June 1, 2024 • 44 mins
What if breaking a legendary sports record brought not just fame, but also unimaginable pain and regret? Join Zettler IV and Zettler V as they delve into the life and legacy of baseball legend Hank Aaron, focusing on the events surrounding his record-breaking 715th home run and the subsequent impacts.
Celebrating the 50th anniversary of Aaron's historic home run, they reflect on the Hammer's enduring legacy and the scars that remained long after his playing career.
The narrative covers Aaron's unwavering honesty, his weariness after achieving the milestone, and his complex feelings about surpassing Babe Ruth's home run record due to the intense scrutiny, death threats, and racial challenges he faced.
With insights from biographical accounts by journalists Howard Bryant and Terence Moore, as well as from Aaron's own autobiography, the guys shed light on the man behind the numbers, exploring the complexities of his life post-record.
It also reflects on Aaron's contributions to the game, his struggles with media and fans, and the lack of support from his own home crowd. The discussion honors Aaron's his lasting impact on baseball while highlighting his intense focus and the racial obstacles he overcame.
Drawing parallels to the unyielding work ethic of icons like Edwin Land, Jay-Z, Kobe Bryant, Rakim, DMX and Charlie Munger, this episode underscores Aaron's unyielding resilience starting as a child in segregated Mobile's hotbed baseball culture into his transformation into the man who decided upon his arrival in Atlanta in 1966, that he was uniquely suited to becoming the all-time home run champion.
Through the lens of these celebrated figures, the Atlanta natives highlight the power of planned perseverance, his often-overlooked baseball mind and relentless dedication in achieving greatness.
Lastly, they connect the dots between Ted Turner's media empire and Hank Aaron's invaluable contributions to the Atlanta Braves' championship run in the 1990s, as well as discuss MLB's recent decision to integrate Negro League statistics into its records.
This episode is a true tribute to the best hitter Major League Baseball has seen. A hero to legions, the late Henry Aaron has a legacy that was shaped by his extraordinary talent and the societal and racial challenges he couldn't seem to escape.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zettler IV (00:01):
It was April 8th 1974.
The game was stopped for 11minutes and Henry was too weary
to be eloquent.
Honesty without flourish wasall he could offer.
There was no joy contained inhis drained face, no desire to
bask in his own afterglow.
His words were not reflectiveor introspective or prescient,
(00:23):
nor, upon reflecting upon thisevening, would they ever be.
I just thank God.
Henry said that it's all overwith.
For the next 35 years, HenryAaron would not waver from this
position.
That excerpt was from a bookcalled the Last Hero A Life of
(00:44):
Henry Aaron, a biographicalaccount by journalist Howard
Bryant, published around 2010.
I was talking with my10-year-old son the other day
about the career of the HammerHank Aaron.
It reminded me of a time I wentto see him at a conference at
the Rialto by Georgia StateUniversity.
See him at a conference at theRialto by Georgia State
(01:06):
University.
He was asked how he felt aboutsurpassing 714 home runs, a
question he'd been askedcountless times over the past
three decades.
His answer bucked my eyes.
If I had to do it all overagain, I don't know if I would
have.
It was astonishing, Arguablythe most hallowed record in
(01:31):
professional sports, and hewasn't even sure it was worth it
.
The death threats, thedisrespect, the pressure, the
constant unnecessary scrutiny.
He endured all of it just toplay a game he set out to master
ever since he was a boy inMobile, Alabama.
On that stage that day, however, it seemed as if he still
(01:54):
wanted to be free of that burden.
I still remember thedisappointment from his voice as
the best hitter in Major LeagueBaseball history lamented about
one of the worst periods of hislife.
Noting the 50-year anniversaryof Aaron's 715th home run, I
(02:17):
feel inspired to create a periodpiece.
The emphasis starts with themoment he touched home plate,
making him the top home runhitter in Major League Baseball
history, a record later brokenby Bear Buns and it ends with
the conclusion of thattumultuous season and him
spending the next four-plusdecades picking up the pieces.
(02:39):
Hank Aaron was traded at theend of that season to Milwaukee.
Hank Aaron was traded at theend of that season to Milwaukee
after never being offered a newcontract or role in the
managerial or front office bythe only franchise he had ever
played for.
In his final Atlanta Bravesat-bat at Fulton County Stadium,
(03:00):
he poetically hit a home run.
After crossing home plate, hekept running into the dugout,
into the tunnel, into the lockerroom.
Despite the crowd's calls forhim to come back out, he stayed
in that locker room, tearsstreaming down his face, knowing
(03:22):
, without a doubt, that his timeas a professional baseball
player in Atlanta of old Swatch.
Zettler V (03:45):
Tell you just how we speak.
Don't fold when you from.
Pozone, what number is yourpolice precinct?
We on, yeah, tell you just howwe speak.
Don't fold.
Don't fold when you from.
What number is your policeprecinct?
Don't fold, like All right,quint.
Zettler IV (04:14):
So there are three books that I'm going to use to
guide us through this episodethe one aforementioned, the Last
Hero, a Life of Hearing Aaron,by Howard Bryant, but then two
more.
I'm going to reference Hisautobiography that he wrote I
had a Hammer with Lonnie Willer,and another account written by
(04:35):
Terrence Moore, entitled theReal Hank Aaron Intimate look at
the life and legacy of the homerun king.
And I'm using those three books, quint, for obvious reasons.
Right, they're biographies,which means if you want to get
the scoop on something about asituation on somebody's life,
you need to go to a primarysource or a secondary source.
(04:56):
Who at least knows how to reachprimary sources and those
around the primary source?
So in this case, we know aboutthe wreck, we know about the
record, we know about the deaththreat.
There's been tons of scores ofdocumentaries that are out
talking about this in grislydetail.
I want to focus on that period,right after they hit the home
(05:17):
run Right, and the question Iwant to guide this episode is
what happens after the glory,even decades later?
So that's something he talkedabout too.
He didn't want to be known aswell.
(05:39):
So it's twofold Henry Aaron, thehome run king does have a ring
to it.
He can walk places, he's acelebrity, he's on the late
night shows, he's getting moreendorsements.
The fame, the money aspect ofit I'm sure he enjoys, just like
anybody famous in that positionenjoys.
There are perks for things thatare enjoyed.
(06:02):
But then it obscured a part ofhim that well, he wasn't just a
home run there, number one intotal bases, number one in RBIs,
(06:22):
number one in extra base hits,I believe.
Now he doesn't have the mostdoubles, I think, trish Speaker,
that's Trish Speaker, and youcan't have them all right.
So you have that aspect.
And then the other part ispeople want to act like those
(06:45):
death threats didn't happen.
They did, yeah, and I had ahammer.
The hank aaron story writtenwith lonnie willer.
He puts a few of those in thereand they are as heinous and
reprehensible as you couldimagine.
And the thing is and Hank Aarontalked about these things in his
(07:09):
autobiography that he did notfeel support from the Atlanta
media and fans as much as hethought he should have gotten.
He did reference a couplemoments that he got standing
ovations in his hometown, but healso referenced a few moments
where he was getting heckled byhis own fans, which is crazy.
(07:30):
He would go to other stadiumsand they'll give him ovations
and have 25,000 people there.
He'd come to his home crowd,have 8,000 people there and he
got a few journeys out in thestands just ripping him and
giving him Sally League language.
You know what Sally League is?
The Sally League was the leaguehe played in when he first got
(07:52):
drafted.
It was in Jacksonville.
Baseball players get drafted.
They got to go through a minorleague system.
The Sally League was what itwas called in Florida, I believe
.
It was Class A and he wasgetting all kinds of jiggle boos
and hard ERs thrown at him.
He couldn't eat with his team,he couldn't stay with his team.
He had to arrange differentaccommodations.
He's a professional baseballplayer In the country club for
(08:16):
major league baseball at thetime but couldn't get a meal,
unaccosted and without a senseof psychological distress.
This is what is happening.
This is the time, this is theera that he's in.
All this is happening.
He hits the home run.
So what do you think happensright after his home run?
How do you think hisperformance went?
Maus (08:42):
He goes home, his mother gives him a hug, he hugs up up
his mother and I think for therest of the game he doesn't get
a hit.
I believe, sure, but I think hedoesn't get a hit not just for
the rest of the game.
Zettler IV (08:55):
for the next five game, I believe.
He went one for his next 16thand that one hit was, ironically
, a home run and he struggled.
He hit 200 for the rest of thatmonth.
For the month of June he washitting in the low 200s and even
in July he was hitting in the200s.
He ended up getting voted tothe All-Star team in the middle
(09:17):
of July.
Maus (09:18):
But he was having a poor season compared to then.
Zettler IV (09:23):
At the plate right and he had kicked up this
marathon to catch Ruth and he's40 now right.
So he's powered off adrenaline,he's powered off motivation,
he's powered off the hate mail,he's powered off his own
gumption, his own purpose, andthen, once he reaches the record
(09:45):
, it's just this day, no ma airbeen let out the balloon a
little bit, but there's somethings that happened that season
.
I think it's important tohighlight in this episode,
because I've read about him inthis book and accounts, but it's
not something that's out there.
But he got into it with theatlanta media and they put his
(10:09):
wife in it and they did notoffer him another contract and
they didn't offer him a frontoffice position.
