Today on the podcast, I am joined by Megrette Fletcher, a registered dietitian who has worked as a diabetes care and education specialist for the past 30 years.
Megrette’s many accomplishments include authoring many books about discovering mindful eating and is the co-founder of the Center for Mindful Eating.
In this episode, we will discuss:
- The false narrative of diet culture and how it wants to keep you in the binary (good/bad, right/wrong, black/white, etc.).
- The research around diabetes that she has and is still currently working on.
- Sort our feelings into three categories rather than staying in the binary.
Megrette also shared a mindset shift to lessen the impact of diet culture.
Mindset shift:
- Listen to people with lived experiences and read books from those people to understand their experiences better.
- Find a sense of belonging to shift away from the binary.
Resources:
- Eat What You Love, Love What You Eat with Diabetes: A Mindful Eating Program for Thriving with Prediabetes or Diabetes- Michelle May MD, Megrette Fletcher MEd RD CDE
- Together: The Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World- Vivek H Murthy M.D.
- AMA- Standards of Medical Care in Diabetes
- Megrette Fletcher’s Newsletter
- Megrette Fletcher’s Substack- Inclusive Diabetes Care
- The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together- Heather McGhee
- Hunger: A Memoir of (My) Body- Roxane Gay
- Weightless: Making Space for My Resilient Body and Soul- Evette Dionne
- https://www.inclusivediabetescare.com/
- Discover Mindful Eating Second Edition- Megrette Fletcher
- https://www.thecenterformindfuleating.org/
- https://belonging.berkeley.edu/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
So today I'm very excited tohave Megret Fletcher with us,
and why don't you just go aheadand jump in and tell us all
about yourself so?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm a registered dietitian, diabetes care and
education specialist.
I've been in the diabetes spacenow just about 30 years.
I've been a dietitian a littlebit longer than that and back in
I wrote my first anti-diet bookback in 1994.
So really a lot.
I've been in the space ofnon-dieting, which we now call
(00:32):
weight inclusive care, for a bitand, yeah, I've written some
more books since then andhopefully we'll get a chance to
talk about the non-profit, theCenter for Mind Fleeting that I
help co-found.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Absolutely Well.
What is it that made you reallyinterested, that you wanted to
focus your career on diabetes?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I started off as an eating disorder dietitian in a
lock psychiatric unit and when Istarted my career we had about
three months to work with ourclients, and when the DRGs came
about, the length of stay wasreduced to about three days and
I found myself basicallystarting IV nutrition or tube
(01:13):
feedings for clients, and itreally wasn't where I was.
It just really didn't have anyinterest to me.
So I was much more interestedin relationship-based counseling
and so I said well, twodiabetes there, it's a chronic
illness.
I'll hang out with them for awhile and I've loved it and
never look back.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Wow, yeah, 30 years is quite a commitment, a bit,
yeah.
So what is it about dietculture that's making your eyes
roll the hardest right now?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
You know, this kind of question I thought and I
really have been kind of chewingon it a little bit more.
When I think about eye rolling,I think about kind of my
present day self versus youngerme, and so I would really say
the thing is that I see thechanges, the binary.
I am very aware of the binary,how diet culture reinforces,
(02:03):
energizes this good-badnarrative.
I'm very aware of how.
It is so black and white, it'sso right or wrong, it's so
binary and younger me loved thebinary.
Younger me was like, oh, I'mright, but present day me is
like I don't know about that.
(02:23):
So the eye rolling is reallylooking at how my own journey
and really understanding howmuch more comfortable I am kind
of leaning into.
Maybe that isn't exactly howlife works, maybe that's just
how I want life to work.
And I think that that brings usto that idea of magical
thinking and wishful thinking,and to me that's all really what
(02:46):
diet culture is.
Is this belief that once I YX,then my life will be great, and
once I eat Y then my life willbe great, and if I only do Z,
then my life will be great.
And again, it's this binarythat is faulty.
It is a false narrative and formyself I just I really can see
(03:10):
how appealing that is.
I want to help, so I love thefalse narrative.
I love the idea that there's aright way to do things.
It excites me because I couldbe right.
So now we're kind of gettinginto ego, but that desire to
help isn't a bad thing.
We just really have torecognize, I think, for
(03:32):
ourselves, that we are lookingat people.
We are looking at health as afixed thing, and health is
dynamic, it's not fixed.
And people are dynamic andthey're not things, so they
can't be fixed.
So we have so many falsenarratives around diet culture.
(03:52):
They're just so familiar, theyare the air we breathe, at the
water we swim in so we don'tactually think to question them.
And because they're so egoreinforcing I spend a lot of
time becoming a dietitian.
I spend a lot more timebecoming a diabetes educator.
I really want to be right.
(04:13):
That's very ego reinforcing, soit kind of self feeding.
And that leads us to the largerissue, which is these
narratives these black and white, these binary narratives are
just part of a largerconversation around depression.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So I certainly love that concept because I think
that is what makes me so bananas, and especially in coaching or
talking to someone, becauseyou're trying to almost
introduce gray and it's like inin brains, because I remember
when it was introduced to me andmy brain is like Beep boop,
boop boop, like does not compute, I was like I don't even know
(04:52):
what you're talking about and Ithink that certainly is like
it's so ingrained.
And then I feel like, becauseI've been in Health and Wellness
for about 30 years as well,like because of especially
scalable solutions, so largeweight loss programs are
something that we've got to makerules for this program to be
(05:15):
able to sell it.
So that has really, I feel like, highlighted the binary
concepts as well, because Ican't sell you something that
says, Well, it depends, Likewhere's the solution there?
Because then I'm not giving youthe answer.
So I think that kind ofcertainly the diet companies
(05:37):
have pushed that like where elsedo you feel like that messaging
is coming from?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, stepping back and just kind of feeding off
your example a little bit more,which is it's the false view.
We really have to see the falseview and so for many of us who
are kind of swimming in thiswater, it's hard for us to get
out of it and to take that, youknow, 5000 foot view.
But if we turn around and wesay that the false view is being
(06:04):
fat is unhealthy, that's thefalse view.
So being fat is unhealthy is aweight normative view.
And I clarifying these termsbecause I want people who are
listening, who are motivated tostart maybe Google searching
these things and start turningaround saying, well, what is the
research and where do I look itup?
So we want to give peoplecorrect terminology.
(06:25):
So weight normative is thisbelief that being that is wrong,
it's unhealthy, and so a weightinclusive approach is turning
around saying, well, whathappens if that lens or that
view is not correct?
And what would, how would westart looking at it differently?
And it's a new field kind ofcoming in, though I feel like
I've been in it for a long timeand I'm sure you feel the same
(06:46):
way.
We're starting to recognize,wow, health is really, really
complex and you know our surgeongeneral, the vet Murphy.
He talks about loneliness andhe is coming from a weight
normative view and if you canget past the first maybe two
chapters of his book, he'sreally talking about how
loneliness is more detrimentalto our health than our weight.
(07:07):
It's more detrimental to ourhealth than smoking 15
cigarettes a day that's a half apack.
So I really want to be veryclear we have over identified
the problems of weight and whenwe talk about over
identification and hopefully wecan unpack that a little bit
more but Kristen Network on selfcompassion really talks about
(07:30):
when we're not compassionate toourselves we over identify.
We believe that this onemistake is the reason why
everything's falling apart.
We believe that weight is thereason our health is all falling
apart and yet the research isnot supporting that.
And using diabetes as anexample, the American Diabetes
Association released a statementsaying that 50 to 60% what you
(07:54):
to think about this 50 to 60% ofall outcomes of diabetes are
related to the socialdeterminants of health.
Taking a step back and lookingat that binary.
Taking a step back and lookingat that binary, all of a sudden
we realize, wow, this is areally complicated, very tangled
up problem with lots of factorsand in research we call those,
(08:18):
you know, confounding variables.
But there's so many of them,it's not simple.
The black and white is simple.
I can get my head around thatand that's why I like it,
because I sound smart, and soit's so reinforcing to turn
around saying no, no, the weightnormative approach has to be
correct.
Because I can understand it andso I can sell it.
(08:41):
And I think you reallyidentified one of the factors
that are contributing to thisfalse narrative, which is health
a capitalistic product.
And that's a question.
And many countries have said no, our country has said yes.
So you know these are largerconversations, that I don't want
to appear like an economist,but I am very curious about what
(09:04):
other countries do, becausediabetes is in every part of the
world.
There is not a country, anation, a continent that is not
touched by diabetes.
Which programs and systems aredoing better or having fewer
outcomes?
What are we seeing?
And so that's where I reallylike looking at diabetes,
because I think it's looking atit from a global perspective,
(09:27):
where some of these co-foundingvariables, you know, we can
start teasing them out and starttrying to understand them a
little bit more.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
That's really fascinating because I haven't
really thought about that oflooking at you know, because
obviously other countries haveit vastly different healthcare
system than we do.
Good for them, but fascinatingto think about what it would be
like to have something chronicdisease like diabetes in an
environment like that where youjust go pick up your meds or you
(09:54):
know like novel ideas like thatthere's some research that I
get and participating in andMargaret Berman is the lead
researcher there and we'relooking at the moderators and
mediators that are impactingdiabetes prevention.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
That's a that's a fancy term and I want to break
it down a little bit more if Ican.
