's no, it's a really uncomfortable blessing,
right? You guys have comfortable
blessings. Yeah, somebody told me it's
(28:46):
growth is found in the discomfort of our existence.
It's a good quote. And I was like, oh, I like that.
I like that. It's pretty cool.
It's definitely hearing a lot, alot of good stuff, a lot of good
stuff to kind of plant seeds, kind of make you start thinking,
I haven't thought of it in that direction or something.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's again, the
point of this podcast is to kindof plant those deeds, get people
(29:08):
thinking outside of their their spiritual boxes.
And I'm looking forward to having some, you know, people
that identify as atheists on there.
One of my next guest was my old roommate when I lived in New
York and we went to church together.
And it was a church that, you know, by many means people would
classify it as a cult. It was a very legalistic church
(29:28):
and, you know, we were there at the same time and it took us to
two very different places. But spiritually, we're both
still very much on the same page.
It's just, you know, I still attend church.
He doesn't. And, you know, he, he's labels
himself as an atheist agnostic. And, you know, I, I've come to
believe in a much bigger God, you know, and, you know, so it's
(29:51):
like, how do we get to these twodifferent spots but still kind
of be in the same spot? And so go ahead.
No, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's that, it's that, that's,
that's so it's interesting to see what people build with the
same tools, you know, and especially when they build
something that also works, you know, it's different when
(30:12):
Someone Like You took something traumatic out of it,
unfortunately, or had something traumatic out of it.
But I, I would be interested to know what people find like if
you had a view personally, I mentioned mad lips.
You know, if you take time everyday, you take 5 minutes a day to
reflect on yourself to, you know, kind of calm your mind.
What do you call that? Do you call that prayer?
(30:33):
Do you call that meditation? Do you call that cognitive
behavioral therapy? Do you call, you know, what do
you whatever you call that, thatactive effort, You know that mad
Lib bug it in there, But you're taking that active act of self
reverence, right? I'm curious to see like what
like some of the things people have plugged into that whereas
you found a bigger God And like for me, like I think you're your
(30:56):
soul, that who you are. That is divinity.
That is the closest thing that there is a divine.
And when people come together, it resonates.
So in that sense, I, I strongly believe that we create divinity.
Does that mean that we create God?
Maybe not as much, but we feel it at a concert.
We feel it when we're watching something tragic that that sense
of like this morning, this joy, this whatever it is, is simply
(31:17):
too heavy for me to carry or create.
But I feel it. We're sharing this.
We're sharing this ethereal thing.
So what if we take that for everything?
What if we recognize that that bond exists with or without the
concert, right, with or without the tragedy.
That is my plugin, you know, is that we create that and I would
love to know, you know, finding somebody who is a little more
(31:40):
disconnected. Like what is that plugin?
What what is the the I don't think explanation, but in your
in your reality, in your world, What is that feeling?
If it's just you're around people in the dopamine cool
science, logic awesome. What would you say is one of the
most like interesting things that you've heard in relation to
(32:01):
people finding, you know, connection with the divine?
One of the most interesting I, Idon't know, I have so many
different ones in there. You know, I think, I mean, as
you were talking, I, I just keptcircling back in my head to
Pierre Tahar D Chardin. And if you've ever heard of him,
he was a, he was a Jesuit priestand a paleontologist and he
(32:23):
wrote the book The Phenomenon ofMan.
And I, I really kind of resonatewith some of his more of his
theology because it's, it's consistent with what I've come
to believe. And yeah, I, I actually studied
geology as an undergrad before Ifound exercise Physiology.
But he, he's famous for saying we are not physical beings
(32:45):
having a spiritual experience. We're spiritual beings having a
physical experience. Yes, yes.
That is literally, literally, that's truly, that is like sums
up kind of how I feel about that, that, you know, you were a
pilot, you were piloting a machine, right?
And that machine can get damagedand messed up.
But to stop and recognize that you, you are impervious.
(33:08):
Oh, my God, I like it. Yeah.
So I think that's probably the best dance make you come up with
with for your question there. That's a great one that that
definitely, that definitely clicks, that definitely
connects. So you also teach you teach 3
universal truths. What are these?
Yeah, so our universal truths are what we kind of build the
(33:29):
structure of our community around.
These are the closer things we have to those like core tenets
of our faith. The 1st is Revere the self.
So again, you are a miracle in motion.
All the things that could have erased you.
I don't just mean like, oh, you fell and bumped your head of the
baby. I'm talking a great, great,
great, great grandparents. I'm talking every plague that
missed your bloodline, every rusty nail that a barefoot
(33:50):
missed, you know, from your, your ancestors, like it didn't
happen. You were literally a miracle and
everything was kind of lined up against that happening.
So to not Revere the self, to not actively take care of
yourself is is like almost a pinagainst the self.
You know, recognizing that, recognizing that that you are
(34:10):
worth self reverence is the the core foundation, right?
And these are done in order to build upon.
So we start with the self. You cannot serve from an empty
plate. The second is to embrace the
communal experience. We are, you know, again,
communal creatures. We're social creatures.
We're meant to connect everything about this maverick,
(34:31):
you know, go out there and do ityourself.
Everything about the American dream of, you know, the mountain
upon yourself. The one man army is designed to
keep you frail and weak and designed to separate you from
the things that would empower you and connect you with
success. To not embrace millions of years
of evolution that said that you are meant to connect with
(34:52):
people. There are solitary creatures in
nature, right? And it's not to say that every
person who doesn't want to be socially connected to people is
is wrong, no, But to say that there are animals that show that
if it was in us to be solitary, we would be we would be we
wouldn't have the need for social interaction.
We wouldn't have a lot of who weare function, but we are we are
(35:14):
kin, you and I right. And people who out there were
listening to this, like if they have no malice in their heart,
there's my number text me. I'm your kin.
I got you. That's how this is supposed to
be. And everything that would divide
us, everything that would separate us is there with
intent, you know, to embrace thecommunal experience is buffet.
Not just, you know, we are kins,come here.
(35:35):
But to stay, we are kins come here because you're safe.
Is that implication? Is it say that it is safe from
things that would make you feel unsafe?
The last that the universe provides.
Now, the universe providing is the message that we talked
about. They have the message for you in
your language. Some people that looks like
traditional theology. You know, we have people in our
congregation who wouldn't say that.
(35:56):
Yeah, they're PAC members and Christians, or you know, they're
PAC members and Buddhists. Killing our pride, swallowing
our arrogance, acknowledging that in an ever expanding
universe, literally ever expanding in this, this what's
designed to experience everything.
Like what kind of arrogance would you have to like agree and
(36:17):
subject yourself to to think that an ever expanding universe,
this is not no. So then what wonders are there?
What if, right, we can look at it like as simple as this.
And this is when talking to people and we talk about this,
this is the most spiritual of our three universal truth.
So people who are less spiritual, who are more on the
atheistic side, this is what I tell people because it's like
(36:38):
universe, OK, cool. Then it's very simple is that
nothing matters or nothing matters.
That's that's it. We can look at the world with
wonder. We can look at this universe
with wonder, or we could look ata kind of a bore and why if
you're revering the self and acknowledging you're the
miracle, that is you. If you're have people in your
life that makes life worth living and makes life full of
(37:01):
just joy, the universe has provided.
Right. And in these three things,
people have found their strength, found empowerment.
You know, it allows people the opportunity to find those things
in their personal faith. You know, your body's a temple,
Revere the self, you know, do unto others embrace the communal
experience. And this is mirrored in a bunch
(37:21):
of other places throughout, you know, different, different
theologies. Judaism, I of course, the the
the name of it skips my mind. There's a phrase specifically.
It's like the communal love, thecommunal good, like, and that's
a part of faith to recognize thestrength of community that is
embracing the communal experience.
These are not some new hippie like Oh, Des took a bunch of
(37:42):
mushrooms and made a bunch of stuff.
Fuck, this is who we are hurt. You know, this is who we are is
stripped of some of the dogma, stripped of some of the baggage,
you know, and to say at the reduction, these are the three
things that help us kind of livegood live right and and it self
regulates. You know, there's no pastor
(38:03):
yelling down at you. There's no angry deity looking
down on you. If we can teach people that they
care of themselves, everything else just naturally builds.
Now, some would say that, you know, you can kind of come to
the same universal truths without psychedelics.
But in your view, what role do psychedelics play in healing
what you call the conspiritual sickness of our modern society?
(38:26):
Oh my gosh. Well, it's so hard to think
where to even start because it'sone the the core of this is
isolation. Isolation.
We have been disconnected. We have been so disconnected
from each other physically, spiritually.
We have been kind of trained andtaught to look at one another as
(38:49):
competition. If I'm unemployed and you're
unemployed, we're competing for the same job, not looking at the
idea that there should be more jobs, right?
Everything about the scraps thatwere thrown, we're told to then
pull scrap some other people. That sense of isolation is sold
to us as as a commodity. It's sold to us at the luxury
(39:10):
and the strength, despite the fact that every single person
who would sell you this concept used a team of people to know
how to sell it to you, right? Right.
So, So what better way to combatthat dedicated, that directed
isolation than to remove the thing that isolates us, the
physicality. Now, regardless of any spiritual
(39:33):
connotation to it, psychedelics open your mind and make you feel
connected because your brain is firing all these neurons, all
these pathways. It is reminding us, with or
without our acknowledgement of the the lack of it, of it inside
of us, that we need that connection, that through these
natural medicines we suddenly are reminded that we are a
(39:56):
boundless entity, not a constrained physicality.
And that means that you are too,which means the only.
The thing that divides us is a physicality in the same way that
these, you know, a camera or whatever.
So we're connected, you know, period, full thought.