They wanted and they didn'teven give him the courtesy to
offer him the managerialposition when it was available.
Did I just say a whole lot?
Maus (10:31):
No, they didn't.
They basically didn't want topay him.
Well, they didn't want him toget the front office job, or
with the break front office job,or with the brain.
Zettler IV (10:45):
So let me get the front office position in Major
League Baseball.
In 1974, you would have had tobe I don't know, let's see white
and male, because there wasliterally no African American in
a front office role in 1974.
In fact, this was right beforethe free agency period.
(11:09):
It wasn't black people inmanagerial role, black people in
executive role, black scout waspretty much nonexistent.
Only place you saw color atpertained to Major League
Baseball was on the field.
Even those who was on the fieldwere exceptional superstars.
(11:30):
I believe in the 1960s,something like 60% of all the
all-stars were eitherAfrican-American or Latin
American.
So it was this thing that youknow.
Hank Aaron said this, spokeabout this that weren't, you
couldn't be a regular player andblack In the major league.
(11:52):
That makes sense.
So, for example, you can have awhite player who hits 210, 230,
240, 250 and can stick aroundfor 12 years and leave.
Maus (12:02):
If a black person did that , Then they would kick out for
like.
They would get kicked out forlike six years.
Zettler IV (12:08):
Even less than that.
You had to be exceptional.
So while this caused the talentto jump off the page and leap
at you, it also caused theincome opportunities to dwindle,
and so this happened.
So when Hank Aaron was asked ifhe would be the manager by the
(12:30):
media, he initially said no, Iwouldn't want to be the manager,
no, I don't have any interest.
But then he was asked again, orhe thought about it, and he
said you know what?
I think I will, because thereare none.
And being that Jackie Robinsonwas his guy, Jackie Robinson was
his North Star and in a lot ofways, Henry Aaron was a variant
(12:52):
of Jackie Robinson, Kind offinished, or Powerful, more
powerful, jackie Robinson.
Yeah, he turned the lever like180 degrees.
Jackie Robinson came in thefirst, and then it was steadily
more and more.
Harry Aaron represented thebest of what the Negro League
(13:14):
had to offer, and he did it in away that was more impressive,
at least numerically, than anyother player that's ever played
the game from a hittingstandpoint.
So you have all this.
He's saying he would like to beconsidered.
He's not being considered.
The journalist is saying he'sdouble-talking.
(13:36):
He ends up throwing a carton ofstrawberries in one of the
writer's face the writer whodidn't even write the article.
But nevertheless, thatjournalist Frank Hyland, I
believe, was his name.
He was just in the wrong placeat the wrong time.
This is a normally stoic manthrowing cartons of strawberries
in a journalist's face Afternow.
(14:00):
This is important.
This is why it's alwaysimportant to have context.
You know why he threw that cardin his face.
Maus (14:06):
Why.
Zettler IV (14:06):
Because there's an article in the paper with his
wife's picture and under thepicture is a caption entitled
Billy.
This is his wife's name, colontrouble Question mark.
That's a low blow.
Why are you putting his wife inthe article?
(14:27):
And the article is insinuatingthat his wife was putting
notions in his head that hestarted to become more of a
rabble rouser and speaking outagainst MLB and his hiring
practice because his wife wasputting thoughts into his head
as if he wasn't a sentient,intelligent being enough to have
these thoughts on his own.
(14:49):
That's the thing that this duderight here as we talk about this
in the 50th anniversary ofBreaking this Record.
He was an extremely cerebralguy.
There are counts of teammatestalking about how scientific he
was, about his approach to thegame, talking about how
scientific he was, about hisapproach to the game.
(15:10):
He wasn't just this magicalNegro who was a mutant and just
had this natural gift andability.
Of course, he had natural gifts, no more than you and I may
have natural gifts and abilitiesin reading, empathizing with
people or what have you, but heworked at it.
Maus (15:25):
He had talent and he worked for it listen, you don't.
Zettler IV (15:29):
You don't become a goat figure by accident you have
to work for it.
And, but not just work.
You got to have your ownpersonal curriculum.
Work like you got to be workingwithout permission reminds me
of a lot of names come to mind,but I was recently reading about
Edwin Land.
Edwin Land is the founder ofthe Polaroid.
(15:49):
You know what a Polaroid is?
Maus (15:52):
No, what's a Polaroid so?
Zettler IV (15:52):
there was once upon a time, not too long ago.
So it was a camera and when youpress the button to the camera
a picture would come out slidingout, and then you give it about
10 seconds or so well, 30 gothow long it was and a full
picture would emerge.
That was revolutionary butedward land.
(16:15):
He created that and a whole anda host of other inventions.
He was a scientist, it was atinkerer, he was innovative.
But it talks about how, when hewent to Harvard, dropped out,
he said, went to the New YorkPublic Library and read
everything there was to readabout life.
Maus (16:32):
When did he make it?
Zettler IV (16:37):
That came after World War II.
I don't know, off the top of myhead.
So, ok, I'll give you areference point.
So, college 17.
Polaroid wasn't created untilhis late 30s, I believe.
So he's been toiling in theindustry for years, a couple
decades, up to the point wherehe created Polaroid, which is
another lesson man that EdwinLand.
(16:58):
His curriculum wasn't what hedid.
You're not going to study andfind in school.
You know what I mean.
You're going to have to in yourfield, in your area, in your
realm.
You're going to have to work inways that can't be told to you.
All you can do is just work,reading every book in the
(17:22):
library on life, just likewaking Cracker Dunn and working
on basketball four times a day,like Kobe Bryant talks about in
Mamba Mentality.
Charlie Munger, the lateCharlie Munger, talks about how
he never has taken any course inchemistry, economics,
psychology or business.
He talks about the importanceof being self-taught.
Maus (17:42):
Every grad as work and have their own curriculum job.
Zettler IV (18:00):
From what I've read, all indications go toward the
lunacy of working, of a workethic being central to success.
Jay-z Rakim DM.
All my friends read DMSautobiography the other day Very
good.
Maus (18:15):
I read it.
Zettler IV (18:17):
Yeah, yeah.
He talks about how much he usedto write.
He was incarcerated a lot andthat's when he got his best
writing in, and the fact thatyou know he treated
incarceration as his reset andjust wrote it from sunup sundown
filled rings of notebook.
Rakim talked about writing from10 am to 12 midnight every day
(18:39):
for a whole summer when he was Idon't know young I don't know
how young, maybe teenager Jay-Z,same thing.
It's just that kind of thing,that pattern you just can
completely see.
So they treat Hank like he justwas, this natural wunderkind
that didn't treat it like ahuman who was magnificently
(19:02):
blessed with the talent who workassiduously at developing.
That's one thing I really don'twant you to overlook.
Maus (19:14):
He has several in his autobiography.
He talks about his bottle capto his broom.
Zettler IV (19:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he can make his own baseballs
with makeshift material, thingsof that nature.
It's not about the technologyand the tools, as much as what's
in you and your gift and yourability and just your
willingness to get after itwithout asking for permission.
(19:43):
That's a tremendous takeawayfrom his story.
But anyway, so yeah, wife, inthe paper he loses it.
He doesn't being disrespectedabout not being considerate for
his man, about not having a mindof his own, about having his
(20:03):
wife being put in the middle ofsomething completely out of
bound.
It's, by the way, anotheruntold, very little known story.
When Hank Aaron first got toAtlanta, when the Atlanta Braves
moved in from Milwaukee in 1966, there was an incident between
his then wife at the time andtried to get into the game, but
(20:24):
apparently the security guardwas new or didn't know or
whatever.
He wouldn't let her in andtried to get through, wouldn't
let her in.
Next thing, she's getting a gunpulled out on her and she's
getting arrested and charged.
This is the wife of the bestplayer in the league in his home
city Home stadium, with hiswife getting a gun pulled out to
(20:48):
him and arrested.
So this little stuff that hedid, that's not even little.
This is the stuff that he'sdealing with.
Atlanta is in this campaign andit's important to understand
the role of Atlanta in thisprocess of Henry Aaron breaking
this record.
Maus (21:06):
I heard the story where Atlanta was hot and humid, which
means the ball stays in the airfor longer, which helped Hank
Aaron Long know that he couldhit more home runs because the
humid air makes it stick in theair for longer.
Zettler IV (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's a story that you're talking about
how he took his first battingpractice when he first got to
Atlanta-Fortin County Stadiumand he noticed then, like you
said, the ball carried here.
And that's when he made aconscious choice in his career
to shift from being a hitspredominant person to a home run
(21:49):
predominant person.
And he did that by crowding theplate a little more and looking
for pitch to pull.
And what makes that remarkableis that his batting average it
wasn't as high as it was, but hestill managed to hit 300.
In most of his years in Atlantaand I think his last year here
(22:13):
he hit like 260s, which isremarkable considering that he
hit in the 200s for the firstthree months after breaking Babe
Ruth's record, which means hehad to go on a tear to get an
average of 260.
But then I think he hit 260s,like in his average of 260.
But then I think he hit 260,like in his third year here, but
other than that he hit 300.
Another ridiculous show of hisability to swear at baseball.
