2. Transportation: Did Something Go Wrong?

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As the hum of Atlanta's traffic weaves a story of infrastructure and societal evolution, our latest conversation invites you into the living history of a city's love affair with transportation. We lay tracks through the personal and the communal, sharing tales that are often overshadowed by the roar of engines—like the legacy of my own family's Pullman Porters and how these railroading pioneers laid the foundations for our economic growth. Dr. Chris Wyczalkowski from MARTA steps aboard to unravel the systemic challenges preventing Atlanta from fully embracing public transit, dissecting the complex intersections of race, city culture, and the stigmas that linger around bus and train travel.

Our journey continues as we navigate the societal impact of Atlanta's transit decisions, from the erection of neighborhood barricades against integration to the suburban sprawl that followed. We turn the spotlight on the unsung heroes behind the wheel, like Coy Dumas, with over two million miles of untarnished driving record, whose personal stories of perseverance remind us that public transit is more than just a mode of travel—it's the pulse of our communities. These narratives take us down memory lane, reflecting on the profound changes within Atlanta's landscape, from the Lakewood Assembly plant era to the present day, and how every turn of the wheel has left its mark on the city's soul.

Wrapping up our expedition, we celebrate the enduring spirit of Atlanta's public service workers through the story of a top-ranked transit operator, whose dedication and discipline exemplify the qualities of success in this field. We examine the pivotal role of public transportation in urban resilience, pondering the varied needs of city dwellers and suburbanites alike. With heartfelt anecdotes and critical insights, this episode is a testament to the hardworking individuals who keep Atlanta moving and a call to action for a more connected and equitable future on the roads and rails of this storied city.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Transit, unfortunately, is looked at as a
second-hand mode oftransportation.
Right, it's not for me, it'sfor the lower-income people.
It's how it's viewed.
I remember one time somebodytold me a story where they got
off a bus in their neighborhoodand the neighbor came up to them
and said oh, what happened?
Something go wrong?

(00:21):
If you ever need a ride, justlet me know.
So the response was not like ohcool, you're using public
transportation.
It's like there's somethingmust have happened to cause you
to have to use it that one time.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
Let me tell you how we speak.
We up y'all.
This is the Atlanta Formula.
I am your conciliator, I'm ZeppLeClaire IV and so glad to be
with you here in the moment.
I hope you all are splendid.
I'm Will Shout out to all theviewers who, rockin' with the
motion Episode 1 is out and it'sa success, and I know this

(01:24):
because you told me.
And, yes, we plan to keep thisthing going.
Thank you for the condolencesabout my dear grandmother and,
yes, the grief is there.
But here's the thing about that.
I was talking to a rabbit, witha cat recently who hit me on
some game and helped me seethings in clearer light about
this.
You know he was in Change ofStories and he had lost his mom
some years back and said to meyou know, it's not that over

(01:46):
time your grief gets smaller,it's that you grow around it.
And I felt that these moments,all moments, are meant for us to
build through the fertilizer,the dung, the smelly matter you
did and that I intend to do.

(02:07):
Alright, let's get into it,let's do this.
It all started with the railroad.
Just as the internetirreversibly sped up and
expanded communication globally,railroad transformed how
information was transmittedacross distances.
Before railroads, the speed ofinformation spread was as fast

(02:29):
as your fastest horse.
Railroads effectively alteredthe power dynamics of how people
, cities, states and evennations interacted.
Nothing was the same, and thusthe city was built.
The establishment of theterminus in 1837 was a promotion
from a simple cornerstone thatconnected the western and

(02:51):
Atlantic rail lines to an entityto be built upon.
How often was this piece ofland overlooked or ignored
before the Georgia GeneralAssembly found it?
Like the scriptural verse, thiswas a cornerstone that set
Atlanta on a path of rapidgrowth and development.
Because of its level land itmade for easy maneuvering,

(03:14):
little break concerns and noneed for expensive tunnels and
high maintenance costs.
It was affordable forbusinesses and merchants to
operate from.
It extended the reach of anyenterprise looking to deliver
steel, coal, timber, people.
If you were an entrepreneur inSavannah or the Midwest at the

(03:38):
time, your revenue and profitopportunities increased
innumerably.
Ask George Pullman, an engineerand industrialist who
introduced a novel concept atthe time sleeping cars for a
luxurious overnight travelservice.
He specifically chose AfricanAmericans to employ, largely due

(03:59):
to it being common at the timefor them to serve, even though
many were demeaned and called alot of Georgia's boys and hard
ER's among American Africans.
When it didn't pay in dollars,it paid in value.
It provided a way to experiencethe region and rest of the

(04:19):
country, to make contacts andincrease their network, spread
information and gain generalknowledge, and if you are
socially impressive enough, youcan walk away with significant
tips.
Two of my great-grandfatherswere Pullman porters and
consequently their sons went onto use these osmotic and taught

(04:40):
experiences to leveragefinancially successful lives for
themselves in Atlanta, settingtheir children yours truly
included, up to do the same.
Now, when people talk abouttransporting in Atlanta, the
very first notion that comes tomind is traffic.
Relatively few realize todaythat when you sit in traffic in

(05:04):
Metro Atlanta that endemic toyour endless road rage and long
commute is the continuation ofAtlanta's Confederate legacy.
But how Well the math ain'tmathin' 3.5.
That is the percent of Atlantaresidents that use MARTA to get

(05:25):
to and from work.
According to the AtlantaRegional Commission, this is
compared with about 57% in NewYork City and 48% in Jersey City
, new Jersey.
In general, however, publictransit is low in the southern
region, with Atlanta outpacingCharlotte, nashville, orlando,

(05:47):
houston and Dallas.
Even still, many feel this lowridership is a reflection of a
deep-rooted flaw.
Many of us know about MARTA'sbill for beginnings Before the
newly initiated.
Here's a quick red pill.
Local scholars call it theoriginal sin of urban planning

(06:07):
in the city, the transitcompromise of 1971.
The seas were rooted late,however, in 1962, when World War
II hero and founding member ofthe Morehouse School of Medicine
, clinton Warner, moved into awhite subdivision on Peyton Road
in the Cascade Heights area.
What the then mayor, ivan AllenJr, built?

