What Is “Medicine 3.0”? A New Way to Think About Health Span | Ep. 266 - The Aging Well Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Aging Well podcast, where we explore the
science stories and strategies behind living a longer,
healthier, and more purposeful life.
In this episode, we're talking about the future of healthcare,
not in some distant sci-fi reality, but right now.
Joining me today is Ryan Schneider, Co founder of Thrive
25, a movement that is redefining what it means to

(00:25):
thrive as we age. Along with his partner Max
Laffer, Ryan is leading the charge in what is being called
medicine 3 point OA shift from reactive, symptom based
treatment to a personalized, proactive approach to lifelong
health. With over 300 published articles
and experience guiding more than15,000 people through their
health goals, Ryan brings a practical and deeply informed

(00:47):
perspective on how to optimize your health using biomarkers,
daily habits, and a supportive community.
If you're looking to age with clarity, confidence, and energy,
this episode is for you. Well Ryan, welcome to the Aging
Wall podcast. Let's start by having you tell
us a little bit about yourself and what is medicine 3 point O
And how is this fundamentally different than traditional

(01:10):
medicine? Thanks, Jeff.
I appreciate the chance to speakwith you.
You know, medicine 3 dot O is kind of a the term coined by
Doctor Peter Attia in his book Outlive.
I mean, there's plenty of other experts that have said it too.
But really it's looking at how do we focus on prevention
instead of reactive medicine? How do we think about us as
individuals as opposed to a general population and generic

(01:32):
advice? And then also looking at risk a
little differently, right? I think in the healthcare
system, their job is to help keep us alive.
But in medicine, 3 dot O you know, I don't care.
My doctor might care if I'm going to have a heart attack in
the next 5 years. I care about the next 25 to 35
years, right? So we're trying.
So it's a different definition of risk.
So preventative care focused on the individual and thinking

(01:56):
about our personal goals and needs from a much longer time
horizon and and focused on that health span and the quality of
life. So what inspired you and Max to
launch Drive 25, and what gap inhealthcare were you really
trying to fill? So.
When this is right around 2019-2020, I was turning 40

(02:16):
pretty soon and having my secondchild and I was doing the math
and I recognized that I was going to be 58 when he's
graduating high school. And I thought back to all the
memories of playing sports with my dad and just the active
family life that we had growing up and, and they my parents had
started a family much earlier. And I was starting to.
Feel a little bit of that stressstarting to feel my body just

(02:39):
change a little bit from being an athlete growing up.
And I said, you know, I I've always kind of been that go to
resource for my friends and family.
Hey, what do you think about this diet?
What do you think about this exercise or work out?
But I was feeling that myself and I said, you know, we have to
really formalize this because I have to redefine what 506070
means because I'm still going tobe playing basketball with that
guy when we're when I'm 60 yearsold.
We're still going to be hiking together when I'm 70 with me and

(03:02):
my wife. And so this was a way to educate
ourselves to really help everyone change how we age,
right? Get rid of that 16 to, you know,
years of chronic disease that the average American is
grappling with at the end of life.
And as I went to look at all these resources that were out
there, so many of them were veryexpensive.
I just moved from California to Florida because because my wife

(03:24):
grew up here and we were gettinghelp with our grand grandparents
for our kids and I wasn't makingthe kind of money I was in the
past. And everything I looked to and
turned to for longevity help forthis preventative medicine was
very expensive. And I said there's got to be a
better way than just either listening to podcasts or
spending $3000 for a longevity clinic.
So how can we help bridge the gap there and make this

(03:48):
preventative care a little bit more accessible to everybody?
So our pathways aren't that muchdifferent.
I had my first son about the same time you had your second
son. I have a daughter that turned 17
today and I'm, I just turned 62 on Wednesday.
So kind of in that same boat andsame goals and everything else.
And I'm sure there's a lot more of us out there now.

(04:10):
We just did a podcast episode there and I think on Sunday that
was talking about the health benefits of, you know, having
later life pregnancies for womenand which was kind of
interesting because we were fearful, You know, my wife and I
got married late and having, youknow, kids in our early 40s.
You hear about all the risks that kind of go with that.

(04:30):
And then you have to look at, OK, well, what's it going to be
like when I'm 60 and my kids 20,you know?
So. Yeah.
So you talk about making longevity accessible to
everybody. How do you make this practical
for people who aren't elite athletes and the wealthy
biohackers? And I think we could probably
infer which wealthy biohacker we're talking about there, but.

(04:52):
Yeah. So there's a couple things.
So one of the things that we're doing is we're bridging this,
you know, AI technology that everyone's talking about in in
so many different fields with traditional healthcare.
You know, you and I started thisconversation beginning there.
There's so many flaws in our current system, but it's the
system that many people are stuck with.
And so how can we help people navigate that system, Educate

(05:15):
themselves to use that system a little bit better in a way that
maybe there's this tool that they can have in their pocket
for less than the cost of Netflix that gives them at least
50% the value as if they went tolike a doctor.
Or or hope. 80% the value of that.
So I'll give you an example. My father, you know, had his PSA
done, went to get his prostate biopsy.

(05:36):
And then no typical, I shouldn'tsay typical, but this doctor's
bedside manner was well, first thing out of their mouth.
That's cancer, right? And so even a non emotional
person, your reptilian brain kicks into gear, your cerebral
cortex disappears and you can't really have a conversation.
So in in building like somethinglike a Thrive 25.
What if, as he's scheduling thattwo days beforehand, he gets

(05:57):
that alert and says, hey, here are the questions to ask going
into that biopsy. By the way, when you get your
results, they're going to be recorded as Gleason scores.
Here's the numbers and the ranges based on that number.
Here are some questions you could ask the doctor to have a
conversation about that. So we're not sending anyone back
to Med school that you have to learn everything.
But we're empowering them enoughto say, OK, now I'm not just
hearing the word cancer and being fearful.