But basically, when we talkabout research, we're trying to
understand what is it that makesdiabetes prevention work?
So we've heard again thatweight normative view oh, it's
weight loss.
So the question is well, can wetest for them?
Can we turn around and say wasit really weight loss or is it
(10:34):
the fact that you're eatingdifferent.
Was it really weight loss?
Or is it the fact that you'rein a group and you have social
connection?
Was it really weight loss?
Or is the fact that you'reexercising more?
Was it really weight loss?
Is it the fact that you have,you know, like healthcare and
you're accessing healthcare?
Really, what was it?
And so we ask and we look atresearch to turn around, say,
did we differentiate?
What actually caused that?
And we look for, we test forthese mediators and, long story
(10:58):
short, we looked at over 7000research articles up until 2019
and what we found was less than1% and it actually wound up
being about 100-ish articles.
So from 7000 to about 100,120-ish articles actually looked
at that.
So I want you to think aboutall the research that we see in
(11:20):
diabetes and we went from 7000to 100 and of those 100,
basically we're looking at threestudies.
So when we look at all theresearch, is it really a lot of
research when we justregurgitate the same opinions In
diabetes care?
I'm really interested to turnaround and say what really was
the cause?
And can you really say it wasthe change in your weight?
(11:44):
Because when we look at it,over time the weight goes up,
but we still see the benefits ofphysical activity.
People's weight goes back up,but we still see the benefits of
improved A1c.
So what's going on there?
And that curiosity?
I think we could get morecurious.
To me, that would be awesome,because it allows us to say I
(12:07):
don't know.
And if I don't know, that's agood thing, it's okay that I
don't know, but where could Ilearn and what questions could I
ask?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, it feels like when you say curiosity, it feels
completely opposed to thebinary.
If you're buying into thebinary, you're like I don't even
need to think about it.
There it is.
But I think the effort andenergy to really ask a deeper
question like is definitely astep that I can see and you know
, and for myself certainlyearlier in my career, like I
(12:40):
loved face value this is a realokay good.
Thank you, I jotted it down,it's tattooed on my arm and that
we're done, you know.
Moving on, think about otherthings.
So who do you feel likebenefits the most from the
binary?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, I mean, my ego does for sure.
So my ego, everyone's ego does.
It allows us to say, with this,just hubris, that's almost
comical, I know this will work,and so that that's really very
problematic.
So I would definitely say thatwhen we talk about the binary,
(13:18):
it's just it's our ego and thatcreates so many different
problems.
But I think ultimately thebinary it is not actually
allowing us to do two things,which so I write a newsletter as
well, and in the newsletter Ilike to talk about there's some
themes that I talk a lot about,but one is sorting, and I talk a
(13:39):
lot about sorting, particularlyin diabetes, because I think
everyone's overwhelmed.
And so when you're overwhelmed,like what can you do when
you're overwhelmed?
Well, you, you sort.
But if we sort in two piles,we're going to get, you know,
good or bad, right or wrong.
So we're back in the binaries.
We have to understand how tosort into three piles and
normalizing, not no.
So you know like, oh, this ishelping me, probably treading
(14:01):
water, this is hurting me, likejust putting that middle group,
you can't be in the binaryanymore.
So if we sort into three groups, that's awesome, like that's
fantastic.
Now sorting also has this levelof discernment, and discernment
is different than sorting, and Ifeel like I'm a little bit like
an English nerd right now.
(14:22):
But but I want to just clarifybecause I, when I share it with
my clients, they go, oh, and itfeels like a like oh, my world
got clearer.
So when we sort, we're justtrying to put them in categories
, and when we discern, we'retrying to figure out what's good
, better, best, and they're notthe same thing.
I can put things in categoriesall I want, but it's not really
(14:44):
helping me discern what's good,better, best.
Now, if I'm in discernment, I'mnot binary.
I'm trying to turn around, saywhat's good, better, best for me
, what's good, better, best foryou, that's discernment, and so
there's a distinction there thatI just.
I really appreciate when wehave it, because for so many
people they're just like no, Ijust have to be good and I go.
(15:07):
I think your inner teenager isgoing to come out with that wish
.
So I don't know about you.
It wasn't my best time, so thatI just feel like a child.
When someone says to me, oh,you need to be good and I'm not
a child, I have a lot ofambivalence to that request,
that comment.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, absolutely, for I have an innately rebellious
spirit, and so it does make mewant to roll up my sleeves.
Well, what do you think good is?
Because here's what I'm goingto tell.
What do you feel like are thekind of major harms, and maybe
some minor harms from the binary?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I really think that the probably the major harm that
we can talk about is the cyclethat this is creating.
So the binary creates a cycle,it creates a view and you can't
get out of it.
So I would say that that's veryharmful and when we think about
our current society, which isit's a capitalistic society and
(16:09):
it's feeding this binary view,it's almost like we have to.
We have to see it as a falseview and that's hard for people.
So it's a major harm becausewe've built so many systems in
place that make it seem likeit's familiar and familiar.
Is this funny experience thatwe don't notice something's
(16:32):
wrong?
I mean, it's so familiar, Ican't be wrong.
I've done this 100 times.
How bad could it be?
But yet familiar is like thatsiren song.
So if we go back to Odysseusand that story of him being
strapped to the mast where thesirens are singing and people
who listen to it drive theirship onto the, onto the rocks,
(16:55):
you know, and Odysseus strapshimself to the mast where he can
listen to the siren song, wehave to recognize that this,
this binary, is.
It's familiar, it is like asiren song, but it's not leading
us to good, better, best, it'snot actually helping us.
It's actually driving us intothe rocks, which then fuels this
(17:17):
cycle of oh well, that was badand this would be better, like
let's do this because that wasbad and it's this binary.
But to understand that it's acycle and it's hard for people
to see that cycle and because ittakes effort, because it's
challenging, a lot of people arelike I don't really want to do
(17:39):
it and I just, you know, there'sa lot of harm there.
And there's an author, heatherMcGee.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith her work, but she wrote
the book the Sum of Us and Ibelieve she's a lawyer, but she
might be a PhD person.
I'm not sure of her manyaccolades and talents and
accomplishments, but she wrotethis book called the Sum of Us,
(18:02):
which really highlights thisidea of a zero sum game.
I don't know if you rememberthat one way back in, but for
myself it was a little review.
It was like, oh, I know whatthat means.
And then I read her book and Iwent oh, I know what that means
better, I understand what thatmeans at a very different level,
which was good.
But basically a zero sum gamemeans we do things thinking it
(18:25):
would help us but it actuallyhurts us.
And she's talking about how allof our efforts and not all of
them, but you know a lot ofmajor efforts in our society are
the zero sum game that we'retrying to do, something that
would help us but it winds uphurting us.
And really the fuel what'sfueling it is what I like to
(18:47):
call the oppression handbook.
And the oppression handbook isdoesn't matter if it's driven
because of fat phobia or racismor ableism, healthism, if we're
afraid of, you know, gender orsex.
It doesn't matter why we'retrying to oppress someone we
engage in and we create thesesystems that we think, oh,
(19:08):
that's going to make it better,but it winds up just making it
worse and it makes it worse foreverybody.
And she really writes a verycompelling, detailed book that I
would highly recommend toreally help us take that step
back and see the major harm,which is this binary view.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That's so interesting , and we always put all of the
materials in the show notes.
So we'll link all the resourcesyou've talked about so far and
I think that is so interestingbecause I do feel like we get on
our little hamster wheels andwe're doing all the things and
thinking that we're doingsomething.
(19:46):
But I think it's even moreinteresting that you're linking.
It's not that you're thinkingthat you're doing something,
you're actually hurting yourselfin the meantime.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And that's hard.
It's hard for me to own that asa healthcare provider.
My self identity is that of youknow, caring and concern.
I mean my kids joke with mebecause you know they're all
like I'm in Slytherin, I'm in,you know, gryffindor, you know,
and they talk about the HarryPotter houses and they look at
me and they go you areHufflepuff and like, the sorting
(20:16):
had no problem sorting.
I was only Hufflepuff.
I will only be in Hufflepuff.
That's just what I do.
I'm Hufflepuff all the way andand they just crack up because
they're saying the sorting hadstruggled with me, because
they're like, and it neverstruggled with you.
So my identity is so wrapped upin being a helper.
(20:38):
It can make me very blind to myprivilege.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
It can make me very blind to how I'm contributing to
, like you said, these largerharms which you know is very
problematic, yeah, and I thinkanybody that works in this field
has certainly looked back andshook their head that, oh my
gosh, I can't believe that Ithought this or taught this or
(21:01):
encouraged this.
And I have talked about theapology tour for making you
count your almonds and all ofthese things that I really
believed were helpful, and then,really like, once you step back
, it's like, oh my gosh, I madeyou just as obsessed as I am
Made you putting as much focuson these things when one.
(21:22):
It's not helpful and it isharmful.
I think that every practitionerand hopefully every
practitioner does, come to aplace where they see that.