(06:30):
A steel and wood three-footbarricade on Peyton Road with
the intent to keep furtherAmerican Africans from moving in
.
Many got involved, including DrMartin Luther King Jr, and
there were demonstrations, kkkcross-burnings, calls for
boycotts, all that it was messy.
Eventually, after 72 days, inJanuary of 1963, a Fulton County

(06:55):
Superior Court judge ordered itto be removed.
Mayor Allen tipped down thewall within 20 minutes.
True to the nature ofConfederate roots, this led to
white flight, a mass exodus ofwhite departure that would carry
on for the next generation.
Next, forward to 1965, the sameyear Atlanta gained

(07:17):
professional sports and the sameyear my maternal grandparents
settled into the city, shot upto Dr James and Melville Costin.
The Georgia General Assemblycreated the Metropolitan Atlanta
Rapid Transit Authority for theCity of Atlanta and five
counties Fulton, decad, cobb,gwinnett, Clayton.
At the years of politicalwrangling, only voters in the

(07:39):
City of Atlanta, fulton andDecad sent it to Martin.
The dissenting counties Cobb,gwinnett, clayton is where that
mass exodus settled into.
This was the creation of theAtlanta suburban sprawl, since
only Clayton has changed itstune, but only after a

(08:00):
significant demographic shift.
Clayton is now majorityAfrican-American.
Of course, the advantages tosuburban life was there.
They knew everything lowertaxes, lower upfront living
costs, better resources likeschools, as well as distance
from African-Americans.
The decision not to expandMartin outwards to the burbs was

(08:23):
, and continues to be, supportedby fears that it will lead to
urban problems spread into theircommunities.
You know that familiar dogwhistling, descendant of
Confederate ancestry.
So now we are here, and thatain't this and this ain't that.
And now we ride strapped, stuckin arguably the worst traffic

(08:46):
in the nation.
Hello LA.
More on you later.
Well, seemingly no end in sightto this quackmire, wondering
how we got to this point.
But maybe it's a hidden factorthat has led us here, something
that, due to my ignorance orlimited knowledge on city
infrastructure and design, Ihaven't acknowledged.

(09:06):
So I reached out to somebodysmarter than me about these
things.
To get some answers, enter DrChris Vitakovsky, director of
customer insights at Martyr, tohelp me get a handle on these
things.
Of course, the views heexpresses are his and not of
Martyrs.
We met outside on a calm,breezy day at Fred Tumor

(09:31):
Elementary School.
It's a short walk from PullmanYars.
Fred Tumor was indeed a PullmanPorter himself.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
So one of the biggest challenges a city's public
transportation system face Ithink the biggest challenge or
one of them anyways is just theculture of the city itself.
Right, where we have a cultureof driving, people will drive to
see their friends two or threeblocks away, right.

(10:02):
So if you don't have sort ofthe ingrained thing to where
you're going to walk withoutwalking, you can't have transit.
There's just no way that thosego together.
You've got this first, lastmile issues of getting to the
transit station, right.
And so if you don't have theculture in a city where people

(10:26):
are thinking of alternate modesbiking, walking, public
transportation it just has nochance.
Because in order for publictransportation to work, people
have to use it and they have tosupport its expansion and its
funding.
Right.
So if I'm not in favor ofpublic transportation, if I

(10:48):
never use it and there's areferendum to fund more public
transportation, I'm gonna voteno, because money could be used
for other things that I mightthink are more useful.
So it's the culture piece.
If we get more people to use it, person by person, you know, I
think people would start, and itseems like Atlanta.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
why has it that culture taken root?
You know, and Atlanta is notunlike a lot of other
metropolises Detroit is anotherone and LA, I believe, is
another one that does not value,I guess, or doesn't have the
culture of it.
Why is it that it has a hardtime?

Speaker 1 (11:20):
developing.
So it's really interesting,right?
Because we're sitting here in aneighborhood that was developed
on a streetcar line.
You mentioned Los Angeles In.
Like the 1920s, Los Angeles hadthe best public transit system
in the world.
They have a street grid andthey've ran streetcars all over
the place.
You can get anywhere with noproblems.
So somewhere along the line,things change.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Another enormous factor was at play in
transportation policies of thelate 1960s and 70s Atlanta's
burgeoning and flourishing loveaffair with the automobile.
As Atlanta's monochromaticmigration took hold in earnest,
workers at General Motors' vastLakewood Assembly Plant in
Southeast Atlanta was crankingout the finishing touches on
many of the cars we will hearlater from these organized noise

(12:06):
and DJ2 produced classics, lowriders, civilians, ale dogs,
nothing but them lax.
All the players, all thehustlers I'm talking about a
black man having here and now,how you tame a young ball of
that ride?
Suburban caprices and candy andparlors, raspberry manticolors

(12:27):
that march like a wilder, allthe kala addicted to hustling
and stacking minded dollars.
Yeah, y'all know it.
These iconic lines were set up40 years prior by scores of
American African workers at theGM plant.
Significant this was because itenabled many with only a high

(12:47):
school education to earn forthemselves and families.
Truly enough, the plant startedbringing black workers in and
many traveled from countiesoutside city limits to commute
there.
The Lakewood plant played apivotal role in manufacturing
these cars, contributing to theeconomic growth and industrial
prowess of Atlanta during thatperiod.

(13:08):
The presence of such asignificant manufacturing
facility like Lakewood not onlyprovided jobs and economic
activity, but also helpedintegrate Atlanta into the
broader narrative of Americanindustrial and automotive
history.
The allure of roaring aroundAtlanta in cool cars took over
and kept hold Once Marta startedrunning.