(06:19):
I know there's a big difference between the number 5 and the
number 10, and I can have a conversation about that and know
what to do next. Similarly for women, right?
12% of mammograms are false positives.
And so before you freak out, here are the questions of making
sure you're helping your doctor navigate what to do next and
validate you know what we shoulddo.
So these are just a little. You know, some examples of ways

(06:41):
in which we're empowering peopleto do that.
And then even on the lab tests, right, there's plenty of
startups and big companies now you see charging $500 or more to
go get your labs done. If you ask the right questions
during your physical, you can get the majority of those
biomarkers through your doctor'soffice.
And what the problem is, you're going to get those results from
Quest and you're not going to make heads or tails of them.

(07:03):
They don't tell you what the acronyms are.
They don't really tell you what optimal is versus normal.
But what we built is a platform that you can upload those
results from anywhere seamlesslyinto our app.
And then we give you a report that looks just like the best
biomarker report in the world that you would get from these
high end clinics and tells you exactly what everything is, why
it's important, all layman's terms that a fifth grader could

(07:23):
understand. And then gives you some actions
you can take based on those results to help you get it into
that optimal range before you look at any pharmaceutical
recommendations from. And I like that you're using the
term optimal as opposed to just simply normal because those of
us aging, we know that normal isoften much lower than is really
optimal. And a lot of times while you're

(07:44):
in the normal range, so you're OK.
And it's like, not really because optimal is going to help
me to age better. And so I like that you're using
that term optimal and stress on that.
And I think there's something sokey.
To pull out that I'd love to share, Jeff is.
Normal is actually defined AS2 standard deviations from the
mean when we're doing those results.
So when Questor, LabCorp are pulling that together, 95% of

(08:07):
all test results are going to beclassified as normal.
So as we've become more unhealthy as a society, normal
continues to adjust. So even like very validated
medical institutions, Northwestern Cleveland Clinic,
they're going to report put backthings like ALT, which measures
the fat in our liver, that normal range is much higher
today than it was 20 or 30 yearsago.

(08:28):
And so when we define optimal, we're actually saying this at
above this point or below this point, you're actually changing
your risk of disease. Normal today is not doing that.
It's literally just the statistical measure.
You, I'm sure you've seen the study from Tufts and and others,
like 93% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy.
And I just find it fascinating that 93% of us can be unhealthy,

(08:50):
but 90, 25% of us are going to get lab results that say we're
normal. Like what kind of disconnects
obviously exist there. And so, yeah, we've done the
research and, and and and lookedat all.
We have a medical Advisory Boardand talk to others.
How do we? Really help people identify
where they should be as opposed to what, like you said, what
normal might be presented to youin in your doctor's office.

(09:11):
So how? How do you use biomarkers and
personal data to inform your clients health strategy?
Yeah. So we put together, you know,
you mentioned the question at the very beginning, this isn't
just for, you know, a weekend warrior.
This isn't someone that's tryingto maybe live to be 120.
This is just your everyday person who's trying to be there
for their kids, continue to showup and and not have chronic

(09:32):
disease in their life. We think it's very challenging
to change complete behavior on asustainable level, right?
Someone takes a diet, they don'ttypically stick with it, you
know, and so you need two things.
You need a very important why, why are you making that change?
And you need to make it to whereit fits into your lifestyle with
minimal friction. And So what we've done is we've
put together what we call quick wins, these like daily habits

(09:54):
that are very much scientifically backed, tied to
each of those biomarkers that can start to make a difference
and you can see results. So this might be something like
flossing for your C reactive protein, which is a marker of
inflammation. This might be taking it every
single day, a walk after dinner and not eating for.
Three hours before you go to bed, if you have high fasting

(10:15):
insulin or glucose, we even get into details like uric acid,
which is another metabolic marker that's very important.
If you have high purines, which is an amino acid that's going to
increase your uric acid. Well, there's a lot of purines
in in beer, but not so much in wine and tequila.
So we're very specific to say we're like, hey, cut out the IP
as if you're high in uric acid. And these are things again, that

(10:38):
you pick two or three of these, you can seamlessly fit into your
lifestyle, start to track it over, you know, a period of a
month, six months to a year, andyou get your results back and
start to say, oh, wow, I'm seeing a difference.
Or I know why I'm doing this, this specific habit.
And then you can start to stack that right.
We know it's a snowball effect. Once you start to make one

(10:59):
healthy decision, you can make more.
But it's not about trying to getpeople to change their entire
life. It's meeting them where they are
and they can pick these habits, but they know exactly why
they're doing. Because they see like we started
with they're. Not in the optimal range for
that biomarker. And so now it's not a nice to
have to maybe take that walk or skip that drink, but rather it's

(11:19):
I know exactly what this can do for my long term.
Health. Yeah.
I think one of the questions that they never asked in
medicine is why not. You know, we, we, we try to
stress the why. You know what you got to do this
because it's, it's the healthy choice.
So they tell you lose weight, but nobody asked why can't you
lose weight or why can't you take that walk in the evening?
Well, I live in a dangerous neighborhood.

(11:41):
I can't just go walking around the block or, you know, I have
this problem or that problem. And I think it's important that
you're asking kind of the why you're stressing the why not as
well as the why. I could agree more.
And so where we are today with the Thrive 25 platform is
exactly you said is giving the people choice, knowing what they
can opt into. What we're building now is more

(12:02):
of a health. Practical health hub where?
People can put more of that information, like you said, not
only what are their goals, what,what's their environment, right?
Where, what are they able to do?What are they not able to do?
What are they honest with themselves that they're willing
to change or not willing to change?
And then the AI advisor has actually more information than
anyone doctor and will never give a recommendation that's out

(12:25):
of turn for that individual. So just as a few examples, we
have, you know, individuals thatmight be low in vitamin D, we
know their zip code. We, we know their blood results
into like the first day of spring.
We're like, hey, you live in Chicago.
Guess what? Good news, you can finally get
vitamin D between the hours of 11 and two moving forward.