We're connected not by blood, not even by faith, but by
energy, by souls, by love, whatever you want to call it,
(40:19):
whatever the word that you plug into that, you know,
psychedelics disconnect you fromthe physical part, which reminds
you then that we're already connected.
And once you feel it, you don't want to have that taken away.
So whenever you go out there andyou have a trip, when you have
this moment of revelry and you're like, I am a part of this
universe, not in it, right? An integral part of it, like you
(40:42):
are somebody who impacts people's days.
It makes you be like, you know what?
I want to maintain that. I want to continue that I want
to grow, like to find the, the true nature of who we are and
our existence that that connection, that desire to be a
community and to do that throughthese natural medicines.
I mean that I think it's hard not to come out spiritual.
(41:03):
I really do. I think it's very hard not to
come out spiritual. And I think right now people
need it. We need the anchors.
We need the connection. You know, even if you do not
want to, even if you 100% you donot subscribe to anything
metaphysical, anything, some mushrooms, a few hits of DMT,
whatever it is, all of a sudden you're, you're looking at people
with that idea of like, oh, we are kind of family, aren't we?
(41:26):
And I think, like I said, it's hard to reject that.
There's magic, you know? And I want people to find that.
And so there's there's been a lot of scientific validation of
psychedelics for mental health coming out in recent years.
And finally, you know, some of the freed up to do a little bit
more research in the area and all that.
(41:46):
And you talked about being a scientist.
How do you distinguish between therapy and spiritual ritual?
Well, let's look at that in two different ways.
The first side, let's look at that strictly legally.
Let's talk about strictly legally.
So therapy is performed by a therapist, a licensed therapist,
somebody who has, you know, received that licensing from
some kind of board here in America.
(42:08):
If you're receiving therapy, then it's going to be from, you
know, a clinician, A psychologist, LMSW, whatever it
may be. A counselor provides counseling
and counseling is legally distinct and then it is not
performed by a licensed professional in that sense here
or you know, a licensed medical professional.
Let me, let me go ahead and clarify that, but I want to be
(42:31):
honest with you. I want to be totally, totally
honest with you. The number of people who have
told me after an hour of spiritual counseling of sitting
down and opening up the heart, opening up some wounds, who've
then said, oh, I, I would never do therapy.
I could never do therapy. It would never work for me.
This was great. This was fantastic.
Same tools, different order. You know what the difference
(42:51):
between a brownie and a Blondie?One has chocolate, one does it
right now. Of course it does open the idea
that spiritual counseling in thehands of people who do not know
what they're doing can do a lot of harm.
Just like with these natural medicines, needing the safety
information to make them tools, not weapons.
Good intentions without proper training, without proper
(43:12):
education, without proper, you know, understanding can harm a
lot of people. So the idea of people kind of
performing spiritual counseling as a way to simply facilitate
natural medicine without the understanding is what are you
going to do if somebody has not just like a bad trip, but
something traumatic comes up because something traumatic can
(43:33):
come up. Are you able to handle that?
Can somebody leave your space knowing that they are they are
put back together? Because on the therapy side, you
absolutely need to know how to do that.
It's a part of your licensing and the counselling side.
You really should. But unfortunately, you know, the
expectation and the reality are different, you know, So that's
(43:56):
why I'm very mindful of the people say, oh, I, I found this
new church. Just make sure you look into it,
make sure you understand even here, even here, people want to
sit down and say, OK, does you say you have a side, side 3?
Where's it from? What was your GPA?
Whatever, Let's talk. I got you.
I'll stand by it, you know, but I don't like I don't perform
therapy. I am a pastor in in that sense.
(44:17):
I provide spiritual counseling. Now if I worked in a church and
I was the one running the food kitchen and prior prior to this,
I ran a, you know, a high end restaurant as a head chef.
How how awesome to have those skills to bring to a food
kitchen. I'm lucky the universe spoke to
me through psychology since science, they spoke to me
(44:39):
through psychology and science, and I'm able to today use those
tools properly legally in in this setting as a pastor.
And I could be more real. I can be more honest.
I think that's the big part too.So you need to talk about a
specific ceremony or a moment where you witness really deep
spiritual transformation throughyour practice.
Oh my gosh, yes, I can 1 instantly remember my
(45:04):
congregation had some family visiting.
This was five months ago, four or five months ago, because we
had just started offering DMT asone of our one of our offerings
on Tuesdays. And so the father was hippie
church. That's a cool hippie church.
I'm like, yeah, that's a pretty cool hippie church.
Yeah, man. And I don't think he was trying
(45:25):
to be, you know, malicious, but he was definitely like, I see
you, dude. I'm like, I don't think you do,
but OK, But it's OK. I greeted it with joy with, you
know, because that's an opportunity right there.
So we're all talking. We have on Tuesdays are our
primary gathering, which is the closest thing we have to a
sermon. So every month we have a main
(45:46):
topic and then we talk about howit relates based on the week.
So first week is the self, second week is your
relationships, third week is thecommunity, and a fourth week is
a wrap up. So this one was specifically
about our relationships. We're talking, we're talking,
we're going through everything. It was a great, great sermon,
really solid, and I said, okay, y'all, we're gonna start
(46:06):
prepping some DMT for some offerings if anybody is
interested. And he's like, you know what,
I'll give it a shot. Now I wanna preface all of this,
but this is one of those momentswhere I had to stop and be like,
shame on me for my prejudgments.The gentleman little, little
heavier, kind of kind of country, a little country and
(46:26):
little accent. And I don't know, I guess when
he came in and his attitude was kind of, you know, a little
dismissive about things. I I wasn't expecting it.
So he's like, I'll try it. Well, cool, let's let's talk.
So I give him the safety spiel because I think he might have
been the only person here who was actually here for the first
time, first time. And I tell him I said, Hey, have
you ever done anything? He's like, no, but you know,
(46:49):
like I'm I can hold my, you know, I'm OK.
Like it's, it's OK. I'm like, OK, like, so are you
spiritual at all? That used to be OK.
Well, get everything prepped up.Explain how to do it.
He takes a little hit, coughs itall out, doesn't get anything
out of it. I'm like, OK, so got to work on
that. So this time what I want you to
do is I want to as fast as you can hold it.
(47:10):
We're going to try to make sure we get that in there.
Put ice. We we got that all prepped for
him because I'm thinking to myself, OK, moment of Kairos.
OK, so get everything prepped up.
We want to put a little extra inthere to make sure that if you
cough again, you still get some.So we put a little extra in
there, but this time he doesn't cough at all at all.
So he takes his full. Now it's not a breakthrough
dose, but it's enough. It's enough to get him to get
(47:30):
him going. 10 minutes later of him literally comes up, he's
really quiet. Really.
It's like OK. And I'm like, oh, is he OK and
actually OK? And to go from very talkative to
like. OK.
People get their gifts. We're starting to wrap up.
And to say that he pulls me aside.
I don't mean like, oh, excuse me, does I mean like like hate
(47:52):
on the show, like can I talk? Can I, can I borrow you for a
second? As he's like actively kind of
giving me a little tug. I'm like, I guess.
So this is the part I always geta little choked up, so I
apologize. So when he was growing up, he
had mentioned that he was very into Norse mythology, that it
was it was a thing for him. And he said that he found Thor
(48:13):
that he actually or Odin, I forgot what it was.
He said he actually found them. Like he heard the voice.
It was like welcome. He said welcome back, welcome
back and could not remember anything else.
Can I remember anything else? And then I tell people DMT can
hit, you know, 2448 hours for the pieces to kind of fall back
into place. And he said that in his heart,
in his heart he knew he connected with Odin, Thor,
(48:36):
whatever it may have been. And it said the words he heard
the actual words. Welcome back.
Oh, I was like to watch here comes and I apologize, OK, Watch
a grown man come in here. Steve is a fun as a joke almost,
but to leave tears in his eyes, truly feeling reconnected with
(48:57):
something he did not realize that he had lost.
I worked mental health for 10 years and in 15 months I have
watched the universe move peoplelike put people on better paths,
connect people with things that they did not know they needed.
And to watch a grown man leaf here, red eyes, you know,
(49:19):
smiling, smiling like a child who has found a toy that he
thought he had lost, that lives seared in my heart.
Ohh. And the beautiful thing is that
this, this moment isn't isolated.
Like things like this have happened in this community.
Things that like this have happened literally right here on
this carpet, people on their knees saying like that was so
(49:41):
beautiful or that they heard something or they felt something
or they saw someone. Just last week during one of our
DMT earlier this week during oneof our DMT ceremonies, during a
moment they do all the fractal, they said they saw a big
dragonfly. And years ago they had lost
their first, their first love. And he liked dragonflies and
(50:07):
said he hadn't thought about himin a while, you know, because
life, but said that in that moment to see this big dragonfly
come up and be like I am, you know, reveal itself and fly off.
I mean, that was just this week to see this happen.
I am lucky to realize that three, you know, three years ago
(50:29):
I was able to save myself, but most people can't and don't have
that opportunity. And here for 15 months we have
been able to do it again and again.
It's not me doing it, it's us. This is ours, not mine.
I am not the leader, I just lead.
It's one of the skills I bring. I'm not above anybody.
I'm I'm on the exact same level as every single person with this
congregation. But to watch when people always
talk about core memories like like it's a child thing as it
(50:52):
kill that kid is making a core memory like we don't do that
still as adults and to watch people reclaim tomorrow here.
Oh amazing. I apologize.
No, it's perfectly fine. Usually it's me that's having
those pause moments and I have to kind of collect myself.
So you. Know.
(51:13):
Wait for the guts to do it as well.
We're, we're meant to feel all of this, the joy, the, the, the,
the fear, the all of it, all of it.
So I tell people to don't followit up.