(22:34):
But yeah, so Atlanta provided anecessary catalyst for him to
be able to charge Babe Ruth'srecord, because when they first
moved here people were nottalking about his name, it was
Willie.
It was Willie.
He had made that decision, andthat's another thing, a theme in
(22:55):
his career.
He planned, it was all purpose,everything he set out to do.
It wasn't through ahappenstance, it was through
deliberation, constitution, andthese are the things that I
often overlook when we talkabout Henry Aaron the GOAT.
So all this is happening, he'sstruggling, wife getting
(23:24):
disrespected, he gettingdisrespected and he's not even
being offered a contract.
His contract was coming to aclose and the Braves are, in
subtle ways, making it clearthat they don't want him around
anymore.
And so three biographies that Ireferenced.
They have different takes onthem, but I'm going to defer
(23:47):
with the real Hank Aaron, theintimate look at the life and
legacy of the home run king byTerence Moore, because he
actually spent a lot of timetalking to Hank Aaron about his
post-Braves career and what wasactually going on.
And, according to Moore, henrywanted to retire after that
season.
If they had given him afront-offer position at the
(24:10):
close of the season, he wouldretire as a Brave and went there
, but they would not do that.
Maus (24:16):
Dad, I have a question Did he ask for a position or did
they just he said he wanted it,but he didn't ask for it, but
they didn't give it to him.
Or did he ask for it?
Zettler IV (24:29):
These were ongoing conversations.
Yeah, him and hisrepresentation made it clear
that they wanted a front officeposition and what they want to
offer and, in fact, BartholomewBray's owner at the time.
He expressed regret fortreating Hank like that on his
way out the door.
He didn't have the leadershipor the gumption to you know what
(24:52):
.
Let's go ahead and just finishthe job that Atlanta is boosting
and go ahead and put this manin the front office position,
where he deserves, because he isan excellent baseball mind and
he is the greatest athlete thatAtlanta professional sports has
ever had and he did just breakthe top record of sports and he
is a cool personality dad, Ihave a question.
Maus (25:14):
I heard you once talk about Hank Aaron's brother.
Zettler IV (25:16):
They didn't offer me no, no, great point, they did
not.
So Tommy Aaron was coaching inthe minor leagues at the time
that Hank was setting a recordand he was doing well.
And Hank was like, hey, if itain't me, consider him, he's
doing well, baseball guy,brother Aaron's no baseball.
And they told Henry.
(25:38):
They said, nah, he's doing sucha good job in the minor league.
We need him to stay focused onthat.
Maus (25:44):
What.
Zettler IV (25:45):
And yeah, that's what he said too, because why
would you put the welfare of aminor league team over the major
league team that's bringing inmillions of dollars for you?
That absolutely makes no sense.
It's all just little stuff.
That is mind games.
You insult my intelligence andall right, I think I'm about
done with atlanta anywhere.
So this is stuff that washappening in the aftermath of
(26:09):
7-15.
So there's another key piece ofHank Aaron's life, too that
deserves discussion when he didget his front office role.
So he was traded from theBraves to the Milwaukee Brewers,
owned by Bud Selig, and heplayed his last two years out
(26:30):
for them.
And then he was brought backinto Atlanta by Ted Turner, whom
I'll probably discuss at somepoint on this show, because he
is a figure that you can'treally talk about.
The making of modern Atlantawithout talking about Ted Turner
is not only pivotal in thecable news industry, but he's
(26:51):
critical in Hank Aaron's returnto Atlanta, which played a role
in Debray's future success inthe 90s.
Maus (27:01):
I have a question for Ted Turner.
I know we're going to get tothis later in the episode, but
give me a little small way, ted.
Zettler IV (27:10):
Turner is a cable magnate who inherited a
billboard business from hisfather.
His father had created asuccessful billboards business
and Ted Turner was raised underhis father's watchful and
disciplined eye, and you knowhis dad, terry Turner, was the
heir apparent.
His dad ends up committingsuicide and stress through
(27:37):
business.
I imagine it was a certainamount of stress personally as
well.
That I'm not sure of.
That I'm not sure of.
I look forward to finding thatout.
But I just know the gist of itis that Ted Turner was in his
early 20s when his dad committedsuicide and that left Ted
Turner to pick up pieces.
But think about it is TedTurner made a name for himself
(28:00):
by going to bat against one ofhis dad's businessmen.
So apparently his dad hassigned a business deal that was
bad for the company and dad dies.
And Ted says, hey, I'm lookingat these numbers.
Talking to the businessmanwhose dad signed a business deal
with, he said I'm looking atthis and this ain't right.
He clearly wasn't in his rightmind.
(28:20):
Like we need to do somethingabout this, can we do something
about this?
And this guy's like, hey, man,I respect your dad and all, but
there's no way that I'm going tonot do this deal.
And so Ted Turner, throughingenuity, ends up finding a
loophole in the deal and throughthat loophole, found a way to
get it from out of the deal.
And this is like the key thingto Ted Turner's career.
(28:43):
He was that type of guy who youknow, huh, just like any other
great in history.
What do you think Ted Turnerdid most of his time Reading
about what Biography HistoryFigure?
Right, that's a commonality.
You go be great at anything.
(29:03):
Generally, the greats arestudents of their craft and
their industry, anyway, so yeah,hank Aaron.
So Ted Turner ends up takingthat billboard industry and
turning it into 24-7 cable news.
You know how you have cable atone.
When Hank Aaron was hittingthese home runs, I think the
cable news industry was juststarting or about to start.
(29:26):
That was rare ESPN, cnn, allthese network stations that play
all the time.
That wasn't happening.
Then Ted Turner ushered that inAtlanta and through that he
ended up becoming the owner ofthe Braves and of the Hulk.
And him being the owner of theBraves, he brought Hank Aaron as
(29:47):
his foe and Aaron became aprominent member of the front
office and he began to puttogether.
See, and that's another thing,he doesn't get his credit for
him helping put together theBraves too.
The Atlanta Braves managerright now, brian Snicker.
That was Hank Aaron's last hire.
Maus (30:05):
When did Snicker leave the Braves?
I don't know.
I think maybe when did he leavethe Braves.
Zettler IV (30:09):
I don't know.
I think maybe in the 2000s whenthe team was sold to Liberty,
but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure, but he had playeda big part, like Chipper Jones
pick.
I don't know if y'all knowChipper Jones Hall of Fame
switch, hitter, extraordinaire.
He was number one pick by theAtlanta Braves in 1990.
However, he wasn't their numberone choice at the time.
(30:32):
There was another player whowas their number one choice by
the name of Todd Van Poppel.
You know who Todd Van Poppel is?
Maus (30:38):
No.
Zettler IV (30:39):
I know you don't Me and others don't either and if
it wasn't for Hank Aaron, theyprobably would have drafted him.
This is from a story from theMorris biographical account how
they was all Bobby Cox who wasthe general manager at the time.
They was enthralled with VanPoppel and it was Hank that's
(31:01):
the one that talked them intogoing with Chipper instead of
him, david Justice, mark Lemke,tomke, tom glaver run again.
These are big figures in theirchampionship run, not to say
that john sherholtz, who's theirgeneral man the time.
I'm sorry I said bobby cox is ageneral manager then, but bobby
(31:22):
cox was actually their manageraround the time that they was
talking about Draco ChipperJones.
But John Sherholtz and Bobby Coxthey're considered the two
folks who architected theBraves' dynasty in the 90s and
they do deserve their credit.
Henry Aaron was the head ofplayer development, but his name
is not mentioned at all whenthey talk about these Braves
(31:44):
runs in the 90s and check.
Look up Google Bra.
Talk about these Braves runs inthe 90s and check for yourself.
Look up Google Braveschampionship Braves, 1990s run
and see how many times you hearHank Aaron's name associated
with that.
Maus (31:56):
I didn't even know.
Aaron was in the front officefor the 90s.
Zettler IV (32:01):
Yeah, a lot of people did, and it's a little
stuff like that that isdisrespectful.
It's not even slightdisrespectful.
There's this 37 page PDFinterview with Henry Aaron and I
forget the author, but he talksabout his keys to success and I
(32:25):
want highlight that y'allbecause I feel like it's just
very instructive focus, abilityto concentrate at will,
visualization.
He talks about how he didn'tpay much attention to his
mechanic and his form but theball colliding with his guest
hitting zone really had aboutrepeating his key and if you are
(32:49):
the type that get bored easily,you're probably glossed over
because he says pretty much thesame thing throughout the
interview.
But if you're a seeker, youwill see that for what it is and
what that is, a parallel ofwhat every other great achiever
does.
Maus (33:09):
All of what he says is connected in some way.
Zettler IV (33:16):
You know how I was talking about, how he was at the
Rialto and they asked him whatdo you think about it?
And if he could do it again, hewouldn't do it.
Looking at the last day and thesixth championship, how much in
delirium and ecstasy they wereof winning.
(33:36):
And I was just thinking that'show it should be when you are
better at your field, at yourcraft, than anybody else in the
history of your field and yourcraft, you should be able to
enjoy the boon of your work.
But Henry Aaron, whom theycalled the rookie rocket, the
(34:00):
hammer it was.
He tasted bitter fruits fromhis experience, but he left a
bountiful harvest for us.
It reminds me of the story ofPrometheus.
You familiar with that story?