(13:29):
Why rather bust a subway whenyou could drive a sleek,
powerful car and fill it withcheap petrol?
Only the people who couldn'tafford the car.
Marta became known as anisolated castaway, shunned both
by large segments of up-williesdriving blacks and
segregationist minded whites.
Looking back, it would be easy,perhaps lazy, to draw

(13:54):
conclusions that Marta wascapped from the start.
Still, somebody had to try.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
If people look at the automobile, right, they
identify with it.
Like, just think about whenpeople buy a car oh, I got this
ride, I got that ride, here's mywhip right.
People like want to show offlike whatever their images of
themselves.
It's kind of a reflection of itin their cars.
So this is the issue that we'refighting.
Is this entrenched car culture,that sort of identifies?

(14:23):
You know, we identify the carwith independence, with freedom,
and so I think that's whatwe're really fighting is turning
that tide, saying actually, youknow it's healthier, it's
better, on a whole lot ofdifferent fronts, to get out of
the automobile to meet ourneighbors.
How many doors down do youactually know your neighbors?

(14:44):
You probably know the personright next door to you Two
houses, three houses down.
You have no idea you know whattheir car looks like.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Right In 1970, lakewood became the world
producer of the Chevrolet GrandPrix.
Perhaps there is no car inAtlanta that symbolized the
era's optimism about cars morethan the Chevrolet.
It was available in severalbody styles, including a sedan,
coupe, convertible and stationwagon.
Even more than that, it hasinspired countless songs for

(15:13):
some really talented hip hopartists, including the two
earlier I referenced.
As you could probably tell, I'mquite partial to heavy
sharevies by TI and PSC, onetime to DJ Tune and them symbols
.
In August of 1990, after 62years and more than 7 million
automobiles, the last ChevroletCaprice car rolled off the

(15:34):
Lakewood line.
When that happened and therewas no viable economic engine to
replace it, well, you know hownature treats vacuums.
What a generally outside of carculture impediments to that
density housing density,population density.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
If you don't have that density, you don't have two
things.
One is, if you put it, a publictransit system is when you put
it in.
You have to travel such longdistances to get there that most
people won't do it Right.
So that's a big issue, justgetting there.

(16:14):
People talk about, hey, let'smake transit go out to the
suburbs.
Well, where are you gonna putit so that people can access it?
Not by foot, right, it's, youhave to drive to it.
So once you're already driving,are you gonna get out of your
car to get onto the train?
Right, in some cases you mightif you have a habit of doing it.

(16:34):
You might.
If there's a real reason, youmight, but if you don't have
that reason or that habitimpetus, you're just gonna
continue driving.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
What are the biggest misconceptions that people have
when it comes to Mardah.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Biggest misconceptions, I think one is,
and it's again tied to the car.
Right, it's that people thinkof not having a car as not
having freedom.
But Mardah, I think, actuallyallows you to have freedom
because when I, at one point inmy life, I lived without a car
for a few years by choice, and Ifound it a freeing experience.

(17:15):
I didn't have to worry aboutparking it, I didn't have to
worry about what's happening toit.
If a car alarm's going off, Iknow it's not my car alarm.
Right Maintenance when you gosomewhere, parking is a pain,
like you gotta pay for it.
In some places there's ampleparking, other places there
isn't.
So I think that freedom pieceis a misconception.

(17:37):
I wish that people would stopthinking of public transit as a
secondhand form oftransportation, only if you need
it.
Right, it's healthier, it'smore social, right?
I mentioned the neighbor thing,that you walk by your neighbors
.
You build these community ties,these human connections, which

(17:57):
this would take us off base.
But I think this is some of thesocial problems that we're
having, as though we're all inour little bubbles.
We forget that these otherpeople exist.
So on public transit youactually bump into real people.
You know, you talk to them.
You have these spontaneousconversations and you learn
things because you run intopeople that have different

(18:18):
perceptions than you do,different perspectives.
They think differently and aslong as you're the kind of
person that can have a happy,honest conversation, this to me.
I enjoy riding transit forthose reasons.
I run into people.
I see things that I otherwisewouldn't.
I don't have to worry aboutpeople cutting me off Like think
how much angst you get whenyou're in traffic, right, and

(18:42):
somebody cuts you off, or you'retrying to merge and someone
doesn't let you in.
All that stuff builds up inyour body.
You can actually eliminate alot of that stress by riding
transit because the only thingyou're worried about is okay,
when's the train coming orwhen's the bus coming.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Oh yeah, traffic in Atlanta.
It has a physiological toll, ittakes it for sure.
Yeah, go away, it's a thing.
Help me paint the connectionbetween Marta and the developing
Beltline.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
Marta really is there to operate the public transit
system.
We run the buses, the trains,the streetcar paratransit.
The Beltline is more of aninfrastructural amenity.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Ryan Gravel, a Georgia Tech graduate student,
proposed the Atlanta Beltline, acircular ring of light rail
that will touch on 45neighborhoods throughout the
city.
City planners andadministrators swiftly backed it
and the city council voted toapprove it as a tax allocation
district in 2005.
A tax allocation district TADis a popular method for funding

(19:46):
redevelopment projects in urbanareas.
Without weighing you down withthe details, here's the gist.
Gravel saw the Beltline as anequity equalizer of sorts,
connecting residents andcommunities in the city, but
developers saw somethingdifferent in it, more as a
private public venture to reformthe city demographically and

(20:08):
physically.
Seeing the inherent equityconcerns, gravel resigned from
the project's board in 2016.
According to Dan Emmergluck,author of Red Hot City,
referenced in the first episode,two issues are of major
concerns in regards for whom theBeltline is being built.

(20:28):
One is transit Would iteffectively connect people to
their jobs?
Does it complement the existingMARTA system?
And the other is housing.
What would it do for housingaffordability?
Would it spur gentrificationpressures?
In 2006, marta conducted a studyof potential alternatives for

(20:51):
building and operating transitalong the Beltline.
The study found that, based ontechnical feasibility and cost
effectiveness, rapid transitoffered a $315 million less
expensive option than the lightrail Beltline.
Many advocates for it say itwill boost the city's image as

(21:11):
an international destination andwill serve as an economic
engine, while others say itwould only increase
gentrification pressure and addto the affordability crisis the
city currently faces.
The Beltline is still beingdeveloped as funds become
available and has receivedmassive attention nationally and
globally.