Let it out, you know, a good conversation is is, you know,
well lubricated. Go.
(51:33):
So do you think mainstream religions like Christianity,
Judaism, Islam something to learn from the psychedelic
spiritual movement? Or is it a fundamentally
different path? There are direct references in
judeo-christian faiths of peopleusing psychedelics to commune
with God. It has that concept of using
(51:55):
these natural medicines to connect with the divine, redate
the hate of using these natural medicines to connect with the
divine. There's so much to be learned.
There's so much to be reconnected.
But but it also then goes back to the idea of, you know, what
is the faith that you're practicing with no disrespect to
anybody directly. It's the idea.
(52:16):
Are you Christian or are you thefate of the person preaching
their version of Christianity atyou?
You know, are you somebody whosereligion preaches love?
But you just thought through a sermon of what I hate, right?
These, these natural medicines, psychedelics, whatever may or
may not be there above us has these here for us to use.
(52:38):
How arrogant is to think that weknow better.
I'm going to sit here. I apologize.
I gotta get my little tissues out.
That's OK. I get the the joy of all of
this. The joy of all of this has just
been amazing. So looking ahead, what is your
your vision for the future of psychedelic spirituality in
America? Is this going to be a
reformation, A revival, or something else entirely?
(53:01):
This is the second psychedelic mental soul.
This is right now. In the 70s, we saw and felt the
communal joy, the communal healing that was made possible.
And what was happening then. What would, what would be
happening in our country that would make us need to squash the
idea that we are in and that we're not supposed to be going
out there killing each other? You know, when we realize that
(53:24):
there was an intention and what that intention was behind
killing the first psychedelic renaissance, then we can see why
they're doing it again now, right?
This will continue. This will grow, right?
This is bringing too much healing.
And I've made my stance very clear.
There is nothing, nothing that will prevent me from connecting
(53:45):
people with the healing that I have already done because I made
not I, I made a promise the day that I connected people with
these natural medicines. And I said that this is not just
say, hey, give me 20 bucks, here's your micro doses.
Good luck. This is me saying this is true
alternative medicine to what is right now completely focused on
(54:05):
profits, completely focused on you deserving the luxury of
Wellness, be it through a prescription or somebody who has
the audacity to put two $3000 onayahuasca or any of the natural
medicines that are being offeredhere.
This movement is is going to become common.
One day. Our movement will have a
(54:26):
necessity. There won't be a need to
advocate because in the same wayright now people are smoking
cigarettes and we're picking up more momentum to get people
comfortable with cannabis and the actual healing that can
bring. We're working on that now, but
there are obvious things happening politically that will
show that, that shows that they will be pushed back to make sure
that this gets squashed again. We got to keep fighting because
(54:46):
now that people have fight on their healing, they need to
recognize that this is the time to fight for it.
And as people out there to recognize that healing is
possible. This is something that you know,
we can help bring. You know, my goal for this is
not to make this a Colorado thing.
We're not to not be the ColoradoPsychedelic Church.
My goal is to know that the Colorado psychedelic church is a
part of, of like the greater congregation or the greater
(55:09):
network of allied psychedelic churches where, you know, we can
have one in Oregon, we can have one in Florida.
We can have one in places where people need healing, which is
everywhere. But of course, we have to do it
legally. We have to make sure that the
the framework is there. You know, looking at a place
like Florida that is actively working to restrict access to
(55:30):
psilocybin because they'd rathersee people dead than healthy.
Florida's economy, you would think, runs on caskets and and
nothing else because they're just hell bent on killing their
citizens. But if there was an Ave. then
I'd be there if there if there was anybody out there who was
like, we want to push for this to be legalized here.
Dez, can you bring people out tohelp?
(55:50):
I got you. Oh, yes.
Because in what we're doing here, in the actual legitimacy
of it, we're not a bunch of hippies showing up in the middle
of Tennessee or in the middle ofwherever being like, hey, we're
here to like fight for this. We're known.
Our momentum is recognized. Healing is validated.
You don't have to like my message.
You can't argue my data. You know, you can look at me and
(56:11):
think I'm just some, you know, weird looking hippie.
Fine, that's cool. I'm not here to to have people
like me. I'm here to remove a 50 year
campaign against the demonization of these natural
medicines and to show that righthere, right now, and I mean
this, there are people in my congregation who would not be
here because they told me. Dez, I walked in here with a
(56:32):
handful of pills in my pocket. Dez, I walked in here like ready
to say, if this doesn't help, I'm just going to go buy the
ammo. There's one gentleman now who
walks in every lounge night, bigsmiles.
Everybody knows him. You would not recognize him the
first time he walked in here because the first thing he said
to me is I think I'm want to kill myself.
And I don't know really where else to go.
And I'm like, why are you here? He's like, because you're a
(56:54):
church and I don't know where else to go.
And I was like, and I'm thinking, so you just Googled
church, said take me to the nearest one and showed up at my
doorstep. Kyros, I'm glad you're there,
brother. Really the case that he just
Google church and that was the first thing that came up.
I mean, if you Google church, ifyou literally like we pop up on
Google Maps, if you type in church nearest to me, you're
(57:15):
taking to the nearest church andyou happen to be around here,
you will come here. Like we're not a church.
We are a church and Kai Ross brought, you know, the universe
brought this man here. And to now know that he is here
every Friday now around his friends hanging out.
Like, I've seen what it looks like.
I've seen the hollow in somebody's eyes when if I don't
(57:36):
interfere, enter like Veen rightnow, you are going to go home
and kill yourself. I've seen that.
And I've seen what happens when people don't.
So I've literally seen that light, that lack thereof here in
this space. And to know that it's not just
some oh, yeah, we're saving lives.
We are actually, which means that this can be done elsewhere,
which means lives can be saved elsewhere.
(57:57):
The second psychedelic renaissance is here to make sure
that the only people who are leaving tomorrow are the
hateful, the malicious, not the kind, you know, not the frail
who've been beaten because of their kindness.
You know, this is my righteous fight in all of this, man.
Like to make sure the right people, the good people know
that tomorrow belongs to you, right?
(58:19):
And this is just, I invite people to come out.
If people want to come out and you don't have the money for a
hotel, we got places to sleep here in the church.
If you need to come out and havehealing, right?
Like we've had people come from out of state, We've had people
come from out of the country. We've done what we can to
connect people and to make sure if the plane ticket is the thing
that gets you here and you don'thave another dime to spend,
fine, I'll offer it to you. The services for free.
(58:41):
We already make the natural medicine for free.
But if you're like Dez, this DMTceremony, the four hour retreat,
this I think really would changemy life.
All I need is for you to write me a letter, handwrite me a
letter that explains why you think it'll be good for you.
Because I just want to know thatif you can give me that amount
of energy, then I will give you everything you need to reclaim
tomorrow. And I'm going to end with that
because I don't think I could ask another question or give a
(59:04):
concluding statement that will top that.
So that's going to be, I love that.
Thank you for listening. I hope you benefited from
today's podcast. And until next time, keep aging
well.
Welcome to the Aging Well podcast, where we explore the
science stories and strategies that help us to live longer,
healthier, and more purposeful lives.
I am your host, Doctor Jeff Armstrong.
This episode is a replay of an episode of the We Have a
Spiritual Problem podcast. My guest is to Hopa Key Dez,
pastor of the Colorado Psychedelic Church, a community
that blends sacred plant medicine with spiritual practice
(00:26):
in the heart of modern America. As debates rage over
legalization, mental health, andthe ethics of altered states,
Pastor Days offers perspective rooted in ritual, tradition, and
the search for divine connection.
Psychedelics have a long historyin spiritual practice among
semantic tribes, indigenous groups, and early civilizations.
(00:46):
Psychedelic assistance Psychotherapy is now an emerging
therapeutic approach that combines the use of psychedelics
and psychotherapy for the treatment of Post Traumatic
Stress disorder and treatment resistant depression.
Are psychedelics a spiritual cure we've forgotten or a
dangerous detour? Can they help us to age well?
(01:07):
Can you just share your the origin story of the Colorado
Psychedelic Church? And what spiritual problem were
you trying to address when you found it?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So the kind of back story all about this is, you know, three
years ago I woke up and was ready to opt out, ready to kill
myself. I was not not lost in my
(01:27):
depression. I wasn't overwhelmed by life.
I was just simply not happy. And the clarity of that moment
was terrifying because it wasn'ta today's bad day.
If I just get through this day, It was just this numbness,
Right? Yeah.
I pride myself on being more of a scientist.
You know, I'm like, OK, I did counseling for years.
(01:49):
I have my degrees in psychology.I said, OK, if somebody told me
this, I would tell them, OK, onelast try, you know, if you're
really that certain, one last try.
So this is when we're starting to get a lot more of the
research coming back up about the effects of psilocybin
mushrooms on its actual ability to combat depression and
anxiety. So I was like, you know, I'm
going to do it. I'm going to go online, I'm
(02:10):
going to order these spores and I'm going to illegally grow
these mushrooms because if I'm ready to die, what what else do
I really have to lose? It took you know, 6 to 8 weeks
to actually get some mushrooms grown up.
In that time I'm doing all this reading and the day came and I
said, OK, these are going to make me better or I'm going to
be more confident in my decision.
(02:32):
Well, I'm here today. I'm here today because obviously
those mushrooms saved my life and I do just two grams small,
the small trip once a month to go ahead and kind of get my
brain regulated here in Colorado, SB-23290, which
decriminalized, you know, cell cyber mushrooms, DMT, BOGA and
(02:53):
mescaline. That was going to go into effect
earlier this year. So I'm sorry, last year I
thought it'd be fun to maybe open up a little sport shop, you
know, kind of say, hey, mushrooms did something for me.