No, Prometheus was a god whotook fire and brought it to
(34:26):
humanity, the civilization.
And because he took fire fromthe gods, brought it to humanity
, he was punished for it,Punished.
He was punished for Punished.
So he managed to get the fire,got the gift, but he couldn't
enjoy it because that was hispenalty for doing that.
Maus (34:48):
So basically what you're saying is Hank Aaron did all
this work and went through veryrough challenges.
He didn't really get.
He got some pleasure, but we'rethe one that really gets the
heart of it, that really getsthe big, the most pleasure,
because we didn't go do all thatstuff that he went through.
(35:09):
So that's the bitter fruit in abig car, yeah he couldn't enjoy
what he worked for especiallywith that front office thing and
him joining the Braves.
Zettler IV (35:28):
They passed it up, they gave him a nice check and
he was able to get hisbusinesses off the ground and
continue to live after all that.
But he also continued to speakup against Major League
Baseball's hiring practice, andevery time he would speak up
about it he'd get this come on,why are you doing this?
(35:50):
What are you so grumpy for?
They give you a life, they giveyou everything.
Why, why nick the game that'sgiving you so much?
Maus (35:58):
They've also taken away a bunch from.
They gave him death threats.
They gave him a bunch of traumaNot trauma.
They gave him incidents thatweren't Unnecessary.
Zettler IV (36:11):
Right.
Yeah, I don't know if you heardRecently the Negro League's
stats would be included withMajor League Player's stat and
it's been updated and Ty Cobb isno longer the batter with the
highest batting average now.
Who has the highest battingaverage now?
Major League slash, negroLeague history.
Maus (36:33):
You told me that, but it's Josh Gibson.
Zettler IV (36:37):
I'll just be repeating myself over.
I forget who I tell.
I say the same thing all thetime.
But it's Josh Gibson.
I'll just be repeating myselfover.
I forget who I tell.
I say the same thing all thetime.
Yeah, josh Gibson, josh.
And Josh Gibson is a name thatwe've heard in lore.
You know he's known for thisguy who hit this 800-foot home
run.
I don't know what they said.
I don't know.
You know how these storieshappen Hit a home run that still
ain't landed yet.
Hit a home run that still ain'tlanded, yet.
(36:58):
He hit over 800 home runs.
The main thing is he isrepresentative of so many
players that was denied anopportunity to make good money
and exercise their talentbecause of the hue of their skin
.
Josh Gibson is number one, tyCobb number two.
Number three is OscarCharleston, with another name.
(37:19):
So we got so many names offolks who have been denied this
opportunity.
When Hank Aaron speaks out,he's speaking out.
Yeah, he had the fruits.
He's done his thing.
But how many thousands ofpeople were denied?
Maus (37:35):
a bunch of people.
I have a question about theNegro League status.
Do they include, like home runrecords, and are there any
changes on that?
Zettler IV (37:48):
I don't know about here, but the home run record is
still intact.
Barry Lamar Barnes is still thetop at 762, with Hank Aaron
being number two on the list,and this is ongoing.
So as they continue to unearthresearch about this time,
they're going to come up withthese new things.
But yeah, except for Page, hedidn't even get to the major
(38:10):
leagues until I don't know he'slike in his 40s and got people
who played against him in themajor league hailing his
greatness, saying he's the bestpitcher they've ever seen, all
this stuff.
So it's this boom, it's thisthing that we gotta remember in
his 50 year anniversary.
When Jackie Robinson first cameto the league, there was 0%
(38:32):
African American.
When Hank Aaron retired frommajor league baseball, it was at
his peak of African Americanplayers, players.
I think something like 23-24%of the league were
African-American.
Ten years later guess what?
That number was Lower than that.
I think it was something around8-9%, I think, even now.
(38:53):
I think now is something around.
So there has been a declinefrom when Hank Aaron retired
from baseball to now, and theirreason was discovered through
this, in large part through thisseries done by the
aforementioned journalist,terrence Moore, whom full
disclaimer I do know he has beenextremely helpful to my career
(39:17):
as far as journalism.
Nevertheless, he ran a seriesin 1982 entitled Blacks in
Baseball, in which he discoveredthat on Major League Baseball
scouting forums there was acategory for race.
Now you may be wondering what'swrong with that.
There is no category for racein the NBA scouting report or in
(39:37):
the NFL scouting report, butthere's a category for race in
baseball.
Maus (39:42):
Why would they care about that?
Zettler IV (39:44):
You categorize that so you can limit it.
You keep track of it so you cancontrol it.
So that's you know.
That story came out and youknow because they would say well
, black people don't playbaseball anymore because they're
not interested, it's expensiveand they just rather do other
things.
But that's not true.
(40:04):
Why would anybody denythemselves the opportunity to
make millions of dollars in afield where there's no salary
cap?
Maus (40:10):
Ew, that doesn't make sense.
That doesn't make sense, yeah.
Zettler IV (40:15):
You know, the systematic push has been
happening for a while.
Hank Aaron talked about that, Alot of other folks talked about
that and nothing has been doneto change that.
Now you have, you know, morepeople who are more
African-American coaches nowthan there was.
Shout out to Dusty Baker.
Maus (40:33):
There's more Latinos and different people from different
countries.
Zettler IV (40:36):
It's crazy.
George Foster, big Red Machine,kyle Hill and he played for the
Mets.
In his article in his Blacks inBaseball series that Terrence
Moore did, he said he made aprediction.
He said they're bringing inmore Hispanic Latin Americans
because they're cheaper.
And Gary Sheffield saidsomething about that years later
and that was consideredcontroversial.
It's controversial in the sensethat it's a sinister scheme,
(40:59):
but it ain't controversial inthe sense that it's a lie and
it's just one of those things.
As soon as we all come to gripsthat it is what it is, they're
pushing for a certain amount of,I guess they're pushing for a
certain amount of one ratecontrol control of numbers, the
(41:20):
word I kept trying to figure out.
I said I guess it's chromatism.
They want a certain hue and alook of things, because why is
it that it would be beneficialto people to control the numbers
of African Americans in aparticular way?
Maus (41:36):
No real reason, they're just being racist.
Zettler IV (41:39):
But why?
Perhaps if you open thefloodgates for folks to get in,
then certain people will be outof a job.
Whenever you see things likethat, it's generally evidence of
zero-sum mentality.
More of them means less of us,instead of the mentality of more
(42:06):
of them means more talent,better products, more
competition.
Maus (42:14):
What brings in more money for the people, for the owners.
Why would they even do that?
It doesn't make sense for thepeople, for the owners, so why
would they even do that?
It doesn't make sense in thefirst place.
If you have better players thatare having competition that
gives you more money, they'rejust being rich.
Zettler IV (42:32):
So yeah, nba, the Boston Celtics, brett Albeck was
genius enough to realize hey,man, let me just get these black
folks on this team on the courtand we go outrun folks and we
go outplay people and out andjust be better at basketball.
And Celtics established theirdynasty because the rest of the
NBA were too myopic to adapt tothat mindset.
(42:54):
And you see it all throughoutdifferent industries and
different areas.
The movie film industry wassuffering in the 70s and then
you had this stream of blackmovies, many of which are called
black exploitation films, thatcome into theaters and black
folks came to theaters and itsaved the movie industry.
Nbc struggling Before BillCosby's show came on and lifted
(43:18):
their rating.
The thing with Foxby's show cameon and lifted their rating.
The Anthony Foxx before InLiving Color came on and lifted
their ratings.
Martin and all these streamingshows you see this all
throughout just floundering.
Marvel's struggling now, butMarvel's really struggling.
And then Blade came out withWest Snipes starting the titular
character, and Marvel industrysets off.
(43:39):
So I mean, you see this all thetime.
If you bring the talent, theratings will show for itself.
But what happens is when youtry to curtail talent, then you
have a weaker product and youhave obvious claims of
discrimination.
And we are at minute number 44.
Quinn, I wanted to end 44.
Maus (44:00):
Go.
Zettler IV (44:01):
Hey y'all.
Happy 50th anniversary to thehome run king.
He passed away in January of2021, I believe, and his life
continues to serve as a model.
He inspired my fathertremendously.
He inspires me tremendously.
Maus (44:24):
He inspires me tremendously.
Zettler IV (44:26):
And millions of others.
So while I understand I saw hispain of the dignity humanity
stripped from him during hisrecord-breaking chase I also
remember the life that he'sgiven, the dedication to his
craft, the thinking, the focusand the ability to defy ruinous,
(44:53):
hateful opposition.
Rest in peace to Hammerin'Henry Aaron.
Thank you, hello.
Maus (45:56):
Hello, today I will be recording a section of letters
that were written by fans toHank Aaron.
Dear Nigger Aaron, Some blackswe admire and respect, but we
can't tolerate cocky niggerslike you.
(46:16):
Dear Hank Aaron, you are veryfortunate that your ancestors
were brought over to thiscountry, even though they were
slaves.
Now, don't you know that theseslaves had a much better life
over here than they would haveif they had not been brought to
(46:37):
America, than they would have ifthey had not been brought to
America?
Now these natives living inAfrica need your help.