(21:32):
By the end of this year, 80% ofthe main line trail is expected
to be complete or underconstruction.
Seamless collaboration betweenMARTA and Beltline is crucial
for making Atlanta a moreconnected and accessible city
for its citizens.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
So the connection is that if it's decided that which
we can talk about more, thisequity issue of this, but so we
can think about the neighborhoodeffects.
So if you add again any kind oftransomentary, or even the
Beltline itself already resultsin these gentrification

(22:12):
pressures.
And the issue is that when youdesign a transit system for the
people that are there at onepoint in time, but if that
system acts as a sort of agentrification magnet, those
people can no longer takeadvantage because they're not
there anymore, they've beendisplaced to other places that
they can afford.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
How does public transit accessibility impact the
daily lives of residents inunderserved communities.
If we take rest to Vouge andgive it one seat.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
There's a lot of mental illness for most people
If you don't have access.
What that means is just, bydefinition, you can't get to
certain things, so you'relimited.
So think about it like thislet's say there is a grocery
store that sells things in largequantities.

(23:02):
It's cheaper, right, but youcan't get to that grocery store.
You're going to go to whateverstore you can access, right, so
they might be selling bananasfor a dollar a banana At a
grocery store.
You could probably buy a dozenbananas for like three bucks or
something like that.
And so that person who doesn'thave access to the grocery store

(23:24):
actually is spending more money, right, because they don't have
access.
They can only go to what'savailable to them.
Or maybe they don't even havebananas.
All they have are Twinkies,right, and so that's what people
eat, and we know that if youeat enough Twinkies they talk
about, you know, buckhead tobankhead life expectancy is like
20 years apart, something likethat right, Though the exact

(23:48):
number varies based on the study.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Dr Chris is on the money.
The gap is basically agenerational part.
An average bankhead resident isexpected to bounce around 63 in
buckhead 87.
That's not even 10 miles apart.
I don't even think there'sanything else to add to that.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
And they're five miles apart and yet people have
different outcomes.
Same thing with jobs, right?
So we did a paper published inJanuary so about a year ago
where we looked at the effectsof removing public
transportation from ClaytonCounty.
This happened in 2010.
The bus system there wentbankrupt with only like three

(24:32):
years so month notice to thepeople who were living there.
Clayton County was never awealthy county.
People moved there in thosedays partly because they could
have cheap housing.
Again, there's this connectionbetween housing and
transportation, right, likethat's, your biggest piece of
your personal budget is whereyou live and how you get around.
Food is third on that list.
And so in 2010, all of a sudden, this system went away

(24:55):
completely.
Like we had transit.
Now we don't have transit, andit stayed that way for five
years until Clayton County votedto add martyr.
But over that five year periodof time, what we found is that
poverty went up and unemploymentwent up.
So the people who were thereeither lost jobs or they had to

(25:16):
take lower paying jobs becausethey couldn't get to the other
jobs they may have had.
This is anecdotal now, but thisis a mechanism by which this
could happen.
So there is that if you can'tget to all the good jobs.
You're going to take a worsejob or you're not going to have
a job at all.
Either way, you're making lessmoney.
If you have less money, you eatworse.

(25:39):
You have less access tohealthcare, right, these are all
.
These things are connected.
Quality of life, quality oflife.
Quality of life you can't getto the gym, you can't get to all
the stores.
We talked about that a momentago.
So that's the thing it's likewithout public transit for the
people who have no other way ofgetting around.

(26:01):
It limits their life choices.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
How does a freeways affect, you know, affect public
trans spaces.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, they affect it in that you know it takes
customers away because peopleare now going on the highways.
They also separateneighborhoods, right.
So where you point, you knowyou had a viable neighborhood,
maybe middle income, maybe lowermiddle income neighborhood and
now you cut it in half.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
And here is where we subtract the noise, the myth
that highways are not anintentional tool of destruction
for certain communities.
Atlanta I-75, 85 and I-20.
New Orleans ClaybourneExpressway.
Syracuse I-81.
New York City the Cross BronxExpressway.

(26:55):
Miami Interstate 95.
Detroit Interstate 375.
Nashville I-40.
Oakland I-980.
Here's where you may say, likemany policy makers and urban

(27:15):
apologists now, zett, these arejust unintended consequences of
urban renewal.
Tulsa I-244.
Denver I-70.
San Francisco I-280.
Washington DC I-295.
Memphis I-40.
Charlotte Interstate 277.

(27:36):
Birmingham I-20.
I-59.
That's more than 15.
It only takes three years.
I just gave you that times fiveplus a few.
Beginning with the 1949 HousingAct, the federal government
delivered significant fundingfor urban renewal projects,

(27:58):
using the term slum clearance,which is a dog whistle for black
residential neighborhoodslisten up, kids.
They paved the way literallyfor commercial projects and
public facilities.
This is where eminent domainearns its name.
Black neighborhoods weretargeted to make way for new
interstates, primarily designedto carry white suburban

(28:21):
commuters into the city.
Feeling the next severaldecades of incredible suburban
expansion in nearly alldirections, the many interstates
and massive interchanges thatfollow separated white and black
communities in Atlanta andaccelerated the flow of white
Atlantis into the suburbs.
In Atlanta, at least 4,000families 4,000, were displaced

(28:45):
under this act.
Nine out of ten were black.
This is actually a conservativecount.
I want to say all of them, butmy grandfather taught me to
never say all or every in anyconversation that matters, so
I'll stick with the givenstatistics.
West End, butler Street,bedford Pine, buttermilk Bottoms
, summer Hill all streets knownto Old Atlanta shout out were

(29:08):
included, not to mention thehistoric, iconic Auburn Avenue.
And the thing about a highwayis it's not like you can just
hop across it.
There's only certain pointsthat you can get through to the
other side of the neighborhood.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
So you can look at I-20, right, grand Park was
called the Grand Park.
You mentioned Summer Hill, downby the stadium, right?
All these used to be unifiedneighborhoods that were
segregated by highways.
So now let's say you had a busline on one side of the highway.
Well, the people from the otherside can't get there, because

(29:43):
then we think about how long thespans are between underpasses,
under highways.
So there's that effect, you know, dividing the city, making it
less walkable, making it lessbikeable, which also reduces
access.
Because we talked about thisalready, you need to be able to
get to where the bus line is.