(12:46):
So get outside and if you can't get outside, here's the specific
ways you can get up to 50 nanograms per milliliter and,
and, and take the right dosage to supplement.
Or someone had, you know, high basophils, which are like the
white blood cells tied to allergies.
We know their zip code. We know that they're a runner.
Hey, the pollen is extremely high in Atlanta today.

(13:06):
Make sure you take some precautions.
You know, we always advise goingoutside, but if you want to get
on the treadmill today, you knowyou're you're, we know you're.
Susceptible to allergies? These are the little.
Things that again, feel like they're not game changing, but
over time, these little nudges are what's going to change
People's Daily habits and, and how they live and, and their
health in a, in a big way. And that's where I think AI can

(13:26):
be, you know, really, really powerful if it's aligned towards
where people already want to go and it has that information,
like you said. So, so you're so right, the why
not versus the why? So what are some of the most
under appreciated or overlooked markers of aging well?
Do you are, are you thinking like from a biomarker
perspective or just more of a, you know, more high level how

(13:50):
people are feeling? What?
What do you? What do you?
What do you mean? Well, I mean, I guess you could
take that question either way you want.
I'm thinking kind of biomarkers as well as kind of just the
general, you know, biomechanical, psychosocial kind
of markers that can indicate aging.
So I, I look at, you know, from a biomarker perspective and,
and, and again, I'll preface this, I'm, I'm, I think I have

(14:13):
an honorary degree of some sort of, I've written 450 newsletters
which have all been, I'll tell you, diligently researched over
the last four years. But I, I am not a PhD or a
doctor, but everything that I come back to is your metabolic
health and your inflammation. And so I, I look at like the,
the, the triglycerides, fasting insulin, fasting glucose, A1C

(14:35):
and the C reactive protein because more and more, whether
it's heart disease, whether it'scancer, obviously diabetes in
the metabolic issues where we'renot living with the energy we
want to have. All of that starts with how
efficiently are we taking fuel into the body and being able to
use that for energy. And that's the crux of all of
this. And so I think those are just
obviously the essential markers.And then C reactive protein from

(14:58):
the. The research I've read.
More and more of all of our health is tied to our immune
function and the more we put stress on our body and we have
inflammation and the immune function is is just overly
engaged just to keep us. Well, it can't recover, it can't
repair. And there's more research even
in heart disease where often times where you see the issues,

(15:19):
where there's going to be a blockage in our heart disease,
that repair is in a place where the immune cells couldn't
actually repair it the right way.
It's not just the cholesterol that was running through your
veins. And so I think inflammation from
stress, inflammation from the wear and tear we're putting on
our bodies, the toxins we're exposed to, whether that's

(15:40):
through food or environment, I think all of those markers are
are really, really key that people need to pay attention.
So can you walk us through a typical health optimization plan
for someone in their 50s or 60s?So I think in their 50s or 60s,
again, it's going to be around mindset, it's going to be around
movement, it's going to be around sleep and nutrition.

(16:03):
And then we look at a lot of connection and fun.
So we, we actually have 9 elements of health and longevity
that we put together. And, you know, I think one of
the things that is completely missing and I, from what I've
seen 5050 and 60 year olds and you can tell me if I'm right or
wrong, start to have more fun and laugh and smile a little bit
more. In your 40s.

(16:24):
You're kind of in the in the thick of it with raising kids
potentially or really trying to still be going 100 miles an hour
in your job to to build your wealth.
And typically there's a dip in that happiness curve and, you
know, reading the book. Like the good life?
From Robert Wageninger and the the Harvard long Harvard study,

(16:44):
happiness study. It's really around the
connection and the people you surround yourself with.
And I've seen stats that, you know, kids laugh 300 times a day
and as adults that can be under 10.
And so again, going back to thatstress and that mindset,
everything flows from how you'refeeling.
And do you have that positive intention going into the day
when you wake up and, and how you're living throughout those

(17:05):
those waking hours? So I, I, I think it starts there
with what's going to bring joy and happiness to your life and
give you that positive mindset. And then you can figure out how
do I eat? How do I sleep?
How do I move in a way that doesn't just feel like a chore.
It doesn't feel like I have to take my medicine, if you will,

(17:26):
but rather it fits into a lifestyle that makes me still
feel good about what I'm doing. Because at the end of the day,
why are we trying to live longerif we're not living better and
enjoying the, you know, the timewe have?
And so I, I, we, we start there a lot with the, the mindset and
the human connection piece. And then we'll get into kind of
the specifics of how to move, how to eat, how to sleep.
That's interesting because I've been, I teach exercise science,

(17:49):
I, I teach a class in Physiologyor pathophysiology and exercise.
And having taught that for so many years, I kind of came to
the conclusion early on that, you know, if you want to be
healthy and you want to have good longevity, exercise,
physical activity, healthy diet,maintain healthy body
composition and don't smoke. Those were the four things.
And in doing this podcast over the last three plus years, more

(18:11):
and more things have come up like sleep, sleep being so
important to managing our hormones, managing our recovery,
our brain health, all those things.
And most surprisingly was socialconnection.
And so we've started stressing purposeful social connection as
being one of our kind of pillarsof aging well.
And I think that and sleep have started to elevate and I'm

(18:35):
probably, you know, not doing justice to my field, but, you
know, it's, it's suddenly I think sleep and social
connection really rises above the importance of exercise, you
know, because if we don't have those things, we're not going to
be able to effectively exercise and recover from the exercise.
So I think it's great that you're underscoring that idea
of, you know, social connectionsbeing so important to us being

(18:58):
healthy as we age and particularly in our 50s and 60s,
because that's when we start to really detach ourselves from
other people. You know, you're retiring from
work, all those people you worked with day after day after
day, you're not having contact with on a regular basis.
And you know, you get older, youget in your 70s, eighties now
you're starting to lose those social connections.
And so how do we regain those? You're so right.

(19:19):
And I think when you talk about how do you regain those, there's
actually a group of guys that were out in LA and we've now
replicated it since I moved to Florida of, of having a weekly
sunrise walk and, you know, sharing just the basic question,
what are you navigating? What are you celebrating?
And so there's a couple things there.
You mentioned exercise and social connection.