They want you to send themmoney to dig wells, for you see,
by the enclosed paper, thatthey do not have enough water,
(47:00):
that they do not have enoughwater, Knowing that you have
been raking in the money from agood many sources and also
knowing that you can well affordto help these people, your
people also.
If you do want to manage, thengo over to Africa and manage to
(47:21):
dig these wells that are sobadly needed.
They really need you in Africaand you should go by any means.
Some things that make me reallyinspired by Hank Aaron.
I'm inspired by him the way hejust handled all of this
(47:44):
situation.
He was a black man in the 60s,50s, had to deal with all of
this Death threats, deaththreats to his kids.
He still beat the record.
All that that's on a wholenother level.
He wasn't scared.
In his book he talks about assoon as he got in the field
nothing, he shut everything offthat was happening in the world
(48:06):
and he just focused on the field.
That's what he says in hisbooks.
I'm inspired that he stillpushed on even though, like
death threats were sent to him.
He was in Atlanta, a city witha lot of Confederate monuments.
Yeah, that's why I'm inspiredby him.
(48:27):
Rest in peace to Hank Aaron.
Love him.
It was April 8th 1974.
The game was stopped for 11minutes and Henry was too weary
to be eloquent.
Honesty without flourish wasall he could offer.
There was no joy contained inhis drained face, no desire to
bask in his own afterglow.
His words were not reflectiveor introspective or prescient,
(00:23):
nor, upon reflecting upon thisevening, would they ever be.
I just thank God.
Henry said that it's all overwith.
For the next 35 years, HenryAaron would not waver from this
position.
That excerpt was from a bookcalled the Last Hero A Life of
(00:44):
Henry Aaron, a biographicalaccount by journalist Howard
Bryant, published around 2010.
I was talking with my10-year-old son the other day
about the career of the HammerHank Aaron.
It reminded me of a time I wentto see him at a conference at
the Rialto by Georgia StateUniversity.
See him at a conference at theRialto by Georgia State
(01:06):
University.
He was asked how he felt aboutsurpassing 714 home runs, a
question he'd been askedcountless times over the past
three decades.
His answer bucked my eyes.
If I had to do it all overagain, I don't know if I would
have.
It was astonishing, Arguablythe most hallowed record in
(01:31):
professional sports, and hewasn't even sure it was worth it
.
The death threats, thedisrespect, the pressure, the
constant unnecessary scrutiny.
He endured all of it just toplay a game he set out to master
ever since he was a boy inMobile, Alabama.
On that stage that day, however, it seemed as if he still
(01:54):
wanted to be free of that burden.
I still remember thedisappointment from his voice as
the best hitter in Major LeagueBaseball history lamented about
one of the worst periods of hislife.
Noting the 50-year anniversaryof Aaron's 715th home run, I
(02:17):
feel inspired to create a periodpiece.
The emphasis starts with themoment he touched home plate,
making him the top home runhitter in Major League Baseball
history, a record later brokenby Bear Buns and it ends with
the conclusion of thattumultuous season and him
spending the next four-plusdecades picking up the pieces.
(02:39):
Hank Aaron was traded at theend of that season to Milwaukee.
Hank Aaron was traded at theend of that season to Milwaukee
after never being offered a newcontract or role in the
managerial or front office bythe only franchise he had ever
played for.
In his final Atlanta Bravesat-bat at Fulton County Stadium,
(03:00):
he poetically hit a home run.
After crossing home plate, hekept running into the dugout,
into the tunnel, into the lockerroom.
Despite the crowd's calls forhim to come back out, he stayed
in that locker room, tearsstreaming down his face, knowing
(03:22):
, without a doubt, that his timeas a professional baseball
player in Atlanta of old Swatch.
Zettler V (03:45):
Tell you just how we speak.
Don't fold when you from.
Pozone, what number is yourpolice precinct?
We on, yeah, tell you just howwe speak.
Don't fold.
Don't fold when you from.
What number is your policeprecinct?
Don't fold, like All right,quint.
Zettler IV (04:14):
So there are three books that I'm going to use to
guide us through this episodethe one aforementioned, the Last
Hero, a Life of Hearing Aaron,by Howard Bryant, but then two
more.
I'm going to reference Hisautobiography that he wrote I
had a Hammer with Lonnie Willer,and another account written by
(04:35):
Terrence Moore, entitled theReal Hank Aaron Intimate look at
the life and legacy of the homerun king.
And I'm using those three books, quint, for obvious reasons.
Right, they're biographies,which means if you want to get
the scoop on something about asituation on somebody's life,
you need to go to a primarysource or a secondary source.
(04:56):
Who at least knows how to reachprimary sources and those
around the primary source?
So in this case, we know aboutthe wreck, we know about the
record, we know about the deaththreat.
There's been tons of scores ofdocumentaries that are out
talking about this in grislydetail.
I want to focus on that period,right after they hit the home
(05:17):
run Right, and the question Iwant to guide this episode is
what happens after the glory,even decades later?
So that's something he talkedabout too.
He didn't want to be known aswell.
(05:39):
So it's twofold Henry Aaron, thehome run king does have a ring
to it.
He can walk places, he's acelebrity, he's on the late
night shows, he's getting moreendorsements.
The fame, the money aspect ofit I'm sure he enjoys, just like
anybody famous in that positionenjoys.
There are perks for things thatare enjoyed.
(06:02):
But then it obscured a part ofhim that well, he wasn't just a
home run there, number one intotal bases, number one in RBIs,
(06:22):
number one in extra base hits,I believe.
Now he doesn't have the mostdoubles, I think, trish Speaker,
that's Trish Speaker, and youcan't have them all right.
So you have that aspect.
And then the other part ispeople want to act like those
(06:45):
death threats didn't happen.
They did, yeah, and I had ahammer.
The hank aaron story writtenwith lonnie willer.
He puts a few of those in thereand they are as heinous and
reprehensible as you couldimagine.
And the thing is and Hank Aarontalked about these things in his
(07:09):
autobiography that he did notfeel support from the Atlanta
media and fans as much as hethought he should have gotten.
He did reference a couplemoments that he got standing
ovations in his hometown, but healso referenced a few moments
where he was getting heckled byhis own fans, which is crazy.
(07:30):
He would go to other stadiumsand they'll give him ovations
and have 25,000 people there.
He'd come to his home crowd,have 8,000 people there and he
got a few journeys out in thestands just ripping him and
giving him Sally League language.
You know what Sally League is?
The Sally League was the leaguehe played in when he first got
(07:52):
drafted.
It was in Jacksonville.
Baseball players get drafted.
They got to go through a minorleague system.
The Sally League was what itwas called in Florida, I believe
.
It was Class A and he wasgetting all kinds of jiggle boos
and hard ERs thrown at him.
He couldn't eat with his team,he couldn't stay with his team.
He had to arrange differentaccommodations.
He's a professional baseballplayer In the country club for
(08:16):
major league baseball at thetime but couldn't get a meal,
unaccosted and without a senseof psychological distress.
This is what is happening.
This is the time, this is theera that he's in.
All this is happening.
He hits the home run.
So what do you think happensright after his home run?
How do you think hisperformance went?
Maus (08:42):
He goes home, his mother gives him a hug, he hugs up up
his mother and I think for therest of the game he doesn't get
a hit.
I believe, sure, but I think hedoesn't get a hit not just for
the rest of the game.
Zettler IV (08:55):
for the next five game, I believe.
He went one for his next 16thand that one hit was, ironically
, a home run and he struggled.
He hit 200 for the rest of thatmonth.
For the month of June he washitting in the low 200s and even
in July he was hitting in the200s.
He ended up getting voted tothe All-Star team in the middle
(09:17):
of July.
Maus (09:18):
But he was having a poor season compared to then.
Zettler IV (09:23):
At the plate right and he had kicked up this
marathon to catch Ruth and he's40 now right.
So he's powered off adrenaline,he's powered off motivation,
he's powered off the hate mail,he's powered off his own
gumption, his own purpose, andthen, once he reaches the record
(09:45):
, it's just this day, no ma airbeen let out the balloon a
little bit, but there's somethings that happened that season
.
I think it's important tohighlight in this episode,
because I've read about him inthis book and accounts, but it's
not something that's out there.
But he got into it with theatlanta media and they put his
(10:09):
wife in it and they did notoffer him another contract and
they didn't offer him a frontoffice position.
They wanted and they didn'teven give him the courtesy to
offer him the managerialposition when it was available.
Did I just say a whole lot?
Maus (10:31):
No, they didn't.
They basically didn't want topay him.
Well, they didn't want him toget the front office job, or
with the break front office job,or with the brain.
Zettler IV (10:45):
So let me get the front office position in Major
League Baseball.
In 1974, you would have had tobe I don't know, let's see white
and male, because there wasliterally no African American in
a front office role in 1974.
In fact, this was right beforethe free agency period.
(11:09):
It wasn't black people inmanagerial role, black people in
executive role, black scout waspretty much nonexistent.
Only place you saw color atpertained to Major League
Baseball was on the field.
Even those who was on the fieldwere exceptional superstars.
(11:30):
I believe in the 1960s,something like 60% of all the
all-stars were eitherAfrican-American or Latin
American.
So it was this thing that youknow.
Hank Aaron said this, spokeabout this that weren't, you
couldn't be a regular player andblack In the major league.
(11:52):
That makes sense.