(30:04):
Like the bus is not going tocome to your front door usually,
right, you have to travel somedistance of time.
Now, if you have highways oryou know big, you know four,
five, six lane roads that youhave to cross.
You have to get to where thebus line is.
And then you have to get to theroads that you have to cross
and play frog or with all thesepeople who are angry, sitting in
traffic, running lights becauseyou know they're late, it

(30:26):
definitely has an effect.
The walkability of yourneighborhood is definitely going
to impact public transitutilization because you have to
get from public transit to yourhouse.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
In this country, it seems that highways were placed
to create convenience for somegroups at the expense of others.
Many of you interstate highwaysas money meant to the American
racist past, similar to theConfederate statues that we see
all around.
This can not quickly be takendown, because they underpin the
automobile-orientedtransportation system.

(30:56):
And this is not to mention thehealth consequences of high
asthma rates, heart disease,mental health risks and noise
pollution that comes withhighways, increased risk of
premature death, neighborhoodinstability and community trauma
.
It was seen to us that everytime that we drive on these
highways, it's worth rememberingwhat it took to get them there

(31:21):
and the people who were affected.
And this is where we divide andconquer as we talk about

(32:04):
solutions to these challengesthat we have discussed in this
episode.
In a case like Atlanta, is thegenie out the bottle?
What's the first step intransforming that into a place
that relies more on?

Speaker 1 (32:19):
public transit.
You have to force housingdensity where transit already
exists.
So it's not about building outthe transit to go further out.
Where is it working already?
Let's improve that.
So there are some people thatare using it and some people
that aren't.

(32:39):
These neighborhoods, all theseneighborhoods here, very
accessible to transit.
Some of these people also workdowntown midtown.
You know Buckhead, that'saccessible by train.
They're just not sort offamiliar with doing that and so
it's, you know, back to thisculture thing where we put
influence on each other, yousort of a peer pressure kind of

(32:59):
thing.
Like I'm doing it, hey, try it,you try it.
You're riding, like, oh, I hada chat with my buddy, I met this
person on the train or whatever, and it's, you know, person by
person.
And that's how it has to be,this slow evolution.
What can we do from a publicpolicy standpoint?
Force people to build moredense developments where that
transit already exists.

(33:20):
We have the backbone here inAtlanta, right, we have, you
know, the Marta Line.
We don't have to expand it,just utilize what's there for
the benefits that it can provide.
When I was an advocacy, thiswas part of my soapbox.
It's like let's be advocatesthat are promoting things that
already work.
Let's point those out.
Let's get people to use thosemore, as opposed to oh, this is

(33:41):
bad, and this is bad, and thisis bad and this is why it
doesn't work.
Let's promote the positive.
Use it for where you can.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I'm sorry, I don't make cuts for that.
You said something aboutexpansion.
I've always heard throughout mylife.
You know Marta needs to expandaccess to certain areas.
But I also wonder is expansionan asset or is optimization an
asset?

Speaker 1 (33:57):
I think you spoke to that a little bit today.
It's definitely optimization.
Listen, if we had unlimitedfunds, yeah, let's build it
everywhere.
But we don't.
We have you know X amount ofdollars that's got to be spread
out over the whole city.
So if we could improve what wehave instead of?
You know, all the politiciansare always everywhere, not just

(34:17):
Atlanta.
This is just how it works,right.
They want to bring the blingfactor to themselves, and so we
do new things you ribboncuttings and shoveling the
ground and all that kind ofstuff because it's sexy, it's
exciting, it gets people tonotice.
Nobody notices that we fixedthe station or we put more trash
cans out so it's cleaner, or weput more police force out there
so it's safer, right?

(34:38):
These things are hardly noticed.
What's noticed are the bigthings.
So you know, if you have acertain size operations budget
but you build out the system togo to the suburbs, where it's
not terribly efficient, nowyou've got to support that and
so you're spreading youroperations dollars thin.
So you know your question.
The direct answer is in myopinion it's just my opinion you

(35:02):
have to take the assets thatyou have, optimize those and let
it grow naturally from there.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Can you discuss any specific strategies being
employed to increase radicypamong those who prefer cars?

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Sure, none of these are going to be popular.
Reduce parking availabilityright.
Increase the cost of parking.
Use those costs that funding toincrease transportation right.
Nobody really wants to do that.
But if I mean, just put youknow, anybody can think about

(35:42):
this, like if I'm goingsomewhere and I have to go there
and there's no parking, I'mgoing to find some other way,
you know, to get there.
Like people use the transitsystem to go to the, you know,
atlanta United Games or theFalcons Games or basketball
games.
Why?
Because it takes you rightthere and you don't have to
worry about parking.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Right.
I remember when I was young andmy granddad used to take us to
the Falcons game, we were on thewater.
We were on the park at thewater station and ride you know
the train to.
In fact, that was the only timeI would call a ride in the
water in my life.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
And you're not the only one.
We have lots and lots of peoplethat do that.
We see it all the time.
You know Taylor Swift concert,beyonce concert, you know
basketball, soccer.
All these things people do.
Just like you said, they onlyride for that, but they're not
going to do it, you know, forother purposes.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
As we talk, I just think how much of the city of
Atlanta have I been robbed ofbecause I have been in a car
most of my life going to afuneral.
You know, and you know just,the Atlanta formula.
I've been born and raised inAtlanta, but it's certain
aspects of Atlanta that I'mmissing.
I don't have missed out on,because you know, this culture.
I've been brought up in drivingeverywhere.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, I mean, when you drive, you don't notice all
this stuff around you, right.
Get on a bicycle, you noticemore.
When you walk, you notice evenmore, right.
So I think that's a really niceway of putting it.
Like, what have you been robbedof by this car culture that you
think and everyone tells you isso great and it gives you all
this freedom because you can goall these places whenever you
want.