(19:41):
When you put the two together and you're actually walking at
sunrise with someone, we're fortunate to do it along the
water that you're getting the movement and you're getting the
connection. When I lived in LA, it was the
sunrise surf session, right? You've got five guys, you're out
there, you're surfing, you're inthe fresh air, you're getting
the water and what better way tostart the day and you're already

(20:02):
you're already playing with the house's money And what all you
have to do is to, like you said,to think about how important
connection is. Think about when you go home
after work to dinner or what theever the end of the day is, how
you felt that day was. If you're starting that day
surrounded by people that you just enjoy being around.
Versus if you kind of go throughthat day, waking up, trudging
through whatever morning routineby yourself is having breakfast,

(20:24):
going to work, coming home and not having that social
interaction. It's night and day in terms of
how you feel. And so I think, you know, just
like your mindset, like you said, you're not going to be
able to exercise, you're not going to be able to make the
right decisions without that connection.
I think if if you're not in the right mindset, if you're not
having fun with those social connections, you're just much

(20:45):
more likely to make poor choicesin those other pieces too.
So it might still be that what you eat and how how much you're
moving and how much sleep you'regetting matter a lot, but you're
going to be making those choiceswhen you're in a good positive
mindset, connecting with others.And so that's where there's a
lot of synergy I think, at play together.
And that's where we put the purposeful in front and really
stress that because you can havesocial connections, you can have

(21:06):
your buddies that you're going out drinking beers with and
watching Monday Night Football and doing all that, but that's
not necessarily promoting healthy longevity behavior for
yourself. And it can actually bring you
down rather than really bring you up.
And like you said, getting up inthe morning during that sunrise
walk with people that are givingyou positive affirmations and

(21:26):
feedback and encouragement is going to go much farther than
having a bunch of, you know, buddies that you're just kind of
drinking with and they're not really, you know, maybe you're
complaining about your spouse's or your jobs and everything else
that's not helpful, that's not healthy.
You're, you're absolutely right.And as you think about that,
what we've, what I've seen the research on, and I think this is
especially true for this is a generalization, But men who just

(21:49):
aren't as open to sharing oftentimes and being, like you
said, going beyond what, what sporting event you're watching
on TV as, as maybe some women are.
But when you're not face to facewith someone, but you're just
walking parallel with them, yourguard comes down a little bit.
And what I found is when we're outside just walking, there's
just an openness and a vulnerability that you might not

(22:10):
get when you're sitting there ata restaurant.
And you kind of pose that question as if you're going to
like, oh, we're going to talk real stuff now, right?
We're going to talk about our partners or we're going to talk
about our families. But when you're out walking and
you kind of know that this is anintention for our health as
opposed to, like you said, just drinking, all of a sudden you
just, you're kind of like looking out over the horizon and

(22:30):
you're walking next to someone and it's less intense and you
just kind of let your guard down.
And there's something pretty magical about that.
So I definitely advise groups that get together, if you're not
finding a way to connect at thatlevel that's supportive of the
people. One, it might be the people
you're with. People can be as much a toxin or
a fuel as food can be. But two, it's what's the

(22:52):
setting? Like you said, if you're just
eating chips and nachos, which Ilove, but and watching sports at
a sports bar drinking beer, that's going to be a much
different engagement than if you're out walking, surfing,
doing a jog, you know, or something where you're, you're
purposefully taking care of yourbody and your.
Mind, So what are some daily habits you've found to be most
powerful in supporting long termvitality?

(23:14):
So for me, the thing that I start with is I I move right as
soon as I get up in the morning.So I know everyone talks about a
perfect morning routine. I don't think I believe in that.
I think it's whatever works for other people.
We all have our chronotype. We all should get up when we
should get up. For me, I get up a little bit
before my kids because that thattime to me is very important.

(23:35):
But you know, you heard the doctor Hubermans and others
talking about getting light in your eyes and shifting from
sleep to wakefulness. I actually find its movement.
I literally wake up right next to my bed.
I do 25 push ups before I even walk 3 feet away from from my
bed and I just find the blood starts flowing and I literally
go from like slumber to like being ready to kind of tackle

(23:57):
the day. And then I'm just having a lot
of water. I'm getting outside.
I'm taking at least 15 minutes for myself before I have to
start taking care of my kids, which dominates the rest of my
morning. But it just sets that intention.
So that's kind of what I do in the morning.
I'm work I'm. Moving every single day.
I my my wife will tell you if I'm not if I come home and I

(24:19):
have an exercise that day, the just a little bit on it edge
compared to maybe those days that I'm not and so.
I I think. One of the things I'm really
good at is following the you know, lifting heavy weights
couple times a week, doing cardio 3 to 4 times a week, and
doing some hip workouts. You can probably appreciate
this. The one thing where I I missed
the boat a little bit is on mobility.

(24:41):
If my schedule ever gets. Too.
Crowded. It seems like the yoga or the
mobility day is the first thing that I kind of punt on.
And I know I can't do that. I know I need to get better at,
at making sure mobility is there.
But those are the big things that I, that I think I, I try to
take care of my wife and I do try to keep a very consistent

(25:02):
sleep schedule. I love the rule.
Don't stay up for something you wouldn't set your alarm to wake
up for because most of us are watching Netflix, scrolling
through our phones, and that's what's keeping us up at night
and we're just not going to bed.And it's getting a bit of sleep.
And it's like, well, how important is this to me really?
Would I wake up earlier just to do that thing?

(25:23):
And when you find the answer is no, then it it.
Starts to change your mindset and it's a lot easier to go to
bed a little bit earlier. Yeah, that's a good rule of
thumb. I have to pay attention to that.
And you're right about mobility.I'm the same way.
And but for me, a lot of it comes down to priority.
And I, you know, I have to teachmy students the importance of
flexibility. It's like, but you know, this is

(25:44):
this is not how I practice because if I haven't half hour
to exercise in the morning, I want to spend that 30 minutes
doing the weights or doing the cardio.
If I take 5 minutes, 10 minutes to stretch, it's taken away from
that activity that's going to give me the greatest
productivity. So it's like I have to make sure
that I'm maintaining my mobility, but not really, I'm
not doing enough to really improve it.