So, for example, you can have awhite player who hits 210, 230,
240, 250 and can stick aroundfor 12 years and leave.
Maus (12:02):
If a black person did that , Then they would kick out for
like.
They would get kicked out forlike six years.
Zettler IV (12:08):
Even less than that.
You had to be exceptional.
So while this caused the talentto jump off the page and leap
at you, it also caused theincome opportunities to dwindle,
and so this happened.
So when Hank Aaron was asked ifhe would be the manager by the
(12:30):
media, he initially said no, Iwouldn't want to be the manager,
no, I don't have any interest.
But then he was asked again, orhe thought about it, and he
said you know what?
I think I will, because thereare none.
And being that Jackie Robinsonwas his guy, Jackie Robinson was
his North Star and in a lot ofways, Henry Aaron was a variant
(12:52):
of Jackie Robinson, Kind offinished, or Powerful, more
powerful, jackie Robinson.
Yeah, he turned the lever like180 degrees.
Jackie Robinson came in thefirst, and then it was steadily
more and more.
Harry Aaron represented thebest of what the Negro League
(13:14):
had to offer, and he did it in away that was more impressive,
at least numerically, than anyother player that's ever played
the game from a hittingstandpoint.
So you have all this.
He's saying he would like to beconsidered.
He's not being considered.
The journalist is saying he'sdouble-talking.
(13:36):
He ends up throwing a carton ofstrawberries in one of the
writer's face the writer whodidn't even write the article.
But nevertheless, thatjournalist Frank Hyland, I
believe, was his name.
He was just in the wrong placeat the wrong time.
This is a normally stoic manthrowing cartons of strawberries
in a journalist's face Afternow.
(14:00):
This is important.
This is why it's alwaysimportant to have context.
You know why he threw that cardin his face.
Maus (14:06):
Why.
Zettler IV (14:06):
Because there's an article in the paper with his
wife's picture and under thepicture is a caption entitled
Billy.
This is his wife's name, colontrouble Question mark.
That's a low blow.
Why are you putting his wife inthe article?
(14:27):
And the article is insinuatingthat his wife was putting
notions in his head that hestarted to become more of a
rabble rouser and speaking outagainst MLB and his hiring
practice because his wife wasputting thoughts into his head
as if he wasn't a sentient,intelligent being enough to have
these thoughts on his own.
(14:49):
That's the thing that this duderight here as we talk about this
in the 50th anniversary ofBreaking this Record.
He was an extremely cerebralguy.
There are counts of teammatestalking about how scientific he
was, about his approach to thegame, talking about how
scientific he was, about hisapproach to the game.
(15:10):
He wasn't just this magicalNegro who was a mutant and just
had this natural gift andability.
Of course, he had natural gifts, no more than you and I may
have natural gifts and abilitiesin reading, empathizing with
people or what have you, but heworked at it.
Maus (15:25):
He had talent and he worked for it listen, you don't.
Zettler IV (15:29):
You don't become a goat figure by accident you have
to work for it.
And, but not just work.
You got to have your ownpersonal curriculum.
Work like you got to be workingwithout permission reminds me
of a lot of names come to mind,but I was recently reading about
Edwin Land.
Edwin Land is the founder ofthe Polaroid.
(15:49):
You know what a Polaroid is?
Maus (15:52):
No, what's a Polaroid so?
Zettler IV (15:52):
there was once upon a time, not too long ago.
So it was a camera and when youpress the button to the camera
a picture would come out slidingout, and then you give it about
10 seconds or so well, 30 gothow long it was and a full
picture would emerge.
That was revolutionary butedward land.
(16:15):
He created that and a whole anda host of other inventions.
He was a scientist, it was atinkerer, he was innovative.
But it talks about how, when hewent to Harvard, dropped out,
he said, went to the New YorkPublic Library and read
everything there was to readabout life.
Maus (16:32):
When did he make it?
Zettler IV (16:37):
That came after World War II.
I don't know, off the top of myhead.
So, ok, I'll give you areference point.
So, college 17.
Polaroid wasn't created untilhis late 30s, I believe.
So he's been toiling in theindustry for years, a couple
decades, up to the point wherehe created Polaroid, which is
another lesson man that EdwinLand.
(16:58):
His curriculum wasn't what hedid.
You're not going to study andfind in school.
You know what I mean.
You're going to have to in yourfield, in your area, in your
realm.
You're going to have to work inways that can't be told to you.
All you can do is just work,reading every book in the
(17:22):
library on life, just likewaking Cracker Dunn and working
on basketball four times a day,like Kobe Bryant talks about in
Mamba Mentality.
Charlie Munger, the lateCharlie Munger, talks about how
he never has taken any course inchemistry, economics,
psychology or business.
He talks about the importanceof being self-taught.
Maus (17:42):
Every grad as work and have their own curriculum job.
Zettler IV (18:00):
From what I've read, all indications go toward the
lunacy of working, of a workethic being central to success.
Jay-z Rakim DM.
All my friends read DMSautobiography the other day Very
good.
Maus (18:15):
I read it.
Zettler IV (18:17):
Yeah, yeah.
He talks about how much he usedto write.
He was incarcerated a lot andthat's when he got his best
writing in, and the fact thatyou know he treated
incarceration as his reset andjust wrote it from sunup sundown
filled rings of notebook.
Rakim talked about writing from10 am to 12 midnight every day
(18:39):
for a whole summer when he was Idon't know young I don't know
how young, maybe teenager Jay-Z,same thing.
It's just that kind of thing,that pattern you just can
completely see.
So they treat Hank like he justwas, this natural wunderkind
that didn't treat it like ahuman who was magnificently
(19:02):
blessed with the talent who workassiduously at developing.
That's one thing I really don'twant you to overlook.
Maus (19:14):
He has several in his autobiography.
He talks about his bottle capto his broom.
Zettler IV (19:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he can make his own baseballs
with makeshift material, thingsof that nature.
It's not about the technologyand the tools, as much as what's
in you and your gift and yourability and just your
willingness to get after itwithout asking for permission.
(19:43):
That's a tremendous takeawayfrom his story.
But anyway, so yeah, wife, inthe paper he loses it.
He doesn't being disrespectedabout not being considerate for
his man, about not having a mindof his own, about having his
(20:03):
wife being put in the middle ofsomething completely out of
bound.
It's, by the way, anotheruntold, very little known story.
When Hank Aaron first got toAtlanta, when the Atlanta Braves
moved in from Milwaukee in 1966, there was an incident between
his then wife at the time andtried to get into the game, but
(20:24):
apparently the security guardwas new or didn't know or
whatever.
He wouldn't let her in andtried to get through, wouldn't
let her in.
Next thing, she's getting a gunpulled out on her and she's
getting arrested and charged.
This is the wife of the bestplayer in the league in his home
city Home stadium, with hiswife getting a gun pulled out to
(20:48):
him and arrested.
So this little stuff that hedid, that's not even little.
This is the stuff that he'sdealing with.
Atlanta is in this campaign andit's important to understand
the role of Atlanta in thisprocess of Henry Aaron breaking
this record.
Maus (21:06):
I heard the story where Atlanta was hot and humid, which
means the ball stays in the airfor longer, which helped Hank
Aaron Long know that he couldhit more home runs because the
humid air makes it stick in theair for longer.
Zettler IV (21:25):
Yeah, yeah, it's a story that you're talking about
how he took his first battingpractice when he first got to
Atlanta-Fortin County Stadiumand he noticed then, like you
said, the ball carried here.
And that's when he made aconscious choice in his career
to shift from being a hitspredominant person to a home run
(21:49):
predominant person.
And he did that by crowding theplate a little more and looking
for pitch to pull.
And what makes that remarkableis that his batting average it
wasn't as high as it was, but hestill managed to hit 300.
In most of his years in Atlantaand I think his last year here
(22:13):
he hit like 260s, which isremarkable considering that he
hit in the 200s for the firstthree months after breaking Babe
Ruth's record, which means hehad to go on a tear to get an
average of 260.
But then I think he hit 260s,like in his average of 260.
But then I think he hit 260,like in his third year here, but
other than that he hit 300.
Another ridiculous show of hisability to swear at baseball.
(22:34):
But yeah, so Atlanta provided anecessary catalyst for him to
be able to charge Babe Ruth'srecord, because when they first
moved here people were nottalking about his name, it was
Willie.
It was Willie.
He had made that decision, andthat's another thing, a theme in
(22:55):
his career.
He planned, it was all purpose,everything he set out to do.
It wasn't through ahappenstance, it was through
deliberation, constitution, andthese are the things that I
often overlook when we talkabout Henry Aaron the GOAT.
So all this is happening, he'sstruggling, wife getting
(23:24):
disrespected, he gettingdisrespected and he's not even
being offered a contract.
His contract was coming to aclose and the Braves are, in
subtle ways, making it clearthat they don't want him around
anymore.
And so three biographies that Ireferenced.
They have different takes onthem, but I'm going to defer
(23:47):
with the real Hank Aaron, theintimate look at the life and
legacy of the home run king byTerence Moore, because he
actually spent a lot of timetalking to Hank Aaron about his
post-Braves career and what wasactually going on.
And, according to Moore, henrywanted to retire after that
season.