(37:20):
But I think it's a bit of amisnomer, right, like what
happens when everybody wants togo somewhere at the same time.
Like, think back to I think itwas 2015,.
We had the snowmageddon thing.
Oh yeah, everyone tried toleave work.
at the same exact time you talkto me about freedom of movement.
There Nobody could go anywhere.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
It's two o'clock 10 hours.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, they spent the night in the car, right, Because
everybody tried to leave atonce.
Now we had a transit system.
We could have gotten everybodyto where they needed to go If
people would have stayed off theroads, rode the buses, rode the
trains what does adequatefederal and local public transit
funding look like for Mara orany other?

(38:06):
big city, us?
That's a really good question.
I don't know that I've actuallyheard that question asked
before.
It's always we need more, weneed more.
But so I was thinking aboutthis a little bit and I think
you have to start thinking aboutthe people first.
Right, there are people thatmove the trains and move the

(38:29):
buses.
So, if you're talking aboutadequate funding, there's a
shortage of those operators.
I don't know if you've beenreading about this, but, like
every transit agency I just gotback from a conference is having
these kinds of issues withoperators and staffing.
Pay them more money, right?
So that's a start.
Is you have some amount oftransit that you want to provide

(38:53):
?
You've got to have the fundingto pay the people, because if
you don't, they're going to gowork at UPS.
There are people you mentioned,you know, koi Dumas.
He's been retired after 51years.
He loved his job, right.
But getting started in a uniontype environment, you have to

(39:16):
sort of pay your dues, and so bythe time you get to where
you're making good money andhaving the good routes, it's
tough, and so we need to provideif, whatever service we're
providing, you've got to makesure that you can pay the people
a living wage.
That's where it starts.
See, whatever footprint youwant to cover, you want to make

(39:41):
sure that you can run aneffective service with headways
that are reasonable, right?
So we talked about this alittle while ago.
If you have a train comingevery hour or a bus coming every
hour, it's really tough, right?
So if you're going to have aroute, let's make sure that it

(40:01):
has those headways that areshort enough that's easy for
people to use, right?
So you're helping the peoplewho already need it, but you're
also attracting more people.
And, again, if you attract morepeople, we can have a little
bit more money.
We can improve the service.
So I don't think there'snecessarily an answer of, hey,
you know, we need X amount ofdollars, but it's making sure

(40:24):
that the funding that exists cancover those kinds of things and
not that we're scraping by andjust trying to hire just anybody
because they're just not goingto make it very long.
Right?
It's the same thing with anypublic service.
You look at teachers.
It's the same problem.
If you pay the teachers more,you're going to get better
teachers, right?
You're going to have teachersand not just better teachers.

(40:47):
Maybe I'm saying that wrong.
It's teachers who aren't goingto have to worry about some of
the other things and they canfocus more on their job.
Right, if you have a kid thatyou're trying to feed or you
need taken care of and you don'tget paid enough money to have
that kid taken care of, that's aworry that you have right.
So this isn't just busoperators or just teachers.

(41:08):
This is just like anybody.
It's just a common sense thing.
So I think a lot of the answerin this funding thing is like
let's start with the people,let's take care of the people.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
The man known as Mr Martyr.
Coy Dumas is a walking Atlantaencyclopedia Coming from
Adamsville Swatts.
He knows the roads like theback of his hand and is as quick
to deliver a pleasant word ashe is to handle any unpleasant
business to come his way.
Recently retired after 51 years51 of driving over 2 million

(41:43):
miles with no accident, 2million and thousands of
passengers around he adores hiswife, teresa, to whom he's been
married to for 46 years,crediting her mightily for his
success throughout the years.
They are both grace personified.
When I read about him, I knew Ihad to meet this guy and when I

(42:05):
finally did, he was without adoubt better than advertised.
I met with him at the Martyrstation on Perry Boulevard and
he proceeded to give metremendous gain.
So now let's multiply the vibeswith Coy Dumas.
Do you feel like a celebrity?

Speaker 5 (42:24):
You know, my wife and I talk about that from time to
time and we try to stay humble.
But most people ask me that andthey say they tell me that I'm
a celebrity.
Just last week I called TripleA to take a look at my truck and

(42:44):
the gentleman.
When he came out I met him downand I spoke to him.
I said it may have been a weekand a half ago and I said good
morning and happy New Year toyou.
He spoke to me and he said Iknow you.
I know you're the man that did51 years with Marta.
I said yes, sir, and he was soexcited that I felt special.
My wife came down a couple ofminutes later.

(43:05):
She tried to figure out whatwas going on and then he told me
.
He said I know your husband,I'm going to tell my grandmother
.
And when he said he was goingto tell grandma I did not feel
offended because she probablyhad more experience riding with
me than he would have.
But you hear me talk a lot aboutwhat my granddad had told us
that's coming up.

(43:25):
He always said, son, whateveryou do, be the best at what you
do, regardless of what it is.
Now you hear people say that alot.
You know it's more of a clichethan anything, but this is
something that I was taughtcoming up, and my brother and my
sister was also.
My mom had that kind of highinsight, as whatever you do be

(43:47):
the best is what you're going to, and my grandmother wanted to
tell you that mama days she wasa mess.
Now that's my dad's mom, but mymom dad.
We call him daddy Harvey Mosessenior.
They called him Jake.
He worked for the railroad 41years.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
So growing up you were familiar with trains and
the railroad industry.