I definitely see a lot ofpeople that feel, seem very
confident in what they are doing, and I'm always I always say
like I wish I had the confidenceof a man standing in the
(21:43):
grocery store talking aboutchemicals in the food.
Just sure that harming all ofus.
Because I'm like, is it, youknow?
But there are a lot of followup questions that they're like
here it is nailed, it done, andthat gets back to that
discernment.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So we sort chemicals in the food are bad, non
chemicals in the food are good.
We're back to that binary.
If we turn around, we say, well, it's good for me to eat, it's
better for me to eat foods thatare less chemicals, but it's
best for me to eat foods that Ican afford.
You know, you can turn aroundand you can start looking at.
We're trying to discern what'sthe right choice for me and I
(22:23):
work with people that theyreally are struggling.
Food prices are very high andI've spent a lot of time really
going through and going tostores and really price checking
and saying, hey, frozen foodsare cheapest here.
You know, paper goods arecheapest here.
This is where you can buy dogand cat food.
These are where you can getcleaning supplies.
(22:45):
It does make some assumptionsthat my clients have cars to get
around, so I have to clarifythat because if they don't have
transportation, then you know westart looking at ordering
online and we start looking atplaces where we can buy items on
a major bus route and the statewhere I live in we don't have a
public transportation outsideof buses.
(23:06):
So just really becoming familiar, like what are the bus routes
and how would someone movethrough these stores and how
would they actually transportthe food that they get?
So it's really a lot oflogistics, meaning you can't buy
your frozen foods and then gobuy your paper goods.
So there's a lot of logisticsthere and I think we forget that
when we say things like oh,chemicals and food are bad.
(23:28):
We've made so many assumptionsthat everybody's food experience
is just like mine.
Everybody's food choices andtheir needs and their reasons
why they choose foods are thesame as mine.
And that goes back to thathubris again of turning around
saying what are the odds?
That's true, just give me oddsto bet on.
I really think that the oddswould be like one in a million,
(23:51):
that that's true.
One in a thousand, that that'strue because we have so many
different needs.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I love how holistic your approach is and I think
really anybody that's workedone-on-one you start to realize.
And until I worked one-on-onein health coaching and got out
of fitness because everybodythat was there for fitness had a
certain amount of money,discretionary funds, that they
could spend.
So these things weren't issuestransportation, affordability of
(24:20):
food, and I think when Istarted working in environments
where that was present, that wasschool for me and I was very
lucky that people I worked withwere patient.
And because I did a lot of youknow what, I'm going to look all
this up and we'll talk about itwhen I see you again in two
weeks to come back with justwhat you're talking, pricing and
(24:41):
what is reasonable and to leavebehind the fresh is best.
Fresh is not best for everyone.
It might be preferred by many.
But and even though I talkabout you know my sons are
college age and we've had a lotof fresh vegetables but they
just struggle to make it workand it doesn't make sense for
them because they'll forget itor just different how they are
(25:04):
in the kitchen.
So that money down the draindoes nobody any good.
But what if just had somefrozen broccoli and then you can
just get a little out as youneed it, it's like works
perfectly fine.
So tell me I'm alwaysinterested in people are trying
to change their behaviors.
You know the mindset shifts andthe skill set shifts.
What do you believe, like ourtwo things that people could do
(25:26):
to kind of change their mindsetsand then two for some skill
sets.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Hmm, well, I think for myself, just listening to
people with lived experience isreally helpful.
So the individuals that I'mvery interested in are fat
individuals with diabetes, soI'm very interested in listening
to their experience.
Or, you know, fat individualsthat are managing health in a
higher weight body.
So I'm really interested inkind of what that's like.
(25:55):
And you know, I got a lot outof reading Roxanne Gay's book
hunger.
I got a lot out of reading thatDiane's book weightless.
You know, I got a lot out oflistening to and learning about
and hearing from you know peoplewho I think I know.
But you know, when you givethem the microphone you're like,
(26:16):
oh yeah, I totally get whereyou're coming from.
And I think, again, going backto Dr Murthy's book around
loneliness, you know it wasinteresting how much, how
connected I felt.
I think that that's really themind shift, is that when we can
experience that sense ofbelonging, we move out of the
binary.
It's not right or wrong, goodor bad, it's us, it's all of us.
(26:39):
That is really what allows usto have that shift to belonging.
And the inclusive diabetes carewhich is the company that I own
we're a professional educationcompany.
You know.
It's founded under the pyramid,this inclusion pyramid that I
created, and at the bottom ofthat pyramid is this idea of
belonging and we need to belong.
(27:01):
And people with diabetes needto feel like they belong.
You know, fat people need tofeel like they belong, queer
people need to feel like theybelong, people with just
everybody.
We just all need to feel likewe belong.
And what's interesting, youknow, I mentioned the research
and Dr Lauren Beach is one ofthe researchers I'm working with
and her research, which is fromthe LGBTQIA community, talks
(27:24):
about pride and how pride isantidote to shame.
And when we think about prideit's because we belong.
We belong.
So we need that sense ofbelonging.
But if it isn't easy to belong,we're not going to stay with it
.
And if we belong and it feelseasy but I don't feel seen and
(27:45):
heard, then I'm not going to bethere.
And we're hearing howoppression would.
It mutes those who are having ahigher or a bigger load to
carry.
So listening to people withlived experience really allows
them to be seen and heard.
And if we feel like we belongand it's not too hard and we're
(28:06):
feeling seen and heard, but thenwe're judged, we're never going
to get to wholesome self care.
So when we think about kind ofskills and mindset, part of this
is really hitting home thisidea that we need to look at
what the basic needs ofinclusion are.
And for my community people withdiabetes, my community people
(28:28):
with type two diabetes, mycommunity fat people with type
two diabetes, my community queerpeople, people with
disabilities, people witheconomic strain, people who all
of all of us, we all belong.
I'm here, I'm standing insolidarity with people with
diabetes because we belong.
(28:48):
I'm touched by diabetes.
I'm touched 100 different waysin my personal life by diabetes
and I want those people, I wantthose experiences.
When I develop diabetes I'mdefinitely from a family with
diabetes I want to know that Ibelong.
And so, practicing this idea ofcoming alongside, not trying to
(29:11):
get into that, oh, that's rightor that's wrong, but how can I
come alongside?
That's really what allows us tobelong.
And if, as we turn around, wesay, well, you can belong if you
do X, y and Z, count thealmonds, walk a 5k, wear a
tracker, it's really notbelonging.
That's just another task.
Conditional, yes, veryconditional.
(29:31):
Or you can belong as long asyou're losing weight, very, you
know.
You can belong as long asyou're taking your meds, you can
belong as long as you're trying.
We can just see like that's notbelonging.
That's just not belonging.
So really taking a step back andreally turn around saying, am I
really listening to what it'slike to struggle and do I have
(29:55):
the emotional capacity to listento struggle?
And I think that that's one ofthe things that a lot of times
we don't want to listen to firstperson narrative because it
hurts us.
It reminds us of the humancondition, which is painful and
it's hard to witness suffering.
It's very hard.
So we got to get a reps and wegot to practice and a resource
(30:18):
just to shout out aroundbelonging is the Othering and
Belonging Institute out ofBerkeley, california.
So I really have benefitedtremendously from that
organization and I try topromote it whenever I can.
I think John Powell is.
He's the director and I thinkhe's brilliant, but he is
surrounded by other brilliantpeople so I don't want to single
(30:39):
him out.
He would not want to be singledout, but just to recognize that
that's a wonderful resource forhealthcare professionals but
also for any regular laylistener who says I'm not in
healthcare but I really wantthis sense of belonging.
You know, if I fact Murphy'sbook first two chapters have
some weight centric verbiage.
But the Othering and BelongingInstitute, both are really
(31:01):
excellent ways for us to leaninto belonging.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
That's so fascinating and it like because when you're
talking about belonging, itfeels warm.
Just listening to talk about itlike feels so nice.
And I think about, especiallylike working in corporate
wellness.
Many times it's just a land ofOthering.
It is.
This is a problem, your problem, what are you going to do about
(31:28):
your problem?
And the belonging is, if you'remeeting the correct metrics,
whatever those may be, thenwelcome.
And I used to see that a lotwhen I was doing health coaching
full time.
They love to have in personevents and I always said and
this is kind of at the beginningof webinars 2011, I think 12.
(31:53):
And I was like we are missing alot of people because a lot of
people don't want to come herebecause it's full of people
running 10ks, it's full of thinpeople.
Besides, the fact you've gotfolding chairs like this
environment doesn't create anybelonging for anybody, except
for who is in this room.
And I think I'm excited tocheck out that resource you
(32:15):
shared, because I think thateverybody needs more warm
fuzzies and to feel like oh look, I mean I just love that
concept.
Well, what messaging do youthink is helpful for the younger
generations to hear now?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, again, I think that this idea that we belong I
think is really important.
You know, my daughters areadults and I think they really
get the weight inclusivemessaging.
But again, I think that thesense of how do we belong, how
can we connect there is a lot ofdisconnection and so just
(32:54):
putting down, creating space forus to connect, and one of the
things that I think that a lotof younger people are wanting to
hear is I do belong and how canI create those spaces where
belonging can occur?