(26:06):
And so I need to get better at that.
And so maybe being on this podcast and being recorded here,
I'm kind of saying now in my 62nd year, I, I will commit to
doing a little bit more mobilityexercise and more stretching.
Yeah, and I, I just had a wake up call.
My wife actually for our anniversary got me a deep tissue
massage and I very rarely take care of myself doing those types

(26:28):
of things. And you know, I said I don't
come very often. Let's really beat me up and, and
get all the, all the knots out that you can.
And, and she did. And man, I was sore for a couple
days. My calves, my, my, IT band, my,
my, my back. I mean, she literally said she's
like, I'm not here to sell you on anything, but you need to
come back because I, there's a lot of knots in there.
And I recognize that, you know, it is really important to keep,

(26:51):
keep those muscles limber because the more we restrict
our, our range of motion and getinjured, that's the biggest
problem, right? Like you again, sure, you know
this better than I do. But as soon as someone gets laid
up for two or three weeks where they throw their back out or
they, you know, have some other injury and they stop just doing
any cardio or lifting for a little bit.
As you get older, it's a. Whole lot harder.

(27:12):
To get back into it and that loss of muscle, that loss of
strength, or that's when it starts to snowball and you start
to wake up and all of a sudden you're like, whoa, I'm not even
close to the shape I was in 2-3 years ago.
And so it's really about keepingyourself upright so you can keep
feeling good to go on those walks or jogs.
So this kind of builds off of that.
How important is mindset in yourwork, and how do you help people

(27:36):
shift from a reactive to proactive mindset about health?
So this I'm going to answer. Two parts of that question.
I think the second part of Reactproactive versus reactive part
of health is. Very, very good question on
mindset. Here's one thing I will say is.
I I always get. The question so Ryan, what's the
biggest thing you've learned of writing 450 newsletters that I

(27:58):
should do for my health? And obviously it's an unfair
question. Everyone's different, we're all
unique. How am I supposed to answer
that? But what I do come back to that
I think is the most universal thing that's helped me
personally and the people I've spoken to is it's not about
meditating 10 minutes a day. It's not even about doing breath
work, but the concept of taking the pause.
So throughout our day, we're going to be hit with a bunch of

(28:21):
stressors. We're going to be hit with a
bunch of big decisions, things coming at us.
And if we just constantly react to it, we're not being
thoughtful and we can go down some bad paths.
It can make us more emotional and so.
I look at like the. Could be 5 seconds, it could be
30 seconds. But how do I change from
reacting to what's happening to me at life to responding right?
So there's some phenomenal research from the late Daniel

(28:44):
came in around. We have two types of ways of
thinking in our brain system 1 and 295% of all of the decisions
we make are subconscious and we just react to to life.
But the 5%, when we can bring our cerebral cortex into the
decision making process, it takes a lot of energy, takes a
lot of glucose actually to do. But when we do that, we almost
become those the world's best athletes.

(29:05):
Like if you look at like the Brady's, the Jordans of the
world, they were playing chess. They saw things happening before
it happened, right? Obviously Wayne Gretzky's famous
quote of where the puck is goingto be, that's what they're
doing. They're responding, they're
being thoughtful. And so I'm like, how do we do
that in our everyday life, not just in the sports?
And so I think if people can be more mindful and respond to

(29:26):
things. Every other thing we just talked
about, whether it means to exercise or not to go for that
walk or not play with our kids, whatever it might be.
The more we can take that pause,I think the more we can change
the direction of our day, our positive outlook and, and
mindset and, and the gratitude we have for things.
So that's my one thing that I actually mindset is our number

(29:47):
one element that we start with because I think everything
funnels from there in terms of being reactive or proactive in
your health. It's a really challenging thing.
I think we can complain about our healthcare system, but how
many of us wait until something's a problem to take
care of it, right? I mean, it's just it's human
nature. And so I think even longevity
and talking about health span we've seen doesn't really move

(30:08):
the needle with a lot of the people we work with as well.
And so it really has to be what's the immediate benefit I'm
getting out of that? And So what what we've seen is
it has to be I'm feeling more energetic or stronger or feeling
better today. And I'm getting the long term
impacts of that because otherwise, if you're just
telling me I'm not going to havechronic disease in 20 years, the

(30:31):
average person will wait 20 years to deal with it, right?
And so it's all about how peoplefeel.
And I think it's we've gotten tothis point where our new normal,
going back to the concept of what's normal versus optimal is
I wake up and I have a more, youknow, maybe I'm tired after
lunch. Maybe I have a brain fog as I'm
working after I have my coffee and it sets, you know, it starts

(30:52):
to diminish the the caffeine. And so for us, it's like, how do
we get people to recognize that they're not living optimally,
that their energy could be higher?
And then once they feel that, it's like all of a sudden the
blinders have been taken away and that's what they want right
now. And that's then obviously going
to help them in the long run. That takes us back to our desire
for immediate gratification. Absolutely so.