Maybe I can be a part of this movement.
So I'm sitting at my bar, I havemy 2 grams of mushroom tea and
I, I take that and, you know, 20minutes, 25 minutes.
(03:13):
And oh, oh, yeah, yeah, there itis.
Starting to feel that in my eyesa little bit, right?
I stand up, I get 2 steps and all of a sudden I find myself in
this forest. Now, I don't know.
I don't know if I misweighed it.I don't know.
I don't know why 2 grams should have been lay in bed, watch a
movie, giggle for a few hours and be fine.
But there I am standing in this forest.
(03:34):
There I am, you know, maybe 1015feet from me, the silhouette
3D2D figure. It's a shadow of a person, but
there's No Fear. I remember the feeling of the
sun on my scalp that the smell of the grass and my nostrils
like it was, it was all of thesedifferent experiences.
Well, I see this figure, it stands up because it was
(03:56):
crouched over. And I realized, OK, it's a
person. It's a person.
The head turns towards me and the second our eyes meet,
there's the whole conversation. Of course I'm Mexico.
You're one of my ancestors. You use these and I realize the
ground is covered in grass and mushrooms.
These big like almost like cartoon vibrant mushrooms.
You use these to heal your people.
(04:17):
And I'm supposed to do the same?I'm not spiritual.
The universe is supposed to be in psychology and science and
logic. And you know what?
I will tell you that I spend more of my life as a a rather
shitty atheist as, you know, somebody who would proselytize.
This lack of faith against people who are proselytizing
like that somehow made me better, You know, you become
(04:38):
what you hate in that sense. Yeah.
Yeah. Next morning, I wake up, I'm in
bed upstairs. I don't even remember how I got
upstairs, you know, And I had a panic attack that pretty much
lasted a whole day, A whole day of what the heck was that?
I don't, I don't speak Spanish. You know, like I'm Mexican, my
(04:59):
dad worked, you know, 60-70 hours for the family.
He's awesome, he's incredible, but it came at a cost.
And I, I did not, I was not raised with my culture like
that. So to have this sudden like, why
would the universe, what, what was this?
Why that why it kind of send me into a spiral.
And in that moment, and I'm to kind of tie that together, in
that moment, I'm realizing I don't have spirituality, that I
(05:22):
am I am devoid of this like in my, in my absence of being
raised with the, the like Judy, my mother, the Catholicism of my
father, I don't have a good foundation there.
And I filled that void with thisatheism, right?
But I follow psychology, you know, and that that is a form of
science. That is something that we're
saying that, you know, as we understand the world, these are
(05:44):
these rules. And that sounds kind of like
faith as well, right? So as I'm wrestling with this,
what is this? What is this literally mid panic
attack, mid SOB and I just stop.And it's just clarity.
It's like, OK, but I have the answer.
The answer is to go like help toheal, to do something.
Why am I getting caught up on the question?
Is the question really that important if I have this answer?
(06:05):
Because somewhere between the, the hard science of taking a,
you know, psychedelic plant or fungus and having that throat,
these hallucinations in my mind,synesthesia, inter intercepting
these different senses and making experience this kind of
kaleidoscope of emotions and sensations.
(06:28):
On this side of it, the physicality that I pilot, the
what I am is bound by a set sense of senses.
And what if this opens up that cockpit and you're able to come
out as The Who you are and The Who you are is tied to different
senses. So what if on this side of it,
my who, my soul, whatever you want to call that was displaced
and and was able to interact with somebody through what the
(06:51):
what is constrained by time? So what if I met an ancestor in
a timeless place who probably was also tripping and that's why
we were able to meet and wrestling with that and realize
that the truth is somewhere here.
That's somewhere in between thatthat's what happened.
And in that moment, like my spirituality was born this idea.
(07:12):
But OK, what if there really is no distinction between the
psychological and the spiritual?What if it's kind of like Mad
Libs where we have this concept and we all put different words
in there and to stop and to think that I, I realized that
it's, it's not a matter of finding faith.
It's a matter of recognizing it because it's already there.
There's already something insideof you that answers unanswerable
(07:34):
things, that looks for the invisible threads that kind of
tie things together. Because we recognize that the
world is only as understood as we understand.
If you're enjoying the Aging Well podcast, be sure to like,
subscribe or follow on your favorite platform so you will
never miss an episode episode. And if you find our
conversations helpful, please share the podcast with a friend
(07:56):
because aging is something we'reall doing and we're better at
doing it together. And support our guests in this
podcast financially by visiting the affiliate links in the
episode description below and use the links or codes provided
for discounts on products we have vetted and feel comfortable
recommending to our valued viewers and listeners.
Thank you. And now back to the podcast.
And, you know, to stop and to think that tell George
(08:17):
Washington a giant lizard roam the earth and he would say no.
And science at the time would say no because they hadn't found
them yet. You know, this idea that that
what if spirituality isn't a pigeonhole?
What if it isn't this clear ideaof something metaphysical,
something aerial? But what if it is this idea that
(08:39):
it's also science? It's also this other like it's
all these other things that we like to use at the counter
without realizing. It's all the thank you that to
take care of yourself spiritually, to take care of
yourself psychologically, to take care of the, the fullness
of finding what it is to connectwith the universe.
However, that is, is mirrored inthe fulfillment found in the,
(09:00):
the validation of education and in, in that validation of logic.
You know, and to, to go from that here in the basement of my
house to realize, OK, I'm going to grow some mushrooms.
I'm going to use these laws to to legally connect people with
these natural medicines and hopefully open up, you know,
open up people's mind, open up people's hearts, whatever the
(09:22):
Wellness they find is isn't for me to decide.
The universe is going to figure that out.
But I sure as hell did not make,you know, a cup of tea with the
idea of OK, connect me with my ancestors.
You know, that was a cup of tea that I drank kind of not
begrudgingly, but the taste isn't great because I don't want
to. I don't want to be depressed.
But then have that be the momentthat said OK does.
(09:43):
Are you listening now? We're what, February, March,
April, May? So we're 15 months, 15 months
into the Colorado psychedelic church, 15 months of building
community, of connecting people with spirituality.
And I don't have to preach. I don't have to proselytize.
I don't have to sit down and force someone to sit, like sit
in front of me and say this is the way the universe is.
(10:05):
All I have to say is here's a tool.
You know, this tool has education that comes with it
because without it, it's a weapon and you're going to hurt
yourself. But to recognize that this tool
can open the door to this inbound unending source of
knowledge and clarity. And all you have to do is take
care of yourself. Go through that and then
integrate how simple, how simple.
(10:26):
Because in that one, like simplemotion, you're going to be able
to start finding that spiritual Wellness that like, OK, there is
something out there and I'm connected to it as well as
again, that psychological Wellness of and my depression
can go, go find somewhere else to be.
Yeah. And the church was born.
The church was born. The church was born.
(10:47):
So you've kind of touched aroundthe edges of it, but how do you
define spiritual? I would say spiritual is what
your connection is with the unknown, period, full stop.
Period, full stop. And that means that that's what
is the unknown in space that we can't ever get to.
Well, we have science and we have logic to kind of build an
idea of what that is. That's faith, that's spiritual,
(11:10):
that's spirituality. That's just as valid as the idea
that I am a who and a what, but or that there's something above
me or beneath me or something beside whatever it may be.
Spiritual is the the I don't have a clear answer.
So how can I find 1, You know, and maybe the difference there
specifically with spirituality is an acknowledgement that we
(11:32):
have to kind of silence the ego a little bit to recognize that
that answer is going to exist with or without us, right?
You know, we can't necessarily create that.
We have to find it. And that's very much the
definition I kind of use on thispodcast because I, I want people
to understand that, you know, spirituality is far beyond our
religious dogma, doctrine, whichever slide you want to
(11:56):
approach it, you know, because it's bigger than ourselves and
it's smaller than ourselves. That's what's so wild.
And that's why, you know, we were talking, you know, before
we started recording about the connection of the physical and
the spiritual. To me, it's like you start
studying quantum physics and you're realizing how small the
universe really is. But then you also look at, like,
(12:16):
astrophysics, and it's like how big the universe is.
And the universe keeps getting bigger, but it keeps getting
smaller. And somewhere in between all of
that material is something, and that's something has to be the
spiritual. And the more that all comes
together, I think the more we start to really grow as human
beings. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
(12:39):
You know, it's almost like the human nature to find and plug
answers in regardless that they fit, you know, So it's
reclaiming that sense of wonder almost by finding our
spirituality and sharing that and helping other people realize
that it doesn't need the rigidity, right?
It doesn't need the the dogmaticrigidity of a structure.
(12:59):
This has been around religion. Spirituality is personal.
You know, I'd be very mindful ofsomebody else who's telling me
what my message from the universe is.
You know, I think that's a big red flag.
We did a a recent episode in this podcast where I interviewed
Lauren Axelrod and the the topicwas experiencing kind of
(13:20):
duality. I think that was what we called
it, but it was the basic premiseof it was she had a, a friend
who had had a stroke and was left with, she could only say 2
words, fuck and wow. And her friends were all
concerned about it. She was like, no, this is
incredible, this is awesome. And I mean what express?
And we just kind of talked aboutthe whole expression, how those
(13:40):
two words, you know how spiritual those two words can be
if you really approach it the right way.
And I'm trying to say it too many times so I don't have to
bleep it out more than once. You know, it's something we
talked about here in the space. So one of the accessible in
natural medicines here is dimethyltryptamine.
You know, the spirit molecule, right?
(14:02):
DMT is awesome. And I mean that that word
literally. Like, have you ever been struck
by actual awe? Like to stop and to look at
something or to perceive it at the very least, colors, motions,
a connection, a vibrancy, A resonance, whatever it is.