And again, I look at theyounger generation and, because
(33:14):
we've been doing this for awhile, I think they get it much
faster than we do.
I think they get inclusion muchfaster.
So I'm not 100% sure they needsomething I think maybe we could
learn from, so maybe we couldflop it around.
What can we learn from theyounger generation?
And I would say that that'sprobably just connecting with
them and really recognizing thatthe information can flow both
(33:39):
ways and I have really benefitedfrom my kids pushing back and
saying, yeah, mom, your view oftopic, yeah, a little outdated,
and I'm like oh, oh casp, andthen of course you know, I read
about it and I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you're right, it was
(34:00):
updated.
Thanks, I'll change the heads up.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, as the mother of two, gen Zers, I love I look at
their friendships and what theyare unbothered by and that I
see, then societies, differentcorners, dark corners of society
are falling all over themselvesto vilify different things.
And I just love that.
(34:23):
My kids, they mind their ownbusiness so much more.
They just, you know, if I everask them questions about
different things, they're like Idon't know, like it's not my
business, I've never asked them.
Or, you know, like it's really.
It is so just fresh to seetheir takes and I absolutely
have the same experiences whereI'll say something and they're
(34:44):
like that's not it.
Yeah, I wouldn't say it likethat.
I'm like oh, okay, okay, howwould you say it?
I am ready to say it that way.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
We have a family member that'stransitioning their gender and
my kids are just like, yeah, andI'm like, oh okay, you know,
I've taken two classes, I justneed to learn how can I support
my family member?
And they're just like to themit's fine and oh okay, yeah,
(35:18):
just again, it's.
I think the the information wethink about.
There's a lot of informationthat younger generations can
help us with.
So amen to the blessings.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Absolutely Well.
Are there any questions thatyou wish I had asked, Hmm?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I think we covered a lot, so probably not any burning
questions that I have.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Maybe there's some that that you'll think of later.
Maybe that's what I do, yeahfor sure 3 am is my best
thinking time to come up withthings of like oh that's, that's
what it all clicks for you, solet's run through our closing
questions.
So if you didn't have thiscareer, what do you think you
(36:05):
would want to do?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Well, I didn't have this career in the beginning.
So I wanted to be aphysiological neuropsychologist,
which means that you look atthe brain and emotional changes
after brain injury.
And I was in a lovely trackprogram and two of us were going
to go on to be invited to thePhD program.
I, unfortunately, was numberseven out of eight.
(36:28):
So my major professor saidwhat's plan B?
So then I became a dietitianand my major professor was like
good choice.
So I feel like I tried adifferent.
You know, I was very hopefulbut didn't work out.
And I think younger me looksback and says I think anything
mechanical, I'm very interestedin engineering.
(36:49):
So you know, if I wasn't, if Ididn't have the ability to be an
engineer, like a civil engineeris kind of where I would go.
You know, I think maybe amechanic or something that's
working in the engineering field, because I'm just fascinated by
big things.
You know, working forCaterpillar would just be like a
dream come true.
You know, driving a giantexcavator.
(37:11):
We, we had some wood logged andthey let me drive up in the
skitter and I asked them howmuch the skitter cost and they
told me.
I said I don't think I shouldbe driving that If I break it I
can't fix it, and they're likeit's a skitter, you can't break
it.
I'm like, oh, trust me, I don'tknow about that.
So, but I do love machinery andbig equipment, big stuff.
(37:34):
I just I find the scale just sofascinating that people can
invent this stuff and it'senormous.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's so interesting I have yet to ask anybody that
question that I wasn't like.
I didn't see that comingSkitter driver, that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a friend, friend of the families.
He said well, you know youcould be a woodsman.
I said, yeah, he goes if youlike dealing with broken diesel
lines in freezing weather, and Iwent no, not so much.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
What about inside jobs?
So yeah, that's just a clearchoice.
Fascinating, interesting.
What is your proudestaccomplishment?
Well, I think we talked aboutkids.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
So, aside with that, because I feel like that's a
pretty normal thing to talkabout, I really do am proud of
my work in the mindful eatingspace.
So in 2005, I wrote my firstbook Discover Mindful Eating in
that genre.
And then in 2006, I co-foundedthe Center for Mindful Eating.
(38:43):
And the Center for MindfulEating continues today.
It's an internationalorganization and I really am
very proud of how they arereally helping people understand
how to bring the present momentto food and eating.
So how can we eat and taste andenjoy that experience?
How can we do that?
And what are the things thatget in the way of us being in
(39:05):
the present moment when we'reeating?
And most of the time it's ourthoughts, but again, it's a
practice, and it's a practicebased in meta or compassion.
And so again we're bringingback that idea of
self-compassion.
And you know the joke aboutself-compassion if it doesn't
work, consider increasing thedose, so just more.
If you're finding like, well,you know, I tried compassion
(39:26):
once and it didn't work, justkeep up in the dose until you
get to that level whereself-compassion really works.
And I feel like right now, inour current society, where we're
having a lot of voices.
There's a lot of discussionscoming up.
We really, we really do needsome compassion and I think
(39:46):
mindfulness is a great way to doit.
I did think about something thatdoes me, now that we've talked
so, a little pet peeve that Ihave is when people say, when
you're trying to explainsomething that's difficult or
almost ineffable, they go, yeah,that doesn't make sense.
And I go, yeah, this idea, thisbelief that every single
(40:08):
utterance out of my mouth isperfectly crafted, coherent
narrative.
I have a pet peeve about that.
I feel like that's anunreasonable expectation.
Yeah, I'd like to quote MarkTwain.
I would have wrote less, but Iran out of time.
You just have to recognize thiswhole idea of we are all
creating a coherent narrativeand it does take time and we
(40:29):
practice.
You know, just talking with youis helping me say, oh, you know,
where was I clear, where couldI be clearer?
We're practicing, we're tryingto understand what sticks and
what doesn't, and this there's abelief.
You know, there's a verydismissive quality right now in
our society that says, oh,heather, didn't make sense, I
don't have to listen to her.
Oh, figure, didn't make sense,I don't have to listen to her.
(40:50):
It's very dismissive and it'slike no, no, you can participate
, you can get curious.
You could say, oh, how would Isay that better?
What information would I wantadded?
Or what research?
You know where is that comingfrom.
But again that curiosity comesback, instead of expecting it to
be just presented to us in abig, you know neatly packaged,
(41:10):
bright bow, so I don't have todo any kind of cognitive lifting
.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
That actually is a peeve.
I have a peeve there I get thatand I see it so often and I
think that that's like when I gospeak like, I can sometimes see
people like turn it off.
They're like nope, didn't likethat.
I was like wait, I've got 40more minutes, come on, this gets
better.
They're like nope, don't wantto hear it, don't want to take
(41:35):
it in.
So what is your spiciestopinion that people disagree
with?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So for myself.
I just want to give a littlecontext and a little background.
So we know from the HumanG-Mone project that race does
not exist.
So race is a construct, it'snot a biological fact.
So the spice and I would loveto get traction and movement on
this is when we talk aboutidentifying risk factors for
(42:00):
diabetes that we remove thatrace element from that
questionnaire.
So when the American DiabetesAssociation right now has
identified race as a risk factorfor diabetes and I feel that
that's an outdated belief, it'sracism, it's oppression, that's
the risk factor, it's not race.
And so that's my spice.
(42:21):
And anyone who wants to join mein talking with the American
Diabetes Association, I'mwilling, I'd be very polite, but
there's just no reason for usto have race as a risk factor.
It is racism, it is oppression.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Wow, that's.
I could see why some people arelike no, thank you, because
they don't want to talk aboutoppression or that any of these
things are actually real andhappening.
That it's more because I guesswhen they're saying it's race,
are they saying like for somegenetic reason, that it's
happening in people of color, ordo they say they just say Like
(43:02):
it's a risk factor?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Race.
It's a risk factor and so ifwe're getting into culture, we
could turn around and sayculture.
So if you're of maybe, chineseor Asian culture, we could put
the word culture in there.
But I don't think it's that.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So tell everybody where they can find you.
You've obviously got some greatworks out there.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So the Inclusive Diabetes Care is a continuing
education company and we haveprograms that people can listen
to and that company and Iabbreviated as IDC.
The IDC also has a newsletterwhich I write a lot about those
topics the familiar belonging,inclusion, discernment, weight
(43:47):
inclusive diabetes care.
We have that and for thelisteners in that same
newsletter.
So I use Substack.
We also have the no weight lossrequired and that's a
newsletter.
It's free.
People can support my work soyou're welcome to purchase it
but it is free and that is justreally conversations for the
consumer around weight inclusivecare for people with or at risk
(44:09):
of diabetes.
And yeah, hopefully that startsus having conversations that
are interesting and informativeand helps us shift that mindset
so we can start turning aroundsaying how do I get out of that
binary?
How can I start seeing moreopportunities?
Speaker 1 (44:25):
And then to find the center for mindful eating.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Just Google the Center for Mindful Eating.
It's a 403b non-profit,international non-profit.