(31:15):
What are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have
about longevity or preventative care?
Well, I think the. The message is coming out a
little bit more clearly from thethe biggest influences that are
out there. I was listening to to respect
the doctors speak and they were talking about supplements.
They were talking about a lot ofthis research around, you know,

(31:35):
these new pharmaceuticals like rapamycin or, you know,
metformin or some other things. And you know, one of them said
that's that we're talking about the 2 1/2 to 5% impact on
longevity. When what you and I have been
talking about so far, Jeff, is, is really the 95% of what people
do. I still think people are, you
know, since David Sinclair's book Lifespan came out and we're

(31:57):
talking about sirtuins and resveratrol and, you know, all
this new science that's coming out there with peptides, I think
people are waiting for science to give them the answer, right?
We, we want that magic pill. You look at an individual like
Brian Johnson who's taking what,I don't know, I looked 54 pills
a day or whatever that stack is that he thinks his biological

(32:19):
age is, is stopping. And there's nothing wrong with
that because there's going to bea lot of learnings that we'll
get from individuals that are doing that.
But I think people have to recognize it's just what you're
doing day in and day out, how you're living.
All the things we've talked about, mindset, energy, joy, the
decisions of fuel versus poison,what we're exposing ourselves

(32:39):
to, how grateful we are for living in the moment.
Anyone who's lived to 100, they're, they haven't
historically, they're not the ones that have thought about
optimizing their health. They just lived the best life,
right And then, and I think that's what people have to get
back to is more of this natural way of we have this gift every
day that our eyes open for us, the sun comes up and we can live

(33:00):
amongst, you know, people we love.
Hopefully, I think taking advantage of that and then
allowing the science to come to market and seeing where that can
help around the edges. That's not what the biohacking
that you mentioned the beginning, that's not what
matters the most. In many ways, I think it matters
the least. You know, you really think of,
you know, what you're stacking in order to have good health,

(33:22):
span longevity, you know, it's the most important things that
you're doing that take up maybe 50% of help us to live longer.
And it's really maybe that top 5% of things that are going to
come from the supplements and the bio hacks and all that other
kind of garbage that's out there.
I mean, you don't hear anybody in the blue zones talking about

(33:42):
bio hacks. I, I've not heard of a single
story about somebody from one ofthe blue zones that, you know,
well, the reason we're all able to live longer is because we
have this magic root that grows in our, you know, forests and
we're all taking that and that'swhy we live longer.
So how can the current healthcare system evolve to
better support Medicine 3 Point O and its model?

(34:05):
Well, my Co founder Max, who's been in healthcare consulting
for over 20 years will tell you the buzzword of value based care
has been a buzzword for 20 years.
It's always on the cusp. It's always this thing that's
that's coming around. But I do think that there's
we're starting to see people take more control of their
health, right. We started with the conversation

(34:26):
of biomarkers. I don't know what.
What it's like with you, my, my parents were not ever talking
about that. That wasn't something that they
sought out when they went to gettheir physical right.
And so I think just not just people that could be called
biohackers, but the average folks listening to this podcast
are asking for those numbers andwant to know what those are.
So I think. A lot of it is going to be the

(34:48):
consumerism of healthcare that we're just demanding that those
shifts happen. That's going to be the big
thing. And, and like I said, so part of
the other thing that we put together, I mentioned the
example of my dad knowing what to ask about the prostate
biopsy, But we even built a preventative care plan that, you
know, under the Affordable Care Act, there's actually a lot of
preventative screenings and appointments and things that we

(35:10):
have that are absolutely provided to us typically, even
without a co-pay under our private insurance, Like you
can't be charged a co-pay for your annual physical.
Like you literally if, if, and many doctors office will code it
the wrong way and try to charge you $30 like that.
Do do not pay that. And, and so, but like, you know,
for women getting, you know, cervical cancer screenings,

(35:33):
which are now much less invasivewith new technologies, you know,
getting your colonoscopies, getting, you know, tracking
your, your prostate and your mammograms, going to the
dermatologist, going to your optometrist, going to the
dentist, You know, these are allthings that are now available to
us to at least to some extent, start to take that away.
And as some of these full body Mris or other, you know, liquid

(35:54):
biopsies come online, I think, you know, the health, the health
insurance will start to bring that into the fold as well from
a preventive standpoint. But it's on us to know when to
go. So again, that's why Thrive 25
exists. It's like, hey, did you know
every two years you can get to the screening?
Let's do that and we remind you and give you the nudge to
actually go. And here's the questions to come
up that bring up. So I think it's it's going to be

(36:14):
empowering ourselves to do it and then using technology that
says, wow, there, what is available.
Let's actually take advantage ofthat.
And then we keep pushing the industry to bring more of that
those preventative care things that are very expensive right
now, but we can bring them into the fold for for everyone as
that technology becomes more affordable.
It seems to me that the preventative approach as opposed

(36:36):
to reactive approach is far moreeconomical than going to
reactive. Because if you can screen
somebody early and determine that you know they're at risk of
cancer, not even if they have cancer, but they're at risk and
they can get them to change behavior.
How many hundreds of thousands of dollars and or more are you
saving by preventing that personfrom getting cancer or heart

(36:58):
disease or diabetes or the list goes on?
Yeah, one of the challenges is as more and more individuals
work at shorter spans in a givenjob, right?
Like we're all switching jobs after a couple years.
There's a, there's a, there's a perverse incentives of, OK, now
I'm paying for this preventativeservice and you're probably not

(37:20):
going to be on my payroll when that claim comes to fruition,
right? Because we're not working 2025
years at GE or anything like maybe our parents or
grandparents did. And so the question is who's
going to pay the upfront cost where there's undoubtedly an
ROI, but that long term payment might be by another party.
And so we are trying to look at who, where are those?

(37:43):
It all follows the money and follows the incentives and it's
like, how can the system still be better off to pay for those
preventative services now? Because we are trying to get
Thrive 25 into self insured employers and saying, look, if
you have this data, all of your team members know their
biomarkers and they start changing their behavior.
It only takes one or two claims of people not needing a GL P1,

(38:07):
not needing, you know, other medications, not needing, you
know, to go down a pathway of heart disease or cancer for you
to really save a lot of money. So we're trying to make that
economic argument. But you have to look at the, you
know, they're all looking at thedollars and cents and saying,
you know, hey, is this 40 year old going to be working here
when he or she is 50? If not, do they really care?

(38:28):
Yeah. And that's that's kind of a sad
story because it's still costingus in the long run if we, you
know, really face ourselves in the mirror and say, OK, well,
yeah, I'm not, I don't want to pay for this person.
It's not going to be working forme.
But down the road, overall Healthcare is going to be more
expensive because it might not be this guy, it might be
somebody else that didn't even work here.