And to be truly awestruck. You know, that's a word I tell
(14:26):
people I want to think of how casually.
Oh, that's awesome. No, I want you to truly
experience awesome. So how important is it to have
that spiritual connection or thepsychological?
Because I think we can look at kind of the physical, if if you
call psychological, physical, I think psychology kind of fits in
the middle of that psychology, yeah, spiritual, physical
(14:49):
science. But how important is it to have
that connection, whether it be spiritual or some physical
connection when you're partakingof psychedelics?
Because, you know, I grew up in the 70s and I had, you know, I
didn't, they weren't necessarilyfriends of mine, but I went to
high school with a lot of peoplethat, you know, are talking like
shrooms, man. But they were taking it with,
(15:11):
without any kind of direct purpose.
It was just the trip. And, you know, when talking with
Neil Markey, I mentioned before him from Beckley retreats, you
know, he talks about using it really therapeutically.
And I think, you know, from the spiritual side, you're doing the
same thing with the church, but that it's important to do it in
a controlled setting and not just simply, you know, because
(15:34):
not everybody's going to, you know, have that realization like
you had when you just stepped into the forest.
Exactly. Some people can take too much
and then just totally freak out and not know what to do and it
can cause them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, you know, this is kind of a kind of a hard line to look
at, right? Because on one side of it, we
have to have structure. We have to have safety.
(15:56):
We have to make sure that peoplearen't taking, I'm going to take
4G and go for a walk. No, you are not Absolutely not.
You know, but but again, that wesay that this needs to be
sterile and clinical and or, or,or this has to be ceremonial.
This has to be done with a guideand it has to be, see, that's
(16:18):
the hard part there, because themaking sure that people build
this connection with this medicine.
And a part of the connection hasto be the respect and the
understanding of like, you know,you can't just, you can't just
do this Willy nilly that you have to on some root level,
approach it with reverence. You know, here in our space, we
talk about revelry. You know, we don't trip, we
don't get messed up. We revel.
(16:39):
We, we look at our existence anddo exactly what we're meant to
do, enjoy it. That doesn't mean partying.
It can, it absolutely can. Like let me stress that.
Like take some mushrooms, put yourself in a safe place around
the right people and have a little party.
Absolutely. But revelry can look like
meditation. It can look like you and I
crying over tearing open old wounds and talking about some
(17:02):
hard things to know in our heartthat at the end they're going to
be healed. Like revelry doesn't always feel
good, but it's always a step in the right direction.
You know, we're repairing The Who, we're repairing the what.
We're sitting down and making sure that we're putting purpose
behind it. So I think maybe that's, you
know, if I had a side on one side of it, yes, you have to
have intention. You have to have purpose, right?
(17:25):
But I want to make sure that people understand that that also
just like your spirituality thatcan look like what you want it
to be. I don't think there's a lot of
respect to be shown taking 6 grams of mushrooms and going
out, you know, to the mall to walk around and see all the
colors. No, that, that that's not that's
not reverence, right? But if you tell yourself that
(17:45):
maybe you want to go out for a hike or you want to go get
comfortable in your bed or you want to sit down in a nice Lotus
pose and like, you know, meditate, I don't, I don't care.
Like if you're doing it, you're doing it right, you're doing it
save. That's the right answer.
So it sounds like purpose and reverence are the two key
components to doing this, right?And whether you're doing it for
psychological purposes or doing it for spiritual purposes or
(18:07):
just doing it for, you know, personal relaxation and, you
know. Revelry.
Yeah. So how you define your community
as a community of PACK life? And the PACK is an acronym.
What do you mean by this? Yeah, so the the first part is
that we're social creatures. We evolved from a pack animals.
(18:30):
You know, we have no claws, no fangs.
We have no fur, we have no scales.
So how did our ancestors look atthis world and survive, you
know, together? They did it together.
They looked at each other without the ability to form
words and said, and you looked at me and went and we both knew
that went hungry and you went together and we both went out
(18:52):
there. You know, we are packed
creatures. And what does that provide us?
Protection. There's safety in numbers, not
just from the without, but from within.
As we become close, as we have lost our connection with people
and community, we've lost the safety net of having people able
to recognize when we're stumbling or falling even when
we don't recognize it. You know, people don't wake up
(19:15):
lost in the void of their their depression or their anxiety.
That's a process. And for people to to be isolated
and to not be around other who would normally say, Hey, are you
OK? And having that be the thing to
be like, Oh my God, no, I am not.
That's that protection aspect. You know, if there's also
passion, there's power. There's this ability to know
(19:35):
that in returning to who we are,we're regaining this now.
We have acceptance here. It's not blind acceptance.
It's, you know, the idea that we're building a garden.
This is peace and peace isn't found.
It's cultivated. It's worth protecting.
It's worth putting boundaries. It's worth wedding, you know, so
acceptance isn't blind. It's done with accountability.
(19:57):
It's done with an acknowledgement that you were
going to be held accountable, right?
It's about making it accessible here.
We. Communication, being social
creatures were designed to talk,you know, are there hard
conversations? Absolutely.
Do you think in 15 months I haven't had to have that talk
with someone of, hey, you're really fucked, you're really
(20:18):
messing things up right now. And to not say that in a place
of hate, but to say like, I'm worried for you, I know you can
do this. Like what can we do to have that
conversation, even if it's awkward, you know, it's
important because it's done withcompassion.
It's done with that recognition that is someone I'm supposed to
cooperate with. All of these things allow us to
(20:40):
live a life that act on moments of I, Ross.
Now, Kai Ross is a Grecian term referring to an opportune
moment. It's not like fate.
It's not like destiny. These things are a little too.
You're a passenger in your own life.
For me, if I'm going to be honest, the miracle of my
existence, the miracle of your existence of all of us, the idea
that any of its predetermined kind of cheapens it.
(21:02):
So what is Kairos? Kairos, are these opportune
moments, millions of years of momentum and motivation,
millions of years of people's ambition saying, OK, it's your
turn, what do you do? So even this conversation right
here, if I look at the first e-mail being like, oh, I'm
really busy, I'll get back to that later and I never do.
Or your end or whatever it is. I mean, the weather could be
(21:23):
really bad and the power could go out and this couldn't happen.
Whatever it is, all these thingslined up to make this moment
right here happen because what if this here is the thing that
gives somebody out there a moment of clarity?
It's like, okay, you know what healing is possible.
Okay, maybe things are getting better.
Maybe with despite all of the hate and the the malice in the
world, there are people out herewho want to like have the right
kind of righteous fire to stand against this.
(21:45):
And what if that gives somebody strength?
This Kyros can save lives, and all of that together is PAC
life. Cool, I like and I like that the
you know, the the letters aren'tjust as forced.
OK, PAC sounds good. So let's come up with, you know,
a word that fits all of these that you have this stack of
words that all kind of spell to that purpose and and kind of all
(22:09):
lead to that Chios. So that's kind of cool And I
like that principle because I I mean, I have I have a blog.
It's called Carpe Carpe Memento that, you know, it's really just
focused on, you know, my, my belief that you, we are where we
are in this moment. Whatever happened in the past
brought us here. That shit doesn't matter that
(22:29):
it's all about what are we goingto do now with this circumstance
that I'm in and what's going to happen.
And it's one reason, like right now, so many people are so
stressed out over all the stuff and positive or negative,
whichever side of the political aisle you're on or not on,
there's so much stress about what's going on in the country.
(22:50):
And I'm like, oh man, this is this is good because it's
leading to something. We are going to have a big
awakening in this country if we just pay attention and we just
start looking at each other and say how can I help one another?
Yeah. And, you know, doing this with
good boundaries, doing this withgood accountability, doing this
allows us to extend this garden.You know, I'm kind of a national
(23:13):
level. I mean, I, I am a lot of people
are scared and hurting right now.
A lot of people are. And you know what?
I think that they're, they're right to be.
I'm a gay Mexican Jew, you know,like I, I have my whole life has
definitely been one on the, the receiving end of whatever slur
you could think of for those 3 categories.
My place right here, right now, my stance is very loud and that
(23:36):
is I am offering healing as an act of defiance for everything
that would make sure that you stay frail, right?
And that healing, be it psychological, spiritual, will
allow you to become empowered. You know, that is so important
right now, building these communities, connecting people
with spirituality they don't realize they don't have.
(23:57):
But it's inside of them already,you know?
I mean, imagine finding out today that all of us had wings
and we just couldn't see them, You know, that we've been able
to fly this whole time. But we've been told so much, so
often that the idea has just never crossed our mind.
Yeah. He just, he just gave me a
horrible time. Yeah, if you told somebody.
(24:18):
So a gay Mexican Jew walks into a mushroom bar and starts a
church. You know.
Like, OK, what's the punch line?No, no headline.
It's on PBS right now. Check it out.
You know, and I'm happy to see that all of this, the talks of
(24:42):
spirituality, the talks of psychedelics, the talk of all
this becoming more normal, right?
Where we're destigmatizing it, even even the idea of
alternative spirituality outsideof like more traditional with
no, you know, no disrespect, traditional theology.
When you say that you have a personal faith or something that
is not traditional, there's always the like, oh, kind of the
(25:04):
like the little side smirk. But now, now we, we really have
this idea that like, oh, cool, like either maybe I want to know
more or I don't. It's not a like, oh, cool,
whatever. It's like, oh, that's neat.
You know, there is this radical acceptance over the past few
years of people who are saying, you know, what if we just open
our mind to these different ideas and finding our allies,
(25:27):
our brothers, our sisters, our kin, you know, who are finding
their spirituality, finding things through, you know, via
through meditation or through psychedelic mushrooms, that's
making the world better and, andgreeting them.