If they had given him afront-offer position at the
(24:10):
close of the season, he wouldretire as a Brave and went there
, but they would not do that.
Maus (24:16):
Dad, I have a question Did he ask for a position or did
they just he said he wanted it,but he didn't ask for it, but
they didn't give it to him.
Or did he ask for it?
Zettler IV (24:29):
These were ongoing conversations.
Yeah, him and hisrepresentation made it clear
that they wanted a front officeposition and what they want to
offer and, in fact, BartholomewBray's owner at the time.
He expressed regret fortreating Hank like that on his
way out the door.
He didn't have the leadershipor the gumption to you know what
(24:52):
.
Let's go ahead and just finishthe job that Atlanta is boosting
and go ahead and put this manin the front office position,
where he deserves, because he isan excellent baseball mind and
he is the greatest athlete thatAtlanta professional sports has
ever had and he did just breakthe top record of sports and he
is a cool personality dad, Ihave a question.
Maus (25:14):
I heard you once talk about Hank Aaron's brother.
Zettler IV (25:16):
They didn't offer me no, no, great point, they did
not.
So Tommy Aaron was coaching inthe minor leagues at the time
that Hank was setting a recordand he was doing well.
And Hank was like, hey, if itain't me, consider him, he's
doing well, baseball guy,brother Aaron's no baseball.
And they told Henry.
(25:38):
They said, nah, he's doing sucha good job in the minor league.
We need him to stay focused onthat.
Maus (25:44):
What.
Zettler IV (25:45):
And yeah, that's what he said too, because why
would you put the welfare of aminor league team over the major
league team that's bringing inmillions of dollars for you?
That absolutely makes no sense.
It's all just little stuff.
That is mind games.
You insult my intelligence andall right, I think I'm about
done with atlanta anywhere.
So this is stuff that washappening in the aftermath of
(26:09):
7-15.
So there's another key piece ofHank Aaron's life, too that
deserves discussion when he didget his front office role.
So he was traded from theBraves to the Milwaukee Brewers,
owned by Bud Selig, and heplayed his last two years out
(26:30):
for them.
And then he was brought backinto Atlanta by Ted Turner, whom
I'll probably discuss at somepoint on this show, because he
is a figure that you can'treally talk about.
The making of modern Atlantawithout talking about Ted Turner
is not only pivotal in thecable news industry, but he's
(26:51):
critical in Hank Aaron's returnto Atlanta, which played a role
in Debray's future success inthe 90s.
Maus (27:01):
I have a question for Ted Turner.
I know we're going to get tothis later in the episode, but
give me a little small way, ted.
Zettler IV (27:10):
Turner is a cable magnate who inherited a
billboard business from hisfather.
His father had created asuccessful billboards business
and Ted Turner was raised underhis father's watchful and
disciplined eye, and you knowhis dad, terry Turner, was the
heir apparent.
His dad ends up committingsuicide and stress through
(27:37):
business.
I imagine it was a certainamount of stress personally as
well.
That I'm not sure of.
That I'm not sure of.
I look forward to finding thatout.
But I just know the gist of itis that Ted Turner was in his
early 20s when his dad committedsuicide and that left Ted
Turner to pick up pieces.
But think about it is TedTurner made a name for himself
(28:00):
by going to bat against one ofhis dad's businessmen.
So apparently his dad hassigned a business deal that was
bad for the company and dad dies.
And Ted says, hey, I'm lookingat these numbers.
Talking to the businessmanwhose dad signed a business deal
with, he said I'm looking atthis and this ain't right.
He clearly wasn't in his rightmind.
(28:20):
Like we need to do somethingabout this, can we do something
about this?
And this guy's like, hey, man,I respect your dad and all, but
there's no way that I'm going tonot do this deal.
And so Ted Turner, throughingenuity, ends up finding a
loophole in the deal and throughthat loophole, found a way to
get it from out of the deal.
And this is like the key thingto Ted Turner's career.
(28:43):
He was that type of guy who youknow, huh, just like any other
great in history.
What do you think Ted Turnerdid most of his time Reading
about what Biography HistoryFigure?
Right, that's a commonality.
You go be great at anything.
(29:03):
Generally, the greats arestudents of their craft and
their industry, anyway, so yeah,hank Aaron.
So Ted Turner ends up takingthat billboard industry and
turning it into 24-7 cable news.
You know how you have cable atone.
When Hank Aaron was hittingthese home runs, I think the
cable news industry was juststarting or about to start.
(29:26):
That was rare ESPN, cnn, allthese network stations that play
all the time.
That wasn't happening.
Then Ted Turner ushered that inAtlanta and through that he
ended up becoming the owner ofthe Braves and of the Hulk.
And him being the owner of theBraves, he brought Hank Aaron as
(29:47):
his foe and Aaron became aprominent member of the front
office and he began to puttogether.
See, and that's another thing,he doesn't get his credit for
him helping put together theBraves too.
The Atlanta Braves managerright now, brian Snicker.
That was Hank Aaron's last hire.
Maus (30:05):
When did Snicker leave the Braves?
I don't know.
I think maybe when did he leavethe Braves.
Zettler IV (30:09):
I don't know.
I think maybe in the 2000s whenthe team was sold to Liberty,
but I'm not sure.
I'm not sure, but he had playeda big part, like Chipper Jones
pick.
I don't know if y'all knowChipper Jones Hall of Fame
switch, hitter, extraordinaire.
He was number one pick by theAtlanta Braves in 1990.
However, he wasn't their numberone choice at the time.
(30:32):
There was another player whowas their number one choice by
the name of Todd Van Poppel.
You know who Todd Van Poppel is?
Maus (30:38):
No.
Zettler IV (30:39):
I know you don't Me and others don't either and if
it wasn't for Hank Aaron, theyprobably would have drafted him.
This is from a story from theMorris biographical account how
they was all Bobby Cox who wasthe general manager at the time.
They was enthralled with VanPoppel and it was Hank that's
(31:01):
the one that talked them intogoing with Chipper instead of
him, david Justice, mark Lemke,tomke, tom glaver run again.
These are big figures in theirchampionship run, not to say
that john sherholtz, who's theirgeneral man the time.
I'm sorry I said bobby cox is ageneral manager then, but bobby
(31:22):
cox was actually their manageraround the time that they was
talking about Draco ChipperJones.
But John Sherholtz and Bobby Coxthey're considered the two
folks who architected theBraves' dynasty in the 90s and
they do deserve their credit.
Henry Aaron was the head ofplayer development, but his name
is not mentioned at all whenthey talk about these Braves
(31:44):
runs in the 90s and check.
Look up Google Bra.
Talk about these Braves runs inthe 90s and check for yourself.
Look up Google Braveschampionship Braves, 1990s run
and see how many times you hearHank Aaron's name associated
with that.
Maus (31:56):
I didn't even know.
Aaron was in the front officefor the 90s.
Zettler IV (32:01):
Yeah, a lot of people did, and it's a little
stuff like that that isdisrespectful.
It's not even slightdisrespectful.
There's this 37 page PDFinterview with Henry Aaron and I
forget the author, but he talksabout his keys to success and I
(32:25):
want highlight that y'allbecause I feel like it's just
very instructive focus, abilityto concentrate at will,
visualization.
He talks about how he didn'tpay much attention to his
mechanic and his form but theball colliding with his guest
hitting zone really had aboutrepeating his key and if you are
(32:49):
the type that get bored easily,you're probably glossed over
because he says pretty much thesame thing throughout the
interview.
But if you're a seeker, youwill see that for what it is and
what that is, a parallel ofwhat every other great achiever
does.
Maus (33:09):
All of what he says is connected in some way.
Zettler IV (33:16):
You know how I was talking about, how he was at the
Rialto and they asked him whatdo you think about it?
And if he could do it again, hewouldn't do it.
Looking at the last day and thesixth championship, how much in
delirium and ecstasy they wereof winning.
(33:36):
And I was just thinking that'show it should be when you are
better at your field, at yourcraft, than anybody else in the
history of your field and yourcraft, you should be able to
enjoy the boon of your work.
But Henry Aaron, whom theycalled the rookie rocket, the
(34:00):
hammer it was.
He tasted bitter fruits fromhis experience, but he left a
bountiful harvest for us.
It reminds me of the story ofPrometheus.
You familiar with that story?
No, Prometheus was a god whotook fire and brought it to
(34:26):
humanity, the civilization.
And because he took fire fromthe gods, brought it to humanity
, he was punished for it,Punished.
He was punished for Punished.
So he managed to get the fire,got the gift, but he couldn't
enjoy it because that was hispenalty for doing that.
Maus (34:48):
So basically what you're saying is Hank Aaron did all
this work and went through veryrough challenges.
He didn't really get.
He got some pleasure, but we'rethe one that really gets the
heart of it, that really getsthe big, the most pleasure,
because we didn't go do all thatstuff that he went through.
(35:09):
So that's the bitter fruit in abig car, yeah he couldn't enjoy
what he worked for especiallywith that front office thing and
him joining the Braves.
Zettler IV (35:28):
They passed it up, they gave him a nice check and
he was able to get hisbusinesses off the ground and
continue to live after all that.
But he also continued to speakup against Major League
Baseball's hiring practice, andevery time he would speak up
about it he'd get this come on,why are you doing this?