They do have resources in bothEnglish and Spanish so for all
Spanish speaking people, pleasenote you can come.
It's really focused.
It's had a beautiful shift andI really hats off to the current
board.
They're doing some amazing work, including defining mindful
(44:51):
eating, so researchers can do abetter job of researching it and
getting some of theirguidelines around that as well.
And for those people who arenot familiar with mindful eating
or think of it as a diet, itreally is part of that weight
inclusive approach.
It does use metta, orcompassion and self-compassion,
as the foundation by which weenter and return to the present
(45:14):
moment, but the Center forMindful Eating is near and dear
to my heart.
So the Center for MindfulEating dot org.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Great Well, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate your body of workso much and it's been really
nice getting to listen to youtalk about it.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meAll right, take care.
All right.
So today I'm very excited tohave Megret Fletcher with us,
and why don't you just go aheadand jump in and tell us all
about yourself so?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm a registered dietitian, diabetes care and
education specialist.
I've been in the diabetes spacenow just about 30 years.
I've been a dietitian a littlebit longer than that and back in
I wrote my first anti-diet bookback in 1994.
So really a lot.
I've been in the space ofnon-dieting, which we now call
(00:32):
weight inclusive care, for a bitand, yeah, I've written some
more books since then andhopefully we'll get a chance to
talk about the non-profit, theCenter for Mind Fleeting that I
help co-found.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Absolutely Well.
What is it that made you reallyinterested, that you wanted to
focus your career on diabetes?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I started off as an eating disorder dietitian in a
lock psychiatric unit and when Istarted my career we had about
three months to work with ourclients, and when the DRGs came
about, the length of stay wasreduced to about three days and
I found myself basicallystarting IV nutrition or tube
(01:13):
feedings for clients, and itreally wasn't where I was.
It just really didn't have anyinterest to me.
So I was much more interestedin relationship-based counseling
and so I said well, twodiabetes there, it's a chronic
illness.
I'll hang out with them for awhile and I've loved it and
never look back.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Wow, yeah, 30 years is quite a commitment, a bit,
yeah.
So what is it about dietculture that's making your eyes
roll the hardest right now?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
You know, this kind of question I thought and I
really have been kind of chewingon it a little bit more.
When I think about eye rolling,I think about kind of my
present day self versus youngerme, and so I would really say
the thing is that I see thechanges, the binary.
I am very aware of the binary,how diet culture reinforces,
(02:03):
energizes this good-badnarrative.
I'm very aware of how.
It is so black and white, it'sso right or wrong, it's so
binary and younger me loved thebinary.
Younger me was like, oh, I'mright, but present day me is
like I don't know about that.
(02:23):
So the eye rolling is reallylooking at how my own journey
and really understanding howmuch more comfortable I am kind
of leaning into.
Maybe that isn't exactly howlife works, maybe that's just
how I want life to work.
And I think that that brings usto that idea of magical
thinking and wishful thinking,and to me that's all really what
(02:46):
diet culture is.
Is this belief that once I YX,then my life will be great, and
once I eat Y then my life willbe great, and if I only do Z,
then my life will be great.
And again, it's this binarythat is faulty.
It is a false narrative and formyself I just I really can see
(03:10):
how appealing that is.
I want to help, so I love thefalse narrative.
I love the idea that there's aright way to do things.
It excites me because I couldbe right.
So now we're kind of gettinginto ego, but that desire to
help isn't a bad thing.
We just really have torecognize, I think, for
(03:32):
ourselves, that we are lookingat people.
We are looking at health as afixed thing, and health is
dynamic, it's not fixed.
And people are dynamic andthey're not things, so they
can't be fixed.
So we have so many falsenarratives around diet culture.
(03:52):
They're just so familiar, theyare the air we breathe, at the
water we swim in so we don'tactually think to question them.
And because they're so egoreinforcing I spend a lot of
time becoming a dietitian.
I spend a lot more timebecoming a diabetes educator.
I really want to be right.
(04:13):
That's very ego reinforcing, soit kind of self feeding.
And that leads us to the largerissue, which is these
narratives these black and white, these binary narratives are
just part of a largerconversation around depression.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So I certainly love that concept because I think
that is what makes me so bananas, and especially in coaching or
talking to someone, becauseyou're trying to almost
introduce gray and it's like inin brains, because I remember
when it was introduced to me andmy brain is like Beep boop,
boop boop, like does not compute, I was like I don't even know
(04:52):
what you're talking about and Ithink that certainly is like
it's so ingrained.
And then I feel like, becauseI've been in Health and Wellness
for about 30 years as well,like because of especially
scalable solutions, so largeweight loss programs are
something that we've got to makerules for this program to be
(05:15):
able to sell it.
So that has really, I feel like, highlighted the binary
concepts as well, because Ican't sell you something that
says, Well, it depends, Likewhere's the solution there?
Because then I'm not giving youthe answer.
So I think that kind ofcertainly the diet companies
(05:37):
have pushed that like where elsedo you feel like that messaging
is coming from?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, stepping back and just kind of feeding off
your example a little bit more,which is it's the false view.
We really have to see the falseview and so for many of us who
are kind of swimming in thiswater, it's hard for us to get
out of it and to take that, youknow, 5000 foot view.
But if we turn around and wesay that the false view is being
(06:04):
fat is unhealthy, that's thefalse view.
So being fat is unhealthy is aweight normative view.
And I clarifying these termsbecause I want people who are
listening, who are motivated tostart maybe Google searching
these things and start turningaround saying, well, what is the
research and where do I look itup?
So we want to give peoplecorrect terminology.
(06:25):
So weight normative is thisbelief that being that is wrong,
it's unhealthy, and so a weightinclusive approach is turning
around saying, well, whathappens if that lens or that
view is not correct?
And what would, how would westart looking at it differently?
And it's a new field kind ofcoming in, though I feel like
I've been in it for a long timeand I'm sure you feel the same
(06:46):
way.
We're starting to recognize,wow, health is really, really
complex and you know our surgeongeneral, the vet Murphy.
He talks about loneliness andhe is coming from a weight
normative view and if you canget past the first maybe two
chapters of his book, he'sreally talking about how
loneliness is more detrimentalto our health than our weight.
(07:07):
It's more detrimental to ourhealth than smoking 15
cigarettes a day that's a half apack.
So I really want to be veryclear we have over identified
the problems of weight and whenwe talk about over
identification and hopefully wecan unpack that a little bit
more but Kristen Network on selfcompassion really talks about
(07:30):
when we're not compassionate toourselves we over identify.
We believe that this onemistake is the reason why
everything's falling apart.
We believe that weight is thereason our health is all falling
apart and yet the research isnot supporting that.
And using diabetes as anexample, the American Diabetes
Association released a statementsaying that 50 to 60% what you
(07:54):
to think about this 50 to 60% ofall outcomes of diabetes are
related to the socialdeterminants of health.
Taking a step back and lookingat that binary.
Taking a step back and lookingat that binary, all of a sudden
we realize, wow, this is areally complicated, very tangled
up problem with lots of factorsand in research we call those,
(08:18):
you know, confounding variables.
But there's so many of them,it's not simple.
The black and white is simple.
I can get my head around thatand that's why I like it,
because I sound smart, and soit's so reinforcing to turn
around saying no, no, the weightnormative approach has to be
correct.
Because I can understand it andso I can sell it.
(08:41):
And I think you reallyidentified one of the factors
that are contributing to thisfalse narrative, which is health
a capitalistic product.
And that's a question.
And many countries have said no, our country has said yes.
So you know these are largerconversations, that I don't want
to appear like an economist,but I am very curious about what
(09:04):
other countries do, becausediabetes is in every part of the
world.
There is not a country, anation, a continent that is not
touched by diabetes.
Which programs and systems aredoing better or having fewer
outcomes?
What are we seeing?
And so that's where I reallylike looking at diabetes,
because I think it's looking atit from a global perspective,
(09:27):
where some of these co-foundingvariables, you know, we can
start teasing them out and starttrying to understand them a
little bit more.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
That's really fascinating because I haven't
really thought about that oflooking at you know, because
obviously other countries haveit vastly different healthcare
system than we do.
Good for them, but fascinatingto think about what it would be
like to have something chronicdisease like diabetes in an
environment like that where youjust go pick up your meds or you
(09:54):
know like novel ideas like thatthere's some research that I
get and participating in andMargaret Berman is the lead
researcher there and we'relooking at the moderators and
mediators that are impactingdiabetes prevention.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
That's a that's a fancy term and I want to break
it down a little bit more if Ican.
But basically, when we talkabout research, we're trying to
understand what is it that makesdiabetes prevention work?
So we've heard again thatweight normative view oh, it's
weight loss.
So the question is well, can wetest for them?
Can we turn around and say wasit really weight loss or is it
(10:34):
the fact that you're eatingdifferent.
Was it really weight loss?
Or is it the fact that you'rein a group and you have social
connection?
Was it really weight loss?
Or is the fact that you'reexercising more?
Was it really weight loss?
Is it the fact that you have,you know, like healthcare and
you're accessing healthcare?
Really, what was it?
And so we ask and we look atresearch to turn around, say,
did we differentiate?