You know, we're seeing such a good sense of unity.
And I do have to thank all this hate.
In a weird way, I have to thank all this fire and all this hate
(25:49):
because it has shown us that we need to look at each other as
kin to draw good boundaries. But to realize what do we have
in common? Do neither of us have, you know,
malice in our heart? Then let's work together.
Let's share our spirituality. Let's grow right and in a place
here where people are told specifically you're the
universe's message for you is personal.
So your message is not going to be like anybody else's.
(26:10):
And then to watch people share it.
OK, to watch people share their individual faiths in this space
and never once have a like crossed into proselytizing.
Oh my God, it tells you the growth.
It tells you the growth of our like general acceptance of all
of. This, yeah.
You know what a time to be alive.
That's what my social media director says.
What a time to be alive. It actually is, it really is.
(26:35):
You know, it's, I mean, it's gotits moments, but you know,
without the, and I teach exercise science, so, you know,
I'm always going to kind of the exercise Physiology references
to, to growth and stuff like that.
And, and without overload, without the tension in life,
there's no growth. There's, you know, if we don't
stimulate ourselves, we don't push ourselves beyond our normal
(26:58):
boundaries, what are we doing here?
I mean, there's no growth. And so we have to have those,
you know, social struggles. We have to have, you know, the
hurts in our lives so that we look at ourselves and look at
others. And, you know, I mentioned my
friend Jay, you know, who gave me the the SPIES acronym.
He could have looked back in ourhistory and said, yeah, that guy
(27:18):
was an asshole in school. I don't have anything to do with
him. But the reality is he, he
couldn't even remember. I mean, he was like first time
we had a phone conversation after probably 40 some odd
years. He's like, now I'm trying to
remember, were you one of those persons that you weren't one of
those people that picked on me in school?
And I'm like, well, Jay, yeah, Ikind of was.
It was like, but you know, it was OK because it's like we're
(27:43):
different people now and and we've both grown from that.
And he's who he is, you know, and I'm who I am.
Yeah. Would it be nice to go back and
not do some of those things? Yeah, it'd be great.
But you're not going to. You're going to be different now
and the world would be different.
You know, I always often ask that question, you know, what
(28:03):
would you do if you could go back in time and change one
thing? What would you do?
And for me, it's like nothing because if I change anything,
I'm changing the trajectory of just so many different lives.
Yeah. And so just accept where you're
at now and and move. Just don't be an asshole now.
Yeah, you could have been an asshole in the past, but don't
be on now. And, and how wonderful, how
(28:25):
wonderful is it to look back at who you were and to be a little
ashamed? Yeah, how wonderful is it to
look back and cringe because that means that that person is
not who you are, that you can look at that person and be like,
Nah, dude, that's no, it's a really uncomfortable blessing,
right? You guys have comfortable
blessings. Yeah, somebody told me it's
(28:46):
growth is found in the discomfort of our existence.
It's a good quote. And I was like, oh, I like that.
I like that. It's pretty cool.
It's definitely hearing a lot, alot of good stuff, a lot of good
stuff to kind of plant seeds, kind of make you start thinking,
I haven't thought of it in that direction or something.
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's again, the
point of this podcast is to kindof plant those deeds, get people
(29:08):
thinking outside of their their spiritual boxes.
And I'm looking forward to having some, you know, people
that identify as atheists on there.
One of my next guest was my old roommate when I lived in New
York and we went to church together.
And it was a church that, you know, by many means people would
classify it as a cult. It was a very legalistic church
(29:28):
and, you know, we were there at the same time and it took us to
two very different places. But spiritually, we're both
still very much on the same page.
It's just, you know, I still attend church.
He doesn't. And, you know, he, he's labels
himself as an atheist agnostic. And, you know, I, I've come to
believe in a much bigger God, you know, and, you know, so it's
(29:51):
like, how do we get to these twodifferent spots but still kind
of be in the same spot? And so go ahead.
No, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's that, it's that, that's,
that's so it's interesting to see what people build with the
same tools, you know, and especially when they build
something that also works, you know, it's different when
(30:12):
Someone Like You took something traumatic out of it,
unfortunately, or had something traumatic out of it.
But I, I would be interested to know what people find like if
you had a view personally, I mentioned mad lips.
You know, if you take time everyday, you take 5 minutes a day to
reflect on yourself to, you know, kind of calm your mind.
What do you call that? Do you call that prayer?
(30:33):
Do you call that meditation? Do you call that cognitive
behavioral therapy? Do you call, you know, what do
you whatever you call that, thatactive effort, You know that mad
Lib bug it in there, But you're taking that active act of self
reverence, right? I'm curious to see like what
like some of the things people have plugged into that whereas
you found a bigger God And like for me, like I think you're your
(30:56):
soul, that who you are. That is divinity.
That is the closest thing that there is a divine.
And when people come together, it resonates.
So in that sense, I, I strongly believe that we create divinity.
Does that mean that we create God?
Maybe not as much, but we feel it at a concert.
We feel it when we're watching something tragic that that sense
of like this morning, this joy, this whatever it is, is simply
(31:17):
too heavy for me to carry or create.
But I feel it. We're sharing this.
We're sharing this ethereal thing.
So what if we take that for everything?
What if we recognize that that bond exists with or without the
concert, right, with or without the tragedy.
That is my plugin, you know, is that we create that and I would
love to know, you know, finding somebody who is a little more
(31:40):
disconnected. Like what is that plugin?
What what is the the I don't think explanation, but in your
in your reality, in your world, What is that feeling?
If it's just you're around people in the dopamine cool
science, logic awesome. What would you say is one of the
most like interesting things that you've heard in relation to
(32:01):
people finding, you know, connection with the divine?
One of the most interesting I, Idon't know, I have so many
different ones in there. You know, I think, I mean, as
you were talking, I, I just keptcircling back in my head to
Pierre Tahar D Chardin. And if you've ever heard of him,
he was a, he was a Jesuit priestand a paleontologist and he
(32:23):
wrote the book The Phenomenon ofMan.
And I, I really kind of resonatewith some of his more of his
theology because it's, it's consistent with what I've come
to believe. And yeah, I, I actually studied
geology as an undergrad before Ifound exercise Physiology.
But he, he's famous for saying we are not physical beings
(32:45):
having a spiritual experience. We're spiritual beings having a
physical experience. Yes, yes.
That is literally, literally, that's truly, that is like sums
up kind of how I feel about that, that, you know, you were a
pilot, you were piloting a machine, right?
And that machine can get damagedand messed up.
But to stop and recognize that you, you are impervious.
(33:08):
Oh, my God, I like it. Yeah.
So I think that's probably the best dance make you come up with
with for your question there. That's a great one that that
definitely, that definitely clicks, that definitely
connects. So you also teach you teach 3
universal truths. What are these?
Yeah, so our universal truths are what we kind of build the
(33:29):
structure of our community around.
These are the closer things we have to those like core tenets
of our faith. The 1st is Revere the self.
So again, you are a miracle in motion.
All the things that could have erased you.
I don't just mean like, oh, you fell and bumped your head of the
baby. I'm talking a great, great,
great, great grandparents. I'm talking every plague that
missed your bloodline, every rusty nail that a barefoot
(33:50):
missed, you know, from your, your ancestors, like it didn't
happen. You were literally a miracle and
everything was kind of lined up against that happening.
So to not Revere the self, to not actively take care of
yourself is is like almost a pinagainst the self.
You know, recognizing that, recognizing that that you are
(34:10):
worth self reverence is the the core foundation, right?
And these are done in order to build upon.
So we start with the self. You cannot serve from an empty
plate. The second is to embrace the
communal experience. We are, you know, again,
communal creatures. We're social creatures.
We're meant to connect everything about this maverick,
(34:31):
you know, go out there and do ityourself.
Everything about the American dream of, you know, the mountain
upon yourself. The one man army is designed to
keep you frail and weak and designed to separate you from
the things that would empower you and connect you with
success. To not embrace millions of years
of evolution that said that you are meant to connect with
(34:52):
people. There are solitary creatures in
nature, right? And it's not to say that every
person who doesn't want to be socially connected to people is
is wrong, no, But to say that there are animals that show that
if it was in us to be solitary, we would be we would be we
wouldn't have the need for social interaction.
We wouldn't have a lot of who weare function, but we are we are
(35:14):
kin, you and I right. And people who out there were
listening to this, like if they have no malice in their heart,
there's my number text me. I'm your kin.
I got you. That's how this is supposed to
be. And everything that would divide
us, everything that would separate us is there with
intent, you know, to embrace thecommunal experience is buffet.
Not just, you know, we are kins,come here.
(35:35):
But to stay, we are kins come here because you're safe.
Is that implication? Is it say that it is safe from
things that would make you feel unsafe?
The last that the universe provides.
Now, the universe providing is the message that we talked
about. They have the message for you in
your language. Some people that looks like
traditional theology. You know, we have people in our
congregation who wouldn't say that.
(35:56):
Yeah, they're PAC members and Christians, or you know, they're
PAC members and Buddhists. Killing our pride, swallowing
our arrogance, acknowledging that in an ever expanding
universe, literally ever expanding in this, this what's
designed to experience everything.
Like what kind of arrogance would you have to like agree and
(36:17):
subject yourself to to think that an ever expanding universe,
this is not no. So then what wonders are there?
What if, right, we can look at it like as simple as this.
And this is when talking to people and we talk about this,
this is the most spiritual of our three universal truth.
So people who are less spiritual, who are more on the
atheistic side, this is what I tell people because it's like
(36:38):
universe, OK, cool. Then it's very simple is that
nothing matters or nothing matters.