(35:50):
What are you so grumpy for?
They give you a life, they giveyou everything.
Why, why nick the game that'sgiving you so much?
Maus (35:58):
They've also taken away a bunch from.
They gave him death threats.
They gave him a bunch of traumaNot trauma.
They gave him incidents thatweren't Unnecessary.
Zettler IV (36:11):
Right.
Yeah, I don't know if you heardRecently the Negro League's
stats would be included withMajor League Player's stat and
it's been updated and Ty Cobb isno longer the batter with the
highest batting average now.
Who has the highest battingaverage now?
Major League slash, negroLeague history.
Maus (36:33):
You told me that, but it's Josh Gibson.
Zettler IV (36:37):
I'll just be repeating myself over.
I forget who I tell.
I say the same thing all thetime.
But it's Josh Gibson.
I'll just be repeating myselfover.
I forget who I tell.
I say the same thing all thetime.
Yeah, josh Gibson, josh.
And Josh Gibson is a name thatwe've heard in lore.
You know he's known for thisguy who hit this 800-foot home
run.
I don't know what they said.
I don't know.
You know how these storieshappen Hit a home run that still
ain't landed yet.
Hit a home run that still ain'tlanded, yet.
(36:58):
He hit over 800 home runs.
The main thing is he isrepresentative of so many
players that was denied anopportunity to make good money
and exercise their talentbecause of the hue of their skin
.
Josh Gibson is number one, tyCobb number two.
Number three is OscarCharleston, with another name.
(37:19):
So we got so many names offolks who have been denied this
opportunity.
When Hank Aaron speaks out,he's speaking out.
Yeah, he had the fruits.
He's done his thing.
But how many thousands ofpeople were denied?
Maus (37:35):
a bunch of people.
I have a question about theNegro League status.
Do they include, like home runrecords, and are there any
changes on that?
Zettler IV (37:48):
I don't know about here, but the home run record is
still intact.
Barry Lamar Barnes is still thetop at 762, with Hank Aaron
being number two on the list,and this is ongoing.
So as they continue to unearthresearch about this time,
they're going to come up withthese new things.
But yeah, except for Page, hedidn't even get to the major
(38:10):
leagues until I don't know he'slike in his 40s and got people
who played against him in themajor league hailing his
greatness, saying he's the bestpitcher they've ever seen, all
this stuff.
So it's this boom, it's thisthing that we gotta remember in
his 50 year anniversary.
When Jackie Robinson first cameto the league, there was 0%
(38:32):
African American.
When Hank Aaron retired frommajor league baseball, it was at
his peak of African Americanplayers, players.
I think something like 23-24%of the league were
African-American.
Ten years later guess what?
That number was Lower than that.
I think it was something around8-9%, I think, even now.
(38:53):
I think now is something around.
So there has been a declinefrom when Hank Aaron retired
from baseball to now, and theirreason was discovered through
this, in large part through thisseries done by the
aforementioned journalist,terrence Moore, whom full
disclaimer I do know he has beenextremely helpful to my career
(39:17):
as far as journalism.
Nevertheless, he ran a seriesin 1982 entitled Blacks in
Baseball, in which he discoveredthat on Major League Baseball
scouting forums there was acategory for race.
Now you may be wondering what'swrong with that.
There is no category for racein the NBA scouting report or in
(39:37):
the NFL scouting report, butthere's a category for race in
baseball.
Maus (39:42):
Why would they care about that?
Zettler IV (39:44):
You categorize that so you can limit it.
You keep track of it so you cancontrol it.
So that's you know.
That story came out and youknow because they would say well
, black people don't playbaseball anymore because they're
not interested, it's expensiveand they just rather do other
things.
But that's not true.
(40:04):
Why would anybody denythemselves the opportunity to
make millions of dollars in afield where there's no salary
cap?
Maus (40:10):
Ew, that doesn't make sense.
That doesn't make sense, yeah.
Zettler IV (40:15):
You know, the systematic push has been
happening for a while.
Hank Aaron talked about that, Alot of other folks talked about
that and nothing has been doneto change that.
Now you have, you know, morepeople who are more
African-American coaches nowthan there was.
Shout out to Dusty Baker.
Maus (40:33):
There's more Latinos and different people from different
countries.
Zettler IV (40:36):
It's crazy.
George Foster, big Red Machine,kyle Hill and he played for the
Mets.
In his article in his Blacks inBaseball series that Terrence
Moore did, he said he made aprediction.
He said they're bringing inmore Hispanic Latin Americans
because they're cheaper.
And Gary Sheffield saidsomething about that years later
and that was consideredcontroversial.
It's controversial in the sensethat it's a sinister scheme,
(40:59):
but it ain't controversial inthe sense that it's a lie and
it's just one of those things.
As soon as we all come to gripsthat it is what it is, they're
pushing for a certain amount of,I guess they're pushing for a
certain amount of one ratecontrol control of numbers, the
(41:20):
word I kept trying to figure out.
I said I guess it's chromatism.
They want a certain hue and alook of things, because why is
it that it would be beneficialto people to control the numbers
of African Americans in aparticular way?
Maus (41:36):
No real reason, they're just being racist.
Zettler IV (41:39):
But why?
Perhaps if you open thefloodgates for folks to get in,
then certain people will be outof a job.
Whenever you see things likethat, it's generally evidence of
zero-sum mentality.
More of them means less of us,instead of the mentality of more
(42:06):
of them means more talent,better products, more
competition.
Maus (42:14):
What brings in more money for the people, for the owners.
Why would they even do that?
It doesn't make sense for thepeople, for the owners, so why
would they even do that?
It doesn't make sense in thefirst place.
If you have better players thatare having competition that
gives you more money, they'rejust being rich.
Zettler IV (42:32):
So yeah, nba, the Boston Celtics, brett Albeck was
genius enough to realize hey,man, let me just get these black
folks on this team on the courtand we go outrun folks and we
go outplay people and out andjust be better at basketball.
And Celtics established theirdynasty because the rest of the
NBA were too myopic to adapt tothat mindset.
(42:54):
And you see it all throughoutdifferent industries and
different areas.
The movie film industry wassuffering in the 70s and then
you had this stream of blackmovies, many of which are called
black exploitation films, thatcome into theaters and black
folks came to theaters and itsaved the movie industry.
Nbc struggling Before BillCosby's show came on and lifted
(43:18):
their rating.
The thing with Foxby's show cameon and lifted their rating.
The Anthony Foxx before InLiving Color came on and lifted
their ratings.
Martin and all these streamingshows you see this all
throughout just floundering.
Marvel's struggling now, butMarvel's really struggling.
And then Blade came out withWest Snipes starting the titular
character, and Marvel industrysets off.
(43:39):
So I mean, you see this all thetime.
If you bring the talent, theratings will show for itself.
But what happens is when youtry to curtail talent, then you
have a weaker product and youhave obvious claims of
discrimination.
And we are at minute number 44.
Quinn, I wanted to end 44.
Maus (44:00):
Go.
Zettler IV (44:01):
Hey y'all.
Happy 50th anniversary to thehome run king.
He passed away in January of2021, I believe, and his life
continues to serve as a model.
He inspired my fathertremendously.
He inspires me tremendously.
Maus (44:24):
He inspires me tremendously.
Zettler IV (44:26):
And millions of others.
So while I understand I saw hispain of the dignity humanity
stripped from him during hisrecord-breaking chase I also
remember the life that he'sgiven, the dedication to his
craft, the thinking, the focusand the ability to defy ruinous,
(44:53):
hateful opposition.
Rest in peace to Hammerin'Henry Aaron.
Thank you, hello.
Maus (45:56):
Hello, today I will be recording a section of letters
that were written by fans toHank Aaron.
Dear Nigger Aaron, Some blackswe admire and respect, but we
can't tolerate cocky niggerslike you.
(46:16):
Dear Hank Aaron, you are veryfortunate that your ancestors
were brought over to thiscountry, even though they were
slaves.
Now, don't you know that theseslaves had a much better life
over here than they would haveif they had not been brought to
(46:37):
America, than they would have ifthey had not been brought to
America?
Now these natives living inAfrica need your help.
They want you to send themmoney to dig wells, for you see,
by the enclosed paper, thatthey do not have enough water,
(47:00):
that they do not have enoughwater, Knowing that you have
been raking in the money from agood many sources and also
knowing that you can well affordto help these people, your
people also.
If you do want to manage, thengo over to Africa and manage to
(47:21):
dig these wells that are sobadly needed.
They really need you in Africaand you should go by any means.
Some things that make me reallyinspired by Hank Aaron.
I'm inspired by him the way hejust handled all of this
(47:44):
situation.
He was a black man in the 60s,50s, had to deal with all of
this Death threats, deaththreats to his kids.
He still beat the record.
All that that's on a wholenother level.
He wasn't scared.
In his book he talks about assoon as he got in the field
nothing, he shut everything offthat was happening in the world
(48:06):
and he just focused on the field.
That's what he says in hisbooks.
I'm inspired that he stillpushed on even though, like
death threats were sent to him.
He was in Atlanta, a city witha lot of Confederate monuments.
Yeah, that's why I'm inspiredby him.
(48:27):
Rest in peace to Hank Aaron.
Love him.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.