Speaker 5 (44:11):
Some what?
Yeah, because we would take atrip up to New York or Florida
where they had family members at, and of course we could ride
the train for free because heworked with them.
But he would my job as a youngkid.
He worked the midnight shift.
I remember being seven, six orseven years old, waking my

(44:32):
granddad up to get him readyabout nine, 30, 10 o'clock at
night, to make sure he atebefore he went to work and to
make sure he was quite awake aswell.
And that was something I did upfor quite a few years, off and
on, and I had much respect forthis man.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Right on, talk about your childhood.
So you grew up in Atlanta.
What part of Atlanta?

Speaker 5 (44:54):
Well, I grew up in Atlanta, adamsville, the West
Side, griffin Office, simpson,oliver Street and College.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
Park.
You grew up in Atlanta.
Adamsville I grew up in Cascadevery similar areas.
Can you talk about Atlanta aswhen you were a child and the
changes you've seen in the cityover the years?

Speaker 5 (45:15):
Oh man, I don't mind telling my age, but I might tell
it more than that by saying so.
But I've been blessed to see alot of changes in this.
I remember when I starteddriving the line of transit we
had what we called the 200 buses, the 400s and the 500s and the
600s those are the series thatwas on 1953.
The line of transit had thatunit.

(45:37):
They started in 1953, 1954 to1974, and they retired it.
The bus that's a replica of theone Ms Park refused to stand up
in.
Normally when Dr Mollif's Kingbirthday they bring that bus out
and they bring the otherantique out of me, because I was
the only one still here thatwas blessed to drive a bus

(45:59):
similar to that for over twoyears.
Off and on.
Who led you to it?
My uncle.
I was managing a shoe store.
I guess back then it was Ashwayand Martin Luther King.
It wasn't the White HarborStreet, ashway and Martin Luther
King.
My uncle, he's about eightyears older than me.

(46:19):
We kind of grew up in more likea big problem.
I can tell my aunt that's 10years old and so she won't like
a big sister to me.
I've always been mature for myage.
He would come by the shoe storeand it'd be about 10, 30, 11
o'clock.
I said I thought you was atwork.
He said, yeah, I've been atwork.
What you off already?
He said now I have what we calla two-timer.

(46:41):
I said a two-timer, what's atwo-timer?
He went to work at five thatmorning and got off at about
9.30, 9.45.
He had a three-hour break andhe was going to go back about
one or something.
He explained to me a two-timer.
He wouldn't come every day, hewould come maybe a couple of
times a week and I said, well, Imight be interested in that.

(47:03):
Originally, when I was atWashington High, the Atlanta
Transit came by.
I was getting stuck looking forstudents to help clean the
buses.
I was supposed to have been inthat group but it never did
evolve and to have full circle,God's grace he brought me back.
My uncle came in.
I said I thought a couple ofthings about it.
I said I think I would do that.
So initially, when I took thefirst test, I was bored of lying

(47:27):
for being old enough.
So I thought I said, well, I'llput in for a hostel.
Because he explained me thedifference.
The hostels are the ones thatclean the buses and service the
bus and I knew I took a lot oftests.
But I took a test and Mr Deanwas going to.
He was doing my final interview.
But God blessed me before thatfinal interview that I saw a

(47:49):
couple of guys came out of highschool a couple of years before
me.
We talked for a few minutes andI'm always looking around and
paying attention to what's goingon.
I noticed the paperwork theyhad was a different color from
mine.
So when they went on into thetesting area I asked the
receptionist.
I said the gentleman I wasspeaking to.
I noticed that paperwork was adifferent color.

(48:10):
I told her what color.
She said they'd taken the testfor operations.
So when they called me in formy final interview they told me
they were going to hire me as ajunior's apprentice at
maintenance and I don't forget.
I told Mr Dean.
I said well, how long would itbe before I could transfer it to
operations, which is drivingthe bus?
He gave me a funny look andsaid it'd be six months before

(48:36):
we talked to you about it.
My mind said at 21, 22 yearsold, is he talking about two
years Now?
I would have had to senioritywith the company but not in
operations.
So I told him I wanted to takethe test for operations.
So he gave me that look threetimes uglier than what it was
the first time.
And he said if you don't passthat test, you don't get to eat

(48:58):
a job.
And I never forgot that 52years later.
And what I told him?
I said you got the right one.
That's back to what mygrandfather told me.
Yeah, I told him you got theright one.
He looked I took the test.
My God's grace, here I am.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
When you started driving for Marta, did you
imagine, 51 years down the line,that we'll be?
Not necessarily we'll besitting this moment now, but
that you will be at this placewhere you're being celebrated
for your unblemished drivingrecord, which we'll get to
shortly, because I am curious toknow how you drove two million
plus miles without accident.

(49:35):
We'll talk about it later.
Did you sit out to be like thebest driver that you can be?

Speaker 5 (49:42):
I didn't set out to do 50 years.
I set out to be the best of thebest.
I actually it could even sharesomething with you when I
started with Lionel Transit, andwhat they would tell us is that
the one that did not miss anydays of training back during
that time we were only doing 30or 31 days of training, not half

(50:03):
as long as it is now.
But they said the ones thatdidn't miss any training would
get their senior numbers, getseniority.
It was myself and one othergentleman out of the 18 of us,
and I was the youngest one inthe class Out of the 18 of us
that did not miss a day.
Of course they didn't do it theway they said they would, but
that's all right.
I pulled a number which was 1480and a guy knocked it out of my

(50:25):
hand.
He was older than I was andI've always been mature for my
age, so I don't go through drama.
You know I figured whatever itis, it's what I got a plan for.
So when he knocked that numberout of my hand which was 1480, I
pulled 1483.
That was my after my cadetnumber.
That was my first operatornumber.
1480 has been gone for 50 years.

(50:49):
Let's say I should have beengone for 49 years.
1483 is number one cause.
It's all by God's grace.
The justice show how thingswork.
But to back up to the otherpart of the question, when we
graduated I told my classmates Iwas gonna be number one one day
.
I had no idea how true it wasgonna be.