What actually caused that?
And we look for, we test forthese mediators and, long story
(10:58):
short, we looked at over 7000research articles up until 2019
and what we found was less than1% and it actually wound up
being about 100-ish articles.
So from 7000 to about 100,120-ish articles actually looked
at that.
So I want you to think aboutall the research that we see in
(11:20):
diabetes and we went from 7000to 100 and of those 100,
basically we're looking at threestudies.
So when we look at all theresearch, is it really a lot of
research when we justregurgitate the same opinions In
diabetes care?
I'm really interested to turnaround and say what really was
the cause?
And can you really say it wasthe change in your weight?
(11:44):
Because when we look at it,over time the weight goes up,
but we still see the benefits ofphysical activity.
People's weight goes back up,but we still see the benefits of
improved A1c.
So what's going on there?
And that curiosity?
I think we could get morecurious.
To me, that would be awesome,because it allows us to say I
(12:07):
don't know.
And if I don't know, that's agood thing, it's okay that I
don't know, but where could Ilearn and what questions could I
ask?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, it feels like when you say curiosity, it feels
completely opposed to thebinary.
If you're buying into thebinary, you're like I don't even
need to think about it.
There it is.
But I think the effort andenergy to really ask a deeper
question like is definitely astep that I can see and you know
, and for myself certainlyearlier in my career, like I
(12:40):
loved face value this is a realokay good.
Thank you, I jotted it down,it's tattooed on my arm and that
we're done, you know.
Moving on, think about otherthings.
So who do you feel likebenefits the most from the
binary?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, I mean, my ego does for sure.
So my ego, everyone's ego does.
It allows us to say, with this,just hubris, that's almost
comical, I know this will work,and so that that's really very
problematic.
So I would definitely say thatwhen we talk about the binary,
(13:18):
it's just it's our ego and thatcreates so many different
problems.
But I think ultimately thebinary it is not actually
allowing us to do two things,which so I write a newsletter as
well, and in the newsletter Ilike to talk about there's some
themes that I talk a lot about,but one is sorting, and I talk a
(13:39):
lot about sorting, particularlyin diabetes, because I think
everyone's overwhelmed.
And so when you're overwhelmed,like what can you do when
you're overwhelmed?
Well, you, you sort.
But if we sort in two piles,we're going to get, you know,
good or bad, right or wrong.
So we're back in the binaries.
We have to understand how tosort into three piles and
normalizing, not no.
So you know like, oh, this ishelping me, probably treading
(14:01):
water, this is hurting me, likejust putting that middle group,
you can't be in the binaryanymore.
So if we sort into three groups, that's awesome, like that's
fantastic.
Now sorting also has this levelof discernment, and discernment
is different than sorting, and Ifeel like I'm a little bit like
an English nerd right now.
(14:22):
But but I want to just clarifybecause I, when I share it with
my clients, they go, oh, and itfeels like a like oh, my world
got clearer.
So when we sort, we're justtrying to put them in categories
, and when we discern, we'retrying to figure out what's good
, better, best, and they're notthe same thing.
I can put things in categoriesall I want, but it's not really
(14:44):
helping me discern what's good,better, best.
Now, if I'm in discernment, I'mnot binary.
I'm trying to turn around, saywhat's good, better, best for me
, what's good, better, best foryou, that's discernment, and so
there's a distinction there thatI just.
I really appreciate when wehave it, because for so many
people they're just like no, Ijust have to be good and I go.
(15:07):
I think your inner teenager isgoing to come out with that wish
.
So I don't know about you.
It wasn't my best time, so thatI just feel like a child.
When someone says to me, oh,you need to be good and I'm not
a child, I have a lot ofambivalence to that request,
that comment.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, absolutely, for I have an innately rebellious
spirit, and so it does make mewant to roll up my sleeves.
Well, what do you think good is?
Because here's what I'm goingto tell.
What do you feel like are thekind of major harms, and maybe
some minor harms from the binary?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I really think that the probably the major harm that
we can talk about is the cyclethat this is creating.
So the binary creates a cycle,it creates a view and you can't
get out of it.
So I would say that that's veryharmful and when we think about
our current society, which isit's a capitalistic society and
(16:09):
it's feeding this binary view,it's almost like we have to.
We have to see it as a falseview and that's hard for people.
So it's a major harm becausewe've built so many systems in
place that make it seem likeit's familiar and familiar.
Is this funny experience thatwe don't notice something's
(16:32):
wrong?
I mean, it's so familiar, Ican't be wrong.
I've done this 100 times.
How bad could it be?
But yet familiar is like thatsiren song.
So if we go back to Odysseusand that story of him being
strapped to the mast where thesirens are singing and people
who listen to it drive theirship onto the, onto the rocks,
(16:55):
you know, and Odysseus strapshimself to the mast where he can
listen to the siren song, wehave to recognize that this,
this binary, is.
It's familiar, it is like asiren song, but it's not leading
us to good, better, best, it'snot actually helping us.
It's actually driving us intothe rocks, which then fuels this
(17:17):
cycle of oh well, that was badand this would be better, like
let's do this because that wasbad and it's this binary.
But to understand that it's acycle and it's hard for people
to see that cycle and because ittakes effort, because it's
challenging, a lot of people arelike I don't really want to do
(17:39):
it and I just, you know, there'sa lot of harm there.
And there's an author, heatherMcGee.
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith her work, but she wrote
the book the Sum of Us and Ibelieve she's a lawyer, but she
might be a PhD person.
I'm not sure of her manyaccolades and talents and
accomplishments, but she wrotethis book called the Sum of Us,
(18:02):
which really highlights thisidea of a zero sum game.
I don't know if you rememberthat one way back in, but for
myself it was a little review.
It was like, oh, I know whatthat means.
And then I read her book and Iwent oh, I know what that means
better, I understand what thatmeans at a very different level,
which was good.
But basically a zero sum gamemeans we do things thinking it
(18:25):
would help us but it actuallyhurts us.
And she's talking about how allof our efforts and not all of
them, but you know a lot ofmajor efforts in our society are
the zero sum game that we'retrying to do, something that
would help us but it winds uphurting us.
And really the fuel what'sfueling it is what I like to
(18:47):
call the oppression handbook.
And the oppression handbook isdoesn't matter if it's driven
because of fat phobia or racismor ableism, healthism, if we're
afraid of, you know, gender orsex.
It doesn't matter why we'retrying to oppress someone we
engage in and we create thesesystems that we think, oh,
(19:08):
that's going to make it better,but it winds up just making it
worse and it makes it worse foreverybody.
And she really writes a verycompelling, detailed book that I
would highly recommend toreally help us take that step
back and see the major harm,which is this binary view.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
That's so interesting , and we always put all of the
materials in the show notes.
So we'll link all the resourcesyou've talked about so far and
I think that is so interestingbecause I do feel like we get on
our little hamster wheels andwe're doing all the things and
thinking that we're doingsomething.
(19:46):
But I think it's even moreinteresting that you're linking.
It's not that you're thinkingthat you're doing something,
you're actually hurting yourselfin the meantime.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And that's hard.
It's hard for me to own that asa healthcare provider.
My self identity is that of youknow, caring and concern.
I mean my kids joke with mebecause you know they're all
like I'm in Slytherin, I'm in,you know, gryffindor, you know,
and they talk about the HarryPotter houses and they look at
me and they go you areHufflepuff and like, the sorting
(20:16):
had no problem sorting.
I was only Hufflepuff.
I will only be in Hufflepuff.
That's just what I do.
I'm Hufflepuff all the way andand they just crack up because
they're saying the sorting hadstruggled with me, because
they're like, and it neverstruggled with you.
So my identity is so wrapped upin being a helper.
(20:38):
It can make me very blind to myprivilege.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
It can make me very blind to how I'm contributing to
, like you said, these largerharms which you know is very
problematic, yeah, and I thinkanybody that works in this field
has certainly looked back andshook their head that, oh my
gosh, I can't believe that Ithought this or taught this or
(21:01):
encouraged this.
And I have talked about theapology tour for making you
count your almonds and all ofthese things that I really
believed were helpful, and then,really like, once you step back
, it's like, oh my gosh, I madeyou just as obsessed as I am
Made you putting as much focuson these things when one.
(21:22):
It's not helpful and it isharmful.
I think that every practitionerand hopefully every
practitioner does, come to aplace where they see that.
I definitely see a lot ofpeople that feel, seem very
confident in what they are doing, and I'm always I always say
like I wish I had the confidenceof a man standing in the
(21:43):
grocery store talking aboutchemicals in the food.
Just sure that harming all ofus.
Because I'm like, is it, youknow?
But there are a lot of followup questions that they're like
here it is nailed, it done, andthat gets back to that
discernment.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So we sort chemicals in the food are bad, non
chemicals in the food are good.
We're back to that binary.
If we turn around, we say, well, it's good for me to eat, it's
better for me to eat foods thatare less chemicals, but it's
best for me to eat foods that Ican afford.
You know, you can turn aroundand you can start looking at.
We're trying to discern what'sthe right choice for me and I
(22:23):
work with people that theyreally are struggling.