(38:48):
But we're still ultimately paying for all that.
There needs to be a tremendous, I think, mind shift and how we
approach health. And I, and I, that's why I
really appreciate what you and Max are doing.
And I, I would put in a plug there to get, you know, get
Thrive 25 in your businesses because it's going to save money
down the road in the, in the long run, you know, whether it's

(39:09):
in money, tax dollars, you know,we don't look at that like how
much we paying in Medicare and to support Medicare, we can cut
those expenses a lot by just simply making some behavioral
changes and getting people much more proactive rather than
reactive in their medicine. So, so all companies listening
to this, you ought to be signingup for Thrive 25.

(39:30):
So what is the most exciting or hopeful trend you're seeing
right now in the health optimization space?
I don't know if it's the most. Exciting right now, but I think
it's a bellwether of what's to come.
And I think one of the biggest surprises is how quickly alcohol
consumption has decreased amongst many populations, right?

(39:53):
We're seeing billion dollar brands like Athletic Brewing,
you know, popping up or these non alcoholic mocktails, if you
will, brands that are in Whole Foods and other places.
And it's becoming more mainstream.
I mean, you can go to Target, not just Whole Foods and get
these and you you're seeing and hearing more and more about 20
somethings that aren't drinking the way they were before.
And so I think, you know, peoplewant to feel better and

(40:17):
empowered for, you know, they don't want to be like struggling
tomorrow, right? Like we all went out partying
and then the next day at work, we're just, we're, we're a
shells of ourselves. And I don't think people want to
feel that. They want to feel present.
They want to feel great the nextday.
And they're recognizing that alcohol truly is a toxin in many
ways. And look.
I I have a. Few drinks still here and there.
I'm not judging anyone that does, but I think it's a really

(40:38):
interesting trend that it is possible, just like smoking 2030
years ago can go down with the right messaging and the fact
that people recognize they have the power to take care of their
health. So I look at that as a trend
that says that went from, oh, I don't know if heart disease or
cancers in my future, it might be luck of the draw.
It might be genetics, where now I think that's a signal that

(40:59):
people recognize so much more that how much their behavior can
impact their health more than itever has in the past.
And so I'm excited to see where that goes next and what people
are further willing to do because we all go to the gym,
we've been told not to smoke. Now we're truly not drinking.
You know what, what what comes next as people are willing to
change that behavior. And and I think it just shows

(41:20):
with the right public announcements and the right
companies providing alternativesfor us change as possible.
And you could probably make thatlist pretty long.
You start looking at some of thefood additives and all the other
kind of stuff that we're starting to look at and say, OK,
well, this isn't really the bestthing for me.
Yeah, I mean, I love when you see states like Texas that are
getting rid of these food dyes in school lunches, right?

(41:40):
And, and, and a lot of these other chemicals that shouldn't
be in there. It's, it's sad that they're
already in there, but when you, when certain states start to get
rid of the junk that these food companies already aren't putting
in, you know, the, the cereals or the other products that are
going to Europe or Canada, I think that will start to make a

(42:01):
big change, Right? Like I see that in kids that
have ADD and all these other behavioral issues, like, I mean,
we're really giving them things that we're not supposed to have.
And, and any science that tells you anyone food additive or food
dye chemical isn't a problem, that's fine.
But we know we're just stacking dozens and hundreds of them over

(42:22):
and over in every single meal. And we, we really can't fully
understand what that's doing to our, our mind and body.
So yes, I think the more chemicals we can get out, the
better. It blows me away when I learned
that the plants in the US that are making cereals for
consumption in the US are the same ones making cereals that
are being shipped to Canada thataren't permitted to have all

(42:44):
these dyes and everything else. It's like, why would you?
How is that at all profitable tobe putting this crap in our food
to keep here? But then you can still
manufacture a different product,you know, a different version of
the product to send somewhere else.
Just blows me away. Any easier just to give us
healthy food? I think it's probably a
combination of the lower cost combined with the, the addictive

(43:05):
nature of what those products can bring in.
And you know, these, these theselarge food manufacturers are not
stupid. So there's obviously that they
they see that economic value of what the decisions they're
making. Which is said the economic value
is more important than the health value and the welfare
value that comes from the foods.So for someone who's just
starting on their Thrive journey, what is one small step

(43:27):
they can start to take today? So I think in, and this is where
we're starting to build a better, this isn't the consumer
friendly term, but like a diagnostic kind of a self
questionnaire, self survey, if you will.
And I mentioned these nine elements and it's kind of like
if you think, go through each ofthose so you know, we can list
them out. Happy to share the graphic with
you to put on the the show notesaround.

(43:48):
Like we said, nutrition and mindset and the environment I
live in and the connection with others and having fun and sleep,
all of these things. I think the number one thing is
I don't know who you are. You have 30 trillion cells, you
have 39 trillion bacteria in your body.
And you know, what you do and don't do today already is just
go through those nine elements and say how am I doing in each

(44:09):
of these? And which one, probably not even
2, maybe 2, but which one or twocan I focus on or should I be
focusing on to make my life and health a little bit better right
now? Because then I think it's not
overwhelming and it's a very easy, you know, way in which
they can start to make some changes that will again,
hopefully have a positive flywheel to make other changes

(44:30):
down the road. But that's how that's again, as
we've created this wheel of nineelements, we, we help it
structure our research as we share our newsletter and our
content with with folks. But I wanted to be a way in
which you kind of organize your own thoughts around how am I
doing on that? Right?
Like you might go through a weekwhere you're like, yeah, I eat a
lot of comfort food and that's OK.
But now I should be really be focusing back on my nutrition

(44:52):
or, and, you know, work was really busy.
I was sitting a lot and I skipped a lot of workouts over
the last month. You know, this month I really
want to get back to, to movement.
And so I think it's not about doing too much.
It's about recognizing where youare, what you need to get back
to that optimal energy, feeling your best and just doing those
that one thing. So you basically summarized