That's that's it. We can look at the world with
wonder. We can look at this universe
with wonder, or we could look ata kind of a bore and why if
you're revering the self and acknowledging you're the
miracle, that is you. If you're have people in your
life that makes life worth living and makes life full of
(37:01):
just joy, the universe has provided.
Right. And in these three things,
people have found their strength, found empowerment.
You know, it allows people the opportunity to find those things
in their personal faith. You know, your body's a temple,
Revere the self, you know, do unto others embrace the communal
experience. And this is mirrored in a bunch
(37:21):
of other places throughout, you know, different, different
theologies. Judaism, I of course, the the
the name of it skips my mind. There's a phrase specifically.
It's like the communal love, thecommunal good, like, and that's
a part of faith to recognize thestrength of community that is
embracing the communal experience.
These are not some new hippie like Oh, Des took a bunch of
(37:42):
mushrooms and made a bunch of stuff.
Fuck, this is who we are hurt. You know, this is who we are is
stripped of some of the dogma, stripped of some of the baggage,
you know, and to say at the reduction, these are the three
things that help us kind of livegood live right and and it self
regulates. You know, there's no pastor
(38:03):
yelling down at you. There's no angry deity looking
down on you. If we can teach people that they
care of themselves, everything else just naturally builds.
Now, some would say that, you know, you can kind of come to
the same universal truths without psychedelics.
But in your view, what role do psychedelics play in healing
what you call the conspiritual sickness of our modern society?
(38:26):
Oh my gosh. Well, it's so hard to think
where to even start because it'sone the the core of this is
isolation. Isolation.
We have been disconnected. We have been so disconnected
from each other physically, spiritually.
We have been kind of trained andtaught to look at one another as
(38:49):
competition. If I'm unemployed and you're
unemployed, we're competing for the same job, not looking at the
idea that there should be more jobs, right?
Everything about the scraps thatwere thrown, we're told to then
pull scrap some other people. That sense of isolation is sold
to us as as a commodity. It's sold to us at the luxury
(39:10):
and the strength, despite the fact that every single person
who would sell you this concept used a team of people to know
how to sell it to you, right? Right.
So, So what better way to combatthat dedicated, that directed
isolation than to remove the thing that isolates us, the
physicality. Now, regardless of any spiritual
(39:33):
connotation to it, psychedelics open your mind and make you feel
connected because your brain is firing all these neurons, all
these pathways. It is reminding us, with or
without our acknowledgement of the the lack of it, of it inside
of us, that we need that connection, that through these
natural medicines we suddenly are reminded that we are a
(39:56):
boundless entity, not a constrained physicality.
And that means that you are too,which means the only.
The thing that divides us is a physicality in the same way that
these, you know, a camera or whatever.
So we're connected, you know, period, full thought.
We're connected not by blood, not even by faith, but by
energy, by souls, by love, whatever you want to call it,
(40:19):
whatever the word that you plug into that, you know,
psychedelics disconnect you fromthe physical part, which reminds
you then that we're already connected.
And once you feel it, you don't want to have that taken away.
So whenever you go out there andyou have a trip, when you have
this moment of revelry and you're like, I am a part of this
universe, not in it, right? An integral part of it, like you
(40:42):
are somebody who impacts people's days.
It makes you be like, you know what?
I want to maintain that. I want to continue that I want
to grow, like to find the, the true nature of who we are and
our existence that that connection, that desire to be a
community and to do that throughthese natural medicines.
I mean that I think it's hard not to come out spiritual.
(41:03):
I really do. I think it's very hard not to
come out spiritual. And I think right now people
need it. We need the anchors.
We need the connection. You know, even if you do not
want to, even if you 100% you donot subscribe to anything
metaphysical, anything, some mushrooms, a few hits of DMT,
whatever it is, all of a sudden you're, you're looking at people
with that idea of like, oh, we are kind of family, aren't we?
(41:26):
And I think, like I said, it's hard to reject that.
There's magic, you know? And I want people to find that.
And so there's there's been a lot of scientific validation of
psychedelics for mental health coming out in recent years.
And finally, you know, some of the freed up to do a little bit
more research in the area and all that.
(41:46):
And you talked about being a scientist.
How do you distinguish between therapy and spiritual ritual?
Well, let's look at that in two different ways.
The first side, let's look at that strictly legally.
Let's talk about strictly legally.
So therapy is performed by a therapist, a licensed therapist,
somebody who has, you know, received that licensing from
some kind of board here in America.
(42:08):
If you're receiving therapy, then it's going to be from, you
know, a clinician, A psychologist, LMSW, whatever it
may be. A counselor provides counseling
and counseling is legally distinct and then it is not
performed by a licensed professional in that sense here
or you know, a licensed medical professional.
Let me, let me go ahead and clarify that, but I want to be
(42:31):
honest with you. I want to be totally, totally
honest with you. The number of people who have
told me after an hour of spiritual counseling of sitting
down and opening up the heart, opening up some wounds, who've
then said, oh, I, I would never do therapy.
I could never do therapy. It would never work for me.
This was great. This was fantastic.
Same tools, different order. You know what the difference
(42:51):
between a brownie and a Blondie?One has chocolate, one does it
right now. Of course it does open the idea
that spiritual counseling in thehands of people who do not know
what they're doing can do a lot of harm.
Just like with these natural medicines, needing the safety
information to make them tools, not weapons.
Good intentions without proper training, without proper
(43:12):
education, without proper, you know, understanding can harm a
lot of people. So the idea of people kind of
performing spiritual counseling as a way to simply facilitate
natural medicine without the understanding is what are you
going to do if somebody has not just like a bad trip, but
something traumatic comes up because something traumatic can
(43:33):
come up. Are you able to handle that?
Can somebody leave your space knowing that they are they are
put back together? Because on the therapy side, you
absolutely need to know how to do that.
It's a part of your licensing and the counselling side.
You really should. But unfortunately, you know, the
expectation and the reality are different, you know, So that's
(43:56):
why I'm very mindful of the people say, oh, I, I found this
new church. Just make sure you look into it,
make sure you understand even here, even here, people want to
sit down and say, OK, does you say you have a side, side 3?
Where's it from? What was your GPA?
Whatever, Let's talk. I got you.
I'll stand by it, you know, but I don't like I don't perform
therapy. I am a pastor in in that sense.
(44:17):
I provide spiritual counseling. Now if I worked in a church and
I was the one running the food kitchen and prior prior to this,
I ran a, you know, a high end restaurant as a head chef.
How how awesome to have those skills to bring to a food
kitchen. I'm lucky the universe spoke to
me through psychology since science, they spoke to me
(44:39):
through psychology and science, and I'm able to today use those
tools properly legally in in this setting as a pastor.
And I could be more real. I can be more honest.
I think that's the big part too.So you need to talk about a
specific ceremony or a moment where you witness really deep
spiritual transformation throughyour practice.
Oh my gosh, yes, I can 1 instantly remember my
(45:04):
congregation had some family visiting.
This was five months ago, four or five months ago, because we
had just started offering DMT asone of our one of our offerings
on Tuesdays. And so the father was hippie
church. That's a cool hippie church.
I'm like, yeah, that's a pretty cool hippie church.
Yeah, man. And I don't think he was trying
(45:25):
to be, you know, malicious, but he was definitely like, I see
you, dude. I'm like, I don't think you do,
but OK, But it's OK. I greeted it with joy with, you
know, because that's an opportunity right there.
So we're all talking. We have on Tuesdays are our
primary gathering, which is the closest thing we have to a
sermon. So every month we have a main
(45:46):
topic and then we talk about howit relates based on the week.
So first week is the self, second week is your
relationships, third week is thecommunity, and a fourth week is
a wrap up. So this one was specifically
about our relationships. We're talking, we're talking,
we're going through everything. It was a great, great sermon,
really solid, and I said, okay, y'all, we're gonna start
(46:06):
prepping some DMT for some offerings if anybody is
interested. And he's like, you know what,
I'll give it a shot. Now I wanna preface all of this,
but this is one of those momentswhere I had to stop and be like,
shame on me for my prejudgments.The gentleman little, little
heavier, kind of kind of country, a little country and
(46:26):
little accent. And I don't know, I guess when
he came in and his attitude was kind of, you know, a little
dismissive about things. I I wasn't expecting it.
So he's like, I'll try it. Well, cool, let's let's talk.
So I give him the safety spiel because I think he might have
been the only person here who was actually here for the first
time, first time. And I tell him I said, Hey, have
you ever done anything? He's like, no, but you know,
(46:49):
like I'm I can hold my, you know, I'm OK.
Like it's, it's OK. I'm like, OK, like, so are you
spiritual at all? That used to be OK.
Well, get everything prepped up.Explain how to do it.
He takes a little hit, coughs itall out, doesn't get anything
out of it. I'm like, OK, so got to work on
that. So this time what I want you to
do is I want to as fast as you can hold it.
(47:10):
We're going to try to make sure we get that in there.
Put ice. We we got that all prepped for
him because I'm thinking to myself, OK, moment of Kairos.
OK, so get everything prepped up.
We want to put a little extra inthere to make sure that if you
cough again, you still get some.So we put a little extra in
there, but this time he doesn't cough at all at all.
So he takes his full. Now it's not a breakthrough
dose, but it's enough. It's enough to get him to get
(47:30):
him going. 10 minutes later of him literally comes up, he's
really quiet. Really.
It's like OK. And I'm like, oh, is he OK and
actually OK? And to go from very talkative to
like. OK.
People get their gifts. We're starting to wrap up.
And to say that he pulls me aside.
I don't mean like, oh, excuse me, does I mean like like hate
(47:52):
on the show, like can I talk? Can I, can I borrow you for a
second? As he's like actively kind of
giving me a little tug. I'm like, I guess.