Food prices are very high andI've spent a lot of time really
going through and going tostores and really price checking
and saying, hey, frozen foodsare cheapest here.
You know, paper goods arecheapest here.
This is where you can buy dogand cat food.
These are where you can getcleaning supplies.
(22:45):
It does make some assumptionsthat my clients have cars to get
around, so I have to clarifythat because if they don't have
transportation, then you know westart looking at ordering
online and we start looking atplaces where we can buy items on
a major bus route and the statewhere I live in we don't have a
public transportation outsideof buses.
(23:06):
So just really becoming familiar, like what are the bus routes
and how would someone movethrough these stores and how
would they actually transportthe food that they get?
So it's really a lot oflogistics, meaning you can't buy
your frozen foods and then gobuy your paper goods.
So there's a lot of logisticsthere and I think we forget that
when we say things like oh,chemicals and food are bad.
(23:28):
We've made so many assumptionsthat everybody's food experience
is just like mine.
Everybody's food choices andtheir needs and their reasons
why they choose foods are thesame as mine.
And that goes back to thathubris again of turning around
saying what are the odds?
That's true, just give me oddsto bet on.
I really think that the oddswould be like one in a million,
(23:51):
that that's true.
One in a thousand, that that'strue because we have so many
different needs.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
I love how holistic your approach is and I think
really anybody that's workedone-on-one you start to realize.
And until I worked one-on-onein health coaching and got out
of fitness because everybodythat was there for fitness had a
certain amount of money,discretionary funds, that they
could spend.
So these things weren't issuestransportation, affordability of
(24:20):
food, and I think when Istarted working in environments
where that was present, that wasschool for me and I was very
lucky that people I worked withwere patient.
And because I did a lot of youknow what, I'm going to look all
this up and we'll talk about itwhen I see you again in two
weeks to come back with justwhat you're talking, pricing and
(24:41):
what is reasonable and to leavebehind the fresh is best.
Fresh is not best for everyone.
It might be preferred by many.
But and even though I talkabout you know my sons are
college age and we've had a lotof fresh vegetables but they
just struggle to make it workand it doesn't make sense for
them because they'll forget itor just different how they are
(25:04):
in the kitchen.
So that money down the draindoes nobody any good.
But what if just had somefrozen broccoli and then you can
just get a little out as youneed it, it's like works
perfectly fine.
So tell me I'm alwaysinterested in people are trying
to change their behaviors.
You know the mindset shifts andthe skill set shifts.
What do you believe, like ourtwo things that people could do
(25:26):
to kind of change their mindsetsand then two for some skill
sets.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Hmm, well, I think for myself, just listening to
people with lived experience isreally helpful.
So the individuals that I'mvery interested in are fat
individuals with diabetes, soI'm very interested in listening
to their experience.
Or, you know, fat individualsthat are managing health in a
higher weight body.
So I'm really interested inkind of what that's like.
(25:55):
And you know, I got a lot outof reading Roxanne Gay's book
hunger.
I got a lot out of reading thatDiane's book weightless.
You know, I got a lot out oflistening to and learning about
and hearing from you know peoplewho I think I know.
But you know, when you givethem the microphone you're like,
(26:16):
oh yeah, I totally get whereyou're coming from.
And I think, again, going backto Dr Murthy's book around
loneliness, you know it wasinteresting how much, how
connected I felt.
I think that that's really themind shift, is that when we can
experience that sense ofbelonging, we move out of the
binary.
It's not right or wrong, goodor bad, it's us, it's all of us.
(26:39):
That is really what allows usto have that shift to belonging.
And the inclusive diabetes carewhich is the company that I own
we're a professional educationcompany.
You know.
It's founded under the pyramid,this inclusion pyramid that I
created, and at the bottom ofthat pyramid is this idea of
belonging and we need to belong.
(27:01):
And people with diabetes needto feel like they belong.
You know, fat people need tofeel like they belong, queer
people need to feel like theybelong, people with just
everybody.
We just all need to feel likewe belong.
And what's interesting, youknow, I mentioned the research
and Dr Lauren Beach is one ofthe researchers I'm working with
and her research, which is fromthe LGBTQIA community, talks
(27:24):
about pride and how pride isantidote to shame.
And when we think about prideit's because we belong.
We belong.
So we need that sense ofbelonging.
But if it isn't easy to belong,we're not going to stay with it
.
And if we belong and it feelseasy but I don't feel seen and
(27:45):
heard, then I'm not going to bethere.
And we're hearing howoppression would.
It mutes those who are having ahigher or a bigger load to
carry.
So listening to people withlived experience really allows
them to be seen and heard.
And if we feel like we belongand it's not too hard and we're
(28:06):
feeling seen and heard, but thenwe're judged, we're never going
to get to wholesome self care.
So when we think about kind ofskills and mindset, part of this
is really hitting home thisidea that we need to look at
what the basic needs ofinclusion are.
And for my community people withdiabetes, my community people
(28:28):
with type two diabetes, mycommunity fat people with type
two diabetes, my community queerpeople, people with
disabilities, people witheconomic strain, people who all
of all of us, we all belong.
I'm here, I'm standing insolidarity with people with
diabetes because we belong.
(28:48):
I'm touched by diabetes.
I'm touched 100 different waysin my personal life by diabetes
and I want those people, I wantthose experiences.
When I develop diabetes I'mdefinitely from a family with
diabetes I want to know that Ibelong.
And so, practicing this idea ofcoming alongside, not trying to
(29:11):
get into that, oh, that's rightor that's wrong, but how can I
come alongside?
That's really what allows us tobelong.
And if, as we turn around, wesay, well, you can belong if you
do X, y and Z, count thealmonds, walk a 5k, wear a
tracker, it's really notbelonging.
That's just another task.
Conditional, yes, veryconditional.
(29:31):
Or you can belong as long asyou're losing weight, very, you
know.
You can belong as long asyou're taking your meds, you can
belong as long as you're trying.
We can just see like that's notbelonging.
That's just not belonging.
So really taking a step back andreally turn around saying, am I
really listening to what it'slike to struggle and do I have
(29:55):
the emotional capacity to listento struggle?
And I think that that's one ofthe things that a lot of times
we don't want to listen to firstperson narrative because it
hurts us.
It reminds us of the humancondition, which is painful and
it's hard to witness suffering.
It's very hard.
So we got to get a reps and wegot to practice and a resource
(30:18):
just to shout out aroundbelonging is the Othering and
Belonging Institute out ofBerkeley, california.
So I really have benefitedtremendously from that
organization and I try topromote it whenever I can.
I think John Powell is.
He's the director and I thinkhe's brilliant, but he is
surrounded by other brilliantpeople so I don't want to single
(30:39):
him out.
He would not want to be singledout, but just to recognize that
that's a wonderful resource forhealthcare professionals but
also for any regular laylistener who says I'm not in
healthcare but I really wantthis sense of belonging.
You know, if I fact Murphy'sbook first two chapters have
some weight centric verbiage.
But the Othering and BelongingInstitute, both are really
(31:01):
excellent ways for us to leaninto belonging.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
That's so fascinating and it like because when you're
talking about belonging, itfeels warm.
Just listening to talk about itlike feels so nice.
And I think about, especiallylike working in corporate
wellness.
Many times it's just a land ofOthering.
It is.
This is a problem, your problem, what are you going to do about
(31:28):
your problem?
And the belonging is, if you'remeeting the correct metrics,
whatever those may be, thenwelcome.
And I used to see that a lotwhen I was doing health coaching
full time.
They love to have in personevents and I always said and
this is kind of at the beginningof webinars 2011, I think 12.
(31:53):
And I was like we are missing alot of people because a lot of
people don't want to come herebecause it's full of people
running 10ks, it's full of thinpeople.
Besides, the fact you've gotfolding chairs like this
environment doesn't create anybelonging for anybody, except
for who is in this room.
And I think I'm excited tocheck out that resource you
(32:15):
shared, because I think thateverybody needs more warm
fuzzies and to feel like oh look, I mean I just love that
concept.
Well, what messaging do youthink is helpful for the younger
generations to hear now?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, again, I think that this idea that we belong I
think is really important.
You know, my daughters areadults and I think they really
get the weight inclusivemessaging.
But again, I think that thesense of how do we belong, how
can we connect there is a lot ofdisconnection and so just
(32:54):
putting down, creating space forus to connect, and one of the
things that I think that a lotof younger people are wanting to
hear is I do belong and how canI create those spaces where
belonging can occur?
And again, I look at theyounger generation and, because
(33:14):
we've been doing this for awhile, I think they get it much
faster than we do.
I think they get inclusion muchfaster.
So I'm not 100% sure they needsomething I think maybe we could
learn from, so maybe we couldflop it around.
What can we learn from theyounger generation?
And I would say that that'sprobably just connecting with
them and really recognizing thatthe information can flow both
(33:39):
ways and I have really benefitedfrom my kids pushing back and
saying, yeah, mom, your view oftopic, yeah, a little outdated,
and I'm like oh, oh casp, andthen of course you know, I read
about it and I was like, oh yeah, yeah, you're right, it was
(34:00):
updated.