(45:14):
everything we're trying to say on this podcast.
So thanks for that. Yeah.
And Speaking of, and you've alluded to probably a little bit
of this over the course of this interview, but what are you
doing personally to age? Well, it's a question we ask of
all our guests, so you can't getaway from it.
Yeah, so I mentioned, you know, I think I'm pretty good on the
exercise. I'm getting better on the sleep.
My thing I'm trying to work on to age well right now is is

(45:38):
stress. So I don't know if I would ever
recommend anyone do a startup with two kids under the age of
seven. It's been a very trying time.
It's long hours and I know I'm sitting and I know I'm holding
tension in my in my shoulders and life isn't quite as easy or
it's not as it's harder to be present with my kids sometimes

(46:00):
with so much going on. So I'm really, really focusing
on on being present and being grateful.
I know that we're making and, and I'm so grateful for my
partner and my wife because I know we're making financial
sacrifices doing a start up. I know we're, I'm constraining
some of the time we have as a family, but I'm trying to be as
present as possible to age well and, and recognize that there's

(46:23):
only so much I can do and I onlyand I'm never going to get this
time back with my kids. And so I some of the really,
really powerful research I came across was we're not stressed
when we're working. We're stressed when we're
ruminating, when we're thinking about work, but we're not.
So you might be at your kids baseball game thinking about
work, but you know, you can't doanything about it.
Your computer's not there, you're at the game, but we're

(46:45):
allowing that to eat away at us.And if we can quiet that, you
know, you know, inner voice, that inner critic in our mind
and stop ruminating and be saying, I've made the decision
for better, worse to be with my kids right now or I've made the
decision to work right now. Go do that really, really well.
And then wherever you are, be aspresent as possible.
That's what I'm working on rightnow because I think that stress

(47:06):
reduction and just enjoying, like you said, the connection we
have or the purpose I have at work, whatever it is I'm in, I
want to be all in at that moment.
And I think that's going to helpmy health in the long run.
That's awesome advice. And so, where can the listeners
learn more about Thrive 25 and get involved in your community?
Yeah, so if you just go to thrive25.com, you're going to

(47:28):
see a big overview of the, the vision of where we want to be
part of your life as a personal longevity advisor.
If you sign up, you know, you can just be a part of our
newsletter, which comes out one to two times a week.
Again, we've written 450 those those are all published online.
I can share the archive for people.
And then we have a membership to, again, your personal and

(47:51):
deputy advisor. And it starts with just even
being your health hub. So you know, Jeff, we talked
about this traditional health healthcare system we have and
all these other cash based services or technologies could
be anything from your aura ring to maybe I went to a functional
medicine doctor for my gut or I go to a chiropractor.
We're all over the place. And if you think about the
mental hoops that we have to jump through, it'd be like,

(48:13):
where's my insurance information?
When your doctor asked you, whenwas the last time you had this
or what was this medication you took?
It's in desk drawers, it's in our portals.
It's in emails. So we're kind of being your
practical health hub to put all that together, including your
lab results and then using that information that's not doing
anything for you and turning it into insights for you to take
the right action. And so it's a very low cost app

(48:35):
that we just help you organize your mind, organize your health.
And that's step one. And then you can start to, like
we said, get the optimal versus normal lab results.
You can start to schedule your preventative care appointments.
You can take some of those dailyquick wins, but it's really,
it's really up to you. Again, we want to meet people
where they are, not force them into, you know, a process that
doesn't work for them. But I think the first thing

(48:57):
we've heard from just about everyone is they're overwhelmed
that your health data, either you don't know where it is or
it's all over the place. And that kind of just creates,
again, more stress. We want to help you get that
organized and then let us createsome insights.
And so we can always give you personalized recommendations.
And like you said, we'll never tell you to go for a walk if you
live in a environment that's notsafe for you to go for a walk
on. We're going to really make that

(49:18):
very specific of how we can helpyou and what you need in the
moment. So is there anything we missed
in today's conversation? I think we covered a lot and not
too much that I can think of. You even hit on the food
additives and some of the chemicals in our in our
environment. I think we, we talked about the
things that we care about. I would just say again, you said
at the beginning, no one in the Blue zones or no centenarian or

(49:41):
whatever your goal is, they're, they're not thinking about
optimizing their health every moment of the day.
I think it's, you know, our definition of thriving isn't to
be thinking about your health all the time.
It's to live life such that yourhealth doesn't get in the way,
right. So whatever it is you want to be
able to do, there's ways in which you can probably take
action so that your health can allow you to do that.
If you want to go hiking Yosemite in your 60s, what does

(50:04):
that mean? If you want to be still be
surfing in your 70s, what does that mean?
If you want to be carrying your grandkids, what does that mean?
So I would just focus on. What is your?
Why? What is thriving mean to you?
And then that and then you back into what do I have to do to
make that happen so I can live my best life without
compromising? I had a conversation with a
woman at our church who's 100, and I was asking, you know how,

(50:26):
you know, what are you doing to live to 100?
And she immediately started talking about my woman.
My dad lived to be 106, and she told me that when he was 87, he
wrote his memoir, and he had to write a second volume to his
memoir because he did so much. After 87, they just continue
like he was 93. He went to the North Pole and it

(50:47):
was like the guy's thriving. He's living that great life and
I think, you know, the more we can think about what we can do
to just live the most purposeful, the most productive,
you know, the most vital life that we can live and thrive, the
more we're going to be aging well.
So I appreciate what you and your partner Max are doing.
I, I hope the best success for you guys is the business grows

(51:10):
and we will share links in the description notes to you guys so
they can get that information. And we'll have to have you back
on to kind of get an update of how it's going and talk more
about some of these topics. But kind of until then, just
keep doing what you're doing andkeep aging well.
Thanks you too, Jeff. I appreciate you getting this
message out too and building an audience with the Aging Well

(51:31):
podcast. Appreciate you inviting me on.
You're welcome. Thank you for listening.
I hope you benefited from today's podcast and until next
time, keep aging well.

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What Is “Medicine 3.0”? A New Way to Think About Health Span | Ep. 266

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}What Is “Medicine 3.0”? A New Way to Think About Health Span | Ep. 266