So this is the part I always geta little choked up, so I
apologize. So when he was growing up, he
had mentioned that he was very into Norse mythology, that it
was it was a thing for him. And he said that he found Thor
(48:13):
that he actually or Odin, I forgot what it was.
He said he actually found them. Like he heard the voice.
It was like welcome. He said welcome back, welcome
back and could not remember anything else.
Can I remember anything else? And then I tell people DMT can
hit, you know, 2448 hours for the pieces to kind of fall back
into place. And he said that in his heart,
in his heart he knew he connected with Odin, Thor,
(48:36):
whatever it may have been. And it said the words he heard
the actual words. Welcome back.
Oh, I was like to watch here comes and I apologize, OK, Watch
a grown man come in here. Steve is a fun as a joke almost,
but to leave tears in his eyes, truly feeling reconnected with
(48:57):
something he did not realize that he had lost.
I worked mental health for 10 years and in 15 months I have
watched the universe move peoplelike put people on better paths,
connect people with things that they did not know they needed.
And to watch a grown man leaf here, red eyes, you know,
(49:19):
smiling, smiling like a child who has found a toy that he
thought he had lost, that lives seared in my heart.
Ohh. And the beautiful thing is that
this, this moment isn't isolated.
Like things like this have happened in this community.
Things that like this have happened literally right here on
this carpet, people on their knees saying like that was so
(49:41):
beautiful or that they heard something or they felt something
or they saw someone. Just last week during one of our
DMT earlier this week during oneof our DMT ceremonies, during a
moment they do all the fractal, they said they saw a big
dragonfly. And years ago they had lost
their first, their first love. And he liked dragonflies and
(50:07):
said he hadn't thought about himin a while, you know, because
life, but said that in that moment to see this big dragonfly
come up and be like I am, you know, reveal itself and fly off.
I mean, that was just this week to see this happen.
I am lucky to realize that three, you know, three years ago
(50:29):
I was able to save myself, but most people can't and don't have
that opportunity. And here for 15 months we have
been able to do it again and again.
It's not me doing it, it's us. This is ours, not mine.
I am not the leader, I just lead.
It's one of the skills I bring. I'm not above anybody.
I'm I'm on the exact same level as every single person with this
congregation. But to watch when people always
talk about core memories like like it's a child thing as it
(50:52):
kill that kid is making a core memory like we don't do that
still as adults and to watch people reclaim tomorrow here.
Oh amazing. I apologize.
No, it's perfectly fine. Usually it's me that's having
those pause moments and I have to kind of collect myself.
So you. Know.
(51:13):
Wait for the guts to do it as well.
We're, we're meant to feel all of this, the joy, the, the, the,
the fear, the all of it, all of it.
So I tell people to don't followit up.
Let it out, you know, a good conversation is is, you know,
well lubricated. Go.
(51:33):
So do you think mainstream religions like Christianity,
Judaism, Islam something to learn from the psychedelic
spiritual movement? Or is it a fundamentally
different path? There are direct references in
judeo-christian faiths of peopleusing psychedelics to commune
with God. It has that concept of using
(51:55):
these natural medicines to connect with the divine, redate
the hate of using these natural medicines to connect with the
divine. There's so much to be learned.
There's so much to be reconnected.
But but it also then goes back to the idea of, you know, what
is the faith that you're practicing with no disrespect to
anybody directly. It's the idea.
(52:16):
Are you Christian or are you thefate of the person preaching
their version of Christianity atyou?
You know, are you somebody whosereligion preaches love?
But you just thought through a sermon of what I hate, right?
These, these natural medicines, psychedelics, whatever may or
may not be there above us has these here for us to use.
(52:38):
How arrogant is to think that weknow better.
I'm going to sit here. I apologize.
I gotta get my little tissues out.
That's OK. I get the the joy of all of
this. The joy of all of this has just
been amazing. So looking ahead, what is your
your vision for the future of psychedelic spirituality in
America? Is this going to be a
reformation, A revival, or something else entirely?
(53:01):
This is the second psychedelic mental soul.
This is right now. In the 70s, we saw and felt the
communal joy, the communal healing that was made possible.
And what was happening then. What would, what would be
happening in our country that would make us need to squash the
idea that we are in and that we're not supposed to be going
out there killing each other? You know, when we realize that
(53:24):
there was an intention and what that intention was behind
killing the first psychedelic renaissance, then we can see why
they're doing it again now, right?
This will continue. This will grow, right?
This is bringing too much healing.
And I've made my stance very clear.
There is nothing, nothing that will prevent me from connecting
(53:45):
people with the healing that I have already done because I made
not I, I made a promise the day that I connected people with
these natural medicines. And I said that this is not just
say, hey, give me 20 bucks, here's your micro doses.
Good luck. This is me saying this is true
alternative medicine to what is right now completely focused on
(54:05):
profits, completely focused on you deserving the luxury of
Wellness, be it through a prescription or somebody who has
the audacity to put two $3000 onayahuasca or any of the natural
medicines that are being offeredhere.
This movement is is going to become common.
One day. Our movement will have a
(54:26):
necessity. There won't be a need to
advocate because in the same wayright now people are smoking
cigarettes and we're picking up more momentum to get people
comfortable with cannabis and the actual healing that can
bring. We're working on that now, but
there are obvious things happening politically that will
show that, that shows that they will be pushed back to make sure
that this gets squashed again. We got to keep fighting because
(54:46):
now that people have fight on their healing, they need to
recognize that this is the time to fight for it.
And as people out there to recognize that healing is
possible. This is something that you know,
we can help bring. You know, my goal for this is
not to make this a Colorado thing.
We're not to not be the ColoradoPsychedelic Church.
My goal is to know that the Colorado psychedelic church is a
part of, of like the greater congregation or the greater
(55:09):
network of allied psychedelic churches where, you know, we can
have one in Oregon, we can have one in Florida.
We can have one in places where people need healing, which is
everywhere. But of course, we have to do it
legally. We have to make sure that the
the framework is there. You know, looking at a place
like Florida that is actively working to restrict access to
(55:30):
psilocybin because they'd rathersee people dead than healthy.
Florida's economy, you would think, runs on caskets and and
nothing else because they're just hell bent on killing their
citizens. But if there was an Ave. then
I'd be there if there if there was anybody out there who was
like, we want to push for this to be legalized here.
Dez, can you bring people out tohelp?
(55:50):
I got you. Oh, yes.
Because in what we're doing here, in the actual legitimacy
of it, we're not a bunch of hippies showing up in the middle
of Tennessee or in the middle ofwherever being like, hey, we're
here to like fight for this. We're known.
Our momentum is recognized. Healing is validated.
You don't have to like my message.
You can't argue my data. You know, you can look at me and
(56:11):
think I'm just some, you know, weird looking hippie.
Fine, that's cool. I'm not here to to have people
like me. I'm here to remove a 50 year
campaign against the demonization of these natural
medicines and to show that righthere, right now, and I mean
this, there are people in my congregation who would not be
here because they told me. Dez, I walked in here with a
(56:32):
handful of pills in my pocket. Dez, I walked in here like ready
to say, if this doesn't help, I'm just going to go buy the
ammo. There's one gentleman now who
walks in every lounge night, bigsmiles.
Everybody knows him. You would not recognize him the
first time he walked in here because the first thing he said
to me is I think I'm want to kill myself.
And I don't know really where else to go.
And I'm like, why are you here? He's like, because you're a
(56:54):
church and I don't know where else to go.
And I was like, and I'm thinking, so you just Googled
church, said take me to the nearest one and showed up at my
doorstep. Kyros, I'm glad you're there,
brother. Really the case that he just
Google church and that was the first thing that came up.
I mean, if you Google church, ifyou literally like we pop up on
Google Maps, if you type in church nearest to me, you're
(57:15):
taking to the nearest church andyou happen to be around here,
you will come here. Like we're not a church.
We are a church and Kai Ross brought, you know, the universe
brought this man here. And to now know that he is here
every Friday now around his friends hanging out.
Like, I've seen what it looks like.
I've seen the hollow in somebody's eyes when if I don't
(57:36):
interfere, enter like Veen rightnow, you are going to go home
and kill yourself. I've seen that.
And I've seen what happens when people don't.
So I've literally seen that light, that lack thereof here in
this space. And to know that it's not just
some oh, yeah, we're saving lives.
We are actually, which means that this can be done elsewhere,
which means lives can be saved elsewhere.
(57:57):
The second psychedelic renaissance is here to make sure
that the only people who are leaving tomorrow are the
hateful, the malicious, not the kind, you know, not the frail
who've been beaten because of their kindness.
You know, this is my righteous fight in all of this, man.
Like to make sure the right people, the good people know
that tomorrow belongs to you, right?
(58:19):
And this is just, I invite people to come out.
If people want to come out and you don't have the money for a
hotel, we got places to sleep here in the church.
If you need to come out and havehealing, right?
Like we've had people come from out of state, We've had people
come from out of the country. We've done what we can to
connect people and to make sure if the plane ticket is the thing
that gets you here and you don'thave another dime to spend,
fine, I'll offer it to you. The services for free.
(58:41):
We already make the natural medicine for free.
But if you're like Dez, this DMTceremony, the four hour retreat,
this I think really would changemy life.
All I need is for you to write me a letter, handwrite me a
letter that explains why you think it'll be good for you.
Because I just want to know thatif you can give me that amount
of energy, then I will give you everything you need to reclaim
tomorrow. And I'm going to end with that
because I don't think I could ask another question or give a
(59:04):
concluding statement that will top that.
So that's going to be, I love that.
Thank you for listening. I hope you benefited from
today's podcast. And until next time, keep aging
well.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.