(51:12):
I've been blessed to be numberone almost 12 years long as
anyone ever to have been atnumber one stage.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
What kind of spirit do you have to put in you to be
successful?
Like not just a public transitworker, but just a public
service?
Like what kind of spirit yougotta have to be the?

Speaker 5 (51:29):
best service, the spirit I would say.
First of all you got to behumble, you got to like what you
do, you got to put yourself ina certain mindset and realize,
especially in transportation, asa frontline troop and operator,
I have to keep the mindset thatpeople count on me.

(51:54):
We got a bigger percentage, soquite a few percentage of people
that ride the publictransportation that really don't
have to.
They may have a couple ofvehicles and they choose to or
that more convenient for you,but more so than not, most of
the people that ride the systemneeds the system.
So you have to keep thatmindset.
People count on us to get themto the doctor, to the grocery

(52:19):
store, to work, to school, tohouse, to appointments, and I
can say we carry the mostvaluable cargo in this human
life.
And this is something that Icannot say often enough because
I have seen accidents.
I've been blessed not to havean accident and in the whole my

(52:42):
tenure that was my fault.
Now I've had people hit me, butI've also been blessed to react
in a certain manner that savedpeople lives and saved mine.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
How is your hand that coordinates?

Speaker 5 (52:56):
I played a little football.
I coached football and baseball.
My brother played, you name it,we played it.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
I've been in the marsh out since I was six years
old Can you drive as much as youdo to not have an accident.
That's obviously a guy'sgreatest, but it's also a lot of
skill on your part too.

Speaker 5 (53:13):
Well, I appreciate that it takes skill.
When the new class is coming,I'm blessed to speak to them
while they steal cadets, and Ialways tell everybody the same
thing, because that's why I feelabout it.
So, welcome to the family,welcome to the best of the best.

(53:34):
And they look at me.
I said that's not beingarrogant, that's being real with
you Because yes, because you todo this and do what we do on a
daily basis, you got to be thebest of the best.
We have people lives in ourhands each and every day.
You know I spoke earlier aboutI've been blessed to have
perfect attendance most of mytenure here.
There have been times I won100%, but I would always make

(54:00):
sure I was in control and if Ithought I was in a situation
where I was too weak to do myjob and do it safely, I wouldn't
do it, I wouldn't show up.
But I've been blessed that hegave me that inner spirit to
adjust the situation accordingto the old military term Just

(54:23):
act according to the situationand adjust it as it goes.
So, but a lot of heads I thinkhad to do with the Marchards and
the sports that we play comingup.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
You mentioned your wife many times and I said I got
to say when I first reached outto you, your wife's voice was
the first voice I heard and Iimmediately sensed your
togetherness, your closeness,talk about your marriage.
What was your wife meaning?

Speaker 5 (54:47):
My wife's name is Teresa Maria Dumas.
She's not on my right, in myleft hand, she's my soul.
I always refer to her as myQueen of Queens.
Everybody at Mata knows thathow I refer to her, because
that's what she is.
As long as we've been together46 years she gets up with me

(55:10):
when I was working every morningtwo, two-thirty in the morning,
gets my lunch and my breakfastready.
I don't eat breakfast early inthe morning but she's gonna make
sure my coffee on my tea,whatever she allowed me to drink
that day.
Or she said I was drinking toomuch coffee so she cut some of
the back of the tea so I canhave coffee maybe a couple of
days a week.
But she would get up and fix my, prepare me and help me get out

(55:34):
to work each and every day andshe still had to go to work
herself late on.
The routine is when I get towork I let her know I made it
and vice versa.
You just don't find people withthat kind of spirit and that
kind of soul every day.
We made an agreement that wewere gonna always have each

(55:57):
other six Now.
I'm not the best person in theworld and if it up with me.
She's real special, but Istrive on taking care of my own.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
From reminiscing on dope ancestral legacies of the
poor man Porter to learningabout transportation solutions,
to talking to a real city legend, this episode has been fun.
Every time I do a deep diveinto Atlanta, whether through
reading or interviewing people,I come away amazed at the level
of resilience, soul and craftthat people here display.

(56:28):
So here's the deal A great cityhas to provide viable choices
for all of its striving citizensand help for its citizens who
is unable to help themselves.
At this point in my life, I am,admittedly, a suburban night
Currently on the outskirts, andI love it here.
For me, my car is perfectlysuitable.

(56:49):
I have a whole family and wehave loved ones in the city.
Relying on public transit on thedaily isn't attractive for me,
but parking is a pain and when Ilook over to see other drivers
I'm often seeing phone in hand,which does not bode well for the
public safety.
And there is copious evidencethat suggests that riding in a

(57:11):
train or bus is far safer thanin a sedan or SUV.
So I understand the need for anoptimized public transit system
.
I understand why some wouldlike none other than to ditch
their ride and hop on a rail orbus, and the real is.
Atlanta is limited in itsoptions for one to pursue that
route.
An adequate public transit is aliability for any city seeking

(57:34):
to be the best it can be.
But one thing we didn't touchon much in this episode that
affects how we perceive publictransit is crime.
If you haven't heard, atlantahas been grappling with that
perception for a couple ofgenerations now, but recent
statistics indicate it is on itsway down.
At least murders are.
Is this true?

(57:55):
Anecdotally?
Perhaps the next time we meetwe'll address that.
Until then, y'all stay fine.
I truly appreciate the guests onthis show, dr Chris Vitakovsky
and the heroic Koy Dumis, whoare both so gracious with their
time.
Many thanks to Maydale, ray andWynn on the track for lacing us

(58:17):
with the SuperSonics One time.
For Culture Collective for therobust brand support To the many
sources I've relied upon DarrenGivens of Thread ATL, dan
Emmerglock, smart Growth,atlanta Magazine.
The scholarship is set.
And to you, supporters andpartakers of this podcast, keep
being amazing and, as always, doeverything you can to prohibit

(58:42):
yourself from being a hater.
All love y'all Until next time,emtionorg.
That's it, thank you.

(59:19):
Bye you.