Thanks, I'll change the heads up.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yes, as the mother of two, gen Zers, I love I look at
their friendships and what theyare unbothered by and that I
see, then societies, differentcorners, dark corners of society
are falling all over themselvesto vilify different things.
And I just love that.
(34:23):
My kids, they mind their ownbusiness so much more.
They just, you know, if I everask them questions about
different things, they're like Idon't know, like it's not my
business, I've never asked them.
Or, you know, like it's really.
It is so just fresh to seetheir takes and I absolutely
have the same experiences whereI'll say something and they're
(34:44):
like that's not it.
Yeah, I wouldn't say it likethat.
I'm like oh, okay, okay, howwould you say it?
I am ready to say it that way.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
We have a family member that'stransitioning their gender and
my kids are just like, yeah, andI'm like, oh okay, you know,
I've taken two classes, I justneed to learn how can I support
my family member?
And they're just like to themit's fine and oh okay, yeah,
(35:18):
just again, it's.
I think the the information wethink about.
There's a lot of informationthat younger generations can
help us with.
So amen to the blessings.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Absolutely Well.
Are there any questions thatyou wish I had asked, Hmm?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
I think we covered a lot, so probably not any burning
questions that I have.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Maybe there's some that that you'll think of later.
Maybe that's what I do, yeahfor sure 3 am is my best
thinking time to come up withthings of like oh that's, that's
what it all clicks for you, solet's run through our closing
questions.
So if you didn't have thiscareer, what do you think you
(36:05):
would want to do?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Well, I didn't have this career in the beginning.
So I wanted to be aphysiological neuropsychologist,
which means that you look atthe brain and emotional changes
after brain injury.
And I was in a lovely trackprogram and two of us were going
to go on to be invited to thePhD program.
I, unfortunately, was numberseven out of eight.
(36:28):
So my major professor saidwhat's plan B?
So then I became a dietitianand my major professor was like
good choice.
So I feel like I tried adifferent.
You know, I was very hopefulbut didn't work out.
And I think younger me looksback and says I think anything
mechanical, I'm very interestedin engineering.
(36:49):
So you know, if I wasn't, if Ididn't have the ability to be an
engineer, like a civil engineeris kind of where I would go.
You know, I think maybe amechanic or something that's
working in the engineering field, because I'm just fascinated by
big things.
You know, working forCaterpillar would just be like a
dream come true.
You know, driving a giantexcavator.
(37:11):
We, we had some wood logged andthey let me drive up in the
skitter and I asked them howmuch the skitter cost and they
told me.
I said I don't think I shouldbe driving that If I break it I
can't fix it, and they're likeit's a skitter, you can't break
it.
I'm like, oh, trust me, I don'tknow about that.
So, but I do love machinery andbig equipment, big stuff.
(37:34):
I just I find the scale just sofascinating that people can
invent this stuff and it'senormous.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
It's so interesting I have yet to ask anybody that
question that I wasn't like.
I didn't see that comingSkitter driver, that's exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a friend, friend of the families.
He said well, you know youcould be a woodsman.
I said, yeah, he goes if youlike dealing with broken diesel
lines in freezing weather, and Iwent no, not so much.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
What about inside jobs?
So yeah, that's just a clearchoice.
Fascinating, interesting.
What is your proudestaccomplishment?
Well, I think we talked aboutkids.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
So, aside with that, because I feel like that's a
pretty normal thing to talkabout, I really do am proud of
my work in the mindful eatingspace.
So in 2005, I wrote my firstbook Discover Mindful Eating in
that genre.
And then in 2006, I co-foundedthe Center for Mindful Eating.
(38:43):
And the Center for MindfulEating continues today.
It's an internationalorganization and I really am
very proud of how they arereally helping people understand
how to bring the present momentto food and eating.
So how can we eat and taste andenjoy that experience?
How can we do that?
And what are the things thatget in the way of us being in
(39:05):
the present moment when we'reeating?
And most of the time it's ourthoughts, but again, it's a
practice, and it's a practicebased in meta or compassion.
And so again we're bringingback that idea of
self-compassion.
And you know the joke aboutself-compassion if it doesn't
work, consider increasing thedose, so just more.
If you're finding like, well,you know, I tried compassion
(39:26):
once and it didn't work, justkeep up in the dose until you
get to that level whereself-compassion really works.
And I feel like right now, inour current society, where we're
having a lot of voices.
There's a lot of discussionscoming up.
We really, we really do needsome compassion and I think
(39:46):
mindfulness is a great way to doit.
I did think about something thatdoes me, now that we've talked
so, a little pet peeve that Ihave is when people say, when
you're trying to explainsomething that's difficult or
almost ineffable, they go, yeah,that doesn't make sense.
And I go, yeah, this idea, thisbelief that every single
(40:08):
utterance out of my mouth isperfectly crafted, coherent
narrative.
I have a pet peeve about that.
I feel like that's anunreasonable expectation.
Yeah, I'd like to quote MarkTwain.
I would have wrote less, but Iran out of time.
You just have to recognize thiswhole idea of we are all
creating a coherent narrativeand it does take time and we
(40:29):
practice.
You know, just talking with youis helping me say, oh, you know,
where was I clear, where couldI be clearer?
We're practicing, we're tryingto understand what sticks and
what doesn't, and this there's abelief.
You know, there's a verydismissive quality right now in
our society that says, oh,heather, didn't make sense, I
don't have to listen to her.
Oh, figure, didn't make sense,I don't have to listen to her.
(40:50):
It's very dismissive and it'slike no, no, you can participate
, you can get curious.
You could say, oh, how would Isay that better?
What information would I wantadded?
Or what research?
You know where is that comingfrom.
But again that curiosity comesback, instead of expecting it to
be just presented to us in abig, you know neatly packaged,
(41:10):
bright bow, so I don't have todo any kind of cognitive lifting
.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
That actually is a peeve.
I have a peeve there I get thatand I see it so often and I
think that that's like when I gospeak like, I can sometimes see
people like turn it off.
They're like nope, didn't likethat.
I was like wait, I've got 40more minutes, come on, this gets
better.
They're like nope, don't wantto hear it, don't want to take
(41:35):
it in.
So what is your spiciestopinion that people disagree
with?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So for myself.
I just want to give a littlecontext and a little background.
So we know from the HumanG-Mone project that race does
not exist.
So race is a construct, it'snot a biological fact.
So the spice and I would loveto get traction and movement on
this is when we talk aboutidentifying risk factors for
(42:00):
diabetes that we remove thatrace element from that
questionnaire.
So when the American DiabetesAssociation right now has
identified race as a risk factorfor diabetes and I feel that
that's an outdated belief, it'sracism, it's oppression, that's
the risk factor, it's not race.
And so that's my spice.
(42:21):
And anyone who wants to join mein talking with the American
Diabetes Association, I'mwilling, I'd be very polite, but
there's just no reason for usto have race as a risk factor.
It is racism, it is oppression.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Wow, that's.
I could see why some people arelike no, thank you, because
they don't want to talk aboutoppression or that any of these
things are actually real andhappening.
That it's more because I guesswhen they're saying it's race,
are they saying like for somegenetic reason, that it's
happening in people of color, ordo they say they just say Like
(43:02):
it's a risk factor?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Race.
It's a risk factor and so ifwe're getting into culture, we
could turn around and sayculture.
So if you're of maybe, chineseor Asian culture, we could put
the word culture in there.
But I don't think it's that.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So tell everybody where they can find you.
You've obviously got some greatworks out there.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So the Inclusive Diabetes Care is a continuing
education company and we haveprograms that people can listen
to and that company and Iabbreviated as IDC.
The IDC also has a newsletterwhich I write a lot about those
topics the familiar belonging,inclusion, discernment, weight
(43:47):
inclusive diabetes care.
We have that and for thelisteners in that same
newsletter.
So I use Substack.
We also have the no weight lossrequired and that's a
newsletter.
It's free.
People can support my work soyou're welcome to purchase it
but it is free and that is justreally conversations for the
consumer around weight inclusivecare for people with or at risk
(44:09):
of diabetes.
And yeah, hopefully that startsus having conversations that
are interesting and informativeand helps us shift that mindset
so we can start turning aroundsaying how do I get out of that
binary?
How can I start seeing moreopportunities?
Speaker 1 (44:25):
And then to find the center for mindful eating.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Just Google the Center for Mindful Eating.
It's a 403b non-profit,international non-profit.
They do have resources in bothEnglish and Spanish so for all
Spanish speaking people, pleasenote you can come.
It's really focused.
It's had a beautiful shift andI really hats off to the current
board.
They're doing some amazing work, including defining mindful
(44:51):
eating, so researchers can do abetter job of researching it and
getting some of theirguidelines around that as well.
And for those people who arenot familiar with mindful eating
or think of it as a diet, itreally is part of that weight
inclusive approach.
It does use metta, orcompassion and self-compassion,
as the foundation by which weenter and return to the present
(45:14):
moment, but the Center forMindful Eating is near and dear
to my heart.
So the Center for MindfulEating dot org.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Great Well, thank you so much for being here.
I appreciate your body of workso much and it's been really
nice getting to listen to youtalk about it.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meAll right, take care.
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